This week, Ultimate.Ai Head of People and Culture, Dora Hoffmann, joins Within People partner Nikki de Vet to explore the difference between managing and leading. They dive deep on what it takes to develop yourself as a leader and how to align that leadership style to your organisation so you and your people can thrive doing meaningful work.

Learn more about Within People and the work we do here.

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Hello.

Welcome to re-Imagining work from Wedding.

As you can hear, I'm not your usual host.

I'm Nikki.

I'm a within partner, usually based in London, but today coming to you from Be.

And I have the pleasure to host this podcast today.

Instead of Anique, who we usually have as our wonderful host I am

super excited to introduce you to our guest today, Dora Hoffman.

A company called Ultimate and it was actually Dora's birthday yesterday, so I'm

gonna say happy birthday Dora and hello.

Hi Nikki.

Thank you so much and thanks for having me in this podcast, podcast.

I was really excited about it.

And thank you so much for the birthday wishes.

I did not expect to highlight that on this, but it's really nice.

Thanks.

Ah, you're very, you're very welcome, of course.

Yeah.

Dora is the head of people and culture at Ultimate, a tech startup that's all

about helping you wow your customers through automization of customer service.

Dora was born and raised in Hungary and moved to Berlin 10 years ago to start

working in the tech startup scene.

Dora, I would love for you to tell us a little bit more about you about.

Yeah, exactly.

Thanks Nicki for the intro.

So you pretty much described my life up until now.

That's, that has been the, the exciting part for me in the last.

10 years professionally to be able to you know, get into the start of

Word and work with different tech companies in different stages.

And and then this is how I landed at Ultimate.

So I have been here in the last two and a half years and leading the people team.

I actually started as a chief of staff at Ultimate and that was a very

interesting role for me because I could oversee a lot of you know, from,

from an organizational point of view, operational point of view, and, and from

HR point of view, a lot of the domains.

But as the company grew we also needed to structure the people team and.

and I chose to go on the people path.

So that's how now I ended up leading the people and culture team.

And I'm lucky to have an amazing team.

I'm really, really lucky to work together with the, the people who who are in the

people team and super proud of them, of what we have done up until now.

And I hope I can share a little bit about that today.

All right.

Thank you very much for giving a bit more color to who you are and what you do.

Thank you.

Today we're going to talk about a topic that both of us are really passionate

about, which is setting the next generation of leaders up for success.

And we're gonna delve into what does that actually mean and why is that important?

Yeah.

What do we see out there, Dora, on this topic?

Why is this so important to us?

Yeah, I, I feel like I could talk about this for hours.

So I don't know how much time we will have on this podcast, but let's try to

to dive into this I mean, this has been on my mind for so long and, and since

I've been working in the people domain I have always encountered this challenge

of you know, setting someone up who is in a manager position for success.

And I think it's so important, and especially at startup companies it's

really easy to, to lend a manager title or really easy to lend a senior title because

sometimes that's all companies can offer and there is a lot of inconsistencies

sometimes between titles as for individual contributors or for managers as well.

So I think in the market already itself is creating a bit of a challenge, I think.

And it's not easy when you land your first manager position, when you first start

leading a team to know what to do, right?

So already with all the challenges that it's coming with already the

inconsistency in the market but again, yourself as a, as a new manager,

how, how do you have to behave?

How do you act?

What do you do?

. I find it very fascinating that sometimes, especially in in startup companies, you

just kind of step into this role without any support or without the proper support.

Maybe there is some, some sort of enablement in your company

but very often there isn't.

Because it, it is a huge investment.

A huge time and, you know, monetary investment as well, and, , and

this is, this is maybe an area where a freshly founded startup

company does not invest yet.

So I know I talk a lot about the startup scene because this is where I've been

active, but it might be also different or similar in other companies as well.

But this has been a topic that.

, you know, like we are passionate about in the team.

And we have also at Ultima tried to build out our own manager training.

But what we started feeling that is that we need to bring in more expertise, right?

More expertise from the leadership side that might, you might

not have within your organiz.

So, yeah, it's it's a very, very interesting topic to explore as the

company grows because, you know, so many of the companies in the Berlin

startup scene are on a growth path.

