Let's face it—the stereotypical image of builders often conjures up thoughts of a rugged, all-male group clocking off early to down a few pints at the local pub. While there’s nothing inherently wrong with bonding over drinks, this old paradigm doesn't necessarily cater to everyone's needs in today's society. It’s an image that fails to encapsulate the diverse talents and ideas that can propel our industry forward. 

Building a positive culture in the workplace is about more than just workplace perks; it's about creating an environment where everyone feels valued and motivated. Think about it: would you rather work in a place where every day feels like a chance to collaborate and grow, or a place where you’re just counting down the hours until the weekend?

Our conversation with Kaia left us feeling inspired about the future. Building culture is not a one-time effort but an ongoing journey that evolves with the people involved. We revisited the importance of learning from our past, as illustrated when Kaia shared his formative experiences at a Steiner school, which instilled in him the values of community and individual thinking.

Our takeaway? As we look to foster inclusivity and redefine what it means to "build," it’s crucial to listen and learn continually from those around us. Diversity goes beyond metrics; it’s about giving everyone a seat at the table. It's about creating an environment where every unique individual can thrive.

So, whether you’re just starting your career or you’ve walked the scaffold for decades, we encourage you to think deeply and live lightly. Let’s break the mold together and build an industry that reflects the diverse world we live in.

LINKS:

Thanks to Hip Vs Hype for having us

Connect with us on Instagram:  @themindfulbuilderpod

Connect with Hamish:

Instagram:  @sanctumhomes

Website:   www.yoursanctum.com.au/

Connect with Matt: 

Instagram: @carlandconstructions

Website:  www.carlandconstructions.com/

The reason why we wanted to get you back is that, you know, one of the, we didn't

really, we just needed someone to

come to the things that I've always said that I think you are really good at from

the outside looking in is really having like a great vision for your company.

Strong values, which then leads to good culture.

So today I think I really want to talk about, well, wilderness as a business.

I know we've talked about it before, but maybe just remind us and then.

How you then put together this, the, the vision that you've got for wilderness and

then partnering that with a good culture.

Well, it's funny, like talking about culture is something that I guess I didn't

really consciously do for a long time.

And it's something that has been a big topic of discussion both within

our team and also with other, other people in the industry at the moment.

And I feel like it's something that, um.

It probably does get overlooked

a lot.

And what, what do you, what is, sorry to interrupt.

What do you think right now, because I know you and I have, we, we were talking

about culture like at the same time.

Mm. Do you think there's been a shift somewhere in the industry

that's kind of led to that?

'cause there's, I can't put my finger on anything, but I know you and I have

probably come to it at the same time.

I honestly think that.

Uh, there has been a cultural shift in Melbourne especially.

Yeah, yeah.

Um, post covid, I think as well, plays into it where there is an expectation

of people going to work and it not just being a job that you have to

get X done by three 30 maybe, or four o'clock in our case, and, and go home.

You know, like it, there needs to be more.

Enjoyment, satisfaction, and

I want to use the word here, like collaboration and, um, and,

you know, connectivity between workmates, constantly learning.

Going back

at start, you said it's something that you didn't consciously do.

Did you previously not have culture?

No.

I, and, and I think Hamish nailed this at the start, where.

What I did and, and it was probably like it was subconscious at that point in

time, is set up really rigid frameworks about what the values are of our business.

What are they?

Sustainability is the praxis, it's the central thing that

ties everything together.

We're pushing, um.

Sometimes for our detriment, we're pushing, uh, as hard as we can.

We're not afraid to try new things.

Collaboration, another, you know, say it again, but something that is vital

and that's not just between our team.

The collaboration is also vital between all the stakeholders in a project.

Yep.

Um, we work very closely with, um, usually architects.

Um, most of Wilderness's work is, is, is, um, comes through.

Architects or designers, and then we work, you know, incredibly closely with them,

usually on pre-construction for, for, you know, sometimes up to two years kind

of thing before we even start on site.

So that, that, that's a huge one for

us.

You, you've said with culture and in our industry, in the building industry,

typically it's a manly environment.

It's the tradies, go to the pub after work.

That would've been the, the previous generation.

Culture is not just simply getting on the piss with the boys after work.

I just wanna explain that and have your thoughts on that.

Yeah, I, I think what we have tried to do, um, with Wilderness is be the

kind of antithesis to hyves trady culture that is, you know, often quite.

It's gross, you know?

Um, I'm not saying it all is definitely not.

Um, and if you had to put a percentage on it, what would you say?

I, I'm, I'm not, not in, come back for asking that questions.

