Transcripts
Welcome to Animal Posse, the podcast dedicated to the
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people and rescues making a
difference in the lives of animals.
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Today's guest is Christy Keith.
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With over 30 years of experience, Christie
helps animal welfare organizations sharpen
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their message and reach more donors.
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She's worked with industry leaders, and
she's here to help us navigate some of the
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toughest conversations in rescue today.
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Christy, welcome to the show.
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Christie: Hi, Dixie.
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Dixie: You are quite a powerhouse
in the animal welfare industry.
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I've been looking at your bio and you have
worked with some incredible organizations
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from Maddie's Fund to University of
Florida Shelter Medicine program.
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You do a lot.
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Christie: I do.
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I've been really lucky to work
with some great organizations
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and people in my career.
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Very lucky.
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Dixie: I am looking forward to our
conversation today because I wanted to
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talk about a topic you suggested, which
was handling the growing controversies
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surrounding early spay neuter
through the lens of harm reduction.
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And I would also like to get
into some social media tragedies
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that you use to ensure that those
saved lives actually find homes.
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Christie: I would love that.
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That sounds great.
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Dixie: When we hear about the growing
debate about the long-term health impacts
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of early spay neuter, how do we frame
the harm reduction model for a public
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that only sees things in black and white?
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Christie: I think that it's really
important to think about who you're
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talking to, and I've noticed that
there's a lot of argument going on
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within the animal welfare world.
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About this because you have a lot of
volunteers, fosters and rescuers who
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have a different perspective because they
have one foot in the pet owner world and
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one foot in the animal welfare world.
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And then you have shelters and shelter
medicine experts who come from a
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more institutional perspective and.
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Both of them have a set of data that it
seems to be somewhat contradictory, and
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I've seen a lot of very hostile arguments.
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This has been about spay neuter and
early spay neuter, and I've also
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seen it over early vaccination.
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There was a really interesting study
that just came out of uc Davis last
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year talking about vaccinating,
literally newborn kittens and puppies.
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Which horrified a lot of people who just
felt that this was dangerous and risky.
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But when you're looking at the
animals who come into shelters.
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A lot of the pregnant animals
who come into shelters don't
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have immunity to these diseases.
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When they do titer tests on them, they
find that a huge percentage of them,
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I don't remember the exact numbers,
but , I believe it was around one
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third, didn't have immunity to common
diseases like distemper parvo and.
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When you're making decisions about how to
best protect these incredibly vulnerable
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kittens and puppies, it's a different
decision making process than when you're
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looking at owned pets in a home or
eight week old, or 12 week old puppies.
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And.
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It's same with spay neuter, that the
math is different when you're talking
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about a shelter population than when
you're talking about, my own pet at home.
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I don't wanna get them spayed
or neutered at a few weeks old.
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At two pounds.
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I'll wait.
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But in a shelter environment, you're crazy
to wait because your math is different.
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And I feel like.
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I've seen way too many hostile
fights between people and animal
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welfare who don't seem to be able to
look from the other person's point
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of view and understand that we all
want what's best for the animals,
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but we all have different realities
that we're making our decisions in.
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So I guess I just wanted an opportunity
to talk about that a little bit and say.
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We can't have the same set of medical
guidelines for shelter animals that
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we do for owned pets and homes because
the circumstances aren't the same.
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Puppies and kittens and shelters are
incredibly vulnerable to disease and
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are incredibly prone to going out of
the shelter without being spayed and
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neutered If we're not doing early spay
neuter on puppies and kittens and.
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Possibly becoming another
statistic in overpopulation.
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So we need to try and have a more holistic
view of this issue and understand that
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sometimes the decisions that we make for
shelter animals in their own best interest
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are different than the ones we would
make for our own pets in our own homes.
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Dixie: When you say shelter environment,
are you talking strictly about,
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say, like a municipal shelter or
are you talking about, say rescues
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that house a lot of animals as well?
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Christie: I think it
depends on the environment.
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So when I say shelters, I'm talking
about a sort of institutional setting
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where you have crowding and stress.
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It doesn't have to be municipal,
it can be a private shelter,
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can even be foster homes.
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I think that you and I probably
both know that some rescue groups
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overstock their foster homes
because they're desperate, right?
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If they have more animals than
they have homes for, than they have
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foster homes for, they're trying
to save as many lives as they can.
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And they may be doing things like
bringing in young kittens when there's
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already kittens in the environment.
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They may be having pregnant cats and dogs
who are giving birth in foster homes when
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there's other animals still coming in.
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It really just depends on the
environment, but I am primarily
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talking about brick and mortar shelters
rather than rescue and foster homes.
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Dixie: Yeah, I would definitely
like to dive more into that.
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Now, I know from my personal
perspective, the vets that we
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have in my area are very good.
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They will do a kitten as
long as it's two pounds.
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Yes.
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And I know different vets
have different rules.
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If a vet feels comfortable
doing it at two pounds, great.
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Other vets have other rules, where they
might want 'em three pounds or even
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more than three pounds, and I understand
that, but a lot of the vets that I
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work with will do 'em at two pounds.
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Personally, I find I like to get
'em done at two pounds because I
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find that they really don't know
anything has been done to 'em.
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But if you wait till they're a little
bit older, they have a little bit more
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difficulty with the recovery from it.
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You could tell that it's bothering 'em.
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It doesn't heal up as fast.
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But I would definitely like to dive
more into the studies that you've
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gone over and the advantages and maybe
disadvantages of doing them so young.
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Christie: In the vaccine study that
I was just looking at from last
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year, from uc, Davis, it was really
interesting to me because they used
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language, something along the lines of.
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The risks are largely theoretical
and the dangers are imminent.
