In this episode, I’m joined by Louise for a raw and honest conversation about intimate partner abuse, faith, and the long road back to self-trust. Louise shares how love, control, and religious beliefs became tangled together, making it hard to recognise abuse while she was inside it. We talk about the ways faith and religious language can be used to justify manipulation, silence doubt, and keep people stuck in harmful relationships, as well as the deep confusion that comes from trying to reconcile pain with beliefs about love, forgiveness, and endurance. Louise reflects on the barriers she faced when seeking help, the role of community (both helpful and harmful), and what it’s taken to reclaim her sense of agency and worth. This episode offers validation for anyone navigating similar dynamics and gently names the courage it takes to leave, heal, and begin again.

Who Is Louise

Louise grew up on, and lives on, Wurundjeri Country in Naarm/Melbourne Australia. Her story is about the domestic abuse she experienced in a 'Christian marriage', and the influence of Christianity and the churches she was a part of, including a cult, in enabling the abuse.

Connect

1. You can find out more about Sam on her website - www.anchoredcounsellingservices.com.au
2. To connect with Sam on Instagram - @anchoredcounsellingservices
3. Want to contact with Sam about the podcast or therapy? Use this contact form.
4. Also check out The Religious Trauma Collective

I would like to begin by acknowledging the traditional custodians of the land on which I live and work, the Gundagara land and people. I pay my respects to their elders, past, present and emerging, and extend that respect to all Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander people.

I also want to acknowledge the traditional custodians of the lands on which you, our listeners, are joining us from today.

I recognize the deep connection that first nations people have to this land, their enduring culture and their commitment to the preservation and care for their country. This land was never ceded and it always was and always will be Aboriginal land. Welcome to beyond the Surface.

This is a space for conversations that sit at the edges of faith, identity, power and recovery, especially for those of us who have been shaped so stretched or harmed by fundamental religion or high control systems. Some episodes are personal, some are reflective, some are educational or curious or quietly disruptive.

All of them are grounded in lived experience and a deep respect for the complexity of leaving, questioning and rebuilding meaning.

We will be talking about religious trauma, various forms of abuse, cult dynamics, queerness and recovery, not in answers, but in honest conversations. In listening to these conversations, some parts.

Might be heavy or activating for you.

Please take care of yourself while listening and feel free to pause or step away if you need to. I'm Sam and I'm really glad that you're here with us. Welcome Louise, thanks for joining me.

Hi. Thank you. Thanks for having me.

I am always super grateful when people entrust me and my podcast for the first time that they are speaking publicly about their story story. And that is what today is. And so I'm always grateful for the privilege that that is to have. Before we get into your story, where.

In the world are you Right now?

I'm in Melbourne and in living on Wurundjeri Woi Wurrung country in like Melbourne's Northeast Beautiful.

I was in Melbourne only a couple of weeks ago actually on a little 10 day holiday which was lovely. The weather did not rain the entire time we were there, which. Good.

I always expect it to just be like four different seasons in one day in Melbourne, so. But it was pretty good. It's a beautiful place.

Okay, I know that you have listened to previous episodes, so I know that you will know what my very first question is, which is nice and broad and vague for a reason, but where does your story start?

Yeah, I only landed on my answer this morning.

I mean that's better than other people and it's better than the first time I was asked the same question.

So being born Raised and identifying as female in a patriarchal world.

It's fun time. Hey, were you born into a faith based family?

Catholic family? I would say say cultural Catholic, probably. Yeah.

You know, so I went to Catholic parish, primary school and did all the sacraments, you know, took on a saint's name as my confirmation and. Yeah, so. And I went to, yeah, Catholic girls school. Yeah. For my secondary school.

So what was your saint's name, do you remember?

Monique. Oh, I chose it because I like the name.

Yeah, I mean, it's a good name.

St. Augustine's mother.

Yeah. Right, okay, nice. I mean, I don't. I was gonna say. I don't even know who that would have been.

And I went to a Catholic primary school as well, but it's a cool, more modern name, so I can understand why you might have picked it. What was life like in a. In a. I guess what we would call like cultural and nominal Catholic family. What did that look like?

So we. My dad, when he grew up like that, he grew up in a Croatian family and they were the largest migration ever out of Australia post World War II.

When, as soon as they got on the boat, they realized, you know, what that meant with respect to how it was playing out with lack of freedom. So, like, they weren't allowed off, you know, the port in India. So they're stuck on the boat for weeks and weeks.

So basically, yeah, they, they became Catholic, I suppose, as a, you know, the opposite of what, you know, they were like, as a rebound. Yeah. And then. And my mum, her. She was like, you know, Irish Catholic was one side and English Protestant the other. And.

But yeah, so that she was raised Catholic. Yeah.

And so was like faith a big part of your childhood or was it just that church was kind of in the background?

Yeah, faith was.

I remember, you know, just really liking like my first communion day getting to wear a nice white dress and this little floral wreath on my head and had a big party and. Yeah, so it was, it was something. Yeah, that was, it was part of my identity and part of like, you know, we went to church every Sunday and. Yeah.

But also like one of the things I can remember, like this was another part where I was. Where does my story start? One of my other answers might have been this one that when I was little I had this.

I don't know what age I was, but I had this philosophy of life that I said dad shouts at mum. Mum shouts at my sister. My sister shouts at my brother. My brother shouts at my other brother. My brother shouts at me. I shout at my dog, Mitch.

Mitch shouts at Mandy. Mandy shouts at the fish. And the fish talk to God.

Ah, okay. That's a lot of shouting.

Yeah, yeah.

What did that, like, where did that philosophy come from, do you think? Like, where did that sit for you?

Yeah, so I, Yeah, my, my growing up in the family, so there was, there was abuse there. I didn't really sort of see a whole lot. There was a lot of, you know, there was agro. I didn't see a whole lot of like, you know, instances.

There was one time I saw my dad pushing my mom and that's really, you know, stuck with me and was a real, you know, pivotal moment in my life. Yeah. Ye.

What did.

And because I. I often talk where, you know, teenage years is such a pivotal part of. Of our life. It's where we identity build. It's where we start to make friendships. It's where we start to see people who we are attracted to.

It's where we start to form relationships and, and all of that sort of thing. And so what was that like for you with the Catholic twinge, so to speak, on top of it?

Well, I was one of the ones that maybe it was a late 80s 90s thing, but we were like drinking really early.

Yeah.

We were, you know, car parks of red rooster rotundas in gardens, parks, drinking vanilla essence. The amount of risk we took. Yeah, you know, from 14 onwards.

Pretty much.

Yeah. And like, it was like kissing boys was, you know, a badge of honor at some point, not too early, and then also not going too far as well.

So there was a bit of a code of like, you could misbehave, but had, you know, pretty firm boundaries. Yeah.

Was that given explicitly to you or was that just sort of like something that you just knew?

Oh, I just knew. I picked it up like, you know, I. I kissed a boy in year seven and, you know, apparently that was too early. I copped a lot of backlash.

But later on, like on New Year's Eve, people were having competitions, probably like year 10 or 11 of how many boys they could kiss. So bright.

I love how as teenagers we had a knack of being able to turn everything into a competition. I don't know quite how we did it, but we did. Everything was a game. Everything had like a hierarchy or a tal attached to it.

Some good, some not so good.

But yeah, now I know that a good part of Your story is actually less about your childhood and less about your Catholic upbringing and more about a little bit later when you might have met someone in particular. So what is the gap between where we're talking now and when that happened?

