In this episode of 'Mistress On the Mic,' Mistress March explores the intersection of neurodivergence and kink with Vee, a board-certified behavior analyst and the co-host of the Kinky AF podcast. They discuss the challenges and opportunities for neurodivergent individuals in sexual education and kink communities. The conversation emphasizes the importance of consent, communication, and tailored strategies for more effective and enjoyable kink lifestyle dynamics. They examine how rituals, sensory differences, and structured expectations in BDSM can uniquely benefit neurodivergent people. Furthermore, they tackle myths and stigmas surrounding the sexuality of neurodivergent people, offering practical tips for caretakers and loved ones. Sensitive topics and real-world examples shed light on how to navigate this nuanced space ethically and empathetically without unnecessarily infantilizing anyone.

S1E7 - MotM - Vee P1

Mistress March: welcome back. I'm Mistress March and I appreciate you tuning in to Mistress On the Mic. Today we'll be exploring how our brains and nervous systems shape our sexuality. Joining me is a dear friend of mine who happens to be the co-host of the Kinky AF podcast, a board certified behavioral analyst, and a member of a traditional BDSM leather household in a 24/7 dynamic with her Dominant.

Her name is Vee and she brings a rare lens to the intersection of neurodivergence kink and the human need for structure, control and sensation. We'll talk about the ways that people with certain neurodivergent conditions like autism and down syndrome are often infantalized and excluded from things like sexual education, conversations, and experiences.

We'll talk about the ways that this leaves people vulnerable to misunderstandings at best and often even uglier possibilities like manipulation and abuse. We will share tips for having comfortable and appropriate conversations when you're the caretaker or even a parent of a child or someone with a childlike perspective.

We'll also talk about a few of the ways that BDSM can create healthy structure and comfort for different folks, including people like me whose neurodivergence isn't obvious to most people I meet. We will even talk briefly about how sexual intimacy can still be a part of life for some adults who aren't mentally or physically capable of fully navigating it on their own.

As we navigate this complicated and taboo subject matter, we'll also discuss the broad spectrum of understanding that each person's capability for understanding, consent and ethically participating in different activities.

As a quick trigger warning, this episode does contain sensitive and potentially controversial subject matter, as well as mention of a consensual BDSM slavehood, which is distinct and separate from historical slavery and oppression.

Perhaps we'll discuss that more in a future episode. For now, let's dive in with Vee.

So Vee tell us a little bit about yourself.

Countess Vee : So I am V and I am a board certified behavior analyst, or BCBA for those that wanna play alphabet soup at home. What that means is I did a lot of schooling to learn how behavior works with all living things.

Um, unfortunately the field of applied behavior analysis, which I specialize in, has been pigeonholed into autism services, but it can be related to anything and everything that is alive. If you're breathing, you're engaging in behavior and that behavior can be affected by setting events in your environment, other people and their behaviors and all sorts of fun things.

And so I get to have the fun time of being like, yo, you know, that behavior you have, you don't like it? Cool. We can change it. And here's how

Mistress March: I love that. So we all have behaviors. Sometimes we wanna change them, right? Now let's talk a little bit about the neurodivergent kinkster. When we came up with this topic together, what brought that to mind for you?

Countess Vee : It's the population I work with all day, every day. All the neuro spicy people. In my entire career in the BCBA world, I've worked with individuals as young as two and a half up to adults that are like 23, 24. I have my own personal family who are very neurodivergent. My younger brother is on the autism spectrum as well, and he's actually, how I got involved in that, line of work and that community itself.

So, I've got very intimate knowledge of how all that works and plays into your choices, your everyday life, and how you process and experience the world around you.

Mistress March: Speaking of intimate knowledge, let's talk a little bit about your kink background. Is this something that's a part of your life

Countess Vee : all day, every day.

Mistress March: Ooh, la la

Countess Vee : I know, right? It's great. I am a collared slave in a 24/7 dynamic. My master and my dominant is my husband and we've been in a dynamic slash relationship for, gosh, 12 years now, married for six. And it's part like literally everyday life. I have my day collar on at all times. So that's a fun little thing.

Mistress March: Beautiful. We'll talk lots more about that. Right now though, let's just define the term. What does neurodivergence mean to you, and especially in the context of intimacy and kink?

Countess Vee : So neurodivergence is anything that happens in the brain and your processing and your experience of the world around you that is considered different or a deviation from the norm, or what society as a whole says this is normal.

You're very gonna meet very few people who are actually normal. There's a lot more people who are divergent in one way or another. So there's a lot of controversy within the neuros, spicy network of what is normal and should we still be using these neurodivergent or neurotypical labels? since everyone's got a little touch of the 'tism in them anyways.

