Often, the group that tries to be all things to all people is going to fail. So, is the managed Security Service of the future going to be more about subcontracting and strategic partnerships?

On this week’s show, we’re joined by Mark Ledlow and Patrick Kane to look at the way in which physical security/EP fits squarely in the managed security service of tomorrow. As we dig into this, we’ll be asking:

• How has corporate security modernized over the last two years? What new offerings are we seeing?
• Are we starting to see a greater appetite at a corporate level for protective intelligence over an executive protection program?
• In an integrated solution with cyber colleagues, could physical security become the eyes and ears on the ground for a joint Intel group?
• What vital skill are security managers searching for that protectors are missing from their resumes? 

About Mark:

Mark is the Founder and CEO of Ledlow Associates LLC Holding Company of Ledlow Security Group, Providing Executive Security Services and Physical Security Risk Mitigation to Companies. Mark is a Speaker and the Host of The Fearless Mindset Podcast Marine Corps Veteran Risk & Security Advisor to Corporations Family Office.

Mark also Coaches Veterans transitioning from Military into the (Private Sector) Executive Security Services Industry or Business Ownership.

LinkedIn

About Patrick:

Partick is a Security professional specializing in the proactive protection of personnel and assets in a dynamic global environment. Extensive experience assessing and mitigating physical security risk and developing and establishing programs to safeguard staff and company operations. On-the-ground experience in 70+ countries. International Executive MBA from Instituto de Empresa (Madrid). Certified Protection Professional (CPP), Board Certified in Security Management.

Author of the book Practical Security Training - published by Butterworth Heinemannn - 1999.

LinkedIn

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there's a degree of specialization in these things.

And sometimes the group that tries to be all things to all

people, uh, is gonna fail.

So I think a lot of it's gonna be about subcontracting and strategic partnering

This week for the circuit magazine podcast, we're gonna

try something slightly different.

We're going to reflect on a recent session.

We ran with the one and only Patrick Kane security director at Atlas air.

And mark led low founder of led low security group at the managed security

services forum, Los Angeles county.

Why are we doing this?

It was actually a really engaging session where we looked at exactly why executive

protection and corporate security are going to have to be at the heart of any

new managed security service program.

And at first you might think, yes, of course.

And we're a little biased.

However, because of the economies of scale that managed security service, uh,

providers offer, it's only natural that you're going to effectively outsource.

Now it doesn't mean that you have to become a hacker.

It just means that perhaps if your client wants a particular

service, you know who to call, many of you are not TSCM specialists.

And many of you will bring in that expertise.

now, it doesn't have to be anything too complex.

It could just be a partnership to begin with.

However, in the future, the managed security service that people know of.

Truly cyber is going to have to face up to the physical reality

of the world in which they live.

So all in all, I hope you like today's session.

I think it brings something slightly different to the podcast.

Of course, we are going to be doing the thematic interviews and exposes

on many, many topics that keep you the listener awake at night, but please.

Do let us know how this goes.

So let's get into it.

Let's talk with Patrick Kane and mark led low, and let's look at the way in which

physical security EP fits squarely in the managed security service of tomorrow.

We've delighted to welcome patrick Kane, senior director of secured at Atlas

air mark Ledo on Leto security group, and I hope to shed some light on the

modernized physical security service, the modernized corporate security service

and get people thinking in terms of risk management rather than, cybersecurity

specifically, how's it been going?

Patrick.

It's

excellent.

I'm always interested in having a little bit of an understanding of

cyber, one of these things where I'm sure I won't ever be an expert at it,

but at least having a little bit of understandings were always helpful.

Absolutely.

And, uh, and, and, and the same for you, mark, how's it been.

Yes.

You know, as eye opening, knowing where the future is in security, there's so many

experts that you have on your program, on the panels that it's like, oh, it's just

not a, it's not just a bodyguard business.

It's not just an ex exactly protection industry.

It's so much deeper that so much more intrinsic.

And, uh, there's so many variables that cover the word

security in the corporate arena.

And, you know, beyond the obvious the fact that, it security will need

some kinetic response at some time, for some reason, uh, not least if we do

move into the current economic climate.

Let's say we are not allowed to say recession.

Um, you know, you're going see the need to work with your physical security partners.

So let's paint a picture, um, and I'll start with you, mark.

Just to, to help our cyber colleagues see some synergy.

How has corporate security modernized, especially over the last two years?

