As this is the conclusion of the focus group, out of respect to the participants and the overall process, please make sure to listen to part one before downloading this episode

What does it mean for White men to define their unfiltered experience, living in the US in the '20s?

Loran and Jenny host a focus group with four White men who share their experiences of race and racism in the US today. When was the last time you heard a White man talk about what it means to be a White man without supremacy or shame?

Are any stereotypes or tropes outdated?

What are we getting right?

What are we getting wrong?

In this second episode, everyone jumps into the same conversation together. From COVID to incarceration, to wedding invites and ass-less chaps the White male participants cover a lot of ground.

This conversation is part of a larger approach this season to talk about race at the intersection of gender. Please also make sure to check out Episode Two with Breakthrough for Men founder, Fred Jealous and Episode 8 "Beyond White Supremacy: Healing White Men as form of Violence Prevention and Harm Reduction."

==========

In the episode Loran asks the men to interpret the data from the Center for Disease Control COVID tracker which may be found here.

Loran fact checks current incarceration figures with data published in 2003.

==========

TRANSCRIPT DISCLAIMER: The following transcript was auto-transcribed by Descript software. It will be updated and cleaned in the coming weeks. Please reach out if you would like a transcript in the interim.

==========

Welcome to our podcast. We’re so glad you’re here refocusing on Whiteness without supremacy or shame. Listen. Like. Follow.

Instagram: @the.spillway | Facebook: @WithoutSupremacyorShame

For a transcript of this episode and more, please visit our website, www.thespillway.org

Mentioned in this episode:

The Spillway Community Guidelines

1. Engage sequentially. The show is a serial not episodic. We do this so we can build relation and find common ground and context. 2. We stay in our own lane. The Spillway is about White people talking to (predominately) White people about White people and White culture. We're not out here to critique anyone's actions but our own. 3. Our combined fabric of destiny. (3a) As Dr. King said, our humanities are deeply interconnected to each other. Racism negatively impacts me, too. (3b) The Spillway is one mechanism within a larger framework needed to sustain racial equity and justice. We're not a one-stop shop. 4. No one right way to liberation. We all share the same goals, but not every method works for every person. If this doesn't work for you. That's okay. Maybe it works for someone else.

This episode is two and a half hours long.

And we did that by design.

Very few people are going to commit to a two and a half hour episode if they

don't know what they're signing up

for.

If you're

here and you continue to listen, this isn't your

first episode of The Spillway.

Welcome back.

And don't worry.

We have breaks planned throughout the episode.

I mean, it took Jenny and I about three weeks.

Just to record this whole thing.

I just want to editorialize here for a moment in between the getting to know

you segment and the actual conversation.

If you haven't listened to part one, you will have no idea what's going on here.

We are not going to recap part one, and we haven't constructed part two

to exist as a standalone episode.

And the purpose here is to show how such a surface level interaction

is like really racially loaded.

And if you missed the intros, then you've really missed the surface.

Because in part two, we really start to see how, when we talk

about race and racism, we bring our biases to the table and to be clear,

everyone has a bias and inclination for against someone or something.

And with these biases, I want to bring two very important pieces

to the top of this conversation.

First, this is a slice of a slice of who these White men are.

This is by no means these men's full selves or characters.

This is a 60 minute window into someone's life.

Ultimately, this is a blip of a flash in the timeline of their life.

Secondly, this is a timestamp of who they are, were anyone with

Facebook memories enabled to know the shit we said earlier in our

lives can be an absolute cringe fast.

We met with these men five weeks ago from the time that

we've published this episode.

And within those five weeks, mass murders have occurred in

Buffalo, New York in Uvalde Texas.

The Supreme court has decimated the cornerstone of our justice system by

eliminating starry decisis through the leaked Dobbs v Jackson Women's Health

Organization, preliminary ruling.

I mean, the world is just different than it was five weeks ago.

And if I know and hold it, the whole world is different.

And I know that this is true, and I know that these men have changed,

grown and evolved since then to.

You don't know these men any more than Jenny and I do what we do know is that

what they're saying, isn't something new or something we haven't heard

before these men are merely showing us what they were taught to believe from

the larger swath of White culture.

And do they represent all of White male culture?

No.

Most of it, maybe it's all subjective.

I will say that this conversation is what happens when we speak quickly.

And this focus group is like that by design.

We are here to listen and respond to soundbites that are circulating

within White male culture.

Jenny and I have taken five weeks to try to fully process this interview.

And even then our takeaways are limited by our own education, our

training subcultures and worldviews.

We don't interject to shame or ridicule these mountain.

Let's be very clear.

We interject to slow down to unpack to better understand what people are

saying so that we can redirect more of White culture into compassion,

a empathy and understanding.

I mean, I have come to love these men, and I also wonder who they are as one of

the participants says, the more likely we are to understand each other, the

less likely we are to harm each other.

We can't fully understand each of these four minutes individuals and 60 minutes.

Well, and also if you think, you know, these literal men and who they

actually are in real life fuck off, they bravely agreed to talk with us so that

we can have this conversation today.

If you come for them, you're committing to setting the movement back.

If we can't make space for other White people to be vulnerable

and show up in the work, we have to meet people where they're at.

And with that, let's continue

on.

do we want to warm up a little bit or we want to dump right in the deep end.

What do people prefer?

Maybe so we can get to know each other a little bit.

Our speeds.

We can kind of weigh in a little bit, rather than jumping right

in, or what do you prefer?

I'm happy to jump in.

Let's jump in.

So I'm going

to share my screen

for a second, because I want you to see what I'm saying.

As I asked the question,

I bring up the covid.cdc.gov website, which holds nearly all

of the data you could ever want on COVID-19 in the U S and the demographic

breakdowns by race ethnicity.

You're met with a, well, at least to me, a surprising graft

on the left side of the screen.

Uh, there are these cases of COVID-19 and on the right side,

are the deaths by COVID-19.

The left side of the screen shows that the percentage of White people in the us

is more than the percent of White people who have contracted COVID and that's by

6.4%, there are more White people than White people who have contracted COVID.

And this includes repeat infections to a similar but lesser degree.

The same is true for Asian and Black populations, but the opposite for

Hispanic, native and biracial populations.

Then on the right side of the screen, it shows that White people

disproportionately make up more COVID-19 deaths relative to the percent of

White people in the U S population.

Let me put this another way.

White people.

For 62.5% of all COVID deaths.

Yet we make up 60 point 11% of the population.

This 2.39% disproportionate impact is more than every other race, ethnicity combined.

For example, Asian-Americans make up 3.3% of deaths and 5.7, 6% of the us population

or Black Americans make up 13.5% of deaths and 12.5, 4% of the overall population

making a 0.9, 6% disproportionate impact.

But I just want to point out that the percent of White people in the

us is more than the percent of White people who have contracted COVID-19

by 6.4% and also White people account for 62.5% of all COVID deaths.

Yet we make up 60 point 11% of the population.

Again, this link is in the show notes, it's updated weekly.

So these percentage points will change ever so slightly over time,

but check it out, especially if you're a visual learner like I am.

