Lorraine Monteagut PhD, is a queer Latine astrologer and tarot reader and author of Brujas: The Magic and Power of Witches of Color, featured in Axios, NPR, Telemundo, Cosmopolitan, People en Espanol, Bustle, Book Riot, the Witch Wave, and elsewhere. She is the creator of Witchy Heights, a community space for practical magic based in St. Petersburg, Florida, through which she offers one-on-one readings, private parties, classes and a coven membership.

On this episode, we discuss:

• Lorraine's spiritual background and experiences growing up as a child of Cuban and Columbian immigrants
• That sticky place where scientific answers bump up against spiritual and mystical experiences, and how we might hold both as valid ways of seeing and experiencing the world
• Her grandmother's background in Espiritismo, and how this sparked the seeking and research that eventually became the subject matter for Lorraine's book, Brujas.
• Lorraine's understanding of the Sacred Feminine, and why it's important that we experiment with and embrace imperfect language and definitions for our spiritual seeking within a patriarchal context
• The importance of spiritual activism, and why our spiritual enhancement should help us reach out and create deeper connections with others

Here are a few notes related to this episode:

• Lorraine's book is Brujas: The Magic and Power of Witches of Color
• You can learn more about her at her website, https://www.witchyheights.com/, and you can follow her on Instragram @witchyheights.
• Lorraine mentioned the work of the late Gloria Anzaldua, a celebrated American scholar.

And here are a few more details about this show and my work:

• If you’d like to know whose ancestral tribal lands you currently reside on, you can look up your address here: https://native-land.ca/
• You can also visit the Coalition of Natives and Allies for more helpful educational resources about Indigenous rights and history.
• Please – if you love this podcast and/or have read my book, please consider leaving me a review, and thank you for supporting my work!
• You can watch this and other podcast episodes at the Home to Her YouTube Channel: https://www.youtube.com/@hometoher
• For more Sacred Feminine goodness and to stay up to date on all episodes, please follow me on Instagram: @hometoher.
• To dive into conversation about the Sacred Feminine, join the Facebook group: https://www.facebook.com/groups/hometoher 
• To go deeper in your Sacred Feminine explorations, check out the course offerings via Home to Her Academy: www.hometoheracademy.com 
• And to read about the Sacred Feminine, check out my award-winning book Home to Her: Walking the Transformative Path of the Sacred Feminine (Womancraft Publishing), available wherever you buy your books!. If you've read it, your reviews on Goodreads and Amazon are greatly appreciated! 

Hello, and welcome to Home to Her,

the podcast that's dedicated to

2

reclaiming the lost and stolen

wisdom of the sacred feminine.

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I'm your host, Liz Kelly, and on

each episode, we explore her stories

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and myths, her spiritual principles,

and most importantly, what this

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wisdom has to offer us right now.

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Thanks for being here.

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Let's get started.

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Okay.

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Liz Childs Kelly: Hey everybody, this

is Liz, joining you as usual from

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you can go check it out after this.

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I think that's all I got

for you on that front.

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So let's get on with the show.

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This is another good one.

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Okay.

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So I've got another

author on the show today.

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I get to talk to the most amazing people.

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This is so great.

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And I just totally devoured her

book and she writes with such

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heart and bravery and integrity.

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And also from a deeply intersectional

place is really inspiring to me.

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And so I'm just really honored

that she's with me today.

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Dr.

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Lorraine Monteagut is a queer, Latine

astrologer and tarot reader, and author

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of Brujas, the magic and power of witches

of color, which has been featured in

68

Axios, NPR, Telemundo, Cosmopolitan,

People en Español, bustle, a book

69

riot, the witch wave, and elsewhere.

70

She is the creator of Witchy

Heights, a community space for

71

practical magic based in St.

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Petersburg, Florida, through which she

offers one on one readings, private

73

parties, classes, and a coven membership.

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And she is joining us

today from her home in St.

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Petersburg, Florida.

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Lorraine, thank you so

much for being here.

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It's an honor to have you.

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Thank

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Lorraine Monteagut: you so much.

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I am ecstatic to be here.

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Thank you.

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Liz Childs Kelly: Yay.

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All right.

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Well listeners to the show know

I always start in the same place.

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I hope y'all aren't

getting bored with this.

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Hopefully you're not.

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You're still listening.

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So that's good.

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But I love to hear from guests

about your spiritual background.

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And I like to hear that

because I'm curious.

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I just like to hear people talk about it.

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But I also am curious about,

you know, what that is.

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If there were things that you had to let

go of that were not serving you, if there

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were things that kind of informed you

and, and got you to where you are now.

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So I would love to start

there if that's okay with you.

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Lorraine Monteagut:

Yeah, that's wonderful.

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That's, that's where I

always start as well.

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That's what the impetus for all

of the work has been actually.

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So that's, that's a great first question.

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So my spiritual background is, you

know, originally from my my parents

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immigrated from Cuba and Columbia.

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So that's.

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That's where I eventually returned,

quote unquote, reclaimed, returned to,

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but really it started very very kind

of, you know milquetoast, you know,

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it's just the way most people grow up

with spirituality in this country is

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it wasn't really the primary focus of

my family's life in my early childhood.

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We were really Encouraged to go

towards education and personal

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development and, you know, what

we wanted to be when we grew up.

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So, that was just something

in the background.

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We did have, there were little reminders

of things that came before we assimilated

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and moved to the United States.

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There were altars in the corners

of my You know, grandmother's room.

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They're, you know, my aunts and uncles,

they did some stuff that I kind of

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was aware of about, you know, the

things that they would do in their

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prayers that were a little different

than what I saw at church when we

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occasionally went very occasionally.

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So yeah, it was, we were all kind of,

you know, just Plugging along our lives.

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It wasn't really a big question besides

the, you know, really common markers

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of Catholicism, the, we, so we were,

you know, technically Catholics.

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So I did the first communion

and the confirmation.