Sure. So I met, yeah, this person in like, was in my early 20s and I had my first career job in the city and I met him at work. Yeah, he came to say hello.

He was in another area of like another sort of directorate of the organization. And he came in looking for some. No, I think. No, sorry.

I was upstairs talking to somebody and he came in and, you know, it was very charming and lovely. And I was on the 17th floor then. And then I went back to the office of the 12th floor and said a lot of the people were female.

I said, oh, you've got it, girls. You've got to do whatever you do. You've got to go up to the 17th floor and see this hottie, like.

Every good mid 20 girl should do.

And then we had like after work drinks on the Friday nights in the city. So that was probably where, yeah, that started. I was actually in a relationship with somebody else.

So it was a long distance relationship with a man from Zimbabwe and I'd met him over there volunteering and he was black, African Shona.

And I had a lot of backlash from my family for it and so I sort of had to, like, I had, you know, applied for a visa, fiance visa, and I was still living at home, but I, you know, didn't tell my parents that. And you know, my mum had said, you know, she wasn't supportive of it being like the strongest terms you could. And so, yeah, I. And it was.

It's been a long time since I'd seen him and I was starting to have doubts and because it'd been such a long, like he'd been accepted through his visa, like he was up to the medical part and I was like, I was having doubts and I was like at the, with the immigration laws, I was, you know, thinking, oh gosh, you know, if I end it for whatever reason in the first few years, then, then he has to go home. And we loved each other, but we were, you know, thinking of marrying a lot for the reasons of him to come here.

And then I just felt that responsibility that it shouldn't have to be like that. I was sort of across with the laws of the country, but also like just felt that weight and going.

I don't think that's sort of a really, you know, good foundation. And so, yeah, this guy That I met. He came from, you know, middle class eastern suburbs, Melbourne, gone to a private school.

So, you know, he ticked those boxes with respect to acceptability and. Yeah, with my family. Yeah.

So was, was the disapproval from your family around this other person's race? Like, was that. Yeah.

And, and also his, you know, at that point, his, you know, socioeconomic status and they were worried that he was using me and all that. And then, you know, we'd looked at him coming over to study here. He'd been accepted to a course. Yeah. So, yeah, it was, it was that.

Yeah, a lot of race and, and, you know, he didn't come from money.

Okay. Yeah. Now you used a particular word for this new person that's being introduced to the story.

And most of my listeners will always recognize the word charming is not always a good thing when we use the word charming. And so what was, I guess the beginning part of you getting to know this person?

Like, yeah, it was, was fun. There was like lots of, you know, after work, drinks in the city, going nightclub and dancing and drinking.

And yeah, there was a point probably five months after I'd first met him and it was a turning point in my life because we were at this nightclub where and dancing and I knew, like, it was probably inevitable we could both make the choice to kiss each other.

And I had this like, you know, moment where I'm like, this is a fork in the road for my life because I know that by choosing to kiss him, it's going to end like the relationship that I, you know, with, with the man from Africa. And so, and I didn't know what would happen, you know, that with the person I was going to kiss, like, what would happen with my life with him.

But I just knew that I was choosing to end the other relationship by kissing him.

Yeah.

And so I'm gonna give, I guess a little like, spoiler for some context for people listening that the person we are talking about becomes your husband. Correct?

Yes. Yes.

Okay. So I guess like give a bit of a picture of those early days of, of your relationship with him.

And now I don't remember directly from our, our previous conversation, but was he already a part of the group we are going to talk about or was he. Did you. He join it?

He was, he grew up in it. Yeah.

Okay.

And so, yeah, we, you know, we were very passionate, you know, attracted to each other. And then he invited me to go to his church and so I went there and you know, everybody was really friendly.

And yeah, it was very different to the Catholic Church that I'd grown up with.

And yeah, it was, to me, I felt like it was really like the people were friendly, but the, the church was really like, I know, old building and they had all these, they were singing all these hymns that were like hundreds of years old and so. And then that journey of like continuing to go to that church.

It was really interesting how Catholics were perceived as well, because they think that, you know, Catholics are all, you know, they're more progressive, I suppose, in that because they split, you know, in the hundreds of years ago. But you know, in reality, because the Catholic Church sort of went to English in the 60s, all the hymns and songs were heaps more modern.

And so I just felt like I was, yeah, going back in time and yeah, 400 and everybody knew the, you know, the tune and like the Catholic books had all the notes and how long you hold it and everything. Theirs just had the words and, and everybody and the organists and the choir and. And then everyone, like families had their rows as well.

Like, that was really weird.

Yep. It's.

I mean, and okay, because like a lot of people are probably thinking, okay, the Catholic Church is probably not the most modern, particularly when it comes to music. So to be referring to Catholic music and spaces as the more modern of the two probably says a lot. What flavor of church are we talking about here?

Yeah, they were Presbyterian and yeah, they had also some sort of exclusive invite only groups as well that were happening at that time for young men and young women. I was never invited to any of them. But there were like lots of church activities.

Like there was a weekly prayer night and there was an evening service on the Sundays. And afterwards it was. This was another thing that was really different to me. Like everybody stayed for like hours afterwards. Hours?

Yeah, like in the Catholic Church, probably some people even just took the communion and run. Like you know, no one, no one chatted.

Yeah, yeah, it's the like the big community esque kind of space. It sounds like, you know, everybody knows everybody, everybody's connected to everybody, everybody interacts with everybody. And so was it.

Did it feel quite potent that you were the new person in that space when you went with him? Like, did you feel like the new person who didn't really know everything that was happening?

Yeah, look, people were really friendly. The one thing that was hard was that was a big thing that when we were at the church, he was very distant to me.

So he would be very, you know, intimate and charming and you know, like lots of pda, public displays of affection in the Work setting. You know, we'd go down to have lunch on the banks of the Yarra and kiss in the grass. But he would barely acknowledge me at the church. So, yeah, that.

So what happened was, I know a couple of months after I started going, he broke up with me.

Okay.

And yeah, there was a point where, like, I wanted to keep going and my mum was going, you look so silly and desperate. Why are you going if you're not with him anymore? And I'm like, well, I really like it. I want to keep going.

So I made that decision and yeah, it was really hard. But then also, even though we weren't technically going out, there was still at that work setting. You know, it's pretty. Was pretty similar.

Yeah, we were still, yeah. Kissing and it was just, it was doing my head in.

I. I was gonna say it sounds awfully confusing and like, yeah, I am curious out, like separate to him just for a second, which was like, you were enjoying this space, you were enjoying this church, this community. And so I'm known for asking double barrel questions. So here's one.

What was your sense of faith and who God was during that time and what was it about the community that you were enjoying?

So I'd always like, you know, had that faith in God. I just, I felt like people, yeah, they had a lot more zeal about it. You know, they read the Bible and.

And you know, I went to young adults Bible study and people were excited and passionate about it and a whole new world was opened up. Like, I really got into Keith Green and.

Oh, wow, that is a voice. That's a name I have not heard for a very long time.

Yeah, okay.

Right.

Yeah. And just, yeah, they were, people were really friendly. Like people were going out quite young and getting married young.

You know, we all know why, you know. Yes. Want to have sex sooner so, you know, legitimately.

So like when Christians do.

Yeah, yeah.

Yeah. Sorry, continue.

