Dr Liz Box and the award-winning Chris Bensted join me to tackle all the latest news from within our driving instructor world and look at the key topic of why young people crash.

Check out links from the episode:

• Theory Test Explained
• The DITC
• RAC Foundation
• CoPilot
• ADINJC
• NASP notes

For more information on The Instructor Podcast visit https://www.theinstructorpodcast.com/

For additional content and exclusive discounts, be sure to check out our Premium subscription - Here you'll find lots of extra content, including:

• Episodes on the Standards check and how to break down each individual competency so you're fully aware of what to expect, how to prepare, and how to perform.
• Exclusive shows with industry leaders including Bob Morton, San Harper, and Kev & Tracey Field.
• Live 'Expert Sessions' on industry-specific topics including; How to teach roundabouts.
• As a member, you'll also receive exclusive discounts for GoRoadie Pro, Client Centred learning training, The ADI/PDI Doctor, and The Guild of Mindful Driver Trainers.

The Instructor Podcast uses a variety of social media channels, including a Facebook group. You can join the group or follow us on the following platforms:

• Facebook
• Twitter
• LinkedIn
• Instagram
• YouTube
• And be sure to check out the DITC

Takeaways:

• The podcast highlights the importance of ongoing driver education even after passing the driving test, emphasizing that real learning happens on the road, not just in the classroom.
• A fun discussion on the differences between instructors and how they engage with their students reveals that building rapport can greatly enhance learning outcomes.
• The hosts stress that young drivers are at a higher risk of accidents due to lack of experience and impulsive decisions, making post-test support crucial.
• The episode discusses the concept of graduated driver licensing (GDL) and how it can help ensure safer driving habits in young drivers during their first year.
• Listeners are encouraged to embrace the educational potential of driving instructors, suggesting that better training could lead to lower accident rates among new drivers.
• The importance of understanding social pressures on young drivers is explored, highlighting how peer influence can lead to risky driving behavior and the need for instructors to address this.

The Instructor podcast with Terry Cook talking with leaders, innovators, experts and game changers.

About what drives them.

So welcome to the Green Room.

This is a show we cover all the latest news and hot topics from within the driving instructor world.

And as always, I am your mediocre host, Terry Cook.

I'm delighted to be here, but you'll be delighted that it is not just me, for I am joined by two people of tremendous wisdom.

First up, we're joined by the excellent Dr.

Elizabeth Box.

How are we doing, Dr.

Box?

Yeah, good, thanks, Terry.

Thanks for the invite.

No, genuinely to chuffed to have you on, Stan.

I think that we've actually got Stuart Lockery watching the recording today, so I feel it is appropriate to mention this.

There is a difference in class between me and Stuart in that when Stuart speaks about you, he will regularly refer to you as Dr.

Elizabeth Box, when I will just call you Liz generally.

So Penny is fine, that's all good.

Yeah.

I think there's a difference between me and Stuart though.

But we're also joined by someone who isn't a doctor.

I don't believe he's a doctor anyway, but he is the winner of the GoRodit SEM Provider of the Year, Mr.

Chris Benstead.

How are we doing, Chris?

Hello.

I'm good, thank you.

I just get Doctor, Dr.

Box, the like theme tune from Dr.

Fox in my head every time.

So, you know, we've got three different approaches.

Does sound a bit like a Mr.

Man character, doesn't it?

The value of the surname.

Well, that's my attention gone for the rest of the episode now, Chris, well done on the award.

Thank you.

I know I'm really chuffed.

I thoroughly appreciate people voting and it's firstly, it's been great for business, it's been a really busy week with people getting in touch who haven't been in touch before, instructors that haven't been in touch before.

So, you know, it's, it's raised awareness, which is what, you know, what we need.

So, yeah, it's awesome.

Thank you.

I didn't win one this time, which is either, I think, because I'm not good enough, which is the high possibility, or because I never bother asking people to vote for me, which is also another possibility.

But either way, let's get stuck in because later on in this episode we are going to be talking about sort of how do we create safe drivers and why do many people crash within that first year post test and what can we as instructors do to almost prevent that?

But there is a little Bit of news.

So first up I want to reflect back on last month because last month I spoke a little bit about some of the new driving schools that have come out and how I was quite optimistic and positive about that.

Chris, you were a little bit more reserved in holding judgment until you saw what was going on.

But I suppose now it's appropriate that you'll tell people why I was a bit more optimistic, which is because I have teamed up with Phil Cowley and Diana Todd to release our driving school, which is support driving school.

And it felt appropriate for me to mention that considering I plugged everyone else last time.

So I may as well speak a moment to plug myself.

Now I'm not going to plug it any more than that, but I did want to get it in and I'm not going to ask you two to comment because I think that is slightly too much plugging and also unfair.

But I do want to take a moment to give a special shout out to two people and that is Fjorn Meekin and Josephine Defalco Fisher.

Now both of these folks are the first people to qualify from bright coaching with the professional diploma in coaching and behavioral change for safe driving.

Now I specifically want to mention this because I think that this is a great achievement.

I've been championing this for quite a while.

It's something that I am keen to do.

I was keen to do this year, then decided to launch a driving school instead.

So that's gone by the wayside slightly.

But I'm keen to ask your guys thoughts on this and in particular from you Liz, to begin with because I can outsider looking in if you like.

I'm keen to know how it feels for you that someone that has deeply embedded in the road safety sector to see that there are these types of courses, professional developments available for instructors and there are that many people actually jumping on board with this stuff.

That must be quite a good sort of feeling for you if you like.

Yeah, no it's.

It's really great to hear and I was in touch with Stuart as he was developing the course as well.

So had a look at what it was involving and yeah, it's just really good to bring those two different areas together, isn't it?

The kind of the practical real world driving instructor world.

We've kind of what we know from behavioral science and I talk about it a lot but you guys are literally there with the student.

You have that captive moment and that time and the real opportunity to make a difference.

They listen to instructors in the way that they might not listen to lots of other people in this space.

So I think having those tools and techniques that are based in behavioural science, I think it can only be a positive thing.

So, yeah, really great to see.

I want to kind of just touch on your thoughts on this.

But also just something that Liz said there about students listening to instructors where they don't always listen to everyone else.

Now I reckon there's some instructors that have heard that comment and gone.

They don't listen to me.

So two thoughts there.

That one.

And then also the bright coach and seeing people starting to qualify from that.

Was it to me.

Sorry, I missed the fact that you were talking to me.

I thought you were going back.

My apologies.

I was just.

It's nice to sit here and listen to someone that's not Terry.

So I'm honest, what can I say?

I think yeah, a lot of the time, you know, when you've said the same thing, you know, 10, 20 times and it hasn't sunk in yet because you haven't said it in the right way, in the right place at the right time, it can be really frustrating.

And then all of a sudden they come back to you and say, oh, my dad said I need to slow down on the approach to roundabouts and you bang your head against the dashboard really hard.

You know that you can sometimes have that view of people don't listen but they're turning up and they are listening.

And I think what we then need to do is make the best of what we say and make the words mean the most or make the best examples of the moments that we get.

And that's where training such as bright coaching's course are.

You know, that's where it sits in and sits above what we get as a minimum standards approach from the DVSA who don't set, you know, a syllabus or what have you for training that, you know, it is just test based that having having those skills.

And I was, I did some training on Monday with, I won't name names but with one of the, the support driving school mentors and you know, we, we were commenting on the importance of words.

You know, just literally changing a word can change so much and the meaning of things.

We're not very good at that when it comes to entry level training.

But the further down the track you get and the more training you get, the more you realize that the subtle things are the really important things.

I think when it comes to behavioral change those things are, you know, they're so important and we can all sit around and debate one word for a long time as to whether it makes a difference.

So I think, you know, yeah, it shows that there is an opportunity out there.

I hope that those instructors that feel that they're not listened to find a way that they can be listened to more because it means you're succeeding.

The irony isn't lost in me, the fact that we're talking about people not listening and how you started answering that question.

But I must admit that I will never forget how I discovered not to see it go straight over the roundabout.

Because that was an interesting, interesting response.

But, yes.