Yeah.

Not in position to answer that, but honestly like we, we are trying to, you

know, engage with like-minded people.

Okay.

Would you say

you're in the minority then?

We are, yeah.

For sure.

And, and, and our team reflects that.

We've only advertised.

Four roles twice, and we've, we've only done that via Instagram.

Yeah.

And, um, everyone else has just kind of turned up, you know, and it, and,

and I think that what I was trying to kind of get to before is the,

the company values have subsequently attracted the right people and the

like-minded people that share similar views on politics, music, um, you know.

Culture and in, in, in general.

That's what's built kind of a really, really enjoyable place to work.

Politics

is a tough one too because in a society like today, it is fucking wild and it, I

feel like you can be level-headed and have a conversation about being quite center on

something, but generally a lot of people on site can be fully left or fully right

and they cannot come anywhere in between.

So how do you go about that then?

'cause politics is just like, on a building site, could go so

differently depending who you talk to.

There's always those people that you, you might just, um, like I'm

talking about maybe some, some different trades or subcontractors

that we work with where you, we purposely avoid conversations about.

And there, there, there they're also entitled to

their own.

And

that's the

thing.

Exactly.

Which is great.

Which is great.

Um, we, we, you know, that's part of diversity.

But, um, I think within our, within our team, and some of this might be,

you know, luck or chance, but I think it does tie back to those, those core

values of the business that then, you know, attract like-minded people.

Yeah.

We were a fairly young team too.

Like every, everyone is, you know, pretty similar.

Yeah.

Kind of in age and, um, I think that's, you know, we're, we're

all pretty, uh, frustrated with some of the decisions that.

Previous generations may have, uh, uh, made and, um, and we're,

we're always trying to look to, you know, better that and

yeah.

I wanna jump in on the age thing quickly because it's a really hard conversation.

'cause when you're higher, you obviously can't be ageist or anything like that.

You can't hold a grudge against anyone.

But the reality is like you have a team that has a great culture, and

I'll be open about this with my team, is like, when we're hiring, like I

wanna hire someone that's gonna fit with the age group of my people.

Because if I have a second or third year apprentice, it's quite quiet.

That's 20, 21 years old and all of a sudden I'm bringing in a 35.

That might be quite dominant.

How do you then bring that when that second or third year is telling

the first year what to do and then you, they're finally coming

outta their shell like it's a age.

I think age is a really important thing around culture to make sure

you have a mixed demographic of people externally, but internally.

Should be run the same.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Like I, I can probably just talk to my own experience there.

Like, I, I, I did my, um, you know, apprenticeship in my early twenties,

like classified, you know, like an adult apprentice at that point.

And I, you know, I quickly moved to start managing projects.

Yeah.

And I was the youngest.

Person in the team that I worked for then, and I was, you know, managing a, a

pretty significant project with tradies that were, you know, double my age.

And that was hard.

That was really, really hard.

Like, and you know, I got some pretty negative feedback at times and,

and you know, some hostility there.

Purely due

to age.

And also it is also you're young.

You dunno what you dunno it too.

So it just can quickly create this like, shit storm.

Yeah.

Yeah.

There was,

there was certainly tension.

Yeah.

I mean I still see a little bit of, today we've got Rory, who's a bit of

a young gun in my business and I know that, um, when he first started, like

he was a bit conscious about the age thing because he was telling people

that are twice his age what to do.

I, I just want to just circle like way back to wilderness.

The name, and I know we talked about this on a previous podcast, so like Wilden.

As Bilko.

Like when I first saw it, I just immediately thought that is a

person I never met you before.

Saw the name said that is a person that I want to be friends with, or

I'm gonna respect that business.

'cause it just gave me these connotations of.

Really positive things that I think would be value aligned with me.

Can you tell us just a little bit about like, where that name came from Yeah.

And where Wildness was born?

Yes, I remember it, uh, vividly when I was coming up with the idea of, of

starting, starting my own business, which was to, to be honest, never

really my intention as I was kind of moving through, um, my apprenticeship

and, and, and starting to, you know, manage projects and the like after it

and just being a, a, a carpenter, but.

When I. Did get to that point.

I was like, what's like my dream work that we could be doing?

And straight away I went to like building a boardwalk or a public toilet or a,

you know, or a, a wilderness experience in a national park for Parks Victoria.

Yeah.

Like, that was my, that was my dream.

And then when it came to the time where my accountant was like, all right, now

you have to register a business name.

Um, I went back to that and yeah, it was just wilderness just felt like

the perfect fit and, and somewhere that we still want to move, you know?