There is, you see a lot of companies going through hyper-growth and that will

create so many different domains and so many managers and so many teams, and.

One of the, the main resources for a company to preserve the culture and to be

able to foster the culture its managers.

So really you need to make sure to invest in and enabling them and properly

setting them up for their journey.

Yeah, absolutely.

I think you hit the nail on the head there.

Like it's the, the, they're so important in your organization, right?

Your, your managers because of how you bring the culture to life

and how teams actually performing.

So the investment.

Is very important.

. And what we are seeing also from our perspective is a lot of requests

for like, hey, how do we, how do we set managers up for success?

And what is very interested within that is that the request is not only around

like basic managerial skills, it's really like how do we give our managers some

leadership skills because we really see that that is extremely important.

In the running of the business.

So not just the day-to-day managerial things, but also like how do

we really move things forward?

How, how do we really get the best out of our people?

And yeah, absolutely.

Like I think it's a very interesting experience to see that in the tech world.

Like coming from working from a big FST 100 firm, I saw the same thing.

I saw individual technical contributors being put in manager roles leading a

team and they have no idea what to do,

So it is really something that is super worth investing in.

And I think so I'm really excited that we're having this conversation

and to hear your perspective.

We talk about a lot about managing, but also about leading.

How would you describe the difference between managing and leading?

Yeah, that's a very interesting question.

So when you manage a team, when you start managing a team, you have a job

description, you have a GD for it, and it's more about the administrative task

of what you need to do to make sure that your team executes, to make sure that your

team hits the targets and hits the goals.

Apart from that, there is so many managerial activities that you need to.

Picking up on like absence management and, you know, basic like contract

management, working together with the, the HR team, collaborating with the

finance team on compensation, for example.

Or learn a little bit about the, the labor law that you are in the

location where you're operating or where you have team members.

So it's, for me, it's fairly administrative and you have to just

learn it because because you don't know these kind of things when you

work as an individual contributor.

And as you mentioned Nikki, a lot of the times what happens is if you

are the best individual contributor in the company, you sometimes get

promoted into a manager position.

But that doesn't mean that that comes naturally to you.

And then you know exactly what you have to do as a manager.

So these are the things that you can learn and.

and then fairly quickly, right?

When you get into an organization, every organization has different processes

and manager activities that they would request you to do in your position.

And then leadership on the other hand, is more about inspiring and enabling people.

Right.

It's more about how you can get the best out of your team , how you can foster

creativity in the team, how you can reach like the highest level of collaboration

between people, leverage the, the diversity of your team, for example.

So it's more about you know, like high level.

Skills that you learn through experience, through leading a team or through

coaching and, and proper training.

It.

, it's much, much harder than learning what you actually need to do in a

day-to-day as a manager in and the learn about your managerial activities.

It's much, much harder and takes time and, and takes experience because

even if you know the theory, there's so many great leadership books out

there and podcast and and trainings which is great, but you still need to

put that into practice and constantly educate yourself and constantly learn.

To always be, you know, you always to always improve.

And for me, you know, these two elements work together.

And then you're a great leader because you cannot miss out on the

day-to-day administrative tasks.

And then just this inspire, right?

And also the other way around it doesn't work.

One doesn't work without the other.

Yeah, absolutely.

And thank you so much for highlighting their differe.

I feel sometimes we struggle to really understand that we

struggle, how it is different.

And I think your articulation of it is yeah, super clear and really useful.

Really useful to hear from somebody that really works in

this from a day-to-day basis.

Well for the last six months we had the pleasure to.

Take Ultimate Managers on a leadership development journey.

And we have two cohorts running through yeah.

A really fascinating program that we designed together to really help managers

upskill on their leadership skills.

So what was your specific need and what things did you consider that,

like, that were important to you to make this program a success?

Yeah, that's a very good question because we

have put so much work into this.

We have put so much thought into the.

Of this training because we really wanted to make sure that we, we

build up a training program that is really in alignment with our

people strategy and also fits into the cadence of people, projects

that we will be running throughout the, the second half of the year.

So it was a very well thought out process.

