Philip brings on Nathan Danneker to discuss Rachel Maddow's reference to Lord of the Rings as a 'right-wing favorite' and how the conservative label misrepresents the iconic series.

00:00 Introduction

01:13 Learn About the Guest, Nathan Danneker

02:30 What Makes Lord of the Rings Special?

04:56 Fans from A Lot of Different Backgrounds Enjoy Lord of the Rings

05:29 LOTR FAN as a Political Label

07:37 Conservative Values in Lord of the Rings

12:25 Referring to LOTR As Conservative Misses the Point

15:46 Many Things Make Lord of the Rings Great

22:43 Political Insult Makes for a Grave Misrepresentation of the Lore

26:03 Conclusion

Welcome, my lords, to the White City, where you will learn

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more about Middle Earth and discover

differences and similarities between

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The Rings of Power show and Tolkien's

books, and whether Amazon's show,

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episode by episode, is worth watching.

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I'm Philip Dudt your host, and I'll

be joined by Matt Vandevort and

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Mark Schaeffer I hope you enjoy.

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Philip: Hello, everyone.

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Thanks for tuning into

The White City Podcast.

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Uh, today I have with me, Nathan

Danneker, and we're going to be talking

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about something pretty unique to what

we've been, what we've ever talked to

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him before in The White City Podcast.

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And it's going to kind of revolve

around what, you know, what makes Lord

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of the Rings meaningful and how uh

you know, kind of like, what's in a

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sense, what do people get out of it?

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Yeah, so Nathan.

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I guess some questions I have are like,

how'd you get interested in Lord of the

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Rings and things like, did you see the

movies first or read the books first?

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And yeah.

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Nathan Danneker: So.

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It was a long, long time ago,

um, probably elementary school.

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I do not remember if I read

The Hobbit or the series first.

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but definitely I was a, I was a

middle schooler around that time when

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the Peter Jackson series came out.

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So that was my main introduction.

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There were several times that we would

have just movie nights of just watching

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Lord of the Rings extended cut, obviously,

cause that's the only correct one.

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Philip: Right, right.

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Yeah.

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Nathan Danneker: But yeah, I

do not, I believe I probably

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read some of the books first.

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I mean, they're massive books, so

especially for middle schoolers like

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like me, I don't think I finished

them before I watched the movie.

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But I definitely, definitely would

rewatch them everything else.

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And then after the movie, I definitely

got into more of the, I was more

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curious about the other stuff.

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So the library only had The Hobbit, so

I read The Hobbit and The Silmarillion.

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So I've read those two, I've not

read of the, any of the other stuff.

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I I'm going off of very long-term

memory, cause I think the last time I

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read any of these books was college.

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Philip: Yeah.

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Nathan Danneker: So, if I,

if I get anything wrong,

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you feel free to correct me.

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Philip: Oh, Okay.

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Yeah.

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I'll try to, try to be on top of it.

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Yeah.

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So when you think about Lord of the Rings

and like, what really makes you like

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interested in it or like a fan of it?

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Like, kinda like, describe that,

like, is it like characters or a

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specific, like, things about like, oh,

all the all the mythology it's based

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off of, or those kinds of things.

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Nathan Danneker: I think as a kid, I

just, mostly, I just liked the, because

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especially with the movies, it was

like, they did such a good job with

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representing everything, the epic battles

and everything else was like, you know,

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as a young boy, that's, that's what I got.

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And that's what attracts

you to this stuff.

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You like the big, big monsters,

especially the mûmakil.

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Philip: Yeah.

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Nathan Danneker: Those are still...

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The mûmakil in those movies are

probably some of my favorite,

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huge monsters I've ever seen.

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And so that's probably

what drew me in initially.

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What kept me around was just more

of the, like the, the character

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aspect of it and everything else.

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Some of my favorite parts was

in the book when Samwise is

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taking Frodo up the mountain.

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I forget exactly how he describes it,

but like basically Sam comes to the

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point where he's like, I I've given up.

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But I've given up so hard

that I'm going to keep going.

