In Episode 4, Part 2 of 3 of Finding Your Balance: A Mental Health Podcast presented by Peace River Center and Southeastern University, Kirk and Tiffani discuss the fight, flight, and freeze reaction our bodies naturally use to protect us from traumatic events. Tune in to learn more!

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Thank you for joining us today for part two of our three -part series on trauma.

You're right. You highlighted some things, Tiffani, that a lot of people who've

experienced traumatic events or events go through, and those are the anniversaries.

Those are the memories of the loss as a result of the trauma event.

For me, what happened in my life, I witnessed my friend get killed in a bicycle

accident. So a lot of things around bicycle and me, you know,

it's a little bit sensitive. But the oddest thing, a memory from that morning wasn't

even part of the event. The memory from that morning got anchored to that event and

it was the smell of toast and every time I had the smell of toast my memory went

back to that moment and I'd break out in sweats,

I'd be really nervous, I'd be hyper -vigilant, watching very carefully on roads and

be extra sensitive about making sure bike helmets were worn and things like this and

really getting on some some of my family members who were like you're you're a

little over over the top of the Bicycle helmet and it's like hey, I don't care

you know, but it was it was as a result of of having witnessed all of that and

The anniversary dates come around and it all comes back, the loss of, oh,

what would my friend be like now? I'm graduating college, he would have been a year

or two behind me, but what would he been like? What would his family been like?

And so, yeah, people, having worked through that,

through talking with therapists and counselors,

The the experience is the experience unless we have time machines and we have yet

to invent one to go back in time and change That it is part of us and will

always be a part of us. It's how do we change the emotional impact?

So it doesn't debilitate us and helps us to grow And and you know being being

comfortable to even talk about it, you know, and share with others is how we grow,

you know, because as we're talking about it, those memories are there. That vision

is there, at least in my case, it's very vivid.

And then being able to talk with you about it and to see,

or to, I can't see you, but if you're out there listening, you can start to

process your own emotions with whatever event you may or may not have gone through

and put it into some perspective. Because lots of times when those feelings come up,

it's that unsafe feeling and you're on guard a little bit more,

but realizing, "Okay, I am in a safe place, it's okay. I'm in a classroom,

I'm okay, nothing's really gonna hurt me right here and right now. So it's just,

you know, being more mindful of what you're going through and where that is coming

from. So I am much better with toast now, just so you know. Well, what I'm hearing

you say and like what I practice myself sometimes because, I mean, this is, you

know, our life experiences, you know, they develop who we are and our personalities

and our, you know, our take on the world. When you walk into a room, do you

expect someone to like you or do you expect them to, you know, not like you? And

so I know for me, sometimes if I'm getting overwhelmed or if I'm feeling things

start to creep up, I take a breath and I try to reframe what's going on in my

mind, because our feelings can be deceptive sometimes. Our thoughts can be deceptives.

In counseling, they teach you what's called the cognitive triangle, right? And so

your feelings influence your thoughts and your thoughts influence your actions. And

then it's just this revolving cycle of the actions are reinforcing your feelings and

then just over and over and over. And if you know that these feelings are not

serving you well, and you know they're detrimental Okay, we need to break the cycle.

We need to say no no no like I know that I'm feeling this way But let me hold

up a mirror and what's really going on and one of the things that we do In

sessions with little kids because you know as a children's therapist, we have to

have art supplies, right? That's right. We have to have crayons, lots of glitter We

We do what's called the feelings iceberg and so we'll get a piece of paper and

we'll give a crayons markers if we're feeling daring and you know they draw an

iceberg you know with like a waterline and what I'll say is okay you know write to

me all you know the thoughts and you know all of the actions that are disruptive

for you and so they'll write all those things on you know the iceberg And then we

take a minute and we say, you know, with icebergs, you just see a little bit above

the water, you know, the majority of the iceberg is underneath. And so you're having

these thoughts and you're having these behaviors, but what's really going on is

usually under the surface. And it's not at all what we think it is. And so a lot

of times you'll see this defiant behavior or you'll see, you know, these big

behaviors and underneath, if we're being honest, what's really going on, feeling

insecure, feeling disappointed, feeling rejected, feeling fear of abandonment.

And I think about how many times have I made conclusions about other people's

actions and behaviors, but those conclusions were rooted in my own fear, or they

were rooted in my feeling like, "You did this because you're going to leave because

everybody leaves because my dad died, right? And so what I think about, wait a

minute, like that person doesn't even know my dad, right? They don't even know my

trauma history. And it really helped me understand how much of my thought processes

were rooted in my trauma experience, but not in actual,

like, reality. It was my reality, but not the reality of the person doing the

behavior, and it's not fair of me to hold them to that. And so I really had to

create some boundaries in my mind of like, no, no, no, this is your trauma

speaking, so let's take a minute. And so maybe I think would be helpful for our

listeners and for our viewers when we're feeling that because I know I'm not alone.

I know I'm not the only one that's felt I know I'm not the only one all right

that has had these big reactions when their trauma buttons are pushed How would you

tell them to or how would you tell us to walk through breaking that cycle of

negative thinking?