And then, so even before we started communicating and collaborating with

you, with, within We have we have been brainstorming and creating the

strategy for a couple of weeks then and and really nail it down like what

we are gonna be doing and what we want our managers to, to be learning about.

Also, because as I mentioned before, the managerial skills you can

learn, we can give you this as an organization because we have the

certain processes that we are running.

So we wanted to make sure that people understand, the managers

understand what those processes are and then they can follow them.

There is documentation to support, we run internal trainings, but what we

really wanted to make sure is to bring in external expertise also to create.

You know, a lot more credibility and a lot more trust that between the managers

and, and ultimate because first of all, because we wanted them to know that we

invest in them and we want them to grow.

We want to grow with them together and.

The, the knowledge and the expertise that we didn't have internally.

We wanted to make sure that to bring it in to the company so then

everybody gets the same level of training and everybody learns about

the, the, the element of the people strategy and the elements of how we.

Ultimate leaders to lead in a manager training.

So it's been I mean, the journey has been just incredible.

I'm so, so glad that we chose US partners because this has just been.

Just beyond expectations and I think I had my first wow moment and aha

moment on, on the first session.

And then I thought, okay, you know, I already had super high expectation,

but then the second session was even I.

More impressive and we can go in and talk about this a little bit in data.

But back to the question about like what was important what was

really important for us is that we can really shape and personalize

this training together with you.

And then because we brief you to deliver.

To train our managers right to, we brief you and we collaborate with you on on

the development of our of our leaders.

And for us it was really important to to, to be on the same page and to share the

same values and, and that we can really trust you to deliver those trainings the

way we would like them to be delivered.

So that was super important.

Yeah.

And well, thank you.

Thank you for saying all of that.

And like we have so enjoyed this journey with you and from the beginning

we were super impressed with the brief, and I think you're highlighting

something so important, right?

Like if you go out and you seek a.

Development journey like this, get really clear on what it is

that you're actually looking for.

And the thing that really stood out to us was like how it really indeed

spoke to your people strategy.

How you really had considered the things that you were going

to move towards in 2022 in your people strategy and therefore,

what is needed from our manager.

So that we, and that really helped you get clarity on the outcomes

that you were looking for.

So what were some of the specific outcomes that you were looking for

in terms of a journey together?

Mm-hmm.

. Yeah.

So we actually had really specific outcomes.

We are very number driven.

We are very data driven, even in the people team.

Yes.

So you know, we don't just trust you know, random compliments and feedback.

We just really want to make sure that what we deliver.

Has the value and we can prove it also with numbers.

So we did one to actually the, one of the main deliverables here,

or one of the main targets was to increase the growth and development

driver in our engagement scores.

And that was successful.

So we were really happy.

So not just growth and development, but also manager connection.

So these were the two drivers that we, we really wanted to double down on.

There are so many drivers that we screen down at in our, in engagement strategy.

But we really strategically how we build up the people strategy.

We strategically want to make sure that we we focus on.

Certain drivers in a certain time period, quarter or half year.

And these two were so important for us and we want, we wanted to make sure

that we get tangible results on that.

So that was one of the you know, getting feedback from, not just from the

managers but from the whole organization.

So we get really positive response on that.

And Another outcome that we were looking for is that we wanted to make sure that

the managers are also appreciated and they feel it, because I think that can

really be a lonely position sometimes.

And you can feel really alone in certain situations and.

You can sometimes have this disconnect even between the company

and you in, in certain cases.

And, and you don't, you know, it's so important that they

know that they're supported.

They know that they're, we want them to be enabled and we want them

to be able to handle situations.

And I think.

We managed to do that because we created, but also just by creating the

cohorts and having those peer learning sessions, we also created the community

between those cohorts and support, almost like support groups so that they

know there was a lot of realization and enlightenment about how we deal with

very, very similar issues on a day to.

and sharing those and working, working through those together is

much easier than just by yourself.

And I think that was, that was

No, I was just gonna say like, it makes you feel

that you're less alone, right?

Like to the point of like feeling that you're alone sometimes in that role,

like having that connection and hearing other people's experiences really helps

you see that actually, you know, we're all facing the same thing here maybe.

So how, yeah.

How do we go about that in, in the sense that we learn together and

we we're not on our own in the end.