Oh, yeah, so it was, it was really. And the people like, yeah, they're passionate.

And I just, I felt, and I was seeing the pastor as well, like having conversations with him about my faith journey as well and what I was grappling with.

And I remember when I was having chat with him reading Psalm 51 about David and that I suppose a part of where I felt, you know, I needed to be clean or, you know, forgiveness was around my sexual history and I felt that that, you know, was. Yeah. You know, forgiven and why does not all that. So, yeah.

And was that the kind of theology that you were being presented with? Like that sort of very like purity led. Like were you, were you taught like very fear based sort of like salvation hell.

That sort of all of those sort of benchmarks that I talk about with.

People on here and, and the, you know, the husband is the head of the household.

Traditional gender.

Yeah, yeah. Okay. And the quiet and gentle spirit of the wife and. Yeah.

How did all of those things sit with you? Were they, did they just feel okay or was there a part of you even at the time that was.

Yeah, look, it was difficult because you know, I'd gone to uni and I, you know, fully believe in evolution and I always have, always will and so I, I was not going to budge on that. Like that sort of. Yeah, the belief in the, you know, seven day creation six and a half thousand years ago. Yeah, yeah.

With the role of women, like I, I suppose it was more about if the husband was a really good guy then they wouldn't go against the wife anyway and like you know, they, he'd have that final say but really like it would be a journey of grappling and you know, until they got a consensus. So. Yeah, that was. Yeah. How I sort of was just trying to think about it in my head around all that. Yeah, yeah.

It's.

It's always so interesting to hear all of the different ways that we used to make sense of things that didn't necessarily make sense to us on the surface.

Like I use the term mental gymnastics where we sort of like try to make things make sense and I'm sure that that will probably continue to come up as we you talking. But when does old mate come back into the story?

Yeah, so I continued to go to the church and continue to like have this. Yeah, the cognitive dissonance around the. What was like at work versus what it was like at church. Yeah, I was really. Yeah.

Always just thinking about him and I suppose obsessed by him. I couldn't really move on and.

Yeah, then we got back together probably there was another time we got back together for a few months and then broke up. And then the last time was around the time that I became a member of the church. So you know, I had the approval of the church basically. The stamp.

Yeah, I was about to say the stamp of approval you like, you take to the final box, so to speak, it sounds like. But I mean like that yo yoing of like together, not together together, not together.

That would have been like an emotional roller coaster, I imagine for you.

Yeah, it was really hard.

Yeah, yeah. And so once you got that stamp of approval what was the trajectory like from there?

So that was. I'm very chronological, so I'll just say months. That's okay. So that was in February of a certain of a year and then June.

Oh, then he, he had left the workplace that we'd met at and he'd gone into consultancy and that hadn't really worked out.

So he then got a job in Gippsland and he was coming back on the weekends and he asked me to move there and I'm like, nah, not without a ring on my finger. Like, no way.

Yeah.

And so then in. That was probably April, Lily moved and then in June he proposed and it was. Yeah, I was really happy. And then we had a three month engagement.

So September we got married and then I moved down then.

Always a very fast trajectory in these episodes when we talk about marriage, typically.

Yeah.

Because of. And there's so many factors as to what that is.

But I mean, did that, I mean what we're talking about is like what an eight month period of time where you went from, you know, finally getting together to proposed to married. Did that at any point ever feel rushed to. To you or did it just feel okay and. Right.

It felt like it had taken forever to get to that point because it had been like three years of like being strung along.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And so how was the, how was, I guess all of that framed within the church? Was it like this big celebratory thing?

Was there anything that you needed to do?

Some spaces require, you know, particular rituals or anything that you needed to do to feel like you were actually part of that community and a member of the church.

Well, one thing was I didn't have to get baptized again, which was a good thing.

They recognized that my Catholic baptism and an infant baptism and with respect to leading up to getting married, we had to do the pre marriage counseling. And you know, one of the things was around, you know, how many kids we'd have and you know, I think he said 12 and I said five and.

Wow, 12.

Yeah. It was a lot of joking about. Yeah. Like those will. And. And I was looking at.

I was definitely thinking about, you know, that I wouldn't work and that I would be the primary caregiver for the period of time with the kids, you know, till they all. However many kids we had till they all went to school. Yeah.

And with the wedding, you know, like I remember one thing like, because like they wouldn't let me have one of the songs that I wanted to walk into and because it was deemed too.

Catholic yes, because I mean, in most, I mean, even in the church that I was in, Catholics are not real Christians. So like it's. Yes, I can understand.

Yeah. And then. Yeah, so. And then I, you know, I wanted to choose hymns and oh, there was a really, you know. Oh, that's not a hymn.

That's a song like, you know, being told off about, you know, certain the. That him can only be, you know, I think it's, you know, Protestant thing, you know, written by a dead white guy. So. Yeah.

Can only be written by a dead white guy is probably one of my favorite things I've heard. That's so good. Had you ever noticed any of those controlling aspects before as to what you're allowed to do and not allowed to do?

Or was this like the first moment where you really noticed some of those things?

Oh, look, the prayer meetings were. I noticed it then. Like it was.

There was a lot of control and they would pray a lot about like the church service and you know, like, they're very insular.

That's what struck me like, as well, because growing up Catholic, you know, I've always loved that social justice lens and like that continues to motivate me and doing things for people just because it's a good thing. Not with. You can only do it if you accept Jesus or you, you know, feign that you're going to. So yeah, that was. Was very insular.

Like the most outward looking thing they did was at that time was I think they wrapped Christmas presents at a local market. That was. And oh, and then later on they held a children's fair.

But most of their prayer was about everyone in that church and also praying for revival. That was a really, really big thing.

So the founding people had gone over to some Pacific islands years before and as missionaries and had there'd been a revival there.

And so they came back to, you know, eastern suburbs, Melbourne, completely different with this, invigorated with their experience and then always like praying for revival in, you know, in our city.

Okay, how did some of that, I guess the control and the being quite insular or, or exclusive. How did some of that sit with you?

Well, they welcomed people in. Like I think marrying in was accepted.

So.

And then there was a lot of, you know, relatives and families. Yeah, it was, it was. I suppose I just felt accepted and that they were passionate. So I could, Yeah, I could.

All the things that were like some things made me uncomfortable, but they were just so happy and loving and like to their own. And. And once you're in there so, yeah, I just. Just, you know, it felt really good. Yeah. Like what? Nano's love bombing and. Yeah, yeah.

I mean, as humans, we, you know, we're hardwired for connection. We want that place of belonging, and it's why so many of us.

Like, I think if I had asked literally every single person on that I've interviewed so far, I think everybody would probably say the same thing, which was that that sense of belonging was what allowed us to make sense of things that didn't make sense, stay in places that didn't necessarily feel supportive or safe for us because we belonged. And that's the power of community, I think. Right. So it's. It's a really. It's a bit of a tightrope, I think, of. Of space.

Now, most people would suggest that it would say that things don't really change once you get married. That it's just, you know, not.

It's just a piece of paper.

It just means that now you might share the same last name and you live in the same house and all of those sorts of things. Would you say that nothing changed once you got married?

No, a lot did. Like, because it's what marriage meant. Like, what it meant to me, I suppose.

You know, a relationship as a little girl, you know, seeing the Disney fairy tales, the society that, you know, tells you that that's what you should look for and aim for and.

Yeah.

