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What Will It Take… For You To Let Go
Episode 627th June 2022 • No Halos Here • Jane Stark & Jen Lang
00:00:00 00:40:26

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In this episode Jen + Jane discuss the Mental Load that women carry, often by choice, when it comes to the home, minding family, and letting loved ones fail. This involves ‘letting go’. But it’s often not as simple as that. Listen in as they look at the many different facets and implications of letting loved ones own their journeys, letting go of others' (and their own) expectations, and how or where the patterns first showed up. Enjoy!

 

Additional Resources/Reading:

●     https://www.amazon.ca/Mental-Load-Feminist-Comic/dp/1609809181

 

Questions for further guidance:

●     What would it take for you to ‘let go’ of the outcome, or of how you think things ‘should’ be?

Transcripts

Jen Lang:

This is no halos here hosted by Jen Lang and Jane

Jen Lang:

Stark, the place to inspire a change in your consciousness to

Jen Lang:

elevate the world. We're to heart centered business owners

Jen Lang:

nourishing our inner rebels while growing our respective

Jen Lang:

businesses.

Jane Stark:

No halos here is the result of bringing together an

Jane Stark:

opera singer turned spiritual mentor and a marketing

Jane Stark:

professional turned while being coached to meditate daily.

Jane Stark:

Together, we unite physical, mental, emotional and spiritual

Jane Stark:

energies into a powerful presence to lead, heal and

Jane Stark:

inspire. We love exploring the shadowed edges of life, the

Jane Stark:

universe and beyond through honest and thought provoking

Jane Stark:

conversations. Let's dive in.

Jen Lang:

Hi, again, and welcome back to another episode of no

Jen Lang:

halos here with Jen Ling and Jane Stark. Oh, my goodness,

Jen Lang:

wait to hear what we have to talk about today. We just did a

Jen Lang:

little preamble chat. We're like, Ah, we're fired up. We're

Jen Lang:

fired up. So yes, it is like bless the mess and all the shit

Jen Lang:

in between.

Jane Stark:

Yes, bless the mess. But yeah, so today we're talking

Jane Stark:

about letting it go. Blessing the mess, letting the mess be.

Jane Stark:

And I think there's a couple of angles with this, though, like

Jane Stark:

that. We want to take this. So you're gonna have to stick with

Jane Stark:

us follow along? Because one of them is on the heels of our

Jane Stark:

podcast last week about self acceptance. Yep. And absolutely,

Jane Stark:

where can we sort of come into a place of more acceptance and

Jane Stark:

allowing things to be? And we can talk about the more. I don't

Jane Stark:

know, 3d human worlds, like, you know, letting your house be a

Jane Stark:

bit messy. Like having your daughter's music teacher over

Jane Stark:

when you're recording a podcast. I can hear the music in the

Jane Stark:

background. That's just my life.

Jen Lang:

I can't hear. Okay, good.

Jane Stark:

So there's that aspect of it. And then there is

Jane Stark:

the more psychological I don't know what to call it, but like,

Jane Stark:

emotional piece of like, allowing people to be in their

Jane Stark:

own process and their own maybe emotional mess without jumping

Jane Stark:

in and trying to fix it and save the world

Jen Lang:

and save the day. Right? Just because it makes you

Jen Lang:

feel better to do that.

Jane Stark:

Yeah. So one of the things that spurred this

Jane Stark:

conversation on was a post that I came across a while ago on

Jane Stark:

LinkedIn, by I don't actually know her last name a woman, she

Jane Stark:

goes by AMA on the big bad interwebs. And I believe I don't

Jane Stark:

actually, I feel like she might be European. And this is

Jane Stark:

translated into English. But anyways, she the link in the

Jane Stark:

show notes, yeah, we put a link to I have the link. And she

Jane Stark:

wrote a book, it's actually a book called The mental load a

Jane Stark:

feminist comic. And it's posted on a blog as well. So we'll link

Jane Stark:

to it. But she really talks about and impacts the mental

Jane Stark:

load, which for women, and we know, this has been talked about

Jane Stark:

a lot. So we're not going to go like too too far into that. But

Jane Stark:

then on her blog, she does these little short snippets, short

Jane Stark:

blog posts, and, and comics. And she talks here about how she was

Jane Stark:

invited to another conference about the mental load, and what

Jane Stark:

it looks like to let go and just surrender. And it was targeted

Jane Stark:

at women. And she brought up the point and she was like, when are

Jane Stark:

we going to have a conference to targeted at men helping to

Jane Stark:

support them about how to step up and take your part in the

Jane Stark:

household. And it just, it just is it got me going like I was

Jane Stark:

like, This is so true. And she talks about and she was a bit

Jane Stark:

like she just goes a bit, you know, to make the point, but

Jane Stark:

like she's like, you know, the responsibility always relying on

Jane Stark:

women to change to shift to accommodate, you know, women are

Jane Stark:

too demanding. Women are too controlling, you know, and then

Jane Stark:

she talks she says, So what happens if we let go? And like

Jane Stark:

when and if somebody else then he or she says if a man but

Jane Stark:

let's just say the partner or somebody else? What if you let

Jane Stark:

go and nobody takes over? What happens? The dishes rot in the

Jane Stark:

sink. The kids Jesus example, the kids don't get their

Jane Stark:

vaccines, the kids, you know, like, kind of just two

Jen Lang:

kids medical appointments or dental

Jen Lang:

appointments. Yeah. So

Jane Stark:

yeah, so that kind of got us really fired up. And

Jane Stark:

sort of this conversation about what does it look like to let go

Jane Stark:

a little bit and I do think there's, I think there's a

Jane Stark:

balance because speaking personally, I definitely have

Jane Stark:

had to let go and surrender a lot of things over the last well

Jane Stark:

basically since becoming a mother. And there is power in it

Jane Stark:

for sure. Like I am done. Definitely, because I think I

Jane Stark:

was I was, we got to look at why we're holding on. So I was

Jane Stark:

trying to maintain control in my life by having things look a

Jane Stark:

certain way. But it's because, again, more of an internal

Jane Stark:

thing. I don't have control over what's happening. Like, there's

Jane Stark:

all these aspects of my life that I didn't have control over.

