Ready to make your art the foundation of a thriving business but find yourself stuck in the “hustle” cycle, doubting your value or pricing? In this game-changing episode, Pat Miller and clinical psychotherapist-turned-advisor Kelly Ruta dive into the real reason photographer's stall: the internal mindset that either drives or destroys your external success.

Episode Highlights 🎤💡:

(13:58) - Why learning without discernment keeps photographers stuck

(21:05) - Zone of genius vs. self-worth: why you can charge more

(24:28) - Handling critique without internalizing it

Connect with Pat Miller ⬇

LinkedIn | Website

Connect with Kelly Ruta ⬇

LinkedIn | Website

I'm Pat Miller, and this is The Professional Photographer podcast. Okay, boys and girls, grab a cup of coffee, because today we're going deep. Like, literally. We're going inside your noggin. Kelly Ruta is our guest today, and we're going to talk through the internal architecture for external success. Now, you may ask yourself what I asked myself. What the heck is that? Well, she will quickly explain. It's how we think about what we do and how we have to put our mind right so we can present ourselves to the world in a way that lets our art be appreciated, that we can accept criticism, that we can charge what we're worth, and we can keep on keeping on when our head starts telling us ghost stories. That would be valuable, right? Seeing how we do what we love. What if we could be really strong mentally so we can continue to do it? Kelly's got all the answers. You're going to love this discussion. She's on the air next. Kelly, welcome to The Professional Photographer podcast. How are you today?

I'm so good, and I'm really excited about having this conversation with you today, so thank you for inviting me.

Well, I'm glad you're here. It's going to make the show better, and we're going to help some people out. But if someone hasn't met you yet, tell them who you are and what you do.

Absolutely. So I was a clinical psychotherapist in private practice and working in public schools for 20 years. And almost exactly 10 years ago, I decided to pivot. Did not see that coming at all. And I started my own business doing advisory work primarily with entrepreneurs. I've expanded now into other fields, but I do advisory work that really supports people who are in all kinds of industries to do the internal work that drives all of the external results.

How different is it to work with entrepreneurs rather than students? Are they the same just in different bodies, or is it a completely different ball game?

You know, it's so interesting. On the micro level, it's very different. And I worked primarily with really challenging adolescents when I worked with students. But on the macro level, we're all people. We all have the same deep desires. We all share the same pain points. You know, our context is different, our journey is different, but as human beings, we are so much more alike than we are different.

Okay, it's good to hear. Good to hear. Okay, so let's boil down a big sounding topic, because today's episode is about building the internal architecture for external success. Now, I know that you can explain that to me. Like I'm five, so let's start there. What do you mean by internal architecture for external success?

Absolutely. So when you are a driven person who loves what you do, loves what you create, it's important for you to do quality work that's also fulfilling and gives you a great life. You will likely start the beginning of that journey with a lot of grit, with a lot of tenacity, a lot of hustle. And these things are great. We all need them, but they're not meant to be long term strategies. They're meant to kind of fire the rocket off of the ground, so to speak. And while they're great, and if you try to use that long term, you're going to start to get diminished returns, number one. And number two, you're going to start to break down in a lot of ways because the human brain and the human body is not meant to be in constant go mode. And so when you get to a certain level of success and you realize, I love what I have, but I want to create more. And creative human beings always want to create more. We always want to grow and expand and explore. You begin to realize I cannot continue to do this with the same types of skills or mindsets or just even the same hustle energy that I started with, because it's going to burn me out, I'm already tired, and it's just not going to get me to the same level. So I tend to step in with people at that level and teach them exactly what they need to do to, to expand their bandwidth, their capacity, grow their next level identity, so you're not operating future you from what got you to where you are today. And that really is what inner architecture is all about. It's changing what you say after the words I am, and then changing how you show up and do the work that you do so that you can lead from an incredible place, but so you can also really enjoy what you've built. Whether it's your body of work, your art, the money that you're making, the space on your calendar, whatever it is, you don't want to burn down your life for the work that you're doing. We all do these things because we want to add to our lives. So you have to become a different person or a different version of the person you are.

