In this episode, Trisha interviews Emily Rogers - a Leadership and Transitions Coach based in New Zealand. Emily has experienced many location transitions - from small town country South Australia to some of the biggest cities in the world, India, China and Taiwan. She has learnt to thrive in each of these shifts and now shares the skills and strategies she developed in these experiences with individuals and organisations in transition.

They discuss the power of questions to help people to reflect, to move beyond judgement and consider other possibilities. Emily shares how the process of Action Learning has been a significant development piece for her in her coaching.

The discussion also references William Bridges book Transitions: Making Sense of Life's Changes

You can connect with Emily on LinkedIn and listen more to her in her podcast series available via her website where you can also sign up for her newsletter.

I would like to acknowledge the Tharawal people, the Aboriginal people of Australia, whose country I live and work on. I would like to pay my respects to their elders, past, present, and emerging and thank them for sharing their cultural knowledge and awareness with us.

Hi there everyone. I'm Trisha Carter and organizational psychologist and explorer of cultural intelligence. I'm on a quest to discover what enables us to see things from different perspectives, especially different cultural perspectives, and why. Sometimes it's easier than others to experience those moments of awareness. The shifts in thinking. As those of you who have listened to some of the earlier episodes will be aware, Cultural Intelligence CQ the capability to be effective in situations of diversity is made up of four areas motivational, knowledge, metacognitive, and behavioural, and it can help us as we move across cultures.

Today, I'm speaking with someone who has moved across cultures from Australia to New Zealand to India to China and to New Zealand again. And in her work, she has also transitioned across industries and across a variety of roles within those industries to where she is today as a business owner in transition and leadership coach. Welcome to my friend and colleague, Emily Rogers.

Thank you so much, Trisha.

Okay, Emily, what did I miss out of that list of transitions?

there was Hong Kong and Taiwan as well. It's all good.

And somewhere in there, there was motherhood.

Yes, yes. Yeah.

And all of the difficult things, around Covid, there was some very interesting transitions and challenges there. Yeah.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

So a lot of personal experiences that have equipped you for the work that you're doing.

Yes, absolutely.

And I haven't actually put in there. But the roles that you've been working in have been human resources focused. but leadership and development and other human resources roles among those.

Yes. Yep, yep. So lots of my background was in human resources, two senior levels. And then with the countries we were living in, I wasn't able to continue working in a traditional sense. Hence, starting my business.

Yeah. Yeah. So, Emily, just to go to the standard questions that we ask all our guests, what is the culture other than the culture you grew up in that you have learned to love and appreciate? And actually, as we start. Could you clarify, because I never actually made it clear which culture you did grow up in.

You know, this is something that I find really interesting and I was thinking about in preparation for today. I actually grew up in country South Australia, and we're talking the village I lived in or near a population of about 50 people, the nearest town 1200 people and the nearest city a million people.

Right.

There's no rhyme or reason why I then subsequently moved and thrived in these massive metropolises. And throughout the years I. Yeah.

Oh, that is interesting.

Oh, when you think about culture, you know, it was monoculture, mono language. You know, nobody looked different. how that then meant, you know, Hong Kong, Mumbai, Delhi, Chongqing, massive cities. But I not only lived, I thrived in those cities. So.

Yeah, what what was it that you loved about that environment?

The people. Yeah, it has to be the people. Absolutely. And I was thinking about was there an absolute moment, a shift for me. And I've jumped ahead, haven't I?

That’s fine! Jump ahead.

Sorry. So I didn't think of it as a singular moment, but I think, you know, having my daughters in India was a foundational shift in me.

And in terms of love finding, you know, living and experience that culture or loving another culture, having my babies on the shores of India, you know, I think there's forever a piece of my heart going to be attached, to India and the people I met in the people who supported me through that during that time. In terms of shift, I think it was understanding that we, you know, into what the way we raise our children as an example is different, but actually the outcomes that we want, the values that we share are the same.

And so the people that I was relying on who became my other family, were the locals that I'd met when I first arrived and still are, you know, really, really important in my life. And I think, you know, when you when I say I grew up in country South Australia, there's no reason why I should have loved this.

