Dr. Emily Kiberd discusses the innovative concept of palm cooling and its transformative effects on Hashimoto's, perimenopause, and menopause workouts with Ariel and Evie from Apex Cool Labs. This episode of the Thyroid Strong Podcast delves into the science behind palm cooling, how it can help women push harder, recover faster, break through workout plateaus, and avoid exercise-induced fatigue. Ariel and Evy explain their backgrounds, the research backing palm cooling, practical applications, and personal experiences. They also address its potential in managing hot flashes and night sweats. Tune in to discover how this tool can elevate both physical and mental health.

00:00 Introduction to Exercise Fatigue in Hashimoto's

01:15 Discovering Palm Cooling

01:48 Meet the Innovators: Apex Cool Labs

02:39 The Science Behind Palm Cooling

07:13 Real-Life Applications and Success Stories

09:59 Understanding the Mechanisms and Benefits

19:22 Palm Cooling for Autoimmune Conditions

20:00 Palm Cooling for Exercise Intolerance

22:17 Mechanism of Palm Cooling

23:42 Optimal Conditions for Palm Cooling

24:24 Practical Applications and Benefits

26:16 Personal Experiences and Recommendations

30:13 Advanced Palm Cooling Technology

34:22 Potential Health Applications for Women in menopuase

36:21 Excitement and Future of Palm Cooling

Find the Narwhals from Apex Cools Labs here.

If you are looking to lose weight with Hashimoto's, check out Thyroid Strong Elite. You get thyroid friendly workouts customized to you and personalized calories and macros to get you to the body of your dreams.

Ladies, Dr.

2

Emily Kiberd here.

3

We are going to talk about something

today that no one else in the

4

Hashimoto's world is talking about.

5

It's pretty cool, actually.

6

If you've ever felt like you've

been doing everything right in your

7

workouts, but you're still hitting

that exercise fatigue wall, or that

8

exercise intolerance wall, I see you.

9

I've been there too.

10

You lace up your sneakers.

11

You grab your kettlebell.

12

You start your workout.

13

You feel completely

gassed halfway through.

14

Your heart is pounding.

15

Your muscles are burning.

16

That wave of fatigue that feels

all too familiar starts to set in.

17

Or maybe it's even after your workout.

18

And let's get real.

19

When you have Hashimoto's, that

kind of exhaustion doesn't just

20

disappear after a quick rest.

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It lingers.

22

It keeps you stuck.

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It makes progress feel impossible.

24

What if I told you there was a way to

push harder, recover Faster and actually

25

see the results you're going for a

bang and body tone, definition, muscle

26

tissue, flat tummy, all those things.

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But if you actually saw those results

and we're able to get those results

28

without that Hashimoto's crash.

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This is where palm cooling comes in.

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That's right.

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I'm talking about the palm of your

hand, cooling it, not just sticking

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it in a container of ice water.

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A very specific device to cool your palm.

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This is a game changer.

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I've been using this for strength

training, for endurance training, for

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recovery, especially for the Hashi ladies.

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And dare I say, even for the women

in perimenopause or in menopause

38

that are having hot flashes.

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This is a very specific, very

interesting tool to use today.

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I'm sitting down with the brilliant

minds behind apex cool labs, the

41

innovators making cutting edge palm

cooling technology accessible to

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everyday ladies with Hashimoto's with

autoimmune diseases in perimenopause

43

or menopause, just like us.

44

We are going to break down the

science behind how the cooling of

45

your palms can help you lift heavier.

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How the cooling of your palms

can make you work out longer.

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How the cooling of your palms

can help you break through those

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frustrating workout plateaus.

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Without sending your body into

a full blown Hashi flare up.

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I know you've been there.

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I've been there too.

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So, if you're looking for a way

to train smarter And maybe harder.

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I know I am.

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This episode is for you.

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Let's dive in.

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Ariel and Evie, welcome

to Thyroid Strong Podcast.

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Excited to have you here.

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We're gonna talk about something

that I think is new and up and

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coming, maybe not in your world,

but I think for the world at large.

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Thank you.

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We're excited to be here.

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Can you guys give a little

bit of your background?

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I know Ariel, you are.

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A science PhD, researcher at heart.

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Can you both give a little bit of

your background and how you got

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into this field of palm cooling?

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Yeah, absolutely.

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so I am a marketer by trade.

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Up until recently I was the

chief marketing officer for

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Tracker, software platform.

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I've been in software most of my life.

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But I am truly passionate about fitness.

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I like to say that, I treat life like

a sport and train like an athlete so

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I can stay in this game as long as

possible I really am passionate about.

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Inspiring more women to start

resistance training because

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it's been so powerful for me.

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In that quest to get stronger I

discovered, palm cooling on a podcast.

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Ariel happened to listen to the

same podcast and I was like,

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what is this palm cooling thing?

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And, and, and basically, like

went on this quest to figure out

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how, how to access the potential.

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And through that met aerial.

