Transcripts
Chris Barbic, welcome to CharterFolk Chat.
Jed:So great to have you here.
Jed:Thanks for being willing to do this.
Chris:Of course.
Chris:Thanks for having me.
Jed:And dude, congratulations man.
Jed:You know, Charter School Hall of Fame.
Jed:gotta say this is a choice.
Jed:That was, a very wise one, but, Can you just like, walk me through
Jed:like what were your reactions when, whomever it was that, that called you?
Jed:What, what were you thinking and, and what's it like to, you know,
Jed:those first, that first hour after you learned something like this?
Chris:It was awesome, Jed.
Chris:I mean, when you think about just all the great people that work in
Chris:our sector, I mean, you know, 'em, we grew up together with them.
Chris:You highlight a lot of them in CharterFolk.
Chris:it's just an awesome group of people.
Chris:So.
Chris:To get recognized for your work among such an incredible group.
Chris:man, I just couldn't be more grateful for it.
Chris:It was, it was a great feeling.
Chris:It was, I was surprised.
Chris:you know, the way, the way I found out about it was, Natalie
Chris:Natalie Kaharick who runs the Texas Public Charter School Association.
Chris:So she, reached out and said, Hey, we're gonna nominate you for this.
Chris:And I was kind of like, look, I haven't.
Chris:Been at YES Prep.
Chris:For like 15 years.
Chris:Why now?
Chris:And she's like, well, that's true, but you've been on our board for a long time.
Chris:You've, you know, done a bunch of good work.
Chris:through the association she mentioned my work in Tennessee with the,
Chris:with the Charter Association there.
Chris:And then City Fund, I mean, just through our work, we stay very
Chris:connected to the charter sector.
Chris:I get to meet, you know, tons of new leaders, try and drop
Chris:whatever knowledge I can.
Chris:So when she kinda like talked about the work outside of YES Prep.
Chris:Prep, It was less of a surprise, but, man, just incredibly grateful for it.
Jed:So give us the backstage pass.
Jed:Who called you?
Jed:You know, where were you?
Chris:I, found out from Andrea at the Alliance that they were doing it.
Chris:well, I knew I was getting nominated about two weeks before, but you know,
Chris:you never know accept nomination or not.
Chris:So, I guess that makes me a first ballot hall of famer, which
Chris:makes me, even more grateful.
Chris:so, Found out from Andrea about, you know, a few weeks before the conference
Chris:and I don't know, I don't know what you're like, I just, I didn't wanna
Chris:like, make a big deal out of it.
Chris:They, they said, Hey, don't share this with too many people.
Chris:'cause they didn't, they didn't want me to get out in front of the media.
Chris:So, I started letting some people at City Fund who I worked with know a
Chris:few days before because I knew they were gonna be at the conference.
Chris:So, the, you know, the thing that probably felt the best Jed, was when I would.
Chris:Just, you know, finally share it with some folks.
Chris:the number of people that, who I really respect who are just like,
Chris:man, that's super well deserved.
Chris:so again, coming from, coming from, just such awesome leaders, you know,
Chris:many of whom I've gotten to work with, it just felt really good.
Chris:It's, just, it's always great to be recognized for your work.
Chris:So I really was the highlight of the summer.
Chris:Well, I was work doing some work for the national, founders library,
Chris:charter school Founders library, which you're on the advisory board of.
Chris:And I basically did some research to look at how, who all has been appointed.
Chris:'cause we really don't have a, a great website.
Chris:We will soon.
Chris:We will soon celebrating everybody.
Chris:but it's, it's about 37, 38 people.
Chris:There've been a few institutions that have been chosen.
Chris:Mm-hmm.
Chris:but this is a very small group of people.
Chris:and so, you know, as you've, as you think about your own work.
Chris:How does being recognized in this way, has it affected at all what
Chris:you're thinking about in terms of what your impact has been, where
Chris:the biggest, difference was made?
Chris:or are you still just basically thinking about your work in, in the same way that
Chris:you were, say, three or four months ago?
Chris:I think it's a nice way of saying you're old.
Chris:but, no, I think, I think the conversation with Natalie, that
Chris:just really made me think about more than just, the work at Yes Prep,
Chris:which you know, was awesome and fun.
Chris:But, just the connection to the charter sector in a few different roles and
Chris:seats and even today, I guess just had me thinking a little bit more
Chris:broadly, but, I just feel lucky, man.
Chris:I've gotten to work with so many great people and on something that
Chris:I still care so much about.
Chris:I'm still learning a ton, so not many people at 55 get to say those things, so.
Chris:Just couldn't be more grateful.
Chris:So
Jed:I, do you think about your, your work in three big themes, three big chapters?
Jed:Is it, is it YES Prep.
Jed:Is it Tennessee ASD and is it City Fund or do you have different
Jed:ways that you would talk about?
Jed:No,
Chris:I think that's right.
Chris:I mean, you know, yes, prep is an operator as a founder, the role of
Chris:ASD was, we were really, if you boil it down, we were an authorizer.
Chris:We authorized a bunch of schools to do turnaround work.
Chris:Then now as a, you know, as a funder and a supporter through City Fund.
Chris:yeah, I think those are definitely the three big chapters in my career.
Chris:And, you know, are, I don't know if you're like, like me or not.
Chris:I don't, I do.
Chris:I have, whatever.
Chris:I have some, some chapters as well.
Chris:Perhaps not quite as distinct as your own, but there's something about those
Chris:seven years at Hooper Avenue mm-hmm.
Chris:In the classroom.
Chris:I it like if I have dreams at night, I don't dream about being an authorizer
Chris:at San Diego Unified School District.
Chris:I actually don't even dream that much about fi finishing buildings
Chris:or like, you know, opening up a graduate school at High Tech High.
Chris:There are some advocacy fights in the legislature.
Chris:They do wake me up still, but really, what's like most deeply
Chris:seeped into my pores probably are those experiences in the classroom.
Chris:And it just makes me wonder.
Chris:Is it the same for you?
Chris:Is there something about YES Prep.
Chris:That re is on an even deeper register than perhaps some of this other work?
Chris:No doubt, man.
Chris:I mean, I think it gets back to the origin story.