Um, I, I was with my business partner last week.

We went up to Bellingen and, um, we, yeah, we did this beautiful, you know,

walk beautiful through, uh, the, the, I think it's called Waterfall Way.

And, um, yeah, there was this amazing kind of, you know, commercial, uh, boardwalk

on, on the top of these waterfalls.

And I'm like.

I still really wanna do that.

So if anyone from, um, parks Victoria or any other, um, you know, uh, park

representation group in Australia, um, we're, we're, we are here.

You're the, you're the board.

You're just

through 40 pieces of paperwork to get on site.

Yeah.

And I, I'm bringing this up 'cause I, I mean, I know where

the name came from right.

And it probably circles back to, and there is a point for me going back there

because I firmly believe that you can't have a good culture unless you have.

A really crystal clear vision of what your business is, is for now

mine is to build beautiful, high performing energy efficient homes.

Just pretty clear of what I wanna do as a business.

And I think you naturally, when you put yourself out to the world,

when you have a clear vision, you're attracting those people.

Now, I was fortunate enough to meet someone who I've been following

on Instagram for a long time now.

One of your employees, Patrick.

Now, I immediately recognized him.

Can you meet everyone on Instagram?

They've met a lot of people on Instagram, but we happen to meet

outside the, the place where we're getting a four wheel drive service.

And your car's there today too.

I just found out we're all, there we're like-minded people driving Toyotas.

So just like reliable.

You guys are responsible worrying about sustainability driving diesel cars?

Yes.

Yep.

Yep.

That are gonna last forever.

Sorry, that are going to last forever.

Gotta be a smart ass.

Yeah.

Yeah.

It's, it's the

equivalent of a high performance home.

Yeah.

The high performance car.

Yeah.

Yeah.

It's

a high, high

performance

car.

But like, uh, guys like Patrick, who I follow on Instagram, you

know, I immediately knew that I would like him and I never met him.

Mm-hmm.

Right.

And then, you know, I, I look at Patrick and I look at his partner, you know,

they've got this cool thing going on and it just totally feeds into the

vibe that you are doing in wilderness.

And I think that right there.

Me knowing, meeting, meeting Patrick and, and knowing him

through his online presence and knowing that he works for you.

Uh, and then knowing you and your vision for the business.

It all makes sense.

Mm mm So all of that right there, it sort of solidifies why I don't think

you can really focus on having a good culture in your business if you don't

have a clear vision for your business.

Yes, exactly right.

And you having a clear vision for your business, doing

whatever it is that you do.

Like you've got this idea of.

You know, immersing yourself in nature, you're attracting those

people who share that vision.

Mm mm How much time do you spend on your vision?

Like, do you still work on it?

Not really, to be honest.

Like, I feel like that that was, um, that was incredibly, you know, formative

and early things that we did, and it's something that we are coming back to

now and, and we actually this week, um.

Speaking of the team and speaking of Pat, like Pat is the perfect

version of what I would want a wildness employee to be Cowboy boy.

Yeah.

Yeah.

He's amazing.

And, and you know, he's very, you know, he pushes me really hard.

He has.

Hit some incredibly difficult metrics.

Like we've done some projects where we've had, you know, um, we've tried

to recycle, um, to a hundred percent.

Wow.

You know, like, and which is borderline impossible.

It is impossible.

We found out it was impossible at that period of time.

Um, but you know, pat is just.

Absolutely determined.

And, and he just went that extra mile and he, he does that in

everything he does, whether it's, you know, a carpentry task or Yeah.

Taking the reins of sustainability on a project like he's pushing me.

And that's some of the things that I've seen him do in his own as

an Instagram account.

I think he's his own home.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I just, yeah.

Beautiful.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And a huge amount of the work that, that, that Pat does at his place is.

He's finding objects and yes, materials from site and transforming those.

One of his bench tops was broken tiles or, yep.

Broken something.

Jeez,

I think, I think it was, yeah, like A-A-A-A-A

broken kind of marble, crazy paper.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

It looked incredible.

Now I had a really interesting insight into your future recently.

Now you're doing tarot cards now.

I did tarot cards again.

I wish we had a crystal ball.

We're getting, sorry.

Sorry.

Not

future.

Not future.

Your past.

Your past.

Yeah.

Really interesting insight into your past.

So we happened to cross each other at the Pan Hill Pub.

Now I was there with Ben Russell from Goodbye Gas and Bre Energy, and

obviously we mutual friends and moons.

Is there.

And um, we just literally happened to be sitting on the next table

to you guys and you had like a party there for someone's birthday.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Now you were there with all your friends from Steiner.