Jane Stark:

So if I have control here, then it makes me feel okay. And I

Jane Stark:

think I'm okay.

Jen Lang:

Yes. And that can show up in different opposite

Jen Lang:

different parts of your life. So that might show up in how you

Jen Lang:

dress or how or how you eat. Yeah, but also how you keep your

Jen Lang:

house. And so

Jane Stark:

how you parent, how you pay, what else what to do,

Jane Stark:

how you run through your day from start to finish all of it.

Jane Stark:

And so

Jen Lang:

yeah, it doesn't, I'm gonna say like, obviously, the

Jen Lang:

easy target is parents, but it doesn't just show up in families

Jen Lang:

with children, it could show up in couples within larger family,

Jen Lang:

familial relationships, and that, that just partners part

Jen Lang:

like, yep, just partners. Yeah, like, Kirk, I don't have kids.

Jen Lang:

But there's different. I'd say that Kirk and I have a pretty,

Jen Lang:

I'm gonna say fairly even division of labor and chores in

Jen Lang:

the house, although I am definitely the record keeper. In

Jen Lang:

terms of like, the dealings like doing the medical claims, and

Jen Lang:

those logins and the filing of the paperwork and the life

Jen Lang:

things, that which is, again, a different part of the mental

Jen Lang:

load, which isn't always acknowledged. And I almost like

Jen Lang:

sometimes I have to point it out and be like, the dining room

Jen Lang:

table is messy with paperwork, because I'm taking care of our

Jen Lang:

filing. It's nothing to do with, like, I'm not trying to thwart

Jen Lang:

you or make you feel like this place is cluttered. It's it's

Jen Lang:

something to do with, you know, our life together.

Jane Stark:

Right. Yeah. And I mean, I think so it can show up

Jane Stark:

like that, for sure. It also can show up just in controlling

Jane Stark:

behaviors, right? Like, again, in relationship, right, where

Jane Stark:

it's like, don't do it this way. Do it that way, or don't do it.

Jane Stark:

So there's many different ways that it shows up. In my

Jane Stark:

experience for me, it was definitely I had to look at

Jane Stark:

okay, why am I kind of trying to control my external world so

Jane Stark:

tightly? Because I felt like my internal world or like, there

Jane Stark:

was all these things. So, you know, for a while there, like it

Jane Stark:

was my health and it was my kids. It was my discomfort with

Jane Stark:

my husband's career and his travel. Everybody's been really

Jane Stark:

loud in my house right now.

Jen Lang:

Oh, real life, you know, right. This is like

Jen Lang:

literally the perfect example of like, letting letting the mess

Jen Lang:

be the recording, and family labeling.

Jane Stark:

And that is something I think COVID has

Jane Stark:

actually really helped us with, it's become it's helped to

Jane Stark:

normalize that. Oh, yeah. The cat just crawled over my

Jane Stark:

computer. My keyboard. Oh, yep. My kid just opened the door. And

Jane Stark:

you're in the middle of a meeting. Right. Like, that is

Jane Stark:

one thing. I will say that I'm so grateful that COVID actually

Jane Stark:

really did help us just become more authentic, like, yeah, that

Jane Stark:

these are our lives. And this is how this is behind the scenes

Jane Stark:

and what really goes on. But I think today in terms of the,

Jane Stark:

like, letting the mess be. We wanted to also get into the I

Jane Stark:

don't know the side of it, where? How, I just think I

Jane Stark:

noticed. Yeah, go ahead.

Jen Lang:

I was gonna say like, letting the mess be is instead

Jen Lang:

of feeling like women have to fix something. Yeah, it's

Jen Lang:

letting our loved ones fuckup. It's letting our loved ones mess

Jen Lang:

up. And like,

Jane Stark:

not always trying to change it, correct it, fix it,

Jane Stark:

tell them how to navigate it. Exactly. And I say this because

Jane Stark:

I used to be the queen of that. Right? Like, and that's again,

Jane Stark:

that space of trying to control everything, right? Where, but

Jane Stark:

when we can't allow people to feel the natural consequences of

Jane Stark:

their actions, or inaction or inaction. How do you how do we

Jane Stark:

ever expect change to happen? They don't have to feel the

Jane Stark:

consequences. Yeah. Like it's so disempowering. Is that a word? I

Jane Stark:

think

Jen Lang:

it's disempowering. And it's also it's also actually

Jen Lang:

not in service to the highest good of your partner or your

Jen Lang:

loan, because you're preventing them from learning. The the

Jen Lang:

lessons of mice a brothel

Jane Stark:

here to learn. Yeah, right. I mean, it's the whole. I

Jane Stark:

mean, I'm, you know, as a parent, we hear the term natural

Jane Stark:

consequences all the time in the parenting space. And it's really

Jane Stark:

interesting to start to unpack it and what does that actually

Jane Stark:

mean and what does that actually look like? And what I started to

Jane Stark:

realize is that Like, as a society, we don't actually

Jane Stark:

really let people feel natural consequences of their actions

Jane Stark:

very often. Children are not. Yeah, like, you know, even think

Jane Stark:

about down to, you know, my kids aren't quite at they're not at

Jane Stark:

high school level quite yet. But how many parents wake their

Jane Stark:

teams up to get them to school on time? And what are you doing

Jane Stark:

when you do that? Yep. How is your team going to learn to show

Jane Stark:

up for work on time? When Mom's not there to kick them out of

Jane Stark:

bed anymore? In the morning, so why are we stopping them from

Jane Stark:

learning these lessons when they're 14 1516? And then they

Jane Stark:

have to learn them when they're 25 or whatnot. I was just

Jane Stark:

talking to a friend who she was we were talking about this, this

Jane Stark:

exact thing and how she had to I don't remember if she refused,

Jane Stark:

she said her. Her son is in his early 20s. Now, and and she I

Jane Stark:

don't remember when when he was a teenager, and she did the

Jane Stark:

whole get him up a door not. But she said she finally stopped

Jane Stark:

like he had his first job. Or one of his, like, first jobs.

Jane Stark:

And she finally like had this moment of like, Yeah, I'm not

Jane Stark:

going to tell you. I'm not going to nag you about being late for

Jane Stark:

work. And she's like, what happened? He finally lost his

Jane Stark:

job, because he couldn't show up on time. Wow. So he had to

Jane Stark:

learn. But we're coddling our children through this and not

Jane Stark:

letting and then and then the cycle just continues right? And

Jane Stark:

as adults, we do it to our spouses. We do it to our family,

Jane Stark:

like

Jen Lang:

do we feel like this is a family? There's some

Jen Lang:

breakdown here around generational aspects. So I'd say

Jen Lang:

that you and I fall into this broadly into jetpacks where I

Jen Lang:

was definitely like a latchkey kid. I was definitely a latchkey

Jen Lang:

kid, like, I got my cell phone from school. I entertained

Jen Lang:

myself until my parents got home from work. And, you know, that

Jen Lang:

was I was absolutely expected to be self sufficient. Got myself

Jen Lang:

like, washed to myself to school in the morning. And to music

Jen Lang:

lessons. Yes, my parents drove me when appropriate and when

Jen Lang:

necessary, but part I think there's partly personality piece

Jen Lang:

because I'm very much a self starter. Right. And partly

Jen Lang:

generational.

Jane Stark:

Yeah, I mean, we've heard you know, you hear about

Jane Stark:

the helicopter, parent generation and all of that. I

Jane Stark:

mean, I was sort of a latchkey kid, I wouldn't say I was a full

Jane Stark:

on latchkey kid. Not not as much. But I also I mean, I don't

Jane Stark:

know, I also had, for me, like, if I reflect on the high school

Jane Stark:

years and things like that, I had, I had a different

Jane Stark:

experience a little bit because I got sick. Right? In grade 11.

Jane Stark:

So I still had like, eight 910. But by grade 11, I got mono and

Jane Stark:

I had mono for the last half of grade 11, and first half of

Jane Stark:

grade 12. So I had a free pass to come and go to school

Jane Stark:

whenever I wanted to. So it was a very weird experience, because

Jane Stark:

I had no accountability, like it was, you know, I don't even know

Jane Stark:

if you do any more. But at that time, you actually I think you

Jane Stark:

had to have a letter, like a note from a parent to leave and

Jane Stark:

use, can you sign in and sign out of school? And I just had a

Jane Stark:

yeah, like I say, a free pass for I just came and went as I

Jane Stark:

could. So I don't really have a normal view of that. I don't

Jane Stark:

think but it's an interesting question. Because did our

Jane Stark:

parents not wake us up in the morning, or I don't know,

Jen Lang:

I think I remember, I don't remember my parents ever

Jen Lang:

getting the app. But again, I was always an early riser. I was

Jen Lang:

always very self motivated in the morning. And that was for a

Jen Lang:

whole variety of reasons as a teenager. But interestingly,

Jen Lang:

thinking of natural consequences. So I took math 12.

Jen Lang:

And around I'd say, a couple months, four months, three, four

Jen Lang:

months into my grade 12 year, I started hanging out with some

Jen Lang:

interesting people in a different community. And so then

Jen Lang:

my grades suffered, particularly in math, because it was such a

Jen Lang:

compounding. Like, if you didn't get the previous concept, you

Jen Lang:

could move on to the next concept. And so, you know, the

Jen Lang:

natural consequences of that was that my GPA fell and actually

Jen Lang:

didn't get my final grade 12 scholarship. So I was $500. It

Jen Lang:

was a every year you got more, but because of the academic

Jen Lang:

classes I chosen, and that one grade pulled me down just enough

Jen Lang:

that didn't actually get that $500 for university. So $500 in

Jen Lang:

the 90s went a hell of a lot further than it does now

Jen Lang:

obviously, but I understood then the natural consequences of

Jen Lang:

balancing a social life with academics write that, for me was

Jen Lang:

a very real thing now as an adult, yeah, of course I know

Jen Lang:

these things. But it's always helpful to have a reminder. You

Jen Lang:

know, we're because I was a self starter I would I, I still have

Jen Lang:

this tendency to overbook, my calendar and over scheduling.