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And he's like, I am so

done with this trip.

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We're going to finish this.

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Um, And so I just liked that idea of like,

you know, people persevering through crazy

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experiences, everything out and still like

pushing through to get everything done.

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And, definitely, especially in The

Silmarillion was actually what kind

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of kept me in everything else, because

like, like reading about, the elves

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and like, they're like, especially

with Feanor and his family, like

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their arrogance and everything else,

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and that's like, you know, oh, Hey,

this, you know, you know, that's,

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it's a very relatable character and

everything else of like, he was a

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master at what he did and he got too

stuck up and in what he could do.

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And it bit him.

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And so just like relating to that

and everything else and like.

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Just like the conflict

and everything else.

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Getting into that.

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So that's really what's cool.

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I some of the books, some of the

stories in The Silmarillion are weird.

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So that one was like, why

did Tolkien write this?.

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but overall I liked it.

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And the series, the trilogy and the

Hobbit definitely, definitely are good.

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I did watch the, I did watch The

Hobbit, the Peter Jackson, Hobbit films.

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All three of them.

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I would say it probably

could have been two.

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But those are still fine films.

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Philip: Yeah, that's cool.

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Yeah, I think, I mean, what's

neat about Lord of the Rings is

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it can be attractive to anybody.

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Nathan Danneker: Yes.

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Philip: Not just.

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Not just like, you know, crazy nerds who

are just going to be you know, laying on

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their beds all day or you know what not.

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I know people who all across the board,

like Lord of the Rings, And, liberal

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or not like, and that's probably

like where we're getting kind of be

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talking about like politics wise.

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Nathan Danneker: Because it's

politics season in America and we

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need to throw more gas on the fire.

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Philip: Yes.

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It's true.

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It's true.

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So.

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Just to kind of like, dive into this.

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So for anybody who doesn't know.

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It kind of might be a little, a

little subtle unless you're really

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been looking for it, and you're

really like a Lord of the Rings fan.

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During the Republican National Convention,

there was somebody from MSNBC there,

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her name's Rachel Maddow, just to try

to get all the facts straight here.

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And she was from MSNBC during the,

you know, during the convention.

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And, this is a quote from her that

the "Lord of the Rings is a sort of

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favorite cosmos for naming things

and cultural references for a lot

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of far-right and alt-right figures,

both in Europe and the United States.

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Peter Thiel names, all of these things

after Tolkien figures in places like

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his company, Palantir for example."

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So, Peter Thiel is like a mentor

in a way to who is like now,

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like the Republican, like.

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vice-president.

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So JD Vance also named his

firm after an Elven ring Narya.

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So, I think the big thing with this

is probably that because JD Vance

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is vice-president and he's, you know

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Nathan Danneker: Vice president candidate.

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Philip: Vice-president candidate, right.

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Yeah.

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That's true.

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Let's make that straight.

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Yeah.

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this is not a politics podcast.

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Nathan Danneker: Obviously.

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Philip: But, anyways, so, you know,

him being conservative and now also

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like a Lord of the Rings lover.

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So to speak, I think that was

just one thing that Rachel

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Maddow was trying to fire at him.

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So.

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I guess the thing is, is like,

and it's kind of like what I was

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referring to earlier about what to

you made like Lord of the Rings?

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Like so great.

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And.

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What.

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Like what brought you the interest there?

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Because Rachel Maddow, I think's trying

to connect there is that, oh, Lord of

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the Rings is just a right wing favorite.

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And.

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So then like, If you, if you hear that,

like what, what does does that, I guess.

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Does that make sense?

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Is that something that is like,

Something that can be applied

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like to conservativism, you

know, is Lord of the Rings.

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Does that make, does that make sense?

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I guess,

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Nathan Danneker: I think.

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It's it's the hard part is, people

will, especially in political season,

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they will attack anything they can,

if they think they can get an edge.

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So, obviously if they're going to attack

a lot of different other things and

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everything else is probably just one thing

that they brought up in everything else.