I'm gonna go on the river saying that I went to a private school who happened to

drive past a Steiner school way back when.

Right.

And I probably was that kid, that fucking asshole who used to.

Look down or criticize or judge or whatever.

Mm. Like the Stein, it's quite a

classic.

Perfect

talk.

Exactly.

A hundred percent.

I went away from that.

Looking at how every single one of you interacted and the love that

all of you had for each other.

I don't wanna get too mushy.

Mm. But the connections that you guys had, that I can only put

down to the way that the Steiner.

Uh, environment operates 'cause you guys have the same class

the whole way through, right?

Yeah, that's right.

And Ben and I were talking about this afterwards and I

was talking to Lucy about it.

I go, I don't have, I, I've got a few really close friends I've got from

school, but it was almost as if like your whole fucking class was there.

Yeah, well, well actually, like most of those people on that day were,

were, you know, three or four or five years older than myself as well.

And I am.

So lucky and I, I really didn't realize how privileged I was going to that school

until I was pretty much leaving year 12.

Yeah.

Um, but, you know, the, the, the best part of, of that education and that,

that environment I went to the Melbourne Rudolph Steiner School in Warren Wood.

What's the difference?

It's a bit of a rabbit hole, but, um, Steiner education was, was, was

created by, um, Rudolph Steiner, uh, and Austrian, say intellect, who, who,

who you know, has a lot to answer for.

He, he, um, he was involved in creating biodynamics.

He has some absolutely insane architecture.

Um, our school, for example, the architecture of the school, like

each room is painted in specific colors to kind of help promote.

The, the learning and growth of, of children at those specific ages and points

in their life, things like, there was no, um, every single window, head and

door, head is on, not, not, not square.

Running, running at an angle.

There's a lot of kind of like subtle, um, philosophy that's put

into the, the education model.

It's not really preached at the, um, at the children.

You just kind of, you exist, rock up and exist in this, you know, is a learn.

Amazing, same.

I did VCE at that, at that school.

Um, which, which a lot of the other Steiner, um, schools do, um, what's

called a project for, for year 12, um, which a lot of universities

really like because, so that's

what Kyia did, didn't she?

Yeah.

Who works for me.

Yeah.

Kai works for you.

She, I think she, correct me if I'm wrong, I'm pretty sure she went to Little Yara,

which is a. Steiner School out in Yra Junction and they do a project and I've,

I've got quite a few friends who went to that school and it's pretty amazing.

'cause you any, as a year 12 student, you, you focus on a specific, what, what's the

example project that, um, yeah, like for example, like some of my friends, they

spend a year recording, uh, an album.

And they designed the record cover.

They, you know, they engaged with, you know, different teachers about skills

writing the lyrics, real life skills.

Yeah.

And, and it, it, it translates.

So I I, I'm incredibly lucky to, you know, the environment

that I, I was in at that school.

But it also did like, I'm actually wearing.

One of our new wilderness t-shirts right now, which on

the back of, I might have to do.

Yeah.

A 360.

No, we, we've had these for the last kind of six months, but, um, there's a,

there's a saying on the back of it, which was, was actually a bit of like a, a, a

saying from one of the school camps that we did in year nine, um, called Nun Gatta.

And it's live lightly, think deeply.

And like that just aligns so much with, you know, wilderness as a

philosophy, but also where I've come from and the education and

the people that I've been kind of surrounded by in, in my, in my past.

So, um, I think that.

Speaking of, you know, do you go back to the vision?

That's something I guess, you know, we, we revisited recently

and I brought the Steiner up specifically because I think it's also good to have

the history of you as the person who is setting the culture and setting

the vision of the business because.

You know, and it, and it's, I always find this kind of interesting where you're

kind of having like a fly on the wall.

'cause we were literally there amongst your mm-hmm.

Yeah.

It was, it was, it was funny.

I was kind of felt like I was between two.

It was awesome.

Right?

Like I felt, I didn't feel not for a second that we were excluded

from what was happening there.

And I bring it up because I think it is important for when you're talking

about culture, because now I then have an understanding of like where you've

come from and where your brain is at.

And what you are then trying to, um, produce for your team to operate with it.

It's, it's community, I think, and, and that's something that, you know, has

really been instilled in me, not just by my schooling, but also my parents.

Like my mom is, is a ma you know, incredibly well respected person in

her community and, you know, she, she's always kind of, you know, probably at

the detriment of herself being ever present for everyone in the community.

My, my mom has a, has a, a. Steiner shop.

Wow.

Actually.

Okay.