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And created, apex Cool Labs with him.

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And it was over a tweet

You guys met, right?

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Yes.

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Can you tell us about this tweet?

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Yeah, absolutely.

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So basically I, I, I listened

to this podcast and I, and I was

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trying to understand how to hack

this protocol of palm cooling.

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In the process I was running my

hands through a bucket of water and

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I made this very embarrassing video.

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I think I'm wearing a

Broncos, winter hat in my gym.

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I posted it out there saying,

Hey, internet, help me.

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Am I doing this right?

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And crickets like nobody has any answers.

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Until three months later I get this

reply from Ariel, who, needs to

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introduce himself but because of

his background was hacking this in

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a much smarter way and happened to

be just 45 minutes away from me.

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So I drove over to Boulder and

tested out this prototype in

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his basement and was blown away.

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About eight weeks later had managed

to increase my pull up volume by 50%.

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Thanks to this early prototype, Ariel,

I think you should introduce yourself

103

and share a little bit about how

you got into this and the amazing,

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prototype you built that led us to meet.

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We like to say the first time EV

and I met, she did pushups in my

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basement, which is very on brand.

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I heard about this protocol on Andrew

Huber's podcast, and the results

108

that were being discussed just

seemed very difficult to believe.

109

So, you know, they're talking about

basically first time you're trying

110

this on dips or pushups, you're

nearly doubling your work volume.

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It's not making you stronger,

but being able to do more work.

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That podcast, described results,

but didn't get into the nitty

113

gritty of what the parameters you

are, you need to do palm cooling.

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So, We'll obviously get into the

science of how this works later, with

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my background, I'm a PhD physicist.

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Yes.

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But I love to tinker.

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I love to build.

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So I went out after that podcast and

found their papers from Stanford, from Dr.

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Heller's lab and started to read, what are

the parameters you need to hit to Palm?

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Cool.

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Correctly, and.

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Found that, they're using a

temperature of something you're

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touching that's about 55 degrees.

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It was pretty clear you needed something

that was whisking away a lot of heat.

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So I went out to McGuckin's,

our local hardware store.

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Bought some plumbing supplies.

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Put some copper pipes together

with a recirculating pump, got

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water the right temperature.

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And literally the first time I tried

this doubled my volume on bench press.

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So then I started looking around

on the internet like, well, there

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are other people trying this.

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And I happened to see Evie's tweet and

then when I noticed she wasn't that far

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away, I said, why don't you come over?

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She didn't know me yet.

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She came over with her husband.

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She and I hung out upstairs and I soldered

together one of these very initial

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prototypes for her while she was trying

out my prototype in the basement and was

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noticing, wow, this is really working.

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So she took home one of these versions.

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Before we had this portable

device that we have now, and.

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After some time started to

realize, hey, we get along,

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maybe we should start a business.

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Love it.

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So great.

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Over one tweet, love of

fitness and increasing our

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recovery and volume capacity.

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Can you explain for the people listening

who have no idea what palm cooling is, the

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basic science, as well as the benefits?

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Absolutely.

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Ariel, do you wanna take the science.

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Yeah, so let's start high level

and drill down, when we work out,

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whether that's aerobic or resistance

training, we're going to produce heat.

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Our muscles are about 20 to 30% efficient.

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So however much energy goes into

movement, about three to four times

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more gets dumped into heat in your body.

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That's raising your core body temperature

and locally heating your muscles.

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Heat can be inhibitory,

can create fatigue.

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So if we can cool down, we can cool

our muscles, we can do more work.

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The best way to cool your muscles

is actually to cool your blood.

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Your skin, your fascia, your muscles,

fat layers, they're all good insulators.

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So that heat stays within you

very, very effectively in a sense.

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And when we're trying to get rid of

it, we wanna be able to cool our blood.

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Turns out one of the best ways to

cool your blood is to cool your palms.

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And the reason for that,

let's talk about that first.

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So what's special about your palm?

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So we're mammals.

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Palms of our hands, souls of our

feet and our upper cheeks and upper

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face region are places where we

actually have no hair on our skin.

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That tissue is called glamorous tissue,

and in that tissue underneath is

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special vasculature, which is direct

connections between arteries and veins.

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So normally you've got arteries,

go to capillaries, go back to

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capillaries, go back to veins.

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So there's not very

efficient exchange of blood.

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But in glamorous tissue, the

exchange of blood can be up to 10

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times more than in other parts of

your skin when you are cooling.

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So in those portions of the skin, if

you are cooling or warming, there's

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just very efficient exchange of heat.

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So we've all had the experience.

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Something like laying in bed at night.

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warm under the covers.

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You put your foot out

from under the covers.

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You do that instinctively

because these places in your body

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are basically like radiators.

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Or if you are cold and you

walk up to a fire, what's one

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of the first things you do?

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You put your hands towards the fire.

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You do this instinctively.

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So we can get a little more

into the science of what's

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going on with cooling down, but.