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That might not be a direct quote, but
that was essentially what they said
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when they're talking again about shelter
animals, that the risk of being adopted
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out without being altered first or
the risk of this was a vaccine study.
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So they were talking about the risk of
not vaccinating young enough because
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you can't count on the mother's immunity
to protect the puppies or kittens.
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Outweighs the potential risk of, in
the case of vaccines, they say if you
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vaccinate them too often or too young, it
might damage their kidneys in adulthood.
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And they say that when you do
early spay neuter, it is associated
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with the increased risk of certain
health problems, which when you
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increase the risk of something.
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It doesn't mean that they
will definitely get it.
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It doesn't even mean that
it becomes a huge risk.
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It means that the risk
itself is increased.
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I've seen a lot of people say, oh,
there was a 50% increase in something.
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That's a meaningless statistic unless you
know what the baseline risk was, because
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it may have increased by a hundred percent
and still not be that much because the
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risk itself was incredibly low already.
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So you have to really understand.
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What are you talking about
when you say the risk of.
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Bone cancer or kidney disease
is increased because of early
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vaccination or early spay neuter.
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Now again.
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I believe in both sets of data.
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I think that there are
drawbacks to early spay neuter,
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especially for giant breed dogs.
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I don't think that's made up.
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But I think that you have to weigh
the benefits versus the risks, and
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those things change depending on the
background that you're talking about.
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Again, puppies and kittens being
adopted out of a shelter, it's much
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safer for them to be sterilized
and vaccinated than to wait.
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It's just a fact and maybe that any harm
that might come to them down the road,
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which again is not something that will
definitely happen, it might be worth
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the risk because you saved their life.
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If they're not gonna survive,
what difference does it make?
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What their risk is later
in a life they don't have.
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Dixie: When you're saying risk too,
you're just talking about the risk of
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it increasing, not necessarily the Yes.
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Potential.
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Yes.
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Okay.
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Okay.
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That's what I just wanted to make
sure I was understanding that.
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You said that there's this new
study about vaccinating newborns.
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Yes.
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Yes.
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Okay.
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I do wanna ask you about that
since you've read the study, I do.
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The bottle kittens.
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So I'm dealing with the tiniest, little
babies that you could possibly deal with.
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I've done newborns.
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I do 'em a couple of weeks old.
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So when we're dealing with the babies
that size, if they get sick, the amount
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of meds that the vet may tell us to give
those babies is like such a minute amount.
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It is literally like a drop.
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So I know when you do the
vaccines come as one mil.
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So would you give that whole amount to the
baby or do you like have to dose it down?
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Christie: I'm not a veterinarian,
but my understanding is that a
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vaccine is different from a drug.
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A vaccine is a biologic and it
represents an immunizing dose.
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So when you put a puppy or kitten
in the environment, the dose of
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exposure to a virus or a bacteria
that they encounter is gonna be the
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same, whether they're the size of it.
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Peanut or a great Dane, right?
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So you need to protect them
with an immunizing dose.
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You need the dose that will cause their
immune system to react appropriately.
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So it's not really the same as
a drug which has got a direct
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physiologic impact on body systems.
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Now, again, I'm not a veterinarian
and I may be understanding that
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incorrectly, but that's how it's
always been presented to me.
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Dixie: Okay.
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I understand.
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I was just wondering if the studies
made any kind of mention of that,
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the ones that you have read, this
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Christie: particular study does not.
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This study is called you can
find it, neonatal Vaccination
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recommendations on the uc, Davis Caret
Shelter Medicine program website.
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And if you just Google caret
and neonatal vaccination
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recommendations, it'll pop right up.
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Dixie: Now let's talk about the advantages
since you've covered the disadvantages.
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Let's go over some of the advantages
of the very early spay neuter and then
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as well as the early vaccinations.
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And getting back to the spay
neuter since I did mention that
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they do 'em around two pounds.
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Is there any talk about
doing 'em even like smaller?
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Christie: I think that right
now everybody's pretty much
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hovering at two pounds.
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I think that smaller than that,
they can become hard to sterilize.
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It's harder to do the surgery and they
want them to be at about two pounds,
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but I think that there was a time when
they wanted them to be three pounds.
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They found that two pounds
was actually easier.
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The surgeons were finding it
easier, and as you noted, they
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recovered faster and more easily.
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And I think that some of this is just
going to be a matter of learning as you
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go, and, but I know right now, as far
as I'm aware, the two pound limit is
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pretty much universal at this point.
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The number one advantage in my mind is.
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They're sterilized.
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They can't reproduce.
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And people want to adopt kittens,
when they're cute and little.
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They don't wanna wait.
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They don't wanna sit there and
wait until they're 12 weeks old.
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They want them at eight weeks.
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They want them young.
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And some rescues won't adopt them out
that young, but shelters certainly
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do because they're better off in
a home than they are in a shelter.
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I don't think people really understand
how young a cat can get pregnant.
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I have found a lot of people think they
can't get pregnant until they're six
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months old and, they can practically
be grandmothers at six months old.
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I don't mean that literally,
of course, but you really.
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Have to try and wrap your brain
around how much risk a cat is at of
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teen pregnancy to understand why it's
so important to spay them young and
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spay them before they're adopted.
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And so pet overpopulation preventing
unwanted litters is, without
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question the single biggest benefit
of early spay neuter, however.
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Surgeons comment that the surgery
is easier and many people involved
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with helping them recover say
recovery is also easier on the,
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these very young kittens and puppies.
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And for this reason, and I'm talking a
lot about kittens because they're smaller.
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Of course there are toy dogs, but most
dogs that are in shelters are bigger dogs.