It was about the people. It was about the value connection that we had and those shared experiences through our values and and what we were doing at the time.

And I guess from a, you know, from a person to person experience, women giving birth is something that we do, we do automatically connect. when you've been through that experience, you know, you can identify with feel for even somebody whose situation might be very different to yours. But there are aspects of it that are universal and.

Yeah, and then also there are aspects that are extremely different. And you feel for people in those differences. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah, absolutely. Yeah.

I remember when I had my daughter, I had a moment when I realized what life must have been like for my mother. Obviously, I was extremely selfish because I'd never really realized this before. because she gave birth to seven children. And I remember with my little one holding her and thinking, oh my God, mum did this seven times.

It does give you a new appreciation. It's it is really interesting. You know, at my obstetrician in Mumbai, she actually said to me afterwards she treated me like a daughter. And she said to me after she said, I can't believe how you’ve handled this because they have forty they have 40 days confinement. The women didn't do anything after giving birth.

That afternoon I was up walking around the hospital corridors with baby on the shoulder, you know? And physically, my recovery was so different to the women who don't do anything. And so she's like, I think I need to bring some of your, experience and your values to the other people I work with, which were locals.

So, yeah, it is certainly a shared, a shared way we come together and, you know, it didn't matter who I was interacting with, the fact that I was there with the baby. Yeah, it changes everything.

And as you say, everyone's hopes and dreams for the future of their children is a universal as well.

Yeah, yeah.

Yeah. There's a those are good thought for us to think about as we, you know, as we build relationships and as we, you know, acknowledge difference. There's also positivity’s in recognizing the similarities that we walk together on.

yeah.

You work a lot with individuals and with organizations as they're facing transition. So let's talk first about the individuals. What are the challenges or opportunities that they are most often facing, and what are the shifts that you find they are needing to make?

The individuals I work with tend to be mid life, looking for those promotions, career changes, maybe they’ve hit the heart of their career and then gone. Now what? Is this all there is? And so I spend time tapping into, you know, their values, their passions. You know, what is that that is really going to light them up for this second act, for the next stage of their life.

And I think, you know, the common thing is when we get to a transition and it doesn't matter whether it's, you know, a physical transition or a, a life transition, we tend to get to a point where we are wondering what what it's going to be, where is it going next? And so these questions start happening in our minds, and we start to the beat ourselves up because we think we're not good enough.

I shouldn't be thinking this. I should know what I want. I should be, you know, and so even if it's a transition across countries, you know, we tend to get in our head and we worry about, you know, am I doing enough? It's going to be okay. That was the impact to my family. What's going to happen. It the all these questions they start to spiral.

And so people reach out to work with me on an individual sense when they're really feeling stuck and they don't know how to move forward. And the first thing I always share is the way you're feeling right now is completely normal. And it's okay. And we're going to move forward from here.

Yeah. So recognizing the first shift is probably recognizing that what I might be judging myself for or thinking is abnormal is actually normal not to be worried about. And it is the experience. Remember, Bridges work, you know, the book transitions like, you know, published quite some time ago, but sort of a bit of a seminal piece, I think.

And he spoke about that, I can't remember even the name of the phase that he gave it, but he talked about it being like being in a washing machine. And just the way you ask those questions, it was like, bom bom, bom bom in that sense of you just going around and around and things are battering you.

And so, yeah, it is that that point of this is what many people go through and it's not something to think, oh, why am I so weak that I'm experiencing this or judging yourself because of it?

Yeah. And I think, you know, we always ask our kids, what do you want to be when you grow up? It's such an unfair question because actually, you know, we all have these phases in life where we have to shift, where something has to change, and, you know, the fact we're asking our kids those questions is so unfair because we don't have the answers either.

Yeah. And so I often talk to people about thinking about the next period of time in their lives. That makes sense. So is it until your kids finish school? Is it for the next five years? Is it for the next two years because you're in a location for two years or. Just answer the question for that period of time.

Don't try and say for the rest of my life.

Which is incredibly freeing when you do that isn't it?