Has there been in new offerings, especially when corporate

security wasn't allowed in the office, wasn't allowed to travel.

Yes, like night and day difference.

You know, I think the, the awakening for me was when I attended not to plug

antic for example, but I was at the conference and also following LinkedIn,

I'm seeing a lot of corporate, uh, roles for protective intelligence,

more roles in that role versus building executive protection program.

and I think what's happening is, is taking place is, you know, they have to

justify to their shareholders why they need an executive protection team or

protective, uh, protective security team.

They have to, you know, that comes out of the bottom line of that corporation.

And if they can do intelligence enough with data numbers and facts

to show proof, Hey, this is why we need to protect our CEO or C-suite

because these numbers, these.

Materials show us.

These are the forecasts in this industry that we're in.

And I think that's the.

The new era of security and cyber as well.

Cyber is right there.

It's, you know, we got, we have more cyber attacks internationally than we

do have bumps, you know, going on cause cyber, you know, you go in the dark

web and you could be coming anybody you want and everything's up for a price.

It's the dark web, you know, auctioning off for threats, whether

it's utility grids, whether it's water, whether it's, uh, branding

threats to corporation branding.

There's so many things.

The bodyguard, which world, where I come from.

So that's kind of what I'm seeing is protective intelligence is

the future of physical security.

Absolutely.

If you imagine all these executives, um, ranging from tech bros, uh, maybe there's

not so many crypto billionaires anymore, but you know, people who just realizing

that they need to protect their person.

And they're like, wait a minute, but I've spent all this on cyber.

But, but, but now I need to protect cargo.

I need to protect people.

Um, Patrick, do you think people are, are waking up to this?

Cause as far as I understand, Patrick, there is a big, shortage

of EP personnel and, and other physical security in the states.

Yeah.

I think in general, two of the things we've seen out of, uh,

co of the, the whole pandemic.

Has been, uh, in terms of opportunities.

I think we've highlighted for our stakeholders.

The impact a crisis is able to have.

So I think there's.

A kind of new appreciation of the safety and security function within

organizations that perhaps I won't say it was absent before, but I don't think

the impact was as clearly understood.

But now after having a global event like we've had with the pandemic,

I think every everybody's been impacted in some shape or form.

So I think there's a greater stakeholder understanding.

Of the importance of our function.

Uh, I think in terms of challenges though, um, there are quite a few, I mean, you

have the, the obvious ones that we've had in COVID, but there've also been

a lot of second order ones in terms of the economic impact here in the United

States and overseas all over the world.

And as end result the impact, you've seen a civil unrest and protest.

Uh, increased crime and so on.

And to your, your, your, uh, question about EP personnel and just in

general personnel, I think there's been a concern about capabilities.

Um, we're clearly overall in a situation where there's a, a shortage of employees,

uh, across a variety of separate sectors.

So being able to find people and find quality people.

I think it's probably more challenging than it's ever been before.

Uh, now we have workforces which are dispersed where we

have, uh, hybrid environments.

We have people at home who otherwise were in the office and what's the

responsibility of an organization now to be concerned about the individual

safety and security and situation of each of those employees in their, in their

separate home, home offices and so forth.

And then as far as, as overseas as well too, I mean, understanding that we have to

support operations overseas, what impact has this had on our, our, our providers?

Do we need to stop back?

And we talked about this before in other other particular forms and so forth,

but do we need to stop back and evaluate our providers, our transportation

security and our hotels and so forth in other areas and make sure they still

have the capabilities that they had prior to, uh, 20, 20, early, 20, 20?

Yeah, absolutely.

Now we can be very sure there are no safe.

Locations, right.

We know what is a hot zone and we know what is not a hot zone.

Okay.

That much is clear, but truly safe.

When, when in the middle of the last two years, maybe a, uh, doctor

would not be available in a major European city that that's new.

You know, lots of things to think about and people might say, well, hang on.

Why are we talking physical security at an MSS event?

And what I like to always do is to say, think more broadly, MSS.

I know there's difference between the managed service provider who is often

constructed by a business person.

They want to provide someone's it.

I get it.

And the MSS, it's someone that's been, you know, through the ranks of cyber

and InfoSec and they, they they're building out a specific service, but

at the end of the day, it's a service.

It's a value added reseller.

So you don't necessarily do your own pen testing.

You farm it out to someone you don't necessarily, uh, uh,

install your own CCTV cameras.

