This week’s episode of the Be Customer Led podcast features Amanda Ono, Chief Human Resources Officer at Kroll. When she was in college, her passion was the interaction between teams and leaders and how they worked together to drive results. She worked in a wide range of positions, including recruiting, training, and building leadership programs, which led her towards the specific title she holds now. In today’s conversation, we talk about migrating from customer experience to employee experience.

 [01.26] Professional Journey – Starting the conversation, Amanda shares where she ignited her passion for customer experience. 

[07.40] Outcomes – Amanda explains what outcomes they achieved at Resolver by bringing customers and employees together as a business decision. 

[13.13] Training programs - If training is the answer, what's the question? Amanda shares why training programs fail most of the time and what we need to do to get real outcomes form them. 

[19.37] Leadership and management – We discuss the distinction between change leadership and change management. 

[26.21] Training on empathy – Amanda walks us through how they train employees on building empathy in their onboarding program at Resolver. 

[32.55] Inspiration – Wrapping up the conversation, Amanda shares where she gets her inspiration in her life to keep going. 

Resources

Connect with Amanda

LinkedIn - linkedin.com/in/amandaono/ 

Website - resolver.com/ 

Twitter - twitter.com/amandaono 

Book by John P. Kotter

Leading Change – 

goodreads.com/book/show/51370.Leading_Change

Unknown Speaker 0:01

Welcome to be customer lead, where we'll explore how leading experts in customer and employee experience are navigating organizations through their own journey to be customer LED and the actions and behaviors of employees and businesses exhibit to get there. And now your host Bill Staikos.

Bill Staikos 0:33

Hey, everybody, welcome back to another week of be customer lad, I'm your host, Bill Staikos. You know, you you love all your children the same, but sometimes like your kids do something that is like really special. So I'm really excited for today's episode, because Amanda Ono is the chief HR officer for a company called crawl. And we're going to talk about crawl. And she was also, which is really cool. VP of Customer experience, and people and culture for a company called resolver. Now resolver is now CRO company. And we're going to get into that a little bit. But I'm really excited to talk about Amanda's sort of professional background and the switch, and the career change from the CX side, including people and culture and bring it all together, but then switch to CHRO. Amanda, thanks so much for coming on the show. And I can't wait to get into this discussion. I'm really excited to be here too. Awesome. Awesome. So all right, we're gonna be talking about from customer experience, the workforce experience. I asked every guest though, to just share your professional journey, you know, what were some of the maybe the differentiating factors for you, and going through your career. And, you know, you go back as far back as you'd like, actually. But I'll leave that to you. So wide open question. But you've got a really cool background.

Unknown Speaker 1:50

Awesome, thank you. Well, you know, when I went into university, I did an undergrad in psychology and actually wanted to be a clinician. And then I took abnormal psychology in second year and said, maybe that's not my calling. But I did take organizational psychology. And that's where the spark just really ignited. For me, you know, that the interaction between how do people leaders, teams work together to drive results, that was something that really felt everything come together. For me, I was really lucky also, at the time to have an opportunity to do some research for one of the professors there that was on unconscious bias and resume screening. And so you know, early, I kind of saw how these things clicked together to drive drive results. When I graduated, you know, I had a very nonlinear journey, I worked in, you know, sales and marketing jobs, I worked at a not for profit, doing communications and community to development and recruiting, I took an opportunity to travel to take, you know, five months and kind of see the world, which was very informative for me in terms of, you know, building perspective and empathy, and, you know, all those fun things. And then, you know, I started to kind of go more towards the people side, you know, that was always kind of the thread that has pulled through my career, how do you get the most out of people? So you know, took on roles in recruiting, training, building some of those programs, building leadership programs. So you know, there's definitely a common thread, but I would say my career has had had some range. And I think the range has allowed me to really, you know, pick on the spots where I could grow and develop, I've never really been about a specific title. I've always been about the skills and competencies I wanted to use to be successful.

Bill Staikos 3:35

That's so cool. I love I love the not focusing on the title. I know so often, a lot of folks early in their career. It's like, how do I get the next title? How do I now start managing a team? It's like, okay, slow down, you'll get there, right? It's, it shouldn't be Yeah, like you can't, you know, you don't want to just lead a team because you think it's the next step in your career. Like, you've got to really love people and want to be told accessible, right? So tell us a little bit I've

Unknown Speaker 3:59

been a bit more, but I've been a bit more of a jungle gym, I would say, than a ladder. And I think that's more fun. So, you know, I stick with that. Right? So

Bill Staikos 4:10

like the big like, old school like dome, kind of like, you know,

Unknown Speaker 4:13

that's right. Yeah, they're a little a little bit dangerous. I don't think they make those anymore, right.