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That's why palm cooling, because that's

a place where you can really efficiently

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exchange the heat through your blood.

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When would I do this?

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And obviously you guys shared a little

bit of increasing volume or prs, what

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would be some applications of this?

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Yeah, that's a great question.

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So palm cooling is incredibly well

suited to any sort of physical activity

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where there is built in rest, which is

often the case when we're exercising.

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So that can be resistance

training in between your sets.

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That can be when you're doing

cardio intervals, and you're

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taking that break in between.

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Your intervals.

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, it can also be during, competition or if

you're playing a sport, if you are into

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tennis or pickleball, which I'm learning.

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, the, these are all, these

all have built-in rest, right?

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You're gonna go take a break,

grab some water, you can hold

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onto something, you can cool your

palms during that time period.

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Palm cooling to be effective is,

you basically, you need about 90

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seconds to three minutes of cooling.

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When you're taking that break.

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So again, it's, really well suited

to any sort of physical activity

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where there's that built-in rest.

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It can be used, it sounds like, from a

cardiovascular perspective as well as

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a strength hypertrophy phase as well.

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Yes.

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Can you give some case studies that you

have found for people who have used Apex

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Schools, the Narwals, you guys call them.

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I'm lucky to know here

in Boulder, we have.

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Amazing athletes just walking around,

multiple Olympians, things like that.

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So crazy, crazy.

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Really.

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A friend I know in my neighborhood who

I've known through walking my dog for

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years is a world champion triathlete,

and had been in the Olympics as well

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for a triathlon, just an extremely

strong fit athlete who these days has.

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A nasty autoimmune disorder that

makes it very difficult for her to

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exercise, but she has to still exercise.

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So when I was first getting into this

and building some of these initial

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prototypes, she liked to still ride

her Peloton, but her particular.

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Disorder called F M F makes it very

hard to regulate her body temperature.

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So she was noticing that even though, her

fitness was, was quite down from what it

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used to be, that she just felt like she

wasn't able to get the watts that she

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should be able to get on her peloton.

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So, rigged up a bit of a setup

with, again, copper pipes and

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some tubing and a recirculating

pump on her Peloton directly.

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And she was basically cooling

continuously while riding, and it was

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making an enormous difference for her

ability to still exercise at the level

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she wanted to because it was helping

her regulate her temperature better.

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Basically, she has things like

pots, she has things like, basically

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that difficulty in regulating her.

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her core body temperature.

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So this was really helping

her stay at a reasonable level

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while exercising on her peloton.

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Yeah.

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Can you give some other examples

of, I know you work with some

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climbers as well as maybe some of the

female lifters you've worked with.

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Yeah.

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We work with power lifters.

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We also work with CrossFitters.

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We work with.

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Climbers I'm trying to

think of, we hockey players.

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Oh, for sure.

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Hockey players.

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Hockey's been a big one.

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Yeah.

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It's really interesting.

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In hockey, I didn't realize

this until recently, that hockey

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players are wearing upwards of

40 pounds of gear while skating.

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Very for long periods of time.

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So that heat, obviously that Ariel

was talking about, not only is that

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trapped by our muscles and skin,

but then trapped by that gear.

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So another great application if

you are wearing heavy gear and

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need to cool during your sport.

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That's also an application.

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But yeah, definitely see a lot of,

we have a lot of women who are.

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pushing their, their numbers up.

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We see, PRS practically every week

from the folks personal records every

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week from the folks using the narwhals,

which is incredibly exciting to see.

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Yeah.

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Can I know you guys love research.

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Can you share some of the

lab out of Stanford had found

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with using palm cooling?

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Yeah, absolutely.

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there was actually a couple

of studies out of there.

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Arrow, do you wanna take this one?

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Sure.

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So one of the initial studies

they did was with aerobic.

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So they basically had people walk in

a hot room, over a hundred degrees

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on an incline treadmill till they

basically said, I can't walk any longer.

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And then they cooled them.

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I don't remember exactly how long, but

I think it was in that sort of three,

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four minute range with palm cooling.

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And then they'd see how much

longer they could go, and

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usually they could go somewhere

between 20 and 30 minutes longer.

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After that sort of point of exhaustion.

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So that was one of those first piece

of evidence they had that said, this is

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really helping out, because that was that

piece, that's that core body temperature.

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So helping bring your core body

temperature back down also,

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it's well understood that.

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Heart rate is well correlated

to core body temperatures.

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So palm cooling has been well shown

to help with heart rate recovery and

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especially with the hockey coaches.

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We've worked with the strength

and conditioning hockey coaches.

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They've seen this with heart rate

monitors, people doing skating

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that, really helps bring that

heart rate back down quickly.

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So that's why it's so nice

for interval type training.

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Then one of the next big studies

that Stanford put out was on.

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resistive training, and it talked

about two main things, pull-ups

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and bench press that they showed.

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So they were trying to show

both for work volume and for

300

true just strength increases.