So this is the CDC COVID tracker, uh, and it says, uh, showing that White

people are the only race of people that are less likely to contract COVID.

However, while we make up about 60% of the population, we also account

for 62% of all that's related to.

So why do you think White people are dying of COVID at disproportionate rates?

I

mean, I'm sure it's racism within the healthcare system

has a lot to do

with it.

Uh, my first thought was just that I wonder if it's accurate and if all

deaths of Color are actually reported or looked at and specified to the extent

that ones in, um, uh, White deaths are, but I couldn't quite hear you.

The other responses from the forest.

Sorry, Sam,

what did you say?

I had said, I think that it's isolated in the sense of like, there's a luxury

of being able to isolate yourself.

I was like, so your grade motivated your grade of whatever.

You're afraid of you sit and you die like alone, right?

You don't have that exposure to like things that would, uh,

improve your immune system.

Oh, that's interesting that community.

of Color are more likely to stick with the community is just as isolating,

therefore the pressure, the protective factors of the communities, or what's,

I just want to, like, maybe we should highlight that they

misunderstood what your question was.

I know we're going to get to that, but I feel like at this point we

should probably just drop in real quick and be like, so, cause people

might be like, what's happening right

now.

I was thinking actually of cutting this part, but I thought

it was it's so interesting to me how they immediately go to racism.

Oh no, we should keep it.

Absolutely.

I just was like, oh, maybe we should mention just a little,

just a little be bap in.

Okay.

I'm done.

Okay, bye.

Um, one of my favorite things about, uh, Hispanic cultures is

they hang out on the streets.

And then listen to music, then they just chat and like living in Spanish.

And I'm like, that was my favorite thing to do people almost street.

Um,

I am a firm believer in the power of like community, like in terms of

recovery from trauma and things like that.

So, yeah, it makes sense to me, although I think it's hard to, I mean, just with

this data to, to decide on the cause, but

so to be clear, could you repeat Loran, the specifics about

the data I'm looking at it on this, trying to make sense of it

all shouldn't parents, not higher.

There's a higher proportion of deaths in White communities than in

communities of Color or, or the opposite,

not all communities

of Color.

Um, where did my questions go here?

Oh,

wait people, so it's the two next to each other.

The left and right.

Are important to keep in mind.

Uh, White people are less likely to contract COVID, but are more likely

to die of COVID related complications.

That makes more sense.

Okay.

The way it was framed earlier, I was a bit confused.

Okay.

So less likely to contract that makes sense.

Given like privilege and White communities, to be able to isolate, to

have access to vaccines, um, et cetera, but they increase the likelihood of dying

when contracting it to me says that there are more folks who aren't vaccinated

contracting it, who are unwilling to seek help, but that is completely.

Anecdotally.

Yes.

Yeah.

It's that, it's the two part of like Sam and T's got the first question and Jay

and teach, wait, Salman T got the first question and then J and T we're like what?

Hold on.

And you can hear everyone's like the click happen when the

question's asked differently.

But I think even when you look at that data, White people are

dying at disproportionate rates because while we make up like 60%

of the population, it's like 63% of those deaths are COVID related.

I think I'm saying it wrong that COVID depths White people make up

63% of COVID deaths, even though we make up 60% of the population.

And so it was a 3% surplus of things happening.

And so it really is.

There's like two questions.

And it's interesting to see who latched on to which question.

Um,

what I found very interesting was the, like, I'm a big believer in

community when we're talking about, well, just thinking about their

answers from the, you know, rapid-fire ish questions that we did at the

beginning and they're all like, yeah.

Community.

And then it's like none of their answers pointed to that.

They live in community.

And all of them, all of them are suburby, uh, type.

Um, it's just, it's just interesting.

And I'm sure everyone does this.

It's like inconsistencies where we're at.

We like profess one thing when we're asked about it, but then, you know, if we

look at our lives, we're like, oh wait.

Right.

Or that really beautiful moment

that we had with Amy Hillyer and like the third episode,

fourth episode, third episode

about inconsistency and how none of us have like a consistent ideology, but

we keep professing on as if like, oh yeah, no, like I'm totally consistent in that.

It's like, everything just keeps moving and playing together.

But they're like these White men who have all named to a large part, like a

level of isolation, and yet here they are talking about the power of community.

Yeah.

That's interesting.

That's a great catch

also

though, they did show up to the focus group.

Right.

Which

in a way is

a form of community, a form

of community.

How albeit, you know, it's anonymous, there's a lot of caveats there.

Right.

But, um, so I think that want, is there that I'm I think that belief is there.

But whether or not their lives actually are live that way.

Right?

Yeah.

And

this also, I think, shows the, the weakness of this research

and that it's not immersive.

It really is this kind of like tap into focus group, share what

you want to share and we'll have to believe it on face value.

And so, yeah, just to have to hold and find these inconsistencies, we will

never know what the consistent theme is that people will probably think

consistent the most inconsistency.

Um, yeah, but we're not going and living in their house for a

month and then reporting back.

No,

no, I, I don't, I don't know if this is the way it's

going to go in that direction.

Well, and you know, you don't have a lab, right.

So, or a ton of people like running out to neighborhoods and

knocking on doors or calling folks, or, you know what I mean yet?

Right.

So you to again, start somewhere,

start somewhere.

And these folks were kind enough to show up and be

as vulnerable as they could be.

So there's that?

Yeah, let's do it.

Or you could say that on Jane's point, you could

say that if the vaccine is.

A determining factor in dying permit.

Then these people who have the luxury of not getting the vaccine, right.

Say they don't want to, for whatever reason, but they have

more financial mobility, right.

Their jobs might not force them to get the vaccine, the beards and all the bag.

Is there data on that?

Like, uh, uh, broken down by race, on people, unwilling to get the vaccine.

Does anybody know?

I'm really just talking to them, like the job that I work for.

Um, it's like a construction company, but there are a lot of people

that aren't, uh, I don't know that just, they don't, don't give it up.

Like even if people just as White people give a debt and then no, one's

forcing them to get that vaccine.

Is there a reason?

Sorry.

Yeah, go fuck her.

Oh my gosh.

I texted you.

It's going through it says me speak.

Okay.

You go, you

go, um, inconsistency this like this luxury of not wanting

to talk about it.

Um, but then

earlier Sam's like, wait, people only want to talk about race and racism.

And so yeah.

It's like what has happened?

Right.

And he also, I hope this is right.

You can cut it out if I'm wrong.

But I, I also remember him saying that he works with a lot of people of Color,

but most come in

later than doesn't know.

I thought he said it in the beginning part.

Oh, maybe I think so.

Yeah.

He does talk about working

with folks of Color, right?

Yeah.

And then he's saying like, people that I work, I'm talking about, the people

that I work with that don't give a damn

wait.

Do you think that Sam is critiquing folks of Color right now?

Oh

gosh, no.

Uh, well,

I don't know.

I just thought I wouldn't have to, you know, in case anybody else caught

that, because I don't know if he, I don't, well, we should make sure.

Um, definitely we should listen, you know, go back and listen to that and then if

it doesn't apply, just cut the shit out.

But, um,

yeah.