And then, you know, I also always knew that I wanted to have kids, marrying. Have kids from a young age. So. Yeah, it was. And then, you know, we moved. We moved, though, as well.

Like, and that was really good in that we left that church. Like, that was probably the only way we would have left that church, because we had to, because we were living somewhere else.

But also it meant that we didn't have a community, didn't have family, didn't have friends. So we're really isolated and. Yeah, like.

Because, like, there were family members that had experienced or that, you know, weren't no longer in the church and, you know, had. Were being shunned. And I knew, you know, those stories and I was sad about them and those people. Yeah. But I just. Yeah, knew that I.

And sorry, also there were family members on my side that had said.

I just remember one person in particular saying this would be the best way to start your marriage because you'll be able to establish your own identity as a couple and not have other people there, because that's what had happened with her.

She traveled a lot with her husband, and from the stories of like the family members in the church that, you know, had experienced, like, experience, control and had left. And there was some acknowledgement that the.

You know, because there was a lot of control there, like, around at this church that we left, like, who you could marry, what job you could have and all that. Like, it was really like there were. There were elders and you were assigned an elder. And, you know, I read a book that.

About some of the stories, and I've heard them, you know, firsthand as well. Like, you know, whether married couple, whether they're allowed to go on holiday or not, you know, they've.

The person hasn't got a good feeling that, you know, God's telling them not to go and everybody has to walk in the light and. Yeah, all of the rules.

So in one sense, being away from that and knowing some of the stories or suppose lessons learned, was that I probably thought it was a good thing to not have too much control from people from the church and outside, and that the. There'd been a history of people, like, you know, crossing those boundaries between a husband and a wife before.

So that was sort of what I was like, no, this needs to be a really tight boundary between us and not let people in. Yeah.

Yeah.

Okay.

So, I mean, it's. It's tricky because I know that, like you said that your now husband grew up in this space, and so it's very easy.

You know, I see this happen all the time in other conversations and stories, but even with clients where we see the.

The indoctrination and the control and the traditional gender roles and all of that sort of thing spill over into other spaces of our world, and we take that into. Into other relationships and other spaces.

And so how did you see that play out in your family, especially considering the level of isolation that you were now having away from that community?

Yeah. So when you say my family, do you mean my family birth or.

No, no. So, like with. Yeah, so your new family.

Yes. Yeah. So I just. Yeah, we. We were getting to know new people or finding a new church, and we were, you know, And.

And when you talked about marriage, you know, like, what it meant, like, you know, we'd made a promise to God and, you know, there was the, you know, three. You know, the chord of three. I can't remember exactly.

Yes.

So you're the husband and God.

Yes.

Yeah. Yeah. So. And then, you know, it. I was just trying to live the dream.

I suppose I could finally, you know, we could legitimately be together and, you know, have that approval from everybody. So. Yeah. It was. And then we, we went to a Dutch Reformed church which was fairly similar, like the Calvinist philosophy.

Met a lot of nice Dutch people who are dairy farmers in that area and you know, they were still similar, like beliefs, you know, theology and all that. Went to a Bible or a small group and, and made some really good friends. But yeah, that's.

In that first year was when, you know, a physical abuse started. So I just, I didn't, there wasn't any way I could tell anyone about it. So.

Yeah. Did that.

Did that come as a surprise to you?

It did. The particular moment it did because it was about something that was really, you know, silly. It was about me using all the carrots.

You know, when I was cooking dinner, he didn't want me to use the carrots and I'm like, this is really silly. What's he going on about? And so I used all the carrots and then he came over.

Like I was, we had this open plan kitchen and he was sitting down watching telly and I was standing in the kitchen cooking the meal and. Yeah. And so he wasn't happy about that and you know, came over and yeah. You know, pushed me up against a wall and was. Yeah.

Just like pinning me there and glaring at me. So, yeah, it was pretty. Yeah, full on. And like in that moment I didn't know what to do and yeah, it was just such a shock and.

Yeah.

You know, having, you know, seeing, you know, that experience of my childhood, like, you know, seeing what I'd witnessed, what I'd witnessed like going, oh my gosh, I've. I've chosen that. How, how's this happen to me now?

Like, yeah, it was automatically your, your fault. Like you had like, you know, sometimes we see that come out, it transitions into that.

But it sounds like for you that blame as to like you had put yourself in this situation was almost there immediately.

Yeah. Yeah. And.

But I, at that point though, like, it was, it was just something I had to like, I was devastated about and I had to like, you know, get over it, I suppose. And I couldn't tell anyone about it. So I think I went out to the, I went to the local supermarket and got some more carrots. Yeah. Because I.

What's the big deal about, you know, these carrots? They were 99 cents and I went and got some carrots. So, yeah, it was. Yeah. And I just couldn't.

Yeah, it was, that was hard, like just not being able to tell anybody. But. And then, you know, there were also just being on eggshells then, you know, that, wow, like, not predicting when it could happen and all that.

And. And one of the things around, like his childhood and his experience in the church was that he had also been on the outer as well.

Like, as in, he hadn't been invited to the exclusive groups. So, you know, so it can be. There's lots of, you know, bad things that happen when you're in those groups. Yeah.

But then when you're also not in them, you know, that feeling of exclusion and insecurity and I'm not good enough. And they need also bullying in his childhood, in his teen years. And so that made him very. It really affected him.

And like, knowing that story about him as well, you know, I, I felt for him, I had empathy because he was a hurt person, you know, hurt person, hurt people, hurt people. And he also had mental health issues as well and was often suicidal. So, you know, in the.

In one sense I'm experiencing something and then he's feeling bad about it. But then I'm also.

We're really worried about him and his mental state and, you know, leaving him was so not in my head for years and years and years because, you know, how much marriage meant to me and how much, you know, I was worried about him and I loved him and there were good times as well. So.

Yeah, And I think that's, you know, I think that's sometimes the hardest thing for so many people, whether it be, you know, abuse in a relationship or abuse in a church or something, is that there are sometimes good parts. And that can be really. I mean, that's sometimes part of the confusion as to.

Whilst we're even still in those spaces is, you know, that those good parts that are part of that cycle that we often talk about. But a lot of people, unless you've.

Experienced abuse in a particular space, don't.

Understand that we can still sit here and go.

But there were good parts and that.

Could be confusing to a lot of people. So you hinted that this marriage continued for years.

Yeah, yeah. So we lived in regional Victoria for a few years. Part of my job was I would see. I worked with young mums, we did pram walking groups.

I was in health promotion and I would see that a lot of the mums were not from that area and they felt really isolated and not having, yeah, somebody nearby. I could look after the baby while they went food shopping or go get their hair cut, go to the gym or that sort of stuff.

So I'm like, I. I saw that isolation and, you know, I also probably Know, myself, you know, not happy. What was going on was like, I need my family nearby. So I was really keen, you know, that we move back to Melbourne.

Yeah.

And, yeah, so we did. And, you know, his work as well, like, it. He'd changed careers and there wasn't sort of much happening for him in that area.

He was having to travel a lot. So that sort of made sense for him as well, like, I suppose, which brought him along because he always loved living there.

And in the, you know, years later was like, you know, why did you make us move back? And all that. But at that time, his. His work also meant that we, you know, needed to move back. So. Yeah. Yeah, it was good to be back with family.

You know, we. Some friends who had left that church as well. We're going to a Pentecostal church. Oh. And in between that, when we.

