Wait, you’re getting paid to be here?!

Isaias Hernandez (he/they) is an educator and creative from Los Angeles. He’s more commonly known by his moniker, Queer Brown Vegan: the independent media platform he started to bring intersectional environmental education to all. They’ve been featured in Vogue, New York Times, The Washington Post, The Guardian, and Yale Climate Communications. His social media advocacy earned him recognition as a top climate creator by Harvard C-CHANGE.

Being overworked and underpaid is a reality in many activist spaces. In the fourth episode of season 3, Confessions of a Climate Activist, Clover chats with Isaias Hernandez about unpaid labour in activism and the difficulties of building his career whilst receiving scrutiny for his own choices in climate spaces. Stick around to hear Isaias spill their climate confession.

“I was invited to do a speaking engagement and I asked, ‘how much are you paying?’ — I was gaslighted and told that it should be an honor and privilege that I talk in this space because they don’t usually give out opportunities like that.” - Isaias Hernandez

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Website: https://queerbrownvegan.com/

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Clover Hogan:

Hi my name’s Clover and you’re listening to the Force of Nature podcast. This season, we’re diving into “Confessions of a Climate Activist”.

What comes to mind when you picture an activist? Is it a person glued to the road? Someone with a reusable coffee cup? Maybe, a teenager holding a microphone?

Whatever it is, I want you to let it go — because I’m about to invite you behind the scenes. You’re going to hear from activists on the stuff that doesn’t get talked about. Burnout; getting cancelled; the ethical compromises of making money; imposter syndrome, and even what it’s like to alienate friends and family.

See this as your how-to guide when understanding and navigating the nuances of activism and barriers to action in the climate space. Over the season, we hope to find some answers: namely, what activism can look like when it's more open, honest and human. Make sure to stick around to the end of each episode when our guests spill their climate confessions.

After all, we don't need a hundred perfect activists - but millions of imperfect ones.

Clover Hogan:

Last week on *Confessions of a Climate Activist,* we explored what it means to be a ‘youth activist’: from being branded naïve, to navigating imposter syndrome. We also discussed the short expiration date on youth activism, and the struggles to turn this work into long-term, financially sustainable careers. Today, we’re diving in with my friend Isaias Hernandez, who you may know on social media as Queer Brown Vegan. Isaias is an environmental educator — but more recently, he’s spoken publicly about coming under fire for the ways he funds his work. There’s a growing conversation about unpaid labour in activism; and some of the compromises that come with activists trying to eke out a living. It has raised a lot of questions: should activists be paid for their work? If yes, what are ‘acceptable’ ways to make money as an activist? Is it ok for us to accept brand sponsorships? Is it anyone’s business how activists fund themselves, if they’re doing important work? And who gets left behind when we fail to provide funding?

Before we dive in, I’d love to hear if anyone from our community grapples with these same questions…

Community member 1:

My name is Lucy and I'm a 22 year old French activist and I do see a few barriers when it comes to getting into activism. And I think the main and first one would be that you don't know where to begin because this is such a big and complex problem, so you don't really know what exists already, so you kind of have to research by yourself and kind of get into a community that already exists. I think it's kind of hard to find that you belong somewhere and that you can actually find somewhere you can be useful because sometimes you don't even think that you... have the skills for it or that your voice matters.

Community member 2:

I want to do so much more in this activist space but so much of the labour is unpaid and it prevents people who are having to choose between making money and being an activist from actually getting involved in the movement more, especially because you have to do unpaid labour in order to be recognised as a valid activist.

Community member 3:

My name is Selyo and I live in a country named Mozambique in Africa. I study forest engineering. university here in my country and we learn all these amazing stuff about conservation, the nature, about protecting the trees, about climate crisis and I try to bring awareness to the people that are around me, to my friends, to my family, to my colleagues but I feel like I'm not doing my best because I feel like an outcast sometimes because I'm talking about things we don't see it on the newspaper, we don't see it on the TV and we don't see it on the social media of little about it. So I feel like I'm failing my teachers, I feel like I'm failing myself, and I feel like I'm failing nature.