So, yeah, again, I don't want to talk about that too much because I don't want to plug Stuart too much because I plug him enough already.

But I'm just, I don't know, I'm pleased we've got this in our industry.

I think it filled a hole that was missing after what happened with Trike coaching.

And, you know, just looking at the.

I'm not saying it's because of Stuart, but looking at the things that have come on as a result of that or a follow on from that, I think is.

I think Stuart's led the way and I think it's led to some other good causes coming up as well.

But, but I did mention that we cover the news and As a result, Dr.

Boss, you came with some, some news of your own.

So do you want to share some of the news we've brought for us?

Yeah, sure, Terry.

I mean, I think when you said, oh, we, we often have a news segment on this and I was thinking actually, what, what's happened?

Because, you know, January is always a bit of a funny month for everybody, isn't it?

But actually, I think that generally seemed really busy.

I don't know for me, certainly, and I think for lots of people, but.

So there's been a few things happening in the policy space.

So one of them is people might have seen that the Roads Minister, Lillian Greenwood, spoke in a Westminster hall debate back in January.

It was around young driver safety being essentially called and really reaffirmed the government's current commitment that they have no plans to introduce graduated driver licensing.

There was a number of the forget me not families there, I think, in Westminster, and I think they would have found that incredibly hard to hear, you know, face to face that that is the case.

Obviously the campaign continues, certainly from break and rope and those involved, from the families.

You might have also seen that there's now a petition that has been launched by Crystal Owens that's essentially now I think reached around 100,000 signatures.

And that was all about can we have some post test restrictions that reduce the number of passengers you could have in the car within that first six months, just for 17 to 19 year olds.

So a very limited kind of graduated driver license in comparison to what we see elsewhere in the world.

At the RAC foundation, we did some work in the autumn last year looking at what would the effect of this sort of scheme be.

And it was essentially found that you could save around 44 lives, around 534, I think it was killed or seriously injured, collisions or casualties as a result of that scheme.

So even though it's minimal, it would do something.

So it's on a different platform.

I think it's not on the parliamentary platform.

So that doesn't mean it automatically triggers a debate when it reaches 100,000.

But obviously that puts more pressure and shows that there's certainly interest in this area.

So I think that's going to be one to watch in policy terms.

I think it's always interesting when people say we're not considering it at the moment.

I often tend to think that feels a bit more positive because it's not an outright no, is it?

So, and I think government certainly in that space at the moment, where they're considering lots of possibilities, I mean, this seems very unlikely that they're going to take it forwards, but it's not an outright no.

And in that discussion, Lillian Greenwood did say that they were looking at, you know, could you have a minimum learning period, could you have some elements of graduated driver licensing?

So they're certainly very keen to do some work in that space.

So hopefully we'll see a road safety strategic framework or strategy at some point, so we'll see what's in there.

Obviously there's the enabling legislation to put in place.

But they're still doing the monitoring reports to see kind of what the statistics are looking like and what might be affected by that scheme.

So that's always interesting to keep an eye on and see how things are going there.

I think from my perspective, just in terms of the GDL there, there's two things that stand out for me.

So if they're rejecting gdl, Think of the, I thought immediately of the PAX Road Safety Manifesto that was put forward last year.

They're already rejecting 25% or, you know, a quarter of that manifesto.

It was only four points long and they've rejected that aspect already.

And it's, I don't know, that just disheartens me.

But I think of us as instructors and I know there's at least one person in the, watching us today that doesn't wholeheartedly agree with me when I say this, but I do think it's relevant to instructors to be aware of GDL and promote gdl because they also, and this is somewhat where my brain's been ticking over a bit recently, and it stems from you, I think, a little bit, Chris, is that idea that the learning doesn't have to stop because you passed a driving test.

And I've really taken that on board this year and coming towards a test.

We're already booking lessons, post test and this, we'll touch on this later on in the episode, actually.

But I think if we're continuing to teach and have lessons with learners after a test, that's where GDL comes in.

It doesn't stop just because they've passed a test.

And I think that those conversations are relevant.

So, yeah, just wondering your thoughts on that, Chris.

I, I agree.

I think that there is, you know, there's a place for us to, to kind of bridge a gap.

It's a shame that there's still that gap there.

So, you know, it would, it would, I agree that they haven't said no, that that's a great thing because at least it does keep the door open.

Although if they did say no, sometimes it still keeps the door open because they're politicians and, you know, we're not allowed to talk about specific ones because they then get sacked.

We, yeah, we have a, have a track record.

So I think, you know, with regards us working in that space, I think the modular approach to learning, which then potentially steps either side of testing so that it does continue after test would be a nice approach, I don't think.

You know, it's probably not enough to class it as gdl, but it's, it could be an entry level kind of approach.

So I think that would work.

I just don't get why we ignore evidence, to be honest.

But that's more your field than mine.

You know, I, I, yeah, I'm, you know, I'm notoriously a jack of all trades.

I've been told that three times this week and it's only Tuesday.

But it's.

It just seems stupid.

I.

We can do something that's going to stop people dying.

We won't do that.

Minimal cost as well.

It's not.

It's not really a costly exercise.

And arguably you could also put in measures that put hurdles in place that reduce the waiting list.

So they're already using the theory test for that.

You know, they don't want to improve the theory test because we'd get more people queuing for the practical test.

So, yeah, I don't get it personally, but I do think there's an opportunity and maybe we can keep working towards it not being an official thing, that we just keep pushing for that ongoing training.

Yeah, I mean, I think you're certainly right, Chris, that there's components of graduated driver licensing, so the minimum learning periods.

Obviously, if you don't have that in force, people want to do it quicker and they won't want to take the hours necessarily.

But there's plenty of great students out there that want to do their best and actually if we can give them the information to help them.

And I think maybe the DVSA Ready to Pass campaign is helping to provide some of those messages, isn't there, about how many hours you should be looking to get so that you can more likely pass your driving test?

Because they're really motivated by that.

So you're right.

There's loads of messages that we can give and certainly around the risks, certainly that first six months, if you're driving at night with passengers, it's just massive.

So if we can get those messages across, that's great.

But, you know, for it to work, we need legislation because only some people will do it.

It becomes really hard for the other people to do it.

You know, it's an incredibly difficult area.

And, you know, I think even people that understand the topic say they find it really difficult to implement those things that they know are based in evidence, because everybody else is doing something different.

It's a kind of against the social norm.

And we make it really hard for parents and young people because that's kind of not what the law is.

So why would you do that?

And they're all wanting that freedom and independence.

So, yeah, no, it's incredibly difficult.

And it is one of those areas that we know there's such good evidence for, like, over decades.

And, yeah, it's just a sticking point.

And I think the work we did at the foundation in October, November last year, what we were trying to do was saying what could have the most impact with the most minimal effect.

So let's just focus on 17 to 19 year olds.

Let's not go up to 25 because that's a whole different ball game when you're 25 and what you're working towards and your commitments in life.

And actually the really risky group is that initial teenage, you know, 17 to 19.

Let's just focus on six months minimum learning periods, six months post test restrictions, because then by the time you're 18, you know, you're an adult and you can kind of drive independently.

And I think importantly about that proposal was once you've passed your test, you can drive yourself, you can get to education, you can get to employment.

You just aren't able to take your friends for a period of time.

So it seemed like the most minimal thing that could be done.

And yet even that wasn't really accepted.

So we just have, we have to keep trying, I guess.

But as you say, do there's other things that are going to help in the meantime?

No, I think it's worth mentioning that for those listening that aren't aware to what Chris was referring to.

A few months ago we spent a bit of time on the podcast praising Louise Hick and then the day after she promptly resigned.

So yes, we refrain from that now.

We provide criticism because they're the people want to resign, but we don't praise anymore.

But the other thing you mentioned when we spoke about this, Liz, was the government, not governments.

The DBSA seven Point Plan.

So I'm keen just to get your sort of brief thoughts on this, but for anyone that doesn't know, I'm going to recap this first.

So the DVSA seven point plan, number one, recruit and train 450 examiners.

Number two, remove and improve the review and improve the rules for booking driving tests.