301

So for that study, what they did was

they did about an eight week study

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for the pull-ups where they had people

doing, A set of pull-ups tell near

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failure cooling for about three minutes.

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Set of pull-ups tell near failure.

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And most people in that study about

doubled their work volume in eight weeks.

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They had one crazy outlier they often

quote, which was doing over 600 pull-ups

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in an hour, but that's an outlier.

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So most of the people were doing, if

they could do about 60 pull-ups in,

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in that full hour, they were doing

about 120 at the end of the study.

310

Then they also had a bench

press study where they were

311

doing a pyramid type workout.

312

And what they did in that, the study

design was, they did about, these were

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trained lifters, so they was, there

were people who could bench about 2

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25 and for the first four weeks they

had 'em doing this pyramid without

315

palm cooling, rest in between.

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And that was, again, three minutes rest.

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It was about a, a six.

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Set pyramid going up to a top set.

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And if you finish the whole pyramid,

the next week or the next session,

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you added five pounds to each set.

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So what they showed in that was first

four weeks, no cooling protocol,

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next six weeks, cooling protocol.

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And what they noticed was

about basically no gains basic

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plateau in the first four weeks.

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And then, then in the next six

weeks, they had an average of 20%.

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Strength gain.

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So top one rep max going up by

about 20% in that six weeks.

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That's one of the initial things I tried.

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So I'm 45 now, I guess

I was 44 at the time.

330

I tried this same thing with my initial

prototype and saw similar gains.

331

Basically I'd never been able to bench 2

25 in my life and was able to bench over

332

2 25 using that same pyramid protocol.

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Yeah, amazing.

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Not only does it help increase

work volume, does it help with any

335

sort of recovery in terms of dos,

delayed onset muscle soreness?

336

Yeah, that's a great question.

337

And it, it has definitely been discussed

in, some of the conversations around

338

palm cooling, but it hasn't, there

isn't necessarily one study on delayed

339

onset muscle soreness that has,

that we have, that we're aware of.

340

We have personally experienced a reduction

in DOMS from this work, especially

341

in the cases where you're working

on muscle endurance in the pushups

342

or pullups or dips use case where.

343

This morning I did seven sets of max

rep pushups and I've been doing this

344

now week over week, and you would

expect to not be able to move your

345

arms or lift your arms the next day.

346

And I, I just don't have that.

347

I do have some soreness, but not

on par with what I normally feel.

348

I know Ariel, you've had

a similar experience.

349

Yeah.

350

And we should note, so there is not,

for the muscular endurance piece,

351

there's a well understood mechanism.

352

the reduction in DOMS has been

reported anecdotally by many people.

353

It's been discussed on

that huberman Lab podcast.

354

We were looking in the literature and

they don't specifically discuss this,

355

but even on that podcast, the Stanford

researchers say that mechanism is not well

356

understood why this would reduce doms.

357

But one thing we've certainly

noticed in terms of protocol is.

358

It works especially well if you do a

longer session of cooling at the very end.

359

So what I'll normally do, if I'm gonna

do some long muscular endurance, many

360

sets, something like pull-ups or, or

some other resistive exercise, then at

361

the very end I may do five, six, even

seven minutes of cooling at the very end.

362

And that seems to have a really nice

effect on the reduction of doms.

363

But that's something that,

again, the mechanism is just

364

not that well understood.

365

Yeah, let's bring it to this audience.

366

So this audience is autoimmune Women, they

often experience exercise intolerance.

367

Part of exercise intolerance not only

is fatiguing quickly, not wanting to get

368

our heart rate up too high, but also.

369

What we mentioned before, which is POTS

is feeling like you're gonna faint.

370

Oftentimes these women

have low blood pressure.

371

Is there, is there an application of

palm cooling for this audience of women

372

with autoimmune conditions who have

a hard time maintaining their muscle

373

mass, but need to lift weights to

maintain it, but then also struggle with

374

this balance of exercise intolerance.

375

Yeah, absolutely.

376

I think there's a, a very clear

use case for palm cooling, as a

377

treatment for exercise intolerance.

378

And so there is a, a study,

it's not peer reviewed.

379

It, was a, a poster presentation, but

that it looked at, and this is, this

380

is different, but it's interesting

because it was, it was looking

381

at, the impact of palm cooling on.

382

Exercise tolerance in obese women.

383

And what they found was that

cooling enabled these women to do

384

to, to, to work out more and be

more comfortable, basically kind

385

of regulate some of that thermal

discomfort is how they talked about it.

386

So just that heat that it starts to

prevent, your ability to work out and,

387

and the women who went, who used palm

cooling saw much better gains in, in terms

388

of improvements in their blood pressure.

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In their resting heart rate,

in their waist circumference.

390

in their aerobic capacity, basically, they

were able to do more work and get more

391

benefit from the work they were able to

do than the women who were not cooling.