Bill Staikos 4:20

Well, I love that you haven't kind of you know, it's been nonlinear. I've often found that, you know, folks who are not sort of like the straight up and narrow, are much more interesting and better leaders actually, because they have just very different experiences that they can draw from. I'm pretty boring. I've been in financial services forever and always been in customer experience. So like, I'm like, straight up that kind of ladder. I didn't plan it that way. But nonetheless, Amanda, tell us a little bit about Kroll and you know, resolver which you were, you know, leading some pretty cool stuff for before obviously now now part of CRO and what do you guys do and like what's the team is going to mission?

Unknown Speaker 4:53

Yeah, absolutely. So I'll start by speaking resolver so SAS based company, based out of Toronto And what our platform really does is try to gather all risk data and put it into context. So businesses can make great decisions. You know, I certainly think COVID has taught us a little bit more about risk. I think, you know, risk is a topic that probably wasn't happening around the dinner table. But you know, since COVID, hit now does. And so, you know, our goal is really to try to figure out how you take risk teams from the back office, and bring them to be part of you know, how they become a driver of making great decision. So we're really proud at our risk intelligence platform provides those solutions for companies around the globe. Since the acquisition, we're now part of a business unit within Kroll called Kroll digital services. And we're we're very much an emerging business unit. And so, you know, we have three offerings that will serve, you know, our customer base around the risk and financial intelligence space with leading technology. So we're really kind of incubating it. We're figuring that stuff out. And you know, I'm coming in, as you said, as the Chief Human Resource Officer of Crowell digital services. So we're in the early phases, which is kind of the mucky middle and building stuff, which I've learned in my career I really like doing.

Bill Staikos 6:08

That's awesome. That's awesome. And especially like thinking about talent and thinking about your role, and how, in that growth phase, sort of the mucky middle piece, like, that's got to be super challenging, right? Because like, it's quickly, you've got well, wonderful, I mean, crows, a large global organization. So it's nice, I'm sure to have the resources of a large global organization behind you also. But yeah, there's a lot of just like, quick moving parts, and the people piece is moving as quickly. So probably a lot to manage. That's

Unknown Speaker 6:35

right. Yeah, that's a change and a change and a change. Right.

Bill Staikos 6:41

And I don't, it takes a special person to manage that. So I'm sure you're rocking it right. Now. One of the things for me, right, and we've talked a little bit about this. So like you had brought for resolver, you guys brought people culture and customer experience together. Not a lot of companies do that, frankly. And in fact, the organizations that do in my experience, and I get to talk to a lot of companies in sort of the broader CX and DX landscape. They're really far ahead of the curve. And from a maturity perspective, can you tell us a little bit about the decision for resolver to kind of bring those things together? Like, what were you guys seeing where you were like, Hey, we need to bring customer and people together? And then if you can, Amanda, maybe share some of the maybe the some of the the outcomes you guys achieved as a result of that business decision? Yeah, absolutely.

