In this uplifting episode, Katerina shares the kitchen table with the remarkable Alexlouise Thomas to explore the transformative power of cooking, and the value of curiosity in making your experience of life come alive.

We discuss how cooking can build confidence, create connection, and serve as a platform for personal growth. Our conversation also delves into the changing landscape of food quality, the impact of convenience on our relationship with food, and the importance of intuition and simplicity in the kitchen.

Alexlouise shares her unusual journey as a chef, making a convincing case for the value of hands-on experience over formal qualifications. Our chat keeps circling back the joy of cooking and its role in nurturing mindfulness, connection, and a shift in our attitudes towards food, nourishment, and the meaning of life.

An episode brimming with passion and wisdom, shining a light on cooking as more than just a chore, but as a source of joy, growth, and family bonding.

⭐ SHOW NOTES

theintuitivecook.co.uk/podcast-ep7

⭐ CONNECT WITH ALEXLOUISE

website & book: alexlouisethomas.com

instagram: @financialfreedomwithalexlouise

⭐ CONNECT WITH KATERINA

website theintuitivecook.co.uk

community Simply Good Food Collective

instagram @intuitive.cook

youtube @intuitivecook

contact hello@theintuitivecook.co.uk

⭐ ADDITIONAL LINKS

Katerina as podcast guest on Financial Freedom with Alexlouise

~ Original music by Colin Bass

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Good morning.

2

Hello,

3

Track 1: Alex Luise!

4

Great to have you!

5

Alexlouise: Good morning.

6

Thank you very much for having me.

7

Katerina: Lovely.

8

So we, we had a conversation before

on your podcast that was, that was,

9

very wide ranging, so,

10

maybe we'll revisit some of

those conversation points.

11

But let's just start

Quite at the beginning.

12

Do you have a really early

memory of food or cooking?

13

Alexlouise: my mum used to make milk

bread, Platts, so it was like a Swiss

14

kind of recipe with milk and eggs in

the bread dough, and then she'd plat

15

it and it was like the most soft, doy,

delicious thing I think I've ever eaten.

16

And I've I don't think I've ever

managed to completely recreate it.

17

And it was the, it's

the everything, right?

18

It's the dough, the watching

it rise, the smell of it.

19

It's too hot to eat, so you have to

wait and then it's still warm and,

20

or just the whole thing, the way the

butter melts on it, the way actually

21

then when it's cold, it goes a little

bit crusty, but it's still really soft.

22

So yes is the short answer to that.

23

you know, and I'd have been a child,

I dunno what age, 'cause she used

24

to make it, not all the time, but.

25

yeah, and also, I mean she used to make

strawberry ice cream that I'm just, it's

26

so interesting you asking that direct

question and me going, oh, what is it

27

she used to make strawberry ice cream

when the strawberries are in season?

28

And it was, again, never tasted

strawberry ice cream like it.

29

And there's a whole, you know, it's 'cause

it's childhood and trying to replicate it.

30

And I think actually we used to

go and pick the strawberries in

31

a pick your own farm and then she

would make it and we'd use cream.

32

And you know, it's just that the

whole world of proper ingredients and

33

doing things quote unquote slowly,

that it, it impacts the flavor.

34

You can't, you can't buy

that in a supermarket

35

Katerina: Yeah.

36

Alexlouise: 'cause it's,

the whole experience is tied

37

up in the, in the flavor.

38

Katerina: Exactly.

39

That's the interesting thing, isn't it?

40

That how the memories are not

only connected to, to the taste

41

of it, but as you said, the, the

whole experience, the context, the

42

situation, the people, the place...

43

all all those things.

44

Yeah.

45

So, and do you remember.

46

So, obviously your mom was a good cook,

so do you remember learning to cook?

47

Alexlouise: I don't remember

formally learning how to cook.

48

I just knew how to cook.

49

And I think it's that being

around cooking, you don't, I

50

didn't realize I was learning.

51

I remember being 10 11 and making sponge

cakes and, you know, decorating them with

52

icing sugar and being able to heat up

a, like a long wire, um, skewer and make

53

the pat, like burn the pattern into the

icing sugar across the cake and stuff.

54

But I don't, no one ever

taught me to do that.

55

But I was taught all the time.

56

'cause every, you know, my

mom cooked all the time.

57

She made, she made everything.

58

And my dad would cook.

59

He loved food and he would cook

now and again when it was like big

60

meals, he'd kind of get involved and

he, you know, he can cook as well.

61

it's just that being around it

all the time and learning without

62

realizing, learning it, that I

think, you know, again, looking

63

back, it's really interesting

being asked this question that.

64

We have such a move in the modern

day to do formal learning and you

65

must learn how to do something.

66

And it's horrific.

67

I mean, I hated school, but actually

we learn just by being around stuff,

68

which is cool, but also devastating

because now children aren't around

69

cooking in anywhere near shape or form

that, you know, I was, I mean, I'm 43

70

and what's happened to food since I was

born is just, I would say devastating.

71

In an an unintentioned

consequence of convenience.

72

And don't worry, you'll,

you know, you don't have to

73

burden yourself with cooking.

74

I don't think there's any,

you know, dark forces at play.

75

I think it was all done out of,

don't worry, we'll help you.

76

And look, I'm really clear that

food companies need to make money,

77

but I don't think they did it.

78

You know, oh, we're gonna make people

sick and fat and all the rest of it

79

and take them out of kitchens and

children won't learn about food.

80

I think it was all done with a, oh,

this will really help everybody.

81

Katerina: Yeah, the, the

curse of convenience.

82

Alexlouise: yeah, it's devastating.

83

It's, it's, it's beyond devastating.

84

we don't realize it until we get sick

or tired or we just don't feel right.

85

Like, we're like, we

don't, we don't feel right.

86

And, you know, people listening to this.

87

If they can just connect

themselves to how do you feel?