392

So I think this is a great, again,

more research is needed, but this seems

393

like a really great application for

anybody who is suffering from exercise

394

intolerance, where that heat just really

becomes prohibitive and you can't do

395

the volume of work that you need to

do to build or maintain muscle mass.

396

that is tremendous to be able to

allow someone to pick up a weight.

397

They may be already scared of it, but they

know they need to maintain their muscle

398

and then to give them a tool that is.

399

Really simple to access.

400

They don't have to like change their

clothes and jump in a cold PL or anything

401

like that to then be able to increase

their capacity and start to see progress.

402

Cuz I think a lot of times women,

when they do have that exercise

403

intolerance, it's very Defeating.

404

They don't wanna exercise again.

405

They're may be scared of

having like a drop attack.

406

So really tremendous application.

407

I'm gonna ask some questions that I think

might come to the listener's mind that

408

I would love for you guys to debunk.

409

So for example, Ariel, when you

were like, yeah, when I was first

410

starting, I was switching my hands in

a bucket of cold water with some ice.

411

Why can't someone just put their hands

in ice, like in a bucket of ice with some

412

water to potentially get the same effect?

413

the big deal is, like we said,

you've got these connections between

414

arteries and veins, your arterial

venous anastomosis as they're called,

415

what those that are there for.

416

They really serve two purposes, right?

417

They're radiators, but also if you think

about it, look, they're in the palms of

418

your hands and the souls of your feet.

419

They're where the arteries and

veins turn around, and those big

420

connections are sort of muscular.

421

They can open or close, and what

that allows your body to do is

422

when you are very, very cold,

you know that your extremities.

423

Get colder first.

424

The way your body does that

is it shunts the blood.

425

It squeezes those, those

connections down and stops blood

426

from flowing to your extremities.

427

That's the way, that's the

mechanism it uses to cons control

428

blood flow to your extremities.

429

So if you put your hands in ice water,

those connections will squeeze down

430

the, what we call vasoconstrict,

and then you'll no longer get

431

blood flow through your hands.

432

In that same way, so then you're

not exchanging the heat well.

433

You're the blood is not getting that

coolness to it because you're not

434

getting the blood flow through there.

435

If those connections are nice and wide

open, you're getting that very high

436

blood flow through that's allowing

you to exchange the heat well.

437

So the big key here, the secret

sauce to palm cooling, which they

438

didn't talk about at first, was

the right temperature to do it at.

439

Which is you need to be cool, not cold.

440

So different people are a little

different, but overall, human skin

441

basically vasoconstricts around 55

degrees Peron, that's gonna be a about

442

the right temperature for most people.

443

Some people if have

tolerance to going colder.

444

I think there are actually some

athletes who, if they're big and really

445

are good at dumping heat, there are

some people who can go quite cold.

446

We've heard of one or two people

that literally use an ice bucket.

447

But that is very rare.

448

Most people, if you put your hands in

ice water, you're gonna vasoconstrict.

449

It's not gonna work.

450

Yeah.

451

Is there also a sweet spot?

452

I know you mentioned 90 seconds

to three minutes in terms of

453

how long you're holding them.

454

all of the Stanford research

was done at about three minutes,

455

and that was, we should mention

that was with a single hand.

456

They were doing that with.

457

So it turns out that if you're using

both hands, intuitively might think it's

458

about double the effect and it's not.

459

The research shows it's about 1.6

460

times the effect if you're using both

hands, but so you can go potentially

461

a little less than three minutes.

462

The reason Stanford shows three minutes

is that, is if you look at the curve

463

of how much heat you're taking out.

464

You get diminishing returns

after about three minutes.

465

So three minutes is getting you

the bulk of the curve, if you will,

466

of how much heat you're removing.

467

But you can go a little bit less, EV

can tell you some of the protocols

468

she's doing where she uses three minutes

for some exercises and less problems.

469

when I'm doing compound lifts

like squatting or deadlifting.

470

Just like I would normally without

palm cooling, I want that longer rest.

471

So three minutes is great when I

am getting later into my workout

472

and both time constraints as well

as, upper body muscles are smaller.

473

I would imagine less heat and aerial can

correct me, but, I'll reduce that rest

474

to maybe two or two and a half minutes.

475

I, I have found even 90 seconds

working for me when I am doing interval

476

training, so that's really nice.

477

If you're trying something like

a 32nd sprint, 92nd rest, which

478

is a lovely, one to three.

479

Work grasp ratio, which is fantastic.

480

that's the shortest I'll go.

481

within those parameters, 90 seconds to

three minutes, you are getting a benefit.

482

you will notice a benefit and I

think it's something too that's

483

personal and you need to figure out

what feels, what feels right to you.

484

Yeah.

485

And I'll circle back to one piece

that you were talking about with

486

exercise intolerance from just

a psychological point of view.

487

One of the things that people report

to us all the time is this sort of

488

what you might refer to as a first set

feeling where you, you go into a set

489

and you feel fresh for the next set.

490

And that may be a combination of both.