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And so of course they're larger When
they're the same age as the kitten,
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they're much bigger than the kitten, so
people don't react to it as negatively.
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But in fact, many of the risks are greater
with dogs, especially the larger dogs.
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Of, orthopedic problems
associated with early spay neuter.
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So there is a lot of argument going on
about whether or not the risks outweigh
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the benefits, but you only have to
understand that medium to large size
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dogs represent most of the dogs in
shelters, and these dogs are young.
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Intact and huge percentage of them do
not have immunity to common diseases.
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So this is a very at risk population
that could have been prevented.
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A lot of their challenges could
have been prevented with early spay
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neuter, either because they wouldn't
have been born in the first place or
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because that individual dog would have.
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Fewer behavior issues.
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A lot of times, I don't wanna say
that intact status directly causes
247
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behavior problems because that
really hasn't been my experience
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with at least dogs that I've known.
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But what I will say is that
there's an association.
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Dogs entering shelters with dogs not
being intact with dogs who are intact.
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So intact dogs are more likely
to come into shelters, and intact
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dogs are more likely not to
be immune to common diseases.
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So it's a perfect storm of
vulnerability and problems.
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So early spay neuter, again,
steps in and prevents a lot of
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these problems from happening.
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Dixie: And I think even a lot of times,
especially like you said with the
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cats and the kittens getting pregnant
at four months, even people with the
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best intentions, I don't think they
always understand, they may be 100%
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pro spay neuter, but when they get a
kitten and it's three months old and
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they say, okay, we're gonna keep it
inside we're not gonna let it outside.
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We want an indoor only cat.
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I don't think that they realize a lot of
the times when they come into maturity
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that they're trying to get outside and
they will find a way to sneak outside.
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And when they are tiny, they're easier to
sneak outside than when it is a big cat.
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Even though the big cats can
do it too, and so That's right.
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I find that's definitely an issue.
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I've seen that happen many a times when
people are like we had the spay neuter
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appointment set up and she got outside.
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Christie: Yeah, you hear that
a lot when you have these very
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young cats having kittens.
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You have people who say, not only
did they not know they could get
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pregnant that young, but I can't
tell you how many, litters of kittens
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I've seen where the people swore that
they were indoor only cats who were
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too young to get pregnant and they
couldn't believe that it had happened.
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Dixie: When you're working with
all of these groups , do you
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00:17:36,742 --> 00:17:40,582
Help to educate them about these
new findings, or are they the
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00:17:40,582 --> 00:17:41,962
ones approaching you with it?
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Christie: They're the ones who educate me.
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00:17:44,512 --> 00:17:49,372
I've been so lucky to work with so
many great shelter medicine vets.
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I was the communications manager for
the Million Cat Challenge, which was a
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joint project of the uc Davis Shelter
Medicine program in the University
282
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of Florida Shelter medicine program.
283
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It's was a Maddie's fund project,
and so much of what I learned about
284
00:18:06,882 --> 00:18:09,682
cat spay neuter, and just cat.
285
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Population management in general was from
the seven years that I worked on that
286
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project, it was an incredible opportunity
to learn from people who are truly in the
287
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trenches and really know what's going on.
288
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And just Dr.
289
00:18:25,542 --> 00:18:26,692
Kate Hurley and Dr.
290
00:18:26,692 --> 00:18:30,732
Julie Levy are two of my
heroes, and working with them
291
00:18:30,732 --> 00:18:32,322
was the honor of a lifetime.
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00:18:33,240 --> 00:18:36,180
Dixie: I would like to switch gears
a little bit and talk a little
293
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bit now about the social media.
294
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Yes.
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Okay.
296
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'cause it's one thing.
297
00:18:41,070 --> 00:18:44,610
So first you, of course you wanna
use social media to get homes.
298
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Yes.
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You also wanna use social media to
spread awareness of spay neuter.
300
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Christie: Yes.
301
00:18:52,090 --> 00:18:57,280
Dixie: But I find that,
like for me personally.
302
00:18:57,790 --> 00:19:05,110
It's like all of my social media friends
and all the people that follow my social
303
00:19:05,110 --> 00:19:10,630
media page are pretty much all people that
are already all on board with this, and
304
00:19:10,630 --> 00:19:13,270
they are at their capacity of animals.
305
00:19:13,660 --> 00:19:20,710
So how can you leverage social media to
get that message across to new people?
306
00:19:20,980 --> 00:19:24,910
To find more homes for animals, to
spread more awareness of spay neuter.
307
00:19:26,400 --> 00:19:28,200
Christie: That's such a
great question, Dixie.
308
00:19:28,200 --> 00:19:29,490
I love that you asked it.
309
00:19:29,520 --> 00:19:31,470
I think there's two answers to it.
310
00:19:31,800 --> 00:19:35,550
One of them has to do with what
you're saying and the other has to do
311
00:19:35,550 --> 00:19:37,470
with the channels that you're using.
312
00:19:38,010 --> 00:19:41,340
Not you personally, but just
all of us in animal welfare.
313
00:19:41,340 --> 00:19:47,850
I think that sometimes we are just
preaching to the choir, both in terms of.
314
00:19:48,885 --> 00:19:53,835
What we're saying and in terms
of who we're talking to, and by
315
00:19:53,835 --> 00:19:58,005
being able to spread out and try
and get our message in front of.
316
00:19:58,410 --> 00:20:03,110
An audience who's not sick and
tired of hearing about it is tricky.
317
00:20:03,140 --> 00:20:10,020
And I've noticed a lot of benefit to
posting to local groups like Nextdoor and
318
00:20:10,710 --> 00:20:17,070
groups that are set up to like community
groups, like for a particular town.
