Transcripts
Welcome everyone to Unboxing Logistics.
Speaker:I'm your host, Lori Boyer from EasyPost, and today I am really excited to be talking about returns.
Speaker:So, returns is one of the big things that we deal with and face in this industry.
Speaker:And, you know, I get a lot of questions about kind of what do returns look like?
Speaker:What, what do consumers want with returns these days?
Speaker:What is everybody doing?
Speaker:You know, how do I keep the standards so that I'm, you know, providing a great
Speaker:experience, but also managing costs?
Speaker:All of those questions are returns.
Speaker:So I have invited on an amazing guest today to walk us through kind of
Speaker:the evolution of the returns market.
Speaker:What it looked like in the past, how it's changing.
Speaker:So Eric Wimer of Sway, formerly Returnmates, is here with us today.
Speaker:Eric, why don't you introduce yourself to our community out there?
Speaker:Tell us a little bit about your background and who you are.
Speaker:Awesome.
Speaker:Yeah, Lori, it's great to be here.
Speaker:Thanks for the warm introduction.
Speaker:Yeah, I'm Eric Wimer.
Speaker:I'm the co founder and CEO at Sway.
Speaker:We used to be called Returnmates.
Speaker:We started the business about four years ago in Los Angeles.
Speaker:Most of my early career was spent at Uber from 2012 to mid 2017.
Speaker:And I was primarily launching markets and operating them all over
Speaker:the, all over the United States.
Speaker:So I've spent the past 10 years or so in this gig space, kind of moving people and things around.
Speaker:And yeah, I'm really excited to chat with you today about, you know,
Speaker:one of my favorite topics, returns.
Speaker:Awesome.
Speaker:That is fantastic.
Speaker:And it really is interesting how kind of the, the Uber sphere, all of that logistical,
Speaker:movement of things has become so big and how it really does tie into today's returns market.
Speaker:So we're going to jump into that.
Speaker:But before we do, our community always, we'd love to get to know our guests just a little bit.
Speaker:So I'm going to put you on the spot and ask you a couple of questions.
Speaker:So question number one, what would be your go to comfort meal?
Speaker:What food do you just love when you're thinking, I need some, some of that good old comfort.
Speaker:What's, what's your fave?
Speaker:I love that question.
Speaker:I'm going to give you an answer that is probably not the norm that you get from
Speaker:people, but I live in, I live in Los Angeles.
Speaker:I love the beach culture, surf culture, things like that.
Speaker:And I am an açaí bowl aficionado.
Speaker:So it's one of those things, it kind of tastes like a dessert, but you know,
Speaker:you can also eat it in the morning.
Speaker:Say it again, because I, I'm starting to maybe embarrass myself in front
Speaker:of everyone, but an açaí bowl?
Speaker:Yeah, so it's a Brazilian fruit.
Speaker:And they make it into a bowl.
Speaker:So it kind of looks like a smoothie.
Speaker:And then you put a bunch of toppings on it.
Speaker:So granola, you can put cacao a bunch of sliced fresh fruit and yeah, it's delicious.
Speaker:Drizzle, a little honey on there.
Speaker:You've got a, you've got a nice little breakfast.
Speaker:Eric, tell me, okay, first, how do you spell acai?
Speaker:A C A I.
Speaker:Okay, okay, okay.
Speaker:I've seen it.
Speaker:Acai.
Speaker:Sometimes when you don't know what you're doing, you think it's acai or something.
Speaker:Yeah, exactly.
Speaker:So it's a Brazilian fruit.
Speaker:It is.
Speaker:Yes.
Speaker:That's where, that's where it's grown, and they make it into a smoothie.
Speaker:So the base is a smoothie.
Speaker:You could have, you know, any type of milk that you like in there, typically frozen banana.
Speaker:And then on the top is where it gets to be a lot of fun.
Speaker:So granola, sliced fresh fruit, drizzle some honey on there.
Speaker:Yeah, it's, it's fantastic.
Speaker:So as strange as that is, that's, you know, my kind of go to comfort food, cause
Speaker:you kind of mix breakfast with dessert.
Speaker:And yeah, it's, it's fantastic.
Speaker:Oh man, that sounds amazing.
Speaker:Honestly, that is so, Eric, I can see we could be like best buddies.
Speaker:Cause that sounds so good to me, like something I would love, especially if
Speaker:you're there in the warmth of the LA sun and getting some nice cool food.
Speaker:So I think I know the answer to this one, but would you prefer mountains or beach?
Speaker:Oh, wow.
Speaker:That's a really, really tough question.
Speaker:So the reason I love Los Angeles is because you have both.
Speaker:But if I had to choose one, I would choose the beach.
Speaker:I love to surf.
Speaker:I love the sand.
Speaker:But I also love to snowboard and be in the mountains and do those types of things.
Speaker:So it's a, it's a really difficult one.
