In this episode of Gospel Talks, George Binoka and Jeff Musgrave continue their discussion on the relationship between holiness and evangelism. Many Christians wonder whether living differently from the world actually matters when it comes to sharing Christ. The answer, according to Scripture, is a resounding yes—but not for the reasons many think.

Rather than focusing on external rules or religious performance, George and Jeff explore the deeper issue of heart transformation. True holiness is not about appearing better than everyone else; it is about abiding in Christ so His character naturally flows through us. As believers become more like Jesus, their love, joy, peace, kindness, and humility become a powerful testimony that gives credibility to the gospel.

The conversation also addresses why faithful Christians should expect opposition, how to speak truth without becoming self-righteous, how to love sinners without embracing sin, and why our lives should point people to God's glory instead of our own morality.

If you've ever struggled with balancing truth and grace or wondered how your daily walk impacts your witness, this episode will encourage and challenge you to keep your eyes fixed on Christ—the true source of lasting holiness and effective evangelism.

There's a question that has been stuck in my mind since last week.

And here's the question Will I love this world enough to be quite unlike this world

that I might point the people of this world towards a better one?

If you didn't listen to last week's episode,

this is a continuation of that discussion based on an article that Alistair Begg,

Pastor Alistair Begg, wrote. And we're talking about

The relationship of holiness to evangelism.

And it is one of the most needed topics out there.

Welcome everybody to Gospel Talks Podcast,

where we help Christians all around the world become more effective

in relational evangelism and discipleship.

My name is George Binocca, and with me today is Jeff Musgrave,

the author founder of The Exchange.

I'm so glad to have him. Jeff,

how are you doing?

I'm doing good today. It's it's ~ about as hot here as it is there.

I'm in Denver and you're in Phoenix and it's hot.

What's what's the temperature over there?

Well, we're only got about ninety one today.

~ we're we're on our way up still.

Okay. All right. Well, ~ I'm sorry.

I know you're like in a hundred and ten.

It's

hard for me to feel bad for anybody when they talk about heat.

So it's just it is what it is.

I need to pray about that. ~ well,

Yeah.

hey, we're continuing our series here.

I guess it's gonna be two parts on this question that Alistair Begg asks,

and we're kind of picking up where we left off last week.

We're talking about that passage where Peter mentions our conduct among believers.

~

And and I guess here's the question coming out of that discussion where

we left off last week is does our daily lifestyle as believers actually affect

our credibility of our witness ~ in a good way,

in a bad way? In what way does it affect the credibility of our witness?

Yeah. And you know, when I hear Alistair Beggs question,

the phrase that goes through my brain,

because it's a little easier for me to remember,

is I need to dare to be different so that I can make a difference.

And yes, I I genuinely believe that the way I behave,

the way I live in this world is going to impact people around me.

I mean, if I'm around someone who is super

rude and trying to crowd in front of me in a line and you know talking loud

and making a nuisance of themselves.

I I it it irritates me. I want to get away from that person.

that's the negative. the positive is when I'm around someone who's kind

and is is generous toward me in terms of how what they say,

what they do, they're kind and they're thoughtful.

they they're loving other people around them.

It makes me want to be with them.

It makes me want to be close to them.

And and I think that's just a practical answer.

Jesus said it this way: By this shall all people know that

you are my disciples if you have love one for another.

And obviously that's talking about love between believers,

but Jesus makes it very clear.

That love is the distinguishing mark of genuine Christianity.

~ when I love God with all of my heart,

soul, and mind, when I love my neighbor as myself,

I was walking through my neighborhood today and waved at one of my neighbors that

I don't know, but I know that they live right around the corner from me.

And I I thought to myself, God's called me to love that man,

to love that

Mm.

man as much as I love myself. And

Hm.

You know, when we do that, it's going to impact people,

it's going to to ~ help them. ~ Jesus said it a different way in

his high priestly prayer. ~ he he asked that God would make believers

unified. And he said, just like you and I are unified,

God. So he's talking about this perfect unity that is supernatural,

that is beyond human capacity.

And he says, that.

They also may be in us, so that the world may believe that you sent me.

So literally, the way I live in connection with other believers

is going to literally be a proof positive for the reality.