'cause it's a broad spectrum.

Mistress March: You said autism is what's most commonly, applied to your field in practice, but what are some other things that would fall within that umbrella of Neurodivergence?

Countess Vee : Neurodivergence is anytime you break away from the norm or what society says should be what you do. So that could be anything from autism to A DHD, to disassociative identity disorder, schizophrenia, bipolar, even down syndrome and other developmental delays.

Mistress March: What about things like depression and anxiety?

Countess Vee : Depression and anxiety are definitely neurodivergence, but not quite at the same developmental level that the others are. But it still definitely falls under that umbrella.

Mistress March: That makes sense. So it's not so much a diagnosis as just a way of saying, Hey, everything that's different and unique.

Is that right?

Countess Vee : Mm-hmm.

Mistress March: So when did you first notice overlap between your professional understanding of behavior and your personal experiences as a ster

Countess Vee : with everything? When I first started doing my schooling, I absolutely annoyed the ever living crud out of my old head of household because I was watching and going to all of these different classes about how to nurture your submissive and how to train your submissive.

And it still focused very heavily on the corporal punishment side of things, the very serious, the very, I read this porno once, or I read this smut story and the domino is very stern and very strict, and you do one small infraction and it's 50 lashings.

And I show up going, "That's not healthy. Can we try something else?"

So that's when I started offering the thought of, what if we did a behavior modifications within dynamics from an applied behavior analysis perspective where instead of punishing the behaviors, we find appropriate alternatives to be engaging in.

Or, Hey, you wanna teach your submissive how to make your sandwich your specific way, but they've never made a club sandwich before?

How do you teach them to do it the way you want them to do? Instead of setting them up to fail by saying, "Go make me a sandwich."

And they're like, "uh, peanut butter and jelly. Here you go." Because that's what they know.

Mistress March: Sometimes the fantasy of the punishments, the discipline, all of that is not how it translates in reality.

The reality is you want a sandwich, you want a good sandwich, you don't wanna be constantly beating your partnerthat's not success normally right?

Countess Vee : Exactly. And a lot of research shows that doing more corporal punishment or punitive measures will actually deteriorate relationships.

Mistress March: Interesting. Say more.

Countess Vee : So, when we are punished, we don't typically stop the behavior. We just get better at hiding it and not doing it around the person who punishes us.

Take for example, speeding right here in Utah. It happens all the dang time. Speed limits are posted at 70 and everyone's going 90. Right?

When do you slow down?

Mistress March: When you see a cop.

Countess Vee : Exactly, exactly. Same concept here. If I'm in my dynamic and my dominant is not around you best believe I'm gonna be doing all the things that they say I'm not allowed to do.

Because the only time I get in trouble is when they're present.

So I've gotten good at hiding it versus my dominant doesn't want me doing, eating on the couch because it gets Cheeto dust all over the couch.

So instead of just punishing me with lashes and now I just hide it from them and I'm really good at vacuuming up before I know they get home.

Instead, it's, "Hey, I'm more than happy for you to have your Cheetos, but I would like you to do it here in this special spot at the table that I've put together for you."

Yeah. That way we have an alternative that is acceptable and I'm not told, just not at all.

Mistress March: So what's more effective? You gave an alternative. Let's talk a little bit about the science behind, not just that punishments are bad for relationships, but what can you do to effectively change those healthy behaviors that you wanna instill in a partner?

Countess Vee : My favorite thing is communication. Communicate, communicate, communicate.

Everything should be talked about. And this goes both ways from the right side of the slash to the left side of the slash 'cause. I love my dominants, but they're not perfect either.

There's always gonna be some kind of behavior that the submissive is gonna be like, "Actually it drives me insane when you do this thing over here."

"Can we work on that? Maybe?"

Or maybe the dominant's like, "Hey, I don't like the fact that I smoke and I wanna stop this, so help me stop."

So the conversation needs to happen first: what is the problem behavior?

Identify it, label it, come up with examples of when it happens.

Then you decide together, where do we want this to go?

Do I want to not do this at all? Is it something that should never be happening?

Say you are an emotional spender and when you get stressed out, you blow your whole bank roll on Amazon and your dominant's like, "I'm going to protect you. And financial security is important for your health as well. So we're no longer gonna be doing Amazon, what replacement behavior can we do instead when we are stressed out?"

Mm-hmm.

So instead of going to Amazon, number one, we're gonna delete it. You're not gonna be able to access it at all. We're taking your virtual credit cards off of your phone. So it's not as easy to just hit a button and go. And then we find the alternative behavior: So instead of. Shopping, it's, I'm going to go for a walk, or I'm going to call my special person and talk to them about what I'm feeling.

