Shownotes
In this episode of Common Sense Ohio, we delve into thought-provoking topics that affect our society and explore solutions from a scientific and psychological perspective.
We discuss the importance of understanding the root causes of negative behavior and implementing effective tools to address them.
We challenge the notion that societal issues are solely the result of government or leftist policies, urging a deeper analysis.
Join us as we navigate the complexities of racial slurs, free speech, and the role of intent in punishment.
We also examine the impact of deterrence, repeat offenders, and the efficacy of proposed gun control measures.
If you’re passionate about finding balanced, practical solutions, this episode is a must-listen!
🎧 Tune in and join the conversation on Common Sense Ohio Podcast.
UC student says she failed assignment for using term 'biological women'
Cincinnati police officer fired for using racial slur loses fight to get her job back
Statement on the preliminary injunction issued in Missouri v. Biden
Cleveland mass shooting suspect charged with attempted murder
Lorain Police release bodycam of family’s pet dog shot and killed by officer
Stephen Palmer is the Managing Partner for the law firm, Palmer Legal Defense. He has specialized almost exclusively in criminal defense for over 26 years. Steve is also a partner in Criminal Defense Consultants, a firm focused wholly on helping criminal defense attorneys design winning strategies for their clients.
Norm Murdock is an automobile racing driver and owner of a high-performance and restoration car parts company. He earned undergraduate degrees in literature and journalism and graduated with a Juris Doctor from the University of Cincinnati College of Law in 1985. He worked in the IT industry for two years before launching a career in government relations in Columbus, Ohio. Norm has assisted clients in the Transportation, Education, Healthcare, and Public Infrastructure sectors.
Brett Johnson is an award-winning podcast consultant and small business owner for nearly 10 years, leaving a long career in radio. He is passionate about helping small businesses tell their story through podcasts, and he believes podcasting is a great opportunity for different voices to speak and be heard.
Recorded at the 511 Studios, in the Brewery District in downtown Columbus, OH.
info@commonsenseohioshow.com
Copyright 2024 Common Sense Ohio
Transcripts
and you can like, subscribe and share our podcast tasked with everyone else who needs a dose of common sense. As I always say, it's like the old, you know, TV show. I forget what it was now where the guy would talk to the neighbor across the fence, but never really saw him.
Brett Johnson [:Tool time maybe. Tool that was the TV show he was on.
Steve Palmer [:What was that show? Oh my gosh. A a good conservative guy too. any anyway, the hey. If you've got that kind of neighbor and he needs a little dose of common sense, just say, hey. Look, common sense, ohio show .com. Check it out. Check out Norman's blog. Check out Brett's blog, and Steve's gonna write when I promise. And then you can share it like it and download it. And where do you download it? Well, if make it easy if you just go to the website. But if you don't wanna do that, if it's a little bit beyond your technical capabilities, I understand. I'm 53. I don't have those abilities either. But you can just go to apple Google or wherever you get your podcast, and you can subscribe and like it right there. Leave a comment. Send us a note at common senseiosho.com, and we'll cover it. I'm talking really fast because we're always limited on time. And Norm is ready to go. I can see him on the screen remotely. Brett is here in the studio. And so with that Norm, I will punt the ball your way. always got a stack of papers. So let's -- Yeah. -- consider.
Norm Murdock [:Yeah. One one case that we've been following is the UC student
Steve Palmer [:who -- Yes. I saw this.
Norm Murdock [:Yeah. Received a 0 grade on her women's genders and sex studies class because she she wrote a paper about biological women having to compete against trans men in athletics and she used the phrase biological women and was told that that was a unacceptable reinforcement of hetero normality quote, unquote, hetero normality by her professor. Her professor gave her a 0 on that paper and Olivia CroleCheck is the name of the student put out a TikTok video and basically expressed her frustration. What another term except bio quote, biological women could she have used to discuss the subject? So
Norm Murdock [:to those of us looking at this issue, it appeared to be
Norm Murdock [:that the professor just didn't wanna discuss the issue because she wouldn't allow the term biological women to be to be used in the paper. Well, how else do you discuss the issue? So she gave her a 0. The University of Cincinnati chairman of the department for women's gender and sex study gave her a rep Reporman inner personnel file for doing this, for violating this the free speech code on campus she has since withdrawn that reprimand and it's all being done very hush-hush. The student, Olivia, is naturally frustrated And if there doesn't seem to be an explanation now, if the professor didn't do something wrong, and the reprimand has been withdrawn. Where does that leave students at the University of Cincinnati now? in terms of their right to free speech. I I mean, I don't know I find it frustrating also because I I don't know what the message is other than, hey, a professor can give you a 0 on your paper. if you use certain words. And I guess the grade stands. The professor in her defense Melanie Nipper, name of the professor, has said that a 0 on the paper does not mean a zero failing grade. So maybe that's how she and her mind is justifying the 0 grade that that it that it's not going to affect Olivia's final grade, but I don't I don't really understand how you get a 0 on a project
Brett Johnson [:and it not affect your final grade. Oh, well, the 0 is like a rock. I mean -- Yes. -- that's an uphill battle from there in any subject.
Norm Murdock [:Oh, yeah. Yeah. That's tough. Look.
Steve Palmer [:there there's probably a way not to factor it. So you could just say we're gonna we're gonna take your grade as if that didn't exist and then give you the grade based on the rest of your body of work. But What if she has a grade of that's, say, 85 average going into this? And she otherwise would have gotten a 95. You know? That raises this up a little bit. It raises the entire GPA up a little bit. It's either way, it's unfair to this girl, and it's you know what this is? This is theater farce. I mean, this is a she should get the benefit of a real grade and from a genuine look at her work as opposed to a political look at her work because you don't like some politically incorrect or put it in quotes, politically incorrect terms. Well, and a 0 represents that no work was done. Correct. Yeah. At least a 50.
Brett Johnson [:you know, that it represents, okay. You put work. I may not agree necessarily, but zero represents you did nothing.
Steve Palmer [:Well, it this so flies in the face. of academic freedom and discourse and, you know, this this idea of critical thinking that's almost it's like it almost shocks me ever having this conversation. So you ask a student to write a paper, and you grade the student, not on the paper, but you grade the student on some verbiage, some term she uses as she's trying to describe her opinion. So this is basically content based grading. I don't agree with your opinion. I don't agree with the words you're using, so therefore, I'm gonna flag you. And, you know, it it's it's it's sort of like the freedom of speech discussions we've been having where you have these content based restrictions. So, you know, I guess somewhere you might argue there's a line, the Overton window, so to speak, where you can't say certain things in a paper. They're so offensive. you can't take certain positions. But I I mean, clearly, this is not that line. And, clearly, this goes beyond any sort of rational, reasonable viewpoint. I I mean, if anybody says that this girl should got it should get a 0 because she used the term biological woman. It's just asked nine to me.