So one of the first things that when we do some some trauma work,

especially in right after it It's disaster. We go into the fields and people are

feeling disoriented, can't focus, can't remember things. And in some cases,

can't even remember their name. And they start to feel, okay, this is not normal.

Okay, that, no, it is normal for, it's a normal reaction to abnormal situations.

- Oh, say that again, that's so good. - Yeah, yeah, it's a normal reaction to

abnormal situations. - Wow. - And so, that does tend to ease a lot of folks is

like, okay, I'm not going crazy. This is, okay, I'm supposed to be experiencing.

And then we look at a few areas. How is it impacting you cognitively? Your thought

process, your forgetfulness, your inability to communicate,

things like that, that whole thought process is slow and you're not thinking clearly

that's okay.

It happens in the immediate and it happens when it comes up again later on because

it's, again, as you said, our bodies are wonderful mechanisms. Our brain works to

keep us safe and protect us from the world. So it'll do things.

So when it starts to feel threatened again, those walls come back up and the

cognitive impact that can't remember, can't do certain things.

- Well, and I've seen that also even like, when you're having a conversation with

someone and it's too much for them, right? And then they kind of just shut down.

And if you're not trauma -informed, if you don't understand what's happening, that can

be super annoying, right? When you're trying to have a conversation with someone,

it's like, ah, I can't even talk to you. Like, "Why won't you finish your

conversation?" Or even some people, they need to step away and they need to take a

break because their thoughts need to catch up with their heart and they need a

minute. And sometimes, you see it in the movies, people following you around in the

room, like, "No, finish this conversation. "We have to finish this right now." People

need to be able to take what they need to process and maybe they need a minute,

right? - Right, 'cause it can be overwhelming, 'cause Again, you're getting flooded

with emotions and memories of what occurred, and you enter the fight -flight -or

-freeze response, you know? And even in those situations where, "Well,

why am I getting stressed out? This is the mechanism within our bodies that has

been there to protect us, and that's why we still exist because of the fight -flight

-or -freeze. But now it's gone a little out of whack because you're there. Your body

doesn't know the difference between the real there and the emotional memory.

So it triggers it all to come back. And so, yeah, so you see it cognitively,

you see it emotionally where the emotions seem inconsistent with what's going on at

that moment in

Yeah, following somebody around, because they're not paying attention to me all of a

sudden. You're walking away, they're overloaded, they can't handle it. When talking

about the fight -flight -or -freeze, I have this vivid memory of the first time, my

husband, when he went away one time for business, I was home alone, and Kirk,

I promise I'm a very independent person, I pump my own gas, I'm very capable,

right? I'm not afraid to be alone, And I remember vividly, I'm in bed,

you know, I checked all the doors, the alarm's on, like, I am safe, I am okay.

And I'm almost positive, like, the ice maker went on. And I know I'm in the house

alone, right? I don't even have a cat, like, I'm alone. And every single hair on

my arm went straight up. And I was like, 99 % sure it was the ice maker,

1 % Like maybe I do have a cat like but I knew I was fine. Yeah,

but my body when you say fight flight or freeze It was 100 % freeze and then you

have this I think hypervigilant You said that kicks in where it's like now. I'm

hyper-aware of every sound. I'm hyper-aware of every noise I'm hyper-aware of every

mistake and so At the time the home that we were in you know the the and the bed

went up against windows and the windows were facing the street. And so every car

that drove by, there must have been a pothole outside my door or outside my window

because every car that drove by, I could hear it and it's like another wave of

like, oh my gosh, there's a person. And I think the thing with hypervigilance,

with fight, flight, or freeze, it's like a process. You can't rush it. It's gonna

take the time that it's gonna take and I remember thinking like you're so silly

It's the ice maker like you know get you know get out of this like you need to

go to bed And I'm just watching the clock tick by thinking oh my gosh I've got to

get some sleep, but you can't rush it and I think so many times for our patients

and our friends who have gone through a trauma You know we get so frustrated with

ourselves like why can't I just Let's get over this. Right. Well, and again,

everything you're describing is that fight, flight, or freeze response in us,

the heightened sense, and sense awareness is part of that, that process.

In any high stress situations, our perceptions are a little altered because you'll

have some people that victims of a crime, let's say a hold up in a convenience

store, will describe, you ask that witness to describe the size of the firearm the

person may have had. And they give you this huge, huge description of this ginormous

gun that's the size of a bazooka. Hold on, that doesn't make sense. And then you

actually find out it's like a small little two -shooter, kind of a little gun. But

that perception can be a little bit out of whack in those high stress moments. But

what it does is it protects us. Or it protects us now,

protects us way back when we were walking through the woods and living life as

nomads. And So, that heightened perception is there, and you're taking all that

information in, and just, it's to protect yourself. - You know, I've also seen that

with survivors of sexual assault, or survivors of domestic violence, where, you know,

you have the police reporter, and they have to give all of these details, and

they're not quite right, and it would be very easy to say, well, I knew they

weren't telling the truth. Well, I knew this didn't really happen. But what can

happen with trauma is this disorientation of time and this disorientation with the