Chris:I mean, I started Yes, prep as a frustrated teacher.
Chris:I taught sixth grade and elementary school that finished in sixth grade.
Chris:So I, you know, was doing Teach From America in Houston and
Chris:because, it was an elementary school with a lot of the kids that.
Chris:Left to go to the middle school.
Chris:Who had younger brothers and sisters at, at the school?
Chris:I was still teaching.
Chris:I would see my kids come back, you know, pick up their younger brother and sister.
Chris:they'd swing by the classroom and, It was just like one horror story after another
Chris:about how lousy the middle school was.
Chris:And so being able to, pivot from that experience really, you know,
Chris:create the school of my dreams, and then bring along former students,
Chris:educators from around the city, great educators from around the city.
Chris:I mean, that was like magical, you know?
Chris:So yeah, those early years, definitely.
Chris:stand out and I mean, it was probably like this for you.
Chris:We worked so hard.
Chris:I mean, we were going to school from seven 30 to five Saturday, three times a month.
Chris:and when you're working and we were all young and about the same age, like
Chris:it was your colleagues, these were your friends outside of work, I mean.
Chris:When you're working with people that intensely, you just develop
Chris:a different kind of bond, I think.
Chris:man, so I just, yeah.
Chris:I look back on those years with, nothing but love and fond memories.
Chris:I.
Chris:I was gonna do this in a different order, but you, you've kind of gone in
Chris:this direction anyway, so let me just go into this, how hard you worked,
Chris:and how hard everybody was working.
Chris:and I mean, that, that is a hallmark.
Chris:People will talk about Chris Barbic, just the hours at the ASD as well
Chris:and the grueling, grueling political challenges at the ASD as well.
Chris:I just, how have you?
Chris:Sustain this work over that period of time.
Chris:I mean, how, how do you, are you smarter now about how hard you can
Chris:push yourself and how hard you can't?
Chris:anything you,
Chris:well, I mean, I had a, I had a heart attack when I was doing that and I was
Chris:44, so, probably not a poster child for someone that should be given advice on
Chris:this topic, but, well, maybe exactly.
Chris:Maybe what you learned it through that experience is, you know, well, exactly.
Chris:We wanna hear.
Chris:I think that, I mean, I'm definitely taking better care of myself.
Chris:The work I'm doing now is not, I mean, it's, it's, I work hard and everybody
Chris:on our team at City Fund works hard.
Chris:It's, but it's different kind of work.
Chris:you know, I'll never forget when, when I started working in the,
Chris:in the funding space, the first person I called was Don Shelby.
Chris:Yeah.
Chris:And because, you know, Don had been.
Chris:Aspire and, you know, was at gates.
Chris:And, I was like, Don, you know, drop some knowledge on me, like,
Chris:how should I be thinking about this?
Chris:And he had this great line where he is like, you know, when you're
Chris:working in schools, whether it's as a principal or as a, you know,
Chris:a leader of a charter network.
Chris:You're the director, he's like, in this role, you're more the executive producer.
Chris:You're, you're trying to find the good directors and you're pouring
Chris:into them, which is still important work, but different kind of work.
Chris:And that analogy's always stuck with me.
Chris:I mean, of course Don, you know, said something really
Chris:wise I still think about today.
Chris:but you know, it's different kind of work.
Chris:and I think, you know what's, even though I had some health challenges,
Chris:what, What was really important kind of getting through the work and still, you
Chris:know, why I'm so excited to still be in it is you gotta have a sense of humor.
Chris:I just think like, and you gotta surround yourself with people who do too.
Chris:So, you know, one of the things we talk a lot about at the ASD was
Chris:we can take the work seriously.
Chris:We can't take ourselves too seriously.
Chris:And even though those community meetings would get hot, there
Chris:were some heavy conversations.
Chris:we would always try and find, you know, we'd get together afterwards.
Chris:Grab a beer, download, debrief, and still try and find the light moments.
Chris:And there were certainly some where, they, they were worth a, a laugh or two.
Chris:So I think, as much as the hard work's hopefully been a hallmark, it's also been
Chris:a spirit of always having fun doing this.
Chris:'cause you gotta have a great time.
Chris:So that's been important too.
Chris:Well, when you have a chance to, to do it with people like Don, and the circle that
Chris:he drew together with Miss Don every day.
Chris:Right.
Chris:But, you know, you're a fellow Hall of Fame member, you know,
Chris:along with a guy at this point.
Chris:So, but I don't know.
Chris:I think, I mean, I'm not gonna put myself out there as.
Chris:Having been through the ringer as much as you or you know, lots of
Chris:other people in our movement, but I think I also am keyed into when the
Chris:lift is really, really heavy, but.
Chris:It's just a privilege and a joy.
Chris:'cause like you can see the stuff coming together and then there's the heavy
Chris:lift that burns, that just burns, you know, and, you know, you're, you're, you
Chris:know, threatening your own fuse here.
Chris:and it just seems as though since CO since George Floyd, there
Chris:have been those moments where I think a lot of charter school.
Chris:Leaders, a lot of charter folk have just seen that, that heavy lift.
Chris:Yeah.
Chris:Turn from something that just gave them greater meaning and actually
Chris:filled them with new things to something that just simply burned.
Chris:but now, I don't know.
Chris:I feel like we're kind of like.
Chris:Coming through on the other side of this thing.
Chris:I agreed.
Chris:And I just, I don't, I'm not having the same conversations I
Chris:had with people three years ago.
Chris:Yeah.
Chris:I've got people, you know, your age that, you know, have retired and I'm like,
Chris:no, we're gonna get these people back.
Chris:But, just talk to me about, you know, what to, how, how to.
Chris:What is the work that sustains us?
Chris:And then how do we get through the work that's just so ridiculously challenging,
Chris:that we shouldn't have to put up with it.
Chris:But unfortunately we do have to.
Chris:Well, I mean, I agree.
Chris:I do think we are kind of coming out of the like dark fog that we were all sort
Chris:of like wandering around in for a while.
Chris:that's been motivating for me.
Chris:I think it's been.
Chris:Motivating for the school leaders I've talked to, you
Chris:know, I'm on the board of YES Prep.
Chris:Prep now.