In verse 21, that's in chapter 17 of that high priestly prayer,

he said it this way: so that the world may know that you sent me and love them even

as

as you loved me. And so the way we live literally shows the world that that

Jesus has changed us. And that's so yeah,

I there's no way it can't make a difference one way or the other,

either positively

Mm-hmm.

or negatively.

Mm-hmm. So I guess then the question is can I be faithful in sharing

the gospel and live no differently than the unbelievers next door?

~ is that is that formulation possible?

Yeah. And and I I actually feel like this is a bit of a hard

one because the question itself tends to emphasize the externals.

You know, I'm supposed to dress a certain way,

go certain places and don't go other places.

~ the f the fact is, now I'm not saying none of that is important.

But Jesus seems to be focusing on the internal transformation that

changes everything, including the external.

So maybe we could say it this way:

could you imagine having a neighbor that is just filled with love?

They're joyful. They are always at peace.

they they are patient with you,

~ they are.

~ gentle in the way they behave,

they're they're always on good behavior,

they're treating people kindly,

they're they're living ~ with this thoughtfulness of other people they're under

self-control. Wouldn't wouldn't that neighbor be someone that you would want

to be around and and I I'm thinking rather than looking at the negative could

I live just like them because there is

There is a mindset that says I have to be like them in order to be able

to connect with them. I I think that Jesus is letting us know.

No, there is a fruit. By the way,

that was just going through the fruit of the Holy Spirit from

~ Galatians chapter five. That's what that's what that ~ loving

and joyful and peaceful and gentle and good and kind,

all of that is just the fruit that the Holy Spirit produces in genuine,

spirit-filled believers.

And I think if we focus on those kinds of differences,

it will show up in our externals,

but

Mm.

but it's those internals that genuinely make a person an attractive person that

is gonna help us to be able to connect with unbelievers and teach them about

the Jesus that's making the difference in my own life.

Hmm. You know, I guess playing right off of that,

~ one of the things Peter says in that passage is people may speak against

you as evildoers. there there seems to be opposition against Christians,

especially because sometimes of our lifestyle or because of our witness.

Why should Christians expect opposition instead of acceptance,

even when they do it the Bible way?

Yeah. ~ I heard someone talking about this yesterday in a secular realm,

and they were just talking about the fact that when people are bitter

and angry and wanting i i and you know,

who knows what all they want, but bitter and angry and

Just just having those cravings of other better.

when they see people who are not that way,

who seem to have genuine peace,

that seem to have a a lifestyle that brings joy,

~ that seems to be in loving relationships with people,

because everybody wants that. then it ~ the jealousy drives them to hatred.

Jesus said it this way.

That the world hated him because his teachings,

his sinless life exposed their empty,

evil life, if if that makes sense.

Mm. Yeah.

So Jesus

told us to expect that. And ~ frankly,

our commitment to live like Jesus puts us in the crosshairs of people

who are filled with hate and people who are filled with anger and people

who are filled with jealousy and people who are filled with.

wanting, craving, desiring. And there's nothing we can do to change that.

They they hated Jesus so much they had to kill him.

And we've watched that with believers.

I I can't help but it in some part believe that that Charlie Kirk lived

the the life that other people saw as genuine and real and the only

way to silence him was to kill him.

Yeah. I think if you're gonna be a lover of the truth,

the world will hate you. it will hate you.

kind of spinning off a little bit,

changing ~ a little bit direction.

You had mentioned this just two questions ago.

You were talking about internal change versus externalities.

You know, there's a tension between being judgmental,

and Christians often get accused of being judgmental.

There's a tension between that.

and being genuinely biblically holy.

What's the balance of all that?

Yeah.

Yeah. Well remember,

We are truth givers. That's part of loving people.

We're gonna we love them enough to tell them the truth.

we we're not gonna lie to them.

I I watched parents lie to their children about things because they want

to manipulate them. And I'm I just think there there's got to be

a better way because w children need to be able to grow up believing their parents

tell them the truth. so

When we tell people the truth about the sin that's destroying them,

Hm.

sin is dangerous. It's it's destructive.

And it's not just a matter of God doesn't want us to do it.

It's that the wages of sin, the consequent of sin,

is death. Sin earns, brings death.

And so when we tell people the truth about their life,

that's going to be considered.

judgmental. It's it I I really am not judging them.

I'm just simply telling the truth from the word of God.

Mm.

And

and yet there is a element in which it is understood as being judgmental.