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And it was all just like these things

you take off your list, just like school.

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It wasn't any different.

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Though I did have a huge curiosity for it.

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So as I was in these schools CCD,

we called them, they were like

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the afterschool Catholic programs.

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On Wednesdays hump day, it was, it was

just like such a slog after school to

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go to these things, because I was truly

interested in always have been a student

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of religion and wanted to know more and

asked so many questions during these.

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Teachings, but the teachers just shut

down anything that was like curious in the

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direction of like outside of their dogma.

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So, you know, anything that challenge

challenged, you know, the, the

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typical tenets of who Jesus was and

what, how we worship and all that

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stuff was kind of brushed aside and I

quickly lost interest for that reason.

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I might have been the most astute,

like, dedicated student, if it weren't

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for the fact that they just obviously

were, you know, indoctrinating us.

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And I was kind of aware of that from

the moment I started on that path.

137

So I just did it kind of grudgingly just

like school, the, the parts, the subjects

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you don't like, you know and just like

the subjects I didn't like in school,

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it wasn't that there was no curiosity.

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It was that, that that

curiosity wasn't nurtured.

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By those teachers.

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So I think, you know, as a suburban

kid in Miami, my upbringing was pretty

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average when it comes to spirituality.

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So the moment that changed it

all for me was when I started in

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adolescence, seeing strange things

in my room and that's dun dun dun.

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Liz Childs Kelly: I know.

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And now you, and now you just gotta

keep going because we can't just like,

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Breeze past that and, and, Mm-Hmm.

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I mean, you, you, you write about

that a a lot in your book, but Yeah.

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, so talk to us about talk to us about that.

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Yeah.

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Lorraine Monteagut: Yeah.

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And you know, now it's, you know,

commonly known as sleep paralysis.

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I would say that that's like the

general category that this falls under.

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It's that sensation of being paralyzed

in bed, but you're fully awake.

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Your mind is actually fully awake,

but your body hasn't yet been

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released from the REM cycle paralysis.

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And so in those moments I would

see these visitors in my room and

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some of them were very menacing in

the corners, these dark shadows.

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I was, you know, filled with so much fear

in those moments when this would happen.

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And I had no idea it was a common

experience until later in life.

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Actually, every time it would happen,

I would kind of forget right away.

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Cause you know, I'm a kid and I got

other things to think about, you know,

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just my friends and the books I'm

reading and whatever being outside.

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So as soon as I would wake up, like,

as far as I can tell, like looking

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back on this, I don't think I dwelled

on any of it, but it was occurring

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fairly frequently in adolescence and

it continued into my early twenties.

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So, and mid twenties

and then late twenties.

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And it just it would come back.

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With full force at certain

periods of my life.

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I think it was the periods where I was

most stressed out or least centered.

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But it definitely started in adolescence,

which is the first time that you feel, I

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think, completely out of whack with your

body, things are just shifting and you

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have so many questions and no answers.

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And yeah, I was just

experiencing this stuff.

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And the only time I ever Asked

anybody about it was my grandmother.

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When I was maybe 15 or something.

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I asked her because she was a spirit

medium in Cuba and she had let go of

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her practice when we moved to this

country and never talked about it,

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just kept it under lock and key.

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And just like many Cubans of her

generation, the first generation

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to immigrate to this country, a

lot of them don't speak of the

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before times they didn't speak about

the times before the revolution.

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They're just all about making a new

life here and also pushing education

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and career and all that kind of stuff.

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Capitalism.

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So, you know, in line with that, when I

came to her and said, you know, Abuelita.

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I'm seeing these things in my room.

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I know that you've spoken to

ghosts, you know, are they

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ghosts who want to speak with me?

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Is there anything I can do?

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Like they are scaring me.

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And she just said, close

your eyes and pray on the way.

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Pray to Jesus.

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Right.

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So it was, it was kind of like that

dismissive quality that I found in

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the teachers and I was so disappointed

because I thought, you know, like a lot

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of kids do, like I was on the brink of

some magical door that would open for me.

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And then I would get all these

answers and I would understand where

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I was in the place of all of this.

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And if I had any powers, you know,

you, you just want to have powers

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when you're a teenager, right?

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So, cause you're, you feel so

powerless and in so many other ways.

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And so it was really disappointing.

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But I did actually take

her advice and do that.

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And pushed it away and pushed away and

filtered it out as much as I could.

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It wasn't until many years later when they

would return with full force in my late

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20s that I started to really ask myself

what this was and investigate it in within

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my larger work as an academic which was

like the little seed that led me here.

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Okay.

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So what, what did my grandmother

practice before she came to this country?

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What, what was that?

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And, and I learned about Espiritismo,

which is a brand of spiritism that

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was very parallel to the kind of

spiritism that was happening here

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in the turn of the 20, 20th century.

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And you know, the parlor seances, that

kind of thing, which has just, you

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know, influenced me my whole life.

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I'm sitting in parlor, kind of, that I

would imagine was like, kind of looks like

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that Victorian spiritualist parlor thing.

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You know, I've always wanted to

honor my grandmother in that way,

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even though she gave it up herself.

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Liz Childs Kelly: Well, yes.

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And I was going to say, it sounds

like you and I feel like this is sort

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of a theme that I want to touch on.

225

So maybe we'll go there or not

right now, but it sounds like you.

226

So you called it sleep paralysis in the

beginning, but now you're also tying

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it back to this, you know, this thing

that's part of your lineage, right?

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And so I mean, how do you think

about those encounters now?

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How do you understand them in this moment?

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Lorraine Monteagut: It's so interesting.

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I'm of a divided mind about it, you

know to this day, I don't quite know.

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But I, my, you know, scientific and

academic mind says, okay, this is

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a thing that you have found since

then happens to a lot of people.

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Actually, it's super common.