Speaker:In an ideal world, you have both that are within striking distance.
Speaker:But proximity wise where I'm going to live, I would I would choose the beach.
Speaker:Okay, good to know.
Speaker:He's going for the beach.
Speaker:Mountain lovers out there, we can ride him on.
Speaker:So okay, Eric, we always start with a couple of takeaways from my guests.
Speaker:It's really important that if people only caught one or two things that they, you
Speaker:can share those right now at the beginning.
Speaker:And we can go back and follow up on those more as we go.
Speaker:But if people could only take away one to two, three things from today's conversation, what
Speaker:is it that you would want them to remember?
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:So one thing is that consumer expectations around returns are just ever evolving.
Speaker:It's not something that's stagnant.
Speaker:It's a constant iteration.
Speaker:And there are a number of reasons for that, which I'm excited to talk to you about later today.
Speaker:Another piece is home pickup is a new solution.
Speaker:It's very much in the early days, but essentially having someone come to your home to process
Speaker:the return and grabbing it from your doorstep.
Speaker:And I think there's a common misconception out there that it's more expensive.
Speaker:And we've actually found that it's cheaper, faster, and it can create a more loyal customer.
Speaker:So that's something I'm excited to discuss.
Speaker:And then lastly, returns are just incredibly unsustainable in their current form and
Speaker:how they're currently being processed.
Speaker:There's over a hundred billion pounds of returns that end up in a landfill every year.
Speaker:And so this is kind of a call to action that we just need to think about it.
Speaker:We need to put our heads together to come up with a solution in order to help reduce that and create
Speaker:a more sustainable supply chain for that process.
Speaker:I love that.
Speaker:The sustainability piece is so big and I do hear from people all the time about it.
Speaker:You know, it just makes us feel a little sick to think of all these brand new products
Speaker:just filling, you know, landfills out there.
Speaker:So I'm excited to follow up on that.
Speaker:I loved how you started with the consumer expectations are continuing to shift.
Speaker:Because I think that sometimes we get stuck in the mindset of, oh,
Speaker:well, this is what consumers think.
Speaker:So now I'm going to move forward with my plan based on what they think now.
Speaker:And, and kind of that agility and flexibility when it comes to expectations is so critical.
Speaker:Can you take me back to maybe how returns were at the very beginning
Speaker:of sort of the ecommerce coming out.
Speaker:You know, when I was young and there wasn't really even ecommerce around, you just took, if you had
Speaker:a problem with something, you just took it back to the store because you bought it at a store.
Speaker:So, you know, let's remind everybody kind of how, how did returns start?
Speaker:And and how has that evolved a little bit?
Speaker:Yeah, totally.
Speaker:I mean, I think if, depending on how far we go back, just the earliest days of ecommerce.
Speaker:In most cases, you didn't return anything, right?
Speaker:Most of these, most of these sellers didn't accept returns.
Speaker:I remember buying a video game on eBay when I was a kid and there was just no option to return.
Speaker:You also had no idea when the item was going to show up or if an item was going to show up at all.
Speaker:And so that kind of leads into when ecommerce became a little bit more prevalent.
Speaker:So the way you would, you would process a return is you would have to contact the company.
Speaker:Hopefully you could get ahold of the company.
Speaker:They may have you fill out some type of form.
Speaker:So you'd go through some arduous process to let them know why you're sending the item back.
Speaker:There was typically a very short return window that you had to that you had to abide by.
Speaker:And you had no visibility on how the item was getting back or when it got back.
Speaker:And then refunds could take weeks or months.
Speaker:So we think about where returns are today compared to that.
Speaker:It's come a long way.
Speaker:And it's come a long way because of the penetration that we've seen into online
Speaker:shopping and ecommerce as a whole.
Speaker:It seems like that would have been a barrier early on with ecommerce that people didn't want to buy
Speaker:things online because of the returns process.
Speaker:So I guess, how did it shift?
Speaker:How did they overcome that barrier and start being more, you know, willing to do returns?
Speaker:Yeah, absolutely.
Speaker:I think what these companies found after speaking to customers and continuing to
Speaker:sell more online was that there's this psychological moment that you have when
Speaker:you're thinking about buying something.
Speaker:And if, if you need the confidence in order to get yourself over the hump to click purchase.
Speaker:Right.
Speaker:And I think what we found was returns is actually a key component of that.
Speaker:So if the customer up front knew what the return policy was, it was very clear, and you
Speaker:could reduce the friction for them to get that item back, you're more likely to purchase.
Speaker:And so the whole return side of the equation has played a very key role in just opening up
Speaker:the floodgates to people purchasing online.
Speaker:So I have a kind of question for you.
Speaker:So I've noticed.
Speaker:I'm almost a Gen Xer, kind of right on that border with millennial, but my my
Speaker:daughter is Gen Z, early 20, you know.