You might work with a third party and with the advent of biometric CCTV identity act

identity, access management merging with a lot of physical security technology,

there are it managed those providers that are offering physical security solutions.

And there are some of the big physical security, uh, EP even

providers who are now offering cyber.

Okay.

So I push back on the notion that we shouldn't talk about it because

it's just another revenue stream.

It's just another string to your boat.

So there's no reason why you might can't partner with a cyber, uh,

MSS and, and, and offer that.

Um, there's no reason why they can't partner with you and offer your services.

Um, I, I I'd be interested in your thoughts for the future of that mark.

It's gonna be, uh, well, if I had a crystal ball, it'd be a billionaire.

And so I don't, but what I see happening.

domestically, we have the midterm elections, of course.

And we have a polarized country is what the media tells us.

The media tells us we have a polarized society, which is calling this rift, but

if you talk to people around the country, you know, we're more unified than ever.

And so it's, uh, propaganda, you know, that's a threat now propaganda machines

where they're coming from foreign ages.

We don't know, we have to talk to the CI folks over there and,

and, you know, NSA folks to figure out what's really going on.

But I think we have a false sense of what's really happening around the world.

And we're only told so, so much source information from our media outlets.

You know, that's one issue that we have, we have, you know, it's gonna

be a call it the summer rage from a physical standpoint, and they have

a lot of site security needs here.

Uh, as far as cyber goes, I think that's gonna be an ongoing thing.

We probably put that in propaganda, you know, cyber security type of thing.

And I think, I think the win for the industry is gonna

be protective intelligence.

I think if we can master our intelligence master.

Uh, the information coming across desk, we can make accurate forecast

on where we need to, uh, mitigate risks where those risks are, you know,

protests, Rio, supply chain issues.

I'm hearing we're gonna have food shortages in the future.

Because the shortage of beef is that propping yet?

I don't know.

I'm not a farmer.

I don't, I don't sit on the agriculture board, so I don't know, but there's

a lot of information being fed to us.

My question is, is it true information?

Is it real?

And that's why protective intelligence is so needed right now.

I think that's why corporations are going that direction because

they go, well, we see value there.

They'll see more value there.

And like Patrick said, you gotta protect, you know, the stakeholder's

interests in, you know, in the company and the brand protect that.

And so I see, um, just branding, you know, had social media issues.

And if you're a corporate, you know, entity and you have kids and you're,

you know, high net worth family, let's say you're the CEO of X, Y, Z company.

And your kids are all over social media.

And, you know, doing updates, like the Kardashians of where you're

going, you know, you'd create yourself a target, especially you're

down in Mexico where the cartel, and then not only mentioned cartel.

We had this thing called, you know, they're lacing the drugs.

And I just had a, a conversation with a buddy of mine who

was overseeing the hotel.

In this, uh, gas at the hotel overdosed on marijuana, because it was laced with

the stuff fentanyl from over in China.

And that stuff's making its way into our country right now.

It's going all over the place and it's, uh, it's a, it's an absolute, it's a war.

It's a war on drugs.

And, um, Michael or not.

Yeah, it's, uh, it's here.

And so we have so many things coming, you know, so many different

weapons being weaponized against us.

If you're overseas, you got, you know, you're trying to survive

in your Ukraine with that.

And Europeans are trying to figure out what's going on.

There's so much stuff.

And, uh, you know, cyber's one, but we, what, what great thing

about security is we, so I have so.

Experts in their, uh, geniuses that they know how to play this.

The game of protecting our infrastructure.

You have cyber, you have intelligence, you have, you know, bodyguards and

you have, you know, supply chain, I think supply chain's gonna be a

very big issue on the next wave of COVID, you know, in the next way.

The mutations gonna be a thousand mutations.

And I, you know, I was down with Phillip for two months.

And, uh, you know, whether you, you get the vaccine or do

you believe the vaccine works?

You know, there's so many parallels that were being faced in the next couple years.

So we live in an interesting time and, uh, security is gonna explode.

I think it's gonna be

needed.

And specifically you raised that, that term protective intelligence.

And maybe that's the synergy.

That's the synergy because the cyber threat Intel.

Is applicable to a variety of scenarios, but what if protective intelligence

could be integrated maybe in a, so maybe, uh, travel risk intelligence

may be protest intelligence, maybe, you know, uh, there's plenty of,

uh, fraud investigations going on.

Yes.