235

You know my mom has an undiagnosed

narcolepsy that she has suffered her

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whole life and she would like fall asleep

at the wheel and like she would wake up

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with night terrors and screaming and I

am biologically very similar to her so

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and I find that I am like a very sleepy

person and kind of fall into like these

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little trance states very easily fall

asleep very easily and hallucinate and

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see visions, you know, very very easily.

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And that's all part of

the, you know, diagnostic.

242

If you were to look up like narcolepsy

and sleep paralysis related to that,

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that's all part of that language.

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And we tend to see very similar things

across cultures, which is interesting.

245

So that's the part that's like,

there's got to be something for me

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that is mystical about all this.

247

You know, knowing that it's an observable

phenomenon or not, not observable,

248

but it's a cataloged phenomenon that

happens to a lot of people doesn't

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take away from the mystery of it.

250

For me, you know, it just means that

it's even more mysterious because

251

so many people are experiencing it.

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So what is that?

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And so you know, so the spiritual

part of me is, you know, just

254

attracted to this idea that it is some

sort of thread to the past in some

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way that I don't quite understand.

256

And that my grandmother figured out a

way to harness it and communicate and

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be a bridge between what she was seeing

and experiencing and and the people

258

who came to her and I never took the

route of training that, you know, I

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there's all sorts of mediumship training

that you go through, but that's just

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never been accessible to me again.

261

She closed that door for me and then

didn't quite know how to get there.

262

So I found that I do that

work in my creative work.

263

I do it with the sessions that I

do for people in intuitive ways

264

through astrology and tarot.

265

And I do that for myself with writing.

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So there is this sense that like something

unlocks and kind of goes through me

267

while I can't explain what it is,

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it is there.

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Liz Childs Kelly: Yeah.

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I love that.

271

And I was also thinking, as you were

talking about you know, just your role as

272

an academic and yet I wouldn't describe

the book that you wrote as very academic.

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It doesn't feel academic to me.

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It feels really accessible,

which I, I love.

275

I'll also sit down and

read all the academic books

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because I'm a geek like that.

277

Yeah.

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But I guess I was thinking about how Even

the assumption that like just wanting to

279

challenge the assumption that like science

and academia have to sit over here, and

280

mysticism and spirituality need to sit

over here, and that these two things

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can't actually interweave, or shouldn't,

or even that, like let's say there's

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a scientific reason, like the sleep

paralysis thing that you're talking about,

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which I've experienced as well, And, and

also it's like, what is going on here?

284

And then we do my Googling and

then there's like sort of this

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deflated feeling of like Yeah.

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It's just a thing.

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It's just a biological function.

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You mean I'm not special?

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I'm not special.

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Wow.

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But there's the question.

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It's like, what if it's both?

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Like it's to your point, it's an

observable phenomenon and in a

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different culture, in a different

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lens, it might be understood

completely differently.

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So it's almost like the conclusion

of this happens to everybody.

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So it's not that big a deal is it

feels, it feels problematic to me,

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or just like an, an overreach of

what the data actually says, which

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is this happens to a lot of people.

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Lorraine Monteagut: Yeah, I never

understood that idea that because it's

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common, it's not important, you know and

I think that's just the way, especially

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in America that we're culturally

oriented is that what's important is

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the, the thing that is rare, or the

person that is, you know, so out of

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this world special unique abilities.

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But really, we all retain or you

know, we all express unique abilities

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in just mundane ways, I think.

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And we're all super

creative people, I believe.

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And these things we have in common

are super powerful and the way that

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we can organize with each other and,

connect and that's extremely powerful.

310

So I don't want to sound

like a conspiracy theorist.

311

I'm not, I'm not like there's the system

that like has a consciousness that

312

wants to keep you down, but structurally

speaking, institutionally speaking, yeah,

313

it's not to the benefit of a few who.

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Who, you know, get rich off of us that we

all, you, we realize our collective power.

315

And I do think that there is something

about this phenomenon since it is so

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common that is like linked to like

under the surface, subconscious, you

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know, collective power that we share.

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And if we could just connect over

it, I think it would be something.

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You know, the work I've done so far

is my small kind of gesture, my small

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movement toward connecting us somehow.

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And yeah, I totally agree with you

that there isn't, shouldn't be a

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separation between what is considered

science and what is considered magic.

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And I think that if you look at

the history of science, we've often

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called things magic before we had,

you know, laws to ascribe to them.

325

We often reach to magic to understand

possibility and like quantum physics is

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like all magic right now, you know So,

I think that they're inextricably linked

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and I've gotten into super intense fights

about this with atheist men usually so

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Liz Childs Kelly: Yeah, well and I'm

I want to I want to go back to this

329

because I want to talk about, I'm always

really curious on what it's like to be an

330

academic exploring topics of spirituality

in a way that I don't think you do this

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in a way that feels putting it under the

microscope or analyzing it to the point

332

of like, there's almost a way where I feel

like Okay, you, you call me out on this

333

since you're the PhD and not me, but I

feel like there's a way in which we can

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pick something apart to understand it and

in the process, like, kill it or just take

335

the life force that's there out of it.

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And so I am really curious about

like, what's that experience

337

been like for you as an academic?

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And I don't actually know what your PhD

is in, but you know, I'm going to assume

339

it's in the route of what you wrote about.

340

Like what that's been like to kind of

explore that area of spirituality and then

341

also hold the lens of, of an academic and

to do that within an academic setting.

342

Lorraine Monteagut: Yeah, my PhD is

in communication and I am a super

343

weirdo that came out of left field and

transferred from a different department

344

that was actually, it was geography

actually, which made a little more sense.

345

The geography I was approaching, you

know it from a spiritual lens, like

346

the, the geography of spiritualities and

especially the Afro Caribbean diaspora.

347

And I never let that thread go.

348

But the department I was in tanked and was

gobbled up by the environmental sciences

349

and then a hard line was drawn between

what's science and what isn't and I had to

350

really like change everything I was doing

to be able to fit into this new schema.