Number three, introduce tougher terms and conditions for the service driving instructors use to book and manage car driving tests for their pupils.

Number four, consult on new proposals to increase the amount of time people have to wait to book another test in certain situations.

Number five, increase the amount of notice you need to give to change or cancel a car driving test without losing the fee.

Number six, explore changing the current 24 week limit on how far ahead car driving tests can be booked.

And number seven, encourage learner drivers to be better prepared for their driving test through the Ready to Pass campaign.

So I just wondered.

Yeah.

If you had any kind of thoughts on that.

Yeah, I mean, it was interesting to see that plan come out.

And I suppose what struck me in reading it is it was all very it's very procedural.

It's kind of how can we kind of make the best of the current situation that we're facing?

So lots of them seem quite sensible kind of proposals, but it's all kind of trying to gear or work around the fact that, you know, people are going for their tests too soon.

If we were able to spread people out a little bit more than by actually having minimum learning periods, then hopefully some of this would go away.

I mean, you will know a lot more about kind of the block booking and kind of how that works.

But there seems to be, you know, you know, legitimate people that want to pass, take their test and book a slot and can't get a slot and have to wait for nine months.

And obviously the system is just not working at the moment.

So, you know, I'm not close enough to it to know whether these particular seven points are really going to help.

They seem sensible and helpful given the framework that they're working in.

But I mean, to me it just strikes me as we need a whole overhaul of the system because it feels a bit more like a sticking plaster really, to the issue at the moment.

Yes, just.

Just yes.

I don't think we need to comment more than that.

Just yes to that.

Interestingly, they're going to touch on the NASP meeting with dbsa.

They released their bullet points.

Going to touch on that briefly and I'll answer some of those points.

But I want to take a moment to set the table.

So, Chris, if you're listening, do you want to take a moment, tell everyone who you are, what you do and where they can find you?

My name is Chris Benstead and I am the co founder of the ditc, which is a signposting platform for the driving instructor industry.

If you want to find me, go to the D I T C T H E D I T C CO uk get in touch.

That way, if you're looking for something and you don't know where to find it, I will probably tell you to get in touch with Terry and find the best podcast episode because he knows them all off the top of his head.

But I'll also try to help with other useful information.

And if you need theory support and help for your learners or for yourself, get in touch and I will try to help with that as well as Theory test explained.

The award winning Theory test explained.

The milking Theory test explained.

Yeah.

And Liz, do you want to take a moment to tell people who you are, where they can find you and what you do?

Yeah.

Great.

Thanks, Terry.

So I'M Liz Box.

I guess like a few people in this space, I have a number of different hats.

You sort of seem to drop some and then keep on collecting more.

So my main role is research director at the RAC foundation, which is an independent charity and we commission research into all aspects of transport policy.

So safety is a big part of it, but we also look at environment, mobility and economy issues to do with transport.

I was a transport planner by background, so that's kind of how I came to that.

I work a lot now in the safety space, particularly following doing my PhD in transport psychology at Cranfield University.

So that's kind of the main area that I work in.

I also work as a behavioural science consultant at Copilot, which is, I say, a startup.

We've been going for two years now.

I don't know how long you keep on saying startup for.

Terry is one of our lovely Vision Zero community members.

Essentially we are trying to provide the research backed evidence based educational approach to take to a whole host of road safety related issues.

So we have a toolbox of of tools that people can use, whether that's social media posts or campaigns to do on vehicle safety.

And we also started a Vision Zero community where we're trying to get as many people as possible that working in this space to come in, share knowledge of each other.

I run the research library there, so I update it with the latest research when it comes out, which is relevant to community members.

We run masterclasses as well with really interesting people across the whole space talking about their area of expertise.

And I do a lot of the kind of writing rounds the topics and I have to say I love it.

It's really great listening to people that really know a topic area really well.

And then probably the third thing is that I'm director of ECM Research Solutions, so I do consulting work in largely road safety research evaluation space.

I've done some work for Transport Scotland, I've done some work for National Highways.

I work quite a lot with Virgenesis.

So yeah, lots of bits and bobs there.

Definitely keeps me interested and busy, which.

I love, love Copilot and I will just say that obviously got excellent taste.

They recently featured me in their podcast collection.

So definitely a good taste there.

Yeah.

And you are listening to the Green Room.

This is the instructor podcast, green room number 48 I think.

So we're plowing along there, number 48.

And yeah, if you're enjoying listening and if you want more, you can head over to www.theinstructorpodcast.com over there you can find out how to work with me.

So that could be with a membership.

You get access to all the free stuff over there as well.

Or if you want to work with me one to one on any kind of training or coaching capacity, you can find out more over there.

That's www.theinstructorpodcast.com but I want to bring us back to this episode because I spent the some time this morning typing up my notes for the show diligently as I do, and then NASP released their notes from their meeting with the dbsa.

So I had to go and add these.

Now, I don't want to dive too much into these because we are obviously joined by the delightful and wonderful Dr.

Elizabeth Box.

We don't want to waste your time talking about NASP and the dvsa, but I do want to touch on some key points.

So what I'm going to do, I'm going to read through six key points I have taken from this and then I'll give you, Chris and Liz the opportunity to touch on anything they want.

So here we go.

The DVSA are already behind on their examiner growth target.

The DVSA has introduced a theory test into the examiner recruitment process designed to weed out those who are not up to standard.

The DVSA have been reviewing the end to end ADI qualification process to identify where improvements can be made to better help EDIs understand the skills needed to become an ADI.

The Part 1 theory test is about to undergo an accessibility refresh with updated content reflecting driver education requirements.

Publications such as the National Standards and ADI Code of Conduct will become theory test source material.

That's good.

And it is reported that the pass rate for part two currently sits at 52.9% and 29.7% for the part three.

And there have been 10,000 part three tests since April.

So I have said a lot of words there, Chris, but is there anything that stands out for you that you want to touch back on or.

And just to clarify, no is an acceptable answer.

You know when you said you had to go away and rewrite stuff because they released their notes, right?

So me putting all this theory stuff together and then they go and change what the content of Part one is, I.

Yeah, I know you.

I know.

I can feel your pain.

It's going to be interesting.

Not that I wasn't aware of all that stuff that should be included, but they're actually including, you know, or saying they're going to include things from areas that they should have anyway.

I know that Stuart and myself have been desperately waiting for a PDI to come out of the woodwork to say there was a GDE question, because we're told it might be in the part one, but no one seems to have got the question yet.

And the answer I need switch out.

AGD question one might be in the part one.

We've had it raised that there was one.

APDI said I wasn't expecting GDE to be in there.

And I asked and got told, well, if it's in the book, it can be in the test, which isn't exactly helpful.

So we've now got a wider range of materials that people are not going to read that they're going to be asked questions about.

Yes, I'm looking forward to this year, but it's fine.

It's moving.

It is moving in the right direction.

It's just we need to keep up, that's the key.

And I'm hoping that these changes will introduce better resources and better resource availability.

As someone who consults for Safe Driving for Life, I don't know, but it took me 18 months to find out that you can actually listen to their digital resources as an audio version via Kindle.

So I've been asking for them for 18 months before they told me that I could do it already.

So we'll see.

I'm holding my breath slightly.

They sound like positive changes, which always unnerves me slightly.

So, yeah, you know, I've learned not to shoot them down yet.

I'm waiting for the poor communication to happen first.

Within National Standards in particular.

I do find that quite encouraging, even just from the perspective of how many times we've come across PDIs and ADIs that have never come across National Standards because they've not been presented.

I would like to think that if they're being put in the Part one and then are communicated, that all trainers will start providing the National Standards or making them reading material.

So even if that's the only good to come from it, I think that's a positive.

Liz, is there anything you want to touch on from them?

Anything that stands out?

Again, no is an acceptable answer.

Yeah, I think this is more your area, than mine, so.

Yeah, interesting to hear, but I'll go with your assessments on it.

Well, I'll just say I'm amused that test waiting times are worse than 20, 24 levels and they're already behind on their exam and their Growth side.

Either way, let's move on to a topic that is more your area and that's, I want to start off with this question, this quite specific question.