We'd gone to a Baptist church before, we moved back to Melbourne and then we got started going to a Pentecostal church. And, you know, it was great to be with. Back with some friends who had been at the old church and, you know, have that. We really like the worship and.

Yeah, the music would have been wildly different.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And, yeah, like, it's that focus on, you know, the gifts and, you know, I just.

I look back now, you know, I also thought, like, you know, can be quite performative. And, you know, he. My ex, he got a lot of esteem, I suppose that I think, you know, any. Any guy in a church gets a gold medal just for turning up. Yep.

And when you're in, you know, you turn up to a church and all that, I. I would see, you know, this is later on when we moved as well. Like, when you're being welcomed, you know, you can just. They all just gravitate to the.

To the guy and shake the hands and you're like this weird appendage. Like, you know, they may acknowledge you, they may not. So, yeah, you just.

You see the status that's given there and, you know, if you sort of, you know, prostrate yourself on the floor during worship or if you respond to a worship call or, you know, you're. You're speaking in tongues. Like, you know, if, like, all that, you know, sort of seen as spiritual, then you get.

Everybody just assumes you're a great person.

Yeah.

And so, I mean, throughout all of these changes, because one, that's a lot of. It's just a lot of moving, which is a lot of change.

It's a lot of very different flavors of Christianity and Church styles and different beliefs, different perspectives, different opinions. And so what was. I mean, and that's hard enough as it is.

I think in is all of that change, but how did all of that then interact and translate to how you were experiencing life at home? Like who were you at home? Who were you in that relationship?

Yeah, well, we started having. Yeah. As I alluded to before having kids. So that changed a lot with my, the expectations and role upon me.

Yeah, I sort of talked about before that I sort of thought that I wouldn't work during having the smaller kids. But with his career change it meant that I needed to, to bring in the money. And look, I. I've always liked work.

You know, at some points it was really, it was part time. Like it was two days a week or it was 0.5, you know, two and a half days a week.

So yeah, that was, that was, you know, in, you know, hindsight it's good that I was, I kept working because, you know, I kept being able to be independent and bring in, you know, some money. But yeah, it was, there was a lot on me.

But so getting the kids, you know, once after maternity leave, getting them to child care and then getting them to school, getting them home and like it was just, I was just too busy like, and just surviving and you know, I would that constant sort of trying to be equal in the. Or, you know, give. Ensure that, you know, he did some things.

So like, some things that I tried like was like to have a sleep in one morning of the weekend, like to take turns and so then I could, would have a sleeping and he could, you know, do the morning because the kids get up at like 5 o' clock or something. And so this was sort of after, you know, the breastfeeding and all that. So.

But what he would do is he'd lie on the couch and then sort of half look after them but then go back to bed for the rest of the day and then so then it would be stuck with me. So I learned that like, you know, I would sort of be punished for asking for. Yeah.

For him to do stuff because he would, he would do it but then he'd protest and make me pay later. Yeah. And there'd be things like, you know, he was really wanted to do stuff around the house.

You know, he wanted to spend time in the garden and he'd start these projects that were big that would like need him to spend time or not. Like he did crazy paving over a perfectly good footpath.

And so for like five years there was Uneven footpath which I would, you know, sprain my ankle on when I was pregnant and all that stuff. Like, well, we started. We knew we were living on a main road and he started a fence. And then that took years as well.

And so, like, he wanted to do it, but then also he'd want to, you know, just relax after a hard week at work. And so then I would take the kids out for the day so he could do that project and then I'd get home and he may have done something he may not have.

And so it was all like, very much all the kids stuff was on me and then he could do as he pleased. And. Yeah, I resented that. Yeah, yeah.

I mean, you, like, you obviously mentioned like the physical violence that occurred in that first year. And did that continue? Did it escalate? Did it ever de.

Escalate?

You know, were you constantly walking on eggshells this entire time?

Yeah, look, it was probably. There'd be different times. It might be a few months in between something physical and.

Yeah, but there was that coercive control, you know, just with respect to like, you know, if the kids. I remember once, you know, I was. I had the kids, kids after work and I was doing that, they call it arsenic hour, the bath time.

And they were all just screaming. And he was sleeping in bed because he'd been, you know, tired from work. And I was doing all.

And he got up and he was really cross with me that they were being too loud and that, you know, why was I letting that happen? And then, you know, he took the kids away from me and they were all screaming and.

And so, because I couldn't control them so that they weren't screaming. But then he comes out and then he withholds them. And so they felt scared as well. So, yeah, it was trying to protect them from it as well.

Like, I would take the kids sometimes to my parents. Sometimes if they were in bed, something had happened, I'd leave. Sometimes he wouldn't let me leave. Like, he'd take the keys and you.

And so he'd block me from leaving. I remember once that I was in. I think I was in like my, you know, slippers or something, and he wouldn't let me leave.

And I walked, I think, three and a half kilometers to my sister in law's house just to, you know, have some time out to tell her she'd actually witnessed as well.

Like something where, you know, when I was pregnant with my first child and we had a disagreement about something, I wanted his help for something and he didn't want to do it and I just went ahead and did it. So that's when it happened when I was just like stuff, I'm just going to do what I want to do. And then he came and he pushed me.

I was heavily pregnant and yeah, I didn't actually remember until my sister in law told me years later that he pushed me hard enough that I fell over. But I don't, I didn't actually remember that. So. Yeah, so yeah, just. And then just the shouting and. Yeah. Being angry and leave me alone and. Yeah.

And then sometimes with where he was at with his mental health, like worrying or wondering if he'd be alive when I got home.

I just never felt like I could like, you know, I, I couldn't help him sometimes, you know, so I reached out to his dad and his dad was, would drop everything and come and you know, be with him. Yeah. And he wouldn't, he'd get the help but.

And counseling sometimes, but only after a lot like that would be some of my, you know what I'd say in the aftermath. Like, you have to go get counseling. This can't go on.

And then, you know, it might take weeks for him to get the appointment and then he'd find a counselor and it wouldn't gel or they'd gel with him and then he'd get challenged and he wouldn't like them anymore and end that. And there were times that I had like I'd go along as well and I would disclose things and yeah.

Like I just look back going like, you know, when I've disclosed things like, you know, what was the duty of care of those people that heard things and to, of what they'd say to me and to him? Yeah, yeah.

I mean were you, and this is a weird question, but it might not be.

Were you engaging with like actual counselors, like as in like trained, licensed counselors or were you engaging with like church pastoral counselors combination? Yeah, yeah.

Mostly the church ones. Yeah.

That would not have, you know, the highest qualifications and, and I mean that probably would be the only reason though that he would go because understanding, you know, that world view and. Yeah.

And that there'd be lots of, you know, counselors that don't have that worldview, that wouldn't understand, would make you feel like, you know, you're crazy because you have those beliefs.

Yeah, yeah. And so was the message from the church based counselors was that to pray more, was that to forgive? Was that to, you know, like spiritual.

Answers, so to speak?

Yeah. Yeah, it was about like the couple counseling as well, like what we could do with our evening routines. Yeah.

So there was that like, I remember, you know, that whole we gotta take make time for ourselves.

And so we came up with this and it was all this like really, you know, stereotypical stuff like that the man doesn't want to talk to anyone when he gets home and he needs that half an hour to debrief and yeah, the woman's gotta, you know, give him that space.