351

And so I defected.

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I was like, I can't stay here.

353

I'm not like a, you know,

quantitative person.

354

Again, I don't want to analyze

things to death, like you said,

355

and I think that's what I had

would have had to do if I'd stayed.

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I found a professor who was

teaching a class about love.

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And I was just super attracted

to that class and his style.

358

And so I I went over there and was

like, can I make what I'm doing fit?

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And he's like, yeah, we'll figure it out.

360

It's communication.

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So, and my background

is in communications.

362

So, you know, there was a little

bit of a connection, but honestly,

363

I was just going to write about

what I was going to write about.

364

And I was, I'm just kind of

that hardheaded kind of person.

365

And so I don't ultimately didn't

fit into academia in a way that

366

allowed me to stay long term.

367

So I for, you know, I forwent

the whole process of the tenure

368

track search and all that stuff.

369

Well, I say that, but I did try a

little bit and was rejected a lot.

370

So I, I just found that that wasn't

really for me because it is so

371

narrow because you do have to devote

yourself to a paradigm that has been

372

assigned to you as a discipline.

373

And I just never saw the point of

that, you know, what I was working

374

on cross so many disciplines.

375

And there are cross disciplinary

programs out there that I

376

would have probably fit better.

377

That's neither here nor there.

378

That's a topic for another day.

379

But you know, I, basically, just like

made my own way through this PhD self

380

funded myself through it so that I could

do the work I actually wanted to do.

381

And now I can make now with like the clear

head of not being under that pressure.

382

I can see that what I do is definitely

like in the communication paradigm.

383

I use these tools to help

people communicate with

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themselves and each other.

385

Astrology and tarot as a

language for reflection.

386

You know, it's it's funny how you circle

background and say, yeah, yeah, I, I did.

387

I did learn, even though I didn't fit,

you know, I did use what I had, and I am

388

the kind of person to never let anything

go to waste, so I have repurposed, you

389

know, things for my own, for my own work.

390

So anyway, that's all to say that I,

I decided that what was more important

391

than fitting into the paradigm and

writing in journals that only academics

392

read and analyzing everything to death

and making sure it ties back to the

393

old philosophies of yore, you know,

written by old white men in the sixties.

394

I don't know.

395

I just didn't want to do that.

396

And so after I finished, I thought,

okay, there's a seed of something here.

397

I didn't quite get there with the PhD.

398

I didn't quite get there all the way.

399

So I took some time to reframe my work.

400

into a nonfiction book

proposal for the mass market.

401

And I took the best of the

writing and I kept working on it.

402

And the best of it was

really that personal lens.

403

I think that's what like people

connect to is the memoir aspect of it.

404

And then from there I

connected it to other stories.

405

Because at that hinge point

between the PhD and my book work,

406

I realized that I was part of

something larger that was happening.

407

And that there were a lot of people who

had gone through this experience of trying

408

to return to their past and past ancestry.

409

And we were all, there's a thread that

connected to us, but we were all coming

410

out of it in from a different tradition.

411

And different histories and there

was there was something universal

412

and yet so specific about each of

our experiences and I wanted to

413

include as many of those voices as

possible in my next work in my book.

414

So that's what I set out to do

for years after post PhD I was

415

interviewing people around the country.

416

The pandemic happened and.

417

That put a wrench in things, but in some

ways it, it was wonderful because people

418

were connecting online like never before.

419

And so it was actually quite easy, more

accessible for all of us to like meet

420

via zoom and have these conversations.

421

And so each chapter of the

book is one of their stories.

422

And I really kept to the story

format, the first person or like

423

just their story in their own words.

424

I didn't want to analyze

anything to death.

425

I just wanted to present their stories

in their own words as much as I

426

possibly could and connect it to these

larger traditions and themes that I

427

was exploring through my research.

428

Liz Childs Kelly: Yes.

429

And I want to I want to talk more

about, you know, what you, what you

430

covered, like some of those themes.

431

But I think before we go there,

cause I want to make sure I keep

432

the thread of the sacred feminine.

433

I'm like, Oh wait, this

is what my show is.

434

Yeah.

435

I want to know if, okay.

436

So first of all, if that language

means anything to you and if it

437

doesn't, you know, feel free to

use your other, your own language.

438

But I always like to weave that in.

439

Like, what does that mean for you to know

This aspect of spirituality or spiritual

440

seeking or divinity through that lens

of what I call the sacred feminine,

441

but you might call something else.

442

Lorraine Monteagut: Yeah, so,

you know, my inspiration was.

443

My, my grandmother.

444

And so there is this idea of a maternal

line that I see in my own story and

445

in a lot of the practitioners that I

interview and follow of, of all genders.

446

There's this idea of I guess it's

because it's like in stark contrast to

447

the patriarchy and the male centered

institutions of our world that there is

448

this , balancing maternal ancestral thing

that we're all trying to connect with.

449

Now I did have a lot of difficulties over

the last 10 years as I was doing my work

450

in community with gender essentialism

and especially in circles, I would

451

lead, you know, of people expecting

all women to have the same experience,

452

you know, all of us to have wombs, all

of us to nurture children go through

453

the experience of birth, have periods

that line up with the moon cycles,

454

you know, that kind of thing that was

really, really popular for a while

455

and still is really in moon circles.

456

And you know, I guess I didn't

investigate it very critically at

457

first because I'm operating within it.

458

Right.

459

So I, I do identify as a

woman, you know, I do kind of.

460

Follow my own cycles and the cycles

of the moon and all that stuff.

461

But as I was working , the circles

got bigger and bigger, I realized

462

like, oh, wait, you know, there are

people who, who to them femininity

463

means something completely different.

464

And it's not, it's not exactly

the same for all of us.

465

And also I started to become more aware

of non binary and trans And I wanted to

466

make my circles inclusive to them as well.