Why do so many people crash within 12 months after passing a driving test?

Yeah, it's a, interesting question.

It's sad that it's the case, but this is when we need to kind of look broader than the UK really, because this happens all over the world.

We are not unique.

And guess what?

Young people are young people all around the world.

So it shows us that it's a real kind of biological kind of process that we're, we're trying to work with here and that we need to understand that and, and recognize that, you know, you can't talk people out of being the way they're going to be in a certain situation.

So why do we have the high risk?

So the usual answer is age is a product.

It's a product of age because, and as I said, we were focusing on 17 to 19 year olds because they are most at risk.

I mean all, all of your listeners will know the brain's not, you know, fully developed until age 25.

The fact is that you don't have your prefrontal cortex online as easily in those kind of risk promoting situations.

Young people are much more kind of dopamine driven.

So you might be able to sit down, maybe even in your lessons and talk to somebody about, well, how would you plan to deal with this particular scenario?

And they'll come up with great plans, maybe better plans than we would have, but that's like a cool neutral environment.

But when they get into those, those hot environments where they're with their, their friends, the kind of, the risk reward ratio is just kind of off.

So that's kind of why we see risk occurring with age.

And then obviously it's, it's experience.

You know, once you get out on the road you're, you're trained to drive a vehicle.

And we know that young people pick up physical skills really quickly.

Like, you know, if you want to compare yourself to anybody learning a physical skill, your person is going to get it much quicker than we are.

But we know it's obviously safe.

Driving is about much more than that and it's particularly about hazard perception, awareness, how you manage risk.

And although that's sort of dealt with at the higher levels of the GDE matrix, it doesn't typically feature.

Well, it doesn't feature in the test at all.

And it will depend on your instructor whether you get any of that.

And then there is that kind of learning process when you don't have the coach in the car next to you.

So yeah, age and experience are the big key factors and then we know that that results in young people being more likely to exhibit risk taking behavior.

They're also more likely to be impaired by alcohol.

So this is why in other countries you might see that there's a lower alcohol limit and that's just a physiological response to alcohol at a younger age and not being as experienced with it.

So yeah, it's kind of the perfect storm really, isn't it, to kind of why it happens.

So we know why it happens.

We know the things that we can do to kind of provide that more protective, structured environment.

But yet they just don't seem to be certainly politically palatable when you look at opinion surveys.

Yeah, I mean young people themselves, I mean they're not going to vote for having their freedoms restricted if it's presented like that, who would?

Especially people that are starting out in life wanting to become independent, but actually quite a larger proportion than you think do support it.

So we need some changes essentially to how we're doing things and we don't need much more research in this area really.

I mean the only place we probably could do with more research is particularly around the educational work because we don't have or haven't had really good evaluation mechanisms for kind of understanding.

Well, does that actually have the effect?

Because it's quite difficult to measure.

You know, ideally you want to see what impact it had on behavior, but then you've got to measure it by telematics or something, which is expensive, it takes a long time.

So yeah, that's the area that we could get a little bit more information on.

But yeah, we know the reasons and we know the solutions.

We just got to somehow get them in place.

Well, I'm just keen to ask you kind of specifically around the idea of having passengers in the car as well, because you mentioned about GDL before and about that obviously one of the restrictions you want for those first six months, no periods, passengers, what is the danger for a Young, an 18 year old lad, for example, of having friends in their car?

What is the danger there?

Yes.

So as I was describing, it's those hot emotional environments.

So they are going to be hijacked by wanting to seek that immediate reward.

And often at that age it's going to be wanting to take or being encouraged to take risk taking behaviors.

So speeding, showing off, overconfidence, you know, taking, using mobile phones, the whole lot.

So we just know that, that's, I think if you have, every time you add a passenger into the vehicle, you're at that age, the likelihood of the collision is so much, so much higher.

So it's, as I say, it's, it's to do with that social engagement and the reward that they're getting from that social experience.

And, you know, even people that have might say in advance, I wouldn't be like that, have the potential to be like that.

And I think that's sometimes where we get the challenges, particularly say from parents.

Parents might say, oh, my kid's a really good kid.

And they, they probably are a really good kid, but they are totally susceptible to this.

Maybe not that they're not going to be on the higher, higher end of risk taking, but they are definitely susceptible because they don't have that experience at that stage.

And then you mix that in with the greater potential to take risks and it really leads to issues.

So some of the preventative work is all about trying to talk about those scenarios in advance and trying to almost what's called, develop those if then plans.

So if this happens, then I'll do this because then you've got something in your memory system, something that you've committed to at another moment in time when you're not being affected by that immediate environment that kind of links through to your values systems a lot more than what you might do in the moment and something you can anchor to.

So I think that's some of the things we could potentially do as we're instructing young people, is to think through what are their if then plans, what are their escape routes, when things might get a bit out of hand or they might feel unsafe even as passengers, not necessarily as drivers.

I think instructors, and this is just the feedback I get from ADIs and PDIs is that they often find it difficult to have those conversations.

It feels like they're shoe and honing it in.

It feels sometimes like students have come to them to learn to drive, not to have the conversations.

And one of the things I'll often recommend, and I'm genuinely keen for your thoughts on this, it's the honest truth, and I'm sure you're aware of the honest truth that Ollie Taylor runs.

There's sections in there about showing off and distracted driving and that kind of stuff which ties into the thing we've just been speaking about.

Would you recommend the instructors use that honest truth as an entry point almost for those conversations?

Yeah, I mean, I think sometimes it's helpful, as you say, to have A different primer for that discussion that's not immediate at you because as you say, it might not be.

It might feel a bit forced.

You know, when you're out driving, you might have particularly hazard perception issues that you can quite easily weave into the discussion because it's all going on outside.

But those sort of social impacts are not things that you're really going to engage with unless you happen to see somebody on the road that's doing something that's you wouldn't necessarily recommend.

So, yeah, I mean, I think having those initial prompts, if you like, is a really good way of kind of engaging with it.

And, yeah, worthwhile looking at the driving.

Test does passing the driving test, mate, you're a good driver that's going to drive safe for rest of your life.

Clearly does, because that's what, you know, so many folks.

I think it's interesting that you say that instructors are concerned about the fact that people are coming to them to learn to drive and not for the other staff.

And I think it goes further than that.

There's a large percentage of instructors, and they're probably not the ones listening that think that the pupils are coming to them to pass the test.

It's not even to learn to drive because actually we tend to have driving as a higher standard than the test because it's got more to it.

So they feel that if they're not, if the wheels aren't moving, if they're having a conversation that isn't on the DL25 and recorded on the driving test, that somehow they'll lose that business, they'll move to another instructor.

And it's not.

It's the other way around.

It's.

If you have that conversation, they will stay with you and you will stand out and you'll get better referrals and you'll be able to charge more money and all of those things, whatever your.

Your reasons for doing the job are, you will tick those boxes as well as making the world a better place and the road safer.

But trying to get people to really buy into that.

They may well believe it themselves.

They may well understand, you know, everything that Liz has said about those, the factors that make them high risk.

The instructor gets that.

But that's not why they've come to me.

It's.

It's that approach.

And I think that's too often the issue.

And I think, you know, the one for me, that would be a really interesting partner that I think is missing because I love the fact.

And thank you for embracing the lovely Terry and his engagement with road safety because I think it is bridging a gap that has been there between driving instructing and road safety.

I've never really understood and we all still use the language of, you know, I work in the road safety sector or, you know, it's these different spaces that are actually in the same space but they're so divided, you know, but in the same way of, you know, English and American.

It's, it's a really big division that I'm, I'd like to see insurance companies coming in more and, and getting involved because they should be involved in road safety because that reduces their cost.

There seems to be some strange thing that I don't understand that they don't, they're not, they're not quite as bothered.

I did some work with Highways England as well and it was on, if anyone wants to check it out, the Driving Hub website about high speed roads and motorways.

And it was, the plan was for insurance companies to be involved with data that, using the on phone black box, that it would show areas where potential collisions were going to happen because people were coming in too fast, but they hadn't happened yet.

And surely that's really useful stuff.

We can't predict the future very well.