88

And if you don't feel good about

the food you're eating or something

89

feels off, that feeling's real.

90

And it's, it is the curse of convenience.

91

And it's, it's, difficult to

distinguish because we are told

92

this is gonna make your life better.

93

And in some ways it does.

94

Right?

95

'cause you don't have

to be in the kitchen.

96

But on the other hand, if I eat

bread or strawberry ice cream, now

97

that hasn't been cooked in a kitchen

and I haven't had the full range

98

of experience, it's kind of empty.

99

It's just a piece of bread.

100

There's nothing else.

101

There's no connection and relationship

and smell and wonder and curiosity,

102

just the curiosity of watching bread

rise, it still gets me now as an adult.

103

You know, I make dough and

I go back a couple of hours

104

later and it's twice the size.

105

You don't get that when you buy bread.

106

And it's like all of those things

that we don't really know what they

107

do, but they connect us to something

far deeper than just, oh, I'm hungry.

108

I need to eat food.

109

Katerina: It used to be that

if you didn't cook or someone

110

cooked for you, you don't eat.

111

And now it's almost like cooking

gets in the way of eating and it's

112

something, you know, you have to

somehow, get, get around because

113

Alexlouise: Yeah.

114

Katerina: uh, cooking is

preventing you from eating.

115

So how can you.

116

Minimize cooking or get around cooking.

117

And of course it is these days, it's

perfectly possible to go through

118

life without ever cooking a thing,

119

and people do.

120

Alexlouise: Hmm.

121

Katerina: but interestingly,

even if you never cook a thing,

122

that instinct of you

know, what is good to eat?

123

We still have that because obviously

we are all eating every single day

124

of our life, whether, we cooked it or

125

not.

126

Alexlouise: Yeah.

127

Right.

128

I had a catering company.

129

It is longer than I care to remember now.

130

It's like, gosh, it's

nearly two decades ago.

131

And um, one of my strap lines was, even

a sausage roll should taste amazing.

132

And I used to make sausage rolls

and people would be like, oh

133

my God, these taste so good.

134

So like, alluding to what you've just

said, they'd be like, what did you do?

135

I'd be like, I made it.

136

I didn't buy it.

137

It wasn't made in a factory.

138

The sausage isn't full of

more bread than the pastry.

139

You know, like that whole, it's

real meat from outdoor raised pork.

140

And I used to buy the puff pastry.

141

But I tell you the puff pastry now, 'cause

what puff pastry is one of those things,

142

even as a chef that, apart from when I

worked for Raymond Blanc at the Manoir,

143

no one makes it, like chefs don't make it.

144

Unless you work in, you know, Michelin

star restaurants and in that, and, and

145

there there was a, I think there were

10 people just on the pastry section

146

who made all the bread and pastry

and all the rest of it from scratch.

147

So, you know, most restaurants in

the restaurant industry buy the

148

Pastry in and it's kind of acceptable

'cause it's a difficult one to do.

149

It is, you know, the pastry that

we used to buy 20 years ago isn't

150

the pastry that we can buy now.

151

It's different.

152

It doesn't act the same, it doesn't look

the same, it doesn't taste the same.

153

If I made you a sausage roll now,

compared to 20 years ago, using, you

154

know, the brands that we all know, like

just roll pastry or even, you know,

155

Sainsbury's, it's all butter pastry.

156

I don't know what they do to

it, but it's not the same.

157

It doesn't act the same.

158

It doesn't look the same.

159

But we as a, as a population,

we don't notice because every

160

year stuff shifts a little bit.

161

I.

162

So we don't notice a big, until we

have conversations like this and I

163

go, man, the sausage rolls 20 years

ago, were not what they are now.

164

We don't notice, 'cause we usually

compare things to last year.

165

It's like the population getting

larger, you know, from a weight

166

perspective, it doesn't really

feel that bad as such because it's

167

happened over the last 30 years.

168

And then I see a, you know,

a meme on the internet.

169

This is a beach from the

170

And it's like, whoa, what happened?

171

And it's the same with food

and things keep creeping in.

172

Yeah.

173

Track 1: but actually sort

174

Katerina: of quite surepetitiously,

175

Track 1: you mentioned something there,

you know, that you used to be a chef.

176

So, said you learned, cooking by,

by being around people who cook.

177

Alexlouise: Yeah.

178

Track 1: So how was then the next

step up of, of becoming a chef?

179

Alexlouise: Um, well, what's really

interesting, and I've, again, I've

180

not made this link before, is that,

I started working, I did some work

181

experience in school at 14, and I

didn't know what I wanted to do.

182

I hated school.

183

We'd only just moved to Wales.

184

I.

185

I was really struggling

just as a teenager.

186

And with, you know, just family dynamic,

moving, making friends, all of that.

187

So, you know, what I wanted to do for

the rest of my life was just not, I

188

couldn't, I couldn't do my life there

and then nevermind like, what do I

189

wanna do for the rest of my life?

190

It's one of the questions that really

actually annoys me that we ask children.

191

It's so like, it's like they don't know.

192

I didn't know.

193

And the ones that do it's great,

but a lot of children don't know.

194

So it was kind of like, well, people who,

dunno what they do, go into catering.

195

So I got a job.

196

I, I, such a joke, right?

197

It's like such a hard career to do and

the people that end up there, it it, yeah.

198

It's interesting.

199

So I did work experience in a small hotel

in Cardiff and I was Chambermainding,

200

cleaning, doing a little bit of, I, I

think I did a little bit of restaurant

201

service, all kind of, the memory sort

of collapsed 'cause they actually,

202

after two weeks, they paid me.

203

Which was revolutionary.

204

'cause at 14, to have suddenly

financial means, no one else in

205

my year of like 200 kids got paid.

206

So I was also like, oh,

this is pretty cool.

207

They paid me and offered me a

job and I said, yes, please.

208

And the work was fairly, know,

it, it was pretty basic, right?