Um, uh, in the Dandenong Ranges.

In Callista, um, and that's a little like hub for all sorts of,

um, all sorts of the, you know, Steiner folk from all around.

Victoria Steiner's a really great

example of, of creating an environment where I guess different

thinking people can thrive.

Yeah.

Because if you, and we've talked about this before with new

diversities and stuff like that.

Yeah.

I've, I've got two sons.

One of them is on the autism spectrum.

The other one I feel is pretty bloody neurotypical as they come

and I look at Phoenix and I look at Darcy and I'm like, Phoenix would

thrive in the Steiner environment.

That sounds

awesome.

Whereas Darcy probably wouldn't need that structure of a

normal schooling environment.

Yeah.

Yeah, well, it, it definitely, like I can talk to that from, you know,

even my own family experience, like me and my brother two years apart.

And, um, yeah, Jara actually used to work for Ben Russell.

He's, he's a electrician now.

Uh, he, he, he works for himself now.

But, um, yeah, Jara and I, very, very different personalities and probably

some, some neurodivergency kind of.

Differences.

We're pro probably both on different ends of, of, of the spectrum there.

But Jara, you know, I think he.

He probably did need a little bit more of that structure or, or, or

potentially going and, you know, I've heard him say, you know, maybe leaving

school before VCE and going into his trade, which he would've, you know,

he, he's so well suited to that.

Um, you know, especially being an electrician, it's very, you

know, he's, he's very in, in this.

You know, little kind of structure box and, and, and he plays by the rules the

whole way, you know, and where, where I think I was a little bit more kind

of, you know, free and wild and weird.

Um, but, um, yeah, I think, you know, in hindsight, like I have heard him

kind of say like, yeah, may, maybe he would've, he, he, he could have benefited

from, from more kind of structure, routine and structure, but interesting.

Yeah.

The Steiner education is trying.

For you to find your structure

anyway.

Totally dig, sing.

I've got something written down.

I've written it down.

1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6 times and it's passion.

Mm.

And that's all I hear.

Um, yeah, totally.

It's literally, and it's, and something that's been on my brain for a long

time when hiring, and it's actually a complete non-negotiable now when

I hire someone is I want passion because you can be extremely skilled.

Your own passion.

We can't teach you.

Yeah.

If you or you just don't, if you don't care.

We can't, we can't As a business progress to do better things.

How, how is that in your business?

Because it's literally the only thing that I can take out.

Yeah.

It, it just, it keeps coming into my brain.

I, I totally agree.

I think like passion is something that you can't teach.

You can't jam passion down someone's throat.

No, you can't.

I've tried, like I have tried

and, and

what, and what you are passionate about might not be what I'm passionate about.

Exactly.

Right.

You probably share something that quite aches building.

Yeah.

Yeah, yeah.

Exactly.

And, and I think like at the end of the day, that's what we are doing.

We're, we're, we're either building people's homes or workplaces or,

or, or whatever that might be.

And we're trying to do that in the most.

Sustainable way possible.

Um, the lowest impact, um, environmentally with the highest impact, you know,

socially and, and, and at the same time trying to make money.

Yes.

Which as, as, as Matt said before, sometimes falls to the

bottom of the priority list.

Um, but,

you know, which I just wanna touch on for, for a second.

I actually think that.

As a builder and as people listening to this, profitability per profit needs to

sit at the top, whatever you are doing.

And we live in a capitalist environment and there is no point in you having all

these amazing ideas as a builder and having this great culture and this vision.

If you are not there to do those things, what's the point?

Mm-hmm.

So you need to make money as a business.

Mm-hmm.

So, I mean, and man, I'm still learning this.

I've been 20 years now.

How

can you.

And I think there's a conception or a misconception around that our business

owners make a shitload of money.

Well, yeah.

You know, at times we lose money too.

Yeah.

And we have a higher risk.

And if shit goes wrong, where the, we're the face.

But you also employ people to give them up an opportunity to give them a good income.

Yep.

To look after them.

And, and if you

destroy the business by not.

Making enough funds and you know, actually, um, sending the

business backwards, then there's no, there's no amazing culture or

network or anything for everyone.

So yeah, let's all

agree

on that.

Passion

and profit have to coexist and be on the same level as one.

That's a whole idea of business is to make money like it's, is that its most simple.

Yep.

And you can still do, and.

You know, disagree or agree with me, you can still do amazing

things and still make money.

Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

And I think it's like, I, I've got a lot of amazing friends in the building

space who we all, every one of our businesses is completely different.

Yeah.