491

One of the removal of some of

the heat from your muscles, but

492

also that heart rate recovery.

493

You're just feeling

fresher for the next set.

494

So if you have some of that exercise

intolerance, if it just doesn't

495

feel worn out, For that next set,

you're gonna keep that motivation.

496

So I think there is that,

that psychological piece too,

497

of just how you're feeling

for that next set each night.

498

Can you speak to application, so to

give women a visual, are you palm

499

cooling between every set or is it

after a circuit moving onto your

500

next circuit, how do you guys find it

to be most efficient and effective?

501

Yeah, I typically will not be cooling

as I'm doing my warmup sets, you want

502

the body to get a little bit warm

and get ready for physical activity.

503

I will typically start cooling

as I'm either approaching

504

or starting my working sets.

505

So those sets that are at that target

weight I'm aiming for in the day.

506

so that's, if I'm weightlifting,

if I'm doing a circuit.

507

going from maybe box jumps to kettle bell

swings to pushups or something like that.

508

What I like to do is construct

it in such a way that I get a two

509

minute rest between, between rounds.

510

And it's exactly what Ariel said.

511

It's this first round feeling

every time you just come back and

512

you can put so much more effort

into it and you don't feel this.

513

I gotta take a break and then,

my next set of pedal, bell

514

swings, or something like that.

515

it really fits in nicely, in, in most,

in, in most of the ways that you are

516

going to construct your fitness program.

517

I love that.

518

So very cool experience.

519

Um, Ariel, what were you gonna say?

520

Well, I, I was gonna say, you know, I

think if you're doing something like

521

Imam m it's not a great fit, right?

522

Because you just don't have

quite enough rest in that.

523

In that little bit to get

a good effect from it.

524

So, you know, if you're doing kettlebell

swings, Imam, you'd go, oh, you know, I've

525

got 20 seconds maybe before my next set.

526

That's just not quite a great fit.

527

But I, I personally, you know, if I'm just

doing, I, I really enjoy high volume stuff

528

now, I'm gonna just do a bunch of sets

of shoulder press, something like that.

529

I'm basically cooling between

every single set or I really

530

like these for the climbing gym.

531

So if.

532

You do something like going and

doing a climbing route after maybe

533

my first climbing route, where again,

I feel warmed up after that, I'm

534

basically using them between each one.

535

Cause you're really getting that

intense burn, that intense pump.

536

It's really great for that, for

feeling fresh for your next climb.

537

Huberman spoke to having an open palm.

538

Right?

539

And so I think the one out of Stanford

is like this big machine with tubes and

540

this mit and it's like cumbersome, right?

541

You're not necessarily taking

that to the climbing gym.

542

Is there a difference between this

kind of open palm versus a slight

543

closed palm where you're holding

the copper piping of the narwhal?

544

Yes.

545

So what you need to be careful

of is, One thing we try to make

546

very clear to any users of our

device is you just need to hold.

547

You don't need to grip,

you don't need to squeeze.

548

If you squeeze, you BA are constrict.

549

Same, same idea.

550

So Stanford does this open palm on

their device for I think two reasons,

551

just trying to get good surface area

and yeah, you're making sure then

552

that people are not gripping, but

basically if you just pick up the

553

narwhals and you're making good thermal

contact and you're not squeezing them.

554

You're fine.

555

There's, there's no problem with that.

556

So it's a great question.

557

Can you speak to the copper piping

because I, when we met in person, in

558

terms of not only cooling the palm, but

pulling the heat away from the palm in

559

terms of the design of the copper piping.

560

Yeah.

561

So what you see out there is a lot

of what I'll call misinformation.

562

So it's, there's two basic parameters.

563

Well, we'll say there's three

basic parameters you want to

564

hit for good palm cooling.

565

And this is, I think one of the reasons

why there's a lot of skepticism is

566

if you don't hit those parameters,

it doesn't really work very well.

567

So you need the right surface temperature.

568

So that's one thing.

569

So you're not, valves are

constricting and it's cool enough

570

that you're exchanging heat.

571

Well, you need to be holding something

with good thermal conductivity.

572

And so what we mean by that is, The

experiment I like to have people

573

do is go to your refrigerator.

574

If you open your refrigerator, everything

in there should be the same temperature,

575

but try touching different surfaces.

576

If you touch the walls of

the fridge, they're plastic.

577

Try touching maybe something that's

plastic, glass bottle in your fridge, and

578

then try touching an aluminum bottle even

though they're all the same temperature.

579

Different items are gonna feel

colder, and a part of that is

580

their thermal conductivity.

581

So the more heat that's flowing

from your hand, the colder an

582

object's gonna feel, right?

583

It's why we make a sauna out of wood.

584

Wood does not have a very good

thermal conductivity, so you can

585

sit on that and it's not flowing

a lot of heat into you, right?

586

So, You need something with

good thermal conductivity.

587

So you even hear huberman talked

about grabbing a cold glass of water.

588

That is not gonna work very well because

glass has a poor thermal conductivity.