Clover Hogan:

In the making of this show, so many young people have spoken to this feeling of imposter syndrome. And something that really stands about Lucy’s reflection is how this widespread feeling can justify — or even be *exploited* for — unpaid labour. When we polled our Force of Nature community, 92% stated that unpaid labour is a barrier to activism, and prevents them from being able to get more involved. Activism becomes something they can do on weekends, but not something they can work on long-term. And even if you’re fortunate enough to secure a job in the non-profit sector, it’s not like you’re escaping your financial worries. My first jobs were minimum wage. At Force of Nature, we don’t believe this work should be undervalued — so we’ve worked really hard to offer competitive wages… still, there have been very few moments within my own career where I haven’t had that back-of-mind anxiety about whether I’ll be able to pay my bills. And I say that with all the privilege of having financial safety nets. How about for the young people supporting their families? Or who are sole earners in their households? These are the realities so many young people have to contend with when deliberating how to translate their activism into long-term work.

I want to jump into this with Isaias, as someone who has built a career for himself — but also as someone who has received scrutiny for his own choices. I’ll let him introduce himself.

Isaias Hernandez:

Hi everyone, my name is Isaiah Hernandez. I'm an environmental educator and the content creator of Queer Brown Vegan.

Clover Hogan:

Cool, so today we're going to be talking about some of the challenges within activism of unpaid labour and potentially some of the compromises that can sometimes lead to. But I think as a starting point, it would be really useful to kind of... hear a little bit more from your own personal experience, Isaias. So I'd love if you wouldn't mind sharing, you know, what your experience was like, maybe in the early days of your activism, trying to kind of carve out a career for yourself and make ends meet in doing the really important work that you got up to.

Isaias Hernandez:

Yeah, absolutely. I think during college, when I got very more politically involved in grassroots spaces, I often felt like it was like in hierarchy in order to be able to showcase the more work that you were doing. And in my early days, I remember I never centered myself to speak or to be at the front lines in terms of being the first one to speak. I was someone that's always in the back because I said, I have privilege in my own way, therefore I did not deserve to be in the spotlight. And I remember I was working three jobs in college and I remember being told that I wasn't doing enough. And there was a time when I got invited to do this speaking engagement and I said, oh erm, how much are you paying? Just because I wanna know if I can, I should cancel my job for an hour and didn't go in late. And I was gaslighted and told that. it's an honor, it should be an honor and privilege that I talk in this space because, you know, they don't really give out opportunities like that. And I was like maybe 19 or 20 at the time and I ended up not doing it because I was like, I need to work and pay my rent or else I'll get like displaced. So I just was like, well, I'm not, I can't do it. And that was kind of like my introduction of starting to hear from other people of like, are you, how do you get paid for this? And you realize that more and more young people were like, wait, you can get paid. And then everyone's like, I've been doing this for free. And I'm like, I've been doing this for free. And I'm not giving, I don't know who to send my invoice to.

Clover Hogan:

Yeah, oh gosh. I've had some weird experiences where I've showed up at events and, you know, we've been chatting and, you know, some of the other panelists and like speakers and someone's like, yeah, so how much were you paid for this engagement? I was like, hold up, you're getting paid to be here? Like, you know, and like vice versa and all the different like lines of privilege that kind of like breaks down along as well. Like oftentimes my friends who are like black or brown saying like, oh, we like, we're not even offered or like invited to ask for an honorarium when that wasn't the case with like white activists as well. So there's all of this weird kind of stuff that happens within activism. I mean, following that initial experience like did that did you observe that as quite a trend when invited to speak things or you know participate in activist spaces?

Isaias Hernandez:

Yeah well it's funny because I think years later when I graduated college and I started to create this account queer brown vegan when I was invited to speaking events the honor honorarium rates were around 100 USD and 250 USD and I started to kind of question like you know it is a privilege that I was able You know, I was taught in the academic institution is the reason that you get a degree is that you're seen as more quote-unquote valuable and you can scale your rates more above. And I started to really just always ask like, is there an honorarium? Because I didn't know how to phrase it that way of like, is this a paid or non-paid opportunity? I just said, is there a speaking honorarium available? And the more and more I realized that I was charging very low rates. So more and more people were saying, why are you charging so low? You're letting them exploit you. And so I then had to understand that even if they pay you 100 USD, that's really inequitable for an hour of your time from the years of experience that you've done in activism and movement building and just organizing experience.