Yeah, exactly.

And that's like a, you know, that's on a very emotional side of things,

but also just like simply saying, but I, how I started at the beginning is

sometimes you're just promoted because you're the best individual contributor

in your company, and suddenly you find yourself in a manager position,

but you have no idea what to do.

You're managing your co.

You're managing the people that you are, were your peers yesterday

and now you are leading them.

So how on earth, you, you should know what to do.

Right.

So we just wanted to make sure that there is enablement for that in the

business because it's so important and, and we want, you know, it also

creates so much credibility for the team as well that your team knows

that you are going through a manager.

So, you know, you are doing it for them as well.

You're doing it for your own development, but also for for each and every team

member so that you can learn how you can best support their development.

So that was super crucial for us.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And I love, I love that you highlight that and I love that.

Yeah.

Just like shine a spotlight on like how we can learn together in this

and how, how important that is, that kind of peer-to-peer connection and

the understanding that creates . What does leadership mean at Ultimate and

how did the program align to that?

So I think the program was actually a very important part

in played a very important role for managers at Ultimate to become leaders.

And that's exactly what we wanted because we were.

Learning to be good managers.

We were we were building processes.

We were doing an internal trainings but we knew that we need to

level up every single one of us.

We need to level up into good leaders.

And we already had amazing leaders in the company, right?

But this, we are, in this podcast, we are talking about the next

generation, like setting up the next generation for, for success.

And.

, even though we, you know, we were trying to leverage the leadership

experience from some of our senior leaders, which was, which was beautiful.

Like we had conversations and trainings with them as well.

Obviously they are also busy.

They also cannot support us on that journey so much.

So we wanted to give more and then be, become even better leaders.

that was leadership just means for us to become.

To step up from managers to actually be able to lead the teams and lead with

empowerment and lead with enablement, and not just manage workload and manage the

day-to-day and, and, you know, register sicknesses and, and all this to-dos.

So for us, it was really about let, let's get together as a company

and then let's learn how to.

Better.

We are already good, like don't get me wrong.

Every single individual at Ultimate and every single person in management

position is already amazing.

You know, you can always be better and you can always learn, and this is the learning

that we really needed to level up.

So I'm really glad that we were able to do that because and we get a lot of

compliments as well about how, you know, at early stage like this, you're already.

Doing manager training, such an extensive six months program.

And I was really proud of that because you know, like people develop, like instantly

develop trust towards the organization.

When they see that you actually invest in your people, you invest in the managers.

You don't just assume that someone steps into a position and, and

then they will ace it and they will know what to do and then, you

know, they are successful straight.

Some of us did try to figure out, you know, from a very early on how to do

things better and like we shared some stuff with each other and, and you know,

you can read a lot from books and you can educate yourself as well, which I, I still

think you should, you know, never stop.

Even though we

Always, we're always learning

Exactly.

You're always learning, which is great.

But I think you need to go through a formal training and coaching

like this to unlock a lot of the potentials in yourself as well.

And to unlock also a lot of the blockers that you might think

like, oh, I don't know that like, you know, I don't have experience.

Like how would I solve this problem?

There is a situation in my team.

And then going through a program like that, especially with the peer

learning sessions, you realize that's the struggle everybody has every.

Yeah.

that it just makes it so much easier for you to reach

out and then to think about it with, you know, maybe co-create solutions

with others and then go into your team or to one-on-one conversation

and try to resolve situations.

Sometimes you get really blocked when you face an issue.

There is something going on in your team and you don't know how

to handle it, or you don't know how to best handle it maybe.

And it's really helpful to be able to reach out for support.

Yeah, absolutely.

And what I've really seen in, in each and every one of the two

cohorts, the people attending the, the program and the journey like.

Each one of the, each individual is a leader in their own rights and

really how they've been showing up, like and week after week, coming to

the sessions, contributed to the peer learning, really being vulnerable

and sharing what's going on for them.

I've really enjoyed Working with because they are, they really care.

They really care about their teams.

They really care about getting the best out of their teams and they

really want to improve themselves.

They wanna be good leaders.

And I'm really excited to see like what kind of impact this will have on your

culture because we know that leadership is such a big part of culture and.

feel that the more people are really equipped to be good leaders, the

better your culture is going to be.