Wow.

Yeah.

But I think also, you know, you could be referring to White people, um,

because the, those incidents, the death rates, if I remember correctly, it

was like native and Black communities both had like high incidences of

contracting and of death, like out, out of like disproportionate levels.

Um, but like Latina wasn't part of that

Asian wasn't part of that.

And we don't know as like racial, uh, the demography of, uh, the

people at this construction company.

Right, right, right,

right.

Yeah.

So maybe it's wrong to be like, oh, this thing, but I just

was like, whoa, that's interesting.

Yeah.

Another limitation

of the research, as you know, with it being anonymous route, we can

only go off of any of the information that's been shared with us and it kind

of like stops there.

Yeah.

You're ready.

Let's

do it.

Let's dive in

that.

Uh, wait folks, aren't giving a damn Sam and your experience.

Uh, I think it's just because they can write, like, I mean, I

think, I think that if you really want to dive into it, it's the you're

brought into this, this idea that, um, you can't trust the government.

Right?

Like, it's, it's like this weird, this weird dynamic that I'm seeing, which is

like, you can't trust the government, but yet you want the government to save you.

Right.

So like you distrust this vaccine.

Right.

So you won't get it, but then you're, you're asking for, uh, I don't know

how to word really any of this.

Right.

You're like asking us essentially everything that

they Marshall Washington for.

Right.

Like you're, you're, you're arguing that like you're a guy should stay in.

Right.

There's all the people that I worked with were like Trump supporting people.

Um, and they were just like, no one can tell me what to do.

Right.

And like, it's, it's, it's just, it's weird to me how it sounds like so many

people want the government to step in and do something, but then they're

also saying like, but I want to be left alone or I don't tell me what to do.

Right.

But the government's all about telling you what to do.

How does this differ from what Sam was saying during his intro of,

I don't you to tell me what to do.

I don't want to tell you what to do.

Let's just all what we want to do.

And

then he's like, well, if you don't want the government to save you, it's

that weird paradox, not weird paradox.

That sort of paradox is God.

I hate when I do that, is that paradox of folks, especially from the right,

shall we say, um, voting, wanting things for themselves, but voting against

those very things that they want.

Right.

Right.

He's like embodying that.

Right.

That's so

interesting.

Let's go back.

Okay.

I see it as selfish, kind of what you're describing, but this

idea of like selfish privilege, I have a right to sort of have.

Viewpoints and to do things how I think they should be done and how

actually pissed off, like you have a right to like, contribute to the group

of people or community that you're a part of and harm it or, or help it.

Like, that's what your choice is.

In my opinion, I think that's, what's missing in this country in general or

what I see a lot of it is a very selfish privilege, like a stubborn privileged,

like, well, it's because it's my right.

I'm going to exercise it like in, in ways that are decidedly harmful to others.

So you're saying like, even if Eve I'm going to exercise my right

on principle, even if that right.

Heart is me.

Yeah.

Or other people.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I think there's,

there's that thing again, of like in this country, you know what I mean?

Like that, that, that wall, like, this is what I see as an

outsider, you know what I mean?

I would've never have heard this

well, and it comes from my background.

Right.

Maybe I'm reading into it, but I just, I just like hear that tone of like,

well, that's what I see from over here.

Yeah.

So for our move, even though I moved here, when I was wet, like

less than 10 years old,

But I do think I really do love, I love that, that lens.

I really appreciate it of selfish, selfish privilege, because I

think that that's what it is.

But even then, like, I, I, going back to what we were saying, like previously,

like everyone should have privilege.

Like every, everyone should have the ability to be

selfish.

Right.

It

should be.

Yeah.

Um, you're doing it within like, um, uh, like a communal framework.

Like I'm not going to do something because I want to do

it, but it's going to harm you.

Like, that'd be awful.

Like you need to do what you need to do as long as it is like good for you and

the community like, oh, I want, yeah.

I mean, there's some really intense like straw man arguments.

You could use of like, oh, I want to kill

somebody.

Oh

yeah.

I guess you could.

Yeah.

You could go down that road if you want on it, but it's not going

to be pretty.

Yeah.

No, it's not.

No, because it's not good for the community.

No, it's

not good for the community.

There's a huge

amount of like prince, like people doing things on principle

here that I've noticed that yeah.

The, that justify doing incredible harm to other people

and your experiences and that's in juxtaposition to your time

lived in multiple countries, right?

Yeah.

Well, it's, I mean, I'm S I'm thinking specifically of this sort of collectivist.

I think that's the right one.

Um, a society that, that is sort of Southeast Asia communities and Vietnam

and Cambodia, and as just something different like this, something decidedly

different that I feel when I'm here, which is this real selfishness, like it sort of

permeates every part of, sort of, yeah.

This discussion about privilege and or COVID.

And like this sort of divisiveness to me is old focused on me.

Me, me, I have a right for this.

I should get this.

This is my, my expectations should be met.

It's just so selfish sounding

and I'm.

Hmm.

Hmm.

So, um, so I've been reading a lot of, a lot of books, like

copious amount of books lately.

Um, and they're all like finances or they're all, um, people who, uh,

like Tony Robbins books, like, uh, unshakeable or, um, what is it five ways

to, I don't remember what it's called.

Right.

You're pulling Hill's think and grow rich and running all these things.

And the common thread, like, um, even like the Almanac of devel rabbit camp

tune is a guy who seems like nobody knows.

Um, the common thread of these books is that if you want to be

wealthy, you don't get it for free.

Right.

The law of averages might say that like someone wins the lottery somewhere, right?

Someone somewhere, it gets, you know, something for free and there's

suddenly wealthy, but in general, the only way that anyone becomes well.

Is by giving of yourself first.

And I think that we've lost sight of realizing that the reason

why people work human beings work is not for the self, right?

You work so selfishly to give you yourself purpose, but you

work for your community, right?

And when that thread breaks, right, then you can no longer see how the

job that I do supports my community.

Then you float off into this hedonistic self, where it's all about me, me,

me, and then your advertisements that you receive, they train on that

and they enhance that your political leaders, they do the same thing.

Cause they're, they're also trying to get you to buy that right on all of

the stuff, uh, succeeds to separate you from what it really means to be human.

And you think that material possessions become that way.

Respect.

You need to respect this.

Look how great I am.

I have the, the orange spider.

I have the mansion.

I have the, the movie star, you know, spouse.

What really like who's the happiest person weirdly enough.

It's probably the person that like, that was their partner that they suck,

but they loved them to death or they curse them out like every five seconds.

And they live in squalor and they love it.

And they have company over and everything's just warm and

walking to their households.

You can tell that they love you, even though they'll say,

look, be that your fault.

Um, sorry.

Um, it's very Trumpy of him to me.

Like I'm reading a lot of books, so many books, a copious amount of, you can not

put that in there if you want, or you,

I actually

have my notes.

I have pathos written out because this human is trying so hard to like

gain legitimacy through character.

And so you should listen to me because of my pathos.

It's like, I'm boring out.

It's like on

point.

And like, we all do it.

Right.

Yeah.