Clover Hogan:

Yeah, and I guess there's quite a spectrum here, isn't there? Because On the one end, I might be invited to speak at an engagement run by a nonprofit or hosted by a fellow activist or whatever. And there, it is just like the norm that you're not going to get paid. You are just contributing your time, whatever. It starts to get a little more into the territory of exploitation when you might be invited to a ticketed event, for example, who are actively profiting off the speakers who are contributing. or it's like sponsored by a big company and there's clearly a budget, but there's also this implicit expectation that an activist can just contribute their time and then be rewarded by the like exposure or whatever.

Isaias Hernandez:

And it's like, well, you know, I can't pay myself or buy food with exposure, but you know, appreciate the sentiment. So I guess there are these different kind of degrees of like how nefarious it is because I think when you're in it. it's so easy to just accept it as like, oh, this is just the norm. Like, and even this degree of like, well, I've always done it for free. So like other people should expect to do it for free as well. And then there's the pointy end of it, which is like, no, this is like absolute just like exploitation and you wouldn't expect anyone in any other industry to kind of like contribute their expertise for free. Um, what was it like when you started actually pushing back in those instances and kind of challenging and like understanding your worth as an this. I think I had to be very careful in the ways I navigated those conversations because I think I learned from certain conversations that made me on the do not invite list for just questioning them. But in other spaces, I kind of had to very eloquently battle it in a very silent way via email. But I also say like the privilege I have today is that because I got signed by Speakers Bureau like that's really opened a lot of opportunities for me that I wouldn't be in those spaces without them specifically. But I think in my end, like, it's always weird to say the fact that when black and brown people of color speak up, we're seen as rude, disruptive, controversial. But when a white person speaks up, they're seen as courageous, strong, and not always, but in certain cases, they say that. And you're like, But that's what I just said and you said I was being aggressive to you. So there's a lot of, I think, racial biases and microaggressions that are put on us. And so I've had to recognize that you have to choose your wins and choose your battles because I realized like I'm here for the long term and I cannot have certain people that are predominantly white people that will then share that amongst other networks that I was quote unquote difficult to work with.

Clover Hogan:

Yeah, that's super interesting, that kind of like nuance of even how you're perceived when you advocate for yourself. But I think this also speaks to just like a wider implicit expectation that like activism goes unpaid. And you don't get paid within the nonprofit space or you get paid really poorly because you're doing it for the cause, you're doing it for something that's like bigger than yourself. What have you observed more broadly within the spaces within climate spaces that you think kind of perpetuates these standards of like unpaid labor?

Isaias Hernandez:

Yeah, I mean, I think within young people, it's the ideation of a lot of youth organizations and collectives sometimes that really forget about the importance of intergenerational mentorship, which means having to talk about capital. Like those are very uncomfortable topics to talk about because you wanna say it upholds global capital structures. But at the same time, for young people trying to create a new coalition to disrupt narratives, how long is that? How sustainable is that with zero operating dollars and zero dollars to ensure the safety of those that are protesting? And I think where that falls really short is that I think we've gone to a point where I think a lot of certain young people, even that are younger than me, really believe in certain binary ways of the fact that the youth movement has almost indoctrinated a lot of young people to think it's either this for climate justice or that and you're not for climate justice. So pick a side. But the reality is that doing any of this type of work, whether you're working for a for-corporate, non-profit, a foundation, It's a very messy and contradictory system that you need to just operate in. And I would really wish that as people get older, like the youth climate activists now are like maybe in their mid 20s or their early 20s, they start to recognize, oh, shoot, the only thing that was holding me down to work for free technically was college and this small part-time job I had. But now I'm an adult. I need to be looking for a full-time career. and the ethics of them trying to find themselves to say, what is an equitable salary for me? That contradicts what their friends want. And I always had to recognize when I got older is that it's not just about me, it's about my family’s survival.