Or the healthiest thing: I'm gonna find myself a therapist, and I'm gonna talk to that person.

Mistress March: Yeah.

Countess Vee : And then the other person is able to support you in that journey towards the behavior you want to engage in versus the harmful behavior that you have been engaging in.

Mistress March: So how is that different, or is it different in a vanilla typical run of the mill relationship versus a kink dynamic?

Countess Vee : I will start by saying it shouldn't be any different, but unfortunately what I've seen in most vanilla relationships is that level of communication isn't happening, whereas in kink relationships, we're used to negotiating - any kink 101 class you go to is gonna touch on negotiation, and that's basically what's happening in this scenario.

You're talking about what you wanna have happen, what the intended outcome is gonna be, how you're gonna get there, what the aftercare is afterwards. So we're already in a habit of talking to our partner more so than what our vanilla counterparts would be.

And in the best of all possible worlds, it wouldn't be any different, but kink is more communication-focused, or at least it should be.

And most vanilla relationships are more shut down and within themselves, and you see a lot more fights, so more of the yelling matches of, "Oh, you did this again, you're hurting us. How could you do this?" And the other person going, "You're right, you're right. I'm a horrible person."

Mistress March: and that's not productive.

Countess Vee : No, exactly. And that's where the conversation end. Instead of going to that next level of, well, where do we go from here? What's next?

Mistress March: I like to think of it in terms of: vanilla is generally based on assumptions. It's based on a societal model of how things are supposed to be.

And you might have interpreted that model differently than your partner. You might come from different backgrounds, but in anarchy, which kink can definitely be, you've taken away those assumptions and you specifically communicate to build a new construct. You've done that intentionally and filled in the blanks instead of working from some script where you just assume the other person's script looks the same as yours.

Countess Vee : Exactly. And speaking of scripts, that ties back into the neurospicy or the neurodivergent mind.

Those minds typically thrive on structure and clear black and white. The gray area usually doesn't do well with most neurodivergent individuals. They need to know: these are my boundaries, this is where I can operate with it, and this is what's expected of me.

Yeah. This is what happens when I don't meet that expectation. This is what happens when I do meet that expectation. And kink is fantastic at setting up those boundaries and those expectations.

Mistress March: Totally. An unwritten rule doesn't do anyone any favors right? We're definitely better off when we've had a chance to hear and digest and communicate about the expectations.

Mistress March: Let's talk a little bit about sensory differences. So what are some ways that you see sensory differences, sensory needs, and so forth interfacing within kink play?

Countess Vee : Ooh, that's a great one. I know from the autistic brain: sensory can either be really good or it can be really bad.

And when it's really good, oh my goodness, it's a different world experience.

So if you're able to set up a play space with low lighting, low sound, when you actually have other party goers that are courteous and don't talk at full volume while you're doing, it's fantastic, and I've even seen some players with headphones in so that they can control the ambiance of their environment to help facilitate the experience of the overall scene.

Interesting to note this one too: most autistic brains process pain differently, so you'll either get one of two camps that I've noticed: for one, pain is not even an option, it's not on the table. So instead they go for more sensation and sensory play or service type play.

Or you've got the other camp where pain means nothing, and those are gonna be the submissives or the bottoms that you see just taking a beating and loving it. And that's finally the moment where their bodies go, oh, I can process everything I've been holding onto for the day - catharsis -, and they love it.

Mistress March: Interesting. What are some forms of play where you've seen that happen?

Countess Vee : For the catharsis side of things, a lot of heavy impact. Stuff like your crops, canes, body punches. I've seen a lot of body-combat style play. So punches, kicks, knees to the big meaty areas of the body. I'm seeing a lot of heavy floggers, even seeing it go more towards the stingy side of things. So the canes and the whips and the repetitive hits in the same area. If you've been hit multiple times in one area, you feel it.

Even the slightest little breath in that area after five to 10. You're like, okay, move on. Do something else. But those are the individuals that are like, no, keep going.

You're, you're hitting that button. Keep pressing that button until I release.

Mistress March: What happens when that release comes for someone?

Countess Vee : It can go multiple ways. I've seen the cathartic cry, I've seen the primal warrior style where they just rage out and they get it all out into the ether. I've seen the catatonic where they literally shut down and it's like their body does a factory reset, so Yeah.

Mistress March: I think there can be a big endorphin rush too. That can definitely be a part of it: getting the brain to release all of those chemicals and flood your system, but in a really, really good cleansing way.

It's a powerful experience, right?