But I just, I really love that doubling down of, oh, I don't want to be seen

as, or received as like an uneducated Trump voter, which is a very large,

very real stereotype that exists.

Multitudes, multitudes.

Yes.

This is true.

Something.

I didn't hear the first few times that I listened to this, but I'm

hearing now that we're listening in.

Um, and it was going to say in community, but that's not what I mean.

Um, is he says like, why does community have to be in squalor?

And they're like foul mouth.

Yeah, yeah.

Fell.

Now they have a lot of like disdain with there's so much love, I think,

undercurrent within it, to me, I think it's this really beautiful

portrait that is like the anti keeping up with the Joneses.

It's like this ideal of perfection, like calling someone like sweetheart

or babe, uh, kind of like critiquing the Instagram life, everything like

actually real life is like a Reddit life, rather this like really deep cutting

snarky, but homey thoughtful place.

Uh, but it's also just like really rough

around the edges.

Yeah.

Just

super rough around the edges.

That's

true.

I guess that's true.

I don't think I didn't like

receive it as squalor in terms of like how it can be used in this like

classist way of like impoverished kind

of squalor.

Is that how you received it?

Yes.

Okay.

Yeah.

Huh.

Yeah.

Maybe we just received a different way.

Oh no, for sure.

But I just don't know why I particularly received it that way.

Well, anything to Sam was also talking about like, uh, I

think like with what Fred jealous was talking about on the second

episode about being a success object.

Like so

much of the, the White heteronormative script has been

about objectivity all of our, our worth being conditional and

the movie star wife, the aright

spider,

what else did he say?

It was so specific.

Clearly there's been some thought put into this or someone said

from somewhere else,

but I do really love this idea that we don't work for ourselves.

We work for our community

and the further we get

disconnected from that idea, that reality we get into

this situation where it is about

me, me, me,

I think that that's where it's like showing me, Sam is multitudes of

like, I want to do what I want to do a, you're not going to tell me what I want

to do, but also I work with the community.

That's how I'm receiving it as I'm listening to it for

like time.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I can see that.

I don't know how I,

yeah,

I can't put my finger on it though.

I think also you says a lot of things in a sentence and a lot,

not, that's not a criticism to him.

I just mean that he says a lot of things and I don't always.

Like, I'm still thinking about the last thing he said and he's on another tracker.

Eddie.

Yeah.

There were two very different thoughts within the space.

Yeah.

Yeah.

So I, I think, I just I'm like, wait, what my brain doesn't have.

Hasn't had.

Yeah.

The first part is about

that collectivist society.

We work for each other and then there's that second part of

when we don't

work for a collectivist society, when we're working for our

own, we turn into success, success, objects, and our worth is conditional.

And so you have to respect me because of all of these

pieces that I have.

Yeah.

That demand your attention on your respect.

Should we keep going?

Yeah, let's do it.

Okay.

How'd you mind?

Do you have anything to add?

I have a thought that I'm going to try to connect some of these pieces,

but I don't want.

What I

was wondering then is if, um, we're talking about this, this idea of, well,

you know, I have the right to not take, if it is indeed a correlation of lack

of vaccinations in White populations that are leading to increase deaths or

percentage-wise anyway, is that then having to do, or is that a way of White

supremacy turning around and biting us in the ass for, you know, I have the right

to do this and it's like, well, yeah, well that might not be good for you.

Is that, is that kind of what we could be?

I don't know if that's what the data is suggesting.

I, yeah, I think, I think that makes sense.

I have a thought I'm going to start with a bold statement and then I'm going to

go backwards and then move back to it.

Um, I think Whiteness is killing White people and here's, here's my

thought that embedded in what she was saying earlier about individualist

versus collectivist cultures and states is an incredibly individ

individualist culture, or Whiteness is seen as the pinnacle and White

culture is extremely individualistic.

We actually don't see White culture as a thing that even exists because

White people are seeing just simply as, as individuals, right.

They're not seen as a collective, whereas people of Color are

often seen as a monolith.

And inside that individualistic.

Way of thinking there's that privilege that's baked into.

I can make my own choices about what's right for me, because I'm

an individual, I'm not part of a collective, I'm not part of a community.

And I have the privilege and the right to make those choices.

And my choice, I don't care if it affects other people,

because what matters is the self.

And I think that individualistic culture and Whiteness is so completely bound up.

We couldn't even tease them apart if we tried and it's that it's killing White

people.

Can we complicate this just to add in gender into this?

How does gender and race impact,

uh, you were saying that in real time and I started laughing,

um,

J just became a teacher again.

I love that.

It was like, I'm going to have a stapled statement.

I'm going to go into it, then I'm gonna come back.

It's so cute.

So

cute.

Has he said that thing yet?

Did I miss it where he goes?

I hear what you're saying.

So your favorite part,

and it's said with like the utmost sincerity, like he's like, I am

absolutely hearing what you're saying.

It's not backhanded at all, which is, if I said it, it would be,

I think Jay is touching on.

To me, why it's so important to frame this focus group is not for individuals

talking, but they are talking as a community because we, as White people

love to center individualized experiences.

And we miss the forest for the trees because we're saying, oh

no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no.

This is just one person's experience.

It can't be this other person's experience.

And that to me is why sharing these focus groups is so

important because it's showing

other people that there are others in the

world who act and think like you do, and that you are not alone

in your experience or in your

identity.

Because I feel like that's what silos us so often I'm like, oh, I've thought

this, but I've never said it out loud.

And so to have someone else say it out loud, you're like, oh wait other

people think that too, maybe I can talk about this more regularly.

Maybe I should talk about race a little bit more or be more

comfortable talking about it because I'm not alone in my experience.

That to me is where the

focus groups are so important.

Yeah.

No, that makes sense.

I'm also thinking about

what Jay said.

I'm trying to think if there's anything

that I wanted to touch on on that.

Was there anything

for you in Jason?

I don't

think so.

I think I might need to stop

overloading.

Yeah.

Cause I think things are not filtering.

I think they're just.

I'm missing stuff and I don't want to miss

stuff.

Yeah, no, that's totally fair.

Why don't we stop this?

Why don't we?

And we stopped recording that day.

Well, Loran, why didn't you just seamlessly tie this episode together?

Why are you even showing us this behind the scenes moment?

Because this work isn't momentary, it's a cultural shift that is supposed to

be sustainable of long lasting shift.

We have to go at a pace that feels good to our bodies.

It's to our hearts, to our heads, and importantly, listen to our full

selves when we need to tap out.

However momentarily.

I think it's critical to show that Jenny and I have at this point in the

show catalog roughly nine hours of work that we've published and probably

an initial 10 hours that we've had to leave on the cutting room floor.

Just for the sake of time, this excludes the hundreds of hours of

prep and editing that happens before we even have to get to the mic.

When you're hosting a show, people look to you as if you have

all of your shit together and that this just comes easy to us.

No, no, this shit can be exhausting because it requires that we

show up to every single moment.

Not only that in each moment, we're stretching ourselves to be

vulnerable, to be compassionate and curious all at the same time.

And as White people socialized in White culture, this is new for our bodies too.