319
00:20:17,070 --> 00:20:20,980
We have a lot of them in the
area where I live on Facebook,
320
00:20:20,980 --> 00:20:22,385
for example, where you'll have.
321
00:20:23,440 --> 00:20:27,760
Facebook group for this town or
that town and that there's a lot
322
00:20:27,760 --> 00:20:34,750
of people who like to spread animal
welfare messages, but those audiences
323
00:20:34,750 --> 00:20:38,950
respond to different things than
animal welfare audiences respond to.
324
00:20:39,130 --> 00:20:43,180
And this is something that
I've been talking about now for
325
00:20:43,180 --> 00:20:47,770
probably 15 years, is that we talk.
326
00:20:48,670 --> 00:20:54,880
In ways that appeal to us and activate
us and motivate us, but we have to
327
00:20:54,880 --> 00:21:01,180
start talking in ways that motivate
not us, that motivate regular people.
328
00:21:01,280 --> 00:21:07,080
One of my colleagues is Sharon Fletcher at
Maddie's Fund, and she used to always say.
329
00:21:07,760 --> 00:21:12,140
She would talk to her neighbors and she
would run messaging by her neighbors.
330
00:21:12,800 --> 00:21:16,880
And we started calling it the
Sharon's Neighbors Test, and
331
00:21:16,880 --> 00:21:18,740
I still use it to this day.
332
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And I say, okay, what would
Sharon's neighbors say about this?
333
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Or how would they hear this information?
334
00:21:27,620 --> 00:21:30,230
And I was on a really
interesting call the other day.
335
00:21:30,270 --> 00:21:32,310
I'm the Michigan State
representative for the.
336
00:21:33,300 --> 00:21:37,410
United Spay Alliance and I went to a
United Spay Alliance meeting and we were
337
00:21:37,410 --> 00:21:41,310
talking about messaging around spay neuter
and someone made the comment that spay
338
00:21:41,310 --> 00:21:47,010
neuter isn't sexy and it's really hard to
message spay neuter to the general public.
339
00:21:47,580 --> 00:21:52,365
And I was thinking about it a lot and
talking it over with another colleague
340
00:21:52,480 --> 00:21:54,290
and we were saying, spay neuter is.
341
00:21:54,805 --> 00:21:59,705
Sexy . There's a lot of really
powerful stories around spay neuter.
342
00:21:59,705 --> 00:22:04,705
The pet overpopulation story is powerful,
but there's the health benefits story
343
00:22:04,705 --> 00:22:10,285
and there's, because, we talk about
the health risks of early spay neuter,
344
00:22:10,285 --> 00:22:14,665
but spay neuter itself in general
does have a cumulative positive.
345
00:22:15,400 --> 00:22:21,110
Impact on health and and
longevity, especially in dogs.
346
00:22:21,470 --> 00:22:30,310
And you can reach people with messages
that touch on preventing homelessness and
347
00:22:30,310 --> 00:22:33,730
suffering, preventing health problems.
348
00:22:34,060 --> 00:22:38,560
You can really get to people and
make them think, whereas so often.
349
00:22:38,980 --> 00:22:43,090
When we message spay neuter, we
do it in this really lecturing
350
00:22:43,090 --> 00:22:45,880
way that is not very sexy.
351
00:22:45,880 --> 00:22:47,980
It's not very interesting and appealing.
352
00:22:47,980 --> 00:22:49,480
It doesn't touch people's hearts.
353
00:22:49,930 --> 00:22:52,540
It doesn't tell people
what's in it for them.
354
00:22:53,560 --> 00:22:53,800
It.
355
00:22:53,860 --> 00:22:57,940
It misses all the opportunities
that we've learned about in public
356
00:22:58,180 --> 00:23:03,430
speaking and persuasion to really grab
people by their hearts and make them
357
00:23:03,430 --> 00:23:05,560
understand something in a different way.
358
00:23:06,040 --> 00:23:07,990
So does the same with adoption.
359
00:23:07,990 --> 00:23:12,070
We tend to tell these heartbreaking
stories about our animals.
360
00:23:13,090 --> 00:23:17,200
Because those are very motivational
for a rescue audience, and a lot of
361
00:23:17,200 --> 00:23:18,880
times that's who we're talking to.
362
00:23:19,390 --> 00:23:23,710
The average people want happy,
healthy pets who are gonna sleep
363
00:23:23,710 --> 00:23:25,240
at the foot of their kids' beds.
364
00:23:25,870 --> 00:23:29,715
They don't want a project, they
don't want a pet who's suffering
365
00:23:29,715 --> 00:23:31,665
from post-traumatic stress disorder.
366
00:23:32,175 --> 00:23:32,745
They want.
367
00:23:33,540 --> 00:23:35,640
A moment of happiness and joy.
368
00:23:35,730 --> 00:23:37,350
That's what they want.
369
00:23:37,680 --> 00:23:41,310
I'm not saying that people can't be
reached by heartbreaking stories.
370
00:23:41,310 --> 00:23:42,750
We all know that they can.
371
00:23:43,170 --> 00:23:46,800
I'm saying that the more you tell
those stories, you run the risk of
372
00:23:46,800 --> 00:23:49,380
poisoning the well for adoption.
373
00:23:49,380 --> 00:23:52,650
For people who aren't looking
for that, who outnumber.
374
00:23:53,430 --> 00:23:58,470
People who are looking for that project
PET or that heartbreaking story to
375
00:23:58,470 --> 00:24:00,420
feel like they've rescued an animal.
376
00:24:01,050 --> 00:24:07,060
PetSmart Charities did some interesting
research on this, and again, I don't
377
00:24:07,060 --> 00:24:09,010
have the research in front of me.