That would be a useful tool.

And it just fell apart.

There didn't seem to be the commercial engagement, but actually by getting data like that you can identify junctions that are higher risk and allocate the resources to them.

And I, yeah, I just feel that say insurance companies are potentially a missing link some somehow.

But it's nice to see that we are all moving in that right direction and that there are things and we've seen it in a way that people might understand more inside of the industry with cpd, the, you know, there's trying to get access to training.

Understanding was really difficult to begin with and you got what you were offered.

You know, it was whatever was put on the plate in front of you was what you had and that was it.

And now it's too much.

And I've got people phoning me up every week saying, help.

I want to make myself better.

I haven't got a clue where to start.

And that's great.

I love that fact.

I think we now need to move on and improve it.

And the fact that's now opening up to say, the road safety space and say hopefully others inside of the same arena, that's great.

I want to touch back on what you said about instructors a little bit actually, and them not following up on it, not Just the students because with two points.

So firstly you said about the ones not the ones that are interested are already listening.

I love all my listeners, obviously, but one of the favorite things for me is when someone will reach out and say listening to an episode has changed their perspective.

A lot of it come down to the episode with Sharon Huddleston.

If you haven't listened, go back and check.

She lost a dog, you know, horrifically in a crash.

And it's the.

It.

It changes them and they're listening.

It just switches their perspective.

But I'm interested if you've seen this, Chris, whether it's just something I happen to have seen more than ever for a long time.

I'm seeing instructors say that they, they must be good at the job because they've got a good test pass rate.

And I haven't seen that crop up for a long time.

But I don't know whether it's just in my sort of network, if you like.

Is that something you're seeing more?

I don't think it ever went anywhere.

I think sometimes our focus changes and it depends what we're doing and what we're exposed to and we don't necessarily see what we don't see because yeah, that.

That's always been the case.

Learner drivers.

Well, I'm making one of these bold statements with someone who knows what they're talking about in the room.

I'm not used to that.

Terry, help.

So learner.

Sorry, Stuart, My, my apologies.

I forgot you were here.

So learner drivers will learn in spite of their instructor.

They.

There's arguments to say that instructors don't necessarily make a difference to the process.

The statistics with school of mum and dad are not nearly as weak as we would like them to be.

To support the commercial side of things.

We have a qualification in not crashing because that's really what the part three is about.

Have we delivered some kind of educational structure and not allowed them to crash the car?

And too often that's the bit that remains is not crashing.

So are you keeping them safe long enough that they can figure it out?

And in a way that's what.

What GDL does.

I stand to be corrected.

Liz, please jump on me if that's the case.

But I it GDL keeps them safer for longer so they can figure it out.

It's essentially what we're doing.

We're.

We're letting them take measured risks, you know, that rather than, than being given full freedom.

So I think, you know, so often people will come back and where I deal with it is with the standards check.

And, and they're saying, you know, well, I failed my standards check, but I must be all right because I've got a high pass rate.

Oh, no, because you're not meant, you're not comparing like for like as much as anything that the standards check is measuring the educational structure of the lesson and it's just the lesson.

Does that mean you're a good instructor?

Yes, if that lesson is representative, but no, if it isn't.

And the not crashing bit, you know, it kind of keeps you in business.

It gets expensive if it goes wrong.

But the rest of it, the pass rate is a separate thing altogether.

It's not indicative of good training.

It's indicative of you've kept them alive long enough for them to figure it out for themselves.

And hopefully good instructors are an asset and a benefit and we are able to bring more to the table that might be achieving it quicker.

It's not the focus I like to have, hopefully it's achieving a better ability to reflect because really that's where we improve the safety of them because we've given them those opportunities, we've given them the understanding so that they can recognize when it nearly went wrong.

You know, I'm a big fan of the Swiss cheese model because for little brains like mine, I can understand it where, you know, the more layers of mitigation we've put in place, the less chance there is of something going wrong.

And if anybody, except for Liz would like to read it, because I'd be very concerned about the feedback.

There's an article on the DITC website that I wrote about using dog training techniques to teach teenage, particularly teenage boys how to recognize when the adrenaline kicks in or when the risk taking becomes too much.

And to put in a kind of a artificial off switch which openly, when you read it, is stolen from a dog trainer in America who I nearly went to work with for a while.

It was just wrong place, wrong time.

So Stuart said, just said the Inner Game of Dogs.

It's not the Inner Game of Dogs, but I'm sure it's probably got some catchy title because I love a catchy title.

I should have worked for the Sun.

But yeah, say it's.

There's techniques that we can use, there's approaches we can take that do more, and if we can improve that reflection.

That should be what it's about.

But to answer the question, yes, people are still focusing on pass rate, including the dvsa.

Annoyingly, I feel like sometimes you get in trouble for some of the things you say.

So I feel like I need to mention that you're not advocating put a collar and lead on your students?

No.

You know those electric collars?

Yes.

No.

You're not advocating using them?

Just to clarify, I don't use those.

No.

It is about allowing them to get to the point where potentially they start to take a risk and then stopping them and saying what we going to do here?

And it's essentially based on that.

And it was.

I like looking outside the industry because there's so many parallels to.

Because human beings are human beings, you know, it doesn't matter where they are, they all effectively behave the same way.

We like thinking we're all different.

We're not, you know, different people respond to different things, but it's looking at those things.

And then I realized dogs aren't that different either.

Juvenile dogs have the same issues that juvenile humans get.

So yeah, it was quite an interesting exercise.

Feedback not needed because I'm very precious about that one.

Liz, you were kind of nodding along to a lot of what Chris said.

There is anything you want to touch on or you specifically stood out to you?

I was nodding along to some of it, certainly.

I'll say some of it.

I mean, I was just thinking and reflecting on the fact really the issue I think that we have here is that the driving test is all about ensuring that you have a basic, that you can control the car safely, you can follow the rules and you can navigate these kind of common road situations that you see.

So we're talking about a minimum standard that people have to pass.

But then when we're thinking about, you know, what do people need post test or what does safety look like?

It looks like managing risk, it looks like developing resilience so you can manage those environments that you come across.

And it's about making independent decisions which you don't do a lot of when you're learning to drive either, particularly in those sort of real world scenarios.

So there's no instructor safety net left, is there?

That.

That's kind of.

So we're training them for one thing.

But actually what you need post test to stay safe is very different.

And I think you're right, Chris.

The idea of GDL is to sort of layer in and gradually kind of provides that safety net really to kind of as you develop that skill set over time.

And it does take time.

And it's weird, isn't it, because when we think about other areas of practice and I guess even with instructor training, you don't just take your test and then you can off you go and teach.

You've got the various parts that you do teacher training.

You then have a newly qualified teacher training year where you get extra support and it's recognized that you're not fully complete at that point that you've trained.

But you also need real world experience.

Pretty much anything you can think of.

You go into a trainee role.

You don't suddenly have everything.

So driving, I think is really unusual that, that we do have that.

And probably just to finish on a, on a animal related note, given that you mentioned dogs, Chris, there, there was a really interesting study done and I don't know if you've heard of it before that on mice or for obviously experimenting on animals, but it has happened a lot over time.

But essentially they found that adolescent rats, I think it was, were much more likely to drink the alcohol that had been left in their pens if they were alongside their peers.

When they're on their own, they weren't as interested in the alcohol that was left.

So maybe we're, you know, there's something to be said for, we need to look across species.

We shouldn't be surprised since, you know, certainly the way humans behave and you're right, there are, there is commonalities obviously, particularly in the young driver space.

We know that there's a huge, much greater risk for young males.

And one of the reasons for that is that when you kind of look at personality characteristics for males over females, and this is at any age actually, but women are much more similar to each other.

So if you were looking at a bell curve, they're much more likely to have similar characteristics whereas males are much more spread out.

So you're going to have the kind of risk taking ends and very diverse perspectives.

So that's kind of one of the reasons why you see that gender difference because you've got more outliers within males that are taking more risks as well.

So that's kind of, I think, important to bear in mind.

I think I've just realized this is the first time ever the instructor podcast where vegans have outnumbered the number of non vegans on an episode.