Speaker:And I am not very good at returns.
Speaker:And I'm wondering if it's related to.
Speaker:So I'll buy stuff and then I don't get around to returning it.
Speaker:And then and so I'm a little more hesitant.
Speaker:Where my daughter literally, Eric, she, I swear, she buys stuff and return something every day.
Speaker:She is just, she's grown up, I guess, maybe with that trust just already built in where I'm like,
Speaker:oh, that's not a natural part of my process.
Speaker:Do you feel like, I guess, certain generations maybe, that you have to approach them
Speaker:differently with returns, or am I just kind of a dinosaur, maybe, who's a little bit slower?
Speaker:I truly believe that each generation has a certain level of education on returns.
Speaker:At least a foundational education on just how to process these things.
Speaker:And yeah, what we're seeing with Gen Z is they grew up purchasing things online, right?
Speaker:Whereas we may not have, you know, purchased as many things and, and the return process
Speaker:was kind of still evolving dramatically when we were doing our first purchases.
Speaker:So absolutely.
Speaker:I think what we found is there's a bunch of different types of shoppers.
Speaker:There's the shopper that doesn't return anything, right?
Speaker:They buy online, but they don't return anything.
Speaker:There's people that.
Speaker:I'm the type of person that I'm constantly buying online and constantly returning.
Speaker:Just part of the process.
Speaker:And then there's another type of shopper that doesn't shop online at all, right?
Speaker:They're actually just shopping in person.
Speaker:And so those three personas all kind of play a role in the expectations that we have around
Speaker:the purchasing process and the return process.
Speaker:And yeah, it's a, it's a really interesting dynamic but it's clear that in order for
Speaker:everyone to get to that same level of having that comfort the process has to continue to evolve.
Speaker:I love it.
Speaker:And you mentioned, one of the things you mentioned in your takeaways was
Speaker:that kind of pick up sort of service.
Speaker:And I can see, and we're going to get into that in a little bit, but I could
Speaker:see how a person like me, you know, that maybe if your target audience is somebody
Speaker:like me, that would be very attractive.
Speaker:Because I obviously just don't get around and I end up having items that I pass
Speaker:the window date and I'm just stuck with.
Speaker:So we'll get back to that, but I want to talk about it.
Speaker:One thing I'd question for you.
Speaker:So we really can't talk about returns, or anything ecommerce almost, without mentioning Amazon.
Speaker:How did Amazon come in and kind of impact just the industry when it comes to returns?
Speaker:Yeah, so I'll start on the other side of the equation, which is the purchasing,
Speaker:because I think it's a really, really important piece of the, of the puzzle.
Speaker:But Amazon has made the purchasing process incredibly seamless.
Speaker:There's a reason why we open that app up and within a click, you can purchase something.
Speaker:And so I think that was one of the core attributes of that service that helped
Speaker:drive more, more ecommerce penetration.
Speaker:But on the return side, I think one thing that they've done that's been really
Speaker:interesting early on was offer options on how you're going to send that return back.
Speaker:So historically your only option would have been, hey, I have to, I have to mail this thing.
Speaker:Right?
Speaker:So I've got to package everything up, box it, label it, and go drop it off
Speaker:at USPS or another type of carrier.
Speaker:Well, Amazon really kind of led the way and starting to offer multiple options
Speaker:for how you would send these items back.
Speaker:So, you know, they purchased Whole Foods and then created that network where you could go drop off,
Speaker:and those became boxless and labelless drop offs.
Speaker:And then you look at your phone as soon as they scan the items and you see your refund.
Speaker:So that's getting people back into the ecosystem really quickly.
Speaker:So that whole process end to end, I think it's something Amazon did really well,
Speaker:focusing on the customer experience.
Speaker:But you know what, what we sometimes don't realize is that ends up being
Speaker:the reason that we go back, right.
Speaker:The reason that we continue to purchase.
Speaker:So creating a seamless experience is just really critical.
Speaker:And, you know, Amazon, we, sometimes we, in the industry, if you're, you know, that fight
Speaker:against Amazon, it feels like this behemoth that, you know, you're trying to compete with Amazon.
Speaker:But the truth is, Amazon's really opened a lot of doors for everybody else.
Speaker:In a way, it was the Amazon that got me feeling comfortable buying things online.
Speaker:At first, I only ever bought things on Amazon, got used to that, and then
Speaker:it sort of spread to everyone else.
Speaker:Similarly, you know, I was just reading an article that mentioned how, you know,
Speaker:Amazon this year on Prime Day broke all their records for the most sales.
Speaker:But on the flip side, 7 billion was spent, during Prime Day for other businesses outside of Amazon.
Speaker:So, you know, we are taking advantage and also growing with Amazon.
Speaker:What are you seeing in terms of maybe Amazon returns today?