I I will say I think probably the attitude God wants us to carry

is even when someone throws judgmentalism into our face and

And is furious and angry at us,

that

Hm.

just like when Stephen was having literal stones hurled at him,

he fell to his knees and he prayed,

Lord, don't hold this sin against them.

And there there needs to be a genuine mercy,

a genuine spirit of forgiveness.

That rides in a believer's heart and recognizes that's not their biggest problem.

Their biggest problem is they need Jesus.

And I can't get angry at them because they've yelled at me,

because they've been rude to me,

~ because they've called me names.

I I have to look beyond that and see their bigger need.

And I think that's what Stephen was doing.

He he recognized these people were killing him because of what he told them.

But he still wanted the best for them.

You know, a as you're saying all that,

it's kinda one of the things that's hitting me is,

you know, it was said about Jesus,

he wouldn't bruise a reed. You know,

he he wouldn't he hi hi when he when people just I think some of

the responses we see Jesus giving to the Pharisees,

we think he's yelling or, you know,

whatever. And yes, his words are strong,

but I don't think they were communicated in a way

That was hateful. I don't I don't think you could ever accuse Jesus of hate speech.

But people hated his speeches because they were full of truth.

And I think one of the reasons that people think we are judgmental

as Christians is because we are speaking God's truth.

And in fact, it is judgment against them.

But it's God's judgment coming out of my lips.

It's not my opinion. I'm just communicating the truth.

And so the but because you are a bearer of that message.

The world will hate you. I mean,

Jesus said this. He said this to disciples.

If you're gonna go out and give the same message I'm giving right now,

the way they're treating me, they're gonna treat you.

And most of those apostles were crucified or died and martyred the way Jesus was.

And so it's it's the one of those things that comes with the territory

of being a truth teller, but I love your formula.

I I'm convinced somebody needs to write a book about it.

Truth plus time plus love. And I think that time piece

One of the things you've talked about before is so,

so important because it's love and truth over time that makes a difference.

We don't know how much time somebody needs,

but when you're willing to keep giving time,

I mean, there is there there there can be an incredible result in the hands

of God with his grace. ~ now w now what is Yeah,

Can I interrupt you just a second?

yeah.

I

I I just as you're saying that,

a story came to my mind about someone who had a experience with a unkind unbeliever.

I mean, this was a person who ~ was ~ an an atheist and shouted so ~ who

Yeah.

eventually got saved because there was some internal pain

and internal questioning that allowed them

to do an exchange Bible study with someone.

And I I I think

Mm.

it's just a good you were talking about the the time and truth.

And I really feel like the whole formula ~ is undergirded by that tool,

the exchange bible study, because it allows for both the time and the truth.

Yep. Yep. It's why I love our resour it's why I love the relational approach.

It's like we've said before, and I know we've said it a million times,

but we'll say it a million times more.

The

Yeah.

relationship is the platform that buys you the time.

And so ~ it's why it's so important.

Now the next question w ~ I would ask is what does it mean to identify with people

in their need without identifying with them in their

Sin. You know, my friend is depressed and he drinks.

So should I drink so I can help him with depression?

You know, that kind of thing.

Yeah, no, I and I I I I actually feel like sometimes people who think that

way are are being generous in their spirit.

D you know, there

Mm-hmm.

there may be some who are on purpose trying to find a way to to live that lifestyle,

but I think at most people are are are trying to be generous.

I want to identify as much as I can.

But I think Jude gives us a beautiful picture.

Of of what that looks like. He's ~ summing up the short little book of Jude,

in which he is talking about contending for the faith.

I mean, it's this is basically being a truth teller in the face of opposition.

And in Jude 23, he's he's encouraging them to reach out to others.

And he says, he says, save others ~ by snatching them out of the fire.

To others show mercy with fear,

hating the garments stained by the flesh.

And so it's it's it's like I am diving in with both feet,

but I'm doing so out of love to rescue,

not of any kind of I'm enamored by the sinfulness.

And in other words,

Mm.

the he it says we we need to love the sinner,

hate the sin.

Hm.

Because sin is destroying the sinner.

it

do you know what I mean? It's it's not just that it will destroy me if

I get into it, but it's destroying this sinner.

And I I live with the genuine hate of what's happening to them.

Therefore I have to hate the sin that's causing it.