I have some submissives that I love to play with, using sensory deprivation, so let's talk a little bit about that. Have you ever had any personal experiences with sensory deprivation and control?

Countess Vee : I have not personally. 'cause it is not my jam. If I'm left alone with my ADHD running in my head, it's a bad experience because I don't get out of my head enough to actually enjoy what's going on outside of me.

But I have plenty of friends who absolutely love it. Get them in a vac bed with noise canceling headphones and a complete blackout blinder mask. They are the happiest they have ever been. That's when they say their brain just shuts off and they're in this weird floaty abyss, and it's the best thing for them.

Mistress March: Yeah. It can be deeply meditative. How would you feel about just having one sense taken away? So one thing that I like to do is to take away or control just the sense of sight.

Countess Vee : Mm-hmm.

Mistress March: To take away all the visual distractions and all the cues that get your brain distracted and kind of leave no choice but to feel the physical sensations and lean into the music and the ambiance and whatever else is going on.

So it doesn't have to always be complete sensory deprivation where everything's taken away all at once, but sometimes just removing one piece of the clutter.

Countess Vee : I think for me personally, the one to take away would be sound. If you take away my sight, my brain goes into overactive imagination mode, and I start to envision and assume what's going on around me, and it's always gonna be negative. It's always gonna be, oh, that person's laughing at the jiggle that's happening, or that person's pointing and laughing at this one spot on my leg, or, or this person noticed this, or My hair's a mess and oh my God, they're gonna be commenting on that.

My brain goes very dark places when my sight is taken out of it. But auditory, as long as I can see my environment, I'm fine. I feel like I'm okay and I'm in control enough to enjoy it, if that makes sense.

Mistress March: Absolutely. Yeah. I think it's a great example of how different we all are too, right?

Mistress March: Everyone has their own individual mix. What are some ways that rituals, routines, and structure within a kink dynamic can help to regulate a neurodivergent nervous system?

Countess Vee : A lot of neurodivergent people also experience a certain level of anxiety. It's just an inherent part of what we go through, and anxiety is typically linked to a lack of control or feeling like there is a lack of control.

With rituals and routines, I know what to expect. It's always gonna be the same thing day in, day out. This routine doesn't change. I know I wake up, I put Sir's towel in the dryer. I have it waiting for them by the time they're out of the shower, it's nice and warm.

Or, it's time to make their favorite drink.

I know exactly how they like their drink. It's, you know, two pumps of sugar free vanilla, two pumps of s'mores, whatever it happens to be. Right? And then you serve it and you know, they're gonna have a smile on their face.

Um, same thing with like the texting of where when you're leaving a location, arriving to your location, being on the move, all those things create that stable structure that allows the brain to go, okay, I'm in control. Things are fine. This other thing could be going absolutely haywire in my everyday vanilla life at work. But this? I am grounded because I have this structure that never changes on me.

Mistress March: What are some examples you've heard of other people's dynamics that have been really fun or really interesting rituals?

Countess Vee : Ooh, uh, so some rituals that I have loved would be the, I'm jealous of the stay at home partners that are able to just be present as soon as their other partner gets home. Let me take care of your shoes, let me have this treat kinda waiting by the door, being that presence, getting to be that safe haven for your partner as soon as they walk in the door.

Oh my gosh. I love that. I love everything about it. And I'm super jealous of the people that get to do that.

Other ones would be when they just have one day a week where they engage in the ritual.

You know, their vanilla lives are so busy, they've got kids, they've got too many work expectations, and they can only come together in dynamic one day a week. So they make the most of it, and that becomes even more precious because it doesn't happen as often.

Mistress March: I love that. Those are all just really beautiful and so personal for each person, each couple, each partnership.

Okay.

Mistress March: How can Doms and subs adapt their safe words and their aftercare, their communication for ADHD or going nonverbal, or what are some accommodations that people can put into their play?

Countess Vee : So I'm, I'm gonna speak from personal experience. When my dominant and I were very baby kinksters and getting into things, we totally fell into the trap of "There's one true way."

You know, this author over here said, you must approach your dynamic this way and only this way. And you must only speak to your Dominant this way. Or you can only speak to your submissive that way in these times, blah, blah, blah. Mm-hmm. And for me, I found it to be disjointed and not as connected as I wanted it to be.

And so we finally, after months of that chaos and that tension that was created, stopped, and we're like, why isn't this working? And well, because you said this. Yeah, but I meant that. Cool. So can you say this instead?

All of us know what phrases work better. Like the tried and true "We need to talk."