There's some things people can do behind a desk, but sometimes they

send out a private investigator.

And who's that

, Mark Ledlow: you know, it's yeah.

Your investigation component.

Yeah.

Yeah.

We just did a huge job.

It was about three weeks job doing surveillance up in Portland.

And we had four, four people on that team, 12 hour shifts,

and I'm like, holy cow protect.

Uh, detective workers is really skyrocketing.

Investigations is blowing up and, you know, investigations on

pharmaceutical supply chains going on.

That's gonna be a big need, I think.

Cause they're gonna have to ramp up, you know, medications and stuff for every.

And something that's not being talked about right now is the

shortage of medical staff and nurses, supporting people are getting sick.

There's a big shortage of nurses and doctors out there throughout

the United States, huge shortage and PE and people are just burned

out because of, we just have COVID.

And so nobody's really talking about that, that issue yet.

Everybody's kind of letting that kinda lie down and it's kind of being quiet.

No one wants to address it.

But, you know, the next way we have of infections and all that is gonna blow

the whole medical world upside down.

So, so sort of following up on that, um, But not with the

medical component so much, but, but Patrick, do you, do you think that

physical security is going to be a lot more in demand because maybe,

maybe a cyber sock will say there's an incident or we're being attacked.

Uh, why?

And, and yes, there's international state actors and we won't be able to

find out why, and then this nation states and that's a, a real issue.

But do you think that increasingly physical security will.

The boots on the ground, you know, like let's send them out.

There's, there's a protest happening.

Well, is there, you know, there's three people with black cards.

I think increasingly we're seeing an overlap.

I think it's already happening.

I think it's gonna happen even more in the future.

I mean, I think you, you, you hit an important aspect film when you

mentioned about the, uh, increasing, um, Requirements, uh, of, of it knowledge

when you look at security technology.

So like when you're looking at camera systems and things like that, if

you were to go back 20 years, it wasn't as much of an issue, but now

if you're involved in that space, you need to understand the kind of

cyber aspects of that as well, too.

And you need to understand there's potential compromise of, of those

systems on the cyber side as well.

So I think for the, the practitioner in the physical space, you need

to have an understanding of that.

And I.

The, um, we were speaking earlier about EP and the EP aspect of it.

I think one of the things as we start looking at smart homes and smart

cars, and some of these other things, there are vulnerabilities now that

exist, that didn't exist before.

And I think for providers who are protecting individuals who are at

risk, either because of their income level or their public profile,

I think we need to be concerned.

The exploitation of those, um, smart homes and smart cars and so forth as

a possible vector for somebody to, uh, inflict harm on that, on that person.

Uh, as far as the security element or physical security element being,

um, Being kind of on the ground.

Yes.

I mean, I think, I think there's also a lot of opportunity for a

sharing of intelligence between the cyber and physical sides.

And there was an organization, uh, that, um, that I was in, in

contact with speaking with that actually has a joint Intel group.

So there's like a physical component.

A cyber component, but on intelligence, there's like a shared group and they,

um, they, uh, exchange information on, on the Intel side, particularly

for areas which are overlapping, both the cyber and physical.

So I think this is something we're gonna see only, only increasing.

And I think, um, That's why it's helpful for us to have

a, an understanding of cyber.

You know, it doesn't have to be in depth, but at least understanding

at the 40,000 foot, uh, scale.

And then for our cyber colleagues to have some understanding of, of our operations

as well too, I, I had the opportunity to go speak at a cyber conference.

In early April.

And, uh, after I was through with the presentation, I was having a few cyber

conversations and people were commenting on how many facets of the corporate

side or physical side that they were not aware of or didn't understand.

Uh, and they had more of a very, um, a very kind of, uh, uh, like

stereotypical image, I guess, of the physical side, without understanding

all the different, uh, aspects of it.

Yeah, the quote unquote knuckle drags.

Um, exactly which, which I think, I think, you know, the physical security

community has adopted endearingly about itself, but, uh, it was meant,

uh, maybe in a, in a different way.

Um, but, but I think this all makes business sense.

So for one, uh, it makes business sense that I can bundle physical security

solutions with my big Mac and fries.

No, with my, with my, uh, you know, with my cyber solutions,

it makes business sense.

Um, some people like in the physical security world, we, we

have heard anecdotally of large companies using EP as a wed.

To get a bigger contract for some other purpose.

Okay.

