Listening note

This conversation explores what happens after we begin to understand ourselves.

Not the dramatic transformations.

Not the before-and-after stories.

But the quieter shifts that change how we think, lead, communicate and respond.

As you listen, notice the moments that feel familiar.

The patterns you recognise.

The parts of yourself that may simply be waiting to be seen.

Episode overview

Personal growth is often portrayed as something dramatic—a breakthrough moment that changes everything overnight. Yet for many women, growth is far quieter than that.

It arrives in small moments of awareness. In choosing a different response. In recognising an old pattern before it takes over. In discovering that who you've always been may have been hidden beneath years of adaptation rather than waiting to be created.

In this bonus episode, Ros sits down with leadership coach Kim Dunlop to explore what has stayed with her since completing the Women's Leader Archetypes Accreditation several years ago. Together they reflect on the subtle ways our leadership evolves once we have language for our patterns—and why genuine growth is often less about becoming someone new and more about coming home to ourselves.

The conversation explores the invisible habits many women carry into leadership: over-responsibility, people-pleasing, avoiding conflict, second-guessing ourselves, and trying to fit someone else's idea of what a leader should look like. Rather than viewing these as flaws, Ros and Kim discuss how many of these behaviours began as intelligent adaptations—responses that once kept us safe but may now be limiting our influence.

Together they explore the value of recognising both our empowered and shadow leadership patterns, the importance of flexibility rather than fixed identity, and why authentic leadership is less about finding the "right" personality and more about intentionally choosing how we show up in each situation.

Along the way they discuss practical strategies for navigating difficult conversations, using simple scripts when emotions take over, recognising nervous system responses in real time, and giving ourselves permission to pause before reacting.

Ultimately, this is a conversation about self-awareness, compassion and choice.

Because leadership isn't about wearing one identity forever.

It's about knowing which jacket serves you today—and having the confidence to choose it intentionally.

In this episode

• Why personal growth is often quieter than we expect
• The difference between identity and adaptation
• Understanding over-responsibility and where it begins
• How the Women's Leader Archetypes create language for self-awareness
• Why flexibility is more powerful than labelling ourselves
• Practical scripts for navigating difficult workplace conversations
• Recognising nervous system responses before they drive our behaviour
• What becomes possible when we stop trying to become someone else and start leading as ourselves

Reflection prompts

• Which leadership "jacket" do you find yourself wearing most often—and is it still serving you?
• What responsibility are you carrying today that may not actually belong to you?
• When was the last time you paused before reacting and chose a different response?
• If you trusted yourself a little more, how might you show up differently tomorrow?

There's nothing to fix here.

Only patterns to recognise.

Kim Dunlop can be found on LinkedIn here: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kim-dunlop-111ab989/

What's next

🎧 Next episode: Season Three is coming.

The next chapter of The Archetype Effect shifts from understanding ourselves to navigating the systems around us. We'll explore influence, political intelligence, organisational dynamics and how women can lead with greater clarity, confidence and impact without compromising who they are.

Want to see the frameworks being discussed?

I've published a collection of short explainer videos that walk through the leadership models and archetypal dynamics explored throughout this podcast, including the Women's Leader Archetypes.

👉 https://www.youtube.com/@ArchetypeEffectPodcast

These videos are designed to complement the podcast by providing a visual guide to the concepts we explore in each episode.

Stay connected

Follow The Archetype Effect for conversations on feminine leadership, power, authority and authentic influence.

Instagram: @archetypeeffectpodcast

Website: https://www.womensleaderarchetypes.com.au

Working with organisations

This work is also delivered through leadership development, executive coaching and organisational consulting with leaders and teams across Australia through Shaping Change.

Learn more at:

https://www.shapingchange.com.au

[00:00:23] Ros Cardinal: Welcome back to The Archetype Effect. Today I'm joined by Kim Dunlop, who completed the Women's Leader Archetype Accreditation a couple of years ago, and we've spent time together since then. We've worked together and developed this wonderful partnership, so I'm really excited to introduce Kim to you.