Hmm. You know, one of the things though that can happen is somebody just listens

to your answer right there. They could they can pendulum swing and they can go,

Well, then it's all about my morality.

It's all about my holiness. It's all about the differences between me and them.

And some people just ignore where we should have some commonality.

So, and I think that comes down to this question.

why is it important that our good works

don't point to our own morality,

but ultimately point people to God's glory.

And and how do we make that happen?

Yeah, yeah. I think the that the simple answer is it's all about him.

It's all about him. But the the key I'm another kind of axiom that we live by,

our my definition of relational evangelism is knowing Jesus intimately gives

me the ability to show him effectively so that I can tell his gospel boldly

to people.

So there's the three steps in my mind.

And the first step is to know him.

And anytime I see any kind of standards morality coming from me,

I've missed it. I

Hmm. Hmm.

I was telling you about this quote that I read recently.

It was ~ a man who was being praised for being good.

being different from everybody else.

And he says, no, no, no, no. I'm I'm simple.

I'm selfish. But God's saving hand is on me.

That's all. I mean any anything that's different about me that is good came from

God. And so we could never point to you need to be moral like I'm moral

so that you can be happy like I'm happy because I can't even be moral.

The only way I can be moral is if I have a rescuer.

I have to have the hand of the rescuer on me and and that's it.

I I can't do anything without him.

Therefore I can't cause anyone else to want anything besides him.

So let's say there's somebody listening right now who realizes,

you know, I've slowly become more like the world than like Christ.

Where does that person begin?

Gazing into the face of Jesus.

We love him because he first loved us.

The only way I can ever be holy if it's his holiness living through me.

The only way I can ever be kind,

the only way I can ever be gentle.

I mean, all of the things that God wants us to be,

he provides for us in himself.

Mm.

And so the only way I can ever be like that him is to gaze upon him.

Now, there's lots of ways that we can gaze on Jesus.

And maybe one of these days we'll have to have a podcast about this concept.

some is just seeing Jesus and everything.

When I look at the world and I think,

why are they doing this to me?

I'm looking at the wrong place.

Mm.

If I look

at Jesus and recognize He is allowing this to happen for my good,

it's it

Mm.

it changes my whole perspective.

And so I'm not just seeing the ugliness of the world,

I'm seeing Jesus using even this to help me.

I I think probably going to church,

keeping ourselves in the assembly,

listening to the preaching of the word of God,

those things are critical. And over and over I hear people saying,

I'm really struggling with my Christian life,

and you recognize they're they're in church once a month.

And and

Mm.

I mean I'm

Once a month is better than that at all,

but I'm I I believe

Right.

if you will put yourself under the preaching of the God's word

and under the fellowship of God's people,

it will change you. I mean, that's why God

Yes. Yes.

calls us to be together with the believers.

And and

Mm-hmm.

first and foremost.

I can't start any day without centering my life on him in his word.

I I have to have him. I don't read my Bible because it's what I'm supposed to do.

It literally is a lifeline for me.

It's I just I I have to have that.

This morning I had to get up early.

My wife was in the hospital overnight and I had to get

Mm.

I had to get there and and pick her up early.

And so I got up way earlier than I usually do,

made coffee, grabbed her a cup of coffee and and took it to her.

After I got home, the first thing I did was sit down and spend my time with

the Lord. I can't I can't do life without that.

And frankly, neither can anyone else.

Hmm.

We we

if we're not centering our focus on him,

then we're gonna be finding ourselves

not just drifting into the world,

but drifting into ourself. Our selfishness is what draws us into sin.

And we have to protect ourselves from ourselves through our savior.

Hmm. I I I love that. I love that.

you know, and and the the statement you made even earlier that that goes hand

in hand with that, that really still ~ is resonating with me is that holiness

is not about following a list of rules,

it's about becoming like him. It's like,

you know, like you said, a husband and a wife,

like a wife pleasing her husband.

And

Mm.

so ~ there are things you do out of love.

to be like somebody because you admire them,

because they are good. they're not done out of obligation.

But that being said, what are some practical ways believers can cultivate

a heart that delights in that holiness,

instead of merely tolerating the concept,

if you know what I mean?

Yes, yes. Well, I think you said it.

It's not delighting in holiness.

It's delighting in him. ~

Mm.

i i when I delight in him and I desire him to delight in me,

I do z I not just I mean, he loves me.