Speaker:You know, what, what, I guess, return options are you seeing being available?
Speaker:Not just at Amazon, but across different companies?
Speaker:Yeah, there's a few key areas or options that people have to return
Speaker:items that they purchased online.
Speaker:So the first and again, more traditional option is we're going to pass you this shipping label and
Speaker:we expect you to package the item back up, right?
Speaker:So you're going to need a printer.
Speaker:You're going to need tape and you're going to still need your box.
Speaker:Or maybe you can go grab another box that's lying around, maybe something from Amazon, but
Speaker:so that, that's kind of the traditional option.
Speaker:And Eric, how many companies do you think are still doing the traditional?
Speaker:I mean, I, I'm not going to quote you on it and we're going
Speaker:... Yeah, don't quote me on the percentage, but I, but I would say almost every single
Speaker:company has that as at least one option.
Speaker:An option.
Speaker:Okay.
Speaker:And they should?
Speaker:Is that something consumers expect?
Speaker:I think in order to, in order to remove that option, you would really need the other
Speaker:options to cover 100 percent of zip codes in the country, whether it's drop off or having
Speaker:someone come to your home to pick the items up.
Speaker:So I think those have been the limiting factors as to why mail in in that
Speaker:shape and form would still be relevant.
Speaker:Okay.
Speaker:Okay, so mail in is the standard.
Speaker:Pretty much everybody offers that.
Speaker:That's the basics anyway, not the standard, but a basic.
Speaker:Okay, what else do we got?
Speaker:Exactly.
Speaker:So another option would be to drop it off at a local retail location or whether it's, so
Speaker:whether you're dropping it off in store to that same brand, or maybe you're dropping it off at
Speaker:a Staples or a Whole Foods or another carrier.
Speaker:And this is something that's become a lot more popular over the last 10 to 15 years.
Speaker:And that option, some of the benefits of that are in a lot of cases, you don't have to package
Speaker:the items up, so there are now boxless, labelless options where you get passed a QR code, I show
Speaker:up at one of those stores, I hand the person my returns, and then, you know, they scan
Speaker:your QR code, so that's a little bit better.
Speaker:Right.
Speaker:We don't have to get the tape out.
Speaker:Most people don't have a printer these days.
Speaker:If you do have a printer, it's probably because you're printing return labels.
Speaker:I would, I would take a bet on that.
Speaker:And so yeah, that option, what, the way I always think about that option is.
Speaker:It's a little bit better than what existed before.
Speaker:But it's, it's still not the most seamless option that you can provide.
Speaker:And the third option, so there's, there's really three, the third option, which is
Speaker:definitely more, this is earlier in the evolution evolution stage, is the home pickup.
Speaker:So with the home pickup, you can drop an item outside your door or choose
Speaker:to hand it to a driver directly.
Speaker:And that item gets picked up directly from your home.
Speaker:And the driver scans the item in and there's the ability for that refund
Speaker:to get released right upon pickup.
Speaker:So you're bringing that same in store drop off experience to the shopper's door.
Speaker:And in a world where we all value convenience, right?
Speaker:We have food delivery at the click of a button.
Speaker:We have ride share at the click of a button.
Speaker:Being able to process your return at the door at the click of a button is pretty special.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:Are, are you seeing companies like Amazon starting to do this kind of stuff?
Speaker:There was an article a few days, a few weeks ago that actually stated that Amazon was
Speaker:testing this in a couple of Texas markets.
Speaker:So it's interesting, and it goes back to your point about Amazon not only leading the
Speaker:way in some of these areas, but encouraging the rest of the market to follow to satisfy
Speaker:these changing consumer expectations.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:To kind of set that standard.
Speaker:So that's really interesting for me.
Speaker:Again, personally, that pickup would obviously be huge.
Speaker:So okay, we're going to dive into the pickup.
Speaker:I want to get to that.
Speaker:We're going to, I have some frequently asked questions just around returns that I run, want
Speaker:to make sure we get to, but I would love to talk a little bit more about this pickup option.
Speaker:So what, I guess, what are the pros and cons?
Speaker:So one of my concerns right off is, I guess it's going back to anything new.
Speaker:Like we said earlier, you know, there was that trust factor early on of like, oh,
Speaker:will the company really take my returns?
Speaker:If I just send this off, is this actually going to work?
Speaker:You know?
Speaker:So I guess as a consumer, there's some of those concerns.
Speaker:What, I guess, what are the pros and cons of, of the, the pickup service?
Speaker:As with anything new, there's always an educational curve to get over with the shopper.
Speaker:What we had actually seen was once somebody uses it once, there's a very high
Speaker:likelihood they come back to use it again.
Speaker:So I think on the con side or on the opportunity side, it, it is an educational play in order
Speaker:to get people comfortable with the service.
Speaker:So that's definitely a challenge initially.