[00:01:01] And I think that many women feel like personal growth needs to be something really massive, that they need to be able to hang their hat on it and go, "See? I've changed." But it doesn't have to be that way for people. I don't think that's how it works for a lot of us. I think growth is often quieter.

[00:01:30] Kim Dunlop: Aw, Ros, what a beautiful introduction. Thank you so much for being, you know, a part of this.

[00:01:46] Kim Dunlop: So where do I start? A little bit of background. Um, my background has been in corporate property for many years. However, my passion, Ros, which where you and I align so well, is, women leadership.

[00:02:26] Mm. And whilst I still do a bit of property work yeah, it's something that, um, I've been noticing as well is the changes and the little changes as well that I've been noticing in myself as I, step through the leadership landscape. And it's been a really interesting piece from looking at corporates to looking at individuals which w- working in these working environments, understanding where

[00:03:12] Ros Cardinal: What conversations do you seem to find yourself having over and over again? Are we rehashing old ground a lot or are we really starting to move forward?

[00:03:24] I feel, and what I'm seeing and noticing as well from a lot of people is- It's almost like they're stuck in the content or stuck in the, um, the content of the story of who did what. There's kind of like this blame game of some sort that's going on within the corporate environment. And it's a really interesting piece because it's almost like people are not doing their job so we're going to blame that other person.

[00:04:18] Whether we're sitting in the shadow archetypes or whether or not we're sitting in the sovereign, being the more empowered feminine. And so- ... I feel the biggest piece which is really so important for us to really look at and dive into more is around that how do we change that where we actually are empowering?

[00:04:50] Ros Cardinal: And that's so important because you do find, I've noticed the same thing in corporates too, is that blaming but also denial, that piece of even when they've asked for feedback you'll get the, "No, that's not happening. It's not how it works around here." And then you get people who are lower down the hierarchy who give up giving feedback. They've got great ideas, they've got thoughts, they've got opinions about things, they want to give feedback, they want to be heard. Particularly younger generations want to be heard and they're just not being.

[00:05:53] Kim Dunlop: I love that, Ros. And it kind of then leads on to one of your shadow archetypes, which is the hermit. So if someone was sitting in the hermit and, they're really avoiding that whole piece, and not actually giving feedback, it's kind of building up within their system. And we're not creating, like, a more systemic way of thinking.

[00:06:34] So there's something in that around going, okay, why is that important for that person to be seen? And this is probably one of the things that I really loved about your archetypes, was, it was knowing when you are actually sitting in that position. And when you're sitting in that leadership style and, you know, what style are you wearing today you can then become aware of how you show up, say, for a meeting or how you show up for a boardroom session.

[00:07:38] Ros Cardinal: Absolutely. I love the way you say, "What style are you wearing today?" And that ties in really, really well with what suits you. Because that's what this is about. It's about flexibility of style. That's the whole point of the model is the flexibility. It's around choosing the right style at the right time with the right people for the right reasons.

[00:08:17] And then our opportunity to change things, everything narrows, our depth of response, our access to things. And it does feel normal. I talked about this in the last episode of the, second season, which is about it becomes personality. We start to feel this is who I am. I'm just a perfectionist.

[00:08:52] Kim Dunlop: Yeah. And I love that you shared the word flexibility, Ros, 'cause that was- actually something that I was going to acknowledge with, um, the archetypes and the work that you've created is for me personally, I really noticed that when I started doing the archetypes straight off. There was that flexibility of going, okay- Who is my audience? What type of archetype am I showing up as, and what are the other people in that environment showing up as as well? Mm. And so it was really good to kind of look at that and going, "Should I be choosing a different archetype?" But there's that, probably that open-mindedness that I have within that space- and probably from doing this work as well, because I am so passionate about it, that it doesn't have to become our identity. It's not our label you know? Having the- label of "I'm, a hermit today." Yeah. We can kind of take that label off and we can take that label off and go, we can hand it to someone else.