Jen Lang:

And so every once in a while Kirk or even sometimes you've

Jen Lang:

nudged me and be like, oh, looks really busy. And like, it's not

Jen Lang:

all appointments like I put placeholders in there for taking

Jen Lang:

breaks and things like that. But I have to remind myself not to

Jen Lang:

overbook. And now that I work with my natural cycle with my

Jen Lang:

period and my menstrual cycle, I know not to book a lot in that,

Jen Lang:

you know, that couple days before in a couple days of

Jen Lang:

otherwise, I'll burn myself out, or I know I booked myself space.

Jen Lang:

So I know from natural consequence from getting sick.

Jen Lang:

And those pieces so i.

Jane Stark:

So that's interesting, though, because

Jane Stark:

that's because you were allowed to learn to feel the

Jane Stark:

consequences and have the consequences, right. But if

Jane Stark:

somebody was always in there, stepping in right at the last

Jane Stark:

moment to save you from, you know, whatever the thing was,

Jane Stark:

you don't actually get to learn that and then you don't, and

Jane Stark:

then you just keep repeating the same patterns and the same

Jane Stark:

patterns and the same patterns. I think that's a big part of

Jane Stark:

this, right? Like, we, again, like I look at just some

Jane Stark:

incident incidences, like in my own household, I mean, I think,

Jane Stark:

I think the family and parent dynamic, I think, both like

Jane Stark:

relationship, like spouse partner, yeah. And then family

Jane Stark:

dynamic, or the easiest way is to see where this shows up. But

Jane Stark:

you know, like, for example, when my kids don't like the way

Jane Stark:

my husband's parenting, and they come running to me, and I used

Jane Stark:

to be really, really, like, really good at jumping in and

Jane Stark:

saving the day, or course correcting or whatever. But then

Jane Stark:

I wasn't actually honoring and allowing both my child and my

Jane Stark:

husband to feel the consequences or to see like to, to navigate

Jane Stark:

their relationship and figure out what isn't isn't working.

Jane Stark:

Yeah. And so I'm actually blocking them from learning that

Jane Stark:

lesson, which, when it was put to me that way, I was like, Oh,

Jane Stark:

that doesn't feel very good. Exactly. It's hard. Like, I

Jane Stark:

really, it's really hard for me not to jump in and be like, Hey,

Jane Stark:

why don't we try it this way, or do that or this thing or

Jane Stark:

whatever. Because that's my own discomfort. With However, things

Jane Stark:

are going down. And so that piece, that's been my big, big

Jane Stark:

lesson, like I've gone through the whole, bless the mess of the

Jane Stark:

house, and let go of caring so much about what people think,

Jane Stark:

or, you know, if there's a mess here or there and whatever. And

Jane Stark:

now I feel like I'm in this next layer of like, Hmm, what would

Jane Stark:

it look like to let people actually have their emotions

Jane Stark:

about things to let people you know, be in their own mess,

Jane Stark:

like, and spin in their shit and not do anything till a friend of

Jane Stark:

mine called it like sitting in their puddle of mud, and go in

Jane Stark:

and save the day. And I don't know, I'm still kind of

Jane Stark:

unpacking where I picked this up. But I definitely picked up

Jane Stark:

this Savior, piece of like the I can go in and fix it or save it

Jane Stark:

or whatever. But again, it's, it's very, it's kind of from a

Jane Stark:

self serving place. It's because I'm not comfortable with that

Jane Stark:

mess. Or perhaps because of some ego perspective where I think I

Jane Stark:

can save the day. And I'm, and I'm tying value to my ability to

Jane Stark:

do that. So that's been really humbling to have to look at

Jane Stark:

those pieces. Totally. Totally, also really empowering. As I've

Jane Stark:

started to get over the like, initial UI with it. It's really

Jane Stark:

empowering to kind of be able to go, Okay, I don't have to fix

Jane Stark:

this. I don't have to save this. Like, hello, boundaries.

Jen Lang:

Yes. And that so much of this conversation threads

Jen Lang:

through I'm going to say through threads through so much of the

Jen Lang:

work we do, because yes, it's boundaries. Yes, it's a level of

Jen Lang:

self acceptance. And it's a level of surrender. And that

Jen Lang:

other broader acceptance piece and love can you accept the

Jen Lang:

journey and the life lessons that your loved ones are here to

Jen Lang:

learn and take on without interfering?

Jane Stark:

And here's an here's the clincher societal

Jane Stark:

conditioning puts a lot of pressure on women to fix the

Jane Stark:

mess. So it's not just like I guess there's some reflection

Jane Stark:

where I'm like, where did I pick this up? So Some of it is

Jane Stark:

probably childhood, a lot of it is conditioning, right? We're

Jane Stark:

conditioned to be the good girl. We're conditioned as women to be

Jane Stark:

the ones that go in the pathetic ones that like, Oh, you're

Jane Stark:

hurting, you're hurting, let me come and like make that feel

Jane Stark:

better for you to please to, you know, like, how much of things

Jane Stark:

reflect if the house is messy, subconsciously, who do we think

Jane Stark:

we go to first? Oh, she right keeps a really untidy house? Do

Jane Stark:

we think like, oh, wow, he really like he really doesn't,

Jane Stark:

you know, tidy up, I think we go to the woman first. That's just

Jane Stark:

subconsciously where we go to,

Jen Lang:

because women for 1000s of generations have been

Jen Lang:

traditionally the keepers of the household. So the parenting and

Jen Lang:

the parenting. And so all that, I mean, that is threaded through

Jen Lang:

our ancestry, it's in our genetics and our DNA, and it's

Jen Lang:

in social conditioning as well to this day. So then it's

Jen Lang:

important to look at that, and go, you do not have to fix

Jen Lang:

everything within the household, because otherwise, how will you

Jen Lang:

know how your How will your loved ones know? What's theirs

Jen Lang:

and what's not? And how do you know what's yours and what's

Jen Lang:

not?