So I think I'll take that as a win from today's episode.

But just curious, Liz, are you aware of the Milestones project?

Yes, the DIA project that's happening.

I'm hoping to talk to Carly Brookfield about that soon for the podcast.

But I think that sits beautifully in with gdl because even with that Milestones project, when you pass your driving test, you're and then go out by yourself for the first time, you will still have never driven alone for that first time.

And I can still remember the time it clicked for me when I passed my test and I drove my car for the first time and I drove it back from the garage by myself and about five minutes in traffic went, oh crap, it's just me.

I don't know how to do this bit.

And all of a sudden that panic sets in.

And there's that phrase that I know we spoke about before, Chris, which is you learn to drive when you passed your test.

So I'm sure you've heard that before.

Is that part of the problem sort of almost with the public perception sometimes in that because 20 years ago people learned to drive when they passed a test, they're kind of passing that onto the kids now.

Yeah, it's a really common phrase, isn't it?

I think that's still used today.

And the other phrase that I hear a lot is it's not you, it's other people on the road.

Which in part I think, yes, it's important for you to recognize that people can do anything at any moment and you need to be prepared for the unexpected.

But it takes away that personal responsibility as well.

Just saying, well, I'm great driver.

Well, whenever you do a survey and say how good a driver are you?

Everybody says they're above average.

Well, where are these below average drivers?

Because nobody's admitting to being one.

So yeah, I think those things or they can be harmful, can't they?

Because it makes you think, oh, well, I've just got to get through this test and then I will learn with experience.

I mean, learning with experience is really costly, isn't it?

And certainly in the worst case scenario, it can be absolutely devastating.

But even if you have small prangs, it's going to cost you money.

It will increase your insurance.

You know, it will get you off the road for a period of time.

You might have some small injuries.

That's not the way that we really should be expecting young people to learn is through that experience.

And I think one of the messages that certainly many people in this sector are trying to get across now is don't buy a young person an old banger.

I mean, again, that's been another one of I'll just buy you an old banger because you're going to have a crash and therefore it's going to be too expensive to replace.

Well, no, because they're going to have a crash that we need to try and get them in as five star vehicles as possible to give a greater potential for them to walk away from that incident that they have.

So yeah, I guess there's a lot of of those old tropes I guess that we need to have a look at how can we change those social norms around kind of what we should expect.

Yeah, it's hard to do.

So I was going to say is one of those changes that we could make something I've tried previously to embrace the fact that you learned to drive after you pass your test and to then say, so why are you taking the driving instructor away at that point and actually try and you know, join.

Join those dots again loosely gdl.

It's that kind of, you know, keep us in the loop in some way.

So you're not fully taking away that support net.

Yeah, I'm really glad you've asked that Chris, because actually one of the things I meant to mention in news was I don't know if it really fitted within that, but there's new research out actually just on this topic.

So I'll just kind of go through some of the findings from that because I think that that answers some of these questions.

So we already mentioned, I think Professor David Cundall earlier on, but he's published a new study that was looking at post licensure driver training and kind of young people's perceptions of it and what they're interested in doing.

And it studied just over 700 young people.

So between the ages of 17 and 25.

And what it found was there was a real low immediate willingness to participate.

So less than a third were willing to do any post licensure training immediately after passing their test.

I think maybe the feeling of I've already done all this, why do I need to do any more?

What was quite interesting was that they found there was more interest in doing training if people were thinking about the past or the future.

So they weren't thinking about now, but actually maybe in the future.

The immediate motivation wasn't there, but past and future maybe.

And what they said were the barriers to participation were things like they'd rather do something else with their time.

You know, they've probably committed quite a lot of time to learning.

So probably not at that stage a lack of perceived need that they didn't think it was necessary.

There was also skepticism about free courses so people thinking, are there hidden catches in this that I don't know about?

And also credibility concerns about, you know, who was, who was the training provider, what was their reputation, that sorts of things.

What they found was some motivators for participation was, well, actually they said the strongest one was the reputation of the training provider.

So I think that's an interesting question as well.

Also understanding why it's free, if it is free, and that increased the trust about whether it was valuable or not.

They said that certificates of participation were reasonably appealing and prizes were less effective because there's a lot of am I actually going to win a prize at the end of it?

So when they were kind of asked about what do you want to learn about post test?

They said they wanted the top priorities were about driving in hazardous weather, so snow, ice and fog.

So things that they thought they were going to experience in the real world.

And interestingly this one, learning about new vehicle technologies.

So EVs and ADAS.

So the technologies that they're going to experience in the cars going forwards.

And I think that's probably of interest to quite a lot of the driving population and might be a sort of hook to get people back into training, probably.

Well, you wouldn't be surprised to say that they weren't so interested in speed management, even though we know that's really important for crash risk.

And hazard perception wasn't considered as important either.

And I don't know if that's because they obviously do some hazard perception training, don't they, as part of the test.

So I think there was some kind of really useful, key practical takeaways from that report.

So the idea of marketing post chest training as becoming a better driver, not about becoming a safer driver, safe is, you know, we talk about it, as you say in road safety, but to the rest of the world out there, they just want to be better, they want to be above average drivers.

That's what they say they are, they want to, they want to stay there.

And also young drivers don't perceive themselves as unsafe.

That's also what they found.

I've trained, I've got a qualification, I can do this.

So it's really about positioning training as an opportunity to enhance those skills rather than as a safety intervention.

So I think that's quite useful input in terms of boosting credibility and transparency.

Well known brands and partnerships will seem to be important and also clearly explaining if it's free training, why it's free, otherwise that's skepticism and kind of framing it around future benefits that sort of past future benefit elements.

So, you know, preparing for winter driving, gaining advanced driving for career opportunities, all of that side of things.

So, you know, marketing it as an opportunity, aligning it with their interests around hazardous weather conditions, good providers and thinking about the future.

So I think that was a really useful, practical piece of research there.

And Terry, I'll send you the details afterwards.

I think it's an open journal article so people can access it.

But yeah, very rarely do you come across something that has some real good takeaways, I think for the sector and the industry.

And I mean, Professor Crundle is very good at doing that sort of in between research and practice and the translation work.

But yeah.

Worth having a look at.

No, really interesting.

And I think my prediction is that ADAS is going to be coming into the theory, so possibly something for instructors to be looking at which can be passed on.

So if there's that, you know, that, that link there, that new knowledge coming in.

Because I think probably especially where instructors keep cars for, you know, a length of time, the technology is, you know, is outperforming us.

We're not necessarily keeping up and we only know our car in a lot of cases.

So I think those kind of opportunities are a really good way to get new skills that you can show There is more because too often it's, you get to the point because just the way the process works where I can't teach you anymore.

We need you to take your driving test.

Well, of course you can.

There's lots of things you can teach.

But what they need is a bit of time in there as well.

So we end up capping ourselves.

So I'm wondering if there is a model where we have not learner driver driving schools.

So we, we almost, they, they, they, they upgrade, they graduate from the learner school, which could be the same, same driving school, you take the L plates off and put P plates on or you know, I hate P plates anyway, you know, that, that approach, you're kind of going, and now, now we're going to have some advanced school lessons which might mean that as an industry we need to improve, embrace the likes of Rossboro and IIM more than we possibly do.

Because there's some, you know, historic bad blood there.

Maybe there's an opportunity moving forward to, to, to try and show an advanced.

I've never really understood what that word advanced means.

But the next level of, of training in there to embrace that future perspective of, you know, of better driving, which I love as better driver training, my driving school.

But you Know that better driving approach and moving them towards better not be not being racing driver, you know, because that's almost the next level up, isn't it?

Is if you're going to go to there.

Well then we'll start looking at speed or decision making not, not the things that we would like them to focus on.

So I think that's quite an interesting concept of maybe we need a, you know, an evolution approach.

Because if they're looking at future and that's of interest and they're looking at what haven't I done yet, more of that might be a good thing.

Yeah, definitely.

And I think the other point to raise certainly from the research side is you always have to be really careful of increasing people's confidence in their physical skills, particularly in those environments that they don't experience very often.