This sounds really applicable to photographers who are selling their art for money.

1,000%. And one of the reasons why I have loved working with creatives and really anybody for whom their "brand" is very, very personal is that we have such a close identity attachment to our work. So, you know, you put out your photography, you put out your art, and it feels like an extension of yourself, when in reality, it's something you have produced, it's not who you are. And so you get to a certain level, especially when it's time to look at your pricing, it's time to look at your marketing strategies, it's time to look at how you're positioning yourself in the market, so to speak. You're going to have to really take a good hard look at that internal architecture because you are not what you produce. That is an extension, an expression of who you are. And so that's where photographers really start to bump into trouble with this is, what do you mean I have to charge for my art? I do this because I love it and I'm good at it and people like it. That doesn't put food on the table, though.

I have a thousand questions, but the first one is how come so much business energy is spent on the hustle and grind and strategy side, and not a lot of people are talking about the personal development and the things that you've just mentioned. Why is it so overlooked?

Oh, I could hug you for asking this question. Truly.

Come here.

Truly, truly. I'm coming through the screen because this is a question I've been exploring for a long, long time, and I've been talking about often, and it's just a very simple, straightforward answer. It's because the brain loves things that are linear. And so strategy in a lot of ways is very linear. Do this, try this. If not A, then B. It's really not rocket science. It's pretty easy to wrap your mind around. And when you bump into a snag, you can look at or speak to another strategist or a consultant or a colleague and say, hey, what did you do when this happened? The reverse or the other side of the coin, I should say, is doing the inner work can be more painful. It is not linear in any sense of the word. We often do three steps forward, four steps back, because that's what personal growth is all about. It can be a little intimidating for people. There's this sense that what I do not know about myself or what's driving my behavior must be something terrible, must be some awful character flaw or something terrible about me that I'm going to have to fix. And that's simply just not the truth. And so I think it scares a lot of people. And the second reason is in the last I'd say decade or so, the "coaching industry," quote unquote, has exploded. It is absolutely exploded. But there is no barrier for entry. You could literally step up, hang your shingle, and start charging tomorrow, regardless of your experience, your education, your training, any of those things. And a lot of coaches have been taught, oh, you just need to be one step ahead of the person that you're serving. And I find that to lack integrity and to sometimes be dangerous depending on the kind of work that you're doing. So when I entered this world, and I don't call myself a coach, I do some coaching, but it's much more high-level advice, advisory work. What I brought to the table was 20 years of experience, clinical experience, working with the brain, working with emotions, working with behavior, working with trauma, so that I could safely guide my clients through this growth work that's sometimes really difficult and that's what separates me. And I wish I saw more of that in the market, but that's simply not encouraged. It's like, come get this weekend certification, and you're ready to go. So I think those are really the two factors that contribute to that.

So it sounds like people are leading others. And the client and the coach, neither of them know where it will end up because his is a different type of outcome rather than something that they learned in their weekend training or during their MBA. This is much more personal, more emotional, more interpretive about where this might go. So we don't know where it's going, and I might not be qualified to go there in the first place. Am I hearing you right?

You're hearing me right. And if I can add just a little layer to that. Very few people are qualified to work with psychological resistance. Resistance is normal. It's what you feel when you go to start a new habit. You know when you were like, oh, I'm going to start exercising, I'm going to quit smoking, I'm going to stop the negative self-talk. It sounds like a great idea, you actually want to do it, but you're going to feel resistance, and that's normal, thousand percent normal. But really navigating that and guiding somebody to the other side of their resistance is a really important clinical skill. It's not something you just watch somebody do and then go and model it and do it. So that's incredibly important. That's number one. And number two, I think what's backwards for a lot of people in this industry, so to speak, is that they were taught that the order is make money first, do no harm second. And it should be the complete opposite, how do I ensure that I do no harm? And then, how do I figure out how to get my work, my business, my art, my whatever to make money?

All right, let's go back to the beginning with these concepts in mind. Where are the mistakes that we're making when we start our business with what you've already shared in this episode, like, where do we go wrong out of the gate?