589

So even though it feels at the right

temperature, it's not gonna be drawing,

590

allowing the heat to flow from your

hand very effectively, cuz it doesn't

591

have a good thermal conductivity.

592

And the next thing, which is a little

more subtle, but if you've done some

593

cold plunging, you know about, this

is what we call a thermal barrier.

594

If you get in a cold plunge and stay

very still, It's not so bad, right?

595

Because you get a thermal barrier,

you get the water right near your

596

skin, warming up, and then you

have a bit of an insulating layer.

597

But if you kind of agitate right,

or you get in a cold shower, it's

598

very different because the, the cold

is continually washing over you.

599

So you need some sort of

mechanism where the cold is

600

being whisked away, if you will.

601

So in the Stanford device called the Cool

mit, they have a cold water loop that's

602

being recirculated through that mit.

603

In my original very thing I made

that every tried it was some copper

604

pipes with the recirculating pump

where we have water running through.

605

And what we're using in the narwhals is

this amazing technology called heat pipes.

606

Heat pipes you can find in your computer,

you can find, find in your phone.

607

They're a passive device with no

moving parts that whis away heat.

608

I'll try to make the simple explanation.

609

They're a hollow copper tube that's

closed at both end and inside

610

there's a little bit of water.

611

And the copper tube that's hollow

has been pulled down to a vacuum.

612

So we know here in boulder water

boils at a lower temperature.

613

We're at a higher

altitude, lower pressure.

614

If you keep bringing that

pressure down, water will boil

615

at a lower and lower temperature.

616

So with something like a heat pipe,

because of the water in there under

617

vacuum, your hand is warm enough

to evaporate the water in there.

618

So in that heat pipe, you

hold it, it's warm enough to

619

evaporate the water that's inside.

620

That water moves as a vapor hits

inside the narwhal drops its heat.

621

And then there's a wicking

structure on the walls.

622

So by capillary action, the

water goes back up, the walls re

623

evaporates, moves as a vapor hits,

and so it's a no moving parts heat

624

pump, it's a completely closed loop.

625

Heat pump and copper pipes like

that, what we call heat pipes, have

626

about a hundred times the thermal

conductivity of a normal piece of copper.

627

So they're extremely good at moving the

heat away from your hand continuously.

628

I love the nuances and the thought

put into your narwhal device.

629

It is like next level.

630

I love it.

631

other than exercise intolerance

as well as building volume,

632

potentially decreasing doms, can

you, share any other applications

633

in particular or for women's health?

634

Cuz basically everyone listening

to this podcast is a woman with an

635

autoimmune condition, any specific palm

cooling applications just for women.

636

Struggling with their health and

those health conditions can be vast.

637

Absolutely.

638

I think one area that we're really excited

about, but that has not been studied, so

639

we would love to partner with folks to do

this and understand it, is the application

640

of palm cooling for hot flashes.

641

So something that we all will.

642

Potentially experience in our lives.

643

your core body temperature

is increasing, That creates a

644

very uncomfortable condition.

645

It can happen during the day.

646

It can happen at night and night sweats

and be very, just very disturbing.

647

And we think that palm cooling

has a potential, it makes

648

sense that it could reduce the.

649

The severity of hot flash

symptoms as well as night sweats.

650

And I think what's really interesting

too about the narwhals and why we

651

would love to test this out if there

are women who are suffering from hot

652

flashes is because the way that Ariel

built the narwhal it, if you're not

653

touching the device, it's not really

losing its cooling power, if you will.

654

It's a very, very insulated thermal.

655

Reservoir.

656

And so if you're not touching it and

putting your heat into the, into the heat

657

pipes, into the device, it stays cool.

658

So you could fill these up at night,

before you go to bed, put them by

659

on your nightstand and if you are

waking up with a, a night sweat,

660

grab them and potentially reduce the,

the severity of that night sweat.

661

So I think both for hot flashes and,

and night sweats, it's a, there's

662

something that we would love to dig

into a little bit more there For sure.

663

Yeah.

664

And the nice sweats are typically from

women going through perimenopause or

665

menopause, which basically every woman on

the planet's eventually gonna go through.

666

why are you guys so

excited about palm cooling?

667

you guys connected over this,

funny sweet tweet and I think the

668

application is tremendous and the

research is just starting, right?

669

It'll be so, it would be so great

if there was like palm cooling

670

in menopause and double blind

randomized control studies on that.

671

But, why are you guys so

excited about palm cooling?

672

fundamentally, I found

fitness later in life.

673

I used to smoke a pack a day.

674

I used to drink too much.

675

And about 10, 12 years ago, discovered

this amazing world of fitness and

676

just threw myself, into it and.

677

Not only, what was really amazing

to me was that the stronger

678

that I got physically, the

stronger I got emotionally, the

679

stronger I got professionally.

680

I just, it like totally changed my life.

681

Fitness completely changed my life.

682

I became so much more confident and.