facts because you're in it and you might be numb and just your reality is altered

because like you said, that's your body, that's your brain trying to protect you,

trying to insulate you, I think, sometimes from the trauma. And so understanding

trauma means and then everyone goes through it a little bit different? - Absolutely,

everybody goes through it a little bit different, 'cause you might have somebody

who's very hyperverbal and can describe every single little detail. Or the other end

of the spectrum is, they can't give you any information. And in an investigative

process, that's frustrating because, okay, did this happen, did it not happen? This

person doesn't give me a lot of details, but then later on, this story seems to

have changed, but what's happening is the mind is starting to relax and those

details are coming forward. And so people are able to remember more about what

occurred. "Oh, now I remember this, okay, are they making it up?" Not really. This

is how the brain is working in lots of cases. And you look for those consistencies

and does over time and does it, does it have a bounce back effect too?

I mean, again, anniversaries, you know, going to trial for sexual assault victims,

you know, those are very heightened moments where fight, fight, or freeze is kicking

in and the trauma experience is taking over.

And again, therapy is there to help control some of that and be aware that it's

taking control over your your emotional experience your behaviors and

In your experiences, so getting that You've had the experience now.

How do we kind of soften the blow so you can talk about it? I mean you can talk

about your dad's passing now and it's still there's still some tinge of sorrow and

loss in that process. Same with my friend in that accident, but it's still there.

It's still part of who we are. It's part of our life story. But it's not taking

control of our lives, our ability to live, love, laugh, and learn. - It affects you

because, I mean, they were a part of your world, right? Like they were important to

you. And I think that it would count who they were to you if it didn't affect you

at all. Absolutely. Now, I know that we talked about, you know, fight, fight or

freeze. We talked about freeze because, you know, the ice maker. We talked about

flight in a way because I think sometimes that's the avoidant behavior of, you know,

I'm running away from this issue because I can't, I can't deal with it just quite

yet. Right. But then you have the fight and I vividly can picture this whenever you

have people go through something very stressful, and then it's almost like you have

this, I'm just trying to help you, I'm here to serve, and instead of getting,

oh thank you so much, you get someone who is very combative sometimes, or maybe

very argumentative, or looking to pick a fight, and it would be really easy as a

supportive friend, or as a stranger, or as a clinician provider to say, "What is

going on? Like, I am here to help you. I'm trying to be nice. Like, why are you

coming at me?" And taking that response personally, when we have to realize this is

not about you, right? This is someone trying to make sense of their trauma, and

this is how they are processing it, and it's not personal. It's their trauma

reaction. And So when I think of like the fight and fight, fight or freeze, I

really think of where, you know, someone is, you know, being argumentative or someone

is just, you know, not the best version of themselves, right? Right. Little verbal

aggression sometimes, sometimes some physical aggression. And that happens sometimes,

you know, in my world because we work with families who, their children are

struggling And it can be incredibly overwhelming to want to help your child and to

not know how or to want to help your child and to fight for your kid to get the

support that they need and to feel like you're getting obstacle after obstacle after

obstacle, you know, red tape after red tape and that can be incredibly frustrating.

- Right. - And I think sometimes, you know, we've talked about trauma, you know, the

different types of events. There's also, you know, this trauma that happens whenever

it's someone you love who is going through it, right? So I think a lot of times,

you know, unfortunately many of the cases that I work with deal with child abuse

and neglect. And so as a parent, when your child has experienced something truly

terrible, there's this sense of not only is this your child's trauma, your child's

lived experience, but it's also your trauma. - Right. - Right, people who experience

mental illness, their families also go through this as well. And so there's this

sense of, okay, it didn't happen to me exactly. Am I allowed to have a response?

Am I allowed to be struggling with this? And if I am, like,

can I even tell anyone because how dare I take any of the help away from the

person who's really going through it, right? Right, right. That's hard. Well, in that

sense of, I wasn't there to protect them, you know, it's an interesting thing. I've

done some trauma work with law enforcement and that's a family. They're close to it,

especially the smaller squads and platoons, you know, and going through an officer

-involved shooting where a fellow officer has gotten shot.

And so they come back, we do a process with them to start the recovery process,

and usually there'll be somebody that was on vacation or something, "Well, I

shouldn't have taken that vacation. I wasn't there for them." It's like, they're

angry about that, and it comes out in anger towards everybody else. And it's like,

Time out. You're allowed to have vacations. You're allowed to do other things and

it's okay to be fearful and hurt and and being

Disappointed I guess for not being there. I mean those are all real emotions that

somebody's gonna go through When they've got somebody else out that they're close to

getting hurt. They couldn't control it You know, that's another big thing. With

trauma, it's unpredictable. It's sudden. It's out of our control.

So that whole loss of control really heightens emotions for the person involved and

those around them because you're right. It does encompass those around them, the

family, the friends and co -workers, all of that is all around how they respond and

react and recover because that's it's another interesting thing.

Thank you for joining us. If you enjoyed the show, please hit the like and

subscribe button. If you or somebody else is struggling with a traumatic issue,

please in Central Florida give us a call at 863 -519 -3744 or on a national level

you can dial 988.