Do you have any other reflections on that from a cultural perspective?

Because I know you're very hot on culture and it's like something

that's always on your mind.

So love to hear a bit about that.

Yeah.

Yeah, a hundred percent.

So there is this whole, I think the whole training was also part

of, you know, contributing to the leadership culture and, and with

that to the broader company culture.

And I do agree with you.

I think for me, one of the biggest moments in that, in the trainings

were how vulnerable we were in some of the conversations and.

Willing, the people who are to share and, and you know, we responded to each other's

struggles and there was a lot of support.

So generally that's how our culture is actually.

There's a lot of support and enablement and everyone's, you

know, we are in it together.

We are a startup.

We have to stick together to make it right.

And somehow like, funny enough, before this training, we, I don't think we

had this in our leadership culture.

, right?

Or at least between the peers.

We didn't really have that relationship between the peers.

And I think the training really unlocked that because we were able to.

Yeah.

And that was, for me, one of the greatest thing there.

It's not just the learning and you know, all the models that we went through and

all the aha moments that we had, but really connecting with my peers and.

And know that okay, I, I know that I can reach out to them for support.

And I think that contributed so much to our leadership culture as well.

And that the, the factors why that you don't have to

be in these situations alone.

Because that's also how our company culture is.

Like you don't have to be alone.

We have so many, you know, channels for help.

So ch so many like Slack channels.

If you need any support, you can ask anyone.

You can, we have an open space office, you can walk up to anyone.

It's very, very open the culture that we have.

So yeah, why didn't we have that in the between leader?

Between peers as well.

I dunno.

But now we do.

So that's great.

And I think that was a big cultural moment as well for us

That's really, that's really great to hear.

I love that you shared that.

Did you have any key learnings during, because you attended as

well, you were part of one of

every

time.

was every time you were there, so that was super

exciting to have you there.

So, yeah.

Did you have any key learnings or what's been one of the highlights for you?

Yeah, a hundred percent.

I think I had the, the biggest key learning for me, and I think

I can speak for everybody else, because we just, we were buzzing

in the office after that session.

It was the drama triangle

Right . It's a good

one.

It was so great and it was the, the anticipation that we learned

one side of the trauma triangle and learned about the different roles that,

you know, you take on as a manager, but not just as a manager, but as a human

As a human right?

Yeah.

Exactly.

It's a, you know, you can't separate that.

You can't just like put on your manager court and then like be the

manager at work and then go home and put on your person, you know, court.

No, you are, you are what you are.

Doesn't work like that.

Exactly.

And to actually see How we are all, you know, on that side, on one side of

the drama triangle and can associate with one of the rows can relate to one

of the rows and realize like, oh, this is not, not how I should be reacting

or not how I should be doing things.

So why?

And we all thought, because I think, I don't know how much I can

say, but I think we were all in the res, most of us in the rescue,

right?

Yes.

As managers, that makes complete, makes complete sense, right?

Like we wanna help people.

It's about helping people,

Yeah.

And you think you are doing something good and you think, you think

you're happy, but you are not.

It's very counterproductive and it was amazing actually to, I

love the anticipation between the showing us, revealing the

other side of the drama triangle.

There was a whole two weeks of waiting and everyone was talking about like, I wonder

what's on the other side and how I should.

Thing, and that was great.

I think also the conversations we had about it and also how we referred

back to the drama triangle almost every single session after that.

I think that was really good.

I think that was, that was a great, great, great foundation for the whole training.

So my highlight was definitely that.

What's that?

That, yeah.

We, we really love bringing that thinking and that tool really to

to the groups that we work with.

because it's so powerful, because it, because it's, and it's powerful

because it actually just speaks to our normal human behavior.

And I think that's what's been wonderful throughout this program.

I find as well, it's that it's really could highlight each and

every individual's humanity and how we show up and how do we have

productive conversations around that, and how do we create awareness?

And once we have that awareness, How can we make different choices that are

even better for ourselves and our team?

So I'm very excited to hear that that's one of your highlights and,

Yeah, definitely.

I was blown away.