Chris:So, it was awesome to be able to see, you know, the incredible data
Chris:that the team there, and the kids, their outcomes this past school year.
Chris:And it felt like a big, big, change from the prior years after COVID.
Chris:So, I know that's one example.
Chris:That's the one I'm closest to, so it's one I mentioned, but, you know,
Chris:you put something recently, I think it was the last charter folk, email
Chris:out about the Tennessee data and just how strong it was post COVID.
Chris:So
Chris:little like data points, around the country that shows.
Chris:Okay.
Chris:We're, we are, I mean, I know we talked about Swaggers such
Chris:kind of a setup for this.
Chris:It does feel like we're starting to get our swagger back and it's awesome and
Chris:it's motivating and I think that's what.
Chris:You know, is that fuel that, gets people that it might have been
Chris:feeling down and out and kind of in survival mode during COVID to,
Chris:okay, it's time to thrive now.
Chris:And it looks like people are doing that.
Chris:Well, Bob,
Chris:by rights, I probably would've reached out to you for this interview no matter what.
Chris:but when I was there at the conference and there was the gathering and all
Chris:of the inductees had a chance to speak to a real large audience there.
Chris:Your comments about swagger, I was like, that's mohi.
Chris:Absolutely.
Chris:Absolutely.
Chris:If there's anything I could want, you know, for our, our movement right now, it
Chris:would be that we could have had thousands more people in there, a little bit quieter
Chris:so we could hear every word, but just, just share, you know, what was, for those
Chris:that weren't there, or for those that couldn't hear everything, what was, what
Chris:is the swagger concept you're talking about and why did it occur to you and, and
Chris:what do you think its implications are?
Chris:Sure.
Chris:I think it comes back to, high expectations and excellence.
Chris:I mean, you know, we've been around long enough.
Chris:We, we were there when the, when the sector started and, you know, and
Chris:I said this that night, in Orlando, you know, charters weren't started
Chris:to be slightly better than the traditional public school district.
Chris:Yeah.
Chris:the goal in North Star has always been to be way better.
Chris:Than the, the neighboring school and to be, you know, kind of a proof point
Chris:in the community for kids and families.
Chris:And it felt like, and what I was, you know, worried about, but maybe less
Chris:worried about now was that, I mean, COVID was a punch to everybody's face.
Chris:I mean, we were all, I mean, and you know, I also feel like I should say I
Chris:wasn't leading schools during that time.
Chris:So it's easy to kind of like, you know, Monday morning
Chris:quarterback from the cheap seats.
Chris:I know that it was how hard it was for leaders, and it, it felt like we kind
Chris:of lost our way a little bit on this idea of excellence because I think it's
Chris:hard to aspire to excellence when you're just trying to like, get by every day.
Chris:You're just, you're in, you're in survival mode.
Chris:and I think people were in survival mode and we were kind of on our
Chris:heels in a defensive posture.
Chris:And I think my point that night was.
Chris:It's time to get back to our roots of outcomes for kids.
Chris:Excellence being a proof point, for kids and families in, in a, in
Chris:a neighborhood where maybe there, there aren't a ton of great options.
Chris:And I do think, since that night, I'm more optimistic too.
Chris:I think, one, the conversations, I don't know if you picked up on this,
Chris:but I felt like at the conference there were a lot more conversations about,
Chris:We gotta get back to high expectations.
Chris:We gotta get back to excellence, you know?
Chris:Sure.
Chris:We can learn some lessons from, some people like to throw rocks
Chris:at no excuses schools version 1.0 and, I think some of that's fair.
Chris:I think some of it was overblown, but, but there was no doubt that like combining
Chris:high expectations with support and.
Chris:The right balance of tough and love.
Chris:I mean that works and it did work.
Chris:And so I think like getting, getting back to some of that, which it felt
Chris:like more people were willing to have those conversations and then.
Chris:you know, just some of the data points we talked about.
Chris:I mean, when you're seeing elementary charter schools in
Chris:Tennessee where kids are getting 174 additional days of learning, that's
Chris:almost like a whole school year.
Chris:I mean, so isn't, I can't think of a better example of
Chris:like, yeah, we're definitely starting to get our swagger back.
Chris:So, I, but yeah, I think the bottom line for me is it's about excellence for kids.
Chris:It's, it's about what we expect from our kids.
Chris:They can do it, we should expect it, we should support 'em.
Chris:and just having that be kind of.
Chris:Getting back to the days where that's our North Star.
Chris:Well, I think that charter folk exists because, I mean, Kevin Hall from
Chris:Charter School Growth Fund in that, in that first year after I was outta
Chris:CSA, gave me a travel grant and I got to go to between 30 and 35 states.
Chris:I had to stop traveling 'cause COVID hit.
Chris:but it was that, that, that tour.
Chris:I had a chance to talk to charter school people in all sorts of different
Chris:settings where I came away from it just feeling as though we had lost
Chris:a sense of confidence that we were even on the right side of history.
Chris:that there was something maybe questionable about us.
Chris:were we a part of some big plot?
Chris:Were we all, some Trumpian, you know, sideshow?
Chris:What, what?
Chris:That's when I was just like, okay, we gotta try to do, we gotta
Chris:invest more in our own people.
Chris:You know, charter, charter folk are ultimately gonna determine whether or not
Chris:the movement proves successful or not.
Chris:and yet there's a, there's a difference too between swagger and kind of hubris.
Chris:'cause I think there are moments when we've been excessively cocky or we
Chris:thought it was gonna be easier than it was or whatever it might have been.
Chris:So can, can you parse out a little bit more about.
Chris:What's the difference between swagger and what is a kind of cockiness that,
Chris:you know, hopefully we've outgrown?
Chris:Yeah, that's a great question.
Chris:I think of it as more as, thriving, not as arrogance.
Chris:it's just, it's not, it's, it's getting, it's, it's moving past
Chris:survival mode where you're just trying to get through the day to, having
Chris:bigger aspirations for ourselves.
Chris:And our kids and our families, which I don't think's arrogant.
Chris:I think it's what they deserve.
Chris:and so I see it much more as a mindset of, of thriving and less a mindset of hubris.
Chris:And, and I agree.