Speaker:There, and that's the same for drop off, right?
Speaker:Just building trust with ecommerce is so, so critical because it's, it's meeting, it's
Speaker:the digital and the physical world meeting.
Speaker:Right.
Speaker:So you have, you're trusting that that package is going to show up at your door.
Speaker:And then when you send it back, you want to know that you can get it out of your house and that
Speaker:you get your refund back so you can start shopping again or potentially exchange for another item.
Speaker:I think the benefit is that again in a world of convenience, you can simply
Speaker:just leave your item at the door.
Speaker:You don't need any type of box, which helps make things a bit more sustainable.
Speaker:You don't need to print a label, so you don't need to have a printer lying around, taking
Speaker:up space in your home and wasting paper.
Speaker:And everything can be processed really quickly to get that refund back to you as soon as possible.
Speaker:The thing that I always say is people want two things when it comes to returns.
Speaker:They want to get the item out of their house so they don't have to look at it
Speaker:anymore, and they want their money back.
Speaker:Those are kind of the two core pieces that, you know, people are looking to solve
Speaker:when they, when they send something back.
Speaker:Yeah, really.
Speaker:It's very interesting to me because again, I'm that market, maybe who my daughter is
Speaker:definitely a go drop it off at a place.
Speaker:You know, she, she returns things all the time, but she's just good about always going and
Speaker:swinging by the UPS store, swinging by a retail store, you know, and dropping it back off.
Speaker:She's definitely not printing things off.
Speaker:Where I'm the one who, you know, I'll be busy and I don't want to
Speaker:drive out and go drop something off.
Speaker:So that is something that I feel like in many ways, there's a lot of opportunity there for
Speaker:people like me who are not returning things.
Speaker:So that's super exciting.
Speaker:I, I'm assuming.
Speaker:So for our average ecommerce person out there that they're going to be
Speaker:wanting to offer multiple options.
Speaker:Yeah, absolutely.
Speaker:I mean, even if you just think about the different geographies across the country,
Speaker:it's, it's almost impossible today to cover every zip code with every single option, right?
Speaker:You may, you may have to drive.
Speaker:If you live in a very rural area, you may have to drive 15, 20 minutes to
Speaker:get to the closest drop off location.
Speaker:So I believe it's really critical that there are multiple options.
Speaker:So yeah, so that consumers can choose what works best for them to send those items back.
Speaker:And then again, as the industry continues to evolve, you know, I imagine a world where we, we,
Speaker:anyone could come to your doorstep to grab those items and, and pick them up regardless of where
Speaker:you live, just to make that process more seamless.
Speaker:Who is a person?
Speaker:Are we talking like an Uber driver type person?
Speaker:Is it the carrier who's coming to pick up the item?
Speaker:I guess I'm thinking security wise of making sure that the item doesn't
Speaker:get lost or stolen as the business.
Speaker:Who is that kind of person who would be coming to pick it up?
Speaker:Yeah, totally.
Speaker:And, and just to preface, UPS, FedEx, USPS, they've been offering pickups
Speaker:at your door for quite some time.
Speaker:The difference is that it hasn't been the most reliable service.
Speaker:And then from a visibility and tracking standpoint and processing of the actual return.
Speaker:That's where things have been lagging.
Speaker:And so, you know, at Sway, we use a network of independent contractors.
Speaker:So similar to how Uber contracts with drivers or for Uber Eats, people delivering food.
Speaker:The difference is these folks are on 30 to 50 stop routes in a neighborhood, and
Speaker:they're not just doing return pickups, they're doing deliveries as well.
Speaker:So when they come to the door, they will get a full description of what they're
Speaker:picking up and they actually then scan that item and tag it with a QR code.
Speaker:And then those items come back to local facilities where they're processed.
Speaker:So every step of this process is fully visible to both the brand and the shopper, which we
Speaker:found was just a really critical piece of the experience to give people the confidence
Speaker:to send their items back a different way.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:I think it's that confidence piece that, you know, has to be built up.
Speaker:And, and I, I, yeah, I love the idea of having multiple options.
Speaker:How would you, how do you recommend, so let's say that you are wanting to add new return
Speaker:options or that you're just shifting your current returns, you know, maybe you're changing
Speaker:your the window of returns or doing anything.
Speaker:How do you recommend people communicate their policies and their options to customers?
Speaker:I think it's best to always be transparent and upfront.
Speaker:There's a reason why you're seeing brands return options or return policies on
Speaker:the landing pages of their websites.
Speaker:Or on the product, under the product descriptions.
Speaker:Because again, it's encouraging you to purchase if you know that it's a seamless returns process.
Speaker:So that's a, that's a really critical component.
Speaker:I mean, I would recommend definitely doing the research on the different return portals
Speaker:out there because the return management systems, because they are the ones that really
Speaker:are able to offer you the specific options.