You know, we, we, Brad, you know, you guys have spoken with Brad multiple times.

You know, the structure of his business is completely different to both of

yours, you know, and, and I think.

It's working out and, and to be honest, like my intention was never to have

as many employees as I have now.

Um, but I wouldn't change that for the world.

But how many, it's also we're, we're up to, we're up to 12 now.

Oh, you can make good money.

With just one or two people, I think.

Like you don't have to have a big, um, yeah, bigger is not better all the time.

Exactly.

Sometimes that can be, can be a lot

worse.

So I've got a thing.

We talked about culture, passion.

Uh, you got a team of 12, now every generation says this.

Then they'll, they're they next generation.

I just don't work as hard and I feel that the culture of young kids these days and

not working harder is something that is a huge issue because I genuinely feel that.

Mm. Yeah, I've heard you speak about that before as well.

Yeah.

How do you, how do you find that?

Because there is the exception.

I think that we grew up in a generation where we, we didn't

have social media on our phone.

We didn't have a phone until probably about 16.

These kids have it when they're like five now they're just young kids from two.

They notice swipe.

Um, I think there's also the previous generation rice have

just wrapped them in cotton wool.

Um, and I think that it's detrimental to their working the way they work.

But do you have issues with this?

Do you see it?

Not really.

And I think that that's because of the things that we've been talking around

already, you know, the people like that, that that can be a major issue.

And I totally agree with that.

Un doubted from it.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And, and I also think that like, it's also a huge amount of exposure.

And if a kid, like, I remember my youngest brother, Tav, you know, like

if he got, um, you know, obsessed with, um, certain things, like I remember one

day he came up to me and he, he said, you know, Kaya, do you have a lighter?

And I was like.

What do you mean?

Why, why do you need a lighter?

And he is like, oh, I, um, I, I saw on YouTube you can, um, you know,

melt these two, um, toys together to create, you know, this different thing.

And I was like, what?

How did, how did one, how do you even know what YouTube is?

And, and two, like I was talking about this at footy last

night with T-shirt, he was pretty much saying that like the, the

whole YouTube social media thing is like to young kids that they like.

You think that they're, you've got control of them.

They're 10 steps ahead of you.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And, and, and I think like, what that kind of highlighted to me is like also

like if there's a younger person who is obsessed with building, look how

much resource and availability there is now for them to learn building.

It's, it's, it's exactly right.

And so if someone's passionate and there's so many opportunities and,

and there's, you know, young, younger, younger crew who are super passionate,

um, who want to get into building.

They've got so much knowledge and, and, and at things at their fi

fingertips now, which we didn't have.

Um, so I think it also can create even more passionate people.

It allows you to find earlier what you wanna do and if, if, if you are,

you know, attracting those people to your business and you know.

They've, they've seen you on YouTube or whatever it is.

Like that can also attract the right people.

But I, I think as a general, you know, kind of thing, like I, I, I, I,

I, I have heard what you're talking about, but I, I personally haven't

had much experience with with that.

I think, I think it's the issue.

It's not when I'm talking about like working hard as, I

don't want to jump on a shovel.

Some don't, but more so it's like, it's the A to getting from A to B.

They don't understand the hard work.

Sometimes it takes because they see.

They've grown up in a digital age where all they see is the phone.

Like, oh, I gonna be that.

Mm. How do I get to that?

Mm.

That's what I'm talking about.

Do you know what?

I just feel like,

I don't know, I just turning into like this whole philosophical question.

Like, you know, you see these pictures like, and this one sticks in my mind.

I have a picture of a train back in the fifties and then a train now, right?

Thomas the

tank engine, someone's the on a train and everyone's reading a newspaper.

Right.

And then the next one's, everyone's on their phone.

You know, not much has changed.

It's still reading the same thing.

It's just you.

You get it now instantly.

Yeah.

I mean, I get it.

And again, I'm not saying that phones aren't an issue, but like ev

every generation that comes through, there's always the new thing.

Yeah.

Right?

Yep.

How do you manage diversity without also.

Coming across as virtue signaling.

I said before, we've, we've, we've done, you know, we've, we've only

advertised twice for roles, but the time that we, you know, one of those times

we, we, we explicitly said they were looking to hire, um, uh, uh, you know,

um, someone that isn't a white male.

I remember that ad, and I do remember the wording was, uh, first Nations and.

Non gen, non-binary, and women are encouraged to apply.

Apply.

Yeah.

Remember that,

that flash?

No, no.

Definitely not.

Yeah.

Well, to be honest, I'm definitely not as good Instagram as you guys like.