Whether that's true or not.

I don't know, but , it, it, it, it wouldn't be beyond the realms

of possibility for somebody to.

Use, let's say cyber pen testing to have a wider managed security

service through the door, which means that it's possible to go into a

corporation and say, do you know what?

Now I can have you covered from travel risk to reputational risk, to cyber

threat intelligence, to pen testing it.

And, and, and, and.

And, and also mark, you mentioned about propaganda but, I think you

will see fusion centers emerge and these fusion centers will be

closed and they'll be like, right.

So regardless of what the noise says, What's happening.

And then they will partner with a physical security.

I mean, is that happening even now?

Cause that, that makes business sense to me, mark.

Yeah, I'm hearing, that's what I'm hearing like the one stop shop.

I mean, that's what these fortune 100 to one fortune 500 companies

want, they want a one stop shop.

They don't wanna call three different vendors to.

Two different jobs to make it easier for that CSO.

They would rather make one phone call to that one company that could take

care of everything across the board.

And I, I don't know if companies have adjusted their technology.

I don't think they're there yet.

I think they're probably fighting it cuz they have the

old guard way of doing things.

And now, you know, we have everybody working remotely.

Well, there's a huge cyber crack right there.

If you're working remote.

We don't, you don't really know what that employee is doing

at home at the homework site.

You know, you can get, think they're doing everything on the corporate laptop, but

there's, there's chances for ESP there.

You know, they're working off a wifi from home.

How locked up is that wifi and, you know, people are, are continuing

to expand the home from work model.

And there's like, I know Jamie diamond came out and said, you're coming back to.

Tesla just, Hey, Hey, if you want a job, come back to work.

Otherwise you're, we're gonna let you go.

And so I think the one stop shop is the future of the industry.

And like Patrick was just saying, this is right now, you know, the manpower is

lacking cuz a people wanna go get sick.

Cause I was, uh, attached to be, um, support a, a certain bank

and we just couldn't find anybody that would, was willing to work.

Cause they didn't wanna get sick with.

And so that's gonna be an ongoing issue with the up and coming people

that work in the executive protection industry, they don't wanna get sick.

And then the other challenges, too, a lot of corporations are demanding that people

are vaccine, um, given that vaccine card.

And so a lot of people said, no, no things.

I don't want the vaccine.

So now we have the vaccine issue app, proving you have a shot.

They don't want the shot because they had their free choice.

And so that's, we're running into that for manpower.

And it's, uh, I think all the, you know, all the companies come choose from the

same pool of male and female EP agents.

They're all, you know, and then the, you know, the highest bidders gonna get the,

you know, the winning contract and then they're gonna pay the guards, what their,

you know, what that market value is worth.

But as far as going back to your original question, I think

is gonna be the one stop shop.

What, whoever that COSO can call.

And get services rendered for a quality price.

He's gonna go to them every time.

And I think it's gonna be up to these, you know, big companies, you know, we

have, I don't want any names on your program, but we know who they are.

Can they continue to deliver white glove service to these CSOs and youth corporate?

I don't know.

I think things will be changing, evolving, because cyber is rapidly

changing and we always have ongoing new risks, you know, something's happen.

Every day around the world.

So that's kind of my thoughts on that.

so, so we could see the one stop shop or we could see the value added

reseller network stop shop, where, uh, you know, and so maybe that's a good question.

Let's say Patrick, let's say there's a predominantly tech

based company that thinks, do you know what I need travel risk.

I need.

International cargo risk, you know, what should they know before approaching such

a provider to, to form a relationship?

Yeah, I think there's a mix.

I think you could argue either side of it.

I mean, I do agree that there's value to having a one single

point of contact, right?

I mean, from administrative stand.

Invoicing all sorts of other things at the same time.

I think we can, we can also agree that there's a degree of

specialization in these things.

And sometimes the group that tries to be all things to all

people, uh, is gonna fail.

So I think a lot of it's gonna be about subcontracting and strategic

partnering and somebody like, for example, mark, having a good

partner on the cyber side, he can.

When he has a client, who's got that interest.

Right.

So, so he doesn't have to take that on himself or try to learn that, you know,

he and I, we both come from a background where we started off or whatever shooting

guns, or smashing things, breaking things, but we have to know that there's

other things out there beyond that.

And we have to know the people we can call when the issue is an it issue.

And I think to your, your point about the pen testing, I mean,

I think that's one of the things the cyber world is excellent at.