Norm Murdock [:Yeah. I I what's unclear, obviously, because she the professor is not talking to the greater community, if you will, to explain. Well, what would be the proper term for Olivia to have used cisgender women I I I don't know what other what term other than biological women. I mean, in her department, of women, gender, and sex study is the name of the department and the name of the course. In in that realm, what could be a more contemporary and current event issue then sports with biological women competing against transitioned men. I I mean, that is obviously an a proposed subject. I what term would she advise the student to use to describe
Steve Palmer [:women who are born as women. I just I mean, it's in in really what's you you just bring up a good point, Norm, because what this really is is this professor disagreed not only with the premise of this student's argument, but wouldn't even let her make the argument. And it's -- Exactly. -- because she disagreed with it. So, you know, you you would use the term biological woman as Say she say the student used it as she has every right to use it to make a point. Look. I I'm not going to bend over to this speech requirement. that says I have to say cisgender or I have to say something other than biological woman because the premise of my argument is that there is a such thing as a biological woman and a bi biological woman can't be duplicated by putting on a costume and somebody parading around and acting like women and then competing against women and taking their accolades and NCAA Sports. So, you know, she is making a point by using that language. It is part of her argument. And as somebody who writes arguments day in and day out in courtrooms, This is what you do. You know? This is there's an art to making an argument. It's not just all logic and and syllogism. It starts with that, but then you there's art form to present your argument in a way that it's compelling. And if the student is learning how to do this and she wants to use this language in order to make her point, every right to do it and dinging her for it and not you know, I guess, if you're if you're in a college class, and a professor flagged you because you've been asked to give an opinion paper, and your research sucks. Your argument is incoherent. your grammar and your writing style is unreadable, and you've maybe you got caught making up sources or something. Well, then you get an f. but you shouldn't be graded on which position or which side you took. I mean, it just it it's it's It's just as offensive to its core.
Norm Murdock [:Yeah. Yeah. It it's as if the professor is not being she's not being forthright. She's not being honest about what her biases are. Clearly. Yeah. And she she's masking it in some kind of definitional you know, contest between her and the student instead of just coming out and saying, you know, this tissue is not ripe for discussion that that it's closed off and and the whole idea of trans humanism is, to me, not fit for discussion in this class, Well, then I would ask, well, then what uses that department? Why do you even have a major called gender studies if you're not gonna talk about the issue of people
Brett Johnson [:artificially changing their gender. Alright. And and, well, it's funny the first comment that the professor gives her because she screenshot it put on TikTok, Olivia, this is a solid proposal. However, because you use that term, I have to give you 0, basically. This is a solid proposal. So she liked the proposal. She just used the wrong words. Yeah. She did bottom line. Yeah. Ultimately, though, she didn't. You're right. I find that to be b s. It's b s. Yeah. So I'm I don't I disagree.
Steve Palmer [:So I wonder had she have taken the other position and also used the term biological woman in the context that you shouldn't use that. Say she say the the students argument is, should never use the word biological woman and here's why. Yeah. Right. Alright. I'll bet you, she doesn't flunk. Correct.
Brett Johnson [:Right. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Well, I don't know if you saw this norm too, staying in Cincinnati, that this past week, an Ohio officer down there lost her job getting it back because of her using the n word and got caught on tape, the officer. Yeah. It's on April 5th in 22, Rose Valentino was caught on her own body camera saying, okay, while stuck in traffic near Western Hills University High School And District 3 Police Headquarters. Well, she lost her job, but it's been they said that she, you know, she she was in her cruiser alone. She was Windows up when she encountered another vehicle blocking an exit according to the report. She turned on her cruiser lights and sirens. This automatically turned on her body worn camera. She said a student also flipped her off while she was trying to get the other car to move. After reviewing what happened, chief Teresa Theetge, I'll I'll say it's pronounced that way, t h e e t g e, fired her in August. The chief said Valentino's ready use of racial slur tarnished her ability to work with any community member. Now Valentino was among a string of officers in recent years caught using slurs on duty. She's the only one to be fired. As a result, she filed a grievance seeking reinstatement arguing in part that she was being punished differently for the insane infraction. The arbitrators disagreed. They said others use the slur in an off the cuff way at worst directing it at an individual. So we're gonna judge how we use that word. And in what context to how much we're going to either fire you or suspend you. Well, gotta I gotta think this through. -- be kidding me. I gotta think this through because they're
Steve Palmer [:I'm not so sure. I I don't I I I didn't catch all the facts as you were reading them about how this author or allegedly used the word. Was it used derogatorily?
Brett Johnson [:Yeah. So she used it in a way that that that was meant to -- Truly if if if the person -- -- worst form of the of the use. Worse I am not because I'm not gonna say how she said it. But, yes, then the but but she was in her car Roll windows rolled up, she was just caught on body cam. Yes. You got caught on a hot mic. Hot mic? Yeah. Yeah. So she was not facing the person or saying it in front of that person. But, you know, I'm not saying I'm not giving her any grace on this. I'm saying she said it. You know, it was in the context of where. And the other and and the other people, when the same, said that word, and they're not and they're not fired. I I guess I get where she's coming from. It's like, wait a minute. Let's unpack it because I don't know that I disagree with this. I I think
Steve Palmer [:first of all, let's let's let's change the facts a little bit for purposes of our analysis because, you know, I you hate to do that, but I think it's easier -- No. That's sad. -- that she said the word out loud out the window at the individual who was the target of the slur. Alright. We can all agree that that's a bad use of that word and somebody ought to be disciplined for that.
Norm Murdock [:Now say -- She is she is in she is in uniform, and she is representing -- Right. -- local government in her uniform.
Steve Palmer [:that's a racial slur by any Oh, for sure. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That way. I guess what I'm saying is the other officers ought to be gone too. Maybe. let's think about it. Now let's take the other side. Let's say somebody you say we use the word here at the table -- Right. -- while we're talking about the her use of the word. Yeah. It always bugs me that we can't do that. I I know. I know. I find that to be stupid. Yeah. Because it's it's, again, it's a suppression of speech that we've sort of we we have been Where should we signed up voluntarily for it? Yeah. You know, because we could use it. You know, we can do it and what there's no -- I know. -- at least so far. Yeah. The thought police aren't coming our way. Right. But I I I think there should be we can use words with intent and we can use words without intent. So, like, it's the blackface argument, you know, when somebody dressed up like their basketball hero, out of reverence. Okay. Yeah. Right. That's different than somebody dressing up like, you know, the sabot -- Mocking. -- mocking a black It's totally different -- Yeah. -- to me. And I think there you know, I I think we we got to a spot where our society is is, like, created that no matter what your intent was, it's bad. And so maybe I'm okay with this if now I think we have to change the facts back. Because if you use that word under your breath on a hot mic, you've sort of exposed your your your inner self a little bit. You have? And -- For sure. -- that's so I've always said, I don't care, and people hate me for this, probably. But And I say it almost as a to make a logical point. It's like we could have racist cops all over the police force, and we'd likely have some. Oh, I agree with that. Sure. I don't care as long as they don't act on it. Correct. They can think whatever they want. They can hide behind their little masquerade. They can do whatever they do. if they don't act on it. And, you know, that's a big if. But if they don't act on it, then it's okay because we have rules in place that prevent people from acting on those things. And they do, they should be disciplined. And this scenario is very close to that. This scenario is very close to somebody almost acting on it. And I so I don't know. I I don't know where I am with this. I think I I guess, Brett, I might disagree a little bit, and I I I think It's it's in this -- -- somebody's intent behind -- It's an interesting level of talk about. Okay. What can you and can't I I bring it up to that point. It's like, where is the injustice? Is there in Where is the line? Where is the line? Yeah. Where do you see all the lines? And it goes right to your
Brett Johnson [:your article, you know, about the US UC student. It's right in line with that. Yeah. So if the UC student is using the term biological
Steve Palmer [:female in the context of a, quote, clinical or academic debate, fine. I I think she can use that term. I mean, that's not even close to the other words we're talking about. But they they they're trying to make it that way. They're it's going in that to action. -- make it that way. Just the very mention of the n word, get you canceled and ruined for the rest of your life when we should be able to we can't even tell people what the word is to tell them not to say it. Yeah. But then it then it pops in your head, and you've said it -- Right. -- internally. I know. I know. In in in you know, there there is a you know, it's like you have sinned just by thinking of it. Right. Right. So is it is it any different if you say it out loud? And, you know, this is we talk about the we talk about the gospels here all the time, but this is like, you know, you have committed adultery if you just think in your heart that you wanna -- Right. -- covet somebody else's woman. You know? And it's sort of like alright. We all have to accept that if you suppress the speech, It doesn't change the thought. And in fact, it might actually make the thought worse and let it grow. this is what we talked about last week, Norm, where if if you don't have a meaningful open discussion about these kind of topics, and and shed the disinfectant of light on bad ideas, then the bad ideas tend to grow like mold and mildew and and hide in the dark.