And then just the realization of it was just really good and the, the

awareness that it created, I think in all of us that was so important.

and we, I think we do hold each other accountable since then,

you know, we do refer back to it.

And, and I think that's, yeah.

That's great.

That's great.

And, and then the other highlight for me was that some of the, some of the

personal conversations or some of the questions that, you know, check-ins

when at the beginning of sessions realizing how everyone shows up.

So much more on a session than you know, and just bring, just brings

them them their whole self and how.

You know, it's, you can have any, you can be in any mood during the day.

You don't know what the other person is feeling.

You don't know what the other, how the other person's last night went or, or this

morning went and what they are dealing with, but struggles they're having.

And then just in, in check-in situations, situations, sharing that.

It was very eye-opening for me too, and I think for, for most

of us as well, to acknowledge.

that, oh, everyone's coming to work with, you know, with

their own baggage, let's say.

And, and then we just need to really make sure that we have so much empathy towards

each other, even in a stressful situation.

Cuz you tend to forget about that.

You tend to, if you have stress.

Somehow you want other people to be stressed as well or somehow, you know,

You wanna

gonna just Yeah, of course.

Because there is a problem.

So everybody should have, everybody should be in panic mode.

but then realizing that that's not, that's not how it should be.

Right.

And, and then just make sure to to acknowledge it.

Okay.

I actually don't know how, you know, your morning went Nikki, or how your, how

your last night went and it could have gone either way bad or good, so I don't

know which, with, with which emotions and mood you're gonna show up to work today.

And then just always be respectful so that you don't know, and that what

you see is just the tip of the iceberg and there's so much more under that.

And then just always have this in the back of your mind.

then just have this like a huge amount of empathy towards

the people that you work with.

Because I think we already had so much respect towards each other.

But maybe, maybe we re I think we really learned to have empathy.

At least I did.

So

that was also a big highlight for me.

Yeah.

And I love hearing that because I really feel like most of, of your, your crew had

that kind of realization around empathy.

And we actually ran our final session this morning.

Hey.

And like a big part of it, it's like we can, like we were talking around

you know, how do we create inclusive conversations with our team and.

The importance of actually not assuming you know how other people

are feeling, or assuming that their morning went well or assuming how they

might feel towards needing to give a presentation, for instance, tomorrow.

Like right, can, how can we step in with yeah, more empathy, more curiosity,

freely try to understand each other so we can get the best out of each other.

So I really feel that from, you know, we started working

together in July till, till now.

Like it's really been a shift I've been noticing and that's been really great.

Yeah.

I'm glad that you say that, that you also noticed, I think throughout

the, the, the months that we spent together, I think a lot of.

Yeah, I feel like there was a lot of things shared, and I also loved how

the conversations became really organic because sometimes at the beginning, you

know, in group situations that you maybe people are a bit hesitant to share.

But I felt like from the second session on.

Always the, you know, the hands up emoji was up and zoom and

people were actually eager to share.

Yeah.

It was great to see the the involvement and how, how motivated people were to

actually share and how they enjoyed it.

So that was great.

Yeah, that was really great.

And it was also really great that we could just be flexible.

You know, I remember there was one session where we were just like, actually

we had something else planned today.

But what we're sensing into with the group is that we need to focus on the

topic that you're now all speaking to

Because we always do a check-in, you know, in our.

Sessions and people that work with us know that.

And then things surface and it's like, actually we can throw our, the agenda and

let's just focus on what is important.

And I love that everyone is, is up for that and really is up for

leaning into the conversation.

And to me that is a great leadership skill on its own.

What can we sense this group needs and can we tap into that?

So yeah, definitely lots of growth happening.

Yeah.

You gotta be agile if you work at the startup.

So

Yeah, definitely being demonstrated.

Thank you so much for all your wonderful thoughts and insights around this.

Again, it's been a true pleasure working with such inspiring

company and great leaders.

We always love to do some rapid fire questions with our guests at the end.

Would you be up for that?

of course.

Let's do that.

All right, let's get into that.

So the first question, what three words would you use to describe the

workplace culture you'd like to lead?

I would say inspired because if the cultural lead is

inspired and I thought my job well responsible because I wanna work at

a company, at a company whose culture acts and own its own domain and open

to new ideas, learnings, and develop.