Clover Hogan:

In what you were just sharing, you kind of alluded specifically to some of your work with companies and like how that has been pulled out. What has that process been like for you in deciding who you do engage with publicly? who you kind of provide a platform for and alongside, and what has that self analysis kind of looked like in coming to some of those decisions? Because I know that's something you've started talking about very transparently online.

Isaias Hernandez:

Yeah, I mean, there was a really great article that was on Teen Vogue. It talked about climate influencers. It was written by one of my friends, one of the grassroots activists named Alexia. She's really great. I love her to death. And it really opened up a conversation of like, you know, eco influencers, like what is their role? And technically, I guess you would say that anyone that has more than 10k plus following today is like an influencer, I guess. But that is blurred lines when you start to see like who's sharing more about their life versus who's just sharing when they're just doing a speaking event and an announcement of their book or whatever. And it kind of brought to this conversation that like are they centering themselves more or the movement? And so what they were saying, I think specifically, is that they were critiquing the symbols in which we represent, not versus the individuals. And I recognize this idea of symbolism in environmental movements. If you look at Jane Goodall, David Attenborough, Greta, the symbolisms of what they represent may be some criticized by other people, of course, but they're individuals, right? I don't think they have those real ill intent to her, anyone, just the symbolism that media has presented to them. And I remember just realizing, I really want to respond to this article. I made a video about it and I responded about some of the nuances that also cites their sources. And I think it was really well received of like, I never really thought about this, but I also did was concerned about the ways in which eco-influences are centered. But I think... I will be transparent. I think I am one of the very first to be openly public to talk about it more on my platform and like have a discussion. I mean, I wrote about it on my website. I have it on there, like the issues that I have as an eco-influencer. But then I think the other nuance that I had to say is that, you know, this is a career that's been supporting my family and me and also allows me to do independent media work because. Unfortunately, like camera gear is expensive. I'm trying to learn how to produce and be a director. And I have no experience whatsoever of what to do. And a lot of that is meaning to use some of that ad money to fuel and to fund my career on that end. And no one's helping me. And so usually when people have tried to argue with me or try to say certain things, I say, if you are not providing any opportunities or other ways to fund my career. then please do not engage in this discussion because I am tired of you saying what the problem is, but you're not providing any solutions out there because if I cannot find a solution right now, can you? I am not afraid to be more direct back to them because I said, this is a conversation. If you wanna discuss, let's discuss, but I don't have the solution in your hand. I'm asking you if you can help me find the solution so we can come to an agreement that I can do less ads and they don't have the solution because no one does. sometimes this struggle, particularly on social media and within the context of call out culture, to examine the system and examine the individual within that system. I think so often when we talk about systemic change, institutional change, those systems and structures, like structures of capitalism, the advertising and marketing and consumption as a major institution, it- feels so overwhelming and impenetrable that it's almost easier to direct your fire at someone who does feel relatable and does feel accessible.

Clover Hogan:

And so many of the people I follow online, eco-influencers, friends who have built their careers on social media, they feel accessible, right? They almost feel like our friends because they're sharing things from our personal lives. It almost gives us license to kind of... participate in the call out culture and be like, hey, like, you haven't thought this through properly or, you know, hurl accusations without necessarily trying to actually engage in a conversation. Because like, how often do you see someone, instead of just like hurling a moral accusation, like asking a question, like, hey, I'd be really curious to hear like what your process is for deciding like which brands you associate with. You know, that's like, that's a question, right? That I know you're willing to have a conversation on. But if you're just like you're bad for these reasons, like it's not really helpful and it's not going to open up the kind of nuance that is going to shape the culture that we're all kind of like contributing to and participating in.

Isaias Hernandez:

Yeah, no exactly and I think it comes back to this idea like how much should I be able to tell you about my personal story so that you could say oh okay now I see why you do ads, like I don't need to talk about the fact that I'm in poverty, the fact that I sell the paper, medical insurance, that I have a chronic illness, that I have all of these related issues. to that have higher expenses here in the United States for you to just say, okay, I see now. You're now good in my eyes. I don't just offer 100% climate information. I just wanna talk about the issues I deal with as an individual. And that's fine if you don't wanna talk about that. No one should be forced to talk about their personal lives. But maybe if you take a step back and recognize that, my followers really appreciate that side of me and I'm willing to share that. And just because I'm vulnerable. on that end doesn't make me less than in this movement. The danger maybe of social media is that it can create this sense of community, but then because those relationships aren't always going super deep, it can turn very quickly, right?