Norm Murdock [:Yeah. I I guess I guess her body cam would not have been on and, therefore, not would not have ever been the the footage never would have been reviewed, and she not turned on her bubble gum machine on the roof. Correct. Correct. Once once she did that, then there was some kind of official action being taking being taken by turning on those lights that then that indicates an emergency situation or some kind of incident and then her body cam comes on and at that point she would know okay, I'm being recorded. Okay? I I I would guess that the officers know when they flip on those lights, that they're -- They don't know.
Steve Palmer [:They don't always know. They don't always know because -- Really? Really? A lot of times not a lot of times. They are always set in my experience to go backwards. So if the if the police officers click on the Visabar light system, it's tied to their dash cam and audio recording equipment. and it will backdate the recording by 30 seconds, 2 minutes, or whatever it's set at. So a lot of times what happens, like, we'll see a take a DUI case or a basic OBI. I'll we'll get the cruiser cam. And the officer will say, this guy made a wrongful left turn or something. and then they turn on their lights to pull them over. Well, when we get the recording, the the recording is is timed back words to start about 2 minutes before they turn their lights on. So I get to see the alleged violation or not see if that's the case. I see. So I think a lot of times they forget that. And and this is another thing that's happened. There's body worn cameras now norm. And and this stuff, you know, it is exposing all sorts of stuff. bad police conduct. And I've got cases right now where this is going on where 2 cops are looking at each other, like, looking down where their cameras are and looking up in their eyes and sorta, like, nudge nudge wink wink. Let's turn off our body cams because we don't want the what we're about to do under the microscope. And so the the with body cams they're aware, but I think sometimes maybe they get a little bit loosey goosey and forget that they're they're their Visabar light system is gonna backdate the recording.
Norm Murdock [:Yeah. I guess so if I was, you know, her supervisor. If you said this is another, you know, just thought exercise. If I was her supervisor, I guess I would have used this occasion, you know, because I I assume somebody reviews body cam or dash cam video of any time they they flip on the lights, there must be somebody who goes through that. That's how this got discovered. I assume. No. She was she was by herself, so it's not as if another officer said, hey. She used, you know, an epithet that's unacceptable here the police department and knocked on her, that didn't happen. It it it was somebody who reviewed the video.
Steve Palmer [:So -- What I don't know how long that video is preserved, and it's probably varies by police department. And I I I'm not convinced that there's there is, like, big brother out there reviewing all this video footage because there's a ton of it. Well, it almost have to be unless,
Brett Johnson [:you know, they didn't say what happened after the incident. So she she was caught on camera, you know, with the with audio video, that sort of thing. And then she must have gotten out of the car to to approach what was going on there in Western Hills. Yeah. So that probably happened. There was probably an incident, and then the video keep the video gets preserved. It didn't say anything about why. Yeah. How. That sort of thing. But that that must have been. Yeah. So let's hope that it's not a big brother situation. They're reviewing everything. But yeah. So
Norm Murdock [:I guess I would have further drilled down with the officer probably brought in, you know, somebody in the department who certainly, they have a a civil rights or a a diversity person. And and given the officer an interview, about their attitude towards African Americans, blacks. You know? Why did you use this word and try to try to figure it out? you know, there is, as we all know, there is banter within communities where this term is acceptable as used between black people with each other in certain circumstances Maybe she has a ton of black friends friends on the force. It could have been something she hears in the locker room there at the pre synced. I I don't know. I'm not making excuses. I would have found out a little bit more, I guess, about her attitude towards black folk The people she serves,
Norm Murdock [:she serves many black residents of Cincinnati, and so it's important that she not be a
Norm Murdock [:bigot It's important that they find out why did you use this word. I wouldn't have a black and white, no pun intended regulation that says anybody who uses this word gets fired -- Yeah. -- because once again, black people themselves sometimes use this word even in an affectionate way, I've heard it used -- Yeah. -- between yourself. And so I don't know. I don't know just by her very use of this word that she is a bigot. she may be. She may not be. And I would that is what I would want to determine. If she is a bigot, if she is a racist, I would not want her in uniform representing the city of Cincinnati if I was her supervisor.
Steve Palmer [:Well -- So -- -- this is this is what I was talking about. So it look. If she is a racist bigot, no good rotten to the core in her head, in her soul -- Right. -- but she doesn't act on it. then logically, it doesn't matter. Now the question is harder than that, obviously, because those who those who operate that way, certainly, the danger is they will act on it. So now you gotta go back and review her body of police work and see -- That's where I was thinking too. Go back and say, okay. It's just a one off? Yeah. It's a bad day, bad moment, but yes, sir, stirring. This this this is always bugged me too, and this is not an advocate I'm not advocating for being to calling somebody at work. No. But, you know, the let he without sin cast the first shown here because how many times have we looked at somebody in anger and used a word that we know will piss them off in the most? You know? you effing whatever. You know? You're gonna say things in anger, and it doesn't necessarily reflect that you're a bigot or a racist. It might be It might be offensive. It might be inappropriate. It might be just the the fairest thing in the world, and this is close to it. But on the other hand, it doesn't necessarily reflect who you are as much as -- That's true. -- you law you let in in law there. I I would call it mongo. You don't let mongo out of the bag in front of the jury. You get pissed off in front of the jury. You do things that aren't that you lose control. And mongo got out of the bag here, and lost control. Yeah. The first captain the first captain reviewing it wanted to spender, 2 suspended 3 to 5 days, and then the police chief says, no. She's gone too far. And that's you know, we don't know the rest of the story either. We don't know what her history is. And I'm just going off of article. That's all I can do. And I think you're bringing a good point. We don't know her her Yeah. We don't know it. Typically, employment decisions aren't made one off. You know? Typically, there is a discipline record in other things. And and, look, here's there's there's another big picture topic here, guys, that we should talk about. And that is, is there a constitutional right to use that word? And, you know, is this is a This is a government actor. Now that's a little bit different. Yeah. This is a government actor, but -- That's right. -- she is being disciplined also then by the government. So She's being fired for using speech that's offensive.
Brett Johnson [:And someone gets 0 for using biological woman and get you know? Is that UC? Yeah. It was a UC. But yeah. But, you know what? I was just saying, we're going down that slippery path. You go down that path. So we could say it's, like, it's easy to say
Steve Palmer [:It's easy for people to say, look. You're never allowed to say that word, and there should be a law that says you shouldn't say that word. And I'm like, well, not so fast, man. Because if you make a law that that you can't use that word, then you can also make a law that you can't use another word. And then after that, it gets easier to make a law that you can't use -- Very easy. -- a word that you should be able to use. You know, it's it It's this slippery slope that you always get stuck on when you start to regulate content of speech. It always happens.
Norm Murdock [:Yeah. You know, in your if you're gonna have a consistent policy, if
Norm Murdock [:if it is a a migrant from south of the border and you use a disparaging word about that
Norm Murdock [:population in a moment of frustration, would she have lost her job or if she was talking in Cincinnati, there's a lot of appellation
Steve Palmer [:You dumb effing Hillbilly. Yeah. Stupid red neck.