I'm, I'm not as, um, you know, we, we don't have as, as much

engagement probably as, as you guys.

Um, I, I, it's something that I need to work on is working on in my Instagram.

I'm trying to get my little click, so yeah, we, we don't, we don't really,

um, we don't, yeah, I've never had any negative kind of, you know,

response to anything like that, but.

I, I remember, I remember minded people.

Yeah.

That's the reason why.

Yeah.

And, and, and, and I, I, I, you know, I remember feeling, you

know, quite conflicted and I feel conflicted about talking about

diversity as, as three white males.

Exactly.

Yeah.

Being here right now.

So it's, I think it, it's just opening an opportunity for

inclusion and um, really just.

Also, you know, I'm lucky to have some absolutely incredible

women in the team at Wilderness.

Yeah.

You know, we bounce ideas off each other.

Uh, you know, it's not me making all the calls, you know, and, and, and, and

I think that that's super important.

We, we, we've tried to kind of, you know, encourage some pretty open co

communication, um, with, with, you know.

Our, some of the apprentices that we've had that, um, have been women and yeah,

I think, I think that, um, comes out of a, a, a necessity to really try

and see, see change in our industry.

Actually love what you said before, right?

And I, I've just written down right person here, but is what you said

before, you're actually showing someone a, an opening in the door.

And I actually really like that because.

You might put an A ad up and saying, I'm looking for an apprentice.

Mm-hmm.

Now that without saying it is like, I think there is a broad spectrum of the

population that women, namely, which returning to work, moms would say that

out and go, oh, that's not for me.

Mm-hmm.

But by you saying these people are encouraged to, uh, apply, you're

actually opening the door for them.

Mm-hmm.

Now I know you.

Really well, and I know that you're always gonna hire the right person.

So you might get a non-binary indigenous women, three males, whatever.

And I know out of that pool of queer as well,

that's a massive one.

Queer.

Yeah.

But I know you are gonna hire the right person for the job, so

you're not just gonna hire someone.

Yeah.

To hit a

yeah.

Trick.

No, definitely not.

Is there anything wrong with saying that?

You said diversity heart.

I kind of.

Do you think there's something wrong with that?

Like, why are you doing that?

Are you doing that for yourself, or are you doing that to try and

inject something into your team?

I think it needs to come more organically than that, and you're

hiring the, as Hamish said, you know, you're hiring the right person for

the role and for the business and for.

Your, the rest of your team too.

Yeah.

You know, um, so yeah, I, I, I, I have kind of, you know, cringed at that a

little bit at times when I've heard, you know, people talking about, you

know, diversity highs and I think that that's something that, you know, is

quite common in more, you know, larger corporations and things like that.

I, I haven't really had much personal experience with it.

Um, but yeah, I, I don't.

I don't love that wording either way.

Yeah.

Yeah.

It's like if for some people,

like yeah, if you were to diversity hire, but from a Right.

Per, from a right way.

Yeah.

But, but, but then you say, like, we just look at the whole c fm you

shoot at the moment where they're just like, they've done it for the complete

wrong reasons and taken all the money.

Mm-hmm.

So, which, which, do

you know what, like, it's funny because, you know, on one hand giving someone

an opportunity where the opportunity probably wouldn't have existed before.

And even if that did come as diversity, I. Might have then opportunity own

more people that, hey, you know what, it's not just blokes that can swing a hammer.

It's fucking everyone that can swing a hammer.

So, you know, the, it's this really, and this is probably why we

didn't wanna sit here, talk about diversity is three white males.

Because, you know, I guess we've never had, uh, you know, the,

the issues that o other people.

Is it now when you hire, is it just anyone you can pick from that

is that, have you kind of gone like, not 360, but like, because.

Originally you've said that now you just have people in that they, when you do

hire or they come to you, like it's just they, they're comfortable coming to hire.

Like, because I think some of the issue is like by saying that it's

giving those people that little bit of a Oh, unsafe insight, unsafe.

I'm, I'm safe to apply

Yeah's.

True.

Yeah.

This is a really nice way to spin it back to culture because you know, we

did sit here starting to talk about culture and I think I kind of wanna land

on here and maybe finish there as well.

And I think.

People see wilderness now, not as a diversity hire and not as a,

you know, I guess just ticking a box or virtue, tickling they're

coming to work for wilderness.

'cause you've got a great culture.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I, I, we just did an exercise this week actually.

So Good, good timing to, to be here.

But we, we did, we did a, um, a questionnaire with our team.

We actually all got in a room, um, and, and, and spoke about the questions

that we were gonna kind of do, and then that, that questionnaire was done.