And then I'm like, well, you need to let me talk and you know like trying to find that middle ground and then, then that like, well, who do you put first? Is it the kids or the husband? And you've got to put your husband first. And so how does that look with an evening routine? So like we're trying.

I remember there was one routine where it was like, you know, by 8 o' clock it was a goal was to have the kids in bed, you know, bath, dinner, bedtime stories, prayer and all that. But he wouldn't really help me get to that point. Yeah.

And then the kids would want me to stay for a bit longer and then I'd get blamed for not putting him first or high enough because I, you know, not met that 8 o' clock deadline.

So but you know, he wasn't really helping or even if he was, he'd just be like, oh, stuff and you know, I'd be left to deal with the consequences of how the kids were and managing their emotions and where they were at and then. But by that time I was resentful and didn't want to spend that time with him. By the time. Yeah, free to spend the time with him.

Yeah, absolutely.

And so. Okay, now the double barreled question, which is how long were you married? Like the, like what was that length of time?

And during that you know, entire sort of like marriage, what was your relationship with God like?

Because I know that it becomes very complicated when, you know, you are taught that three corded marriage and yet there is abuse happening in this marriage and why is God letting this happen kind of thing that happens for a lot of people. And so what was that like for you for the length of time that you were married?

Yeah, well, we ended up so about. Sorry, I'm going.

Yes.

Yeah, yeah. So and then. Yeah, the. So sorry. I know you might have to keep going back to what the questions were.

That's okay. What was your relationship with God like, throughout? Like, how did the. The impact of the abuse impact your relationship with God?

Yeah. Yeah. Well, I know I would. After things happened, I would leave and go and spend time in nature. And I know you talk a lot about that with people, and.

Yeah. So I really, you know, loved and connected with God in nature. So, like, I felt like he was the refuge for me.

But then, like, also this year, the forgiveness part of it, I just always grappled with that. And I call it the forgiveness paradox because. Yeah. Particularly in an intimate partner relationship. Yeah. It's like that was.

I was encouraged to forgive and forgive and forgive. You know, like, forgive 70 times 70, you know, always you got to forgive. And. And so I think that's.

Yeah, I find it really hard, and it's a little bit of a tricky triggering word for me now.

Yeah.

Because. And I know, you know, that whole. It can help you, the person who forgives and all that. I know that part of it.

But in terms of giving him that forgiveness, like, I gave it to him over and over, and I resent that now.

And then it was, you know, this was also from that church, and the upbringing was that if I didn't forgive, like, forgiveness looked a certain way, and if I didn't, for example, like, within two minutes, forget about that had happened and, you know, treat him like he was white as snow and, you know, pure. And. And I would be holding onto unbelief.

Yeah.

And. And into pity. And it was my problem.

Yeah.

And he also, like.

Yeah, the apology, you know, I knew that, like, repentance, you know, in talking about that in the church, I'd say to turn away, and that means that you. You know, you should actually change your behavior. And I knew that he wasn't. But then there was also that.

That sometimes, you know, when you yourself or you're in those church circles, there's like, two types of transformation. There's the. You know, the one that happens in the. In the.

In the moment where, you know, somebody radically, you know, for example, is not addicted to drugs anymore. The radical one or the gradual one. And so I was praying for both, for either, but I would prefer the radical one.

Yeah.

But then the.

The gradual one, it means that, like, you might see someone change the next day, like, they're sorry, they're in the honeymoon phase, you know, this abuse cycle. And so, yeah, you see that change, and then Maybe the. The level of the abuse with respect to. Oh, it wasn't a push, but it was a shout.

So that's a gradual change. Like, you know, so you sort of. You're always holding on to this, you know, the desperation that.

That there's going to be a change and a permanent change and enough of a change. Yeah, stay there. So, yeah. And in the. Like, I remember, you know, I talked earlier about not, you know, that holding it in. You're not.

Not telling people. And, you know, there's. There is a shame of that, you know, your dignity, you know, that that's happened to you.

And so there's that, you know, just admitting that that's happened to you, but then also people's reactions, so. Because, you know, you can downplay it or gaslight yourself, but other people can do it as well.

Oh, yeah.

I would call that ironic.

Or.

Or fate or serendipity or whatever you want to call it.

Yeah, yeah. So I was then, in getting to learn about it and what it looked like and then having those moments. Oh, wow, that is me. I'm experiencing that.

Yeah. And we talk so often. I talk about it with my clients.

I talk about it on the podcast all the time, about the power that when we have language for what we are experiencing, like, true, correct, right. Language for what's been going on, the impact that that has.

And so what was the impact on you when you had language of love bombing, of gaslighting, of coercive control, of the cycle of abuse?

I didn't really have that language at that time, but I was learning. Yeah. But I. I think I was just still a little bit, like, it's not happening to me, but. Yeah, but what I remember.

So this is probably two years, two to three years after I'd started working in that field. And, you know, now I've got three kids and, you know, we've. Yes. You know, not still, you know, bad relationship. There was this video that our.

At work that was playing, and it was about how to recognize the signs of abuse in a friend. And. And I was animated, and I was looking at it, going, oh, my gosh, I'm that friend. That's me. So. And then I kept on grappling with as well.

Like, is this enough for me to, you know, leave a marriage? Like, it just, there was such a big mountain. Like there was so, so long. Like it was just, I'm in it for life. Like, that's another thing with.

Loyalty is another triggering word to me because I was, was fiercely loyal, but it didn't serve me because I was just, you know, staying there. Yeah. And like another, you know, just phrase around with the, you know, forgiveness and all that.

Like, you know, he would say to me, and this was like after, you know, later, after we'd separated, but he'd go, don't you believe in a redemptive Jesus? So it's like, it's on me. Can't you believe that I've changed?

So the first time like that, this first separation, I might talk around, like leading up to that, like we were hosting a small group and actually this is probably a year before we went to a church marriage course called Love After Marriage. It was a Bethel church course.

I know of it. Yes.

Yeah. And so it was a 13 week course. We got a young lady from church to a volunteer to look after our kids so we could go.

And what I was really hoping for was like, because I just kept on wanting to make it work. I wanted to fix it. I wanted to fix him. I want him to want. I wanted him to want to fix himself.

And so, you know, we would have these sort of small groups within that and there was a topic each week and we had some really good conversations in those groups. Yeah.

And there were lots of things covered in that church course that, you know, might be talked about, maybe not from the pulpit but, you know, explored or acknowledged in church that things are happening.

So, you know, there was an acknowledgement that affairs might happen and, you know, that what I suppose, you know, how people can forgive in that there was acknowledgement that, that men might use pornography and you know, how. That, you know, there were courses around that. You know, there's one called Valiant man.

And you know, personally, I, you know, I really hated pornography and you know, found out that he was. Yeah. You know, using it and, and he denied it. And, you know, that was really hard for me.

So, yeah, that we went to this church course and there were things like they were talking about, like really intimate, that stuff, like, you know, the how to have a better sex life and all that things. And. But there was not one mention, not one mention at all that abuse might be happening in the marriage. And I just, I felt really sad about that.

And the people that were Leading it. They came over. They needed to check in with all the couples, and towards the end, and they came over and I had.

Sometimes, you know, what I experienced from his behavior was Jekyll and Hyde. Like, I just couldn't pick sometimes.

Sometimes I could pick when he was upset, but sometimes, like that time of the carrots, I'm like, I did not see that coming.

Yeah.