Norm Murdock [:White trash. White trash piece of crap. You know? Yeah. Yeah. It's like -- I would be so I would be much more concerned as her supervisor that she has a bias against certain populations, and I would explore that. And if she needs counseling or something, you know, they have an investment in training this officer and to just cast her aside if it is and I'm not accusing the police chief because as you say, Steve, quite rightly. We don't know her complete dossier, her her factual, you know, her her employee file. But if this is the first time and and she got caught using a derogatory term about a certain population, I guess
Norm Murdock [:my impulse would be to thoroughly vet that. And then to get her some training, if it doesn't
Norm Murdock [:to glows, a deep some some sort of hate or bias against that community. But just a moment of frustration where she let out a word that she hears elsewhere on the job and and just figures, you know, I'm by myself and the cruiser. I'm blowing off some steam. I think, you know, they gotta look at the whole picture and maybe they did. So, you know, I'm concerned for her rights And I yet, I am also aware of the greater communities need to have unbiased officers I mean, that is important. She carries a gun. She has a badge. She she she could decide right there at the scene of a crime, who she's going to arrest and or and who she's gonna let off the hook and who she gonna do that impartially. So Yeah. It's a legitimate point of investigation. I and I don't know
Steve Palmer [:I don't know which way this should have been decided without more information. Right. Yeah. Well, I think I think we we can all agree this. I mean, you know, let's set some parameters on this, then we can move on. Because Look. There's the worst form of using that word, and that is when it's specifically intended to be a racial slur because you're a racist. Alright. But it's not the word that's racist. It's the it's the intent and the use in in the person that's racist. you can use the word on the other end of the spectrum norm. Like you said, it's it can even be used as a term of endearment, like -- Yes. -- cousin, you know, or a brother or whatever. Yeah. And then there's lots of things in between. And maybe maybe like a step beyond or a step this side of the worst use, You use it because you're pissed at somebody and you wanna make it known that you're pissed at that particular individual and you're using a word to make it so just to let them know that you're really pissed off and you wanna hurt that person. Yeah. And to me, that's different than somebody who's who's got the heart of a racist. And, you know, the problem with all of this, of course, is there's no good way to read somebody's mind. You know, you you don't know. like you said, maybe Norm, you can have a counseling session. You can interview the person. But who's gonna say, oh, yeah. I'm a object racist, and, you know, it's like it's so difficult. These are hard topics. So I like to create standards that are implementable across the board, and that is like, alright. should the first question is, should there be a constitutional problem with outlawing that word altogether? And I think the answer is yes. Because then you're gonna catch the people who are using it as a term of endearment. And let's say somebody now what you've done is you created a policy where a racist white cop could arrest a black person for using the word. then you have to say, well, we'll modify that law, and we'll say only black people can use that word. But what if a black person is is like, how do you define that? What if my grandfather's black with my is mostly white. Am I allowed to use it's, like, it's impossible. So, you know, these people that think that they're doing righteous good never think through the, like, level 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, and beyond of what these policies and practices actually mean when you implement them. and they create enormous bureaucracies of impossibility. So, anyway, without a shut up about it, we're gonna be going.
Norm Murdock [:Yeah. We on the previous show, we we spent most of the entire show talking about the Missouri v Biden. injunctive decision by judge Daugherty in Louisiana Federal District Court Judge The Biden Department of Justice came back almost immediately and requested a stay of his injunction and he himself, the judge, having just issued a 155 page decision on the injunction denied the stay, the re the motion for stay. So, apparently, what we all thought this. We have not heard the last of this particular case. So, you know, that happened this past week, and he turned down their motions for stay. So here we go. We're gonna find out a lot more about the Biden Administration's clear desire to interact with big tech, big social, and manipulate what is and what is not permissible on social media from a government free speech point of view. Amazing that they would press this, but they indeed are pressing this issue.
Steve Palmer [:I think it's telling that they're pressing it. So, you know, this is another one that seems so blatantly obvious to me. that it's hard to even contemplate somebody taking the other position of this. Like, you have -- Yeah. -- you have the federal government stepping in, influencing a a private company to suppress speech based on content. Alright. Like,
Brett Johnson [:That's what happened. What else could you say about exactly? That's not a spin. It's not. That's a fact. And if you this happened with the the, you know, the first the the traditional media newspaper or TV. They would be published. -- hell would be breaking loose. Yes.
Steve Palmer [:And I I I'm blown away that anyone disagrees with this. I am utterly blown away. It it it reflects something very, very dangerous, I think, in our society. And Normie said this your issue of the year. This this one scares me because you know what? It's not that this is different than all the other social issues in the cultural battles that are going on. I think it's more like it's just manifesting itself here. Like, this is this is this is the front line of it. Because if you have one side not willing to debate with the other side so much so that they will empower the federal government and are okay with the federal government suppressing the other sides argument and position based on the content of their speech, then it it almost is like it's too late. We're we're past the point of return. If anybody is good with this, all you have to do is look in the mirror and say, what if they did it to me? Yeah. And you're yeah. But I'm right, argument doesn't freaking work now. Doesn't So No. No. Steven's brat. The country thinks you're wrong. Mhmm. You know? And yeah.
Norm Murdock [:In the in the past week, they have had FBI director Ray in front of Ohio congressman Jim Jordan's judiciary committee -- Yep. -- is defined on all kinds of issues involving the FBI I mean, the Hunter Biden laptop, all all kinds of things. This topic came up about the FBI agent Elvis Chan is is one of them. Specific specific dates that the Twitter files disclosed, you know, date time, his flights out to Silicon Valley or or his drive from the local office. I don't know where he his home office is. But, anyway, they know the name of the employee. They know the dates of the meetings. They know who we met with. If this all came out with the Twitter files. So he was asked about that. Director Ray, and director Ray denied. So the congressman gave him all the specificity and he denied that those meetings were about throttling with the content on social media. So on one hand, you have the Biden DOJ arguing that they have the right to interact with social media to throttle information. But then the law enforcement arm that's actually doing it is denying that it's taking place. So, I I mean, he he need I guess, director Ray should have just been he he's being coy or or he's lying. I I don't know what it is. It's about this topic that he can't simply top to the facts
Norm Murdock [:and say yes, we did have personnel involved in crafting
Norm Murdock [:proper subject matter for discussion on social media. And that is in dispute currently in the court system, but that's not what he said. He he he said it's not happening. I mean, I mean, both of them can't be true. I mean, Somebody
Steve Palmer [:yeah. No. It there's I I I think this will shake out that it is happening. I think there is I think there's actually proof of it, and there's, like, the I think I didn't think that Like, the people doing it weren't even denying it, and the fact that they're championing that they should be able to do it, I think it's a pretty telling admission that they're doing it. Right. Yeah. Yeah. But he doesn't wanna say it out loud. Right. That's what's interesting. Yeah. At this juncture, at least. Which is it? That's an interesting psych logical point that they don't wanna say it out loud. You know? Like, what does that reflect? Is that shame? Is that, like -- Yeah. -- or is it, like, the ultimate form of concealment that we're not gonna admit that we're doing it? Like, in which is, again, shame that you're doing something wrong. You know, what are they really saying by not wanting to admit it? If it's really right, if you really think it's okay, then do what you're doing. You know? Appeal the damn decision and say we should be able to do this. Now I I I disagree for all their my banter 5 minutes ago, but, you know, it's like, What if you can't if you're not proud of what you're doing, you know, if you're if you if you're not willing to say that we're doing this and then advocate why you're doing it, then it is by definition something that you know is wrong. Right? It's like, come on. You know? It's like it's almost like you know, it it it it's self pro it's a self prophecy or whatever you would say. You know, they're they're appealing it like they should I I guess what it is, it's a paradox. they're appealing it as if they should be allowed to do it legally, and at the same time, they're denying that they're doing it.