209

It was a pair of hands, but I suspect,

because I'd done all this stuff

210

at home with my mom, know, it was

like changing beds or taking plates

211

to people or washing up, whatever.

212

So.

213

I did more of what

we've just talked about.

214

I just learned by being around the people

that knew what they were doing, and as I

215

went along, I learned more and more, and I

ended up then going for a waitressing job

216

in an Italian restaurant with a friend,

and I think I was like, again, 14, 15,

217

maybe not even turned 15 at this point.

218

And um, looking back, it's hilarious

'cause I'm sure they were just

219

like, who are these children?

220

Because you know, we thought we

were like also grown up and I look

221

at 14 and 15 year olds now and

go, did I really look that young?

222

'cause I felt very grown up.

223

they said, no, you can't have

a waitressing job, but you

224

can wash pots if you want.

225

And we went, yeah, okay, fine.

226

Whatever.

227

It'll get us in the door 'cause

they kind of said, and then you

228

can become a waitress later.

229

So we were like, yes.

230

Okay.

231

So then I was washing pots and when there

weren't pots to wash, I prepped veg.

232

So I was like chopping boxes of mushrooms,

peeling onions, picking spinach.

233

It was an Italian restaurant, so,

you know, all, all different veg.

234

And um, mark, the chef

said, what are you gonna do?

235

You like, I did my GCSEs when I

was still 15 because my birthday's

236

in July, so my GCSEs were done.

237

He was like, right, whatcha gonna do?

238

And I said.

239

I don't know.

240

I hate school and I'm

certainly not going back there.

241

He said, you want a job?

242

And that was it.

243

I was in, and instead of them pot

washing, I was in the kitchen all the

244

time, but again, I was only 15, so I

was just, I just learned, they just

245

showed me what to do and I did it.

246

And within a year I was

running the downstairs kitchen.

247

There was like, it was a three

story Italian restaurant and I'd

248

done the pizza section, starter

section, the pasta and meat section.

249

So at Christmas time I'd

run with another chef.

250

I don't know, we did, I think

we had about 40 or 50 covers

251

customers down on that floor.

252

And we'd just do it together I

could run a section on my own

253

and do 150 covers upstairs.

254

Wasn't easy, but I could do it.

255

And I did it just 'cause I'd learn.

256

'cause I watched the people that were

there and I wasn't under this enforced

257

learning environment like school where

you're told you need to know this.

258

I was just learning.

259

'cause that's what everyone did

and yeah, so baptism of fire,

260

but what an amazing way to learn.

261

Really, you know, powerful and,

and hard and all of it, like the

262

whole thing, like so many hours.

263

So little pay wouldn't

change it for the world.

264

I'd do it all over again.

265

I'd recommend that.

266

I don't think kids are even

allowed to do that now.

267

I, I think they'd actually not be allowed

to do that, which I think is devastating

268

for children who actually, you know,

older children who actually wanna get

269

their hands involved in something.

270

You know, by the time I was 18

I was working for Raymond Blanc

271

at its Michelin Star restaurant.

272

And again, I went back to the bottom of

the pile and I started on the veg section.

273

And then I worked my way, way

round every, every section.

274

And I learnt by seeing

what people were doing.

275

you know, there was no

far formal classroom.

276

And at 18 there were people

who were coming out of catering

277

college who, guess what?

278

They had to start at the

bottom and pick spinach.

279

So I'd had, you know, four years of

full-time experience and full-Time

280

in catering is 60 to 80 hours a week.

281

It's no joke.

282

So I was really qualified by this point,

whereas the people that had been formally

283

taught in college, it was like they were

coming into a kitchen for the first time.

284

Track 1: That's really interesting to see.

285

You know, we, we forget that

learning is something that

286

happens, you know, every second of.

287

Us being awake, you know, when you're

a child even, uh, a lot more so,

288

because you have to learn everything.

289

But we don't just learn when

we are being sat down to

290

Alexlouise: Taught

291

Track 1: You know, we just learn by, by

going through life every step of the way.

292

So that's interesting.

293

So even as a chef.

294

You didn't have a formal qualification.

295

You just learned on the job, as I

assume, you know, also chefs used to do.

296

Yeah.

297

Alexlouise: Yeah, and I mean, I, and

I'd say anyone listening to this who's

298

thinking about, you know, going to work

in a kitchen, go find your favorite

299

restaurant and offer to wash the pots.

300

'cause you'll learn more

that way than anything.

301

And then inevitably, within probably

a few weeks, maybe a couple of

302

months, they'll be short-staffed,

or they already are short-staffed.

303

So you'll end up doing more

and then bang, you're in.

304

Like this this idea that, oh, I

must go and get a qualification

305

so I can go into a kitchen.

306

That's actually it.

307

It sets you backwards, you know?

308

It, it's, and it's completely

counterintuitive 'cause we're told

309

you must have a qualification.

310

You need to go to university.

311

You'll never make anything of your

life if you don't have a qualification.

312

It's not true.

313

It might be if you're gonna be a

doctor or a vet or a lawyer where

314

you, you know, you really do like, you

have to learn some stuff in that way.

315

But for a lot of jobs you don't.

316

And I'd say for a lot of jobs

that aren't being taken by ai.

317

You don't need a qualification.

318

There's the paradox.

319

We're sending everyone to university,

telling everyone they need all

320

this, these qualifications.

321

They're the easiest jobs

to wipe out with a ai.

322

Track 1: That is a really good point.

323

I haven't hadn't looked at this that way.

324

Alexlouise: Yeah.

325

Track 1: But also it's interesting

that, you know, hearing your story and

326

thinking about the fact that you know

me as, as the intuitive cook, sort

327

of teaching other people how to cook

intuitively, I really have this hangup

328

that, you I'm not a qualified chef

or you know, I have no qualification.