378
00:24:09,010 --> 00:24:13,180
I can't quote from it directly,
but they were talking about what
379
00:24:13,180 --> 00:24:17,590
it was that people were looking for
in a pet and all the things that
380
00:24:17,590 --> 00:24:20,080
motivated them to want that pet.
381
00:24:21,025 --> 00:24:25,945
The story, the pet's background
story was the least important
382
00:24:28,615 --> 00:24:31,795
and humorously enough, the number
one thing that they liked about a
383
00:24:31,795 --> 00:24:33,685
dog was that the dog jumped on them.
384
00:24:34,045 --> 00:24:37,555
So we spend all this time training
dogs not to jump on people, but in
385
00:24:37,970 --> 00:24:39,955
fact the doctors seemed to like it.
386
00:24:40,405 --> 00:24:44,085
But yeah, so I think
that we really need to.
387
00:24:44,775 --> 00:24:48,285
Be very conscious of the audience
when we're trying to get our message
388
00:24:48,285 --> 00:24:54,315
out beyond our core following, to
look for these opportunities to put
389
00:24:54,315 --> 00:24:56,205
the message in a different place.
390
00:24:56,205 --> 00:24:59,955
A place that's not already saturated
with our messaging, but to talk
391
00:24:59,955 --> 00:25:01,695
about it in ways that appeal.
392
00:25:02,360 --> 00:25:08,540
To the general public who are looking
for these joyful experiences and humor.
393
00:25:09,000 --> 00:25:12,870
One of my clients for 14 years
was the Shelter Pet Project,
394
00:25:12,870 --> 00:25:16,470
which was the ad council's public
service advertising campaign.
395
00:25:16,680 --> 00:25:23,040
And all our ads were funny or
heartwarming, and we never did any
396
00:25:23,130 --> 00:25:28,280
sad or, the first set of ads that
we did were all very humorous.
397
00:25:29,170 --> 00:25:34,660
And we got a lot of attention for that
because this was back in, I'm just trying
398
00:25:34,660 --> 00:25:36,280
to think what year it must have been.
399
00:25:37,570 --> 00:25:43,330
Must have been maybe the early
two thousands I'm thinking.
400
00:25:44,170 --> 00:25:44,620
We were.
401
00:25:47,595 --> 00:25:53,355
Mid two thousands and it was
really uncommon at that point for
402
00:25:53,475 --> 00:25:57,625
people to do ads for pet adoption
that weren't heartbreaking.
403
00:25:58,415 --> 00:26:00,245
Arms of the angels and all that.
404
00:26:00,335 --> 00:26:06,815
Which to be fair are mostly fundraising
ads, not adoption ads, but in rescue.
405
00:26:07,475 --> 00:26:12,255
I'm sure you've seen just the
avalanche of stories of, this tragic.
406
00:26:13,560 --> 00:26:20,450
Background that the pet has and how we're
gonna save them from this terrible trauma.
407
00:26:20,500 --> 00:26:26,330
And and we've really become overly reliant
on that is the only note that we have.
408
00:26:26,330 --> 00:26:29,660
And to remember that humor and
touching people's hearts in a
409
00:26:29,660 --> 00:26:32,280
positive way is more popular.
410
00:26:33,480 --> 00:26:34,830
Dixie: Yeah, I can agree with that.
411
00:26:34,830 --> 00:26:37,770
I can actually see that now
that you mentioned that.
412
00:26:38,895 --> 00:26:45,555
Because if you do have that
heartstring case that you tend to
413
00:26:45,555 --> 00:26:50,055
attract somebody that has already
has a rescue pet, essentially.
414
00:26:50,345 --> 00:26:54,315
Now, I'm gonna say like , in some
special needs cases that might
415
00:26:54,345 --> 00:26:56,175
be who you wanna attract anyway.
416
00:26:56,175 --> 00:26:58,335
So in that approach it might be good.
417
00:26:58,390 --> 00:26:58,550
Absolutely.
418
00:26:58,970 --> 00:26:59,190
But
419
00:26:59,415 --> 00:27:00,315
Christie: Absolutely.
420
00:27:00,375 --> 00:27:00,705
Dixie: Yeah.
421
00:27:00,705 --> 00:27:01,815
But for the general.
422
00:27:02,715 --> 00:27:03,615
Adoptions.
423
00:27:03,665 --> 00:27:08,405
I can see that, if you say, oh I
rescued these puppies off the side
424
00:27:08,405 --> 00:27:11,195
of the road and they need homes.
425
00:27:11,195 --> 00:27:16,600
And I think people sometimes might think
why were they on the side of the road?
426
00:27:16,650 --> 00:27:17,945
Was there something wrong with them?
427
00:27:18,210 --> 00:27:20,670
So maybe that's not a good choice for us.
428
00:27:21,150 --> 00:27:26,475
So , I can see what, if you frame it in a
more positive light, how it would attract.
429
00:27:27,405 --> 00:27:28,365
Different people,
430
00:27:29,655 --> 00:27:30,675
Christie: soccer moms.
431
00:27:31,575 --> 00:27:31,935
Dixie: Yeah.
432
00:27:31,935 --> 00:27:32,085
Yeah.
433
00:27:32,085 --> 00:27:32,960
I , can see that what I always in my
434
00:27:32,960 --> 00:27:33,620
Christie: head is.
435
00:27:33,890 --> 00:27:35,180
Yeah, exactly.
436
00:27:35,180 --> 00:27:35,990
Exactly.
437
00:27:36,040 --> 00:27:37,360
And there's more of them.
438
00:27:37,360 --> 00:27:38,560
They outnumber us.
439
00:27:39,185 --> 00:27:39,475
Dixie: Yeah.
440
00:27:39,475 --> 00:27:39,715
Yeah.