[00:10:12] I love it. Yeah. So when you did your own profile, 'cause everybody who goes through the accreditation does their own profile was there anything in there that surprised you about your profile? So funny. I don't know if you remember, but I was a bit of a mixed bag. That's right. And I, and it kind of didn't surprise me, Ros- because I feel like I've got this right brain/left brain type scenario that's always going on. So I went, "I bet you it comes out and it's not clear." So I was kind of a good candidate in some ways to kind of show that what you were talking about before and what you're, were sharing was we don't have to become that identity.

[00:11:09] Ros Cardinal: Even though for some people they might come out really strongly as a particular type, like you say, they're a really strong wise woman and perhaps weaker on the other ones, it's, it's that widening of the options. Like y- yes, you're a wise woman, that's amazing, but there's going to be times when you need tribe builder. There's going to be times when you need your warrior to step up, and how you're actually able to access those and bring them into your world in a way that's, that adds value and makes sense to you. So it's been a little while, it's been a couple of years I think since you did your accreditation.

[00:11:48] Kim Dunlop: Yeah, I love that question, and it's funny, I've been getting a bit passionate lately- but and so as I've been getting passionate I feel like I've been in the warrior- ... the warrior woman. Um, and yeah, and I kind of feel really empowered in that way, you know? And so I've been noticing that. And then other times I've gone quieter and, I've been sitting sort of in the wise woman piece. So I have actually been associating those names- Mm ... to how I've been showing up in certain ways. So yeah, it's been quite a little bit of a chuckle for me.

[00:12:32] It was about attaching language to it so we've got a way of describing it so we can shortcut it. So rather than thinking to ourselves, "I'm doing all of these things," you can just go, "Oh yeah, that's the wise woman."

[00:12:55] Kim Dunlop: Probably the, the biggest piece with the model, , and what you've created, which I thought was just absolutely phenomenal, was having the four archetypes, the empowered archetypes, and then having the four shadows.

[00:13:30] And it was like she's the pinnacle. And it was like this achiever type, person within me, but then I went, "Okay, the shadow archetype is the tyrant," you know? So it's like, and it's that competitive, so you could get really competitive in that respect. And so I kind of went, "Okay, I can see those qualities coming out when I'm, say, under stress a little bit," you know?

[00:14:13] Ros Cardinal: Thank you. Now, one of the things that we've been exploring through this season of the archetypes is about growth isn't necessarily or not always about becoming someone better. Sometimes it's just simply becoming more of yourself. So when you think about, say, your own personal journey over the last few years, do you think you've really changed, or do you think you've just understood yourself better?

[00:15:20] And so I would sort of sit back a lot and really kind of not bring that whole energy forward. And so that's ... something that I've really noticed, that I'm coming home to that more and more.

[00:16:11] Kim Dunlop: Yes, I do agree. I actually really agree, Ros. I do feel like that those lines are blurred, and they have been blurred for quite some time.

[00:17:28] Ros Cardinal: Yeah. Let's stop being so serious and start learning to laugh at ourselves a bit. And it's interesting, isn't it, this constant push/pull of women trying to find that sweet spot. So what becomes possible, in your experience with the women that you coach, when they stop fighting themselves and just go, maybe they discovered it through the archetypes or through some other work that you've done, when they go, "Actually, I believe I can be authentically myself and achieve all the things I want to achieve, and just show up the way that I want to show up." What have you seen become possible for women?

[00:18:20] Which is pretty much, I don't know whether it's, I don't know whether it's just a feminine thing. And I will say this, um, that I do feel like, men have this quality as well. However, there's this nurturing quality within women, right? That we feel that we have to be over responsible for other people, for feeling that they need to feel good about themselves, that we actually forget about ourselves.

[00:19:31] Ros Cardinal: It's become, like I said, part of the identity, part of their personality. They sort of can't separate what they do from who they are. Now, obviously without breaching confidentiality what are some of the patterns that you notice showing up maybe most often for the women that you work with? So things like what do women struggle with the most? What sort of conversations do you find yourself having over and over again but with different women each time, or maybe the same women each time? What themes are you seeing, and what do you think women are probably underestimating about themselves?