329

Alexlouise: Neither am I I love that

we've just realized that, or that

330

you've had that, because we've spoken

before about this, but I've never met,

331

looked at it like that before either.

332

Like, neither have I.

333

Track 1: and as you said, you,

are not in catering anymore.

334

You don't work as a chef anymore.

335

You're now, you know, a, a

mom of two young children.

336

You're a really busy money coach, so

you are, you know, a really busy person

337

like, like we all are but you know,

you still need to feed your family.

338

So has the experience you had as

a chef, does it help you, being an

339

everyday person, feeding a family, or

is that just a different kind of thing?

340

Alexlouise: I think it makes it

much easier for me and I'm aware

341

that I don't, know what it feels

like not to be able to cook, right?

342

So I find it quite hard to

comprehend not being able to cook.

343

Like when people say I can't

cook, my first question is,

344

what the F do you eat then?

345

'cause like, I, I really struggle

to get my head around that.

346

So I'm aware that.

347

I can cook very fast.

348

I can cook intuitively, but that's

because, you know, chefs end up

349

kind of having, well, not all

chefs, but a lot of chefs learn.

350

You know, we, we know all of the, it's

like the, the things that you talked

351

about, which by the way, when you talked

about food layering and patterns, I

352

was like, whoa, I've never taught,

thought about it like that before.

353

So it makes it easier and faster

for me because I've just, you

354

know, it's repetition, right?

355

I've chopped more mushrooms

than I care to imagine.

356

Like you, I could probably fill this

room and more with the number of

357

mushrooms I've chopped, and by very

definition it means I can chop very fast.

358

But I also don't think that,

you know, in, in terms of like

359

how long that actually takes.

360

It's kind of fractional, you know, I've

still gotta get a pan out of a cupboard

361

and I still have to decide what to

cook and I still have to do the shop.

362

You know, like cooking is such a, it

starts with what's the meal plan for

363

the week, even if it's in a broad...

364

I don't kind of have a very rigid

plan, but I kind of know, well, I'm

365

gonna have a whole chicken and some

steaks and a pack of sausages and some

366

stewing lamb and I'll, you know, I'll

buy some mince meat and then I'll.

367

you know, once the week starts to

settle, I'll decide which days are a

368

bigger cooking day and which are less.

369

And I always cook three times

as much as we need, and then

370

put two thirds in the freezer.

371

So then on a day when I'm

really busy, I just get, like,

372

today we're having bolognese.

373

I made it last week.

374

You know, it was in the freezer.

375

I took it out last night.

376

I put it in the fridge.

377

I'm gonna cook some pasta.

378

I'll make some salad.

379

Dinner's gonna take me, it's probably

quicker than microwaving a meal.

380

Today, but you know, the

other day I made bolognese,

381

Track 1: Yeah, but obviously it

doesn't take that much longer to make.

382

twice as much,

383

Alexlouise: Yeah, it doesn't, it

really doesn't because actually once

384

you're cooking all the other pieces,

if you're cooking for one or 10, the

385

thinking about the meal, they're going

shopping, they're getting the pan out.

386

The only bit that actually takes

a bit longer is the chopping.

387

Everything else takes

the same amount of time.

388

Track 1: And this is something,

you know, I, I Try to, make people

389

realize that the actual cooking

isn't taking that much time.

390

It's this whole sort of, the most

of the brain space is being taken

391

up by, by us overthinking it,

392

Alexlouise: Yeah.

393

Completely.

394

Yeah.

395

Track 1: having to, you know, planning

it and shopping for it and, and

396

trying to get your head around the

recipe and following the steps and all

397

the frustrations that come with it.

398

So, when you start cooking a

bit more intuitively, then a

399

lot of this just falls away.

400

well, you, you, you're

not overthinking it.

401

Alexlouise: Yeah, and you

can do stuff differently.

402

You can do stuff without recipe, so

you can pull a meal out of somewhere,

403

which If you can't cook it's, you know,

the classic people look in the fridge

404

and they go, there's nothing to eat.

405

And I'm like, the fridge

is fucking full man.

406

Like, you've got lots of stuff there.

407

We could whip up or we

made frittata yesterday.

408

Which was inspired by your

Instagram video by the way.

409

'cause you were like, these are all the

things you could do with the frittata.

410

I was like, I've only ever thought

of it as a chef, where you have

411

onions and potatoes and you have

to cook it this way and that's it.

412

And I was like, oh, I've got loads

of cooked potatoes left and there's

413

some hallumi that's been hanging

around in the fridge forever and I've

414

got an old onion that's starting to

sprout and you know, I chucked it

415

all together and put the eggs in.

416

And we had frittata for lunch yesterday.

417

We've got a lunch today

because I made a huge one.

418

But it makes it, it actually

makes it less time I could have

419

looked in the fridge yesterday

and gone, there's nothing to eat.

420

' cause there's not a meal ready.

421

Track 1: Yeah, I think there

is quite something about this

422

concept of, of thinking in meals.

423

you know, if you think in meals, then

it's all quite rigid and, you know, you

424

can only make the meal with 1, 2,

3 x, y, z specific ingredients.

425

But if you think of it in a, in a

pattern, like a frittata is basically

426

stuff baked with a mix of eggs.

427

You know,

428

the stuff could be anything.

429

You can't make a frittata

without eggs, okay.

430

Well, you can actually, you gram

flour, chickpea flour instead of eggs.

431

Alexlouise: Ooh, I didn't know that.

432

Track 1: yeah.

433

Katerina: It's interesting how, you

know, you find out about one thing

434

and then you think, oh, you could

combine it with that thing and then,

435

you know, you Google it and it a thing.

436

So, uh, uh, I found this recipe about

some, an Italian dish, which is called

437

farinata, which is basically like a,

and and you mix the chickpea flour with.

438

Lots of water and lots of olive oil and

let stand for a while, and then you can,

439

and then you sort of cook it in the oven.