So I would sometimes just say, you know, in the aftermath, stop being such Jekyll and Hyde and all that. And so I. In. When they came over, I mean, I just.

I didn't tell them about what was going on, but I did tell them that I was saying, you know, to him that he was like Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde. And then I asked for forgiveness for putting that label on him. So I didn't feel like I could talk about it. And then I'm.

I'm taking it on that it's my problem because I'm putting it on him that he's like that. That. And so that's just so crazy, you know? Yeah.

The twisting that happens is. Is sometimes like the. The only word that comes to mind is that sometimes the twisting is absolutely ludicrous. Like, it just.

We cannot make sense of it. And I don't want to make sense of it because it doesn't make sense, but it is just absolutely ludicrous and so harmful for.

For the person who is in your position in that situation.

Yeah. There was a small group that we were leading. There was a couple in there that had. Were separated.

And I got to a bit of the story from the person, the. The woman, and there was some domestic violence going on.

And she had told me about her experience of going to the church about it, and that she just felt like they didn't handle it well and that they sort of wrapping their arms around him and wanting to support him and how could he be better and turn around and all that stuff. So I think I was at that point thinking, you know, is this.

You know, I was probably starting to be open to a separation, you know, and then I heard, you know, that. So I'm like, okay, I took down that message then that, okay, I'm not hearing about it.

That acknowledge that the church is not acknowledging that it's existing in their congregations. And then, like, in general, like the soup that you're in. And then when people actually go and say there's a problem, then they don't handle it well.

Yeah.

So then, yeah, I ended up.

I Googled, you know, the night before, ended up happening the first separation about separating from a husband in Christian marriage, when it's emotional abuse because I was like, okay, the physical stuff happens, but it's not that much.

So, you know, should I end it just because it happens every now and then and then when the emotional stuff happens and it's like the non physical, is that enough?

And so, so thankfully, that particular article saying yes, it's enough, you know, I just didn't want it, you know, that whole stigmatizing around separation and divorce in the church and people meddling and assuming and yeah, I just wanted to avoid all that.

And then like, we were actually going to move back to Regional Victoria and because, you know, the price of real estate in Melbourne was outrageous and we were going to move back and we bought a house down there and I'd, you know, was moving schools, all that sort of moving jobs, looking for jobs down there and. But then something in me was going, hang on, yes, you liked the beach, you liked the community, but you were isolated.

So it sort of then brought me to that point of making the decision that I didn't want to move like this. All the things, I don't know what's going to happen with him, but I don't want to move.

And so, yeah, I, you know, one afternoon on a Saturday, we'd also had a bit of a fight.

I took the kids to a play center and got on the phone to 1-800-Respect and then they put me onto Safe Steps and then Safe Steps offered me emergency accommodation and I didn't have, we just had the clothes on our back. I had, I think my work laptop and said, and they'd said to me, oh, look, you don't have to make a decision to, you know, finish things now.

But it's like this is to give you space to think because you can't think, you can't be of clarity in this situation. So they didn't.

There was no strings on it and I'm glad it was available because it's not available to everybody who needs it at the time they need it. But I was really glad I got offered that.

And yeah, so we found out where I lived and so I had the emergency accommodation fair way apart from where I lived. And then I got offered a, you know, accepted into a refuge as well. And.

But my friend from church that I talked about, she'd gone to the police and got an order where like, he was pretty much evicted from the house. So I was wanting to then follow that because I'm like, well, yeah, I don't want to go into hiding and give up my support.

So I was, you know, also making an assessment that I thought I was safe enough in that, like, you know. You know, you've got to make that assessment about, you know, some women. Yeah, they. They literally. That's their only choice. So stay alive.

Yeah. Yeah. And so what. What has the. What has the recovery been like for you since leaving that relationship?

Just personally?

Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Can I just talk about going back? Is that all right?

Yeah.

Okay. So I. He moved back to his parents, and then. But he didn't have the, you know, like to have the kids to run a house or do all that.

So it was probably like he could do all the work he needed on himself, but then without all the life hassles, I suppose. So I did. You know, he promised he'd changed. He wrote me these letters that, you know, were proclaiming how he changed.

And he had all these visions of, like, scales falling off him. I don't know. Think of the book of Daniel. Oh, yes, you'll. All those visions, and they were in those letters.

Yeah.

Yeah. And, yeah. So I was like, okay, he's changed.

And, you know, by the time our wedding anniversary came up and then the school holidays, and his parents were sort of saying, oh, we can't really go on for this, you know, having him stay with us, he'd move back. And I. You know, one of my conditions was they did the men's behavior change program. And it's. You know, he learned a bit from that.

And, you know, things changed a bit. Like, you know, there was a change, but. And then we moved house again, moved churches, because I just always wanted fresh starts. And then, yeah, it.

You know, probably we'd moved to the area. And about, you know, that first year, something physical happened again. And I was like.

I'd made this promise to myself, and I told him, if it happens again, that's it. And then, you know, he's. I left to the. You know, think about it. And I was a bit shocked.

And then he's crying to the kids, saying, she's gonna leave me. She's gonna leave me. And then I get home. Don't leave him. Don't leave him. And, you know, that was.

He'd involved the kids in it, and that's what had happened the first time as well. Like, the just lack of appropriateness and boundaries with the kids, like. And.

And, yeah, so I had to enact a plan the second time around that meant that I would stick to it. Like, I made a decision That I would move out. Like lots of people can't understand that.

But like I needed to sign a 12 month lease so I wouldn't back out of it.

I needed to cut, you know, I didn't cut contact for a little bit but you know, eventually I did and I needed, you know, I had a safety plan about the conversation.

So my sister flew down from an interstate to have a conversation to ensure that he left as well and that he wouldn't beg me to like relent and all that. So yeah, I had to enact this plan to stay strong to that decision. And then. Yeah.

And then by him staying in the house of meant that he wouldn't have that extra like level of you know, so he could function I suppose, you know, his best that he could to be able to go to work and all that.

So I had to think about that all the time because then if he couldn't then he couldn't be you know, there for the kids and he couldn't bring in a paycheck, all that sort of stuff. So yeah, just there was lots of things. Yeah.

And it sounds like the previous like his mental health and his vulnerabilities were part of what would draw you back in.

And so you know I imagine there's also a part of that safety plan of like if he is there and he is like okay ish then it's more ability for you to stick to that plan that you were trying to act.

And I had to get to a point to make that decision. The final decision that he could well yeah. Die by suicide. Like I just, I had to, you know he, he might have. I just like, I just have to do it.

Like I'm, you know, I have to think about the kids.

I want to them to know that I'm making a stand about what isn't okay in a relationship and hopefully you know that they don't end up in those relationships. Yeah.

So you know like I seen that movie ends with us and I hope so but really you know with the impacts of it and what the script that was set for my kids and now like you know there's. There's lots of fighting, they don't know how to get along and there's been lots of parentification like from the other side and all that.

So I just, you know maybe the best I can hope with is that it lessens, it reduces. I don't know if it will then and recovery. Like I discovered this book. It was amazing. Lundy Bancroft.

I don't know why he does that inside the ends, inside the minds of angry and controlling men. That was just amazing. Like, he's got the playbook there. Got 20 years of experiences with victim survivors and perpetrators in there. Yeah, yeah.

And is that when some of the language that we were talking about earlier was really starting to land with you?

Yeah, yeah.