Speaker:So I'd recommend choosing one that offers the in store drop off on
Speaker:top of the mailing the item back.
Speaker:And now some of them are starting, we're actually integrating with a number of them, they're
Speaker:starting to offer the home pickup program.
Speaker:So I would want to be with a return portal and platform that is continuing to innovate
Speaker:and adding, you know, as many options as possible for the, for the shopper.
Speaker:That's perfect.
Speaker:That was one of my, so I have a little list of frequently asked questions
Speaker:from my audience around returns.
Speaker:And one of them was like, what kind of features should we be looking at in an online portal?
Speaker:So first it sounds like kind of flexibility and innovation and options.
Speaker:Are there other things that they should be looking for in like a portal?
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:One thing that we're really passionate about is exchanges.
Speaker:So when you're thinking about, okay, how do I reduce my overall returns, right?
Speaker:Because the goal of home pickup is not to increase the return rate.
Speaker:It's just to provide a more convenient option for how people are sending their items back.
Speaker:So exchanges is a really interesting option because at the end of the day,
Speaker:the brands want to just drive more sales.
Speaker:So if I didn't get the right item, help me get the right item.
Speaker:Is it a color issue?
Speaker:Is it a size issue?
Speaker:Now that obviously relates more to apparel, but if it's electronics, perhaps there is
Speaker:another model that you would like just as much or more as the one that you're sending back.
Speaker:And so looking for a portal that offers a really seamless exchange process is, I think, really
Speaker:important when yeah, considering a new platform.
Speaker:Okay.
Speaker:So exchange process, lots of flexibility.
Speaker:I love that you brought up the fact that we're trying to reduce returns.
Speaker:Any other tips around helping companies who do feel overwhelmed with returns?
Speaker:How can what are some just basics that they can do to try to cut back?
Speaker:Yeah, so I mean, I'm looking at this from, because we're all consumers too right, when I when I
Speaker:purchase something online, just having really accurate product descriptions is always helpful.
Speaker:Having reviews at the bottom of the page so that you can see what other people are
Speaker:experiencing with sizing and things like that.
Speaker:And I think at the end of the day, the brand has to take customer feedback
Speaker:and iterate their product on that.
Speaker:So for example, if everyone is saying, hey, this T-shirt that I purchased, I ordered
Speaker:a medium, but it's fitting like an extra large, like they need to update that on
Speaker:their end in order to help reduce the amount of returns that are coming through.
Speaker:But ultimately, I believe exchanges is the best way because everyone wins in that scenario.
Speaker:The consumer gets what they want and the brand saves the sale, which to them is super critical
Speaker:given, you know, the overall cost of a return.
Speaker:A couple of things you've mentioned, which I really think are critical are transparency and
Speaker:being really clear in in what the process is.
Speaker:You know, there's been a lot of research done around that, that as long as people feel like
Speaker:it's that trust piece, I think, but as long as people feel like they know what's happening
Speaker:and, and what the next step is, and maybe where their item is at all of those kinds of
Speaker:things, then they, they'll trust a company more.
Speaker:Do you have any tips?
Speaker:I, people struggle with creating kind of good, clear, transparent return policies while not
Speaker:making them, you know, also getting bogged down with the legal jargon and all of that.
Speaker:So any, any tips for people with, when it comes to creating policies and being transparent?
Speaker:Yeah, I think just being up front with the policies and and simplifying it.
Speaker:So if I'm shopping on a, on a website and I see, okay, there's a
Speaker:fee for the return to ship it back.
Speaker:There's a very short return window, and there's a restocking fee.
Speaker:That's naturally going to discourage me from shopping at that brand.
Speaker:Or maybe there's no return option at all.
Speaker:It's just a lot more risky in that scenario, right?
Speaker:So the confidence level goes down when you're thinking about the purchase.
Speaker:So I think just being upfront and very clear about the policies, but then also providing very
Speaker:strong visibility throughout the returns process.
Speaker:One thing that I found really helpful is getting an email once the brand receives
Speaker:the item in their warehouse and is actually processing it and then getting another
Speaker:notification once the refund has been released.
Speaker:Because those are things that 10, 15 years ago there was zero visibility, and you were kind of
Speaker:just waiting around checking your bank statements or, you know, checking your banking app every day
Speaker:to see when you're going to get your money back.
Speaker:And again, one thing that the industry has seen is the faster that you get someone their refund, the
Speaker:quicker they get back into the ecosystem to shop.
Speaker:So there's a business case for this as well outside of just the shopper's need for visibility.
Speaker:Yes.
Speaker:And, you know, I love how, I feel like one of the things you mentioned was, you know, if you've
Speaker:got all these different fees and people see them.
Speaker:I think one of the worst things, though, is if you have fees and people don't see them.
Speaker:I recently had tried to return and there was a restocking fee that I was not aware of.