441
00:27:39,715 --> 00:27:47,310
And in your audience, and I will say
too that I've noticed on the, my latest
442
00:27:47,310 --> 00:27:49,815
adoptions, I have a good sense of humor.
443
00:27:50,755 --> 00:27:53,905
So I tend to do a more
comical twist on things.
444
00:27:54,635 --> 00:27:54,785
Good.
445
00:27:54,795 --> 00:28:01,195
So I do see that since I've started doing,
and letting my kind of humor come out that
446
00:28:01,345 --> 00:28:08,075
I do see my adoption rates are going up
and then I'm also getting adopted faster.
447
00:28:08,385 --> 00:28:12,285
Another thing that I would like to ask
you too is I see on your LinkedIn that
448
00:28:12,285 --> 00:28:14,985
you're a Reagan AI certified communicator.
449
00:28:16,005 --> 00:28:16,575
Christie: Yes,
450
00:28:16,635 --> 00:28:16,695
Dixie: I
451
00:28:16,695 --> 00:28:17,235
Christie: am.
452
00:28:17,235 --> 00:28:17,810
Dixie: Okay, so what is that?
453
00:28:19,680 --> 00:28:24,180
Christie: So I took a course, a
certification course in working with ai.
454
00:28:24,670 --> 00:28:29,045
I was very interested in it when it first
appeared on the scene and, some of the
455
00:28:29,045 --> 00:28:33,845
negative things that, that we've learned
about AI since then have maybe given
456
00:28:33,845 --> 00:28:38,185
me a little bit of pause, but I still
think that it's a really powerful tools.
457
00:28:38,820 --> 00:28:44,420
For tool for animal welfare, especially
when we, nonprofits in general, but
458
00:28:44,420 --> 00:28:50,660
animal welfare specifically because
we run so lean in terms of only
459
00:28:50,660 --> 00:28:54,800
the biggest shelters have an entire
communications team or marketing team.
460
00:28:55,850 --> 00:29:02,150
And rescue groups often don't have
anyone with marketing or communications
461
00:29:02,150 --> 00:29:06,410
experience, and they still have
marketing and communications needs.
462
00:29:06,770 --> 00:29:09,890
So I wanted to be able
to really understand how.
463
00:29:10,530 --> 00:29:16,950
I could advise people to use AI to write
adoption listings, pet bios, social
464
00:29:16,950 --> 00:29:24,100
media posts newsletters fundraising,
appeals, grant applications, all the
465
00:29:24,100 --> 00:29:25,960
things that AI can help you with.
466
00:29:25,960 --> 00:29:31,810
I wanted to be sure that I knew
how to advise them to use those
467
00:29:31,810 --> 00:29:34,210
things or avoid them, and.
468
00:29:35,080 --> 00:29:39,550
What, how to avoid making mistakes
with them and how to get the most out
469
00:29:39,550 --> 00:29:44,260
of an interaction with an artificial
intelligence because what you put
470
00:29:44,260 --> 00:29:48,640
into it determines what you get out
of it, but it is still a huge time
471
00:29:48,640 --> 00:29:50,890
and money saver for nonprofits.
472
00:29:50,920 --> 00:29:55,830
So I really wanted to pursue that
so that I could bring that to the
473
00:29:55,830 --> 00:30:00,360
table with my clients and make sure
that they got the benefits of working
474
00:30:00,360 --> 00:30:01,830
with AI if it would help them.
475
00:30:03,070 --> 00:30:07,380
Dixie: Has it been beneficial to
them in terms of writing adoption
476
00:30:07,380 --> 00:30:09,840
bios and maybe social media posts?
477
00:30:11,010 --> 00:30:11,820
Christie: I don't know.
478
00:30:11,820 --> 00:30:16,260
I can tell when I'm on Petfinder
when bios have been written by ai.
479
00:30:16,320 --> 00:30:17,830
They're just obvious.
480
00:30:17,830 --> 00:30:19,330
I don't know if it matters.
481
00:30:20,050 --> 00:30:21,550
Sometimes I think that.
482
00:30:21,955 --> 00:30:27,925
We need to spend more time educating
people on how to write good AI prompts and
483
00:30:28,165 --> 00:30:34,415
because they're just going in and they're
not giving the AI the right information
484
00:30:34,895 --> 00:30:38,465
to really produce good results.
485
00:30:38,495 --> 00:30:42,815
So I think there's still a lot of
work to be done, but I think that
486
00:30:42,815 --> 00:30:45,155
other times it's like plastic surgery.
487
00:30:46,175 --> 00:30:50,285
The ones and you notice are the bad
ones, but the good ones you don't know.
488
00:30:50,460 --> 00:30:52,050
You because you can't tell.
489
00:30:52,500 --> 00:30:54,720
I think that's probably true of AI too.
490
00:30:54,780 --> 00:30:58,650
There's probably really good
work being done out there that is
491
00:30:58,650 --> 00:31:00,480
invisible because it's so good.
492
00:31:01,440 --> 00:31:06,240
And so I'm not a hundred percent sure,
but of my clients, I try to work with
493
00:31:06,240 --> 00:31:08,370
them on how they do their prompts.
494
00:31:09,030 --> 00:31:11,280
That's the number one
thing I work with them on.
495
00:31:13,020 --> 00:31:15,950
Dixie: One more thing too before we
end the call that I would like to
496
00:31:15,950 --> 00:31:21,380
touch on is negative comments Yes.
497
00:31:21,470 --> 00:31:22,550
On social media.
498
00:31:22,550 --> 00:31:23,930
How do you handle those?
499
00:31:23,930 --> 00:31:26,450
What is the best way to handle that?