Exactly. Yeah. Exactly.

Yeah. I'm, I'm thinking about you know, maybe there's if there's people in location shift, does that change. Are the challenges different?

I started doing all of my work in the space of helping people move and yeah, specifically, expat women, the the wife, the the the wives of the spouses of the assignees. And it has morphed beyond that. but actually, no, there’s no difference because the work I'm doing is the same. It's just being able to ask really good questions of yourself.

and being able to ask if it's like a country shift, then being able to ask the questions of yourself and where you're going and the support that I provide. So I'm jumping all over the place here, but the support I've provided to the organizations who are moving people is very, focused on the questions because I don't get involved in location specific information at all.

I’m empowering people through the ability to ask the questions and coming back to if I can ask these questions and get the answers I need then I'm going to be okay. So whether it's a life transition or a physical transition, being able to dig deep and ask questions, it will always carry you forward rather than assuming which we all know with cultural intelligence.

It's such a dead end when you start assuming things, with any transition, if you start assuming things, that's where you're going to have tough times. So being able to ask questions, stay curious if

Stay curious.

Yes! That's the right word.

So when it comes to organizations, you reference them. And we know that you work with organizations as well. Looking at transitions that they are going through. How is the process different and and what is the process that you go through when you're working with an organization?

So at the moment, I'm focusing on supporting organizations who are moving people across countries and supporting them through, specifically those who have families. because it is the partner or the wife who often doesn't settle. And an assignment is going to end badly is because the partner hasn't settled in location and they want to return home early, or the compromise on their family life has been too great because they haven't settled and they want to return early.

so the support that I provide is, is multi levelled. but starting with the focus on well-being and it's for the assignee and the partner to come together in a workshop format and to talk about different topics that will support their emotional and mental well-being, while on assignment. Things like, you know, managing relationships in location, but also from a distance back home, thinking about what you can do in your relationship because the tension can be so great.

And, living abroad can put a spotlight on things that probably wouldn't always get a spotlight. And so understanding that that tension and little tactics to help you manage through so that you can support each other, through those things. So there's multi levels of support, the workshops being the foundation and then other options as well around online courses and coaching and things as well depending on the person and the, the, the seniority.

There's a number of things leaping into my mind here. One of them is around the, Australian workplace, standards around psychosocial hazards and poor poorly managed change is one of those hazards that is showing up quite often, in research that I've seen. And I think when organizations try and achieve transitions for people within the organization, often they don't do so well.

And I'm wondering what you think might be, you know, the reasons that organizations don't manage transitions, don't manage change so well.

You know, I think it comes back to the same challenge. It’s when they assume too much, when you assume that you understand somebody else's perspective, you are setting yourself up to fail. And so you've got to be able to ask questions. You've got to be able to come up with that position of curiosity. It doesn't matter what sort of change it is.

Maybe it's a restructure. Maybe you are moving people. Maybe you're, changing your brand, assuming that everybody A. understands and B. is aligned with what you think. it's just never going to end well. If you can come from a position of what do you think? What experience have you got? How do you feel about this? You know, if you could come from that position, even if it doesn't change the direction you're going, if you can come from it by a position of curiosity, inclusion and understanding, then you know that you can then wrap around and support people, because you got to understand where the blocks are going to be.

You're going to understand where the challenges about the where the red flags are. You can start to put things in place that are going to help you through that process. And so it doesn't transition is transition, changes is change, shifts are shifts. It doesn't matter what it is. You've got to come from a position of asking questions. And it has to be at all levels.

And I'm wondering if, you know, we have we've had so much change within organizations in the last five years. and I'm wondering if it's perhaps easier for people, you know, who are responsible for that change to think, you know, I've been here, I've done that. I know, I mean, this is a temptation I think we all fall into.

I know the risks here. I know it's like I know what people's needs are. I know, and and making their assumptions that you're referencing because of that knowledge and experience that people have. and yet right now, we probably have different generation in the workplace who than those who were here five years ago, who come with their own needs and issues.