I'm sure every single listener just puckered a little bit. 'cause all of us have an emotional reaction to that one phrase, right? So if, you know, I react very strongly to this specific phrase or this tone, I can then take that to my partner and go, "I understand that you're not intending for this to be how I'm reacting, but this is how I'm reacting. Can we try this instead?"

In our case it was, well you're saying that, that you're not happy with X, Y, and Z. And it's the words of "I'm not happy with" that For me, immediately put me on the defense of going, well, but I'm a good person. How could you not be happy with me? And of course, I'm not doing it wrong. I'm just not doing it your way.

So instead it was, can you word it as, Hey, I wanna try something different. That's a lot less attacking towards me and I'm very open to it.

Yeah.

Another example that I recently shared with a group of people at one of our, discussion nights was. I'm sure I have a little bit of oppositional defiant disorder in me.

Because I'm not your typical submissive. I'm not the one that's always gonna be like, yes, of course, to any dominant that's in my space. You've gotta earn that submission, and we were listening to a book recently where they were like, oh, the authoritarian, I'm gonna do this, this, and this, and I'm gonna demand that you do these things.

And I was like, that's the worst way to get me to do anything.

If you were to be domineering towards me, I become the biggest brat. And I go: guess what I'm not gonna do? We'll sit here all night. I am that stubborn. It's fine.

But if you were to say, oh, this one thing would make me so happy, best believe I'm jumping up immediately and I'm making sure it's getting done.

So it's all in how you phrase it.

Mistress March: And it depends on the person. It depends on the person. Some people wanna be ordered around, they want it very clear. I think some people might even find that version passive aggressive.

Countess Vee : Oh yeah.

Mistress March: But sometimes it's the opposite, sometimes you find that to be the non-abrasive version that speaks to you. Right?

Countess Vee : Exactly. And you have the responsibility of knowing yourself so that you can share that with your partner to be successful in this dynamic, 'cause it's a two-way street.

Mistress March: Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. Definitely.

Mistress March: Are there signs of sensory overwhelm or flooding that you should be aware of when you're playing with kink?

Countess Vee : Absolutely. And of course each person is gonna be different. Just everything is gonna be with that caveat. Some people, they're gonna shut down, so people who are normally very bubbly and very talkative, all of a sudden going mute or silent: That could be a sign of sensory overload. Some people will start pacing, some people will have fidgets.

Some people you'll see them start picking at their nails or picking at their face, playing with the hair a little bit. Some people will literally just walk away and you're like, okay. They were removing themselves from an overstimulating situation.

So it depends on the person and when you start to see that shift in how they're engaging with you, that's the first sign to check in.

And that can happen before the full blown sensory overload really takes effect, so it could be something like, the lights are too bright and you see them starting to squint and you see them kind of rubbing around their eyes a little bit.

That's the time to check and be like, Hey, , did you want me to turn down the light a little bit for you? Is it too much? Do you have sunglasses with you? Maybe? Do you want a hat? And they're able to then respond and go, oh, actually, yeah, that's great. I didn't even realize that I wasn't enjoying this because sometimes our bodies react before we actually process that we don't like a thing.

And then others, it'll be the sound. So if you see them kind of shirking away from a loud noise or a specific pitch, that's when you'd be like, Hey, I noticed your body did this. Where are you at? Are you okay? Do you need me to modify anything? Those kinds of signals. So watch the body. The body's gonna tell you a lot.

Mistress March: What about during play, like during a scene? What are some things you can watch out for?

Countess Vee : During a scene? The tensing up, especially if they're attached to a cross or a bench or something, and they can't just get up and walk away on their own. Typically, our bodies will process discomfort by tensing up and trying to become smaller. So watching the shoulders rise up to the ears, watching the neck kind of contract in on yourself, watching the hands go from relaxed to claws to fists. Those types of things.

Watch the feet. Are the toes curling? Are we seeing the arching and the getting up on the tippy toes? Those can be signs that the body is having a difficult time processing what's currently happening. Now that doesn't mean you have to stop. It just means maybe change things up a little bit. Hit in a new place. Hit with something new. Change it so that the body has a chance to get away from that old stimulus and experience something new.

Mistress March: Absolutely.

Countess Vee : Or sometimes it's just a pause, a check-in that hand on the shoulder or on the small of the back being like, I'm right here. Just breathe. Take those deep breaths. 'cause a lot of us neurodivergents just like we forget to drink our water, we forget to breathe. Sometimes it happens. So that reminder of, I need you to breathe.

You're gonna be a good girl, a good boy, a good thempst, and you're gonna breathe for me. And just take that moment to recenter them and then you can keep playing.

Mistress March: Yeah. I love the term a good little nugget. I like that. Yes. There's so many fun ones you can play with.