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So I think for the right wing side, um,

there's a lot of things, at least with,

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once again, I'm speaking from an American,

I don't know the European right-wing

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side or any of the other countries.

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But there's definitely, there's definitely

aspects of talking story that would appeal

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to a traditional right-winger like, you

know, that there's a good and bad side.

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There's, you know, you're trying

to protect your own lands.

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There's a respect for good authority,

and at the same time, like, If business

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is doing good, you're doing good,

like in the Shire and everything

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else, like, you know, people were

selling, buying, and it's like, it's

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a happy place and everything else.

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And like, you know, like kind of the idea

of the Shire would be like, you know,

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that's, that's the idea of a oh, happy

place that the right-wing would people...

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But also at the same time, there's

other stuff in Tolkien that I think.

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current modern American

right-wingers would probably not

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jive with as much, for example, the

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Philip: okay.

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Nathan Danneker: And one thing I was

thinking of was like the, the forest and

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the Ents and them trying to protect the

forest from everybody using the forest.

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Whereas like, especially.

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I feel like in our current age,

there's a lot of right-wingers

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that want to use all of our natural

resources as much as possible and

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not try to conserve everything.

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Just use it.

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Which is definitely much more of

like a, Saruman thing, which was

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not a good, not as a good one.

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Philip: Right.

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Nathan Danneker: And there's,

speaking of the one, which was

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interesting, which was the Palantir.

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The interesting thing was the

Palantir was, it was good as

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long as the source was good.

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But once Sauron captured the source,

all the other Palantir got corrupted.

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So that's just a, you know, A wary...

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I don't know if Peter Thiel, I don't know

him that much, but I just curious if, if

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he knew that story of like, you know, Hey,

do you, do you have your source right?

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Make sure your source is right, because

if you're, you know, if the source

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is wrong and you're spreading out,

like all the other Palantir then, you

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know, you're just spreading more bad.

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So.

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Yeah.

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yeah.

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Philip: So what is he really doing?

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Nathan Danneker: I don't know.

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As I said I've, I've never, yeah.

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I don't really follow politics much.

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Yeah.

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But I definitely think there's

like aspects of everything

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that that can be definitely,

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good.

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Like definitely with you, you

know, family, and Tolkien,

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like family is very important.

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You know, People, you honor

your family and everything else.

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People honor,

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you know, the parents are

like that and everything else.

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In most cases, except where I

guess, in the movies with Arwen and,

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I'm blanking on his name.

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Philip: Elrond.

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Nathan Danneker: Yes.

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That's the only one where you

can kind of see like conflict.

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Philip: Okay.

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Nathan Danneker: But I forget if

that's really there in the books.

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I guess some sort of, because El

Elrond did not want Arwin falling in

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love with Aragorn, but it happened.

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Philip: Right.

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Nathan Danneker: So.

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There's like, there's like that where

it's like, you know, the, the family's

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respected and everything else, but

also the same thing, the same thing

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with like, you know, Aragorn and Arwen.

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Like Aragorn, didn't like, you know,

try to force her hand or anything like.

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Until, she was ready to admit,

and you're like ready to

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accept him and everything else.

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Then, then they got married.

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So like that is definitely much more of

a conservative idea of like, you know.

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You wait.

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And then also just the idea of like

having, A A, like a strong defense of

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your lands and everything else, like,

which is the big thing of like you

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know what happens in Gondor and Rohan

of like, you know, they're protecting

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their lands and everything else.

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And also the idea of, this is the

one thing I come out, especially

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now is, when Eomir in the movies.

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like he's going around and hunting the

orcs and Uruk-hai and everything else.

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And his dad is, you know, still

effected by Grim Tongue and like

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I'm going to protect my land

to get, and nobody else does.

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It's like,

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Philip: Uncle.

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Nathan Danneker: Yeah.

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Oh yeah, his uncle..

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Um, Yes.

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Thank you.

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Um, But like, you know, that's a very

much a current American right-wing

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thing of like, you know, if nobody

else is going to protect my land,

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I'm going to put back my land.