Speaker:And I, so I just felt caught off guard and, and felt maybe like, whoa, next time, are there
Speaker:going to be other fees I don't know about?
Speaker:So Only thing worse than having too many fees is having too many fees that you
Speaker:don't let people know about, I think.
Speaker:Let's talk about some of the standards with like fees.
Speaker:I mean, I just, people often want to know what is everyone else doing.
Speaker:And so, because, you know, they want to make sure they're doing, that they're not worse
Speaker:or, or more, you know, than their competition.
Speaker:So, you know, what, when do companies typically charge things like restocking fees?
Speaker:Are they okay to do it now?
Speaker:Is that okay with the consumer?
Speaker:For a while, it seemed like everything with returns had to be free, free, free, free, free.
Speaker:There's been some shifting with so many costs.
Speaker:You know, what, what is typical?
Speaker:What are some typical fees people do charge and when?
Speaker:Yeah, so some people charge for the shipping to get the item back.
Speaker:And that does tend to be one of the most expensive components of processing
Speaker:a return for a brand or a merchant.
Speaker:And so that's an important consideration.
Speaker:And then there's also a restocking fee, which some brands charge, and that restocking fee is aimed to
Speaker:offset the cost of actually processing the return.
Speaker:So whether there's any type of refurbishment, actually restocking it.
Speaker:So we could just getting it ready to sell to another consumer.
Speaker:And so there, it varies widely what people do.
Speaker:There is the standard.
Speaker:There's the very high standard of we're offering, you know, free shipping and returns,
Speaker:and we're completely reducing the friction.
Speaker:Now that doesn't come without policies, right?
Speaker:Typically most companies have 14 to 30 day return windows, that's kind of the standard.
Speaker:Fourteen to 30 is sort of the standard.
Speaker:Okay.
Speaker:Good to know.
Speaker:Yeah, yeah, exactly.
Speaker:And then, you know, with those companies, they're paying for the shipping for the item to get back.
Speaker:They're providing you with a label.
Speaker:So that's kind of the highest standard.
Speaker:You know, the middle is, hey, you know, we're going to charge you a small fee to ship this
Speaker:item back, but perhaps there's no restocking fee.
Speaker:And then, you know, the, the more challenging return situations for the, for
Speaker:the shopper are when, you know, there's both a shipping fee and a restocking fee.
Speaker:Now this can happen for large items.
Speaker:I recently returned a piece of art and it weighed 100 pounds and they charged me, you
Speaker:know, 18 to 20 percent of that item to process it just because there was a significant cost to
Speaker:them picking that item up and sending it back and getting it ready for someone else to buy.
Speaker:So it really just depends on the type of item that the cost or the brands are selling
Speaker:And I think probably it's good for brands to just test and see at what
Speaker:point maybe sales start to drop off.
Speaker:If you're, you know, there's going to be the the cost that you'll be
Speaker:getting some money back from the fees.
Speaker:But at what point do people not buy as much?
Speaker:I'm guessing testing is always what you would recommend.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:Testing, I'd say looking at other brands or merchants in a similar space, you know,
Speaker:how are they handling their policies?
Speaker:Because what you don't want to do is have a worse policy than a competitor.
Speaker:Right.
Speaker:Or a, if I'm a, an athletics brand or athleisure brand, and There's another, there's
Speaker:a competitor that is free returns, and I'm charging for the shipping and a restocking
Speaker:fee, it's just a lower likelihood that you're going to get loyal customers over time, right?
Speaker:They may purchase the first time.
Speaker:You may get a lot of first time buyers, but the key to getting them to come
Speaker:back is you have to create that.
Speaker:You have to build that trust and create a really seamless experience for them
Speaker:on both the purchase and the return.
Speaker:Yeah, absolutely.
Speaker:So we're running a little low on time, but I really want to make sure that we talk on one
Speaker:final piece of cost versus customer experience.
Speaker:So I think that that's kind of a never ending discussion of, you know, we can create an amazing
Speaker:experience, but it might get a little bit spendy.
Speaker:I guess what are your, what are you seeing in the industry?
Speaker:What is best in terms of balancing just the cost aspect while creating
Speaker:an amazing customer experience?
Speaker:It's a great question.
Speaker:This is something that ebbs and flows constantly, right?
Speaker:With the market.
Speaker:You'll hear from brands, we need to save as much money as possible, right?
Speaker:And you're kind of disregarding the customer experience.
Speaker:And then in really good times, people are trying to find ways to differentiate and
Speaker:are hyper focused on the, on the consumer.
Speaker:The reality is, it has to be a balance of both, right?
Speaker:You can't swing too far in one direction.
Speaker:One thing that we've found at Sway is that you can provide the elevated customer experience,
Speaker:but we couple that with consolidation.
Speaker:Where we're putting multiple returns from the same retailer in one box and shipping it back in bulk.