Mistress March: Um, what myths or stigmas do you see around people who are neurodivergent when it comes to sexuality in general?

Countess Vee : The first one that comes to mind is that individuals who are neurodivergent couldn't possibly be sexual beings. You see it a lot, especially with autism, down syndrome and other developmental delays that, no, no, this person will always be an infant.

They'll always be too innocent and childlike. I shouldn't teach them about sex. That's no, never.

And that's the biggest harm we can do to that population. There's so much research that shows that those populations are actually at a greater risk for sexual harm, abuse, neglect, higher rates of pregnancies, higher rates of STIs, because no one took the time to teach them that they are sexual beings.

The reality is when they get older, their bodies are still gonna react. It's a biological function. They're gonna get erections, they're gonna get the tingles down below. They're going to explore themselves and discover that it feels good.

So we should educate.

Mistress March: Yeah. So how can that be approached then?

Countess Vee : So the first thing is making sure that the adults in their lives take the shame and the taboo out of it. Talking about sex does not mean you are engaging in a sexual act. And I think that's where a lot of that disconnect happens. A lot of people go, oh, if I'm talking about sex and I'm doing something so bad and Oh, I shouldn't be talking about it because it's a private thing. No one should ever know about it.

Or we give silly names to our anatomy like cookie, right?

There's a instance that, I don't know if it's factual or if it's an anecdote, but a young girl was telling people, my uncle ate my cookie. And people are talking to her going, oh, I'm so sorry that your cookie's gone, do you want another cookie? And what she was trying to say was, my uncle is touching me inappropriately. He's touching my vagina, he's eating me out. But the only word she was ever given by her caregivers was, that's your cookie. And so the people who could have helped her didn't know that they needed to help her because of the words that she had to express. So that's why I'm always a big advocate: with your kids, teach them the proper anatomy. It's just terminology. There's nothing sexual about saying penis, vagina, vulva, breasts. We should take the stigma out of it.

Mistress March: And if you are teaching someone, a young person or a person with, neurodivergence, if you are uncomfortable, they're gonna pick up on that. If you're ashamed, they're gonna pick up on that. You've gotta work through that, and get comfortable to speak in a comfortable, approachable way, because ignoring these topics only does harm.

Countess Vee : Exactly. I mean, you've got kids where they don't learn about consent because, "Oh, well that's a sex thing, right?"

There was a news article a couple years ago about an individual with Down Syndrome who was fixated on feet and he actually got arrested and charged with lewd acts in public for obsessing over women's feet and trying to touch them and pleasing himself on public transit because he was watching all these women with their bare feet during the summer.

And it broke my heart reading that because all I could think about was this is an individual that we failed. There's an entire society for foot fetishists where it's okay.

If this person had just been educated that, there's a site called FetLife, and there are plenty of people out there who will consent to let you touch their feet, look at their feet, enjoy their feet, pleasure yourself while their feet are in your face, they would've been able to get that need of theirs met without any negative repercussions, but because that individual was seen as too infantile.

Now they're in trouble.

Mistress March: Yeah. And again, to teaching ourselves and the people around us that there's nuance and understanding the right time, the right place, the right people that you can open up to about these things.

And then of course, also understanding how to read the room and know when and where it is and is not okay to do certain things.

Countess Vee : Like case in point, one of the kids that I work with had a hard time recognizing private at home bathroom from public bathroom and would get in trouble for pleasuring themselves in a public bathroom.

And for some neurodivergent individuals, you have to be that specific. It can't just be do it in private.

Mistress March: Yeah.

Countess Vee : Because technically in a public bathroom, I've got stall walls and a door people should not be able to see me.

If they're looking at me, they're being pervy and I don't like it.

Mistress March: Yeah. There's a different problem. Right.

Countess Vee : Being more specific about where it's acceptable, where it's not and how to do it. And then the most important part, how to take care of yourself afterwards.

I remember when my younger brother, unfortunately had his first, "Oh no. Big sissy walked in on me" moment. It was more of a, "Okay, it's fine. Just close the door." And he was panicked. He was like, "Oh my gosh. V I'm so sorry." I was like, "You're fine. Finish what you're doing, and then go take a shower, get clean, and then we'll talk about it."

And so it became a learning opportunity of, okay, you're gonna do your business, but always make sure you clean yourself up afterwards, because whether you're using lotion or lube.

And we made sure to get him the good stuff so that he wasn't hurting himself. It was, you can give yourself an STI if you don't clean yourself properly afterwards, you don't have to have a sexual partner to get an STI. And immediately he was like, what? I thought that was only from another person. I was like, no, you can get it just from poor hygiene practices.