That's a great question. And there's so many ways to go wrong. And I don't want this answer in any way to come off as critical because when you start, you bring with you a beginner's mind. You can expect to make mistakes. And as long as your mindset is I expect to make mistakes, and I also expect that I will learn from those mistakes, and you bring that mindset with you always, regardless of how much mastery you have, you're going to do well. It's going to be fine. But one of the very first mistakes is what you just said is that the investments you're making are 100% into strategy and not 100 or 50% into the person driving the strategy. For example, a business consultant or a business coach can lay out the most elegant plan for you to build a successful photography business. But if you can't follow through, if you can't get over your limiting beliefs, if you can't sit with your own fears, your own guilt, your own shame, whatever it might be, that plan is not going to be worth very much money. But I guarantee you probably paid a lot of money for it. So that's number one is we need to be working on the artist, the business owner, the entrepreneur, whatever you want to call yourself. And we need to work on the art, the business, whatever the entity is. So that's mistake number one. Mistake number two is not vetting who you allow into your inner circle. I cannot say enough about this. Unfortunately, we are in this age where there's a lot of guru mentality with a lot of "influencers." Look, Gen X, that word makes me want to choke. I'm going to be just completely honest with you. I can't stand that word. But we, we all know what I'm talking about. And influencers usually do a couple of really great things. They market incredibly, incredibly well. They speak or write in a very compelling way. But unfortunately, what's behind all of that? A little on the thin side. A little on the thin side. So I really encourage people to not come into your work, into any room, for example, where you have colleagues, people ahead of you, people behind you. Don't walk into that room with the initial thought, I don't belong here. Just assuming that everybody is ahead of you because somebody's on a stage or somebody says they're making X amount of money or they got featured in whatever. We're all human beings. We're all human beings. And be very mindful of this guru stuff. Yes. Be open to learning always. But learning, and this is so catchy. Sorry, I don't mean it to sound this way, but learning without discerning is a huge problem because here's the deal. Everything works. All the strategies work. The question is, what will work best for you? What's aligned with your skill set, your values, your goals, how you want to do your work. And that's not going to work for everybody. So those are the two big mistakes that I see right out of the gate is, you know, not investing in the development of yourself, just in the development of the craft or the business, and really only following kind of gurus without vetting and really seeing who is the right match for you, the right person for you to learn from.

Are photographers particularly at risk, especially at the beginning, because many of them are turning a passion and a hobby into a business. This is what I love to do, and now I'm going to go make money on it. Is that also a danger when they're trying to get out of the gate and turn it into a business?

1,000%. 1,000%. And I will tell you why, and I'll use myself as an example. So I was, you know, clinically trained. And in my training, they teach you how to do the work. They don't teach you how to build a business. Those are two profoundly different things. So I was very, very good at what I did and very, very bad at running at an agency because I had never been taught the ins and outs of that. Fortunately, I learned, and I hired somebody wonderful to teach me how to do it properly. But in my second go round with business, I realized, okay, I'm going into the online space. There's going to be a much bigger learning curve. I need to be on this early. And so that's number one, you know, an easy trap for anyone who takes a passion. So I see this particularly in any of the helping industries and any of the creative industries, because there's such personal passion and fulfillment attached in those industries that it's very easy to just quickly jump into it and then be like, why is this so difficult? How can I be this good at what I do and this bad at selling what I do. So yeah, absolutely. They are at high risk of stumbling and struggling there.

As we're building it. How do we get in touch with our internal architecture? I mean, we need to face the identity of who we are. As an entrepreneur, I know who I am as a photographer, but now I am a business owner that sells photography. So how do we get in touch with the inner architecture as we go forward to build the business?