440

You can either, you know, cook

it like a pancake or cook it on

441

a, on a tray, it into pieces.

442

So there was one thing.

443

and then when, you know, I started

talking on Instagram or in my blog

444

and what would be, you know, The free

version, and I yeah, you could, you

445

know, instead of putting pancake squares,

you could add the vegetables in it.

446

Which is, which is what

you do with a frittata.

447

And then you know, chickpea

frittata, frittata, and.

448

And it's all there, you

know, it's versions.

449

I I remember sometime ago I

of, um, a cabbage carbonara.

450

saw it somewhere, in someone's video and

I thought, oh my God, this is genius.

451

You could do a carbonara

without using pasta.

452

You just use cabbage and you still

put in the bacon and the cheese, and

453

it's actually really, really Amazing.

454

Alex: Tasty.

455

Katerina: And you know, and I thought,

oh, you know, this person But you know,

456

once you see it, once you realize it's

a thing, I mean if you Google cabbage

457

Carbonara, there is pages and pages and

pages of Cabo cabbage carbonara So, you

458

know, most things you of discover are.

459

a thing.

460

Is like, you know, where

does a recipe start?

461

Who owns the recipe?

462

Who's the recipe?

463

You know the, well, as

they say, there is as

464

Alex: Mm.

465

Yeah.

466

And there's so many nuances, but I

really like that once you realize,

467

you know, even the story about

the cabbage carbonara, right?

468

So I'm a chef, I love food.

469

I've never heard of that.

470

And I'm like, oh yeah.

471

And actually then when, in terms of the

way you talk about it, about patterns

472

and layers, it's like, well, how many

other dishes can you do like that?

473

That would have pasta.

474

You know, my children have got issues

with eggs and dairy and wheat, which

475

when it first happened I was like, Jesus.

476

Which there's a whole nother conversation

about that, about, wow, what have

477

we done to the basic, you know?

478

And I buy organic local where I can,

and you know, I still use Sainsburys,

479

but I'm choosy about what I buy.

480

And I'm like, why are my kids

reacting to these things?

481

And so there's a need then, you

know, and I think a lot of parents

482

are dealing with allergies and,

and intolerances and reactions now.

483

If we don't know how to cook....

484

those things become a real problem.

485

And they were quite a problem.

486

You know, the ingredients that have

just been taken out of my cupboard

487

are dairy and eggs and wheat.

488

And, you know, for people listening to

this, just think about that for a minute.

489

I was making fish pie with cream and I was

making, you know, pasta with cream sauce.

490

So no more pasta, no more cream

sauces, no more cheese, no more eggs

491

wheat is in fricking everything.

492

pasta, bread, cereals,

it's just everywhere.

493

And we were eating, you know, organic

sourdough bread from Riverford still.

494

Meh..

495

it was because I can cook that, that

wasn't actually that much of a big deal.

496

It just took a little bit of like.

497

Okay, we need to, you know, rejig.

498

And then when you start saying things

like, well, there's cabbage carbonara.

499

And now, okay, I couldn't do the eggs

and the dairy bit in that, but it's that,

500

you know, I started making fish pie with

a tomato sauce instead of a cream sauce.

501

And there are things

that we just don't eat.

502

And gluten-free pasta has come a long

way and we don't eat it very often, but

503

like tonight we're gonna have spaghetti

bolognese with gluten-free pasta.

504

It's the ability to cook that removes

my requirement on food companies.

505

'cause if I go to the food companies

saying, no wheat, no pasta, no dairy.

506

Anyone who's experienced this and

you've probably seen it, it's a

507

horrible mix of replacement vile food

that I wouldn't Well, I was gonna

508

say, I wouldn't give it to my dog.

509

My dog wouldn't eat it.

510

You know, it's like my dog would look at

me like, why are you giving that to me?

511

But it was the, being able to cook

that made that not such a bad crisis.

512

Cause if you take those issues to food

companies , their replacement versions

513

are, I would say, probably worse than

the original thing we're trying to

514

Katerina: Yeah.

515

Well that's the thing, isn't it?

516

That actually, if you think about it

yourself, replacing things as okay,

517

what, you know, what does it do?

518

How does it taste?

519

What does it add or take away?

520

And then, you know, you

don't need a vegan recipe to.

521

Take meat out of a recipe.

522

You know, if you don't want fish in your

pie, you just replace it with something

523

else and you just have to have, you

know, an understanding of what things do.

524

But a lot of this understanding

is actually, common sense.

525

Like I love this quote from Samin

Nosrat, and she says, you know,

526

cooking is all about using your

senses, mostly common sense.

527

Alex: That's brilliant.

528

I love that.

529

Yeah.

530

'cause when you first started the

sentence, I was thinking when I first

531

worked for Raymond Blanc and he's

very passionate and he was really,

532

he was you've gotta use your eyes.

533

And the biggest thing actually that

kind of taught me that I already sort

534

of knew intuitively, but I suppose

he said, you gotta use your ears.

535

How hot does the pan sound?

536

How is the sizzling going?

537

like your ears will tell you a lot

about cooking, but I'd never thought

538

about it before, but I'd never,

never thought about common sense

539

being one of the senses to use.

540

'cause it is, it's

like, well just stop and

541

think for a minute.

542

Katerina: Stop looking at

the recipe, look at the pan.

543

look at what is in front of you,

544

Alex: yeah, yeah, right?

545

Katerina: So maybe it's something

you discovered having to deal

546

with all this restrictions, or

maybe it's something from before.

547

What?

548

What is your favorite thing to eat?

549

Alex: mine, hands down

every time is roast chicken.

550

It's so simple.

551

so in a very British way, although

there's lots of versions of not

552

great roast chicken out there, but

roast chicken, gravy made from the

553

pan juices., You know, a cauliflower

cheese roast, potatoes and roast

554

parsnips, and some form of green veg.

555

Whatever's in season, you know,

because that, that's the other

556

thing I love about roast chicken.