467

So I started to change the language

and because of the way other people

468

were using sacred femininity, I started

to like shy away from it because I

469

didn't want to be , seen as someone

who is perpetuating stereotypes

470

about what it is to be feminine.

471

And so, so it was, it was tricky

for me, but I've since come back

472

around now that I'm more confident

in what I do and my beliefs.

473

I have come back around to

my own spiritual practice.

474

of femininity.

475

And I, I do really connect to

some divine beings in mythology

476

that are feminine beings.

477

And so I think that I'm re entering it

through personal practice again, and I'm

478

still a bit hesitant about the way that

I teach it, if that makes any sense.

479

Liz Childs Kelly: For sure.

480

Yeah.

481

It's funny.

482

I get so stubborn.

483

I'm like, I'm just

noticing this in myself.

484

It's stubborn around the language

of the sacred feminine, because,

485

almost because of what you're saying,

because I don't want it to be co opted

486

by This gender essentialist view.

487

I'm like, no, damn it.

488

You don't get to take this from me

And I will tell you what I mean by

489

using this language and you don't

need to use it Yeah, you say it.

490

However you want but you don't get to

take this like it's not okay To turn

491

it into something that I feel like

and from my perspective Historically

492

is even it's just not even accurate.

493

It's not right.

494

It doesn't even align with

what what's out there oh I can

495

feel myself getting all feisty.

496

Yeah, I like it I like

that The fiery, yeah.

497

Yeah, so anyways, I mean what you're

saying resonates and I too have this

498

hesitation around the language or

something that's like, I want you to

499

know that that's not what I mean and I

want you to know it right from the get go

500

and I want the words and the language so

that you know that right from the get go.

501

Like if you see what I'm doing,

like you know immediately it's not

502

this exclusionary thing and This is

actually bringing up a conversation

503

that I had with the two hosts

of the Missing Witches podcast.

504

You know, they, they've been on the show

twice and and we had this conversation

505

around the language, the sacred feminine.

506

And I was like, I don't know, it

was a tricky, you know, thing.

507

And Amy Torok was like, well, why

don't you come up with something else?

508

Like people are making

up words all the time.

509

And I was like, you're right.

510

Maybe I could.

511

I have yet to do that.

512

You know what I mean?

513

And, and then the stubborn part of me

is like, well, I don't want to have to.

514

I want to use this language because

patriarchy has given us shit options

515

in terms of language, you know?

516

And so I, I kind of want to reclaim it

and, and use it the way I feel is right.

517

But anyway.

518

Lorraine Monteagut: Yeah, I think, I

think that there's something to that

519

because if we water everything down

because we're scared of being canceled

520

for lack of a better, I feel like that's

what we're really scared of, right?

521

It's like, you know, not just being

canceled, but just not connecting to

522

people that we would otherwise connect

with because we we're using certain

523

language that might exclude them.

524

I, I think that patriarchy wins, you know,

because ultimately then everything that

525

we were trying to do just gets, you know,

swept aside because it's not perfect.

526

And the thing that the fact is that

nothing we're doing is perfect and it

527

never can be, but we can continue to

kind of, and this is something that

528

I also talked with Amy, the Missing

Witches podcast with You know, we bumble

529

through things, you know, we, we we're

figuring out as we go along and it's okay.

530

And so I obviously am operating

as a, well, not obviously I do

531

identify as a woman and my client

base is largely women, you know?

532

And so, yeah, we're doing something here.

533

With the feminine.

534

But I would like to, you know, maybe as

I move forward and talk to people, you

535

know, I've started a coven here and that's

historically, you know, very female.

536

I would like to invite the idea that this

is larger than our, our bodies and how we

537

were and what we were born with , and that

whether you identify as a male or female

538

and whether you, were assigned female

at birth, or, have come to identify as

539

female later in life or whether you're

non binary or, cisgender, there is

540

this, this pull towards what flows.

541

There's a pull, we're all coming together

because we're attracted to some force that

542

flows among us that's in response to

or outside of the rigid institutions that

543

we come from and like the restrictive

forces and I think astrology helps me the

544

most with this language because I think of

the patriarchy and the structures and the

545

restrictive nature of things as Saturn.

546

So that's how I talk about it to people

is Saturn's the daddy of the Zodiac.

547

And there's, you know, Saturn ruled women

out there and there's Saturn ruled men.

548

And then there are other forces

in astrology that connect more

549

to the nurturing flow of things.

550

And we need both , this is,

our world is, is both things.

551

It's manifest reality, it's structures,

but it's also the, those are the

552

containers that hold our spirits.

553

And so I think What brings

us together is that spirit.

554

However, we each experience it.

555

That's all ever flowing.

556

That's the mystery of things.

557

And the Saturn is kind of like what

we were talking of before is like

558

the science and the explanations.

559

And we do this dialectic all

the time between these things.

560

And I think that we need both of them.

561

So I think I, I do like, in

equal measure focus on both.

562

And because maybe cause I'm a Gemini and

I'm, you know, mercury person and that's

563

the mercury is the, the go between.

564

So like retrieves lessons

from each way of being.

565

But ultimately, yeah,

why do people come to me?

566

Why do people come to this work, the

work that you do, the work that I do,

567

these books out there, witchcraft,

you know, why do people come to it?

568

And I really do think it's like an

attraction to a force that we can't

569

catalog, we can't observe fully with

our five senses, there's something else.

570

And I guess if I were to call anything

sacred feminine, it would be that.

571

Liz Childs Kelly: Yeah.

572

Oh, I love that.

573

I really do.

574

I, I was thinking that as you were

saying that I did a talk at my former

575

alma mater a few weeks ago and was, you

know, like you have to, I'm sure you've

576

found this you revisit your own material

enough that it starts to make sense to

577

you in a different way, or you're able to

communicate it in a different way, right?

578

I don't know if you feel that

way, but that's how I felt.

579

Oh, totally.

580

Yeah.

581

Yeah.