Unknown Speaker 7:35

Well, I will share that at first, it was out of necessity, you know, COVID, I think challenged a lot of companies to look at things really differently. And so that was the first kind of hurdle. But then what what emerged was the opportunity, the opportunity to say there's this wonderful confluence between employee experience and customer experience. And actually, from a leadership perspective, many of the capabilities are similar, you know, how do you acquire How do you onboard? How do you retain? How do you reduce churn, you know, all of those things from a programmatic perspective, are actually very similar. So I think we just capitalized on the opportunity and said, you know, let's do something with this. Because, you know, the adage that happy employees make happy customers is couldn't bring more true, I think we've all been in customer service scenarios where you can tell someone just doesn't like their job, you know, and, you know, so creating a team of resolve rates and an employee base that felt really passionate about what they do, and then that cascade to their customers, you know, really helped us deliver on our motto, and part of our motto is be loved by customers. And so I think we've always seen customers aren't just the customers who pay us, it's also our employees. And so those two things coming together, I think, was just a great opportunity for us. You know, and again, from a just pure leadership play, the skill set is similar, right? So, you know, how do you engage people in a future vision for customer experience, you know, I came in, um, change needed to happen, you know, we needed to kind of re reimagine what the team needed to look like. And some of that is just, you know, full on employee communications, how are you communicating with people? How are you inspiring them to be part of the change? Next, we needed to recruit a whack load of people, because we were doing, you know, we were very fortunate to be doing well from a sales perspective. So we needed to grow the team by 60%. You know, so So how do you create recruiting programs to bring on people that are going to be able to serve your customer base, then, of course, you have to think about how do you design the team, you can't hire that many people and just kind of have the exact same design? And so we started to say, Okay, well, we have two very specific customer segments we serve, how do you design the teams to deliver for that and then within those customer segments, we also found there is very specific needs. So you know, one was for very large scale enterprise delivery, which is you know, time and material from our professional services side. And the other was fixed fee projects. And so you know, those skill sets and competencies are going to be slightly different. So how do you design a team to follow suit on that? Next, of course, you can't hire a bunch of people without onboarding them. So, you know, I was I was, you know, fortunate to get buy in from leadership that we needed someone in enablement, we needed someone that full time was thinking about how do you onboard people to be successful with your product and how you implement it, you know, project, and then you know, the domain in which we serve our customer, versus Graham, and, you know, we took a ramp for consultants and improved it by about 30%. So specifically, getting consultants from being utilized fully within nine months to utilize fully within, you know, five, five months. So huge win in terms of being able to serve the customer. But I truly feel you know, that was I was kind of part of that rebuild phase for the CX team. And I basically grabbed everything from my HR toolkit to be able to make those things true.

Wow, the enablement piece is a really interesting one, right? I feel like so many organizations, senior down to like junior level folks, say, Okay, we've hired a smart person, and we think we made the right decision during the door. Go to work, right? Yeah, that enablement is happening is such, particularly in the SAS space, right, where it's like, it's moving. So quickly, taking a step back, and just letting the person really understand the product and the business and the persona of the individuals who they're selling to are working for. You know, ultimately, you know, that is such a critical piece. It's incredible to me that that individual putting that person in place, I'm sure there were other things run that like 30%, a big number, going from nine months to five months from a ramp perspective is a massive, massive game. That's incredible.

Yeah, for sure, for sure. And you know, it's being thoughtful about building a program, right, that doesn't happen overnight. And you know, you for sure need someone that's thinking about it full time. But part of, you know, part of that change leadership team was that change leadership process was getting the management tier engaged, and you know, they are part of the onboarding, you're not tossing it over to someone just because there's a resource, you know, they're a coach that's going to enable people to be really successful in front of customers. And so, you know, I think, you know, training is one of those things that people can think about it, as you know, it's one person or it's, you know, kind of multiple people, I've always thought it's multiple people. I've always been very diligent about you know, how, you know, training programs need to be built. A mentor always used to say to me, if training is the answer, what's the question? And I just love that, right? Because I think we try to solve a bunch of stuff with training, especially with onboarding. But you've got to step back and say, Okay, there's a training event, there's a training, there's a series of training sessions you might put people through, but what makes it stick? How do you build in shadowing? How do you build in mentoring? How do you build in kind of assessing? Are people doing this? Well, and have they retain the information and so if you're not building it programmatically, you know, it's gonna be hard to get a result. And that's why so many training programs fail, you know, people attend to the training event, they say, great, 90% of people attended the training event, we got 85% satisfaction, this is great. And it's like, but you didn't build anything after. Right? So I think, you know, we were very thoughtful about that. I always use the gym analogy with people, which is, you know, for learning and development programs, doing a training session is like showing up to the gym and getting your free one hour session with a personal trainer. That's not how you get fit, right? It inspires you to get fit, but there's work that needs to be done. And it's weekly, it's, you know, checking in. And so if you're not thinking of training programs like that, it's going to be hard to see the actual outcome and result. And so we are extremely diligent about you know, tracking towards that programmatically so we could achieve that 30% improvement.

I love that. That's such a great analogy, by the way, I've never heard it explained that way. But I mean, I hope you don't mind, I may steal that I'm sure our listeners are gonna steal these two. X's perfectly, perfectly said. So in the transition from resolver to crawl. Now, you're the chief HR officer for business unit. How did you make that transition? I mean, clearly, you were doing some of that, I guess that resolver but now maybe even at a different level, like, how do you even bring in or think about, you know, the CX toolkit, helping you from a broader workforce perspective. Now in your role as CHRO?