And the question I have is why does it stop there?

I mean, why are we not looking at everything on the physical side

as well from that adversarial, uh, aspect or perspective?

So I think ultimately the idea is you still need to have special.

But maybe, um, through like strategic partnerships and subcontracting

and so forth, you can provide both a single, single contact point and

the expertise at the same time.

So maybe if we, if we draw some strings from all the things

we've been talking about today, maybe.

Okay.

So it's often said, oh no, uh, you wouldn't start off as an

oncologist and then become a GP.

And I, and that's what I don't think using a medical analogy is a good

thing with security because you, you have people who, who, who have been

in the special forces, it's their job and security is a second job for them.

It's not like that's the preparation course.

It's the way in which people enter into the system.

So we're not gonna get away from that.

But could we rather say that eventually we will see people.

Progress to a risk manager, not in an actuarial sense, not like the insurers

that that's their, that's their spiel.

That that's what they do.

But, but do you think as much as an EPA agent might gravitate towards

becoming a consultant and therefore an advisor that's the real convergence,

because you'll find yourself as a risk manager, perhaps among people who

have, who used to be in cyber mark.

Is that a possible future?

Yeah, I think that's where we're heading.

I mean, we have to look at, I mean, our biggest employers are corporate.

And that special forces guy, Al military guy or gal, they need to be

able to blend in that corporate culture and accept the corporate culture.

You just can't be, uh, a special forces Navy seal, and jump in with

random example, let's call it Intel.

And all of a sudden you have a job because you're a special forces.

You have to be able to blend in with that corporate culture.

And that corporate culture may be a little bit different from the military culture.

And I think that's, um, that's the, the changes in the ships we're seeing

right now in the industry is, uh, corporations are wanting people with

medical training and they want people that are, you know, risk adverse.

How, how are you gonna save me risk?

Are you a good report writer on threat or threat assessment and risk assessment?

When I go out and do a detail overseas, I had one, uh, senior level, uh, EP manager.

I'm not gonna name names, but that person asked me, um, the biggest, she told me

the biggest concern she has is a lot.

These EP agents don't know how to write reports.

They don't know, they know the hard skills, they know the soft skills,

but they don't know how to write a risk assessment or threat assessment.

And that's just part of the game.

That's one component of security and we have to also be, uh, aware,

not only are we into security, but now we're into safety safety.

As in we have diseases running around, are you.

Are you versed in OSHA disease, compliancy, stuff like that.

Are you into that?

And I think we're so used to shooting and moving and grieving and ex

getting our principal off the X.

There's a whole different expectations that corporations

have for their security program.

Yeah.

They may be called a risk mitigation guy or gal, but I think that terminology

to be accepted by corporate cultures changing too, they just don't

want you to be the EP guy for gal.

They want you to.

A more broader experience on a more world view of how their corporation works.

Cuz when you sit down on an interview and you're a vendor, they're

the first thing they're ask you.

What do you know about my company?

Oh, I don't know anything about your company.

I'm just a, I'm just a military guy.

What do you know about what is our mission?

What do we do?

What do we make?

And if you're a vendor, if you can answer that question, you

need, you need to sharpen your ax.

You need to sharpen your pistol and go to go study, go to work and find out

what are you doing in this industry?

Yeah.

This industry can be very lucrative and the money can be there.

You need to know more about your client than just, uh, yourself.

You need to study your client inside and out to find out where the risks are.

It's a great, great question.

Well then hopefully that's a good note to finish on because I think the risk

manager of the future is more accessible.

Isn't it?

It's just better as a trusted advisor, that terminology works across cyber.

It works across physical and yeah.

Value added reseller that works across physical that works across cyber.

And, and it just takes the sting out of the alien nature of some other people

and you know, people in cyber, you need to understand that even within

physical security, there's different, uh, communities that don't know each other,

like the loss prevention community.

Do not talk so much to executive protection.

Um, the gambling, uh, security community, very, very tight knit, uh, group.

Uh, don't talk so much to the healthcare security group.

Uh, don't talk to the maritime security group.

You know, it, it's not, it's not like alien, group are, are, are unusual.

They exist everywhere.

So perhaps by having a risk manager, a mindset, we can.

Or at least that's my hope.

Hope

so

oh, well, well, mark and Patrick, thanks for coming on let's give you

a big virtual rental applause of all.

Thank you.

Thanks.