And so, yeah, so making those assumptions is a is a real risk.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And if you think about what we're seeing in trends at the moment, you know, the is it a greater population or is it just more diagnosis. You know the neurodivergent. Yes. That's becoming more apparent in our world now. You know, just because it worked two years ago doesn't mean it's going to work now. If people are neurodivergent, if they are coming at things differently, if they're coming from a different culture, if they're, you know, even if they grew up in the country, you grew up in, the city.

It doesn't have to be complex. But it will mean people come at things differently. So what worked two years ago and you think, oh, you know, that was I mean what was that 2022 coming out of Covid then. You know it may have worked then, the people have changed in those last two years. And if we don't acknowledge those internal shifts that people have had, then how can we support them through any change, transition process?

And I'm thinking about you in the process of, of coaching someone or facilitating that sort of discussion within an organization. and how you might personally shift in your approach, because there’s so often when you are asking questions and and let's face it, we might have a little theory in mind about how they're going to respond. Yeah. So what do you do to be effective in that?

I guess, to hold those lightly and to be open to shifting and, you know, you know, doing a 180 on what you were going, what you were going to take a group or an individual with and suddenly taking them in a different direction.

You know, I think I've really learned I mean, we've moved every two years. Different countries too, different. You know, I it's been a lot of change for us as a family. But I think I've learned to never accept what I think is happening on the surface. and to always try and ask the questions. I actually just started to contract 15 hours a week with an organization, a book supply company.

So I'm in my happy place, surrounded by books all day.

Excellent.

I've spent the last, oh you know, six weeks, you know, just trying to understand more about the people who are there, what's been happening, what's worked in the past, what hasn't worked, why they think it didn't work. I mean, I got a lot of experience in human resources. I can make massive assumptions here. But the individuals who I'm working with, I'm just trying to give a practical example, you know, asking them about.

So, you know, we're in this situation now and this is what I can see is happening. Tell me about what you see. What have, what what could, I was working with my manager the other day and I said to him tell you what you see, tell me what has worked for you. What do you, what do you see being your role.

Tell me what your achievements have been. What's the biggest challenge. And it might to her seem obvious, but actually, what I uncovered was this array of things that I hadn't actually thought about. And so I'm frantically writing notes for myself, but she's looking at me like, you know, the ideas you're sparking. I said, it's really, really great.

I could have come in here and gone up is what would be standard. This is what we need to look at. But actually I by asking the questions. And so I think the experience that I've had, you know, as I said, I’m a small town country girl, but I've thrived in some of the bigger cities. I think the reason is because of the people.

But being able to understand, connect come from a position of inquiry and curiosity. and always carrying that with me, it becomes a natural skill and a natural way for me. I mean, my husband gets very frustrated when we go out socially because I ask lots of questions. It’s – not everybody wants to talk about that stuff. I, they will tell me if they don't want to talk about that,

I'll pick that up. Yes.

But I find out lots because that’s who I am, that's what I do and love. And so I think when I'm, when I was thinking about today and the conversation, I think, you know, if we could all come with that curiosity, that position of inquiry, you know, all the barriers in life, all the tension in life, it doesn't have to be there because we're making assumptions.

If we stop making the assumptions, we get a better understanding. We get a better connection. Be it, you know, world peace is possible.

Absolutely. And I'm thinking back to other people I've interviewed and they sort of the professions they come from and a how they talk about how there's usually this way, you know, people will usually, you know, from Rick the lawyer last week talking about, you know, people who are normally lawyers who normally come at things like this and then Monique the psychologist will go, well, your people will think anxiety, I've got to offer this, this.

And so it's quite the opposite to what you're saying. Each of them were saying that isn't the right way to be. They're saying we've got to be more than that. And you are exemplifying that in such a beautiful way with the with the way that you're coming with almost that cloak of openness, and, and curiosity to, to open up other people.

Yeah.

Which perhaps for some people, you know, we might find our qualifications or our profession as something that gives us safety and security. And so we might find that as being, oh, I've got the answers, you know, but in reality we need to be able to let go of that.