Clover Hogan:

Like I've definitely had that experience with like being called out. I spoke at an event last year and it was at this like labor party, like. It was a Labour Party conference and there was like a contentious political leader who was speaking there. And I shared about this engagement. And again, from the perspective of like, hey, I just want to create like transparency about like what I'm doing as an activist, like how I spend my days, which spaces I'm showing up in. And I started getting these like pretty vitriolic messages. And I was used to like trolling, I was used to getting mean comments. But they were coming from... like other activists. They were coming from people I'd put up for opportunities, like people I knew, not super intimately, but like we engage in the same spaces, like it feels like a community. And that was incredibly difficult because the kind of assumptions that were made instantly about like what my role was there in that space, like what I was trying to achieve, like all this kind of moral ammunition that was thrown at me, it just made me want to like honestly throw the towel at it. And I was just like... I'm so exhausted. I'm feeling so burnt out. And then I also have this to contend with of like feeling like I'm like the people in my camp don't even have my back. And that was really difficult because I never, I no longer felt like I could necessarily like trust the online spaces, which had like previously given me a lot of like energy and a feeling of like solidarity and my activism. So I definitely understand that. And I understand. the desire then to almost like shelter or protect yourself because you're like, I don't feel vulnerable enough to like go into that space and have that same situation happen again. But I guess moving into like more of a solution space, I'd love to hear what do you think the solution looks like? Like what do you think as a creator engaging in this space and what would you like to see more of within the movement at large? large,

Isaias Hernandez:

I'd really love to see true collaboration between older folks and young people. Because I think everyone's always like, we need intergenerational movement. And I'm like, half of y'all don't even go up to the adults at events and just stay in your little climate youth circle. So I need to see the real change because a lot of my friends like T-Clo, Riki, We have some older friends that are in their 30s, 40s, 50s, and 60s, and they really... We can agree on certain things and disagree, and that's an intergenerational difference sometimes, but I could just say like, I like hanging out with you because I'm learning different things that I've never really would have put myself on or thought about at that age. And I feel that, you know, the more that I think young people can relate to older people, the more that it would place a sense of stability. in the work that they're doing. Because if I didn't have any older friends or mentors, I feel that I would be a bit lost of what I'm doing and I feel like they've given me a redirection and like, you know, fixing the road sometimes when I'm kind of going off the road. They help me ensure that I'm going to be okay and I feel that when I was younger, I didn't have that and so I was always scared to talk to adults and I said they're against me and then I was like in my head and... Yeah, I think at social media, the solution would just be like, you know, I have like a description of why I do ads and like all these things. I said, if you really want to talk about it with me, you can email me. However, I'm no longer going to be discussing this issue on an Instagram comment. So if you truly value my time and you value your time, you will not send me a message or a comment to try to explain your justification. You try to email me to have a call and ask me these things if that is your greatest concern. And I think those boundaries really does help in the long term.

Clover Hogan:

I love your point around intergenerational conversations. And I could not agree more. I feel like most of my friends are honestly like in their 40s. Like sometimes it's embarrassing. I'm like, I need to befriend more people my own age. Um, but I feel like sometimes activism can feel a bit like middle school. And I'm like, I've progressed beyond this. Like I'm done. I don't want to like revisit those. those years, they were uncomfortable, they were messy character building, but like, we don't need to go back there. So it's really refreshing engaging with people who have been at this for a really long time. And I find it super admirable, like engaging with older people who were talking about sustainability, environmentalism before it was like anywhere near as mainstream as it is today, because they've also like been in the ring, they've been in challenging spaces. And like, they so often have this like, don't give. a shit kind of attitude that I think is very refreshing, which I think we can learn from as well. Sometimes they're just like, they kind of think social media is so almost silly. It's just like, it puts it into perspective. You're like, oh, that's true. Whatever someone's commenting is maybe not actually the end of the world, even though it can feel like it in the moment. I love that so much.