Jane Stark:

Yeah, totally. And also some self compassion,

Jane Stark:

though, because and I guess I brought up that point about the

Jane Stark:

social expectations, because we're kind of swimming upstream

Jane Stark:

on this one, right? We're working against a very ingrained

Jane Stark:

system, as far as far as we have come for women's equality, we

Jane Stark:

still have a really long way to go. And we're still, you know,

Jane Stark:

on all of these things, we are absolutely working against

Jane Stark:

societal expectations. I mean, but it's interesting, even I've

Jane Stark:

noticed in my household now, now that I've surrendered and let go

Jane Stark:

of this, like need to have things, a certain level of

Jane Stark:

cleanliness or whatnot to have people over, we've almost

Jane Stark:

swapped where I find my husband is more conscious. And he'll now

Jane Stark:

be like, oh, like, we need to clean up. I'm like, Oh, if you

Jane Stark:

feel like you need to clean up, go for it before they come over,

Jane Stark:

but I'm not, which has also been really empowering. Because this

Jane Stark:

is an this actually might be a really good example, where I've

Jane Stark:

had to come to a place of accepting his discomfort, like,

Jane Stark:

okay, he's feeling like the house is not tidy enough. So

Jane Stark:

that's his own stuff to deal with. So from the emotional side

Jane Stark:

of it, I have to let go with that and be like, Okay, well,

Jane Stark:

and then have the boundary of, hey, like, you're welcome to get

Jane Stark:

it to your standard. Whereas in the past, I probably would have

Jane Stark:

felt the guilt and jumped in and been like, oh, yeah, okay, let's

Jane Stark:

clean up, let's like, did it at Ulta. And now, I'm at this place

Jane Stark:

of like, Cool, man, like, so it's like,

Jen Lang:

I have a similar story where my husband, we have two

Jen Lang:

dogs, both of whom shed and so this spring has been a copious

Jen Lang:

amount copious amounts of dog hair. And, you know, the

Jen Lang:

vacuuming and dry mopping piece where Kirk is, usually the group

Jen Lang:

will be the first one to pull out the Dry Mop in the vacuum,

Jen Lang:

because honestly, I have different priorities. And he's

Jen Lang:

very self aware about it. He knows that for him seeing the

Jen Lang:

dog hair and the Duster round is like disrupts his mental state

Jen Lang:

and his clarity of thought. He knows that and fully owns it.

Jen Lang:

But he doesn't expect me to do the vacuuming or the drug

Jen Lang:

bombing. He takes care of it because that's his thing.

Jen Lang:

Interestingly, though, when it comes to this is a slightly

Jen Lang:

different nuanced thing. He would rather see it out of sight

Jen Lang:

out of mind than actually take care of it fully.

Jane Stark:

Okay, I have the same issue same. Okay, let's go

Jane Stark:

to the issue. I'll rephrase that same situation at my house. And

Jane Stark:

just to backup for a quick sec to in my story that I was

Jane Stark:

sharing to give my husband credit. He never He is not the

Jane Stark:

one that makes me feel guilty. Like no, he absolutely like

Jane Stark:

Kirk, he will, he'll be the one that will get in there and

Jane Stark:

clean. It was me that was taking on the guilt and the feeling of

Jane Stark:

oh, I better like I better help or I better do this. Why not? So

Jen Lang:

Exactly. Like I'll offer Kirk might he'll like back

Jen Lang:

in the top floor. I'll be like, Yep, I'll vacuum the ground

Jen Lang:

floor. But I'm not going to get to it till tomorrow. So just

Jen Lang:

leave the vacuum at the bottom of the stairs and I'll take care

Jen Lang:

of it tomorrow. Yeah, and so it's bit clarity but so

Jen Lang:

interesting. So the sight out of mind out of sight out of mind

Jen Lang:

piece is more. I'm kind of like it's a little bit like the

Jen Lang:

clutter piece. But I guess if I use the my my I'm gonna broadly

Jen Lang:

use recycling as a as a kind of catch all term. So I recycle our

Jen Lang:

soft plastics and but I have to take them to the recycling

Jen Lang:

center. They don't get picked up from our house. So I have a

Jen Lang:

couple boxes by the back door. That is like one is soft

Jen Lang:

plastics and one is crunchy plastics. It's like it's not

Jen Lang:

rocket science. If it's soft, it goes in one if it's crunchy goes

Jen Lang:

in the other. And where do I still find the plastics in the

Jen Lang:

garbage? With paper? I'm like, I don't understand like, cotton

Jen Lang:

great. He's probably not gonna listen to this ever, but you

Jen Lang:

never know. And like, yes, my husband vacuums, he cleans. He's

Jen Lang:

more like, I'm gonna say he's more about the cleaning of the

Jen Lang:

counters and stuff like that, that I am. At the same time.