[00:20:45] Ros Cardinal: Yeah. And where do you see women carrying too much? So I love the concept of over-responsibility, and I have talked about that on the podcast. And I remember you, I think it was you who was probably the very first person who actually used that phrase. I knew what I was trying to say, but you were the first one who said to me, "over-responsibility." I went, "That's a great word. I'm going to hang onto that." And I have used that, so thank you. But when we think about over-responsibility women generally do carry too much. They carry more than their fair share. So with the women that you work with, what are you seeing as the driver underneath that? Are we talking perfectionism, boundaries, confidence? What's actually really going on? Why is it we allow ourselves to carry too much?

[00:21:36] So there's lots of things where we feel like we're giving. So the over responsible piece is the giving to others. The validation, you know, of like, of helping someone else. However, with looking at that pattern or programming, we forget that we're being under responsible for ourselves. So we're kind of not looking at the boundaries and going, "What do we need in this transaction?

[00:22:25] And so, it's a really interesting space because the opportunity for women is to go towards what is it they truly need. Because there's something that they're valuing about that, and how do we move on that line towards their healthy responsibility where you've got this boundary piece.

[00:23:12] When you have to parent your parents from quite a young age, it builds this over responsibility, and it becomes who you are. You're the one who's responsible. You're the one who picks up. You're the one who does the things that other people aren't doing. And so as a, response to threat, it becomes very ingrained in who we are, and there's a lot of unpacking required in order to work through that and move into that space where we do recognize that it's over responsible for things and then, like you said, under responsible for ourselves or to ourselves.

[00:23:54] Kim Dunlop: Yeah, thank you for that. I also want to first acknowledge you in just sharing that piece as well, because what you did unpack and how we looked at those structures to work out how that was created as a learnt behavior. And I'm kind of just going to give a little bit of insight around, say, we can hold onto those programs or patterns or that learned behavior, but we can then start to, as adults, start to tap into the thinking.

[00:24:56] They're just giving you feedback in that moment. So they're giving you the feedback that something is not resolved within ourselves. And so it's can we then say, "Thank you so much for showing up this way because it's now showing me how I'm showing up"? Because that's where the trigger comes up.

[00:25:45] Ros Cardinal: I love that. And it is that s- the story piece, and Brene Brown says it. She says, "What's the story I'm telling myself?" And that's such a useful piece, isn't it, to kind of go, am I responding from the reality of what's happening in this moment for me, or am I responding from that old story, the story that kept me safe?

[00:26:19] They've been protective, and they've been really helpful for us, and it's that letting go and moving into what's my next phase of life, I suppose. Like you've said, the suit. We can take that jacket off and hang it on the back of a chair, and we're going to pick up another one and put it on. Um, so as someone who supports women professionally, what do you think women really need in the workplace?

[00:27:06] So it's something that you've learned for such a long time, which then feeds into your archetype piece, Ros, where we can actually get flexibility on. And so that protection piece, when we acknowledge it and understand it a little bit, and we don't have to necessarily go into the story all the time.

[00:27:57] And so we all know our identity, we all know the label. I'm, an assistant, or I'm, um, a managing director, or I'm a director, or I'm a partner. Whatever it is you are the label of, but who are you underneath to gain a bit more understanding to then know who you are dealing with, say, in a boardroom or in a one-on-one meeting, to then know whether or not you need to bring that protective piece up or, and then just check in with yourself to actually then go, "Oh, okay, can I just come back to you?

[00:28:48] Um, there was something about that." So there's value in what that other person is presenting, 'cause it's just showing you a different pattern about how they showed up. And to give you a little example, um, it... And it's a really simple example and it- and I love sharing this example, Ros. It's like going to a bar, right?

[00:29:16] I walk up to the bar and I could be wearing a flowing dress take no attention as to who's around me, Ros. Uh, I just turn up to the bar and then the barman slides across and says to the blonde "What would you like to drink?" And I go, "I'd like two vodkas, thank you." And everyone else around me is actually looking at me going, "Oh my God, I can't believe it.

[00:30:00] Are we putting ourselves first, or are we looking at putting others first? So it's just a simple analogy to kind of look at, at the bar situation is are we just turning up and going, "I don't care. I'm not going to check in with anyone. I'm just going to turn up at the bar and I want my drinks."