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Yeah.

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So, yeah.

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Philip: Right.

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Very, some very traditional values there.

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Nathan Danneker: Yes.

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Philip: And I mean,

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I think all a lot of people would

consider like all these things very good

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that's coming out of Lord of the Rings.

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You know, a lot of the a

lot of the major themes.

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Just like some big takeaways there.

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You know, like friendship,

you know, leadership.

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Those kinds of things.

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and I think are pretty big.

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in the storyline.

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And all.

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So one thing that I've kind of

thought about with all of this is.

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and you tell me your sense of this

too, is that like, is it like calling,

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like Lord of the Rings even like

conservative, or even like right

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wing, I think like misses the point.

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So I think like, because it's

It's like, Not just like that,

272

that it necessarily would be like

bringing it, making it political.

273

But also that it's,

274

it's kind of causing it to be, kind of

in a box of like, oh, like we love it

275

because it's conservative but it's like,

I feel like there is a lot more behind

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it than just, Hey, this is conservative

and it has conservative values.

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Which yeah, like, may be true.

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but.

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Yeah.

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Nathan Danneker: Yeah, I

definitely would say the values.

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I mean, obviously Tolkien was

a, a Christian, so he had values

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that the conservatives in at least

America, somewhat uphold still.

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I mean, obviously things have changed

in the past, you know, like 70

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years since Tolkien wrote the books.

285

But the, the big thing with, I would say

with Tolkien is like, you know, it's,

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it's like good stuff that everybody would

like to, like I think, both liberals and

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conservatives are like, Hey, you know,

you want good friends, that'll stick by

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you and through, up through everything.

289

Like both of them will agree like,

yeah, we want things, you know, we

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want allies that will stick with us.

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And I think, at both times,

like, I think both liberals and

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conservatives would agree that one

of the things that, comes up is when.

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I remember in the, the second

movie when, Theoden asked

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where Gondor is.

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And then in the third movie,

the beacons get lit and Gondor

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still hasn't done anything.

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But Theodin's like, No, I'm, I'm going

to be the better person and honor the,

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the Alliance and go and help them.

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And like, I think that was definitely

something that both the liberals

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and conservatives would agree that

that is something that's good.

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Philip: Right.

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Nathan Danneker: It was like, I'm going

to honor the agreement I made, and stick

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to my, stick to the word that we gave.

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And so some, some things are like that.

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There's, there's other things.

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I mean, as I said, like,

traditional values, like

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definitely traditional values.

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I mean, like if, Like I said,

is that some of the stories

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in The Silmarillion are wild.

310

so like, that's definitely like,

you know, oh, Hey, it's a bog

311

standard thing and everything else.

312

It's like, yeah.

313

It's, that's because Tolkien's gotten

so popular, it's like, You know.

314

It's, it's.

315

I've, I've heard other people complain

about Tolkien being like, Tolkien is so

316

popular it's ruining our fandom because

we can't tell different stories because

317

everyone assumes it's like Tolkien..

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Not how we want to say it.

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Philip: Right.

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Nathan Danneker: And so it's like,

that's, the problem is like, when

321

Tolkien's the standard, it's like,

you know, when you want to rebel, you

322

say, Oh, you know, normally when you

want to rebel, you say, it's, that's

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the conservative old fogy stuff.

324

The reason why it's, you know, that

Tolkien stuck around for so long.

325

Is like, it's because

the story speaks to us.

326

Like after all these years, And so.

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And then some people that's just not

comfortable for them, is like having

328

something that speaks to them, that long,

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Philip: Hmm.

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Nathan Danneker: So.

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Philip: Interesting it has to be,

it has to be something like new.

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Nathan Danneker: Yes.

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Philip: And like modern in a sense maybe.

334

Yeah.

335

Yeah.

336

Yeah No that's good.

337

Yeah, I can definitely agree.

338

I think.

339

I think one thing that like, we've

also talked about like, in in previous

340

episodes is how, like Lord of the

Rings, Middle-earth, you know, all those

341

stories, are made great by more than

just like one, like one thing, right?