Norm Murdock [:Yeah. It's bizarre.
Brett Johnson [:Right. It's bizarre. It sounds like war crimes. Right. Almost. You know, it's like, oh, we didn't do that, but -- But we should be. -- we should be allowed. But we have the right to do it. We have the right to do it. Yeah. And then and and maybe an extreme, but it's, like, talking both sides out of your both sides of your mouth on this one. Yeah. Exactly. Oh my gosh. Right.
Norm Murdock [:Yeah. We had a mass shooting up in Cleveland this past week. Nine people injured. I don't think anybody succumbed to their injuries. There was one serious injury, but it and they know who the suspect is and may have arrested him by now. was supposed to be a young male, and that somebody identified him. So the police probably are after him or got him. I I don't know what has happened in that department, but the mayor of Cleveland, Justin Bibb, decried the, if you will, it's been called constitutional carry bill that was Senate Bill 215 that was signed by or the line in the law in March of last year. And he says that people not having to have a permit being able to carry is contributing to guns on the street that otherwise would not be there. And he says he he wants the Republican party, which is in control in Columbus at state government level. Governor, Supreme Court, House And Senate. He wants tools He doesn't specify what those tools are, but clearly, he since he singled out constitutional carry, he believes that that was a a mistake. and clearly would like that to be withdrawn very unlikely. Right? that that's going to happen, but he has attached this incident to that piece of legislation. He tied the 2 together and said, essentially, that this is why these shootings are taking place. which flies in the face of evidence that these shootings took place prior to the passage of that law and I certainly doubt that somebody personally this is my opinion now, so now I'm editorializing. But I I mean, I I don't think criminals read the criminal code before they go out and commit a crime. They they this guy was gonna shoot somebody and go get a gun to do it whether whether there's a law in the books or not. I I -- Yeah. This is like -- Yeah. -- I always I I was in
Steve Palmer [:I I always say this. It's like, hate crimes are are just foolish on their face to me because, like, is there any other kind? You know, it's the old Jack Nicholson. Like, I killed somebody and that was a hate crime. So, look, the person's still dead. I've still gone to prison for us in my life, but we theatrically called a hate crime because the person happens to be of a different race or it was motivated by some psychopathic racial vendetta. It's like, yes. That's a hate crime, and he's still going to prison for the rest of his life. And and I think Norm you're categorically correct. I argue with people all the time. I think with Paul Scarsela, when he was here, we had a little debate about this. It's like, I I or maybe with you. I think I argue with you about, like, the the the deterring effect of punishments in courtrooms. It's like, look, criminals are gonna go grab a gun and shoot somebody because they're criminals, and they already know, guess what, folks? spoiler alert. They already know that you're not allowed to shoot somebody. Right. Right. They already know that. Right. Oh, it's like, oh, darn it. They made a law that says I'm not allowed to shoot this person? Crap. I didn't know. You know, it's like -- Yeah. And, usually, I think it's a scenario they have nothing to lose. Yeah. If I would -- Wait. Are you doing it because they have nothing to lose? -- really, really, really made it illegal. I wouldn't have done it. Right. Don't give me that nonsense. No. They have nothing to lose. This is their last
Brett Johnson [:shot at retribution.
Steve Palmer [:They know the con they don't care. Right. They know the they know the consequences. They don't care. They know it. They know it. You know, they they've had lives that they've gotten them to a certain position where they don't care. And it might be, like, an incremental psychological degrading life that they've had. And I I have empathy for that. Yes. And and maybe that's where the focus should be. But -- That's where the tools should come in and helping this this -- Right. -- culture, this society. Where he's grown up help stop it from from the roots of it. Yeah. And and look. It's never the policies. It's never the crazy leftist policies that got us here. or the government policies that got us here. It's like we just need to do more stuff, you know. But, look, there was a time where this stuff didn't happen in the country. Right? Right. And, you know, and maybe you could say it happened, but not it's a matter of degree for sure. But it's like there was a time you didn't hear about this day in and day was a time in Chicago. You couldn't look at the pay you didn't look at the papers and see five more people dead in the inner cities, black and white. Right? So it's like there there are times that that didn't happen. what's gone wrong? And and, you know, maybe the first start is to go back and try to pinpoint when it really got bad or when it started to get bad and then say, alright. What what changed right before that? Yeah. What do we do? Like, put a scientific bent on this. Put us put a psychological study on this instead of saying it's racism or instead of saying it's We the government wasn't allowed to do enough to fix it. It's like, no. No. That doesn't quite fix it. Or that doesn't quite explain it. We need a better look. And Here here's what I always say, guys. It's like it's never most often, I don't disagree with people on what the problems are. I disagree with often what caused the problems and how to solve them, but not what they are. And -- Right. -- you know, like, I I'll I'll admit that they're a racist in the world. just don't think that you can pass government laws and give the government full plenary power that's gonna stop it because the the you know, even if they could, the consequences of of that power are gonna manifest in ways that you don't want. So it's like we can at least agree what the problems are. Now we have to figure out why they were caused And then once you know that, you can start to craft a solution. It just seems like so it seems so easy. Now I'm not saying it's easy to solve them, but it's like that should be the analysis, shouldn't it? What am I missing?
Norm Murdock [:Right. The the mayor himself, so now I'm gonna play defense attorney for the mayor. The mayor himself in other comments at the same time as he blamed the Republicans. He also said, I quote, it is important to note that we cannot change human behavior. So he seems to think like people who argue that if you get rid of alcohol, there's no alcoholism. Right? He seems to think that since you can't change human nature and human behavior, that it's just the gun. Like, if you get rid of the guns, there's no not gonna be anymore quote, gun violence, unquote. Well, you can't get rid of the guns. You can make a gun at home on a 3 d printer. I keep trying to tell people this. There's no way to put that genie back in the bottle. I don't care if you're in Norway, or Sweden or the United Kingdom or Australia where all gun ownership is virtually banned. If you have a 3 d printer, you can make a gun.
Norm Murdock [:and you can you can make your own ammo.
Norm Murdock [:So -- And if you could -- It all does come down.
Brett Johnson [:Right. Yeah.