500
00:31:26,450 --> 00:31:30,950
Whether it's, you're either promoting
spay neuter and somebody has that
501
00:31:30,950 --> 00:31:35,330
negative comment to say, or somebody
gets mad because they wanna adopt from
502
00:31:35,330 --> 00:31:38,780
you, and either that animal has already
been adopted or you might not think
503
00:31:38,780 --> 00:31:39,935
they're a good fit for that animal.
504
00:31:42,320 --> 00:31:49,210
Christie: I have become much
more hard-ass about this.
505
00:31:49,210 --> 00:31:55,360
In my old age here, I used to be
much more soft about it, but I've
506
00:31:55,360 --> 00:31:59,290
seen way too many derailments of.
507
00:32:00,205 --> 00:32:05,515
People's social media platforms by
people who weren't being genuine,
508
00:32:05,515 --> 00:32:07,825
who were just stirring up trouble.
509
00:32:08,215 --> 00:32:11,455
So when you get a negative
comment, it might be the most
510
00:32:11,455 --> 00:32:12,610
valuable thing that you're.
511
00:32:13,345 --> 00:32:17,305
Organization will ever get, it's the
cheapest focus group you'll ever have.
512
00:32:17,665 --> 00:32:22,585
Is someone pointing out a problem
saying to you, why did you do this?
513
00:32:22,585 --> 00:32:23,845
What is happening?
514
00:32:23,845 --> 00:32:27,175
I went on your website and I
saw this and I don't understand.
515
00:32:27,665 --> 00:32:29,755
Why are you spaying neutering at.
516
00:32:30,295 --> 00:32:31,165
Two pounds.
517
00:32:31,165 --> 00:32:32,305
It's terrible.
518
00:32:32,335 --> 00:32:36,925
Whatever the negative comment is, this
is really useful information for you
519
00:32:36,925 --> 00:32:38,665
and you should be grateful for it.
520
00:32:38,935 --> 00:32:42,865
And so I always say the first thing
you do when you get an a sincere,
521
00:32:42,865 --> 00:32:46,225
negative comment, like something
that doesn't appear to be trolling,
522
00:32:46,675 --> 00:32:49,855
is you say, thank you very much
for bringing this to my attention.
523
00:32:50,275 --> 00:32:53,245
And then you say something like,
we would love, you know it.
524
00:32:53,245 --> 00:32:54,865
It depends on what they said.
525
00:32:55,285 --> 00:32:56,725
You can either say.
526
00:32:57,035 --> 00:33:01,335
This is what we do because this is
the recommendation of, the Association
527
00:33:01,335 --> 00:33:07,125
of Shelter veterinarians or something
appropriate and fairly short.
528
00:33:07,395 --> 00:33:12,955
Sometimes it's appropriate to say, please
contact so and so at such and such email
529
00:33:12,955 --> 00:33:17,585
address so we can, we can get to the
bottom of this with you that might be
530
00:33:17,585 --> 00:33:21,335
more appropriate for a customer service
type complaint where they say, I left
531
00:33:21,335 --> 00:33:23,135
a message and no one called me back.
532
00:33:23,165 --> 00:33:27,405
Or I filled out an adoption
application and I never heard from
533
00:33:27,405 --> 00:33:29,655
anyone, or something like that.
534
00:33:29,655 --> 00:33:35,695
You might wanna get them off social media
and direct them to an email address so
535
00:33:35,695 --> 00:33:37,765
that this isn't happening in public.
536
00:33:38,095 --> 00:33:40,615
But for trolling comments.
537
00:33:41,860 --> 00:33:45,340
Your response is not going to be
for them because they're not a
538
00:33:45,340 --> 00:33:47,680
sincere player in the conversation.
539
00:33:47,740 --> 00:33:51,730
They are just there to make trouble,
and what I do with them is I make
540
00:33:51,730 --> 00:33:58,000
one answer that sounds sincere and
polite and even welcoming because
541
00:33:58,000 --> 00:33:59,350
I'm not answering it for them.
542
00:33:59,350 --> 00:34:04,030
I'm answering it for all the people
reading it, and then I delete everything
543
00:34:04,030 --> 00:34:05,770
after that because we're done.
544
00:34:06,415 --> 00:34:11,505
It's over and if it becomes a
really hotbed of flames and I
545
00:34:11,505 --> 00:34:14,594
can't control it anymore, I just
delete the original comment.
546
00:34:15,165 --> 00:34:16,725
I didn't use to be like that.
547
00:34:16,725 --> 00:34:20,145
I used to feel like we shouldn't be
deleting all these comments, and now I'm
548
00:34:20,145 --> 00:34:26,385
just like, if they're not sincere, if
they're just there to make trouble, they
549
00:34:26,385 --> 00:34:28,335
don't need to do it on my real estate.
550
00:34:28,755 --> 00:34:32,750
So I usually advise people to be
pretty tough with trolling comments.
551
00:34:34,139 --> 00:34:35,429
Dixie: That makes a lot of sense.
552
00:34:35,480 --> 00:34:40,280
What would you say about the ones that
say they fill out an adoption application?
553
00:34:40,340 --> 00:34:44,420
You call them up, but you tell
'em, Hey, this animal is not
554
00:34:44,420 --> 00:34:45,710
a good fit for your family.
555
00:34:45,710 --> 00:34:47,480
We're not approving your application.
556
00:34:47,719 --> 00:34:51,830
Because I do see that a lot where a
lot of them will go onto rescue pages
557
00:34:52,210 --> 00:34:55,965
and they'll try to get their friends
on there too, to say, go leave bad
558
00:34:55,965 --> 00:34:57,615
reviews and do things like that.