Yeah, this is a fantastic question. So there's a very easy way to start. You take out a piece of paper, you set a timer for three minutes, and you write the words at the top of the paper, I am. And you brain dump every single thing that comes to mind. You don't question it, you don't dismiss it, you don't judge it, you just write it. Everything that comes flooding through. And then, when your timer goes off, you take a look at the list. And from, what I like to say, one step back from how close you are to things, just literally one step back, take a look at that list and ask yourself which of these things are going to support me achieving my goals and dreams or even setting them, right? Some people have trouble even dreaming big or setting goals attached to dreams, right? So which of these things will help me to do that and which of these things will hinder? And then the hinder list is where you begin to look to create growth and change. And when I say growth and change, I don't mean this in the sort of esoteric, sort of woo woo kind of way. I mean in a measurable way. So we can measure certain things tangibly. How much money you make, how many proposals you put out, how many sales calls you do, whatever, all of those things. But then there are things that you have to almost self report that I can't measure for you. But we can see examples of things like confidence, things like leadership, things like the ability to be a visionary, emotional agility, which means you can feel your emotions, name your emotions, tolerate your emotions, but still make decisions in alignment with your goals, not in alignment with your emotions. That takes a lot of practice by the way. If you can't do that, do not judge yourself. That takes a lot of practice. Right? So we have to take a look at both categories, the tangibly measurable things, and then the intangibles, which are sometimes more important.

Let's switch gears. You mentioned pricing before, and this is the problem, or one of the big problems that's out there. It is effortless or somewhat effortless for a photographer to take their unique vision and their unique talent to capture a stunning image. It's so easy for me to do. How can I possibly charge a lot for it? So talk us through how we think about pricing when it just comes so easy and naturally to us.

This is one of my favorite questions ever. And here is the very simple answer. People will pay for what they want that they cannot do themselves or do not have the time to learn or to do themselves. End of story. So what you have to keep in mind is what is easy for you is you can call it your gift, you can call it whatever you want. I refer to that as your zone of genius. Your zone of genius. Your zone of genius is supposed to be really easy for you. The reason it's valuable is that it is not easy for other people and it gives them something they want, whether it is a tangible something like art, photography, ceramics, whatever, or it's an intangible like I work on with my clients. Either way, it is something that the other person truly desires. And the place I see especially people in the first, let's say at least three years of doing this work where people get super messed up is confusing. Worth for value. Worth is your personal birthright. Value is what you exchange for money. And when you mix the two of them up and especially if you don't feel good about your own self-worth, there's going to be all kinds of money problems. Because look, we all come to the table with money stories. It's impossible to become an adult and not have some set of money stories that's going to get in your way. But if you are confusing and mixing up worth and value, and you're trying to price based on your self-worth, this is not going to go well, my friend. It's not going to go well. Right? So that's a great place to start. And it's a place I see creatives struggle all the time.

We're talking about self-worth, we gotta talk about critique. We put out our work, we put out something we think is beautiful, and many photographers have an interesting relationship with critique. So how would you have them address that?

That's a really good question. And I see this across the board with people I would say are creatives or artists. I've seen this in painters I've worked with, in authors that I've worked with, people who do sort of, you know, hands-on work, whether it's sculpture, you know, photography, whatever. I've seen this across the board. And I've seen one of two things happen. Number one, you put out a piece of work, and you cannot stop ripping it to shreds and then ripping yourself to shreds or the reverse. And I've seen this with my authors so many times, they put it out, and they go immediately looking for the one-star review. So when other people critique it, they go running to look for it and then start internalizing it and completely ignore the three, four, five-star reviews. So the brain, just so you understand and you don't judge yourself for doing this, this is how our brain is wired. Our brain is wired to look for threats everywhere. Everywhere. And it's our job. And this is an internal architecture type of skill. It's our job to start to retrain ourselves, to not just look at critiques, but to not internalize the critique. Right? Feedback and constructive feedback and corrective feedback, it's wonderful. You also have permission to dismiss it outright if you don't think it's useful. But you won't do that if you are in this constant cycle of critiquing yourself, you will automatically default to the right. They're right. I suck. This sucks. I can't believe I put that out there. I can't charge for it. The other thing is, the last author that I worked with, she said the first 90 days, I'm not reading any review that is under three stars. Nothing. I am only reading three, four, fives. And then, when I have studied myself and I feel more grounded into it being out there, I will go and read the other feedback and see if there's anything else that's useful I can pull from that. But the truth is, if you don't have really grounded, centered, self-awareness, self-worth, confidence in yourself, this is very difficult to do. It's very difficult to separate yourself from the criticism of what you produced. And it's hard to not internalize it.