582

And one of the things that I've found

myself wanting to say that I don't

583

say in the book is that any picture

that we have of spirit or God that

584

is just one expression is incomplete.

585

Like it's just incomplete.

586

And so for me, the reclamation

Has been the feminine, right?

587

Because I grew up in a

Southern Baptist household.

588

So God, God was a man.

589

I mean, there was definitely

no questions about that.

590

So that piece was like the first one

that has shown up really, really loud.

591

And it's almost like she's just

kicked the door open and it's been

592

like, yeah, but it's everything.

593

It's trees outside.

594

It is the bird.

595

It's the, it's the wind.

596

It is like the blood rushing

in your body, like that.

597

Is spirit, you know, so any, any

vision that we have of divinity

598

that doesn't include all of that

is just not complete, I think.

599

And so what I wonder about is,

600

Is the flowing piece for me, or like

the God in all things, the feminine,

601

or is she just the door kicker?

602

Like, she's just the one who's

like, let me open the door

603

so that you can see all this.

604

I don't know.

605

I don't think I have to know, you know?

606

I mean, whatever.

607

She's got a great role

no matter what, but.

608

Lorraine Monteagut: Yeah,

it's a, it's a mystery.

609

Liz Childs Kelly: It's a fricking mystery.

610

Lorraine Monteagut: Yeah.

611

I, I think that, you know, from my

experience using astrology primarily

612

as my mode with clients, there

are so many archetypes out there.

613

And we connect with certain ones at

certain parts of our lives, you know, and

614

because we are born into these bodies that

have these dongles and bubbles and just

615

to be silly about it, you know, like we

throughout history, throughout cultures

616

have Projected our form onto things.

617

Liz Childs Kelly: Yes.

618

Lorraine Monteagut: So, I

do think Which is all we

619

Liz Childs Kelly: can really do.

620

Right?

621

Like, I mean, right.

622

do.

623

Lorraine Monteagut: Yeah.

624

And so, I think if we're projecting,

like the masculine parts of us, as the

625

ones that connect to like these rigid

institutions that like not to say that

626

there's like, there's no value judge

moral judgment here like what we call

627

the quote unquote masculine is very

important too, it's the things that

628

hold us together, the containers and

the, the restrictions are sometimes

629

these useful, sometimes oppressive.

630

It just depends on the context, right?

631

And so if we're, you know, I feel like

maybe we project part of ourselves

632

that are like bound to this manifest

reality as masculine and maybe the

633

parts of ourselves that are mysterious

and flowing inside our emotions and our

634

creativity and our urges and everything

that hasn't yet been like written in

635

stone is I think what we usually refer

to as the feminine, but again, it's

636

like, it's imperfect because we're

just, we're just projecting what we are.

637

Liz Childs Kelly: Into

638

Lorraine Monteagut: out there.

639

Yeah.

640

And if we maybe were different beings,

like if we were like blobs with both

641

sexes and like eight tentacles and,

you know, if we just look different,

642

then we might not even call it that

we might call it like, I don't know.

643

Yeah.

644

The tentacle divine.

645

Liz Childs Kelly: Which, maybe

that's where we're headed, who knows?

646

Like evolutionarily speaking,

I guess we could become that.

647

Lorraine Monteagut: Yeah.

648

Like amoeba, if we were amoebas, then

our divine beings would look very

649

different and maybe not have the same

kind of genders is all I'm saying.

650

So, but the reality is we do have

this reality and you know, most of us

651

have been raised with this dichotomy,

you know, between male and female,

652

you know, these gender differences.

653

And I think it's a, it's a discussion

worth having because it is like

654

part of our realities and it, it

really like affects us all the

655

time, you know, and especially women

and those that identify as women

656

Liz Childs Kelly: in the most

657

Lorraine Monteagut:

inclusive way possible.

658

Like we all, we're coming up

against this conundrum all the time.

659

What does it mean to be

a woman in this world?

660

Liz Childs Kelly: Yeah.

661

And I, I think I just, one other

thing about that, that I wanted

662

to name based on my own experience

in a priestess initiation

663

circle that I was in for a year.

664

It was very intense and very powerful.

665

And there was a man that was in

that group and I was initially

666

very resistant because I just, you

know, I'm carrying my own trauma.

667

I'm like here to learn about the

feminine, like who the hell is this guy?

668

Why is he here?

669

His presence in that circle

was transformational.

670

And I, what I learned from that

is that so much is possible

671

with a clear agreement field.

672

Here's the container that

we agree to hold together.

673

Here's what we are okay with

and what we're not okay with.

674

And and also when you are

committed to, Oh, okay.

675

All right.

676

Let me see if I'm going

to tread into this one.

677

We, we'll see how this comes out.

678

Yeah.

679

And people can always call

me out if I mess this up.

680

I'm okay with it.

681

Lorraine Monteagut: This is

all an experiment right now.

682

Right?

683

We're just trying to,

684

Liz Childs Kelly: we're

685

Lorraine Monteagut: trying to figure

it out here in real time, everyone.

686

Yeah,

687

Liz Childs Kelly: but there is something

about fully stepping into your power.

688

And there are some ways in which women

absolutely have not been able to do that.

689

And institutions and systems and

family structures and All kinds of

690

things, especially for non white women

that have made it hard to do that.

691

So I, I am not saying

that that doesn't exist.

692

However, I also think that there, there's

a way that I'll just speak for me.

693

That'll make it safer.

694

I'll speak for me, where I'm carrying

perhaps the trauma of my own ancestors.

695

I'm looking around at the world and I'm

thinking that I actually don't have as

696

much power as I do, or that there are

systems that are in place that are holding

697

me back that I haven't pushed at hard

enough to be like, is this really true?

698

Do I have more agency right in this moment

than what I've told myself that I have?

699

And I think it's a white woman

with well educated and money.

700

That's absolutely true.

701

And and so to be in a container like

this priestess circle, which is all

702

about stepping into your full power.