And I'd also, you know, in between the first and the second separation, had worked at an, at a fam Women's health agency that was also a family Violence Response Service. And yeah, like, so I learned a lot about it there and I also learned a lot about trauma.

And so they were doing this trauma informed work and they were training all the staff. So I had three full days of training in it and you know, learning about the. Yeah, Fight, Fright, Fly, Freeze, Fawn, you know, all those ones. So.

And not going, wow, this is me. This is me all the time.

And, and now like, I know, for example, like I can pick when trauma's happening and you know, when, when a fight escalates or something or. And I'll just, you know, remove myself or I'll tell people, you know, to stop or I'll. But.

But it doesn't really help with respect to, you know, being able to parent well and when kids are fighting because I just need to sort of deal with where I'm at in the moment.

Yeah, yeah. And so, and I'm conscious of time and I like to give people a bit of a picture as to like, what is life like for you now?

Yeah, yeah, it's really good. Yeah. I've got a new partner. Been with him for almost two years. Beautiful.

He's not Christian and I've sort of copped a bit of that from some friends, I suppose. But I'm like, well, I'm on my own faith journey. I call myself a progressive Christian now. I know a lot what I don't believe.

I've got a, you know, landing on what I do believe is a lot harder.

Yes, I can relate the time I sit in an, I don't know, space. So I like that.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. So. And then, you know, when the kids go to the dad like that that's. They're getting the really, like he's become more conservative and that's hard.

And you know, his parents and all that as well, like just that messages they're getting and then that and then navigating that Particularly with young boys and, and, and adolescence and then the social media and all that as well and the manosphere and all that. So. Yeah, it's hard. But yeah, for me I, Yeah, I'm. Things are going really well.

I'm on, on my own journey and recovering and yeah, I've gone on no contact. That's just the, the best thing for me.

You know, when, when the kids put the phone on speaker though, and I hear his voice, I like, I just want to go somewhere else. And. Yeah, you know, the drop offs are at the top of the driveway and.

Yeah, like, just because a lot of things happened afterwards as well, like with COVID and you know, anti vax stuff happened and you know, not for me. But yeah, all that came into it and you know. Yeah. Belief in conspiracy theories and all that.

So there's been a, you know, much more of a chasm has opened up in between like, you know, my ex and myself. And you know, the kids often say to me that I moderated him or they can see that now because of, you know, where he is now. So. Yeah, it's.

Yeah, it's hard because like, you gotta keep parenting. Like, you gotta keep. I can't. You can't like as I'm saying, cut contact. But that's. I still, you know, we still got kids together.

Yeah.

Still, you know, still gotta pay for things for the kids and so, you know, get, get the child support, all that and you know, trying to try and keep in contact with the other side of the family as well so that, that they, you know, have access to their grandchildren and nieces and nephews. So.

Yeah, it's messy.

Right.

I think people think, you know, leaving it and it's, you know, you reach a point of, of safety both physically and, and starting that journey of like personal, like internal safety. But it's, it's messy and none of that is, none of that is smooth.

And particularly if the, like you said, the chasm between you continues to widen, it just means more room for the messiness.

Yeah.

So it's, it's tricky is I, I like to ask like what I mean and you've already answered one of the questions that I usually. Which is around your own spirituality.

But what would you say is like one of the top one or two things that have been supportive for you along recovering over the last few years.

Yeah. Being able to talk to people.

I, you know, I had a really good friend, you know, she's still a great friend who throughout, like, you know, from the church that I went To. To now, like, she was one of my bridesmaids and that I was able to disclose to her at the time. And you know, one of.

After the first physical episode after the, you know, when we'd reunited and I told her about it and she's like, just encouraged me to leave. You know, you don't have to, you know, stay there. Like, so that was great. And I value, you know, her in that. And so I. I've talked to people.

I've, you know, I try and like, within the church, like, I'm on the church safe committee as well, really, you know, and I'm on a domestic and family violence working group for a Christian social justice organization.

And, you know, for me talking, I've lots of people come to me now, like, about, you know, if it's them or if it's friends, like family members for advice. And I just. I don't shy away in naming abuse and in being cross at the perpetual lips.

I'm like 100.

And I just, you know, I share with them. I just say to them, yeah, and. And like, a lot of the things like they. People will say in the. I suppose they're not the.

The secular world about, you know, talk. Don't say to women, why don't they leave and why do they stay?

But I really feel like in the church circles or if, you know, people that are in those, the message women need to be hearing is it's okay to leave.

Yes, you can.

Like, you're not gonna, you know, like this whole God hates divorce, you know, that, you know, how that's being misused and the fear and, you know, it can be right. Fear of like, social rejection and all that as well from those circles, but.

And, you know, just that whole navigating, like a separation and a divorce, like, it's massive. Like, you know, no matter if you're in a church or not. So, yeah, I just think that whole it's okay to leave.

And now, like, thankfully, you know, we've got, you know, the society we're in and unfortunately, you know, the terrible things that have happened, you know, I think in Victoria, you know, like Rosie Batty, that was a pivotal moment.

And then, you know, it was happening in Queensland with Hannah Clark, that those have changed the narrative in society and there's still a long way to go, but, like, there's now services and. And all that. Like, yeah, so recovery and, you know, like, there's still a lot that needs to be done for kids.

And that's sort of starting to come out in the, in the news more now like Jess Hill and all that. So you know, really follow her. She's great. Yes, she is. Yes.

And, and I love. There is like a natural lead in I think now to what is usually my last question of these episodes which is to offer some encouragement to people.

But I'm wondering whether like what would you say to someone who is potentially sitting in a space place where you have been there in a, in a marriage, in a relationship, in the church and there is you know, any form of intimate partner abuse, emotional, physical, verbal, all of the things. And what would you say to that person?

I'd say that it's like it is abuse.

Like don't minimize it like and, and I'm not going to put that on the person either that they're minimizing it but just really acknowledge and sit with it and go like you know, any moment of abuse it is enough. Like you don't like, you know, forgiveness in an intimate relationship. I think it has to look different.

Like you know it's, it's not about giving a free pass to the other person. You can and you know like recovery can for them can look and consequences they can that can happen outside of you staying married.

You don't have to like you know, give them that out I suppose.

But yeah, just it's you know you can, you can put yourself first, put the oxygen mask on and yeah, you're worthy and it's just, it's gonna be seem really, really hard and you know this massive thing and you know, hard to contemplate what life would like be look like. And I would encourage people to go to non secular support services as well like the 1-800 respect.

Some churches are getting better but, and, and you know, but I would not say with respect to response and just, just like you know, you might get things from them good things in the support journey. You know I'm not going to say it's all going to be bad.

There's lots of work happening in different churches around acknowledging this and doing better.

But I just, the primary thing is to go to a non secular service like you know, call 1-800-RESPECT and it might be, you know they say people can be up to seven times leaving. You know for me it was twice.

And there are lots of things, things that yeah, you might keep, you keep going back and it's not on you for that but it's okay to actually contemplate that leaving and it's not a reflection on your spirituality. You don't have. They're not all tied together. Yes.

I love that they're not all tied together. I think that's such an important aspect of this as well. Yeah. Thank you so much for joining me and sharing your story so openly.

Thank you. Yeah, thank you. It's been great chatting with you, Sam. I really appreciate it. Yeah. Thank you.

Thanks for listening to beyond the Surface. If this episode resonated, challenged you, or named something you've struggled to put words to, I'm really glad you found your way here.

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