Okay, great.

So inspired.

Responsible and open, right open to learning.

Great.

Okay, and what three words would you use to define the future of work?

definitely AI

AI

and automation.

That's the future.

Okay.

Lovely.

And yes, working in a tech startup and particularly what Ultimate does, I

Exactly

that those are your answers.

Yeah, I really, but I really see it.

And then the buzz around AI and automation, I think has

been proving me right as well.

So I think it's also time wise re you know, really resonating.

Yeah, and I think for everyone who's similar to me, where we're

sort of in denial that actually automation and AI is a thing and is happening.

Let's catch up everyone.

You've heard it here from.

I'm here to tell you

yeah, . I love that.

Which one Quality is your superpower?

positivity.

Definitely.

Yeah, I can, I definitely see that like in the time

that we've been working together, you're always always extremely

positive and yeah, that makes it a

Yeah, you gotta be

Yeah.

You do . And what one quality would you describe as your development area?

Definitely patience.

But I also feel like I have been learning so much about myself lately.

And the patient's part came out a lot, I think, in the manager

training with, with you guys.

So I've been working on that a lot, but I tend to be, yeah, I think that's, that's

definitely my development in area and I tend to be really impatient and want to,

you know, execute and go into solutions.

But now I'm, I'm learning I'm learning about it and

learning to stay more curious.

Stay in the moment and just be.

Be more patient.

Yeah.

Thank you for sharing that.

And as someone who's one of biggest development areas, it's also patience

. That resonates a lot with me, and I think we could record an entire

podcast about that alone, but we

we can do that next.

Yeah.

We can do that next time.

Yeah.

Outside of work, what is your most treasured spot?

my most treasured spot especially outside of work, especially

after work after long days of work.

My spot next to my puppy on the sofa,

Yeah.

and just reflecting on the day.

Ah, that's lovely.

Yeah.

You were sharing about your dog earlier, so

Yeah, exactly.

that's your one of your favorite places.

Yeah.

And is there a person or a brand you'd like to shine a light on today?

Yeah, I would highlight Patagonia because they're such an

impressive and inspiring, value-driven business, and I love this history and

the stories of value-driven businesses and Patagonia is just close to my heart

for what they do and their mission.

Yeah, absolutely.

I would completely echo that.

I also feel very inspired by them.

Totally.

I'm actually wearing a Patagonia jumper right now.

Oh, yay.

Oh yeah, there we go.

And lastly, if you had to pick one song that represented who you

are as a leader, what would it be?

It would be Hall fame from the script.

Okay.

If you listen to the lyrics, yeah, you can

see the positivity in there.

So I think you can see how it resonates with me having positivity

chosen as one of my superpowers.

So I think that's a great, great inspiring song.

Yeah.

Lovely.

I love that.

So, Dora, thank you so much for being on the podcast with us.

It's been so fun chatting to you and so fun chatting about a

topic that we both are so yeah.

Passionate about.

So thank you.

Thank you for being here.

Thank you so much, Nikki.

Likewise.

I think it was it was a great experience and, and the great

six months journey with within.

So thanks for that as well.

And I think that was a great you know, ending of it, ending the

year, ending that the manager training with this great discussion.

So I think that was amazing timing as.

Thank you.

Yeah, we're ending on a high.

Yeah, exactly.

and looking forward to seeing what might be

in store for Ultimate in 2023.

Yeah.

Just stay tuned for anything that comes out next year.

Exactly.

And thanks for listening everyone.

We hoped you enjoyed learning more about how you can set the next generation

of leaders up for success, and you have taken some nuggets of wisdom

from what Dora shared with us today.

You can find more information about Ultimate on Ultimate ai, and you can

find more about Dora on LinkedIn.

Her name is Dora Hoff.

Fs Double N, right?

Exactly.

Yeah, that's right.

. Thanks so much, Nikki.

Thank you.

Tune into our podcast every other week for more episodes on what's happening

in the culture and leadership space.

What's on the minds of leaders committed to change in our community and other

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Re-Imagining Work from Within is available wherever you listen to podcast.

Thank you so much and see you next time.