559
00:34:58,065 --> 00:34:59,985
So how would you handle those?
560
00:35:00,720 --> 00:35:03,180
Christie: Yeah, that's so
difficult because there's so
561
00:35:03,180 --> 00:35:04,440
many channels for them to lead.
562
00:35:04,440 --> 00:35:05,310
Bad reviews too.
563
00:35:05,310 --> 00:35:09,930
It's not just social media, it's also
Google reviews and Yelp reviews, and
564
00:35:10,570 --> 00:35:15,040
it can become really time consuming
for a small nonprofit, especially
565
00:35:15,040 --> 00:35:17,000
to track all these things down.
566
00:35:17,935 --> 00:35:23,285
But usually I would say first of
all, I always try to frame turn
567
00:35:23,285 --> 00:35:25,805
downs as positively as possible.
568
00:35:25,805 --> 00:35:31,445
So let's say someone has tried to adopt
a specific cat and you don't think that
569
00:35:31,445 --> 00:35:33,185
cat would be a good fit with this family.
570
00:35:34,655 --> 00:35:36,875
I would just try to steer
them to another cat.
571
00:35:36,935 --> 00:35:41,075
Unfortunately, sometimes you wouldn't
adopt to them at all, and they're, you
572
00:35:41,075 --> 00:35:45,335
are just, you're just turning them down
and inevitably people are gonna be upset
573
00:35:45,335 --> 00:35:47,645
about that because no one likes rejection.
574
00:35:48,065 --> 00:35:50,975
So you are inevitably
going to face this problem.
575
00:35:50,975 --> 00:35:58,235
And I would say I'm very sorry that
this didn't work out for you and us.
576
00:35:58,785 --> 00:35:59,535
Please.
577
00:36:00,345 --> 00:36:04,905
Contact us at this email address
and try and get it off social media.
578
00:36:05,535 --> 00:36:10,545
And then I would also leave responses
to like one of the things that I
579
00:36:10,545 --> 00:36:15,405
recommend that people do for reputation
management is to answer their reviews.
580
00:36:16,455 --> 00:36:19,935
And I always would say, we're so
sorry that this didn't work out.
581
00:36:20,245 --> 00:36:24,085
We hope that we wish you luck
in your search for a new pet
582
00:36:24,595 --> 00:36:26,095
because again, it's not for them.
583
00:36:26,095 --> 00:36:28,285
Nothing that you say
is gonna satisfy them.
584
00:36:28,375 --> 00:36:30,085
They're not there to be satisfied.
585
00:36:30,775 --> 00:36:36,325
They're upset, they're lashing out and
they blame you and they feel like they're
586
00:36:36,325 --> 00:36:40,195
being told they're a bad pet owner and
irresponsible and all kinds of terrible
587
00:36:40,195 --> 00:36:44,545
things, and there's not really nothing you
can do about that except be professional.
588
00:36:45,670 --> 00:36:50,470
Try to keep it from taking over your
social media, which is hard because like
589
00:36:50,470 --> 00:36:54,630
you said, they'll drag their friends
in on it and they'll also post lies.
590
00:36:54,720 --> 00:36:57,660
And that's another thing that
I recommend doing is saying.
591
00:36:58,285 --> 00:37:01,885
We've gone through our records and we
don't have any record of an adoption
592
00:37:01,885 --> 00:37:03,775
application from anyone with your name.
593
00:37:03,775 --> 00:37:06,925
Can you let us know what name your
adoption application was made under?
594
00:37:06,925 --> 00:37:08,605
So we can get to the bottom of this?
595
00:37:09,025 --> 00:37:11,965
Because what you're doing there is
signaling to the public who maybe
596
00:37:11,965 --> 00:37:16,555
is reading these reviews that the
person is fake without coming right
597
00:37:16,555 --> 00:37:18,235
out and saying the person is fake.
598
00:37:18,295 --> 00:37:20,155
And usually they don't answer you.
599
00:37:20,305 --> 00:37:22,705
So your response is just hanging there.
600
00:37:23,560 --> 00:37:27,910
You responded, you were professional,
you signaled that they were fake.
601
00:37:28,330 --> 00:37:30,430
You didn't say anything objectionable.
602
00:37:31,930 --> 00:37:34,120
That's the best you can
do in that circumstance.
603
00:37:34,120 --> 00:37:37,660
But that would be for a review
more so than a social media post.
604
00:37:38,493 --> 00:37:39,813
Dixie: Yeah, it's very good advice.
605
00:37:40,183 --> 00:37:42,403
Thank you so much for
speaking with me today.
606
00:37:42,453 --> 00:37:43,983
Christie: Oh, Dixie, it was a lot of fun.
607
00:37:43,983 --> 00:37:45,783
I really enjoyed speaking with you too
608
00:37:46,293 --> 00:37:48,783
Dixie: that's it for today's
episode of Animal Posse.
609
00:37:48,813 --> 00:37:51,753
If you love what we're doing,
please consider becoming a member.
610
00:37:51,993 --> 00:37:56,103
Your support directly helps us continue
highlighting the people and stories
611
00:37:56,103 --> 00:37:57,723
that save lives across the country.
612
00:37:58,143 --> 00:38:01,443
Just a quick reminder, the views
and opinions expressed by our
613
00:38:01,443 --> 00:38:05,463
guests are theirs alone and are
provided for entertainment purposes.
614
00:38:05,673 --> 00:38:06,963
They don't necessarily.
615
00:38:07,003 --> 00:38:11,623
reflect the official position of the show,
and this information should never replace
616
00:38:11,623 --> 00:38:13,963
the advice of your own veterinarian.
617
00:38:14,137 --> 00:38:16,387
Thanks for listening, and
we'll see you next time.