Chris:I mean, you could hear and, and I heard, similar conversations, you know, we're,
Chris:and, and I felt like, and, and maybe you felt this way too, but as someone
Chris:that, It's kind of been around this for a long time, really since the beginning.
Chris:Just, you know, trying to help people understand the history of
Chris:what it was we were all trying to do.
Chris:Yeah.
Chris:The no excuses wasn't about being, you know, unnecessarily harsh on kids.
Chris:It was about not letting ourselves off the hook as adults because we
Chris:were gonna make excuses for why our kids couldn't do the work.
Chris:It was about high expectations, supporting our kids, the right
Chris:balance of tough and love.
Chris:And, you know, did some people maybe go too far with some of that?
Chris:maybe.
Chris:but it was always coming out of a spirit of love, good intentions.
Chris:And so I just think opportunities to have those conversations just to kind
Chris:of like set the record straight a little bit and make sure that the wrong
Chris:narratives aren't taking root when you know, nobody I knew and nobody, I'm still
Chris:not doing this, is doing this because.
Chris:They wake up every morning looking in the mirror saying, I want to be,
Chris:you know, terrible to kids today.
Chris:I mean, it's right.
Chris:It's the best of intentions.
Chris:And, and so, and again, I think we've kind of like moved through some of that
Chris:and the, the tone of the conversations, at least the ones I've, I've been having
Chris:more recently seem to be a lot different.
Chris:And, it's got me really optimistic about the future.
Chris:Yeah, I think there's something, a combination of.
Chris:Knowing that we're on the right side of history, that, you know, as you know,
Chris:Howard Fuller teaches us another of your, you know, fellow Hall of Fame, inductees.
Chris:This is about excellence and, and equity.
Chris:and we gotta deliver on both of them.
Chris:Yeah.
Chris:and having that sense of confidence.
Chris:There's something fundamentally not fair about the way our public education system
Chris:works and having a sense of confidence that while we have all sorts of problems,
Chris:we have something very profound to offer.
Chris:Yeah.
Chris:At the same time that we know.
Chris:That our schools are actually doing a great job with kids.
Chris:Mm-hmm.
Chris:You put those two things together and you can bring the swagger to it.
Chris:I think, I actually think that, you know, the more that we're aware of
Chris:the fact that we have made mistakes in the past, I, it makes us stronger.
Chris:I think that, I mean, what one of my favorite introductions to any book is
Chris:Taylor Branches, party of the Waters.
Chris:Love that book, love that book, and in that in introduction, he
Chris:talks about the United States.
Chris:Perhaps its greatest.
Chris:Strength was, it's, it's self-correcting nature.
Chris:Mm-hmm.
Chris:we've made all these mistakes and somehow or another we find a way to correct.
Chris:And I just have come back to that again and again, you know,
Chris:charter school movement, it's one of those things that's pretty
Chris:self-correcting as well.
Chris:I totally agree.
Chris:I mean, I think, when you think about, you know, this idea of learning
Chris:organizations, I think that's the hallmark of, of our best schools and
Chris:our best operators who, yeah, they.
Chris:They hit some resistance, some adversity, learn from it, are quick to implement the,
Chris:the changes and the new things they need to do as a result of what they learned.
Chris:And then they start getting after it again so the kids can excel.
Chris:And I think, I think that's what we're, I think we're starting to see that.
Chris:I think that's always probably been happening since COVID, maybe
Chris:it was just, you know, happening inside classrooms in school.
Chris:So, you know, someone like me may not have seen it as much, but it feels like now,
Chris:We're starting to bear the fruit from some of that.
Chris:Yeah.
Chris:yeah, it's like I'm just, couldn't be more optimistic, like I said, so.
Chris:can't wait for more data to come out.
Chris:I know in Texas they're gonna release the, the report cards later this month.
Chris:I think we're kind of hitting that season where a lot of this data that may have
Chris:been maybe have been embargoed for schools is now gonna start being made public.
Chris:So I'm hoping it's just another flurry of, of good news stories.
Chris:And then, you know, the last thing I'd say in this swagger point, Jed,
Chris:is that, I think as, as part of this thriving and confidence is.
Chris:We weren't afraid to call out the system for what it was
Chris:doing to our kids and families.
Chris:Yeah.
Chris:And we, and we weren't.
Chris:And I feel like there was a point in time where like we kind of like were
Chris:crouching in the corner, like hoping nobody would see us and we weren't
Chris:vocally saying that what was happening.
Chris:In the neighborhoods where we were working with the kids that we cared
Chris:about was just flat out wrong.
Chris:And I hope that now that, you know, we start to like grab the moral high
Chris:ground again with, with our results and data, which it looks like it's
Chris:starting to happen, that we can parlay that into a little bit more
Chris:confidently calling out, calling out the inequities and calling out, just where,
Chris:where the system's failing our kids.
Chris:'cause it feels like we've, School leaders, we've gotten away from that.
Chris:Maybe that's because the associations have done a better job of it and they didn't.
Chris:They don't have to as much.
Chris:But I think that's also another important part of this idea of
Chris:swagger is we can't just like be great for our kids, which we need to be.
Chris:We also gotta, you know, shine a light when the other other
Chris:sides failing our students.
Chris:And I think that's important too,
Chris:in terms of what we've learned.
Chris:And you were there really early in Tennessee's intense investment anyway in
Chris:charter schools and the whole concept of the ASD did that get started in 2011.
Chris:2011. Okay.
Chris:and.
Chris:I think I'm not, I think we would say that we're, we have greater
Chris:traction right now in 2025 than maybe we had in 2015 in Tennessee.
Chris:We're, we're, we're making greater progress.
Chris:I mean, can you use Tennessee as a lens for, you know, Hey,
Chris:how are we self-correcting here?
Chris:Why are we making more progress today than perhaps we were in the past?
Chris:Any any observations you would, you would share there?
Chris:Good question.
Chris:I mean, I think we've definitely learned, I mean, I think we learned.
Chris:some big lessons about out-of-state growth, how hard that is.
Chris:Mm-hmm.
Chris:how complicated it is to just kind of like set up shop in a brand
Chris:new state for the first time.
Chris:I think that, for a lot of the operators that were coming here during those
Chris:years, the standards and tests were harder than what they were used to.