You've brought up issue after issue. And just speaking for myself, yeah, I struggle with that. Yeah, that happens sometimes. Like the imposter syndrome is starting to flare up big time. Like, I guess I'm the only one that doesn't have all of this figured out. How would we work through that? Because it's something that I struggle with, and I know a lot of our viewers struggle with every day.

Yeah, this is great. So let me ask you a question first. When you hear yourself say that to me, I want you to say that thought again. Say that thought again to me.

It feels like I'm the only One that doesn't have it figured out. You talked about all these issues and they were ringing true with me. I do that. I feel that that's happened to me, and it can make me feel like, oh, if I could figure that out, I could be as successful as that other person. That must be what's holding me back. I'm the only one that doesn't get it. That's kind of what it feels like.

Beautiful. Where do you have evidence that that is true?

I can't really point to it, in here, in my head.

Thank you. So this is without getting crazy, deep into psychology, this is what I want your listeners to understand. You have an ego. Your ego is not evil. I hear all this stuff online, like kill the ego, please don't try to do that. That's ridiculous. Your ego has helped you many, many times in this situation because you are either doing something new or you're looking to do it in a new or up-leveled way. Your ego is going to poke its head in and get involved. And here's why. The ego operates on the principle that basically, that the devil you know, so what you've already done, what you've already survived, what you've already succeeded at is safer and better than the devil you don't know. And that the devil you don't know might actually take you out completely. So what the ego does is, oh, that's so cute. You want to raise your prices. That's adorable. Do you know how much you suck? Do you have any idea that you are the only one who doesn't have your ish together? Like, how embarrassing for you. I can't even believe you're going to submit that piece that, you know, that art, that print, that, whatever. I can't, like who do you think you are? Who do you think you are? Also, it will tell you that whatever failure, disappointment, rejection you get, you cannot survive it. It will convince you. You will be so humiliated that you will dig a hole in the backyard and live there for the rest of your life, or find a cave and just be an artistic hermit or whatever. So the ego loves to do this stuff when, again, when you are doing something new or you are up leveling to a new level. Why? It's a built-in safety mechanism. The problem is in this scenario, it's not keeping you safe; it's keeping you stagnant. And so when you realize that that voice that's telling you all that stuff, it's not actually you, that's just your ego. When you start to go, I don't actually really have any evidence of that, so that's not really coming from me. That's not my wise self speaking, my deep, wise self. That's not my creative self. That's not my kind of the higher version of me. And for people who are spiritual or religious, you know, that's not what the universe would tell me, what God would tell me. When you can separate the two, then you have a choice. You have a choice to listen to the ego or like a tantruming toddler, pull your attention away and shift it over to what is much more productive, which is, I'm going to go find evidence that this is doable, that it is safe for me to do it. Even if I get rejected once, twice, a hundred times, I can handle it. How do you know? Make a list of the 10 worst things you've ever handled in your life. If you've ever had an illness, injury, divorce, or death, you're good. That's all you need on your list. You're good. Okay? And once we give our brains evidence over and over and over, you begin to rewire what's connected in your brain, and you begin to think differently. When you think differently and you believe differently, you show up very differently. So that was a very long-winded answer, but hopefully that was helpful.

Super helpful. And yeah, I'll definitely be replaying that for my own use in the future. Let's talk about giving some folks resources. What can we start doing right now? Are there any books we can read or classes we can take? What do you recommend?