342

It's not just like, mythology or

history or, you know, or like the

343

worldview, Christian worldview, but

it's like all those things connected.

344

And like some of those things, that

make it so good aren't even like,

345

There are some of those.

346

Yeah.

347

Some of the things that make it

so good, you can't even connect to

348

like, necessarily like Christian

values in a sense, right?

349

Because like Tolkien was

really good at languages, right?

350

Nathan Danneker: Yeah.

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Philip: Because that's like

that was like his thing.

352

And the only reason why the Lord of the

rings was made was because he like made

353

up his own languages and was like, Hey, I

want like, I want somebody to speak this.

354

I'm going to create my own world to

like, speak these languages, you know?

355

And that's like, what, one of the

things that makes it so great.

356

And it has nothing to do

with like politics or like

357

Nathan Danneker: Yeah.

358

Philip: I mean, even with like faith.

359

But again, like the, all those different

things too, that make it so great.

360

And that's just one thing.

361

Nathan Danneker: Yeah.

362

And also, I mean, I, I don't know the

history, but I know him and CS Lewis were

363

obviously very close friends, and I wonder

how much of, I don't know the timeline,

364

but I'm wondering how much of seeing C.S.

365

Lewis's Chronicles of Narnia

taking off got him the idea of

366

like, Oh, I should create my own

world, and so kind of that idea.

367

Because I mean like, you know, when,

when it's two creative people together,

368

you tend to rub off on each other.

369

I've experienced that with other hobbies

and everything else and other fandoms.

370

Whereas like one person gets

super excited about something

371

and it just kind of rubs off.

372

And, so.

373

Yeah.

374

But yeah, I definitely would agree

that like a lot of the themes are

375

like, are generally just what humans

approve of, you know, in the story.

376

Like wherever you go in the world, you

will, you find people who, you know,

377

they want people who they can trust.

378

They want people who they can rely on.

379

They wanted to fight back against

whatever they consider evil people.

380

You know, people have different

things of what are evil, but

381

they want to fight against evil.

382

You know, they want evil not to win.

383

And so.

384

And then they, you know, they celebrate

the people who do you know, if they

385

can't do it themselves, they celebrate

the people who do do it for them.

386

So.

387

And this is just kind of

like universal human-ness.

388

Philip: Right.

389

Nathan Danneker: So

390

Philip: Yeah.

391

What's also interesting is like going into

the second season for The Rings of Power

392

show, it's kind of a side note, but, I was

really actually pretty like, excited about

393

the trailer, like the official trailer.

394

When it was shown I saw the ents.

395

I saw, I think there was like,

was there a troll in there?

396

I can't remember.

397

And, uh, there are some other things.

398

Tom Bombadil is going to be in it.

399

Nathan Danneker: Okay.

400

Philip: So

401

Nathan Danneker: Is this the

first time he's on screen?

402

Because.

403

Philip: Yes.

404

Nathan Danneker: Okay.

405

Philip: Yes.

406

So some of those things I'm like, wow,

this is going to be great, you know.

407

But then listening to.

408

Listening to the actors, like, and

some of the clips from like the

409

Comic-Con, which is, I guess they

released the trailer at the Comic-Con.

410

It was just like, okay.

411

It almost seemed like they were trying to

bring it back to like a modern setting.

412

And talk about the characters in kind

of like, in more like modern terms.

413

And I'm like, oh, into like how the

way they're feeling or the way that

414

like, trying to express themselves.

415

And.

416

ya know, And it was, it does seemed

less of a, Oh, like I'm, I'm like this

417

character in this role, trying to be in

this world, and, and then from there,

418

like, you know, expressing kind of

like how this character would talk or

419

relate to other people in the world.

420

Not necessarily based off of like,

like our values today, necessarily.

421

Nathan Danneker: Yeah, it's yeah, I

mean, humans have done that all the time.