Clover Hogan:

As a final question, this is a fun question, where inviting everyone to... share their climate confessions, taking inspiration from our friends at Climate Curious in the interest of kind of like normalizing imperfect activism. So as you can imagine, I've had to come up with a lot of these confessions. So I've exposed myself as a truly inconsistent human being. But I'd love to share a confession. And then if you'd like to share one, you can as well. So I think my climate confession, I stopped buying fast fashion a long time ago with the exception of like stocks and certain things. I do have a brand partnership with a sustainable fashion company. They periodically send me clothes and that's how I keep my wardrobe fresh. That definitely feels inconsistent to me because I'm like, yeah, fun-fest fashion. I never do that. I'm like, here's this amazing free stuff I've just been sent in the mail. That is one of my climate confessions. How about you? Do you have any that come to mind?

Isaias Hernandez:

I think, you know, climate confessions is a, this is so funny. I always tell people that I don't, I'm an environmentalist. I don't believe in having a car, but the truth is that I don't even have a license. So I can't really drive. So everyone's like, oh, you're such a good environmentalist. But, and also the truth is like, I use Uber to get to, so I still use a car. Like, you know, I may not like have one, but like, I still use a car to get around in Los Angeles. So I guess it like. you know it's the same thing i'm still polluting like emissions by being in a car obviously i don't own one i don't produce that but it's still you know funny to see the fact that a lot of people just think i don't have a car because i don't believe in one but it's like no i can afford one they're expensive but i just don't have my license yet i'm gonna get it this year but eventually one day i will i love that i too am a passenger princess um i feel like any anytime you come out with these claims it's like there's you just have to like these asterisks is. It's like, yeah, I don't show first fashion asterisks, which definitely helps provide some context. And yeah, maybe then doesn't contribute to this image of perfect activism, which I think if anything can just become a bit of a prison and also distracts from conversations around systemic change, which is what I'm more interested in. I'm less concerned with individual actions. I'm more concerned with institutional level solutions.

Clover Hogan:

I love that. That is a great confession. This has been an amazing conversation. Thank you so much, Isaias, for your tender, your honesty, your transparency. It has been an absolute pleasure.

Clover Hogan:

I really resonated with Isaias sharing that pressure to be perfect can become paralysing, and distract us from conversations about systemic change. This echoed my conversation with Tori. But the main thing I’m taking away is the need to shift the narrative: our labour as activists shouldn’t be taken for granted, or exploited… and until we live in a world where this work is funded, where activists are resourced, there will inevitably be compromises. With my work at Force of Nature, I really feel this responsibility to continue advocating for the value of young people’s voices and contributions, and do everything I can to change the industry standard.

I guess something that stood out to me is when Isaias mentioned that much of the trolling he’s received has actually come from *within* the movement. I’ve also been on the receiving end of this activist in-fighting. I want to explore this more, to understand why it happens and where it comes from. So, for next week’s episode I’ve invited my friend Sophia Kianni on the show: where we’ll dive into the rise of call-out culture in activism, and what to do about it.

In the meantime, if you enjoyed today’s episode and are thirsty for more Force of Nature content, you might want to check out episode 9 from Season 2 — when we dive into consumer culture, which relates to today’s conversation around brand sponsorships. When you’ve listened, drop us a comment and let us know what you think.

Clover Hogan:

How did today's episode make you feel? Let us know by heading over to Force of Nature's instagram, @forceofnature.xyz, and dropping us a comment. If you’re between the ages of 16 and 35, you can join Force of Nature’s growing online community and access our free programmes and trainings, which help you develop the skills to take action. You can also find resources on our website.If you haven't already subscribed to the podcast... well, you know what to do. This show was brought to you by Force of Nature and OneFinePlay. From OneFinePlay, Kasra Firouzyar is the editor and producer. Connor Foley is the producer and researcher. From Force of Nature, I’m your host, Clover Hogan, and this season would not be possible without Meg Stillwell and Isabel Flynn.