Chris:so just, and now because, you know, folks have been here for almost
Chris:a decade, they've been able to kind of recalibrate, understand.
Chris:The accountability systems here and make sure that their kids are
Chris:ready for, for those assessments.
Chris:which kind of gets back to the learning we talked about just a second ago.
Chris:I think as the sector grows, it, it, the funder community here grows with it.
Chris:I mean, we're serving probably right around 45,000 kids now.
Chris:Tennessee, there's a million kids in the state ish, in public schools.
Chris:So.
Chris:You know, in 2011 the sector was pretty small.
Chris:and so, you know, a lot of people had no idea what a charter school was.
Chris:You know, how it worked.
Chris:And there's still probably too many people that don't know what one is.
Chris:But, as the sector grows, as the, you know, we get this awesome data,
Chris:like we just recently got, I think, as we get more, you know, just
Chris:bright spots and proof points of what's possible, and we have those.
Chris:And, not just, Nashville and Memphis, which is traditionally
Chris:where most of the charters were.
Chris:It's still the vast majority, but we've got those proof points in Knoxville.
Chris:We've got those proof points in Chattanooga.
Chris:So it's just, I think, because of that we've just, we're able to touch
Chris:more kids and families and make more people aware of what a school is and,
Chris:The kind of option that offers families.
Chris:I would, I'll offer the following.
Chris:I don't know if you would agree with this or not.
Chris:I've often said there was this thing in Los Angeles, they called
Chris:it the broad plan, you know, where Eli Broad's Foundation was gonna,
Chris:like, support the growth of, you know, all these charter schools.
Chris:Gotta be extremely controversial and all that.
Chris:I remember that.
Chris:But, you know, I just said, I didn't li, the only thing
Chris:I didn't like about the plan.
Chris:Well, there are a lot of things I didn't like about it, but the
Chris:thing I didn't like about it the most was the pronunciation Brode.
Chris:Should have been broad.
Chris:Mm. The broad thinking was to go to a small number of organizations
Chris:and those two or three, you know, we'll blow them out.
Chris:Mm-hmm.
Chris:Where my experience in Los Angeles and in California was, there were so many great
Chris:organizations, and now there were some that were definitely underperforming.
Chris:It.
Chris:We should be calling for their closure and you know, we did that at CSA and all
Chris:that stuff, but the broader, the bet.
Chris:The broader the bet, that's when you unleash something.
Chris:Yeah.
Chris:And so I was to compare, now in Tennessee, we just have a, a, a broader bet
Chris:happening going from, from Chattanooga going into other parts of the state.
Chris:Hey, the sectors themselves in Memphis and in and in Nashville
Chris:have matured and across all of them.
Chris:We're seeing them move and it's when that collective, that's, that's
Chris:why charter folk and so many people doing this really, really matters.
Chris:I see you nodding your head, but I don't know, would you offer any nuance to this?
Chris:Or, or also I totally
Chris:agree.
Chris:I mean, I think of, you know, when I think of a healthy sector in a city, I
Chris:think that, you know, there's probably like two or three, what I would call
Chris:kind of anchor operators who are serving maybe 30 ish percent of the kids.
Chris:Then you've got, you know, filled in with some single sites who are, you
Chris:know, just offering very, unique models.
Chris:And when I think about, I mean, Nashville's a great example of this.
Chris:You've got, KIPP lead, valor, rocket ships, you know, serving like across
Chris:the, The four or five of them, probably 34 to 40% of the kids in the city.
Chris:But then you've got just incredible single site operators like, you
Chris:know Legger at Purpose Prep.
Chris:Yep.
Chris:You've got Charlie at Nashville Classical who's got two schools now.
Chris:Yep.
Chris:You've got Aventura, which is, you know, a, Spanish immersion project
Chris:based K through eight school.
Chris:There's a Tennessee Nature Academy.
Chris:There's like all these different types of options and, but you've also got your kids
Chris:and your Ballards who are just doing like.
Chris:Really awesome, you know, college prep work.
Chris:So I agree.
Chris:We can't just point to like the two or three leaders and trot them out
Chris:and say, this is the charter sector.
Chris:'cause it's, it's much broader than that, in terms of who's leading, what their
Chris:backgrounds are, the types of schools.
Chris:And so, yeah, I think Nashville is just such a great example in Tennessee
Chris:of what you're talking about.
Chris:So, and if we just broaden the circle beyond Nashville to the whole state,
Chris:well then we have to recognize El Waffer from Chattanooga joins you as an
Chris:inductee in the Hall of Fame this year.
Chris:Right.
Chris:Was in the
Chris:house that night, Jed,
Chris:that was cool.
Chris:It was really cool.
Chris:alright, well let's focus a little bit.
Chris:it wouldn't be, you know, CharterFolk if I didn't
Chris:put my thumb on the scale to talk a little bit about advocacy here,
Chris:but I feel like the Tennessee story.
Chris:And I don't wanna disparage any actions of the past.
Chris:Mm-hmm.
Chris:I think everybody has been, just making incredible efforts.
Chris:and yet I think in, we would probably summarize that our
Chris:advocacy wasn't as strong as we would need it to be in Tennessee.
Chris:but right now with, you know, Tennessee is for success, you know, with David
Chris:Montessori there at SCORE and with Elizabeth five Ash now leading the center.
Chris:I think we have the best advocacy in Tennessee that we've ever had, you
Chris:know, and also you've been a key person as a board member there and all of that.
Chris:could you summarize anything that you think we might have learned
Chris:about building effective advocacy?
Chris:well, I mean, I agree that, in this last session I think is evidence of that.
Chris:I mean, we just had an incredible session.
Chris:We made wins.
Chris:Facility funding, authorizing, which if you ask most operators here, what are
Chris:the two biggest barriers, they would point to one or both of those things.
Chris:so, yeah, it was a, it was a incredible session and I think, the, the big
Chris:lesson I would say, I mean, of course leadership always matters, but, Is the
Chris:power of coalition building, and having a group of, you know, organizations with
Chris:some overlapping interests, but also some areas that, they don't overlap.
Chris:Who have, you know, different priorities all coming together on
Chris:this, this issue in particular, working together incredibly well.