So taking the time just to explain that too will help people.

Mistress March: So where can people go for help with navigating these conversations? Because I think this unfortunately has not been normalized in society. So if you're a parent or a caregiver, where can we go to learn more about how to anticipate these conversations, how to open these conversations, and then how to navigate them?

Countess Vee : So there are some fantastic resources on the Planned Parenthood website for teens, for parents, and for educators.

They've got lesson plans, they've got visual aids, they've got videos that you can watch that talk about the biological assigned to birth anatomies. Right? And then they talk about specifically the sex organs. So the first ones are, here's puberty, here's how your body is gonna change. It's fine.

Then the other one is, now this is your private region. Here's what you need to know about how it's going to react to certain things. When it swells with blood, what are the sensations you're going to experience? All of that stuff.

They've also got a couple of really good resources for teens who are coming out as part of the LGBTQIA+ community.

They've got a whole lesson focused on consent like what the definition is, how you gain it, when it can be revoked, and how to navigate around it in regular, everyday situations as well as sexual encounters.

Mistress March: That's fantastic. It sounds like Planned Parenthood has so many resources. They do.

And I'm guessing, are they all free?

Countess Vee : They are all free on their website.

Mistress March: Wonderful. That's an amazing resource to know about.

Mistress March: For individuals who have very significant neurodivergence or conditions, it's one thing to talk about sexuality when it's alone, when it's solo, like masturbation and self-exploration and pleasure.

How can you appropriately navigate understanding who to interact with and how, in terms of sharing sexual experiences, how do we find, those appropriate lines and boundaries that don't infantalize people, but also are not inappropriate or abusive?

Countess Vee : Fantastic. In my opinion, all of those conversations should start with the consent talk.

Everything should be centered around consent, period.. That way the individual knows that they have a right to say yes or no to who comes into their environment, and that other people have a right to say yes or no to them being in their environment, that you have to get that consent before anything else happens.

Then talk about the emotional side of things. 'cause most people that are neurodivergent and more heavily impacted on the autism spectrum or with intellectual disabilities, they don't know how to make that connection naturally. They have to be taught and it's okay.

You see Johnny over there and you're feeling a certain type of way, and you're like, I have got to meet this person. I have to make sure they know I exist. How do you approach them?

You walk up and you say, hi, I'm so and so. I saw you from over there. And so it's giving them an opportunity to practice those skills, practice the communication in a neutral environment with peers, with other adults.

That way they're getting. All kinds of people and all kinds of reactions. And teaching them how to have that reciprocal back and forth. Then from that basic, here's how you just make a human connection education, you can dive deeper into romantic attachment.

So some people are going to fall madly in love with people. They're gonna feel it so strong, you feel it's almost stalkery, right? But that's how deeply they feel. And they don't see those social barriers of, "Hey, remember we don't know that person", so we should just watch 'em and go, I love you, right? As soon as you see them, right?

But then you've got the others who are going to be more asexual. Other people just don't interest them. They're so involved in their own world, their own experience that they're like, eh, if you're around, that's fine. I'm not gonna be mad that you're here in my space, but I'm not gonna pursue you.

So for those that want to pursue others and want to have that romantic attachment.

Then it's the next level of communication. So talking about the personal things, getting to know the other person's interests, learning how to have those negotiations of what do you wanna achieve in your life? What do you want out of a relationship? How can I meet you there? And then going, I am the type of person that I don't do lots of cuddles and hugs, but you say you need lots of cuddles and hugs.

Are we going to be compatible? And sometimes it really is that, that basic and simple.

It's like, you like hugs. I don't, okay, bye. We're not gonna work.

And others it's like, well hold on. I could work with that. Maybe I can hold your hand for like five minutes and then put my hand in my lap and decompress a little bit and then stick my foot up against your thigh for five minutes and then pull it back and decompress.

So learning how to work with other people is also gonna play a big part in that.

Mistress March: Is there somewhere that you should draw the line about a person who has neurodivergence or has a cognitive deficit or has a condition, that it wouldn't be appropriate?

Or maybe you're not their caretaker or their teacher. Like how can you understand, where to engage and where not to engage.

I wanna be totally radical and say, Hey, everyone should be fully sexually liberated. But I do think that there are also some people where it would not be appropriate to speak much less act in a sexual way. So how, how can you tell?

Countess Vee : So the most important thing that we always focus on is who can give consent? What is required to be able to say, I am of sound, body, and mind, and I am capable of saying yes or no to these things.

The best way to do that is to ask them, do you know what this means? Do you know what that is? And if they go, no. That's a moment to educate and teach. I'm always going to be on the side of, give them as much information as they can handle in the most appropriate way.