422

I mean, there's, there's plenty of

stories where people take a historical

423

story and they'll spin it to match

whatever they're trying to push in

424

in current modern times, even though

this, the, you know, it may not

425

exactly fit what they're saying though.

426

But you know, history only tells you

so much, same thing with Tolkien.

427

I mean, Tolkien did write a

lot, but he only had so much.

428

And so it's like, you can always,

you know, and, and also at the

429

same time, people can just take

whatever they want and just go with

430

whatever they want to go with it.

431

I have not watched as is also on the side

note, I've not watched the uh, season one.

432

I maybe, maybe we'll see.

433

But Amazon ruined another one of

my fandoms and, I did not trust

434

them with Lord of the Rings.

435

So it was like, I'm not

going to be disappointed.

436

Um, so.

437

Philip: Yeah..

438

Wait wait you said, oh,

you said another one was...

439

Nathan Danneker: Another one.

440

Yeah.

441

Philip: Wheel of Time?

442

Nathan Danneker: Yes.

443

Philip: Oh yeah, okay.

444

Yes.

445

I haven't seen it at all.

446

Nathan Danneker: Yea no, no.

447

Don't don't.

448

yeah, it's.

449

Yeah, I, I didn't, I didn't realize it,

but this is a sidebar for real time.

450

Apparently one of the actors left mid

season because he was so frustrated with

451

the writers and the way they were going.

452

And I was like, it was, it was

a very crucial, main character.

453

And I was like, why,

why is this happening?

454

And then I heard about it and

I was like, oh no, Oh, no!

455

So hopefully that doesn't

happen for Rings of Power.

456

I hope that that does happen.

457

Hopefully they do treat it right, and

hopefully they heard the feedback and,

458

you know, they they tell a good story.

459

Because, you know, there's definitely

some times like, you know, sometimes

460

there's there's, uh, I mean, also the

other thing is like, you're trying

461

to tell a story in eight episodes.

462

And there's going to be things

where you're going to leave it out.

463

I mean, I remember the famous one.

464

I think it was the, I think it was

the Zack Snyder Justice League or

465

like the original cut that went

to cinema was panned everywhere.

466

And then the release, the, I think

it was called, they called it the

467

Snyder Cut, which is like an extra

40 minutes of like extra stuff that

468

they had to cut out because they

needed to get down to it cinematically

469

and it, like, it changed the movie.

470

And it's like, you know, that could be

the same thing with what the show is like,

471

oh, Hey, this is what we had to do, but

we have to get it into eight episodes,

472

and we, we just, we can't make a ninth.

473

We would love to make

a ninth, but we can't.

474

So.

475

Yeah, we got cut things.

476

Yeah.

477

So..

478

Yeah

479

Philip: Interesting.

480

Nathan Danneker: So, yeah, so, and

that's, that's also the way of like,

481

you know, same thing with, the other

stuff is like, you could, you could see.

482

You could see that where,

483

Like, you know, People want to

tell something and everything

484

else, or you could say.

485

I mean, I know also at the

same time, like if people.

486

The other, the other thing I will

say is, um, kind of going back to

487

like the conservative thing is like,

you know, people having in mind like

488

what they think Lord of the Rings is.

489

And if whatever somebody else thinks

of it or somebody else thinks of it

490

is not exactly what they think of it.

491

They think they're, you know, impinging

on the their holy like the right white

492

way to think about Lord of the rings

and you are all wrong and I'm going

493

to call you whatever my preferred,

you know, Uh, derogatory slur is.

494

Philip: Yeah.

495

Nathan Danneker: And so like, you know,

you know, that could also be the way

496

of like, you know, I'm trying to think

of a creative way to insult somebody,

497

so I'm going to insult, their fandom.

498

And it's like, Yeah,

that's, that's really just.

499

whatever.

500

I don't like it.

501

But we're in political

season, so it is what it is.

502

It's sad.

503

Philip: It is sad.

504

And, you know, it's, it's one of

those things hopefully to where.

505

I, I listened to a couple of like

podcasts, like making some comments on it.