Yes. And I think, you know, the more the world shifts, you know, the more when you're talking with Rick about, you know, what's the impact of AI and all these things. The world is shifting. You know, it is it is shifting at a really, really fast pace. Now, if we keep making assumptions, if we keep, thinking we know where it's going and what's going to happen, then we are missing out on the beauty and the opportunity of what could be, as well.

And I think if we can again see, as you said, shed that cloak, you know, just be with ourselves, but ask questions and it works internally as well. You know, if you ask yourself good questions, we get that that own personal growth as well. And and being prepared to say, oh, I wasn't expecting that answer. Okay.

You know, that's how I started my business. That's how I, you know, got to this point myself as well, because we have to be able to do that. We have to be able to, to, to come within. I actually did some training, when I was living in India with an organization called WIAL the World Institute for Action Learning, and I was an action learning coach.

And, you know, Mike Marquardt is an amazing guy, the founder of the company, amazing guy. And he's got this meeting with questions framework and, you know, open questions versus closed questions. And the different types of questions you can use. Like, I think, you know, doing that training and being a coach and a facilitator, knowing that there's so many different types of questions as well, I think can be a bit of a, a personal, you know, secret weapon.

So to speak, in terms of, you know, allowing people to share because, when you start to say that people come with their qualifications and their professions, not everyone actually likes being asked questions either. And so you've got to be able, you know, some people think, well, you know, I'm the whatever. Who are you to ask me? I just would like your opinion actually, you know, like just to to soften it somehow rather than, you know, always,

You know, I'm a bit bombastic sometimes. I do have to find ways to combat it differently as well, because not everybody wants to share an opinion or an idea. And so being able to allow create the space and allow that to happen is really important as well.

Yeah. And that that's brilliant. And I'm going to find reference to the training you've just spoken about. And I'll put that in the show notes for people, because that sounds fascinating as well. I'll be looking into it too.

Action learning is a process. So it's it's a process where you come together small groups of 4 to 8 people for 45 minutes. And the rule is you have to ask questions. Nobody can speak unless they’re answering a question. So it it's a problem solving process that's really, really powerful.

I have heard about it from a superficial perspective but never dived into it in the way you have. So I'm really interested to hear that it's had such an impact on you and been so helpful. I'm also, you sort of triggered a thought for me that, because you're talking about what the way society is and the way the world is, and that's why it's so important to take this stance, and it sort of feels like, you know, when we talk about transitions, we often talk about people being in that liminal space, the space between, stability almost, or the space between what was and what could be.

And it feels like, you know, the world is, is very much in that sort of a space and that people are trying to push forward to get to certainty and I'm not sure that it's something that we can be hoping for. But it's going a bit a bit deep.

But it is really interesting, Trisha, because, you know, I was talking with, someone the other day and I was talking about a new AI tool that I'm playing around with at the moment and she said, oh, she said, that will do me out of a job. No, no, it won't, it will make your job absolutely amazing actually.

You know, I can imagine you doing this and this. Oh, I hadn't thought about it that way.

Right. Yeah. Yeah. Shifting. Shifting. You shifted her perspective?

Yes. But it's just a matter of as I keep coming back to it, you know, that position of inquiry if if the world is shifting. It is. The world is shifting. If we want to try and understand where it might go, you have to come from a position inquiry. You can't not jump forward. You can't find that certainty.

Absolutely. Emily, it's been wonderful speaking with you. I will put in the show notes, your LinkedIn, connections so that anyone who wants to can connect with you. Is there anywhere else you'd like me to point people to?

And that's please connect. Please DM, I'd love to connect and talk more about it.

Brilliant. And you don't yet have a book or a podcast that I should be pointing people towards.

I do have a podcast, but it's the individual piece. Okay, brilliant. The link to lead is my podcast, but no book at the stage. No, I'm working on it.

Fantastic. Sounds good. So thank you so much, Emily, for your time today.

Thank you, Trisha.

And thank you, everyone for listening in with us. And please make sure that you have push that subscribe or connect or follow button, whichever is appropriate on the podcast app of your choice. And we look forward to being with you again next week for the next episode of The Shift.