And part of our experience of being White has meant that we don't always have to

show up or we can show up when we want to.

We can check out of the conversation for days and weeks, sometimes years and

decades, because we have had the social advantage of being able to tap in and out

of race and racism at our own discretion.

And while that's increasingly not the case, it is so, so,

so, so, so helpful to name.

Hey, I too need a break and I'll be right back.

So here's your friendly reminder, pause this podcast, not just the

episode, the whole damn series.

If you need a moment or two to catch your breath and recalibrate, and remember

who we are in this for the long haul.

So the longer we take our breaks, the longer it takes us to get back into

the mental, emotional muscle memory.

We came back together four days later to pick up the recording in between

another interview with our next guest.

Regardless, let's jump

back in.

Can we complicate this just to scope, add in gender into this.

How does gender and race impact each other like it because you're a man.

Do you see being like differently or because you're White, you

see being a man different.

Well, I mean, both are on top of the

food chain, obviously.

So I feel like they are

intertwined.

I'm not sure how.

Yeah.

I think for me, as a, as an individual, my Whiteness makes me

feel like I belong everywhere and everything, and every space is mine.

I can walk anywhere and I should feel safe.

I should be comfortable.

I have a belief that there's nowhere that I can't go, that I

shouldn't be afforded certain things.

Um, that's the Whiteness.

And then the maleness is like taking up space, being big,

being dominant, being in control.

So then when I walk into those spaces, not only do I expect to be respected

in those spaces, but I also expect to be able to take up space, even

if it's not my space to take up.

And I don't mean that overtly.

I think that's a subconscious thing that's going on.

I need that just happens because I'm a male and because I'm

White, I don't want to do that.

I'm not doing that consciously or purposely, but I guarantee that that's

happening pretty much everywhere I go.

The food chain thing came up again.

I know you saw me right in the chat, but

yeah.

So there, so who I, CIS men are on top of the food chain three times, right?

White.

Straight man.

Can you get more than on top of the food chain?

Is it like the tea thing when he's negative 42 on the Kinsey scale is

I think so.

I think if you add class,

oh man, that's true.

Yeah.

If you had class, if you add in the U S if you had class, if you

had Christian, uh able-bodied

yeah.

Oh my gosh.

You can just keep going.

Yeah.

Oh yeah.

Those seem to be like the major ones.

Yeah.

Maybe Jay, like, you know, somebody who doesn't experience the world or didn't

experience the world as he did, came to him and said this, hello, this thing.

Yeah.

Right.

Yeah.

I guess it's just, I'm receiving it out of the context of what he says later.

And I, like, I completely

forgot that he says that later on.

Or was it

later

that he says that

he says, yeah, he says it towards the back, but that's um, I guess that's,

it's just interesting to hold and that like the context that like we require

of other people and of

ourselves when we're situating ourselves in the work, because they

don't think, and I think that, that goes back into the, um, dislike, the inherent

quality or the inherent nature of people.

And anything think that that's maybe where this yeah.

I think that's where the speech back is coming for me.

Is that not all men take up space.

No, that's true.

Not all White people think everything is theirs.

Right.

And so for him to say that it makes me feel like, oh, part of this feels

like this, um, this repetition of what the left does of just like holding onto

these talking points about what all White people do are all White or all men do.

Yeah.

So

I guess I'm coming back to win at the, at the beginning, when

we were talking about how we're holding these stories as an example

of White men living in this culture.

And I was like, no individuals.

And now I feel like we're on the flip side of that now.

I feel like I'm like group experience.

And you're like, but not all, you know what I mean?

I don't know.

I mean, again, it's like you said, I believe you said that

it's, you know, it's, uh, you know, you can hold both, I guess.

Right.

We

have to hope both anything.

Yeah.

That's what it is.

Yeah.

What is the majority experience, but also, um, it just feels

so dependent on what circles

you're running on.

Yeah,

sure does.

Yeah.

When you're in your safe space, I remember you talked about, I remember you

talked about safe space versus healing space when you're in your safe space.

That's the view with which you look at the world,

right?

Well, I think one of the other things too is I was thinking recently, I

don't have a lot of says women in my life.

Um, like I think a lot of like the feminine energy comes from non binary

folks, trans women, uh, uh, fluid folks, um, like, yeah, I know CIS women.

Um, but because I know so few, if someone were to tell me or say like, oh, like,

how are you showing up as a White woman?

Or like, what are the like key things of like White womanhood

or womanhood in general?

I'd be like, well, I, I know three, well that I can probably say something

on, but like those three people that create this like broader universalized

experience, I don't feel like it's a fair

jumper assessment to make.

And when you say feminine energy, like when you meet, when you

talk about femininity, what do you mean

by that?

Um, something that is like not stereotypically or received

as perceived as male or masculine.

Yeah, maybe as I'm thinking this through, maybe this is just like

our warmup and we

won't include this in the thing.

I think also too, you're probably in the Tristan

Headspace.

I have a little bit, I am a little bit,

so this, this might be not a good day to do

this one.

I think

if we, I think we're okay to do this one.

Yeah.

I think we are.

I think I just maybe needed to have like a word vomit and get myself caught

up to speed here because there's some really good things that are said, but

also this is so discursive this little tangent that what I've taken us on.

So I like it doesn't feel like it moves the focus group forward.

Gotcha.

Okay.

Let's start over that's kidney.

And when you can't do that, do you feel that it's something

that you deserved to do, right.

If someone like resisted you from doing that, which would be.

Yeah.

Like if I'm, if I'm really honest about it, if I go into a space full of people,

of Color, whatever it may be, maybe it's maybe it's like somewhere in Harlem.

I had, uh, you know, my fiance used to live in Harlem.

So I used to go to places in Harlem and I would walk into a

place or a restaurant or wherever.

And I would be one of the only White people there, if not

the only White person there.

And there was a piece of me, some deep part of me that felt like that was wrong.

Like this shouldn't happen because everywhere else in

the world has been mined.

So why shouldn't that be mine too?

Like some piece of me has that.

I don't like to admit it, but it's true.

So I wonder, so he's telling the story and I'm like, I wonder where you

thinking that, oh, this, there shouldn't be this many Black people in one space,

or were you thinking, or this many people of Color in one space or were you

thinking, oh, Hey, no one looks like me.

And that's weird because your life is full of White folks, but

you know, no judgment on that.

I'm just saying like what?

That's a really good

question.

I don't know if part of me just doesn't believe him.

Not, I'm not saying he's making a February song, certainly thing, but part of me

just maybe thinks that maybe he was like, oh, no one in here looks like me.

And also I have that experience too.

And I walk into spaces where people are predominantly.

Uh, folks of Color where I'm like, oh, should I not be here?

Right.

Like, is my body not, is my body not welcome here?

Because you know, I'm, I don't need to be in this space.

Like there are other spaces where I can go or my presence isn't hurting

people or making them uncomfortable.

Right.

Well, well, I feel like if it is a healing space yeah.

It is about asking about, um, if you should be in that space or not, and

being really clear and transparent.