Jen Lang:

It's the it's, I guess it's like a dissonance between the there's

Jen Lang:

a cognitive dissonance between if you care so much about the

Jen Lang:

cleaning. Why is the recycling such a challenge? Right? Well,

Jen Lang:

it just it it's out of sight out of mind. It's like, as long as

Jen Lang:

it's somewhere,

Jane Stark:

or is it priorities? I don't know. It's like, it

Jane Stark:

makes me think of like, so Mike. Mike likes a clean car. Hmm. So

Jane Stark:

he will put like, the cars get cleaned. But sometimes I'm like,

Jane Stark:

How come the house doesn't? Like, how come? There's not the

Jane Stark:

same opposite thing?

Jen Lang:

I like a clean car. And Chris will say he does. But

Jen Lang:

I will find like three receipts crumpled up and shoved into like

Jen Lang:

the coffee cup holders and like or in the thing? And I'm like,

Jen Lang:

can we just like not shove it somewhere? Can we just bring

Jen Lang:

them inside? Recycle them do something with them. So it's

Jen Lang:

kind of an interesting, interesting, I don't know where

Jen Lang:

we're going with this. But it is kind of like it is blessed the

Jen Lang:

maths and let stuff go. At the same time having these open and

Jen Lang:

honest conversations and, and acceptance about

Jane Stark:

septons. And a lot of boundary work. It's been a

Jane Stark:

lot of like I say, putting up that boundary of if he wants a

Jane Stark:

cleaner house, say again, if I'm just using the example of house

Jane Stark:

guests coming over, and it's not to his standard, that having the

Jane Stark:

boundary of like, that's okay, I'm not going to make that be

Jane Stark:

about me. And I don't, that doesn't mean that I have to

Jane Stark:

necessarily get up and get it to that standard. And that has been

Jane Stark:

a big shift for me. And so that's the piece of like,

Jane Stark:

allowing him to have his feelings. And sometimes if I'm

Jane Stark:

being totally honest, sometimes I judge him for that, like, oh,

Jane Stark:

like really do just let it go and did it. That's me. That's me

Jane Stark:

judging again. So having to get to that place of just like,

Jane Stark:

Okay, you're not comfortable. That's okay. But that's not on

Jane Stark:

me. And sort of pull it back to this, like, you know, again,

Jane Stark:

letting the mental load but also letting people have their

Jane Stark:

feelings, letting people be in their puddles of mud, and not

Jane Stark:

running into save the day and fix it

Jen Lang:

and let them understand and feel and know we

Jen Lang:

can consequences

Jane Stark:

be there for them. So we're not saying like, be

Jane Stark:

totally cold people, and just like, oh, sucks to be you.

Jane Stark:

Right? We can still have empathy, and we can still have

Jane Stark:

compassion. But there's a big difference between that and

Jane Stark:

going in and actually like trying to fix something for them

Jane Stark:

or to control something or tell them how to do something or how

Jane Stark:

they should feel. Yeah, and all the things that if my husband

Jane Stark:

listens to this, he's gonna be like, Oh, my gosh, like, she

Jane Stark:

really talked about this because I, I think I did really used to

Jane Stark:

be that way. I'm still that way. And like, I'm still a work in

Jane Stark:

progress. But, you know, it's, this has been my journey of

Jane Stark:

unpacking this and like, wow, like, Okay, I need to really be

Jane Stark:

okay. With every with some of the messy parts, some of the

Jane Stark:

messy bits of life, like, my family doesn't look like the

Jane Stark:

perfect family, and that's okay. But I don't think my dad doesn't

Jane Stark:

because it's

Jen Lang:

just, it's family life is by definition, messy in some

Jen Lang:

form or another. And if it's, if it's pretty honestly, and if

Jen Lang:

it's not, you have staff. Right, I saw this, and like speaking

Jen Lang:

of, you know, learned helplessness and not understand

Jen Lang:

the consequences of actions when Kirk and I lived in Abu Dhabi

Jen Lang:

and Dubai. And we encountered people who grew up in homes with

Jen Lang:

servants and with, you know, staff who, like the kid walks in

Jen Lang:

the door, drops their bag, takes off their shoes and walks away,

Jen Lang:

and the staff pick up, empty the bag, empty lunchbox. And then

Jen Lang:

this child grows up gets their first job when they're 33 and

Jen Lang:

has no idea how to show up in the workplace. Yeah, so there is

Jen Lang:

something to be said for this, like balancing the self

Jen Lang:

sufficiency, understanding privilege and showing up like

Jen Lang:

learning the life lessons of like if you don't show up, but

Jen Lang:

that's the other thing. Consequences. So the three three

Jen Lang:

year old that I'm thinking of, didn't have any natural

Jen Lang:

consequences because of the way There, the social economic

Jen Lang:

structure of that country is setup. Right? They could show up

Jen Lang:

whenever they want, and they would still get their paycheck.

Jane Stark:

Right. So yeah, different cultural norms. But

Jane Stark:

yeah, I mean, I think, yeah, coming back to sort of this

Jane Stark:

natural consequences, right, like, we hear it in parenting,

Jane Stark:

but I'm really starting to see where we also in adulthood,

Jane Stark:

don't allow each other to feel natural consequences. Yeah. And

Jane Stark:

that every time we do that, we're actually not, we're losing

Jane Stark:

our mental load? Well, we are, we're also increasing our

Jane Stark:

enmeshment. Like, with each other, we're not. And we're

Jane Stark:

just, we're not like, what if we could all hold each other to be

Jane Stark:

whole sovereign beings, and actually trust that we can

Jane Stark:

navigate our way through things. And I know, like, like that

Jane Stark:

might be making light. Like, there's lots of situations that

Jane Stark:

come to mind where you can't just, we can't just take this

Jane Stark:

conversation and apply it blankly to every scenario. But

Jane Stark:

it's definitely something that, you know, I've been unpacking

Jane Stark:

and navigating that we see with our own clients. Like you say,

Jane Stark:

it's rooted in a lot of the work we do. And it's really fucking

Jane Stark:

empowering. It's very empowering, we unpack it, and

Jane Stark:

when we can start to step into, into that.