703

And to be like, no, there's

a clear agreement field.

704

So we all know why we're here

and I'm going to hold it just

705

as much as everybody else.

706

Then suddenly there's safety and there's

just possibilities kind of exploding

707

everywhere that I never imagined.

708

And it was beautiful and

so incredibly empowering.

709

And now you can tell me

if I stepped in it or not.

710

Lorraine Monteagut: No,

I don't think you did.

711

So I like, I think the important

thing there, like the, the word

712

agreement is what stood out

is, are we all okay with this?

713

I do really believe in the power of

exclusive spaces that are agreed upon

714

for just, you know, one group of people.

715

So like a woman only space.

716

that is held sacred, gay

only spaces, people of color,

717

you know, black only spaces.

718

I believe in the power of those spaces

and I respect the exclusivity and like

719

that, that I don't belong in some of them.

720

And so I would have questions for the

man that was in your circle for sure.

721

Cause you know but if it was, you know,

if it was agreed upon by every member

722

there that it was okay, then it's okay.

723

Right.

724

But but there are places, you

know, circles and, and, and places

725

where there, it is more exclusive.

726

And in the spiritual world, there

are like traditions that are

727

closed and I write about those.

728

And you know, I think

it's important to respect.

729

People's boundaries around there because

a lot of power does happen within those

730

groups when they don't have the outside

eye, you know, and like when everybody

731

identifies as the same community.

732

And of course we all come from

many different communities I'm

733

not just a woman I'm a Latina

woman, no, I identify as a witch.

734

I'm a certain age group so

there's just so many different.

735

Floating identities.

736

And so it's, it's never going to

be perfect just because you're in a

737

room with only, people who identify

as women doesn't mean that it's

738

a homogenous group by any means.

739

I guess it's, it's complicated, but

I think consent and agreement is

740

important as everything, you know,

what are we doing here together?

741

And are we all like committed?

742

To this I think is the

most important thing.

743

And as I go forward, though, I used

to do women only circles and, you

744

know, women only circles that included

anybody who identified as a woman.

745

I have since opened it to anyone because

I think that whoever is being called

746

to come to my groups, should be there.

747

And what connects us and our commitment

and our agreement is to what we're

748

doing there and accepting each other.

749

You know, in all of our differences.

750

And can we call that kind

of mode sacred feminine?

751

I don't know.

752

Can we?

753

Maybe.

754

The witch.

755

The witch.

756

The witch.

757

The witch is like, you know

archetype, archetypally feminine.

758

And it doesn't mean you

can't be a male witch.

759

There's lots of male witches.

760

Liz Childs Kelly: Yes.

761

And this is the big lesson for me that

I have attributed to the sacred feminine

762

is the idea of yes and like just stop

with the binary either or like it's yes,

763

there's some truth there and there's some

truth here and like let's just let them

764

multiply instead of trying to put it under

the microscope and just pull it down to

765

its smallest parts, like just keep like

letting it get bigger, you know, and

766

like, let us stretch like our containers

just keep going bigger, bigger, bigger.

767

So we could hold all of

it too, rather than like.

768

Lorraine Monteagut: Yeah,

that's the opposite of

769

Liz Childs Kelly: Saturn to me.

770

Yeah.

771

Lorraine Monteagut: Yeah.

772

Yeah.

773

It's, it's a, it's a

malleable growing network.

774

I think of mushrooms, you know, in the

mycelium and the organic connections.

775

And I feel like that you know, if

maybe, maybe Divine Feminine and

776

Divine Masculine are just scaffolding

for us and until we understand

777

what we're really talking about.

778

And I think what it is, is the

difference between an organic

779

network of nurturing and more like

authoritarian vision of the world.

780

Is we're fighting against and because at

this moment in time, the authoritarian

781

vision has corrupted and it's causing

a lot of harm out there in the world.

782

And, has historically been

held by, and has historically

783

been held by men in power.

784

And that's just the facts.

785

And so is there anything like

truly Like masculine about that?

786

Maybe not.

787

Is there anything truly

feminine about what we're doing?

788

Maybe not.

789

But like, that's just,

that's just our perception.

790

Our, like, that's, that's

where we're coming from.

791

That's how we're viewing it.

792

And that's important.

793

And so we can't throw it away.

794

Just 'cause not perfect.

795

Yes.

796

'cause it's doing, 'cause it's

doing good work and there are

797

always going to be missteps.

798

Like, we're gonna step in

it, we're gonna do it wrong.

799

You know, like, we're gonna exclude

people and like harm people sometimes.

800

Accidentally hopefully accidentally,

you know, and hopefully we can reflect

801

and like, make amends and carry on.

802

Instead of throwing the baby out

with the bathwater and saying

803

this whole experiment is wrong.

804

And let's just shut it all down, like,

there's still something that we that pulls

805

us together in this kind of way that keeps

attracting us to each other in this kind

806

of way circles instead of hierarchies.

807

Liz Childs Kelly: Yeah.

808

I was just thinking of like

muddling through and I don't

809

know the etymology of that word.

810

I'm going to have to look it up

now, but I was thinking of mud

811

and like how mud to me is right.

812

Like it's thick and sticky and like,

we just, but it's also like, that's the

813

feminine to me, you know, or like, like,

we're just like, we're in the right place.

814

Like if we're like at mud squishing

between our toes and stuff, as we

815

muddle through this, it's a good thing.

816

It's all a good thing.

817

Lorraine Monteagut: Yeah.

818

And I think of organic and what's

happening under the surface.

819

And I think of Our muddling through is,

you know, disturbing the ground and then

820

maybe something else might come out of it.

821

Because we're stimulating

something together.

822

Yes.

823

Yeah, I was just part of a

protest this last weekend.

824

You know, the international

protest for Gaza.

825

Same.

826

And just saw, you know, like

how we are all doing that.

827

We're feet on the ground

muddling things up.