Um, but if it is a safe space, uh, or if it's a public space,

like a restaurant that feels

different, but do you think also, like he's talking about Harlem

and so

they're very specific geographical places in our world that are healing

spaces for very specific communities.

And so

I understand what he's saying of like, oh wait, I should be

able to come into this restaurant.

Um, just like anyone else, but also do you need to,

right.

Aren't there

other places that you can go.

Like I think, okay.

So this actually makes me think a lot about, um, bachelorette

parties and the gayborhood

and how, uh, so many, uh, straight says women like flock to a gay bar,

uh,

during a bad show.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Drag drag up for, for bachelorette parties.

Um,

and as a queer

person, as non binary person, that always just feels a little bit

like, is your world so sad that you have to come into this, like cornucopia

of love and vibrancy and the color?

Um,

there's also something really exciting about experiencing a world that

you are not supposed to be a part of, or you're not invited to be a part of.

At least I've found that like when I was, when I only identified as

straight and I would go into queer spaces and I'd be like, oh, I don't

belong here, but this is a wicked fun.

Yeah.

I mean, that might be different, you know, depending on the.

Community you're walking into or the situation, but

yeah, there's something that feels different about like being,

I think like, even as Jay's saying, like being someone's partner and going

into a restaurant together and being one of the very few White people,

like that feels very different.

You going into, uh, like an LGBT bar, uh, with a friend or with a colleague, like

that feels very different than bringing in

your own culture

into someone else's culture and saying, oh no, no, no, no, no.

We actually need to focus in central this, but I need you to entertain

me either

through a drag show or through the cuisine that we're having.

I need to be entertained by your other mess.

Oh yeah.

No, that's tricky.

That's tricky for sure.

Like, oh, entertain me with your, how you operate in the

world.

Yeah.

With your ethnic ness, with your queerness, right?

Like that.

I think that that's what he's heading on.

Oh, wait, uh, we shouldn't have this barrier one.

I think that that's like implicit, but that's also very

generous, but there's this?

Um, no, this is mine.

Mm,

and this is mine and this is mine.

Look at this place.

I was thinking of Steve Martin and in the jerk taking this.

And also then this chair also, that's it.

I don't need anything else.

Okay.

Kind of makes me think about like, uh, a common thing.

Something that I fell into overseas, again, was this sort

of, because one gets treated as sort of the pinnacle of privilege.

It's easy to slip into that.

And I would see a lot of ex-pats overseas who sort of lived and acted in a way

that they deserve to be treated like Kings and sort of taken care of because

it was responded to, it was reinforced.

So there's sort of privilege.

And there were others who recognize very quickly why, where there was a

boundary and where there was nice kind behavior and where it was too much

and made efforts to sort of limit it.

Um, yeah, so I absolutely lost my train

of

thought

now.

Well, real quick, I think this actually relates to a text message.

I received two days ago.

I have a good friend.

Who's a White female.

Um, who's currently overseas and she texted me and said, the people

here have told me I'm one of the nicest White people they've ever met.

And this is someone who does a significant amount of anti-racist training.

Who's a queer identified professional who does, does this for a living.

And I said, yeah, you probably are one of the only White people.

That's treated them with respect and humility, which was back to your point

about being an ex-pat and expecting people to treat you a particular way.

And she's not doing that because she recognizes how White supremacy that is.

I had a thought too.

Um, I'm not quite sure how this relates, but when I was in my early twenties, like

I was a little fucker, like I used to get in trouble with the cops a lot, and

I didn't like the cops and I would always give the cop shit and I would just kind of

push it, just to see how far I could push it past the trouble for something minor.

And

I know that

the reason I got away with it to an extent is because

I'm White and I don't know.

Another reason I got away with it to an extent is because of a man

or a male at the time, whatever.

I feel like there was, there was less of a chance of being either violated

or hurt or something to that effect.

And I,

I don't know how that relates to other than they feel like the same thing,

like the Whiteness and the maleness are two things that are going to save

me in this scenario, even though I'm

creating it myself.

When I was in college, I was 19 years old and there was a stoplight

stop sign, right by my dorm room.

In one month, I rolled through that stop sign.

Three times got pulled over by the same top three times, never got a ticket.

On the third time I stopped at night, midnight stepped out of my car and

started to walk towards the cop car because that's how dumb and naive I was.

And he started screaming.

Stop, stop, stop.

Of course I stopped cause I was scared and I turned around and I got back in my car.

Had I been a Black male?

I don't know that I'd be alive right now.

Yeah.

I mean, I've got a similar story.

I mean, in terms of race and privilege in those terms, I was, uh, arrested.

And, um, what was this?

This would have been when I first,

uh,

when I suppose the initial calls at any rate, I was arrested for using

a Metro card, my grandmother's Metro card, um, a figure, um, this was,

uh, and I got locked up and I spent a night in prison, down in the tombs.

And, uh, and, uh, I guy at one point said to me, how are you doing number 73?

And I was like, what do you mean 73?

And he quoted the statistics and I'm misremembering the number

probably, but that one in, um, 12 Black guys goes to prison wanting 17

Latino, or, uh, people go to prison.

And then one in 73 White guys goes to prison at anyway.

It was interesting that he quoted that as we were like in our little chain

gangs that have chained together.

Um, because of the entire time I went through that full process, I

was the only White guy in, you know, sometimes in a cell with, you know, a

hundred other guys or something like.

I was the only White person there.

And then when it came time, we were in this little cell behind the courtroom.

Um, and the first person they called was me and everyone was like, ah, yeah.

You know, like giving me a lot of shit.

And I like felt completely sheepish.

And like, I was happy to be the first in front of the

judge and subsequently be free.

But, um, it was very, it was just so blatantly clear that I was

getting preferential treatment.

Um, and I stuck out with like a

sore thumb.

Yeah.

And I just looked up at those statistics.

Um,

oh wait, my search terms were one in 73 White men

go to jail.

There are a few government run

organizations.

Uh, there's one called prevalence in the imprisonment of U S population,

imprisonment of U S population.

This is just like sitting so weird.

So TSA one in 73, and it's like probably misremembering it from

1974 to 2001, it was one in 17

White

men, one

in three Black males,

one in six Hispanic males and one in 17 White

males.

That's what this paper says.

And this paper was published.

In 2003,

which I feel like places this around, like when this happened.

Yeah.

When did they say it was

like, just thinking about, um, like why he was ticketed.

It was because he had his grandmother's Metro

card

and so it has to be before.

And so that would fall.

This would fall within that 1974 to 2001.

So that's the, like the one piece that I feel like is really interesting,

but the second is the most recent.

And I said this in the first part of the episode, White men make up

30% of the us population and make up 61.8% of the us prison population.

That's,

that's huge.

That's a huge discrepancy.

And for I, and they believe like, here we go, it's from

the federal bureau of prisons.

1.5% of inmates that are currently incarcerated are Asian 38.3% are Black.

2.5% are native American and 57.7 are White percent.

So Hispanics not included, which is

important

because, oh, interesting.

So in looking at ethnicity, A majority of people who are incarcerated

are non-Hispanic it's 69.5%.

So I think there is overlap there.