Jen Lang:

So yeah, I can hear there's some kids in the

Jen Lang:

background, but I can't it's not loud. I was gonna say that. So

Jen Lang:

for those of you who are listening, who might be

Jen Lang:

recognizing or seeing aspects of your life or yourself, where you

Jen Lang:

may have taken on too much of the mental load, or you're you

Jen Lang:

realize that you can allow natural consequences to unfold

Jen Lang:

more fully whether the person you are keeping in mind is is an

Jen Lang:

adult or not. The what are some ways that you can start with

Jen Lang:

this process? Some suggested like, one might be just

Jen Lang:

observing,

Jane Stark:

observing? Might I feel like my answer to this

Jane Stark:

question, no matter what episode we're on is a little bit the

Jane Stark:

same. But it's like, yeah, it's observing and noticing what you

Jane Stark:

feel about it. So stop projecting out Yeah. As to what

Jane Stark:

the other person is doing and start turning that mirror and

Jane Stark:

going, how's this making me feel? What am I judging about

Jane Stark:

myself in this? What am I trying to control? Because I feel like

Jane Stark:

where do I feel like I don't have control? So I'm trying to

Jane Stark:

control here? Yes.

Jen Lang:

And letting go of so hard, letting go of judgment

Jen Lang:

around this self judgment. And this is where the acceptance

Jen Lang:

piece comes in. If you have not yet listened to our piece on

Jen Lang:

self acceptance, go back and listen to that. Right after

Jen Lang:

this. That was last week's episode. This when we can move

Jen Lang:

into this reflective state. And this observation based. And

Jen Lang:

notice, oh, here, I'm noticing my judgment. Okay. About myself.

Jen Lang:

Yeah. Okay. So Oh, that's interesting. And maybe just this

Jen Lang:

phrase. Hmm, that's interesting, is a really good way to

Jen Lang:

neutralize the judgment. And then you can go deeper as we

Jen Lang:

went at this first begin. Yeah, the curiosity event. Yeah, what

Jen Lang:

life event if you can link it to one. But again, this is kind of

Jen Lang:

some of the work we do. So if you want to unpack it with us,

Jen Lang:

then definitely, our 321 countdown offer is like the

Jen Lang:

three sessions two of us. One transformation that's over a one

Jen Lang:

month period, that's a this is it. That's a great space to

Jen Lang:

start to unpack some of this. Yeah.

Jane Stark:

But noticing where you're gripping, like, and where

Jane Stark:

are you gripping in life? Like, where am I, you know, my friend

Jane Stark:

of mine, and somebody and I sometimes talk about, like, Oh,

Jane Stark:

I'm white knuckling it. And sometimes I can, like, look and

Jane Stark:

go yeah, like I and, and sometimes some of it, you need

Jane Stark:

an outlet, like, there are like, it's a that this whole, like,

Jane Stark:

there's a lot of scenarios in life where we don't have we

Jane Stark:

can't control. They're happening. They're hard, whether

Jane Stark:

it's like a family member is ill or, you know, relationships

Jane Stark:

coming apart or, you know, God knows, like so many different

Jane Stark:

things, right, where we don't have control. And so we go and

Jane Stark:

try and control other aspects. And sometimes I see myself doing

Jane Stark:

it where I'm like, oh, yeah, I'm getting super uptight about a

Jane Stark:

mess and clutter in the corners and stuff. Okay, yeah. Well,

Jane Stark:

because I know that such and such is happening over here. And

Jane Stark:

that's feeling really like, it's big. And there's a lot of

Jane Stark:

emotions and it's actually making me feel better right now

Jane Stark:

to just go and clean up that corner of the house. Like that's

Jane Stark:

okay, too, is when we're,

Jen Lang:

but again, that's taken action. Yeah. To help

Jane Stark:

you feel that, again, is more around like, then

Jane Stark:

we're doing that and we're doing it for ourselves. We're not

Jane Stark:

projecting outwards on to other people. I think where we have to

Jane Stark:

be really conscious is when we start to project that to our

Jane Stark:

loved ones when we start Who should on them when we start to

Jane Stark:

tell them how they, you know, should be what they should do?

Jane Stark:

And all the things because

Jen Lang:

it makes them feel like they're not enough? Yeah,

Jen Lang:

yeah.

Jane Stark:

Yeah. And then there's the whole needing cycle.

Jane Stark:

So

Jen Lang:

that's another whole other podcast episode when did

Jen Lang:

that but

Jane Stark:

hopefully this was a bit helpful, we're just trying

Jane Stark:

to unpack a little bit of what you know of what we've observed

Jane Stark:

and what we go through and,

Jen Lang:

and when you put down some of the mental load in your

Jen Lang:

life and let others

Jane Stark:

let others this is the other thing if you never put

Jane Stark:

it down, then you don't actually give the other an opportunity to

Jane Stark:

pick it up. Yeah. And it's such an interesting cycle where we

Jane Stark:

will put it down. So the other can't pick it up. But then we

Jane Stark:

become resentful, because they're not picking it up. But

Jane Stark:

it's like, but you're not putting it down. So how are they

Jane Stark:

supposed to pick it up? Like, it's, this is the thing, right?