828

Not really understanding everything,

but maybe we're not even all on

829

the same page, but we're together.

830

Liz Childs Kelly: Well, and this is.

831

I just, I love how these conversations

flow because sometimes it just requires, I

832

feel like it requires nothing of me except

just to show up, you know, like engage.

833

And so this, this just happens.

834

Tease up.

835

I think this is perfect with the

last question I want to ask you,

836

which is about like, you really talk

about sacred activism in your book.

837

And that deeply resonates with me.

838

Like that for me is part of the

work of the sacred feminine.

839

It is not just let me buy a bunch

of crystals and no offense to

840

people who love your crystals.

841

I'm not dissing you, but you know,

it is not about, um, Just personal

842

development like let's make me feel

good about me, and I'm gonna stop

843

there Like I really think it's about

how does it ripple out into the world?

844

And so I know that's something that

you write about too, but I wonder

845

if you could reflect a little bit On

that you know and on your thoughts on

846

that and how that kind of came through

how it comes through in your life

847

And how it came through in your book

848

Lorraine Monteagut: Yeah, I

call it spiritual activism.

849

And I think, yeah, same

thing, sacred activism.

850

Well, it's not my term.

851

I learned it from Gloria Anzaldúa.

852

And she writes about it as, you know, the,

the force within us that extends outward.

853

and connects to others.

854

And our spiritual enhancement and growth

is incomplete without that connection.

855

And that's why I think of networks all

the time is that's what really matters is

856

where we are working on ourselves for the

purpose of collective growth and healing.

857

That is what it's all about.

858

And so if we're, if we're doing it at the

expense of others, but even not that far,

859

maybe it's not even at the expenses or

just at the ignorance or apathy of others

860

about others it's just incomplete work.

861

And it's just like any drug that

makes you feel good, like spirituality

862

can feel really good if it's like,

you know, you're reading things that

863

really resonate with you and you're

going to yoga and you're breathing

864

deeply and your body feels great.

865

But it's also hard work because

you're like illuminating your

866

baddies and the patterns of the past

that might be detrimental to you.

867

And, you know, we talk about this as

shadow work that we've, you know, we've

868

kind of taken that from psychology.

869

And when we do this, we connect to

others who are doing the same work

870

and we bumble through it together

and we like, figure it out and like,

871

probably make a mess of things.

872

And like people listening to me trying

to explain the sacred feminine before

873

probably like what the hell, you know,

it just doesn't make sense all the time.

874

And it's just It's important to do that

without the expectation of a particular

875

outcome for yourself, it's more about

connecting to others and lending a

876

hand and like helping others figure

it out and, helping others in need.

877

And that's, that's what

my whole life is about.

878

And I have foregone some good pay and some

security and stability because I really

879

do believe in that work of making myself

available to others and helping them

880

with the hard things in their lives and

connecting and community and mutual aid.

881

Networks that might grow to, you know,

anytime we've got a mushroom pop out,

882

like, you know, a success, it's because

of that mycelial network that we did for

883

years and under the mud and the dirt that

didn't seem like it was for anything.

884

And it turns out to change things.

885

Liz Childs Kelly: I love that.

886

Yeah.

887

And that we can't always see

it when we're, we're in it.

888

Yeah, absolutely.

889

Absolutely.

890

Lorraine, this has been so fun.

891

Thank you so much.

892

I just feel like time's like whoosh.

893

Oh yeah.

894

So fast.

895

It's already been an hour.

896

I know.

897

I know.

898

So Lorraine's book is Brujas, the

magic and power of witches of color.

899

I will make sure to put a link in To

it in the show notes and then tell

900

us how people can find you if they

want to learn more about you and all

901

the cool things that you're doing.

902

Lorraine Monteagut: Best way

to find me is on Instagram at

903

the moment at witchy heights.

904

I too am a slow adopter

of the ticky talkies, so

905

Liz Childs Kelly: thank you

for making me feel better.

906

Okay.

907

Lorraine Monteagut: Yeah, I am trying

to get on there this, this year, I will.

908

Witch Tok is a huge thing so maybe with

some help I can, I can get going on there.

909

But for now, Instagram at Witchy

Heights is the best way to do it.

910

To connect with me on social.

911

And I do have a website, witchy heights.

912

com where you can check out my offerings.

913

I'm going to start a year long

class series on ritual astrology

914

and the way you can learn your

birth chart and also connected to

915

some rituals you can do at home.

916

And that will be available online

as well as in person in St.

917

Pete or the Tampa Bay area.

918

If you happen to be here, or if you

happen to be in Florida, I want to take a

919

Liz Childs Kelly: Super cool.

920

Thank you so much.

921

This has really, really, really been fun.

922

Thank you so much.

923

Yeah.

924

Yeah.

925

And thanks to all of you

as always for listening.

926

I'm so glad you show up So you get bored

of me saying the same thing over and over

927

you probably do if you listen to this a

lot but I do always like want to close

928

these with just saying like I I would have

these conversations even if you weren't

929

there because they make me really happy

but The fact that you are tuning in makes

930

it more likely that cool people like

Lorraine will show up and talk to me.

931

And I like sharing it with you.

932

So I'm super grateful that

you're along for the ride.

933

And if you like this show,

you can do a few things.

934

You can leave it a favorable review.

935

You can tell all your friends about it.

936

You can subscribe to it.

937

You can do all those things.

938

And until next time, take really good

care of yourself, keep muddling through,

939

and I'll talk to you again soon.

940

Home to Her is hosted by me, Liz Kelly.

941

You can visit me online at hometoher.

942

com, where you can find show

notes and other episodes.

943

You can read articles about the

Sacred Feminine, and you'll also

944

find a link to join the Home to

Her Facebook group for lots more

945

discussion and exploration of Her.

946

You can also follow me on Instagram,

at home to her, to keep up to

947

date with the latest episodes.

948

Thanks so much for joining us

and we'll see you back here soon.