506

You just hope that nobody then who

like, kind of finds out about Lord

507

of the Rings, like for the first time

or something and is like, oh, well

508

that's an all like right wing thing.

509

I don't want to like.

510

I don't want to watch that.

511

You know.

512

So it's just, it's a misrepresentation.

513

Nathan Danneker: Yeah.

514

Philip: A huge misrepresentation..

515

Yeah.

516

It's, It's, It's a

517

Nathan Danneker: Yeah, definitely.

518

It's yeah.

519

Yeah.

520

It's I would say it's.

521

I would say of the two American,

like it's not either an American

522

conservative or American liberal.

523

It is something completely different.

524

I mean, obviously Tolkien was

British, so obviously he's also coming

525

from a different Western culture.

526

Philip: Yeah.

527

Nathan Danneker: So he would have, uh, I

mean also, and he was, once again, grew

528

up during the World War, uh, was alive

during the world wars and everything else.

529

So that would change his perspective

on everything and everything else.

530

Whereas I imagine a lot of us,

unless oh, at least in America,

531

I think the only, the only war

you would probably be in would be

532

the Iraqi or Afghanistan veterans.

533

And even then there wasn't like, there

wasn't as many people who were affected

534

as in the world wars with Britain.

535

Philip: Right

536

Nathan Danneker: Britain, like

the whole country was affected.

537

Nobody was not.

538

Whereas.

539

You know, in America, with our latest,

those two latest conflicts, like, you

540

know, some people weren't effected at all.

541

Philip: Right

542

Nathan Danneker: You saw the headlines,

but you were like, I don't know this

543

person, so it's sad that they died,

but I, I can only be that much sad.

544

Like, I don't know anything.

545

Whereas like with Britain, it's like, No.

546

I know that that per that boy was

my, my neighbor's son or something.

547

Which was like the whole

different experience.

548

Philip: Right?

549

I know, Yeah.

550

That was something that was definitely

a very, very much like a crucial

551

impact on a lot of people, and you

can tell that with Tolkien as well.

552

Yeah.

553

In, uh, his life.

554

but.

555

Yeah, I think like, part of that

too, is why, what makes like Lord of

556

the Rings so great is that Tolkien

is drawing from his experiences.

557

You know, things that he really enjoyed,

like history and what not and, how

558

that comes through on his writings.

559

Yeah.

560

Nathan Danneker: And also, also he saw in

both world wars, he saw that eventually

561

the, the evil, you know, the evil lost.

562

But also at the same time, like kind of

what they, what he was talking about with

563

The Silmarillion and like also at the

same time, there's people on the good

564

side who are also like not super holy.

565

Like, I mean, you know.

566

Like obviously people

like, Morgoth is evil.

567

But Feanor, and his sons and the elves who

go to fight 'em are not that much better.

568

So, yeah.

569

so yeah.

570

So it's like he understood the reality,

probably from seeing the wars, like,

571

you know, conflict just, it's just bad.

572

It just, it hurts everything.

573

And then those who can come out

of the conflict and still rule

574

righteously, kind of like, you know,

what Aragorn and the other people

575

did at the end of the trilogy.

576

Philip: Yeah.

577

Nathan Danneker: Those are

the people you should admire.

578

Philip: Right.

579

Yeah.

580

Well, Thanks Nathan for

coming on and giving your, ya

581

know, 2 cents on everything.

582

Really appreciate it.

583

Nice to have a different

face every once in a while.

584

Nathan Danneker: I may get

inspired to watch season one.

585

So it can be on your season two reviews.

586

Philip: Hey man.

587

Yeah, that'd be great.

588

Yeah.

589

It's awesome.

590

Well, thanks everyone for tuning

in and, uh, hope to catch you

591

guys for our a next review.

592

of tr the official trailer for the uh,

second season of The Rings of Power.

593

Alrighty.

594

Philip Outro: Thanks for

visiting the White City.

595

Before you leave, please subscribe

to our podcast and check us out

596

at thewhitecitypodcast.com or

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597

the tag @thewhitecitypodcast