Chris:It, it really was an example, I think of one plus one equals three in
Chris:terms of the coalitions and, and you mentioned some of the key players.
Chris:I felt like this last session they have, they've never been more
Chris:coordinated and just closely linked and, they just worked really well
Chris:together and I think that's a big reason why we had such a great session.
Chris:Well, working effectively in a coalition is absolutely irreplaceable.
Chris:I also will, perhaps insufferably remind or assert that having a strong association
Chris:is not essential.
Chris:Well, that's where the center of Gravity was.
Chris:And so I think that's probably, I should have said this.
Chris:I think that's been another change is that, 'cause those
Chris:organizations always, you know.
Chris:Mostly played well together in, in the Sandbox, but I think they were more close
Chris:mo, more closely coordinated, sorry.
Chris:And, and the center, which is the state association, it really
Chris:was the center of gravity in a way that it hadn't been before.
Chris:Yeah.
Chris:which is probably why, the coalition works so well together.
Chris:So no doubt.
Chris:I mean, what you're saying is absolutely right.
Chris:I think it's kind of a broad, broad thing as well, because if you look at the
Chris:center, it originally wasn't a membership association and it had just a few funders
Chris:on their board and, and those funders, they're probably gonna be watching
Chris:this and, Hey guys, I love you too.
Chris:You made amazing efforts.
Chris:Again, no disparaging of the past.
Chris:Mm-hmm.
Chris:But it was not set up.
Chris:To really leverage, you know, the broad, the broad capacities of, of,
Chris:the Tennessee Charter school community and the center has further to go.
Chris:I mean, we need to get more members and all of that stuff, but I just think
Chris:we're seeing now in Tennessee for the first time, what can really happen when,
Chris:you know, a center comes together with an, with its members as an anchor, then
Chris:really working well with the likes of SCORE and Tennessee and for student
Chris:success, Tennessee can and all of that.
Chris:And I would throw in the parent groups.
Chris:I mean, propel.
Chris:Oh yeah.
Chris:I mean, they, they were up at the capitol.
Chris:You know, it's one thing to have the day on the hill, which I think is
Chris:important and good, but I also think it's easy when legislators know it's
Chris:just one day to kind of like politely nod their heads and kind of blow
Chris:you off and never talk to you again.
Chris:Well, we knew that wasn't gonna be enough.
Chris:We needed to do that, but, and we did, but we had parents and, and really propel,
Chris:and, and Lyft had parents up there.
Chris:yeah.
Chris:On a weekly basis, you know, so it wasn't just, I'm gonna
Chris:nod and never see you again.
Chris:It's, Hey, we're gonna talk about this issue right now and I'm gonna be back
Chris:here in two weeks to talk about it again and hold your feet to the fire.
Chris:And having, you know, Sonya Propel and, and Sarah at Memphis Lift
Chris:Yeah.
Chris:Part of the coalition.
Chris:I think, that, that was a huge difference maker too.
Chris:Well, let's shift a little bit to your role in, in Texas.
Chris:I think that, You know, T-P-C-S-A story in, in Texas is one of the
Chris:most important, advocacy success stories of the last decade.
Chris:It's resulted in us having this, you know, very strong leader Starly
Chris:at the, at the National Alliance.
Chris:there were all sorts of things that came together to take what had been an
Chris:organization that was an effective one.
Chris:But took it to whole other levels of, of impact.
Chris:and you know, my, my recurring mantra here is that our state associations are,
Chris:can be no stronger than our boards are.
Chris:And I find it weird as, as a movement, we've recognized that the weakness in our
Chris:boards at the CMO level and the school level has been an obsession of ours.
Chris:I mean, there are cottage industries of people that help with this,
Chris:law, firms that specialize in it, nonprofits that have been set up.
Chris:To do exactly that work.
Chris:And there's been essentially no investment in the governance
Chris:of, of our state associations.
Chris:Mm-hmm.
Chris:And, you know, again, not disparaging the past, but the strength of the board.
Chris:Of the Texas Public Charter School Association and CSN, its C four
Chris:partner was way stronger five years after you got on that board than
Chris:you know when you started there.
Chris:And now you're on, on there as a board chair.
Chris:I mean, first of all, thank you.
Chris:Thank you.
Chris:I mean, just state, state association board chair and a great board member, I,
Chris:there's very few things you can do that have greater leverage, but what would
Chris:you, how would you summarize your learning experience across those five years?
Chris:and what could you share with others a encourage them to do what you're doing
Chris:right now, but also to do so with perhaps some, some acumen that they might not
Chris:have, you know, given, given what you've been able to to see in your years there.
Chris:Sure.
Chris:well, I think the first thing I'd say is that, serving on both boards,
Chris:the one in Texas and Tennessee at the association has probably been some of the
Chris:most rewarding board service I've done.
Chris:And if you would've asked me.
Chris:Five or six years ago heading into it.
Chris:I would not have guessed that.
Chris:So it's been
Chris:You made my month, Chris.
Chris:Thank you for that.
Chris:It's been incredible.
Chris:I would point to a few key things in, in Texas, I mean, first
Chris:of course was, hiring starley.
Chris:I mean, leadership is incredible and her leadership was transformational.
Chris:But I'll never forget, there was a conversation we were probably
Chris:about a year into, Her being the CEO and it was a board retreat.
Chris:And it was at that meeting where, there was some tension inside the organization
Chris:about, member services and advocacy.
Chris:And it was at that meeting where basically we were, the board was like, look, this
Chris:needs to be an advocacy org full stop.
Chris:And Starley was kind of like, thank you for saying that.
Chris:'cause that's what I've thought.
Chris:so we kind of like.
Chris:Took the shackles off and let her do her thing.
Chris:And so we just realized like being a great state association means winning in Austin.
Chris:That's period.
Chris:That's it.
Chris:And and the member services stuff, there's other nonprofits that can fill those gaps.
Chris:That's not something that the Association, association can be
Chris:be, you know, best in class at.
Chris:And so that sort of strategic shift was massive.
Chris:And then once we made that shift, we just like did the work to kind of.
Chris:You know, operationalize that.
Chris:I think, and this is something that I would not have known five years ago, but
Chris:just the power of the C four in the pack.
Chris:Yeah.