Nothing I can ever do can cause him not to love me.

But I can bless him with my life.

I can cause I c but the way I behave,

I can cause him to smile upon me.

I have

Yeah.

multiple grandchildren and ~ my little ones specifically.

Hm.

when when my grandson watches his sister ~ hurt by something

and he runs over and puts his arm around her and hugs her.

I I

Mm.

loved him way, way before that happened.

But when he does that, it brings a smile to my face

That is, I just am enjoying that moment.

And and frankly, I that's the kind of life I want to have with Jesus.

I I want him to look at me, loving others,

and and just he can't help but break into a smile because I see what he's doing,

and that's making me so happy.

And that's that's the difference that God wants me to be.

And and that literally when I'm delighting myself in him,

I don't I I want to be different so that he can be pleased and smile upon me.

Wow, I love that. That that is so convicting.

Yeah. we may we do. We we you know,

people think holiness is about how you look.

It's not. It's about how you are.

And that really comes out in your love towards God and your love towards people.

And what we do as Christians, we say all the right things and we wear

all the right clothes and you know,

we have all the right Bibles and

All that kind of stuff. But then we treat our brothers in Christ with disdain

and we hurt them and we give up on them and you know,

we do all these things and it's so important to love and delight Jesus

by loving the way he loved. He loved Judas to the very end.

And ~ I'm still amazed by that verse in John.

so if you could leave our listeners with one challenge this week from first Peter

two, eleven to twelve.

What would it be? That's a hard one,

but what would it be? Just one.

Well I I'm

I'm actually gonna quote something in the book of John to be able

to answer the question. So it's you know,

it it in this discussion in which Jesus calls us to be different.

I I have to acknowledge I can't

Mm.

do that. I am not good enough.

I

Hm.

I I I will fail. Jesus said

I am the vine, you are the branches.

Whoever abides in me and I in him,

he it is that bears much fruit.

For without me, you can do nothing.

And if if I am going to live a holy life,

if I am going to live a life that causes Jesus to smile,

I'm only going to be able to do it with him.

And so I

That phrase, I am the vine, you are the branches.

I s I do it this way in my mind because I'm talking to him.

Lord, I'm the branch, you're the vine.

~ you know, you you ~ need to draw me close,

teach me to abide, because apart from you,

I can do nothing. And so that

Mm-hmm.

that's the key. This is not about you and me being better than.

anybody else. I'm I'm living different only because my focal point is

him and he's calling me to a different life.

And and and it just so happens that it impacts the people around me.

Hmm. I love that. ~ I love that so much.

you know, this is a this this was a very convicting is such a helpful

way to talk about holiness and and takes it past the externalities

to the harder stuff. And you see that in in the Sermon on the Mount,

Jesus saying it's not about this,

it's about this, you know, and so ~ I I just love the way

The letter of

the law is actually pretty easy.

I mean, just

Yes.

tell me, tell me what to do. Let me check my list.

It's it's the spirit of the law that's hard.

Well and and the letter of the law i is an oasis i if you're looking

for performance and you're gonna brag about it.

I mean it i it it is a great target rich environment.

But when you're talking about the internalities,

nobody sees that and there's nothing to brag about.

And you're pointing to God and it's a work of grace and has you know,

you have to cooperate with God,

but really you can't do it by yourself and you know,

Paul talks about that how he doesn't do what he wants to do and but he

What he wants to do, he doesn't do.

And and so w what you're talking about is is that whole heart of what Jesus

was getting at. And ~ it's it it's resonating with me.

It's can there are things that it's convicting me about.

So I appreciate that. ~ well to those of you listening,

thank you so much for sticking with us.

And ~ I I just pray that this would sink deep in your hearts,

that it would make a difference in your evangelism and in your life as a believer.

And as we've always said, pray with us.

This is something we beg you to do.

Pray with us as we pray to the Lord of the harvest that he would send forth

laborers. Because the harvest is plenteous.

There are so many people that are in need.

But the laborers are few. And ~ don't sit on the sidelines with

the most wonderful message and news in the whole world and keep it to yourself.

Get out there and take risks for the sake of the gospel.

If this was helpful to you, subscribe if you haven't already.

Share it with somebody that you believe would be encouraged by it.

We love you guys. We'll see you next week.