100%. So, number one, get yourself a copy of the Big Leap by Gay Hendricks. This is required reading for all of my clients. It was also required reading for my therapy clients. I have three copies that are destroyed. Highlighters, flags. This is a very small book. Do not underestimate the power that is inside of that book. And I'm going to encourage you to read it, put it on your shelf, and read it again next year. And the reason why is you will get very different things out of it from the different places you are on your journey. So it's a book that just kind of keeps giving back to you. So order that immediately on Amazon today. You'll read it in a weekend. And then I want you to sit with some of the things he asks you to think about or write about. That is a fantastic place to start without getting overwhelmed. Because remember, overwhelm. And overwhelm is like, for the most part, it's BS. You can be flooded sometimes in your head, you know, and especially if you have a neurodivergent brain, you can really, truly get flooded with emotion and information in a way that you're not functioning well. So I'm not minimizing that. But a lot of times when we say to ourselves like, I'm just too overwhelmed, what you're really saying is like, I can't deal with this. Yes, you can. Yes, you can. But we want to keep that minimized. This book is not going to put you into overwhelm. So that's really, really important and a great place to start. And again, I could probably give you 10 other things, but this book is so rich. I feel like if you do what's actually inside of it, you are going to start something and also wake up something in yourself that is going to feel maybe a little intimidating, but it's going to be matched with excitement, with optimism, with hope, with, hey, maybe I could just do this. Maybe I was born to do this. Maybe I was given this gift with the purpose of sharing it with other people. And it's not only permissible, but it's almost like a smack in the face of whoever or whatever gave you that gift to not charge for it. We don't give, give, give, and then say, I'm good, you enjoy your family eats, you do. But I'm, you know, I'm going to just go back to my cave or under my bridge. No, that is not the flow of give and receive. Give and receive. And over the years I have upped my prices and up my prices and up my prices. Do I get a lot of pushback? Yeah, from the wrong people. The right people–I was laughing about this yesterday–I made an offer to somebody and she emailed me back in seven minutes. Two words, I'm in. And that comes from doing the work in that book and remaining in my zone of genius at all times. At all times. I do not do work that is not in my zone of genius.

Tell us about your Imaging USA presentation, The Five-second Fix.

Oh, I'm so excited about this. I can't wait. So basically, when people come, as we were discussing, come to the "business world" with their art, their gift, their service or whatever, one of the first things you bump into and you will continue to have to address for all of your, you know, career or business life is money. Is money. We all come with conscious thoughts about money and subconscious beliefs about money. We pick those beliefs up from our communities, from our families from our friends. It's also now been shown through science that these, especially money traumas, so think of the Depression, slavery, immigration experiences, that those get coded into DNA, and passed down through generations. We get it through marketing messages, through politics, through religion. We're exposed to money stories all the time. And from age 0 to 6, you have no say whatsoever in which ones stick. And we think that, oh, I'm a grown adult, so I must have, like these things must have just up and left. They did not. And so I often say to people, a five-year-old is running part of your business because by five, you've picked up a lot of money stories. And so what I'm going to be doing is revealing to you in five seconds what the universal number one limiting money belief is, what it's connected to, what some of your other personal money beliefs are. And then I'm going to be teaching people very simple strategies to follow. And as long as you do them consistently, not perfectly, but consistently, you can take charge of your own brain and your own subconscious so that everything gets on board with your values, your goals, and your dreams.

Can't wait. It's going to be great. If we want to know more right away, where can we follow you online?

Love it. Thank you. I am most active on Instagram, and my brand-new website is coming out first week of January. It's just Kelleruda.com, brand new branding, brand new services and offers and you can always check me out there as well.

Great stuff. Loved the conversation. Kelly, thanks for coming on the show. I appreciate it.

Thanks for having me.

Thanks for tuning in to this week's episode of The Professional Photographer podcast. I'm already looking forward to the next episode that we'll have together, and I will find you a lot easier if you you hit the subscribe button. You see, when you hit the subscribe button, I show up in your feed. It's that easy. Also, if you click like and comment, we get the YouTube Triple Crown of goodness, and they love when that happens. And our team loves it because we can see what topics are really resonating with you. So what did Kelly say that really had you thinking? Leave us a comment and tell us. That way, we continue to to build this show in the way that you want it built. The other thing is, if you're not yet a member of Professional Photographers of America, you're missing out. PPA offers incredible resources like equipment insurance, top-notch education, and a supportive community of photographers ready to help you succeed. It's perfect for photographers who are serious about growing their business in a sustainable and profitable way. At PPA, you belong here. Discover more about membership at ppa.com. That's PPA.com. I'm Pat Miller, founder of the Small Business Owners Community and your host to the show. Thanks for joining me. We'll see you right here next time. Take care.