Chris:And, and what that's meant.
Chris:and so when you can couple that with some sort of campaign around, reaching out
Chris:to, you know, registering even, Charlie Charter affiliated, whether it's teachers,
Chris:parents, like that just creates a, like virtuous cycle that's pretty unmatched.
Chris:And, I would say we went from an organization that didn't really
Chris:matter in Austin when it came LED session time to one of the most
Chris:feared and respected in the state.
Chris:And what I, the other thing I've learned in politics is that if you're
Chris:not feared, you're not respected.
Chris:And.
Chris:Their, this association's feared and respected and we, we, we were
Chris:never sitting at the big kid table.
Chris:you know, or at the adult table.
Chris:We were at the kid table.
Chris:Yeah.
Chris:And so we we're sitting at the adult table now with the governor, with the
Chris:lieutenant governor, with the speaker, and with the people that matter.
Chris:And, it, it makes being the board chair fun and pretty easy
Chris:job because the staff's so good.
Chris:So I'd say focus on advocacy over membership services, C fours, pacs.
Chris:How important they are.
Chris:that those three things have been, I think, key, key milestones
Chris:in the evolution of, of the, of the association in Texas.
Chris:this will be a, a da a dicey question to include in this one,
Chris:but here's my question for you.
Chris:I think that the Texas Public Charter School Association,
Chris:association and CSN were primary Republicans who weren't supportive
Chris:before the governor began Primary.
Chris:Where do you think the governor learned, what, what he might
Chris:be able to get done here?
Chris:You're right, Jed.
Chris:I mean, I think, you know, in that same conversation where we were, where we
Chris:were talking about just this tension between advocacy and member services,
Chris:we talked about how we're, we're not gonna be feared and respected unless
Chris:we make some examples of people.
Chris:And, and that was, gosh.
Chris:I can't remember the year, but that was pretty early on in starling's tenure.
Chris:And and they did, and you're right.
Chris:I mean, and I think when we, when we kind of like primaried and won
Chris:the first couple races, that's when people were kind of like, wait, this
Chris:is not my grandfather's association.
Chris:This is new.
Chris:and so, and it was kind of like off to the races from there.
Chris:you know, Ryan Hector, who was on the team was kind of, yeah.
Chris:The brains behind a lot of this and was, you know, phenomenal.
Chris:I think he's doing some work with Scarley now.
Chris:not at, you know, at the federal level.
Chris:but it was just, you know, her ability to kind of find some, again, it is what
Chris:we all know, leadership, building a great team, you know, being goals focused.
Chris:A board that kind of like kept people focused.
Chris:I mean, I remember you and I having like.
Chris:You know, our dozen, dozen conversation about the dashboard and finally we got
Chris:it and had something to like, you know, hold, hold the team accountable to.
Chris:And you know, everything just kind of started working from there.
Chris:And it was, it was really fun to be a part of it.
Chris:Yeah.
Chris:Well, I know I'm insufferable, on, on no way man.
Chris:Persistence
Chris:matters,
Chris:but hey, I'm gonna say I think the Texas PU Charter School Association.
Chris:Had the best dashboard in the country.
Chris:Yeah.
Chris:and you might be
Chris:the best state association in the country.
Chris:Right,
Chris:right.
Chris:No, it's did amazing, amazing stuff.
Chris:And you know, when you say that your experience over the last five
Chris:years has been, some, some, some of the work that you've done on state
Chris:association boards is some of the most, meaningful that you've done.
Chris:I mean, this music to my ears because it just allows me to say with greater
Chris:confidence, Hey, if you're not on the board of your state association, but
Chris:you're a great leader and you've got swagger and you're doing great with kids.
Chris:Come get on these boards and you can make a difference.
Chris:And by the way, we've learned enough about what the work of these
Chris:organizations is, as is expressed by their dashboards, you know, such that
Chris:you can come on and become a great board member in probably six months,
Chris:whereas a few, you know, a decade ago, it would've taken you three or four years.
Chris:To start to understand this stuff and, you know, you have helped build an example at
Chris:Texas that, everybody's learning from you.
Chris:Thank you for being on the board chair.
Chris:You know, I'm gonna try and, you know, send you invites.
Chris:Hey, can these people come and invite your, attend your board meetings?
Chris:Can these two or three people, these three, or every
Chris:time you guys get together?
Chris:When I was invited, I learned so much and I think others would as well.
Chris:And you've been stewarding that.
Chris:I mean, Elizabeth that, the Tennessee Association and Jamie
Chris:Simmons who chairs that board, they came to our last board meeting.
Chris:I I gave them the, you know, the pre-read materials just so they
Chris:can see the quality of what, the board gets before the meeting.
Chris:And, I think, being able to spread that love and have
Chris:other people benefit from that.
Chris:I mean, the work that Natalie and the team are doing there is phenomenal.
Chris:Starling was absolutely the right leader at the right time,
Chris:to kind of like make the pivot.
Chris:I think Natalie's absolutely the right leader now and the fact we've gotten
Chris:this like incredible too for, Starly working federally to do great work there.
Chris:And now, Natalie in Texas, I mean.
Chris:It's, it's worked out better than anyone could have imagined.
Chris:Well, after Starley was identified or after she would had been hired and
Chris:all that, we saw each other for the first time and we, we happened to be
Chris:like, on opposite sides of a room.
Chris:and we ended up crossing to each other.
Chris:And literally, Chris, I mean, I said Starly.
Chris:What am I gonna say to you?
Chris:And she said, you're gonna tell me that I need a dashboard.
Chris:And so, you know, and she's off to the, you know, because she understands the
Chris:work at whole other levels, you know, that's why she's just poised to be.
Chris:an incredible leader for us, at the national level.
Chris:Alright, let's, let's wrap this up and like, just let's look to the future here.
Chris:what do you, I mean the swagger stuff certainly, you know, implies
Chris:what you're thinking about for, but hey, you're, you're, you're 55 years
Chris:old, you know, Don, Don, you know.
Chris:Did it to 79 and you know, if an illness hadn't, you know, caught him,
Chris:he probably would've done it to 99.
Chris:I think we have too many of our people, you know, that have left at the
Chris:age of 55 and we want them to come back.