557

You can take it all the

way through the seasons.

558

In the summer I have it with

jacket, potatoes and salad, or put

559

it on the barbecue and with salad.

560

And in the, you know, in the wintertime,

I'm already very excited about this

561

Sunday because the autumn has arrived.

562

but South Wales, autumn is definitely

here, so I'm like, yes, I can have

563

roast chicken and roast potatoes.

564

I think it's 'cause my mum cooked

it and it was always so delicious.

565

And when I worked in restaurants,

I, I ran a pub for a, a couple of

566

years with my first husband and I

just loved cooking Sunday lunch and

567

I cooked it how my mom cooked it.

568

And a lot of chefs, in my opinion, mess

with Sunday lunch and it's like, stop

569

messing with perfection and simplicity.

570

You know, they make it too chefy.

571

It's like when chefs put things in

creme brulee, I'm like, creme brulee

572

just needs to be a creme brulee.

573

It doesn't need anything else.

574

And and so people listening going, but

I love raspberries and my creme brulee.

575

That's fine if you really love

it, but does it really need it?

576

'cause actually just creme brulee as it

is, is like, in my opinion, perfection.

577

And simple, you know, it's

like three ingredients,

578

cream, eggs, sugar, that's it.

579

so there's a memory hook to my mom cooking

again, the smell, the preparation, the

580

anticipation, the crispy chicken skin.

581

But the chicken's still too

hot to eat that whole world.

582

And the, just the movability of it.

583

It can be a different meal every Sunday.

584

You, I can eat roast chicken

every Sunday, but it's, it's

585

a different meal every time.

586

You know, I can put Indian spices on it.

587

I can do all sorts with it.

588

Katerina: Yeah, it's one concept.

589

Alex: and it's a, it's a visceral thing.

590

Yeah, many, so, and you know, and I

would say to expand it a little bit,

591

I'd just say just roast dinners in

the uk, you know, because then you,

592

whatever the meat, it doesn't matter.

593

Lamb, pork, beef, it's

just got so many options.

594

You know, if, like, if I had to,

'cause people used to say, oh,

595

what, what do you love cooking?

596

And it, that's actually

a different answer.

597

What I love cooking.

598

Is whatever's in front of me, like

whatever seasonal as a, there'll

599

be something in front of me.

600

It's there for a reason.

601

Like Lorna, the farmer where we get

her lamb has got lamb again and we

602

haven't had lamb for a couple of

months 'cause she hasn't had any.

603

But if there was one meal, if I could

only ever eat one meal for the rest of

604

my life, it would be a roast dinner.

605

'cause I can make it different

with the same ingredients.

606

Katerina: And what is your,

like go-to emergency meal?

607

Like when you don't really have the

time or the brain space to cook?

608

Alex: Um, so if I've got it in the

freezer, it'll be a bolognese for sure.

609

I think, I dunno why Bolognese

is such a magical, it just

610

seems to be everyone's favorite.

611

And again, my mom had made the bolognese,

we'd have spaghetti bolognese one night.

612

She, or we'd probably have

lasana the day she made it fresh.

613

And then we'd have bolognese

another night because she'd put

614

the bolognese in the freezer.

615

Yeah, so bolognese, if I have it in

the freezer, you know, I, I pretty

616

much always have that in the freezer

or some kind of slow cooked meat,

617

which I would put bolognese in that,

you know, I cook it for hours, you

618

know, a beef casserole or a lamb stew.

619

and actually scrambled egg on

toast, it's one of my favorites.

620

and I cook it with butter and there's

cream in with the eggs and there's a piece

621

of sourdough toast with more butter on it.

622

Um, when I was pregnant with my kids,

this is probably why they're allergic

623

to all these things I lived on...

624

for breakfast, sourdough toast

for loads of butter, scrambled

625

egg with cream and butter in it.

626

And I, and I started putting cheddar

cheese on top 'cause I was just

627

craving protein, uh, you know,

and fat whilst I was pregnant.

628

I'm making links now.

629

I'm like, oh, maybe that's

why I had overdid it a bit

630

on those three food groups.

631

I was pregnant.

632

So they're both like, oh my god, no more.

633

scrambled egg is so simple, like good

scrambled egg is like the most simple the

634

Katerina: my kind of go-to emergency

meal is actually fried eggs.

635

Not scramble.

636

Alex: Interesting.

637

Yeah, and, and just eggs

generally, like they're so quick.

638

I remember the Delia Smith book

that came out, how to Cook an Egg.

639

It was like, genius.

640

One of the tests for

working at the Manoir.

641

When I went to, I had to do a two day

trial to go to the Manoir and we had

642

to cook a meal, anything we wanted.

643

Then eat it with the head chef.

644

And we had to figure out what

worked in that meal and what didn't.

645

So like I did lamb and ratatouille and I

was like, I've overcooked the lamb a bit.

646

So they weren't testing my cooking skills.

647

They were testing.

648

Did I know, you know, that actually

the lamb was perfectly cooked

649

or overcooked or whatever, and

seasoned and all the rest of it.

650

And the other test was make me an omelet.

651

That was Raymond Blanc's test for chefs

coming in the kitchen, cook me an omelet.

652

it's such a simple thing, and people

are petrified of cooking eggs.

653

Katerina: Really interesting about,

you know, okay, you cook a meal

654

and then you have to figure out

what could have been done better.

655

Because this is also something that I

see with a lot of people when something

656

doesn't quite work out, were hoping

or as the recipe said, you kind of

657

say, oh gosh, I'm a terrible cook.

658

And that's not, that's

not what it is about.

659

it's about, okay, this

could have been better.

660

Well, what is it that I would

change and, and become aware of it?

661

it's a, Yeah.

662

you know that lamb is overcooked, so

then you have a mental note that next

663

time or you know, the ratatouille

is to acidic or, whatever it is.