Jane Stark:

I mean,

Jen Lang:

really simple life example here. So Kirk, and I

Jen Lang:

each do our own laundry. And part of this, like, for our

Jen Lang:

entire relationship, we have always done her own laundry. And

Jen Lang:

I think he did one load of laundry for me once I hadn't,

Jen Lang:

you know, like, he put a blouse and in a trunk, and he's like,

Jen Lang:

Oh, no, he's like, the thing that happened. I'm like,

Jen Lang:

whatever. It's not a big deal. But, and I occasionally I will

Jen Lang:

fold his laundry, but I will not put his laundry or his clothing

Jen Lang:

away. Because I will not be that person to be like, where's my

Jen Lang:

socks? Where's my underwear? Where did you put this? Because

Jen Lang:

I didn't want that mental load. And so if you apply that simple,

Jen Lang:

like laundry example, to other aspects of your life, then how

Jen Lang:

much yeah, later while you're meant to load babe,

Jane Stark:

can you put down and a be okay? If it doesn't pick,

Jane Stark:

get back or be like, give it some time, and it will get

Jane Stark:

picked up or clear communication, put it down and

Jane Stark:

be really clear in a very neutral, non emotional, non

Jane Stark:

judgmental way to somebody in your family, like whether it's a

Jane Stark:

loved one, a friend, whatever, whoever it is, really clearly,

Jane Stark:

hey, I really need you to pick this piece up for me, would you

Jane Stark:

be able to do X, Y and Z like sometimes it really comes down

Jane Stark:

to simply healthy communication, definitely, I no longer can do

Jane Stark:

this, I need you to do it. And that's another another really

Jane Stark:

simple but powerful thing. But yeah, when we don't put it down,

Jane Stark:

I'll never forget, I think I've shared this example on the

Jane Stark:

podcast before, but I'll quickly share it too, just to give

Jane Stark:

another illustration when my kids were younger. And you know,

Jane Stark:

I had my girlfriends, when all of our kids were kind of

Jane Stark:

younger, there was a number of times where I remember, like,

Jane Stark:

I'd go on girls weekends. And so many of my friends would lay

Jane Stark:

everything out for their husbands for the kids pack. Like

Jane Stark:

okay, the food, this is the food that's in the fridge, I've laid

Jane Stark:

out their clothes for each day of what they need to wear, or

Jane Stark:

I've packed their bag for bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla.

Jane Stark:

And it's like, Is your husband not a co parent? Are they not?

Jane Stark:

So but so much of it I saw was rooted in the need to control

Jane Stark:

how it was done with the child? Yes. Oh, well, they might not

Jane Stark:

they're gonna put them in, you know, mismatched clothing,

Jane Stark:

they're gonna like, like, they're not gonna be able to do

Jane Stark:

that, like, really, they're their CO parent, they should be

Jane Stark:

equally able to be raising this child. And without getting into

Jane Stark:

the whole thing about, you know, different dynamics that way.

Jane Stark:

It's like, how are men? How was the other partner ever supposed

Jane Stark:

to figure out how to do this with the child if we don't

Jane Stark:

actually let them? Or if a kid

Jen Lang:

wants to put a striped sock and a polka dot sock on one

Jen Lang:

day, and pair it with like a tutu and some I don't know, the

Jen Lang:

trousers. I mean, that's Yeah, it's like whatever, you know,

Jen Lang:

it's, it's again, again, allowing the agents not

Jen Lang:

experimentation.

Jane Stark:

Exactly. Because that child is eventually going

Jane Stark:

to go to school. And trust me, they're going to get berated

Jane Stark:

with the social norms of what matches and what doesn't and

Jane Stark:

know what happens if you show up all like mismatched. And that's

Jane Stark:

a whole nother thing. But yeah, that's like that is the prime

Jane Stark:

thing of natural consequence. Society is set up to have these

Jane Stark:

borders these boundaries to help us figure out how to they're not

Jane Stark:

always positive, but it's just the way it is in some senses,

Jane Stark:

but we're always jumping in there interrupting.

Jen Lang:

Yeah, exactly. Makes life way harder. So down the

Jen Lang:

mental low, we should start a song for each episode, put down

Jen Lang:

the mental load.

Jen Lang:

on that happy note, please put down the mental load and lets

Jen Lang:

the mess mass. let things be and if you want some guidance and

Jen Lang:

some support on it, reach out word, definitely reach out to

Jen Lang:

us. We'd love to help you with that. Alright, have an amazing

Jen Lang:

day, night time, whatever it is, you're listening to this and

Jen Lang:

we'll see you soon. and soon on no hay here by. Thanks for

Jen Lang:

joining us for these conscious combos. If you're ready to dive

Jen Lang:

deeper head on over to lead gen and jane.com to continue the

Jen Lang:

conversation.

Jane Stark:

If you love this episode, please take a moment to

Jane Stark:

share it with your friends or your network and leave us a

Jane Stark:

review by going to Apple podcasts. Find us on Instagram

Jane Stark:

at we are Jen and Jane and let us know what you enjoy and what

Jane Stark:

you would like to see more of. We'd love to hear from you

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