So you've probably come across the really famous Swedish skid pan essentials study that was done and the two groups, the one group that went through and did the skid training and then they went away for a week and the other group did a, essentially a discussion based group but sort of talking about actually aren't our skills a bit unreliable?

Sometimes we're feeling a bit tired, sometimes we're not as sharp as we were so we shouldn't really expect that we can always react in the same way every moment.

So we have to expect the unexpected and know that we're not always going to be able to, to manage as well as we might be on our best day.

And essentially they looked at them, I think a week later and tested them on their ability to manage a skid.

And the ones that had been taught how to manage a skid couldn't manage it any better than the group that hadn't even been taught how to manage the skid.

But you can be sure that the group that went away thinking brilliant, I can manage a skid now, were they increasing their speed?

Were they taking more risk because they thought that they could cope with it?

I've been trained so I think it's a really find balance that we need to strike and I guess the root to that is just making sure we evaluate what we do.

If we can check that it is doing what we hope it is brilliant, then we can roll it out and we can, you can, you know, promote it.

But unless we know it's sometimes it's a bit counterintuitive.

So yeah, I just that that slight caveat I guess on the post test training element.

Fully support, you both said small, less support.

But I want to Just touch on two aspects.

So you mentioned the Iam, Chris and Rossborough in that aspect.

It's interesting because the IAM is something I've suggested to my students and there's been a handful that have gone and went on to that rather than come back to me and I'm happy for that.

Just to clarify but that seems to be quite appealing.

So it's interesting that you say that the quality of the training provider but also I think you mentioned you faced it as a rather be doing something else for their time and I find that interesting because I wonder how much of that comes down to how much they enjoyed their lessons and I don't mean did they enjoy driving but did they enjoy the actual lesson?

Because I always find the more rapport or the better rapport I have with a student the more likely they are to, to do more ways or to come back for, for post trust post test stuff.

So yeah it's, it's interesting but I want to touch back a little bit because me and, and you and I Liz we spoke a couple of times last year about and this was purely my idea and the reason it's not been done is purely my fault but potentially looking at creating some kind of dream scenario list of what instructors could be teaching before a test, you know, in the ideal world.

So I'm just wondering if there's a couple of things you'd like to throw out there that you would look like to see instructors do and I'm sure some do already that you would like to see instructors do before a test that is above that kind of basic skill level.

Yeah, I mean absolutely.

I think it comes back to what I was saying about you know, post test safety is all about managing risk, developing that resilience and kind of making independent decisions.

So I guess what we need to do is kind of look back to well what can we do to support that post test?

I mean I guess I'm sure you guys are doing a huge amount of this already but you just can't do enough situational awareness and hazard perception work.

You know how to spot risks early and test upper road users behaviours because we all build up over our experience that sort of bank of knowledge and we know that young drivers, they just, it takes them a little while to build that up.

There's some research has shown that young drivers have find it harder to work out what's called latent hazards.

So if there's a delivery truck that we see as experienced drivers we're much more likely to go well actually the bloke might be out the back or he might pop around because he wants to get in the driver's seat.

If they can't see the hazard, they're much less likely to recognise it's there.

Or if you have to merge to move around a stationary vehicle, they're not looking as far ahead to kind of pick that up.

So how we can improve them?

Not doing that tunnel vision, but kind of scanning, spreading that scan as much as possible and picking those things up.

Important to say that things like commentary driving, which I know is used in lots of professions, there's a bit of an issue has been identified in the research in that, particularly for young drivers who are getting the procedural skills, it might be negative to start doing commentary driving because they're still thinking about everything else and it could be a bit overload.

So that's really.

We're talking about advanced.

I think that's much more of an advanced technique than what we want to do with learners, decision making and kind of managing risks.

You know, I guess it comes down to that old adage of just because you can, should you?

So the kind of question of not asking people to think, well, rather than asking, can I do this, should you do it and how should you manage that?

And I think it comes back to, as I say, those thinking through those real world scenarios of what's most likely to happen for them and it will be different people, they might have a friend that they know is going to be particularly annoying, wanting to change the music whilst they're driving or whatever, so they will know what things they're likely to experience and you can kind of talk through what that if this happens, then this is what I can do.

And obviously for young people it's a lot about, you know, saving face.

Social capital is everything for that group and they don't want to do anything to affect that.

So it's how we can help save face in those scenarios and thinking through it in advance.

So you've got a little bit something to fall back on and yeah, I guess dealing with that peer pressure and distractions, you know, and actually how peers in vehicles can increase risk taking as well, that's particularly important.

There was another study that came out reasonably recently that was looking at impaired driving and wondering to what extent young driver, young people would ride with an impaired driver or drive whilst impaired.

And it was a really longitudinal study, kind of looking at quite a large sample across a long period of time.

And it found that there was sort of four distinct patterns of behaviour.

So people that Would abstain.

So they consistently.

They wouldn't drink and drive, they wouldn't ride with somebody that drink and drive.

Great.

That's maintain that escalators, those that increase their involvement over time.

So they might initially be concerned and then they might as they develop their experience increase that decliners.

They kind of started off high and then they might have had an incident and it reduces them low again and then those that are persistently high.

So one of the things that that study found that there was misperceptions about impairments in particular.

So young drivers overestimated their ability to self assess impairments rather than think looking for particular signs they could work, they thought they could work out is my friend impaired or not?

And kind of relying on friend trust.

And actually there's other things that they need to be looking out for to kind of make that decision rather than just trusting friends.

And you know, when they said that they wouldn't do it, it was a mixed effect on what effect parents had.

We know if parents drink drive, young people are much more likely to drink drive because it's in their social environment.

But also if there was disapproval then they were less likely to do it.

Or actually if there was a kind of a curfew, you've got to get home by this time, it might actually promote them to drink drive because they've got to get home and actually that's the only way they can do it because there's not other public transport available.

So there's kind of things that we know about what might help those particular groups.

And it's just trying to work out what's relevant to those.

So I would say that's particularly important.

Chris, I am very keen for you to share your delivery driver lesson and I'm KEEN to hear Dr.

Box's thoughts on your delivery driver lesson.

Cause this is what I'm particularly fond of.

So any delivery driving company that you choose, because I got in trouble the other day for picking on one particular.

Because I found out I was talking to one of their drivers.

So giving the pupil a list.

I've actually evolved this.

I'm interested in Terry's thoughts on my evolution.

You give them a list of a few addresses and they have to drive down the road and find that house.

So it's managing the risk of the control.

We know how bad it is to find an address or a number on a house nowadays.

And then they have to park somewhere that is safe.

But also then introducing the pressures of the job that they need to park somewhere that's near there so they can then understand why others might make that same kind of, you know, of choice.

Because I always think if you can understand someone else's action, you're less likely to suffer the road rage or, you know, whatever it might be.

I just assume everyone needs a way.

That's my approach because we've all been there and, you know, it seems to.

Seems to work as a generic approach.

My new addition to the lesson is getting postcards printed for your driving school.

And they have to provide, as I've got a GDPR concern, but who cares a bit about gdpr?

They need to provide their friend's name and address.

So we then write the postcard that's got your driving school on the back of it, and you go to their friend's house who isn't driving yet.

That's the, the, you know, the stipulation.

And you put the.

They.

They go and post the postcard through the friend's door saying, I'm just on an awesome driving lesson.

You should consider learning to drive with these people.

So I, I've upped the game, but all right, we'll focus on the, on the, the road safety angle on it instead.

Well, that, that's really action learning in action.

What you're doing there.

A full simulation in the real world.

Interesting idea.

I like the fact that you're getting your marketing done at the same time as well.

I feel I need to make the point that Chris's views on GDPR are not representative of the instructor podcast.

Just to clarify.

But we are also now joined by the chair of the ADI NJC and the founder of Bright Coaching, the one and only the Scottish Han Solo, Mr.

Stuart Lockery.

How are we doing, Stuart?

Very well.

It's all going well until Chris started talking about postcard, wasn't it?

That was.

That was a bit.

A bit strange.

That was great, guys.

Really enjoyed that.

Obviously far too much GDL for my liking.