And so something shifted something's changed or, yeah,

I'm just like, kind of wondering where tea was coming from with 73.

I wonder if

that's just what the person told him.

Like maybe he didn't look it up.

Right.

Well, and he had also said a couple of times, maybe I'm misremembering

it, but that's like a fast mess

remembrance.

Yeah.

Well, and also he was in a space where he was the only White person.

Right.

So maybe he just picked a very high number in his brain.

Like his brain picked a very high number.

Right,

right.

Also 7, 18 73, like the seventh are

strong 7 77 seconds are strong.

They're strong.

So can I say that teach comes in to the conversation with like, you

don't hear from him a ton, but when you do he's, he's got a humility that

maybe the others don't necessarily have.

Yeah, but he's like, oh, well, can I say something, you know?

Right.

The other thing he said, and this isn't a quote, cause I couldn't write

festival, but about his White maleness will save me, even though I am creating

it myself or something along those lines, which I thought was interesting.

Also three White men interactions with cops, which could have been violent,

but weren't so that's interesting too.

And also

demographically, they are the three

that were non Trump people.

Like we haven't heard from Sam, not yet about the ways that he

would benefit from his being White.

Yeah, he

has.

He's been uncharacteristically quiet in

the phone.

I think too.

I'm just going to say this now.

So I don't forget.

We need to put like one of us saying and disclaimer about his story of, um,

potential violent violence is a trigger

for folks later.

Yeah.

Maybe we should talk about that.

Cause I don't, there's so many different triggers

in this.

Yeah.

So many triggers, but that one

is particularly hard because it has sex in it.

And he says that he would have killed that person.

I remember those words.

Right?

So that's something.

Given what we've experienced recently, we'd need to just, I think, just touch

that and you could, we could, oh,

sorry.

Love.

Go ahead.

And I was just thinking we need to put like a trigger at

the top of the entire thing.

It comes

out, which, which should have been for part one.

I'm not a big fan of trigger warnings.

Um, and so I think that that's something else that I've got to sit with.

Oh, okay.

Yeah.

Yeah.

That's fair.

Um, only because it does talk about, uh, White men, White men

considering killing someone.

I think it's important given the recent events that we, I don't know, I would

want to hear that must be like something along the lines of like, we know this

is sort of a tough conversation in general, but you're about to hear

something come up that may, you know, be a trigger for you, especially folks,

you know, who may have experienced like rape or, you know, whatever, but yeah,

you do.

Yeah.

I mean, we just, we haven't done any disclaimers as we're talking about racism

and like the atrocities of racism.

Um, but then to start

at

the atrocities of sexism, um,

but have we actually talked about like physical violence

cap ended and the pen piece specifically about like

cutting open a pregnant one.

Oh, yeah.

Oh

yeah.

That's right.

That was really jarring.

Yeah.

That was really jarring.

Okay.

Just a thought.

Yeah.

I just saw something about that.

Yeah.

I know.

I appreciate that.

I agree.

Cause I've thought like, yeah, someone's going to want this

chair and

people want that.

Some

people want it.

Yeah.

And

I think it's helpful because I do remember Ben saying that in the, the

panel and I was like, oh, not ready, but

also, yeah, we didn't do one last episode for suicide suicide.

Um, I

do at the very top suicidal ideation and also, yeah, Ben again.

And the episode before that White men have the highest rates of

suicide, I guess

maybe it feels a little different because he's saying it's somebody

admitting to it from themselves rather than us talking about it in, you know,

as somebody else's experience, but whatever you do, you do, you okay.

Should we get back in?

What time

is it?

It's 45.

Okay.

Uh, so maybe we hold off.

Yeah.

We took a break from this conversation for a few hours before jumping back in.

I remember eating my sandwich in silence then having to turn on

king of the hill reruns just so I could try to reset my head space.

I'm saying all of this, now it remind you too, if you want or need

to recalibrate when you're ready.

We jumped back yet.

As a reminder, ti was just talking about being arrested after using

his grandma's subway affair.

Yeah, I actually, it propelled me to go on and then do work

educational workshops with adolescents.

And again, when I was there, I think I saw maybe two White kids

in the groups I worked with over the course of an academic year.

And yeah, the racial disparity is massive.

Um, but I guess we all know this, so

yeah,

I wonder.

And I'm totally making this up.

I don't know what kind of statistics would substantiate this or qualitative

research, but what we're both what we're all saying and themes is

that we just got away with stuff.

We just, we just live in a world where we just get away with stuff.

So why couldn't we get away with not taking a vaccine and

it's the same

mentality.

Yeah.

And it's never, nothing has been stopped before.

No barriers have been put in place.

So why wouldn't people behave in a certain yeah, but it's so distressing

that like, I'd like to think that even without barriers, we don't

throw children off of toll buildings or like, you know what I mean?

Like, um, w we're I'd like to think we're decent people at heart.

Isn't that also like a figment of the times,

right?

Like.

Also it's weird because the, the statistics that you're quoting

are saying that more White men are incarcerated and everybody's

like, no, definitely more folks

of Color, specifically,

Black people.

You know, the thing is, is that it is disproportionately Black

men who are incarcerated when you look by population figures.

So like, it makes more sense.

There's more White men in the us than there are Black men.

And so they should make up their own sizable share.

Like if it was like all proportional, like if there's 30% of White men

in the U S there should be 30% of the prison population, that's

White men, but that's not the case.

It's like 60 whatever percent.

And the same should be true for Black men.

Like if Black men, where is it?

12.4% of all people living in the U S are Black or African-American

ethnicity from cintas.gov.

And so if we take that roughly 50 ish percent of the population is going to be,

uh, assigned male at birth

or assigned female at birth, we'll say approximately 50.

That means that 6.2% of the us population are Black mountain, but they make up.

30% of the prison population, 33%.

And so that's 6, 12, 18, 24, 30 you're five times more likely to

be incarcerated, uh, as a Black man by that number, then you are

two times as likely as a White man.

And so yeah, it is it's disproportional.

Um, and

because of there are just numerically, not percentage wise, but

numerically where White people, you're going to see more White people, but it's

also, yeah, like he's talking about, um, I don't think we're going to actually

be able to say that person's name.

We can't say any names actually.

So wherever he was, wherever incarcerated was like specific to a population

center that is highly diversified in terms of the racial category.

Um, but I think that they're also touching on that other thing that, um,

I think a lot about when we talk about disproportionate rates, that doesn't mean

that White

people don't experience that thing

either.

Right?

Like I think a lot about,

um, like Black lives matter, spoke at length about, uh, police

brutality and police killing of unarmed, uh, American folks.

Um, and they were very clear that like, we're talking about everybody.

Right.

And it's disproportionately impacting Black people, but they were like, whoa,

this is also happening to White people.

So you should probably be paying attention to this.

Oh, you to jump back in

and go back to the Holocaust babies with thrown up in the air

to San lieutenants who could shoot them for the depth of the ground.

Like, I dunno.

I mean, it's extreme example.

Um, but, but it's, it's tunnel like the same thing and it's

just not as extreme now.

It's like, what can I, what can I right.

Like exactly what we're saying.