Speaker:Those types of things allow you to reduce costs while you're providing the enhanced experience
Speaker:encouraging folks to exchange an item versus just returning it is also another way to, I mentioned
Speaker:earlier, but save the sale and help reduce your overall exposure of those costs because the
Speaker:consumer is actually purchasing something new.
Speaker:So there's a host of different ways to balance the experience and the cost, but
Speaker:you can't ignore either of them, right?
Speaker:They both have to be a consideration when you're setting up your, your return process.
Speaker:So at Sway, you know, if somebody is looking for some sort of advice around how do I balance it??
Speaker:Is that something that you guys help with I know that when people call easy post a lot of times
Speaker:they may be asking totally random things like, oh, we want to expand into an international market.
Speaker:Can you help advise us?
Speaker:Can people ask you those kind of things about returns?
Speaker:Totally.
Speaker:I mean, one of the, one of the cool parts of our process when we're pitching a merchant
Speaker:on our solutions is that we'll actually take a look at all of the returns data.
Speaker:We want to understand, how are people sending items back now?
Speaker:What is the operational flow?
Speaker:Like where do those items ultimately end up?
Speaker:And then with our local network, since we have, you know, warehouses in all of these local cities,
Speaker:we can then come back to them with a proposal on the path that we would recommend those returns
Speaker:follow to make it as efficient as possible.
Speaker:So again, to help reduce those per unit costs for the return while enhancing
Speaker:the experience with the home pickup, the quicker refunds, the faster processing time.
Speaker:So absolutely.
Speaker:Yeah, that's, that's what we enjoy doing is, is trying to help them build a full fledged
Speaker:solution, both technically, but also, you know, the, the dirty work of logistics, right.
Speaker:Moving things around in the physical world.
Speaker:I, that's something I can't say enough to our community out there.
Speaker:You have so many resources available to you when you're working with partners
Speaker:and when you have different vendors.
Speaker:There are always people you can reach out to and get advice and help.
Speaker:So don't hesitate to reach out to, you know, if you are at returns, contact your returns company.
Speaker:If you have questions around anything, really, you've got people probably who can help you.
Speaker:So, final question, Eric, what do you see as the future of returns?
Speaker:Any other innovations that you know, you see coming down the line?
Speaker:Anything you're excited about?
Speaker:Yeah, I love that question.
Speaker:So the daydreaming is the most fun part about, about working in this industry.
Speaker:But the vision that we have for returns is eventually let's say
Speaker:you're getting a package delivered.
Speaker:And we open up this communication channel with you, and you can actually hit a button
Speaker:and tell us you want to give us a return at the door when we drop off that delivery.
Speaker:And so that's a pretty amazing experience in and of itself, right?
Speaker:You didn't have to leave, it's boxless, labelless, you place it outside.
Speaker:But the icing on the cake is that you would then get the option to get your refund instantly.
Speaker:So if you think about how PayPal or Venmo or any of these services give you
Speaker:the option to get your money right away, and maybe there's a small fee for that.
Speaker:That's what we envision for returns.
Speaker:Because again, at the end of the day, people want the items out of their home
Speaker:and they want to get their money back.
Speaker:And this provides a really good opportunity to get them back into
Speaker:the shopping ecosystem for the brand.
Speaker:So that's kind of the future that we're envisioning.
Speaker:And then that item, instead of that item going back and perhaps getting thrown out or ending
Speaker:up in a landfill, if that item is not going to go back on the shelf, we can help resell it.
Speaker:We can put it on a secondary marketplace, give that item a second life.
Speaker:So that's really what we get excited about longer term and, you know, want to continue
Speaker:to innovate in the, in the industry.
Speaker:That is so cool.
Speaker:I think you're even going to get you know, old people like me, Lori
Speaker:Boyer, getting some returns going.
Speaker:So really interesting.
Speaker:I think you and I could keep talking for hours on other things, but before we go, I just,
Speaker:again, I want to thank you so much, Eric, for coming on, sharing all that info about returns.
Speaker:Community out there.
Speaker:If you have any questions, please feel free to reach out.
Speaker:Even if it's just around standards or, or, you know, things that ideas for how to make a great
Speaker:customer experience when it comes to returns.
Speaker:Eric, is there somewhere that people can connect with you?
Speaker:Are you on LinkedIn?
Speaker:If they want to learn more from you.
Speaker:Yeah, totally.
Speaker:LinkedIn, just my name, Eric Wimer, and then my email is eric@shipsway.com.
Speaker:Eric, thank you so much again for being here.
Speaker:Really insightful, interesting stuff.
Speaker:Any final words or a goodbye to our audience?
Speaker:No, thank you so much for having me on.
Speaker:And yeah, if anyone needs any help with the returns, definitely reach out.
Speaker:Awesome.
Speaker:We'll see you all next time.