I'm famously not, not a fan of the.

The LIZ affiliate.

Explain.

Terry believes that I'm.

I'm very cynical about gdl and I'm not cynical about GDL because I got the NGC to sign up and support the Pacts manifesto.

I'm wary of the culture war around GDL and the potential it has to distract us from the fact that driver instructors should all be doing better jobs than we currently do at the moment.

That was.

I've just made that argument far more succinctly than I did on the Christmas special.

Terry.

They agree with that argument.

I didn't agree with the one you had previously.

I've had two months to kind of polish it a little bit.

I wanted to pick up on the PACT road safety manifesto.

Obviously you made the point that they've kind of knocked back the GDL aspect was.

And Terry, you came on and said you followed that up with it's 25% of that proposed manifesto.

I guess if I wanted to deflect away from gdl, the one that doesn't get talked about very much is the actual road safety.

I forgot what it's called now.

What's point number one?

The road safety strategy, the national road strategy.

And I wonder if there's an opportunity for us through PACTS and David Crundle, who is the chair of the Behavior.

Behavior Working Party.

It's not easy to.

Yeah, sorry, I've had too much coffee during the day and not enough in the last hour.

So apologies.

I wonder if there's an opportunity for us.

And by us, I mean the ngc.

But you know, if you want to come on board with us, that would be fantastic to.

To get something into that.

And that to me is an issue that's been an issue in my head for a couple of years now, which is why, another reason why I wanted to join pax.

You have far more experience with this kind of thing than I do, Liz, or any of us, all of us put together.

Do you know anything about that side of things?

Yeah.

So the road safety strategy, I mean, I think first to say about the PACS list, I mean, I think we talked about the DVSA list earlier and that point one had already been done.

So I think sometimes it's easy to kind of write a list of really easy things that you can go, oh yeah, it's brilliant.

They've done it already.

So I think, I guess, good on pats.

We're giving some of those things on the list that, you know, take years and decades sometimes to bring on board and they're not going to be immediate wins that they can go to their board and say, look, we said this and now it's happened.

So yeah, there's a mix of things on there.

As you say, the road safety strategy is something that should be more immediate.

As we know the previous Secretary of State before she Left said that they did want to put one in place.

I think Lillian Greenwood is still strongly saying that they are going to have a road safety strategy.

I mean, it would be nice, wouldn't it, if there was some period of consultation that would be a great time for all different parts of the sector to provide evidence and suggestions.

But, I mean, it's all gone very quiet, hasn't it?

It certainly has.

Well, seems to be, from my perspective, in terms of what's happening there.

We certainly hear from officials that, you know, we just need to have a little bit of time for the new Secretary of State to started at the beginning of January to get their feet onto the table to work out what they want to do.

So, yeah, I'm afraid I don't have any more insights on kind of what's happening there because as you say, the more people you can get to input into this, you've been working on various different elements of the road safety system for years and years with a huge amount of knowledge, experience and bringing together all of the relevant actors that can actually deliver some of this.

It will be a better strategy as a result of it.

So, I mean, I really hope there will be an opportunity for some sort of consultation that whatever is present, presented isn't a.

Well, this is what we're doing.

Because as you say, the risk then is some really important issue hasn't been covered or it's been misinterpreted because, you know, we're.

It's hard in.

In the road environment, space, isn't it?

If you work in rail or aviation or any of your marine.

The number of bodies and people involved are so much smaller.

Whereas, you know, we've got lots of individuals out there doing their own thing, we've got lots of bodies and organizations involved and trying to pull that together into something coherent is a challenge, but you can't.

No one person can do it, no one body can do it.

So, yeah, we'll have to wait and see.

I think.

I think just to add on to that, one of the additional concerns is if it did come down to a body who was in charge of running that kind of thing, it would be the dvsa.

So the worst case scenario would actually be if they came out tomorrow and said, we're going to overhaul the EDI qualification process.

We've had a think last week and, you know, you guys are probably right, it does need change.

So we've done it.

And that.

That would be.

That would be horrific for.

For many, many reasons.

So, yeah, a consultation would be would be nice, but the, the kind of bigger picture that I'm mainly concerned about and with my NGC hat on is getting into these rooms in Caliber Field.

The DIA is very good at this, so hopefully I'll be nagging her a little bit about that.

I was typing a message in because I thought I was going to have to go, but I've been given a reprieve that a lot of things that you, that you guys have spoken about tonight.

There's a thread running through it that I see and maybe, obviously I'm biased, but that we need better driving instructors.

We need driving instructors with a higher skill set.

Liz, you see this all the time.

I spoke to Terry about it.

You always kind of refer to driving instructors with their coaching skills as if we're all out there coaching left, right and center.

And I'm like, I'm sorry to say it, but we're not.

I would like that to be the case.

I would like us to have a more knowledge.

I would like, I would like bright coaching to be redundant and nobody needed to do bright coaching because they did it out of the 10 with their basic training.

So yeah, that's that.

That was my thoughts as I was listening to you all tonight.

But it was very enjoyable.

Thank you very much.

I do just feel like we kind of did touch on that before.

I think that it's, I don't think that we can overhaul it.

The DVSA could overhaul it, but as you said, we don't want them to.

What we can do is we can influence individuals.

You know, I mentioned the individuals that reached out to me and said, I've started doing this because of this podcast.

There's, there's been people that reach out to me as a result of you free when, when you guys have come on the podcast or I've shared something you've done and then they've seen it and said, oh, now I've found this person because of you.

So we may not be able to overhaul the system, but we can reach individuals.

But you did have your NJC hat on there, so I'm going to ask you to remove it and bob on your bright coaching hat for a second.

Congratulations on having your first couple of qualifications.

You're also very proud.

Thank you very much.

Thanks for the shout out and thanks to Lilis for your help and you know, crossing the I's and dotting the t's and all that kind of stuff at the end.

I appreciate it.

Well, on that note, I think we are going to wrap up.

So as soon as you're on, Stuart, you want to take a moment to tell people what you offer and where they can find you.

Hello, I'm Stuart Lockery, I'm the chair at the ADI ngc.

You can find me there.

And if you want a discount for the ngoc, come and join the Instructor Podcast Premium.

We'll get you a discount.

But I also want to mention this, Stuart Kenworth has been in the chat.

Now, Stuart, correct me if I'm wrong, Chris is a pdi.

Yes, yes.

And he's put a lovely comment saying, I always try and make sure I cover day to day situations like drive throughs, multi story car parks, et cetera.

This helps repair the learner for after test.

That's a PDI doing that.

So when we talk about the fact that we can overhaul stuff, we can influence individuals so that.

That's really pleased for me.

So, so yes, Chris, do you want to take a moment to tell people who you are and where they can find you?

I'm Chris Benstead.

I'm really bad at names and then when Terry asked me questions like that, I suddenly panic that I've got the wrong name with the wrong thing because I don't remember stuff.

So I'm hoping I got that right.

I'm Chris Benstead and I am one of the voices behind the ditc if you want to come and check us out there.

And I do theory stuff, amongst other things.

I'm a jack of all trades, me.

Award winning theory stuff.

Chris.

Liz, I'll just take a moment to remind people who you are and where they can find you.

Yeah, thanks, Terry.

So, Lizbox, if you're interested in some of the research that I've talked about today, probably best to pop over to the RAC foundation website.

We've got lots of freely available research there, particularly on young drivers, which you can have a look at.

Come and join us over on the Copilot Vision Zero community.

There's a whole load of different people there, from emergency services to local authorities, to driver trainers, insurers.

We kind of want to get everybody in the space talking to each other, working collaboratively.

So come and join us over there if you want to find out about anything else that I'm up to.

Probably best place to catch me is on, on LinkedIn.

I try and update that if there's relevant things for people in my network to have a look at.

And if you are still listening, you've clearly enjoyed the show.

So you might want to go and check out some more www.the instructorpodcast.com where you can find out where you can work with me in fervor.

And for all the links from today's episode, make sure you go and check out the show notes.

But for now, let's just keep raising standards.

The instructor podcast with Terry Cook talking with leaders, innovators, experts in game changers.

About what drives them.