Will I get away with,

I almost, I hear what you're saying and I don't want to that you

just said, cause that's horrific.

But if you look at mass shootings, it's all White men.

They still think that there's a space to do that, to just go into a place and

start shooting and just see what happens.

I mean,

again, the data point is pointing that it's not

I'll wait, man.

Right?

Um, this most recent one was in a White man.

Yeah.

I also

talked about this and the first part of the

thing,

51.7% of all mass

shootings are White men.

95% of them are met.

There's only, there's only been four mass shootings.

Since 1966 that have been performed by

a non man

woman.

Yeah.

Only four.

And so we sometimes get stuck in that potentially, you know, w how, how do we

get to that place where we confuse all men with, and then this is just making

weight people that default that's like,

I hear what you're saying.

That's just J the teacher.

I hear what you're saying.

But, um, I think a lot of it has to do too with like, this sounds awful, but

like Netflix and the true crime genre, like it, a lot of those stories are White

about White dudes doing, doing shit.

Right.

A lot of the serial killers that like are famous within the true crimes genre.

I think most of them are White.

So White guys in a way.

So I wonder if it comes from there, like not there specifically,

but like a media entertainment

thing.

I don't know what their motivations are.

I'm sure.

It's way beyond the psychology of going on is much bigger than let's just see what

happens, but there's gotta be something baked in to White masculine culture.

Creating this notion that that mass shootings and gun violence

is somehow a right or a privilege

in some way when I was younger.

And I think I still believe it now.

Um, I started on thinking about why these shootings would happen and I get

the feeling that they happen because there's no, there's no space for people

to express how they really feel inside.

Right?

Like if you do listen to what the average person says, or even just

everybody says, they feel say X inside.

So we tell people that we're wide.

Right.

And then saying, and then telling people that we're, Y reinforces the fact that

like we're uncomfortable with being X.

And we feel judged all the time.

And I remember nightly thinking, like I was into kink like years ago.

Um, and now I'm just way too lazy for, um, but I was into it.

And I remember thinking, ah, see if, if you know these violent young

men or violent men in general, or that people could go into a space

express their violence and someone's like, you know, cool with it.

Maybe even make a scenario where it's con non-con or something like that.

You'd get that impulse out.

And then why would you want to be aggressive towards anyone

you've already expressed it?

That was a really.

That's not necessarily the answer, because it's so much more than

just an aggression that you feel.

What do you like, what do you feel aggressive about?

You just said it.

I think, which is part of, and this really has to do with maleness and masculinity

is that we're not raised or socialized in any kind of emotional sense, right?

We're, we're taught to cut off from our own emotions.

So when we feel X, what we do is we say we're up.

And then that emotion goes somewhere, that emotion, that pain, that hurt, it

goes inside of that heaps up, it comes out as aggression towards self or others.

Some people, it comes out as aggression in substance abuse and

that's like aggression towards self.

But in those rare cases that comes out

as mass shootings.

Um, let me, let me take that step further, which is, so the person that I'm dating

there is I think a lot of talk in this focus group in general, about

a lot of violence that happens, uh, emotional, mental, physical, and Sam is

about to share an instance of physical violence that comes up, uh, that has to

do with impacting someone that he knows.

Well,

also, it's interesting how violence is tied to sex for him.

And the release of violence is through sex for him, which is terrifying,

terrifying.

And then we'll

pick up there that we're no, that's fine.

I just couldn't even realize.

I was like, oh, that's a through line.

Sorry.

Okay.

So the person that I'm dating, I was talking to her about how, like

know the other night I was just like, I was like in, in like a fit of rage

and I just couldn't get out of it.

And like, she's not here.

Right.

Not even close.

Um, and I was in this rage and I just couldn't get out of it

no matter how hard I tried.

And, and it took every bit of motivation or strength or whatever, just like

call her and be like, all right, I need to talk to you about this.

Like I wanted to sit and wallow in it and I said, wanted to sit in the one to

hate the world, but I wanted to do all of these things or do the one thing that

I knew that I knew would make it better.

Right.

And the second that we started talking, it was suddenly instantly, instantly.

And when we kept talking, I realized that the reason why I was in a state of rage

and like I tell you, I hated everyone.

What was not a person in my life that I was like, oh, they're,

they're, they're a nice person.

I was like, I hate you.

And I hate you when I hit you.

And we talked about it and it really was.

I don't tell people the smallest thing.

If someone bothers me, something bothers me, or I feel disrespected.

I say, Hey, you know what?

It's not a big deal.

Right.

It's just, it's just like one small thing.

Right.

I guess I should just like, you know, be a man about it.

Be an adult about it.

Be whatever about it.

Cause it doesn't matter.

And I filed that away.

So now I have a whole lot of individual anger episodes and

the reason behind the anger.

Right.

That I don't remember what the reason was, so I can't address it.

And then the, um, the anger itself that lingers, right.

That's stored up somewhere.

So then I go through like a fit of rage.

Right.

It's not as bad as years ago, but I remember, I remember years ago I was

dating someone and I had a horrible day and she goes and says, Hey, um, we had, we

had that stereotypical relationship where like, I want sex more than she wanted sex.

And I come home from work and I've been at work with 72 hours and I'm just done.

And she's like, let's go, let's let's, let's go do this.

I'm interested.

Uh, we're waiting for you for all this time.

And she's seeing all these lovely things, but I'm in a bad mood.

And so she convinces me, oh, this is so much better.

Right.

So I say yes.

And then we're together.

And I was, I almost murdered this person.

And then.

I lost it.

And I called up my teacher.

I was like, I need help.

Like I really need help, but it wasn't until something horrible happened.

Can we just, I'm sorry.

Can we just

silence all of our electronic stuff and figure out, do you know

how on that to make it stop doing

this to yourself when you're not talking?

At least

there is something in the notifications.

I think that one can adjust that I had to

do it once.

I think

technical debt,

we were

in some ways saved by the bell.

Um, but we got distracted by the bell.

Um,

it's to me, it's so interesting that now he knows that he needs to

talk about, and it needs to, uh, build better relationships with people.

But before it was, I don't even know how to talk.

I actually, I can't actually articulate what's happening for

me until it we're so far past.

And

yeah, it's just, I still am like, whoa, there's like this through

line of like anger and sex, you know, even when he's able to talk about it

with somebody it's with the person that he's sleeping with, you know, it's.

Like, why does she need to be the person to hold your anger for you?

I don't know.

I just, I mean, that's fine.

Like it's his relationship.

I'm not, you know, but also then he's like, and honestly he

said before, get your anger out.

Like, you know, through sex, like do these, these things,

he quoted some, some stuff.

And then now he's telling a story about when he was releasing his anger

through sex and it didn't go well.

So I don't know.

I mean, people can contradict themselves.

I just, I think I'm also having a visceral response to it and I'm just like, Ooh.

Yeah.

That to me is, I think one of the larger themes, like violence, yes.

Sex.

Yes.

Um, but contradictions, I mean, every single person has contradicted themselves

and we contradict ourselves all the time.

Um, but we don't, we don't hold their belief that we do that.

We are just these consistent beings.