So it's anonymous.

And we asked, we, we asked about six questions, um, to the team.

And you know, one of the, one of the first questions is, you know, what, what

do you love about working at Wilderness?

Pretty much every single person with in our team, um, you know, said the

team and the culture, the team and culture that we have now with 12.

Plus people.

That is the best bit about wildness.

And I

know, and I know I said before, the profit is, you know, really important.

But as a business owner, hearing that.

Would, so she could actually read that.

I would sit there and say that, for me, that would just be like, you know what?

I fucking made it.

I could not be more happy and proud.

Like, 'cause that's the other thing.

Like I, I don't feel like that has been necessarily me creating

this, the team creates culture.

You know?

Do you

know what?

Let's not discredit the fact that you've been.

A massive part of that though.

Yeah.

Because yes, you, your team is adding to that culture and it,

and, but, but that you, you can't take away from the fact that.

You are the one that started that.

Yeah.

I feel like, you know, a bit of the, the conduit in the situation.

Yeah.

You know, and, and to, you know, to create, you know, a,

a really great environment.

It, it, it's, it's, it's comes down to the sum of the parts, you know?

Yeah.

The, all of the rest of the people.

And there's not one person in our team that doesn't add to

that, in such a positive way.

And, um, you know, it, it was just so nice to see those words.

Um, you know.

Coming di directly from the horse's mouth, from the outside looking in.

You should be so incredibly proud of what you've done.

And I don't know, and this is coming from, you know, are you proud?

I am, but I, I like myself as a person.

Like I, I feel like we're only scratching the surface.

Yeah.

You know, like, I feel like there's so much more that we

could do love, like so much more.

Um, I think, you know, the things that we have implemented in, in culture and,

and, and, and, and, you know, forming part of our kind of company values, I

feel like they should be the bare minimum.

You know, like this is bare minimum stuff.

We've got a long way to go and we're gonna be pushing towards that, um,

forever, I think, you know, like I, I, I think you can always improve.

I'm sure you guys have spoken about, and the girls on the podcast the

other day spoke about, you know, the condition of the, the, the portal lose.

Um, one of the guys yesterday, you know, in in, in our, in our meeting

said, you know, I think we're.

Been doing really well with the, with the toilets on site.

And, uh, I just love

that that is a topic of discussion.

Yeah.

How long have you been in the industry For like 15, 20 years.

Yeah.

15. And, yeah, like we are making an effort a fucking second.

Like you go in there, you hold your breath, right, and

then you're out of there like.

I agree.

Like now our toilet,

we've, we've actually come up, we've couple, we've come

up with a plan as a team.

Uh, so once a week we're gonna, you know, you know how they come and hose 'em out,

you know, you know, if we do have to use a portal, Lou, you know, we'll hose 'em out.

They have to be properly wiped down once a week, you know, so there's not just

dust on surfaces and things like that.

And, um, you know, that's something that everyone's agreed to, to, to, to do.

And team, if you are listening, you are now.

But also, no guys, you guys have done the flushing toilets, which that's

something else that we're trying to do with, oh, haven't done flushing.

I've never done, that's something that, that we really

want to try and implement more.

We're doing that on Pat's project at the moment.

It's been a bit of a logistical nightmare to, to fit it into the

inner city site, but we've made it

work.

Saw our stuck just bang, dropped down.

Yeah, literally just dropped down toilet.

We had

a temporary toilet that got dropped off today with the view that once

Andy's come in and done his work, then the a toilet gets set up out.

But this is like.

Bare basic thing that we should have been nailing for 10 years already.

You know, like it's, it's so low hanging fruit.

It's so, it's

so easy too.

Yeah, you're right.

It's a bare minimum.

Um, Kaya, I have really enjoyed this conversation and

I think it's, um, two pages

of notes is what I've got.

The things that you are

doing at Wilderness, you should be incredibly proud of.

And I know like all of us, you probably suffer from imposter syndrome and that,

you know, you can always do better and stuff like that, but it's been

a real privilege to get to know you and, you know, call you a mate now.

Yeah, no, it's, thanks for having me back guys, and um, yeah, we'll be back.

Look forward to the next one and yeah, you know, also just wanna

thank my team, you know, um, I'm, I, I wouldn't be a, be sitting at this

table for probably right now if it wasn't for, for all of them as well.

So, yeah.

No, thank you very much.

Puppet.

That's what I say.

Is the builder, just the puppet?

I'm the support.

Support to them.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Awesome.

All the strings.

Thanks mate.

Thank you.

Cheers.

Cheers.