[00:30:24] Kim Dunlop: Exactly. But that can sometimes be an analogy in a meeting with women in one-on-one. The other person is putting themselves first. They're really clear about what it is they need from the other person, and that could be a trigger point to that person. And so I sort of say to women "What is it you need?"

[00:30:54] Ros Cardinal: And we're standing at the bar and everyone's elbowing us out the way, and we're not even kind of putting our hand up and going, "Excuse me, excuse me."

[00:31:04] Ros Cardinal: Yeah. So it's talking about what women actually need in the workplace. I think one of the things that I've been working with women on, it comes up over and over again, is around this how do I move out of my shadow archetype, my fear response, into something more productive?

[00:31:37] You put an idea forward and it kind of gets ignored. It gets glossed over. People move on to the next agenda point. And then maybe 10 minutes later, uh, maybe perhaps a man in the room raises exactly the same issue and it gets taken up enthusiastically. Everyone's like, "Oh my God, that is such a great idea, Bob."

[00:32:12] But the script piece is something just simple that they can go, "If this happens, here's what you need to do," which is something like, "Bob, thank you for expanding on my idea. Isn't it great we're on the same page with this?

[00:32:44] Kim Dunlop: 100%. And do you know why it's so powerful, Ros? Is because it's the integration piece. And that's the part that we're not practicing, is integrating the words. And so I've been doing a lot of that integration work with people, and women in particular, to get them to speak the words.

[00:33:23] Because when they freeze, it's our system telling us, "Okay, I've been triggered in some ways," or, you know, "That person, has stolen my idea," as simple as that "and I'm upset about that because it was an idea that I brought forward, and I didn't know how to respond." "And my system just went into freeze."

[00:33:56] Ros Cardinal: Yeah. And also something that I find effective for women as well, and look, for everybody, it's not just a woman thing.

[00:34:16] And then she said, "I just can't think of what to say. It's almost like I lose my capacity to think straight, and I then feel really triggered myself and so on." And so again, going back to scripts, I said, "Look, one of the things you can do is just take some space. Like, just say to the person, 'The point you've raised is actually really valid. I need to think about that.'" Let's just go make a cup of tea and come back. Or if you're dealing with somebody and it's really difficult and it's clear that things aren't going anywhere, you can say, "Look, I love the fact that you're so passionate about this," or, "I can see how important this is to you.

[00:35:00] Kim Dunlop: And I 100% agree with you as well, 'cause, A, it's giving that pause for reflection. It's giving that person time to recalibrate. And you're changing the state as well. Mm. You're changing the state. You're kind of cutting it off, changing the state to go, "Let's just take a break." So I really love that, and I think that's really valid and so important for us to do that when we know that it's not comfortable for ourselves.

[00:35:43] But it's acknowledging that if emotions are heightened, nobody's at their best in the room.

[00:35:49] Ros Cardinal: And it's better to take the space.

[00:36:01] Can we reconvene at a different time? Can I just take that on notice? Can I just-" Mm ... digest what you've shared? Because it's really I really like what you've shared." The other part as well is, and I think, you know, we could be going into different territory here, but is if it, and I heard this recently, um, about a situation with two women and a man in a scenario where it was quite heated.

[00:36:48] And so the third party person was watching this but no one was actually interacting. So there was no one who was able to rise above to actually take it to a different level or regain, you know, at a different time.

[00:37:12] Kim Dunlop: So I would say my philosophy is What are my foundations? My foundations have always been you know, relationships. So in relationship, it's probably been the key thing, and communication. In relationship with, um, clients, and if you're not in relationship, then either they've expanded so much that they need to, go outside and grow more, or I can't help them, you know?

[00:38:45] Ros Cardinal: So when you think about working with women, what do you wish more women actually understood about themselves?

[00:39:25] And are we being intentional about what we want to grow, or are we just so stuck that we need to nurture ourselves a bit more? And that's the part that I'm really noticing. And if we do need more nurturing, that's fine. But it's then just acknowledging that as a female leader, going, "I actually need more care and compassion, and I've gotta do a bit of work on that before I can then start to stretch myself."