Norm Murdock [:That's right. It all comes down to what the mayor said. The one thing he said, which is right. You can't, in his opinion,
Steve Palmer [:you can't change. Now he said human behavior. I think you can change human -- You can influence the human behavior. You can -- That's right. That's right. But not -- But the government can't do it by cramming down its mess. No. It has to happen at the cultural level or the grassroots level. And and I've said this about gun control forever. Like, yes. And let's let's just say that we're all magicians here. It at common sense, Ohio. And we have the power infinite power to wave our magic wands and eliminate firearms in their entirety as if they never existed in the world. Then in theory, not actually in logic then, we would eliminate all firearm violence. because there wouldn't be guns. What we cannot do, however, is just that. We we don't have the power to wave our magic wand and get rid of guns. So just by saying we're gonna outlaw guns doesn't mean you're getting rid of them. Just by saying that you're gonna prohibit people from getting them, doesn't mean they're not gonna get them. Look, you can make it harder for people to get them. You can do whatever you want, but the criminals are gonna commit crimes. And if the crime is procuring a gun they're not allowed to have, that'll be the first one they commit. they're gonna go commit a crime with a gun. And, you know, this is the problem. It's like taking my gun away is not gonna stop the criminal from getting his gun. And and, you know, it it this comes back to what what the thing that there's a couple things that irked me the most in the world. And one of them is this. Well, we gotta do something. Gotta do something because as I said a hundred times, Whatever you do after that, you're acknowledging is not gonna work, but you're just doing it for theater. You you're gonna do something, so it looks like you're doing something and trying. And, you know, That's a bunch of nonsense. Now there may be some minimal purpose to that because you want your like, if you're a leader in a company and you want your your your followers to know that you're trying to do stuff. But at least acknowledge what you're doing is theater. It's all bullshit. You know, you're not gonna -- I mean -- Like, done more gun control. That'll stop this. Yes. Mhmm. I mean, the the the bombers at at at the Boston Marathon
Norm Murdock [:used a a pressure cooker or pot to kill people. The the the the truck driver on Bastille Day in Marseille, France, drove a truck and killed dozens of people driving a truck into a crowd on at Bastille Day. The the the racist guy with the Dodge charger or whatever -- Mhmm. -- in Charlottesville. Right? That's how he killed that that Marcher was driving his car into her. he didn't use a gun. I mean, the the the the black fellow, what was it, 4th July a couple of years ago in Illinois or wherever that Iowa where he had it it was a hate crime. He admitted he hated white people, and and he he killed a bunch of people with his car. So, I mean,
Brett Johnson [:people that wanna kill are gonna kill people. We we we have plenty of opportunity for weapons of mass destruction, quote, unquote. We do. We do.
Norm Murdock [:Yeah. We do. Yeah. Right? Yeah. I think that that remember the Japanese terrorist onboard onboarded train use some kind of toxic gas Mhmm. I'm going back 30 years. I I remember because because you can't have firearms in Japan. So he was on a subway and let out some kind of I I forget what it was, a c s gas, or I don't know what it was, but he killed a bunch of people on the Japanese subway. Well and and, you know, maybe another let's look at another side of this. Like, the the there's always a law of unintended consequences and, you know, good economists will see this kind of stuff. And it's like,
Steve Palmer [:if if you wanna implement a law like Japan or, like, England, or like whatever or whoever has these laws. Alright. The ordinary citizen cannot own firearms. Think what you're asking of the federal government or the state government or your local government, and what are they going to have the power to do? Alright? They're gonna have the power to come into your house and take from you your possessions. And if you think that's not a big deal, then think about it more. because it is a big deal. So it's gonna make criminals out of everybody who's otherwise not a criminal, and it's gonna be a regulatory crime. You have guns and you have to turn them over. And let's just say I don't want to and you can say, well, then you're a criminal law, majority rule. Alright. Fine. What about the corrupt cop? He's gonna knock on my door and say, We're coming into your house. No. You're not. Yes. We are. No. You're not. Well, there's an addict here from the government. This is an administrative taking, and we're here to take your guns. And, you know, I think about the abuse of power that can create for minorities.
Brett Johnson [: Your your example is the mid: Norm Murdock [:-- Yeah. -- here in America. Yeah. It is -- That's exactly why we went to war. That's exactly what happened.
Steve Palmer [:The Kings the the the the the the the or the British army was doing just that. Go into any colonial home. Knock on a word. Take whatever they want. Take what they want. And you and, you know, it's like these are things you can't just legislate in a vacuum and say, yeah. We'll solve this. We'll just make it illegal to have a gun. Alright. Well so irrespective of whether you could actually do that. Do you really think that that the federal government or the local government or the brown shirts, whoever's job that they're gonna be tasked to go take everybody's guns. How do you think that's going down? And and do you think that could be implemented in a racial way? Think again if you get if you're thinking no. So it's like, let's say you got a racist brown shirt who said, hey. Look. I think this this black family over here. I've been watching them anyway. I don't like them. I'm gonna go find some drugs in their house under the guise of looking for guns. And it's gonna go beyond the color again, it's gonna go to religion. Religion. What you read, what you eat. What -- You might have pissed him off on the way and flipped him off because of a rage incident. Sure. It's like -- It it's proven in history that it will happen. Power corrupts and absolute power corrupts, absolutely. It's proven. It always does. So if you think you're the one with the power, Like, if the power is being you or wielded for the something you want, it's gonna be okay and it won't be corrupt, just go read the history books. Yes. exactly the history works. Yep. Yeah.
Norm Murdock [:There was a an another, you know, things seemed to happen up in the northern part of Ohio. I I don't know why. Now we talked about couple of Cincinnati cases, but a police involved shooting 2 place of a dog in Lorraine and it caused quite an uproar. There there was a public demonstration against the police department because an officer put down a three year old Labrador golden retriever mix, dog, the owners were having trouble getting the dogs under control, and apparently, this dog came towards the officer. It's not indicating that it was threatening the officer, but he did not like the dog approaching him. And, apparently, there was a pattern with his family of dogs getting out They have 4 dogs. The owner's name is Tammy Kerns, and the officer, no relation to Steve, is Elliot Palmer, and he was placed on administrative leave. He he shot the dog, I believe, four times, killed the dog, gotten a cruiser and and left the scene, which is a little unbelievable because the neighbors were were were starting to really protest in real time that he did this, that he, you know, shot the dog. The dog kinda whimpered and struggled, and then he put 3 more rounds in the dog apparently. So Lorraine, Ohio. Here we go. I don't know how this is gonna shake out. He may lose his job. I know, but he had been at that address on previous occasions. And the owner said he helped. He was actually helpful to her on previous occasions, but this time around, for some reason, he he must have been in fear or was just sick of the dog. I don't know what his intentions are, but he did shoot the dog.
Steve Palmer [:Yeah. That's horrible. I mean -- Yeah. It is. It is horrible. So all I can say is something like this is investigate the crap out of it. Figure out what the heck happened. And if he's wrong, he's wrong. You know? There's gonna have to there's gonna have to be some discipline. I think if we're gonna have if we're gonna rein in the police in any meaningful way, it's not by theatrical accusations that all cops are racist. It's gonna be by enforcing the rules in the conduct and the code of conduct that already exists both constitutionally and administratively. And, you know, the Not all cops are good. Not all cops are bad.
Brett Johnson [:They're in fact, most of them are probably both on some level. Just like the rest of us are. Yeah. I'll put a link in our show notes to the to the video of the they don't show the killing of the dog, but I don't know. First glance at it, I think the officer may have overreacted. Yeah. That that dog was not going after him. You you can tell when a dog's going after. And I I mean, I'm sure I'm sure top was frustrated. I you know, build up build up build up, you know, frustration about they're human. For sure. For sure. And may have been a bad call on his part on that one. It might have It might have been. But, again, you're not you if you're trying to play into his head, I have no clue.
Norm Murdock [:No clue. You know, you're not there. So but No. I don't know. That's tough one. This went this went down on July 2nd, so it's pretty fresh and -- Tough. -- I guess we'll hear about the outcome. Yeah. Yep. Yeah. Follow-up. Definitely. So another another Cleveland case, guys, this is really awful to say the least. I mean, Captain obvious statement, but a a thirty one year old mother went on a vacation, I believe, to Puerto Rico. and left her sixteen month old, you know, under 2 year 16 months child alone in the house. I mean, I -- 16 months? 16 months. Yeah. Just left the just left the baby in the house. The baby died. And she came back the baby's nonresponsive.