664

So I really, you know, encourage

people to, Well, that's again,

665

you know, use your senses, to be

aware of when you like something,

666

what is it exactly that you like?

667

And when you don't like something,

again, you know, what is it, what you

668

don't like, because that is what builds

up all these references in your head

669

that you can then use when you, when you

stand in front of the fridge and think

670

of, what the heck am I cooking tonight?

671

That is when these references

will give you your ideas.

672

That's, that's how you.

673

Feed your cooking intuition.

674

Alex: Hmm.

675

Yeah.

676

And, and also I think it, it speaks to,

you've touched upon a deeper journey that

677

people can go on with food, which is.

678

We internalize and shame ourselves

and we go, I am bad or I am wrong.

679

We cook something and we mess it up.

680

We say that I'm bad, rather

than, oh, I overcooked something.

681

It's a big distinction, you know, in

coaching and psychotherapy and all the

682

rest of it, and bringing up children.

683

I'm more aware of it than ever

of, oh, I did a thing, not

684

I am that thing, you know?

685

Oh, I cooked, I, I cooked

something and it wasn't great.

686

Not, I am not great.

687

what people don't realize.

688

And if, you know, anyone's listening

to this thinking about like, I can't

689

people feel shame, like a failure.

690

They don't wanna talk about it.

691

You know, especially with

food, it's the same with money.

692

It's the same actually in any area of

coaching and teaching and, you know, le

693

like leading people to, to do something.

694

People have so much shame

and fear around failure.

695

And if you go on a

journey to learn to cook.

696

It will take you on such a deep

soul search if you want it to.

697

You don't have to, you can just

learn to cook and it's fine.

698

Like, I'm not saying like, oh, it's, you

know, gonna transform your life and it

699

could transform your life if you let it.

700

Because if you actually can forgive

yourself when you know, overcook something

701

or you can learn from it, or you can go,

oh, I cook this meal and next time I'm

702

gonna put a bit more salt, or I'm not

gonna leave it under the grill for so

703

long, you've just learned a mechanism

for assessing what you did, deciding

704

how to do it better next time, and

then going back and doing it again.

705

And then that can be

applied to any area of life.

706

So people think they're just learning

to cook, but like a, it's just a world

707

connection, freedom, of how we look

at ourselves and then everything else.

708

'cause actually, once we have confidence

to cook and the fear and the shame's gone,

709

we probably invite people for dinner.

710

We'll give, we'll give a

go cooking for our friends.

711

And then when we do that, they

start to go, oh, how do you do that?

712

I can't cook.

713

I hate cooking.

714

And then they learn to cook and

like I could go the ripple effect.

715

It changes the world and we think

we're just learning to cook.

716

And it's like, hmm.

717

It is just learning to cook

and it's everything and

718

nothing all at the same time.

719

It's just learning to

cook, but actually...

720

change the world.

721

Katerina: I'm, with you

all the way on that one.

722

And for me, cooking is such a.

723

a safe place to practice getting out of

your comfort zone and and daring to, to

724

do something and try something without

being entirely sure of the outcome.

725

Because, are, we are so

afraid of Messing it up.

726

But actually cooking is very forgiving.

727

You know, it may not turn out

perfectly, but it is very, very

728

difficult to make a meal inedible.

729

So you don't need to be afraid to try,

you know, just change one little thing.

730

That's, that's what, I teach.

731

You know, start where you are.

732

Just change, that meal that you

know, or even that takeaway that

733

you know, add some herbs, you a bit

of lemon juice, see what happens.

734

be aware of what it does and then,

next time you change another thing,

735

and this is how.

736

you start figuring it out

really, by trying something

737

and, putting your awareness onto

what, that experiment did do.

738

Alex: Mm.

739

Yeah.

740

And it's, there's a whole world

there of being present, you know?

741

'cause actually most cooking that

I mess up is 'cause I wasn't paying

742

attention or I didn't set a timer.

743

I always, people are like,

why are you setting a timer?

744

You're a chef.

745

I'm like, 'cause I'm a human and I know

that in 10 minutes I might not be present

746

to the fact that it's 10 minutes and I

need to check the rice or turn the rice

747

off, or check the oven or whatever.

748

it's massive.

749

And I like what you said about just

Just change one thing, like just

750

take, just take the takeaway and add

something or just start with eggs.

751

Like depending on where people

are that are listening to this.

752

If you literally have never,

ever cooked, of which the first

753

thing to says you're not alone.

754

Katerina: the funny thing though that

I've noticed, you know, because I've

755

tried that out of curiosity, what,

what will spit out So, okay, so you

756

say, I've got these three ingredients.

757

It will spit out a list of ideas.

758

Then you put in different ingredients.

759

And it spits out another list of

ideas and you know, another three

760

ingredients, another list of ideas.

761

But if you look at these ideas,

it'll tell you, well, you can do

762

a stir fry with these ingredients.

763

You can do a stew with these ingredients.

764

You can make a soup

with these ingredients.

765

You can do stir fried rice

with these ingredients.

766

So actually.

767

It's all about the patterns.

768

And the patterns are always the same.

769

Of course, they're always the

same because, you know, this

770

is what, what meals are like.

771

You know, they're either a soup or a roast

or a stir fry or you know, a casserole.

772

Alex: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah,

773

yeah.

774

Katerina: So.

775

I mean, you, you shared a lot

of tips already, but you know,

776

if you had a couple of tips to

share of, what is what you do that.

777

makes life in the kitchen easy for you?

778

What would be your top two or three tips?

779

Alex: good question.

780

The first one is planning out

the like planning out the week.

781

And sometimes I, I don't do this and

then I find I'm getting a bit bored.

782

And also my they, I cook a meal

and they latch onto it, and then

783

they wanna have that every night.

784

Like their favorite at the moment is

a chicken korma recipe from the, um.

785

Hairy bikers, although we have a

joke in our house about recipe books.