Yeah, I mean, I think the ultimate leadership program is doing a secondment and another team and I had that opportunity within resolver. Right. It's like those old school hotel management programs that were actually there is very much something to it. But if HR leaders got an opportunity to be opera readers and operators got opportunities to be HR leaders, I think businesses would run more effectively. So certainly sitting as an operator, you know, I was accountable for half of resolvers in your revenue, a p&l customer side, making sure customers stayed. So it's a, you know, what was really interesting for me was, you know, seeing programs that the people and culture team at resolver would be putting out and sitting as an operator, you know, that was number eight on my list of the day. And so, now coming in to curl digital and thinking about how we build programs, it's like, okay, I sat as an operator, and I got that email about its performance time, or you need to hire people, or you need to give recruiting feedback. And guess what, the thing that's top of mind for an HR leader is not necessarily top of mind for an operator all the time. And so how do you shift that? And so, I think, you know, having that opportunity, as an operator, you know, really will inform how I build programs, from a sea turtle perspective. And again, you know, curl digital is emerging, you know, we're new, we've got to build a bunch of stuff, we have technology platforms that are more mature, we have some that are, you know, still building and emerging. And so, you know, I think having that perspective, and, you know, having that kind of empathy in terms of how I build those programs is going to be key for success.

Very, very cool. How does it help, though, on the other side? So maybe like, if, I mean, if you think about you going back into an operator role, like, how do you think your experience as a CHR O is going to help you be a better operator, perhaps,

think it's most companies, most knowledge based companies, you know, 60 to 80% of your operating budget is people. And so if you don't have a people centric view of the world, it's going to be difficult to achieve result. So I think having that perspective and that viewpoint, because, you know, when you think about any program you're trying to build, if you don't have the right people in C to make it happen, it's gonna be super difficult. And so I think, again, having that perspective on, you know, that is how all the programs Jenga together. And that's how the result happened, is pretty critical. And so I think part of, you know, part of also, you know, my role is, I'm able to say to folks who are, you know, are also sitting in operator seats, like, I know what it's like, I know what it's like to need to achieve a revenue goal, and you don't have the right people. I know what it's like to not have a team that has clarity, and they, you know, the lack of clarity, perhaps is creating some disengagement and some, you know, gossip or narratives that they're telling themselves. And so, you know, I just think it allows me to be a lot more of an internal adviser on because I've sat there, I've sat there, and I get it. And so I think that is, you know, part of, you know, the value that I can provide to the team.

Yeah. You mentioned, Amanda, you mentioned change a couple of times earlier, just you know, not too long ago on the show, you're a proponent of, you know, change leadership versus change management. Right. And I've heard the term change leadership before, but maybe some of our listeners have not, can you share a little bit what that what is the difference for you? Right, one? And how do you think change leadership, helps people come along sort of the journey? And how do you think that that also helps leaders bring people through the journey? Yeah, it's a

great question. And, you know, both are required to move change. And so, change management is, is really the piece that's about processes and systems, right? So you know, you need to have the infrastructure down to move things change. Leadership is about the people. It's about how do you inspire, empower, and enable people to be really successful and to be part of the change. So you can build this great infrastructure and this great system, but if the people in the system don't want to move it with you, then you're not going to go very far. And so you know, I think the big the big thing, and a lot of my perspective on this is come from John Kotter, I mean, his his book leading change is still I really listened to it recently. And it's still a still a winner in my mind. But you know, he frames it as great change is rooted in results. And I love that I think it's so true, because you can say, this is the change, we need to inspire. But you need to see those wins, and you need to see, you know, that the change is going to happen if we could take it back to the gym analogy, you know, if you're going to the gym, and you'd been doing it that personal training program for six weeks, and you didn't see any change in your fitness, it would be really demotivating and the psychology of change for people is the same. You know, they want to see small wins. They want to know that, you know, the vision and the inspiration is going somewhere. And so I've really you know, as I've I was I've helped organizations through change I've really tried to focus on how do you get the people especially the leaders engaged in the change, because they're the ones that are going to, you know, not only help with the change, and you know, make it move faster, but they're the ones that are going to make it stickier. Because the reality is, is people talk. And so you know, you can't assume that the thing you put into communication, if you're not living those behaviors is going to be the thing that people believe they're going to believe the actions, they're going to believe the results. And so if you're not driving towards that, and you don't, and you haven't yet figured out the mechanism to help empower people to be part of that, you know, change is going to be slow, it's going to be hard, or it's not going to stick. And so I think that's the thing that I've really focused on. And, you know, part of that is when you share the vision for what you believe the chain should look like, is it believable? Is it credible, your order your manager say to you, I don't think that's going to happen. And And if they say to you, I don't think it's going to happen, fine. But let's talk about why. Because maybe there's something you've missed. And if you're not engaging, you know, the rest of your leaders in the team to be part of the change, and, and to tell you like, okay, like, you're probably right on that. But these are the other four things we need to think about, then again, they're not going to believe the change is credible. And by the way, whether consciously or unconsciously, that will cascade to their team. Right? You know, and so you want people that are part of that, that change team to really believe it. And if they really believe it, they're going to be the ones that champion it and kind of continue running it with you. So that's kind of the distinction between leadership and management. To me, management is the great infrastructure on processes and systems that you have to lay down. leadership change leadership is about how you inspire and empower people to to deliver and drive towards that change. And