Brett Johnson [:Well, I'm older than that. Yeah. Right. Another -- -- mean -- Wow. -- mean,
Norm Murdock [:there must be some mental illness involved. Right. It just can't imagine this. So, again, the baby Jaylen is the name of the baby, and Crystal Candelario is the name of the mother, thirty one years old, I don't know if she's a single mother. I don't know the circumstances, but this happened in Cleveland. And just, I guess, a month ago, when all this went down, and she went home, I guess, to see family or friends in Puerto Rico where perhaps she from or has relatives. I don't know the situation there, but left a sixteen month old baby by itself. I It's not an aquarium fish. I mean, I don't I don't understand. I mean, it's monstrous or it's I don't know. There's a mental illness involved or something.
Steve Palmer [:Yeah. I that's yeah.
Brett Johnson [:It it man. You don't you don't even know what to say to that. It just Yeah. Yeah. It it reflects a complete
Steve Palmer [:lack of of interest in human life. You know? It's just like -- Yeah. -- like, to think that To think that that's okay, it's all like, I I I have no idea what psychology gets you there. Yeah. Right. It's just it's hard to prove assess that. I actually, they hope there is something severely wrong -- I hope. -- from a mental health standpoint. It doesn't make the crime any better. But I hope that it's not just somebody who's like, oh, yeah. This baby will make it.
Brett Johnson [:Right.
Steve Palmer [:I I yeah. I I Wow. I am Absolutely. I mean, this isn't like look. You can almost done it's so sick that we have to categorize this stuff or or, like, add add, like, or a hierarchy to this stuff. But it's, like, You know, the the mother who there's a case in in Columbus a while back where the mother went to buy cigarettes and left the kid at home, and there was a fire. Somebody died or something like that. It's like, alright. you know, you can just see that as a a complete lapse of care. But at least they were just she was going and then coming right back. Like, leaving on vacation for days with a sixteen month old, There there is no there's nothing even conceivably. No. Yeah. Okay. With that. Yeah. Yeah. Yes. I came and come up with a logic that would say that is okay.
Norm Murdock [:Right. Yeah. I'm blown away. blown away. I mean, for the baby to get to be sixteen months old, she clearly took care of the baby up to 16 months. So she you know, Yeah. It is bizarre. You know? Yeah. Wow. Wow. You hate those you hate those stories that you can't even make a comment other than just your jaw drops. Yeah. Yeah. Do we have a do we have a few a few more minutes on the show? Let's hit some nuggets. We got about 10 more minutes. Okay. Thank you. governor DeWine. Now this is this is a couple of weeks ago, but it's interesting to note the delay And and and I don't know if the delay is out of order. This is a point of discussion for us. But the wine just now like a couple weeks ago asked the Biden administration to declare a meet a major disaster area for East Palestine, and it just seems like
Brett Johnson [:he's been a little slow on the uptake. I mean -- Did he have a meeting with Jill while she was in town to maybe solidify the the deal? I mean, come on. She was in town. Yeah. She was in town. I mean yeah. She's a doctor.
Norm Murdock [:Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Right. Yeah.
Brett Johnson [:So Wow. I I didn't I didn't even hear that, Norm. So just a couple of weeks ago, he's -- Couple of weeks. Yeah. Couple of weeks ago, and you're just I don't want to -- Maybe somebody reminded grandpa that, oh, by the way, we got that mess up there. Why don't you ask again?
Norm Murdock [:You know? I mean, wouldn't wouldn't you think, like, within 2, 3 days. Jeez. Like like, when a tornado comes when a tornado or a hurricane hits. Right? And one of these governors says, hey. We need a declaration of a match. of of an excuse me, a major disaster. Right? It's pretty quick. Is this, like, I don't know why it took so long for it to sink in that, you know, we need some federal help here. Yeah.
Brett Johnson [:like any other state that has a major disaster. Unless he was under the guise that the railroad was gonna take care of it 100%. Yeah. Right. I I don't know. Maybe. I don't wanna give him much I don't wanna give him much grace. There's so much stuff to consider with this. It's hard to unravel. Yeah. It's like
Steve Palmer [:Everything about it. Yeah. Everything about this train thing is is so insane. It is. It's just utter it's an utter debacle. And as I like to say it's like this the the best explanation here is just utter complete incompetence up and down the spectrum. Right. And you and you would hope that
Brett Johnson [:those officials would have a better game plan on emergencies.
Norm Murdock [:This is what we do. You know, I mean, checklist almost. You can't predict
Steve Palmer [:every emergency -- You can't. -- predict your response to emergencies. Bingo. You can practice that. You definitely can. It's on paper somewhere. Well, actually, hold on a second, though. Maybe maybe we're giving him too much credit. We are a trained company hauling hazardous materials. And I think Jay, the exchequer, probably talked about this too. It's like, there's a protocol for this. Yes. Right? Otherwise, they wouldn't be allowed to do what they do as a business. If you're a business and you're hauling Azure stuff and you just haven't haven't caught what happens if it spills. It's like it's like, come on. You know? Exactly. Like, I don't think it's too much to ask. I have a little bit of a plan in place beforehand. -- not. It's Yeah. It just is it's crazy. Alright, Norm. Keep going.
Norm Murdock [:So things in California, as we all know culturally, have a tendency to emanate from there. and spread. You know? So the discussion -- -- Aurizona. It was one person at a time. Yeah. Right. Right. So there is currently pending a bill in the California legislature if this will be interesting to see if it passes. I bet it does. Right? because they're so crazy. But this bill would would mandate, not allow, it would mandate as one of the sentencing guidelines, people who come from what they wanna call in the legislation historically oppressed populations. So you know, definitely targeted towards a black criminal defendants and getting years or months off of their sentence if it is demonstrated somehow in the pleadings that this not that this person was oppressed, but that they come from or are part of a population which was historically said to be oppressed -- Yeah. -- which I know a lot of Irish people -- -- define that. Yeah. Irish Italians.
Steve Palmer [:you know, even I think the German immigrants. Chinese railroads. Chinese and Japanese. Sure. So -- So how much how much do I have to have in my blood to be one of those?
Norm Murdock [:I always ask when we get into these cosmic discussions about oppressed people. Please tell me the oppressed please tell me the people who were not oppressed at some time in human history. I don't know of any people who were not oppressed. that every population was oppressed.
Norm Murdock [:In in some dramatic and very unfair way, the cossacks in Russia were oppressed.
Norm Murdock [:They were almost wiped out by Stalin. I mean, on and on and on, lots of populations are oppressed, historically. Yeah. So I -- I just yes. Jews, of course. I mean -- Yes.
Steve Palmer [:Perhaps more so. I I don't I can't maybe there's no perhaps more so than any other. Right? It's like the holocaust.
Norm Murdock [:Yeah. All the pogroms over the course of history since Jesus, you know, was crucified. Various crazy Christian populations have have decided that they needed to go rid their communities of Jews because, you know, they gotta get even for Jesus being crucified. Yeah. But
Steve Palmer [:and it's just it's like so -- There's almost like affirmative action in the digisos digisso system. Well, of course. Right. They're saying -- My gosh. -- what they're really saying is we're gonna go let people with certain skin color at a prison.
Norm Murdock [:Exactly.