786

'cause my husband will go,

you never follow the recipe.

787

You've got shelves full of cookbooks

and you never follow the damn recipe.

788

I'm like, yeah, well I just,

I've got the idea from it, right.

789

And then, you know, making it Um, so

we do tend to get in a bit of a like,

790

oh, I'm cooking this chicken coma.

791

I've cooked this chicken coma for 10

weeks in a row now and I'm bored to

792

tears of Um, The loose meal plan, so

I know what to You can't cook if you

793

haven't got ingredients in the house.

794

So I think, you know, wherever anyone's

at, whether they're already a really

795

great cook or there's just starting

out, or they want new inspiration,

796

actually spending a little bit of time.

797

And it's completely

counterintuitive, right?

798

So I'm a doer It takes a lot to

get me to sit down and just get

799

my recipe books out or Google,

you know, autumnal recipe ideas.

800

'cause actually understanding what's in

season when you go in the supermarket,

801

there's no clue as to what's in season.

802

Generally it's all looks the same, all

fricking year round, so you're not gonna

803

get inspiration from the supermarket.

804

supermarket I love ordering from

Riverford and you know, like local farmers

805

'cause then I know what's in season.

806

Um.

807

So having some kind of a plan

and ingredients in the kitchen

808

is a good start, but you

can't cook if you haven't done

809

Another thing that I do is I deal

with what's going on in the day.

810

So like Monday is my busiest day.

811

I coach all day.

812

I go and pick up the kids

from school at three o'clock.

813

We eat at five, which is, you know,

to do with the kids' schedule.

814

I used to eat Um, we eat at five and then

I'm coaching again at seven till nine.

815

I have zero time technically, but also I

make cooking the with I make the activity

816

cooking if that's what needs to be done,

and I invite the kids into the kitchen.

817

And if they don't, I don't make them

come to the I say, I'm If you don't

818

wanna cook, that's not, you know, if

you wanna play with the big people, the

819

big people are in the kitchen cooking.

820

If you don't wanna play the big

people's games, you're gonna have

821

to, you know, do dealing with

what I've got on is really useful.

822

So I don't beat myself up if, if

I've got a really busy day, I deal

823

with that and I plaque accordingly.

824

On the days when I've got more time.

825

I think it's about changing

our view of what cooking is.

826

And you, you, you know, we started

talking about this at the I think

827

it's Michael Pollan that says:

828

Evening isn't what happens after dinner.

829

Dinner is the evening.

830

When we change that from like,

we've gotta get cooking and

831

food out the way so we can...

832

so you can what?

833

Watch tV?

834

when we get that?

835

That is the evening or

the afternoon activity.

836

Depending on what time you eat dinner.

837

We can be that.

838

This is the hobby, this is the pleasure,

this is the passion, this is the learning.

839

This is the inviting friends over having

a cook club and saying, well, I'll cook

840

dinner on a Monday You know, you can

I come to yours on a Tuesday night and

841

understanding that that is the evening.

842

It's not the thing to get out of the way.

843

So, and you know, most

people then do what?

844

Go and watch telly.

845

And if you're out being busy, it's

like you're still getting dinner out

846

of the way, like a thing that has to

be done rather than it being the thing.

847

And it took, and it took me, you know,

I'm a chef who used to work 18 there, that

848

societally we are so programmed without

even realizing it have this thing that

849

it's a thing to do to get out the way

rather than, I think in Britain, I think

850

probably mainland know, it becau it is

more of, that's the thing you do for It

851

is not the thing to get out the way, so

you can do the thing, but the thing is

852

actually like watching telly or scrolling

on it's, it's not so much the tips,

853

it's the changing the mindset about what

cooking is and understanding that cooking.

854

If you've got children or you've

got a partner, cook with your

855

partner, be in the kitchen together.

856

Owen can't stand cooking, my He does

the washing up and he's around while

857

I'm You know, so it's not a burden

to me 'cause I'm not doing all of it.

858

This morning we had a delivery.

859

We put it away together while

the kids were having breakfast.

860

I will cook, he'll start washing up.

861

It's like it, it becomes the interaction.

862

The boys will empty the dishwasher.

863

It's hilarious watching and

five-year-old wa empty dishwasher.

864

When our cupboards are high up, take

something to allow them to climb on

865

chairs and stand on worktops to do it.

866

It's the funnest thing I've ever

So that is the act, the, the

867

emptying, the dishwasher is the

connecting with my children.

868

I don't get it out the way so I can

connect with my So it's shifting the

869

Katerina: I really love that reframe.

870

Yeah, exactly.

871

The cooking is the thing, So or

the, the sharing food is the thing,

872

and cooking is, is part of that.

873

Alex: And then all of a

sudden there's so much time.

874

When the cooking becomes the thing and

you've got all there's no rush anymore.

875

You're not trying to get it out the cause

it is the thing, including after the meal,

876

it's like, what's for breakfast tomorrow?

877

Do I need to soak some oats?

878

Do I need to make a pancake mix?

879

What's for dinner tomorrow night?

880

Oh, it's a busy day.

881

I'll take the food outta the freezer

so that it's ready so that then on

882

the day that it should be a rush.

883

It's not a rush.

884

'cause I thought about it But

being present to to it as

885

we eat three meals a is big!

886

Katerina: No way around that.

887

Alex: Yeah, it's big and it's everything

and it's a journey into meditation,

888

being with it, it'll change, you know,

if people are listening to this, I'm

889

saying, cook, it's gonna change your life.

890

If you let it!

891

Katerina: Amazing.

892

That's a really, really wonderful

point to, to bring this to a close.

893

Alex: Hmm.

894

Katerina: Thank you so much for your.

895

Thoughts and inspiration and that was,

896

Alex: pleasure.

897

Katerina: That was so fascinating.

898

Thank you very much.

899

Alex.

900

Alex: Thank you.

901

so much.

902

much