I guess even on that leadership point, right, I mean, I mean, if you think about sort of, like the individuals that are being impacted by that change, right, you need them to also buy in on some level, I know that part of sort of a change management process. And I'm a big follower of Carter's as well, like, you're evolving people through that process, you're getting them that change, you're enabling them, giving them a resources, helping them understand the why. But even that change leadership piece needs to be sort of adopted and internalized by the individual being impacted as well, not just the leaders that are sort of leading that overall team. So critical. So critical.

Yeah. And so creating feedback mechanisms, sorry, for its creating feedback mechanisms for people to give you feedback about the change is really important. So, again, I think when you know, part of that as you go through changes is if people give you feedback that is not positive about the change, there's a lot of leaders that will say, Well, I don't really want to fully answer that question. Or maybe they come across defensively, when someone poses a question. But if you want to model the change, you have to be open that you don't know all the answers. And if someone feels like they have a position or opinion that is not heard, what happens is they stopped speaking up. And so this is, you know, this is kind of where part of that background and you know, people in culture I really pulled on because you want to make sure you are creating channels to really listen and respond in a way that comes with, you know, out of a place of curiosity, not out of a place of defensiveness, because, you know, the worst thing you can have in a change is people who stopped engaging in it and people who stopped challenging. I never mind people that challenge because it means that they care. And, you know, yes, people have asked me uncomfortable questions in public forums. But that's okay. Because they're the voice of probably many people that just didn't have the courage to speak up. So now it's on the table, and let's talk about

it. So many me when I've, I mean, I've been, in my career been part of so many big change initiatives. And I feel like when there's silence, right, and then there's the conversation, after whatever that meeting was, like, working like, you gotta know why. Right, like, be vocal, you know, just, or maybe you didn't want to say in a big forum, but then go pull that leader aside, like, get 15 minutes or 20 minutes on your calendar, help them see your perspective, right. You know, hopefully, the cultures are already there and set up in a way to foster that conversation, whether it's off to the side or in the forum, but I'm waiting to silence is a huge killer of any positive change or any change for that matter. One of the things that, you know, we've talked about when we first met was, you know, training your professional service team, on the art of empathy, and empathy from general employee perspective, not necessarily just even from a leadership perspective is such a critical muscle to be able to flex right. So you intentionally did that. So I'm curious as to why, you know, in what was happening in resolver, where you guys looked at that and said, We think that this is going to have an impact like what do you think that was?