[00:40:15] Are we being kind to ourselves? Are we really looking after ourselves before we even step forward and actually help someone else within the work environment, um, or e- even in our families, Ros, you know?

[00:40:38] We turn up to work and we lead without being intentional. We show up to our families in ways that are not intentional. And I think there's a lot of value in that concept of going, "Am I being intentional about how I show up?" Mm. "Or am I just being driven by my responses?" Like I said, that patterning the story, without really ever sitting down and unpacking it and going, "What's really going on for me now? What's..." Like you said, "How are my thoughts connected to my feelings? How does that drive what I'm doing?" Rather than being clear about it and going, "I'm actually choosing this," as opposed to being driven by it.

[00:41:21] You know, so, like, for a woman leader, where, what is the intention of, say, this meeting today? What is this, the script that I have to flip today, or what is the script that I have to run in order to actually achieve my intentionality today? And if I'm stuck in the content, which is myself the story, the content, if I'm stuck in myself, what do I need to support myself, to nurture myself before I step into this intentionality?

[00:42:06] Kim Dunlop: I'd probably ask them, Ros, what would they like to hear? 'Cause I think, I think what I'm really noticing and what I am really concerned about is there's so much noise.

[00:42:53] What is it that we're uploading that's really intentional? So it really ties in that intentional piece. So what is the information? And it's really us becoming a bit more discerning, Ros, and going, "Okay, thank you for that book," or, "Thank you for that podcast. I've got enough on at the moment." I'm actually just trying to get clear and intentional about, where I want to be and what I need to achieve for myself and my family or my work environment, because I think we're just getting overloaded, that there's so much going on that we're not bringing it into integration.

[00:44:02] And so yeah, in summary, I'd love, I'd love women to really just start understand those signals and the signs, which is really where kind of my work is going, is we're not looking at the signals and the signs, you know, and going, "Okay, no, I don't want that, today. I hope you don't mind. Compassionately I don't want that.

[00:44:32] Ros Cardinal: And that's so important, isn't it? That- Freedom and authenticity to actually ask for what we want, because that's such a big missing piece for a lot of women, is this unmet needs in the workplace and not feeling like they can ask for what they want.

[00:45:12] And being able to actually role model vulnerability and go, "Yes, I was vulnerable today, but it was actually a good thing. It didn't hurt anybody around me. It actually encouraged people. It actually supported people." I think there's a big space there in corporates for recognition and understanding that women do lead differently from men, and that's okay.

[00:45:52] And there really does need to, I think, be a space where it can be acknowledged that women's leadership is valuable exactly as it is. It doesn't have to be modified to become like a male style of leadership to be important and valued.

[00:46:19] If you were a woman in a male-dominated area, which I have been and you have been as well, and it was language, Ros, that I didn't know or hadn't developed or hadn't put that script into play. And putting the script into play, we're just preparing ourselves to help us actually receive as well, to actually get our needs met, and as you said, the unmet needs.

[00:47:05] So we're actually asking for our needs. We're actually saying it in our own style. So you know, pretty much what you just said before. We don't have to copy. We've just got to create our own style and, what jacket are we wanting to wear? What is the style and what are the labels of who we are?

[00:47:45] You could even lead with that prior to the meeting. You could lead with it at the time of the meeting. So there's little ways that you can get those needs met.

[00:48:03] Kim Dunlop: Exactly. I love that.

[00:48:06] Ros Cardinal: All right, Kim. Well, that's probably all we've got time for today, so I really want to thank you for that. We've had a really interesting conversation, and it's one of those things that's, I think, really important for women in leadership roles to hear. The fact that there are different ways of doing it, that you don't have to be locked into, like you said, that story, the script, the over responsibility, the things that we've learnt are things that, like a suit jacket, you can take it off and you can hang it up on a chair and walk away from it and pick up a different jacket and put that on and be a different person.

[00:48:39] Kim Dunlop: Exactly. I love it.

[00:48:45] Kim Dunlop: Oh, thank you, Ros. It's been wonderful. I've loved it.