Steve Palmer [:And and look -- And you -- Yeah. -- if you could prove that they're in prison because of a racist agenda, I'm open to that. You bet? But that's an individual case by case basis, isn't it? And they don't have the time to do it. So they have to just make a big swipe. Doesn't look as good when they do it when they do it. Like, oh, this person like, this was a Mark Fuhrman prosecution, and we can establish that he was racist and Therefore, we and we can show some racist conduct in this case. Like, I'm I'm open to that. But just to say that it must be racism because you're a certain color and you're in prison,
Brett Johnson [:I think that's that's too broad a brush. And and does that legislation then look back or just moving forward
Steve Palmer [:with cases? Yeah. Like, where yeah. Exactly. Where is that slippery slope end? Well -- What what you need is the whole government bureaucracy to go enforce it so now or implement it. So you know? Now we're gonna go look at who's in there right now. Yeah. Let's go to make a -- Or are you gonna see cases coming up. Like, hey. -- spend some more of our dollars. Yeah. Wow. Is it is it is it not amazing
Norm Murdock [:to all of us that on the heels of the Supreme Court about Harvard And the University of North Carolina involving admissions data with regards to race, that the California legislature is going to inject race. right back into the criminal sentencing -- Yeah. Probably yes. Right. As if that can't backfire. Right. Yeah. I mean -- Yeah. -- do they not think that that'll get to the Supreme Court at some point? I mean, it's crazy.
Steve Palmer [:If I now if I'm a white guy, and I committed an armed bank robbery. Yeah. And my codefendant was a black guy. who was with me committing an armed bank robbery. How are we gonna sort that one out?
Norm Murdock [:Yeah. Exactly. Yes.
Steve Palmer [:I go to prison, but he doesn't? because of the color of your skin. Or if he's not going to prison, then why you know, what's where's the equal protection I I should go to. And so now they're gonna make it a that says, well, if he's part of a race that has been traditionally discriminated against while then we can we can deem that in his favor. You don't get that little box. So, therefore, you go to prison he doesn't, and I'm gonna be saying, wow. Is that not racist?
Norm Murdock [:Well, and I always bring up the example of our previous President Obama. I mean what would how's it what's a court do with with a person who's half white, half black? Whatever those terms mean, but, you know -- Yeah. -- that's what Obama says. His heritage is. He's half white, half blind. Well, which one is he? are we gonna have something?
Steve Palmer [:Right. Why can't we just be Americans? And I get it. There's historical racism in sucks, and there's current racism and that sucks. And all of that is true. Of course. And we might argue about the degree of it currently. We might you know, you may think there's more and we may think there's less or whatever it would be. But I think, you know, again, we're back to we can agree on what the problem is for the most part. But what's the solution? You give the the government all the power to fix it. Like, exactly how is that gonna happen. You know, your guy getting elected is not gonna change any of this. In fact, it might even make it worse. So Alright. Well, we get we're getting close to wrapping it up now. We got one more. Yeah. So in the same,
Norm Murdock [:if you will, laboratory
Norm Murdock [:of human experimentation known as California, the rapper 50¢ movie actor also
Steve Palmer [:50¢
Norm Murdock [:put out his disagreement with the prosecutor's office that has reinstituted in Los Angeles the no cash bail policy. and he has said that LA is doomed. That's his quote. The 50¢ that l Los Angeles is doomed. He said just watch what happens now that Gil whatever his name is, that prosecutor out there. Right. Now that he he has reinstated this policy which was withdrawn, and now he's reinstated it, it it allegedly the first time around it was because we don't wanna crowd the jails with COVID infected people, so we're not gonna have, you know, we're we're not gonna have that because some people can't afford cash bail. And in lieu of that, they would go into jail. Yep. And And and so but but now he's he he thinks it's such a good idea. He's gonna do it from now on. No cash bail. And 50¢ said, Hey. Just look at the rearrest of the very same people day in, day out. I think there's one guy who was arrested 23 times. They keep rest in this guy. He keeps getting no cash bail. It goes right back out. Does the same thing. This is where
Steve Palmer [:The are we we we converge norm because this is, like, deterrence here. This is like I'm trying to think what this is. This is like a reverse incentive. So it's not just that it's deterrence if you get arrested and and you're thrown in jail. It's that you know that if you go commit this crime and get arrested, you're not gonna get or you don't have the money to get out. So if you happen to do get out, you don't wanna do it. You you that really might deter somebody because if you keep getting thrown a deal and you stay there, and you're not gonna get out until your case is resolved. People don't like that. I've been to I represent enough people at court sitting in the back of the courtroom linked up to the the big steel bar on the side of the wall. and they just wanna get out. And when they can't get out, they know that if they commit another crime, they're not gonna get out. But if it's not just that, Here, there's a stated policy that you will not go to jail if you commit crimes. It's like -- Yeah. -- you go commit this crime, I'm not going to jail. It's like, What's the you know, think think of, like, a little experiment where the Pavlov's dog is what I'm thinking of. It's like -- Yeah. -- bring the bell. Okay. Done. I I I -- Yeah. -- if I commit crime, I what? There's no consequence for me. And it's not even, like, you could argue, I suppose, on the other side. Well, there's a consequence because we're gonna prosecute, but they're not prosecuting either. You know? They're they're in fact, the story before here we just talked about was we're gonna let people out of prison. So Like, you know, to some extent, you're eliminating any deterrent whatsoever to commit crimes, and these people have shown historically like, the the repeat offenders anyway -- Mhmm. -- that they commit crimes. It has nothing to do with their color. It's just gonna be white, black, green, that make any difference to me. If you're Chinese -- That's right. -- and you -- That's right. -- and you've got 15 things a rap sheet. If you're white, if you're black, if you're Hispanic, it doesn't matter to me. Doesn't matter to me. You're gonna commit crimes, and there's one way to stop that person, you put them in jail. Yeah. Yeah.
Norm Murdock [:Go. Wow. Alright. Well, we gotta wrap it up. Another riveting episode in our 10 minute episode of Common Sense,
Steve Palmer [: : Norm Murdock [:you know, throwing his hat in the ring. There there are others that are that intend to run for the seat currently occupied by US senator, Sherrod Brown, Democrat, that have thrown their and Bernie Marino is one of the leading candidates We're gonna have him on the show in the studio. We believe he is going to be our guest for an hour and talk about why he wants to become a US senator representing Ohio 1 of the 100 senators that we have in the federal government. 2 from each state, we currently have J. D. Vance just recently elected. And J. D. Vance has endorsed Republican J. D. Vance, H. D. Vance, author movie and book, endorsed, Bernie Marino, a businessman who I believe his relatives came from South America and he bootstrapped his way from being a very minor car dealer in the Cleveland area to being 1 of the largest and has since, I believe, sold his interest in in that series of dealerships. So he has a Horatio Alger kind of success story to tell us about and he's running for US Senate. Yeah. So
Steve Palmer [:awesome. We lined up him for as a guest now. So tune in next week is that moral of that story because -- Yes, sir. -- you know, we're doing more and more of this folks. We're getting guests in there. There's a few lined up beyond this too. So the idea is to is to really share an open forum and have common sense discussions with people who matter in the community, and it doesn't -- And we would -- -- bench you are. and we wouldn't welcome.
Norm Murdock [:So if if anybody from the Sherrod Brown listen. We would welcome a democratic candidate. Yeah. You bet. So Sherrod Brown wants to be with us or call in or any of the other Republican people running for the right, you know, to to to win the primary running against Bernie for the same opportunity to compete for that seat. You're welcome on our show.
Steve Palmer [:You bet. Alright. Well -- Yeah. -- with that, we're gonna wrap it up. common senseohioshow.com for those who didn't catch it at the intro, you're catching it at the outro, common senseohioshow.com. You can like. You can subscribe. You can share. Do all those things. Go to where you get podcast. Do the again, all those things. And I hate to say it, but we're gonna wrap it up till next week, but a good episode coming up next week until then coming at you right from the middle www.commonsenseohioshow.com.