Yeah, so you know, as you said, I did definitely see the benefits on the employee side and you know, we training on empathy was part of our onboarding program resolver. Generally, from an enterprise perspective, it came from the fact that when I stepped into the customer experience role, you know, I had to implement it for technologies resolver, or as a customer, so, you know, incoming HR tech. And so I'd sat in that seat as a customer. And I thought it was really important to share with our services team, what that experience and what that journey was like for me, because in any given professional services organization, you might be one of, you know, 10 customers or the services team is working with at the time, it's all you do all day, when you get good at it. Whereas when you're sitting in the customer seat, it's one of 20 things that you're doing probably off the side of your desk, thank goodness, you got budget to implement. But that doesn't necessarily mean you have time, you're not an expert in the technology. When you see someone demoing and training for you, they whizzed through it, they're using acronyms and terms, you have no idea what they are. And so you know, I kind of challenge people to just say, you know, a great, a great journey is a journey for a customer where they feel you're walking beside them, you're not, you know, in forcing a change on them, you're walking beside them in that journey. And so, you know, I think it was really important for me to share that, you know, we certainly adopt it the the mentality that Amazon made very famous, which was the empty chair, you know, every meeting early Amazon would have an empty chair, and they would say, what would the customer think? And I noticed when I came into CX, there is a lot of programs that had been built for us to make our lives easier, but not necessarily the customer's life easier. So are we doing something to the customer or for the customer? And so I think, you know, just challenging that mentality to say, hey, it may be great that we've done this, and we're now more efficient, and we're faster. But does the customer like that. And it was a very small shift in perspective, that was to be honest, super annoying to the management team when I came in, because almost every meeting, I would ask, but what would the customer want? And what would they say? So they decided that I was, you know, had to adopt it a little bit of this toddler approach to asking why, but it started to engage people in the conversation, you know, yeah, you're right. Why do we do this. And so I think it just, you know, it challenged people in every interaction and everything we build, to sit in that empty chair, and be the customer that has, you know, multiple things going on in their life, budgets, dropped times dropped, but really wants to be part of this positive change in an organization through technology. You know, I was pretty big, with people sharing with them that, you know, we're not just implementing a technology, we are implementing a change that is then enabled by technology, the change is coming with a change in that company's process, a change in that customers, Team behaviors, change in how they want to see insights and data. And so technology is under that, but it's a bigger change. And any time I was on an escalation, it was truly because there was something that was probably going to make that customer look bad to their boss, because no one wants to implement a technology and look bad in front of their boss. And so you know, I think it was also just imagine what would it feel like to finally get budget to you know, advocate for this new technology, and it didn't work, how they thought it was going to work. Imagine that was you. And so again, it was just really building that empathy and perspective for people to acknowledge and understand that that is, that is the value of what we provide is being alongside with our customers. And so, you know, it's a shift, it's a shift in in philosophy with a team. And I think it comes with, you know, constant feedback, it comes with constant challenge, but I feel like we've really landed in a great spot. And we see that with, you know, that shows up in our customer satisfaction scores. And so you know, I think it does, it does pay off when it comes

to that. Awesome. Love that you guys did that. All right, I've got a I asked every guest of mine, Amanda, to ask me a question of my next guest. And the question for you. And I it's incredible. I've been doing this for a year now, because I did start at the top of the year. But the question for you is, if you had the proverbial kind of magic wand, right now of time, money resources to switch careers, and now you've done this already, right. So now I'm curious. What passion Would you follow? Yeah, this

is a tough one because I so love what I do. I think I found that trifecta of something I love I'm good at, you know, where I'm rewarded for that. You know, when I was in grade six, I really wanted to be an interior designer. It uses a different part of your brain. It kind of integrates how, you know, people move in space. So Oh, yeah, if I were to just say do something, you know, have a third career and my journey, I might do something totally different, but still actually involves. How do you engage people? How do people move through change? And how can you be empathetic towards their result? I don't think that'll go away. That'll be with me forever.

I can well, yeah, I mean, once you've been doing it for a while, and you love what you do, you kind of can't ever get away from it. Right? All right, I'm going to turn the tables to you. What question do you have for my next guest?

Well, I come from a pretty strong bias with this. But if you could build or improve any technology to make your life easier, what would you build?

Great question. I love that question. I love that question. All right. I'm excited. I'll let you know when I ask it and who is the responder? So I'll send you the response. I've got one more question for you. I know you've got a busy day ahead of you. Before we wrap up, where do you go for for inspiration? What fills up your tires?

fills up my tires in terms of inspiration? I think it's, I look at kind of every day, right? The every day pieces of inspiration. I think I'm pretty open to stuff like that. And I think inspiration is how you look at it. So you know, I'm I'm inspired when I go for a walk and I see fake cool things in nature. I'm inspired when I read a fiction book, and I hear a great story. So my life is focused on everyday inspiration versus, you know, heroic feats. So I look for it everywhere, which means I find it everywhere. So my tires are pretty full. frequently. I am an optimist by design, and I think that's part of it. I think you can find inspiration anywhere you look for it. And I do that daily.

Very cool. Amanda, thanks so much for the gift of your time been a wonderful conversation. A lot of learning for me, I'm going to steal probably 90% of what we've talked about today and sounds good. I loved like the gym analogy and other things that you kind of brought up just such just brilliant stuff. But really, truly thank you for coming on. It's such a pleasure to have you.

Thank you. It's really great being here.

I appreciate it. All right, everybody. Another great show. Amanda. Oh no, we're out. We'll talk to you next week everyone. Talk to you soon everyone

listening to be customer lead with Bill Staikos. We are grateful to our audience for the gift of their time. Be sure to visit us at B customer led.com For more episodes, leave us feedback on how we're doing or tell us what you want to hear more about. Until next time. We're out

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