683

I was like, I want more women

to, to experience this, uh,

684

truly game changing for me.

685

And in that journey, I'm now 42 and I

don't think I'm anywhere close to my

686

potential, and I don't think most people

in their forties or fifties or sixties,

687

I think the, the definition of what.

688

Is possible for a, a human to do

physically has, we're not even close.

689

Right?

690

And so I, whether it's, for a long time

it was just how, how can I learn more

691

about fitness and nutrition and just

get myself into this amazing place?

692

How can I inspire others to not

be afraid of these heavy weights,

693

to not be afraid of a squat rack?

694

the, these types of things

are just super exciting to me.

695

And then to discover.

696

That there are protocols, there are

mechanisms that are natural and safe

697

that I can use to get even stronger.

698

It was like, sign me up.

699

and to me that is probably, it's just the

most exciting thing about palm cooling

700

is this, we don't know just how far.

701

Human performance can go.

702

We don't know how strong we

can be in our later years.

703

And I think that everybody

has the potential to live

704

this incredible, strong life.

705

Palm Cool can help like

take it up a notch.

706

Yeah, so that's what I'm so excited about.

707

And I know Ariel, you share that

same excitement, but I think you

708

have your own spin on that too.

709

Yeah.

710

I think for me, one thing's very

interesting is, There's a big theme of

711

thermal regulation that's been coming

out there as a big lever to pull in

712

the health and fitness world, right?

713

I'm 45, and I think as you grit older, if

you're into fitness and into optimizing

714

your health, you're looking for different

levers to pull, oh, my nutrition, oh my

715

sleep, all these different things, and.

716

Whether it's just from podcasts, making

it popular, thermal regulation's been

717

a big one right where you go, oh, when

we stress your thermal regulation,

718

be it with cold exposure for upping

your dopamine, being it for the health

719

benefits of heat exposure in as sauna.

720

This is a big emerging theme that

I think a lot of people who are

721

interested in their health, it's,

it's this nice lever you can pull that

722

has clear, benefits in many places.

723

So palm cooling falls into that realm.

724

And just like Evie said, I think

that's that safety and natural aspect.

725

Because yeah, as you get

older, you could go pull some

726

levers, which are nasty, right?

727

You could go, oh, I'm gonna take steroids.

728

Oh, I'm gonna go take

human growth hormone.

729

But there's a lot of us that have no

interest in doing those things, right.

730

What we'd rather do is what

are things I can do that are

731

natural, that are safe, that are

completely zero consequence, right?

732

So Palm Cooling's one of these things

where there's no downside to it.

733

You can't hurt yourself by palm cooling.

734

So it, it has that side of it that's like,

wow, this is something I can just do.

735

I can leverage this natural

piece of my physiology and do

736

better in my fitness goals.

737

So, That's very exciting.

738

I also, from a very personal take,

this literally started completely as a

739

passion project and was just, I like to

build, I like to tinker and r finding

740

out and realizing these different

technologies I could use to actually

741

make some portable device you actually

could take to the gym and works.

742

So that's very, very satisfying and.

743

we literally had narwhals being used by

N H L teams in the Stanley Cup playoffs.

744

That's kind of cool.

745

From a year ago, I was in my basement

whacking together plumbing parts to, a few

746

weeks ago there were literally world-class

athletes using this in their competition.

747

That's just a really neat feeling.

748

When you talk about levers to

pull is this idea of mindset.

749

When women are, especially for women first

getting into exercise first, getting into

750

picking up a weight, it can be very scary.

751

They worry about injury, they worry

about if they have an autoimmune

752

condition, creating a flareup, and

then to give them this tool to.

753

Really shift that mindset of

a fixed mindset or one that is

754

fearful to, one that is of growth

and really elevating their health.

755

So, cuz I know when I am hot and

sweaty and I'm like, oh God, I

756

do not wanna do this next set,

like there's a potential tool to.

757

Shift that mindset versus I think as

women who push, push, push, we think we

758

just have to from a mindset perspective,

push some more to get the volume

759

or hit the pr, get our next set in.

760

And I think it's, not only creating

physical transformation, but

761

also this mindset transformation.

762

thank you guys so much.

763

Where can people find you?

764

Where can people find the company and

where can people find the normals?

765

Yeah, we are@apexcoollabs.com.

766

We are on Instagram Apex.

767

Cool Labs as well.

768

We are on YouTube, Twitter, and always

happy to answer direct questions to, if

769

you wanna talk to us, you can DM us on

any of those channels and we'd be happy

770

to answer answer questions as well.

771

Yeah, and it is, you guys,

you guys are the company.

772

Yes.

773

Yeah.

774

When you TM us, you talk to us.

775

I love

776

It's funny we had some people,

early on, oh, can we talk to a rep?

777

You're talking to him.

778

Amazing.

779

Thank you guys much.

780

Such important work to put on

into the world, not only for

781

physical transformation, but

also for that mental component.

782

Thank you.