If I've got an individual who physically is 21, but mentally they're maybe five or six. I'm not gonna say, this is your vulva, this is his penis, and this is how it's going to happen, and you're gonna get all the friction. I'm not gonna go into that level of detail because they're not going to be able to process it the same way.

Instead it's going to be, very much that childhood conversation of the birds and the bees. So when two people care deeply about each other, they're gonna want to be physically intimate with each other. And here are ways that it can happen.

And I'm a big proponent of all couplings. So male, male, female, female, transgender, all of it. Should be represented in all ways because we don't know how they're going to identify and we shouldn't limit them to what we think the binary should be, right? Mm-hmm. Um, so still give them cognitive-level appropriate education first and foremost, because without it, they're at risk.

Because just because we are conscientious human beings going, Hey, I don't wanna force this on you and make it awkward, some random creeper out there is gonna go, this is perfect. I found my next victim and I'm going to use this as long as I can.

Mistress March: Yeah. Unfortunately that's very much the case. So I'm sure it's hard to define, but would you say that there is some line, and it's on a case by case basis that can make a distinction between someone who is capable of consenting and participating in whatever activity and some people who may not be on a level where they can consent and participate in something ethically?

Countess Vee : Absolutely. It requires conversation with the person. So if you're asking questions and the answers you get are more mature, it shows a deeper level of thought than just that surface level of "Do you like this? Yes."

Can you use more words? Can you express to me what you like about it, what you don't like about it?

That's the big part. I need to know that individuals have the ability to say no and to say what they don't want, not just what they do want.

That's actually one of the things that I really focus on in my personal practice is I teach all my kids the power of no and advocating for themselves. We are not trying to build little mindless automatons.

I want this kid to advocate for themselves, period. Because a child who can advocate is an adult who can advocate. And when you can advocate for yourself, you have the ability to consent and withdraw that consent at any time. And that's the most important factor is understanding that just because I said yes once does not mean that yes is forever.

Mistress March: Are there some individuals who don't have the power or the ability to make those decisions themselves? Or maybe there's someone else who has the power or the right or the ability to speak on their behalf?

Countess Vee : There absolutely are. It's called a conservatorship and typically the only way to get that is to have a doctor's note and a legally binding document that says that this particular individual is not of sound mind to be able to make life decisions for themselves. It requires a family member or a very close, trusted caretaker to be the one that says, Hey, I'm here to protect you.

No, you cannot sign away your grandma's house to this random person you just met because they said they love you. Or no, you can't make medical decisions for yourself because you would choose to go off all of your medication that is helping you. So those types of things.

And in the sexual sense, yes, technically that conservator would be the one who's able to say, yes, you can have sexual encounters, or No, you can't. And there are some, sex workers actually who specialize in providing services to individuals with conservatorships.

Mistress March: Oh, wow.

Countess Vee : Um, and it's transactional. It is 100%. You have a physical need.

This is a person that's in the body of like a 45-year-old, but mentally about an 8-year-old.

But the needs are still there. They still have that sexual desire. They want to do these things. So it's facilitated in as clinical a way as possible. It takes away the predatory nature. There's nothing that's, oh, I'm gonna keep, like making you pay me.

It's not like those, it's not manipulative, and it's very much that their conservator is going, Hey, this person has physical needs for their physical sexual health, they deserve to have an opportunity to be sexually active, and this is the most clinical way I can make it happen because those sex workers are professionals and they're not going to create an unrealistic expectation in their client.

There's just gonna be, Hey baby, I'm here to meet a need.

Mistress March: Yeah. It's a service provider, not an abusive person taking advantage of someone.

What an interesting and complex topic, wow. I feel like I could come up with more questions forever.

Mistress March: We've really only scratched the surface, but thank you so much.

I think that's all the time we have for this right now.

But I hope you'll join us next time for part two of my interview with V, where we dive deeper into what does and does not work when it comes to behavioral conditioning and modification through the lens of our personal experiences with kink as well as her professional expertise.

Countess Vee : Oh, absolutely. Yes.

Mistress March: Wonderful. Thank you so much for being here. Where can people find more information or follow up?

Countess Vee : Feel free to reach out to me if you are on FetLife. I am at, Countess V on fetlife. You can reach out to me through the Kinky AF podcast. I'm a co-host on that one as well. So KinkyAFpodcast@gmail.com is a great way to get in touch with me. That's more direct.

Mistress March: To reach me. Mistress March, search Mistress March like the month, or RadioactiveMarch on Instagram, Fetlife, or Google. or send an email to hello@MistressOnTheMic.com. Till next time, darling. Stay freaky.