Chris:If there's anything, you know, I would just say is, Hey barbecue, you
Chris:have made a lifetime's worth of, of contributions, you know, by the age of
Chris:55, but we're now expecting, you know, another, a big chunk of time outta you.
Chris:I mean, what do you do next?
Chris:Well, thanks for saying that, You know, I mean, I love my work at City
Chris:Fund right now, so, I feel like, you know, I wanna stay here as long
Chris:as it'll have me, because, you know, it's this great mix of, I feel like,
Chris:I feel like I'm at this age now.
Chris:You know, my wife and I were talking about this recently, where, you kind of
Chris:reached this point where you just wanna like, give everything you know away.
Chris:I mean, when you're like.
Chris:Striving and in your thirties and forties, you know, you're trying
Chris:to compete, you know, sometimes you like hold things close to the vest,
Chris:like I'm way past that point now.
Chris:So just being able to like, work with younger, you know, leaders, newer
Chris:leaders, mentor them, just share with them like the, the wins, but more
Chris:importantly, all the things I screwed up.
Chris:I, man, I could do that till forever.
Chris:I mean, I just love, I love doing it and there's so many great people.
Chris:This next generation leader is doing this work.
Chris:and this job affords me the opportunity to do some of that.
Chris:I get to serve on boards like we talked about.
Chris:that feels like a, a pretty high leverage spot.
Chris:so, I'm just trying to, you know, give away as much as I can, whether
Chris:it's knowledge or, our resources at City Fund to help local leaders,
Chris:you know, create more great schools.
Chris:it's super rewarding work and, I, man, if this is, if this is the last chapter,
Chris:it's, it's, it feels like a pretty privileged one and, a huge opportunity.
Chris:So, really, really, really grateful for that too.
Chris:Sounds like a great platform from which to be a swagger ambassador.
Chris:Exactly.
Chris:and, yeah, just kind of like, yeah, maybe the Johnny Apple see the swagger.
Chris:I can just kind of like one school leader at a time.
Chris:and, I've been trying to do that.
Chris:I think, you know, the seeds are starting to take root like we talked
Chris:about, so I'll, I'll be excited when we have a forest of, of swagger and trees.
Chris:All across the country.
Chris:So, that's what I'm looking forward to doing.
Chris:Well, I don't wanna be too obsequious here.
Chris:I, Starley said in, in our recent chat that, she believed that there had
Chris:never been as much alignment between the funders and our advocates about
Chris:what we need to do, what the structure is, that, that we have right now.
Chris:And, and I think City Fund.
Chris:Is a very key part of this.
Chris:I mean, you know, you know, I give you guys a hard time on stuff and,
Chris:and sometimes people tell me, cool it, man, you're like, but I'm
Chris:gonna keep being insufferable.
Chris:But in the macro, in the macro, the, the risk for funders, or for funding,
Chris:you know, funding organizations is that they, they move from swagger into hubris.
Chris:And there's just something about, I mean, Reed's been doing this for so long.
Chris:I don't know if you listened to John Arnold, you know, on the recent
Chris:podcast when he was on, when he was on with Tyler Cowen and he was also on
Chris:with, what was he on with Peter Atia?
Chris:I don't know.
Chris:But you know, when he is talking about the education work.
Chris:It's, there's just no hubris there.
Chris:Right.
Chris:You know, it's, this is hard.
Chris:This is difficult.
Chris:we're making a difference.
Chris:We wish we could make a, a, a difference even faster than
Chris:we're, than we're going right now.
Chris:But we're staying this course.
Chris:We're staying this course, and there have been so many others in the landscape.
Chris:That have just like Johnny come lately, they come and they go, right?
Chris:Mm-hmm.
Chris:and it seems as though both for yourself, you know, and the, and the organization
Chris:you're now working in, you have a chance to just stay focused and, and grow impact,
Chris:with that tone of swagger you're talking
Chris:about.
Chris:Well, you're right, and we're, we're fortunate to be able to do that.
Chris:I mean, we we're definitely playing the long game.
Chris:Our board allows us to play the long game.
Chris:They're committed to the long game.
Chris:When you're playing the long game, I think it just gives you a space to build
Chris:different, more trusting relationships with the people that you're working with.
Chris:which in the end of the day, I think leads to a better chance for better results.
Chris:And so, it's, and we're lucky to have board members like Reed and John who,
Chris:afford us the opportunities to do that.
Chris:So, yeah, man, I feel like I'm kind of in the catbird seat in this, spot
Chris:I'm in right now, and I just want to.
Chris:Use it to do as much, good work and have as much of an impact as I can.
Chris:That's awesome.
Chris:Well, until playing the long game.
Chris:If we're, if we are actually a movement, and we're gonna sustain the work over
Chris:multiple generations, then we've gotta do a great job of, of celebrating those
Chris:that went first and having a great hall of fame and those kinds of things.
Chris:So, you're, you're serving as that example for so many of us now, and, I
Chris:just don't wanna let you off the hook.
Chris:Yeah.
Chris:Even an incredible example.
Chris:But, you know, I wouldn't be surprised if you might look back and
Chris:say the next decade is as high of impact as you've had anywhere else
Chris:in, in your, in your, your career.
Chris:And, you know, just beat on me, merciless mercilessly, if there's something that I
Chris:can do to be helping you or you see, you know, where CharterFolk and my work can,
Chris:can align with, with a swagger agenda.
Chris:Because, I really think you put your, your, your finger
Chris:on something important here.
Chris:Gosh, Ted, I hope you're right.
Chris:I mean, there is gonna be, I think, tons of disruption in our world the next
Chris:decade, which, you know, we both know, Indus in disruption lies opportunity.
Chris:I think there's lots of opportunity.
Chris:our kids deserve it now they're counting on us.
Chris:So, I hope, you know, we can do one of these 10 years from now, and talk
Chris:about all the kickass schools that have gotten started in the last 10 years.
Chris:So I can't wait.
Chris:All.
Chris:That's great.
Chris:Well, Chris, thanks again for spending this time.
Chris:Congratulations again.
Chris:It couldn't be earth for you.
Chris:Appreciate it.
Chris:Thanks for having me.
Chris:Take care.
Chris:Bye.
