Shownotes
We've got a thought-provoking discussion lined up.
We're joined by our special guests, Stephen Walter and Brian Steel, to delve deep into the multifaceted issues surrounding law enforcement, community dynamics, and social justice in Columbus.
In this episode, we explore the controversial release of violent offenders and the broader implications for communities of color. We address the root causes of crime and the role of absent fathers, and discuss how societal support for intact families could make a difference. We dissect the challenges law enforcement officers face, from minor traffic violations to high-stakes pursuit policies, and touch on the impact of illegal migration on local crime.
We also scrutinize the effectiveness of civilian review boards, the role of the Department of Inspector General, and the need for accountability within the police force. Hear firsthand accounts of police-community interactions and the struggle to recruit new officers amidst growing public scrutiny. Plus, we'll evaluate initiatives like "Operation Safe Streets" and the impact of community-oriented policing methods such as foot and bike patrols.
Common Sense Moments
09:17 Police restraining suspect, but backstory not visible.
12:48 Why Ohio State black students might avoid law enforcement.
18:32 Man defuses potential shooting with personal connection.
24:52 Columbus Zoo embezzlement highlights oversight issues.
35:39 Children in non-traditional families at risk.
38:12 Rising non-marital births and social consequences discussed.
47:05 Columbus police pursuit policy and its limits.
50:57 The SOAP Project at The Arnold
01:00:20 Questioning the fairness of police actions and celebrity treatment.
01:04:51 Evaluating actions, legal consequences, and financial support.
Common Sense Takeaways
The episode emphasizes the need for a deeper examination of crime dynamics in Columbus.
The potential effects of illegal immigration on crime rates, discussing issues such as drug trafficking and human trafficking, as well as the challenges in tracking these incidents.
The "effectiveness and fairness" of the Civilian Review Board and the Department of Inspector General, raising concerns about training, bias, and the scope of their investigations.
Challenges in recruiting and retaining police officers are discussed, with a focus on the declining interest in the profession, the impact of public perception, and financial incentives like increased starting salaries.
The importance of community outreach and building relationships with residents is emphasized, with anecdotes illustrating positive interactions between officers and community members.
There is an examination of crime statistics and their interpretation.
Stephen Palmer is the Managing Partner for the law firm, Palmer Legal Defense. He has specialized almost exclusively in criminal defense for over 26 years. Steve is also a partner in Criminal Defense Consultants, a firm focused wholly on helping criminal defense attorneys design winning strategies for their clients.
Norm Murdock is an automobile racing driver and owner of a high-performance and restoration car parts company. He earned undergraduate degrees in literature and journalism and graduated with a Juris Doctor from the University of Cincinnati College of Law in 1985. He worked in the IT industry for two years before launching a career in government relations in Columbus, Ohio. Norm has assisted clients in the Transportation, Education, Healthcare, and Public Infrastructure sectors.
Brett Johnson is an award-winning podcast consultant and small business owner for nearly 10 years, leaving a long career in radio. He is passionate about helping small businesses tell their story through podcasts, and he believes podcasting is a great opportunity for different voices to speak and be heard.
Recorded at the 511 Studios, in the Brewery District in downtown Columbus, OH.
info@commonsenseohioshow.com
Copyright 2024 Common Sense Ohio
https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nd/4.0/
Transcripts
Welcome back to some Common Sense, Ohio. You like how I changed that up a little?
Norm Murdock [:Yes, sir.
Brian Steel [:Last day of May.
Brett Johnson [:I need a vacation just change things up in my head.
Norm Murdock [:So yeah.
Brett Johnson [:Brett's here. Norm's here. Steve's out, and we got a special guest. We'll intro, him. Actually, we're probably gonna have to come up with some kind of, colored jacket. Don't the guest shows have, like, you know, get the green jacket if you came back 5 times or something like that?
Brian Steel [:Yes. Exactly. Like, winning the masters.
Brett Johnson [:Exactly. Yeah. Something like that. As you as you know, Common Sense Ohio brought to you by Harper Plus CPA. You know, tax season is over, but for those guys, it's not they're still busy because as a business owner, and you know this too, Norm, you know, tax season is here and there, but we're still working on our business. We're still trying to figure out
Norm Murdock [:Right.
Brett Johnson [:What we owe, how to make money, and they're there for us. Anybody that's using them. So they're they're not, you know, on vacation for, you know, 6 months and then they come back for another 6 months to work on your taxes. They're there to help you build some business too. So, if you're needing some help and and, you know, now's the downtime to really take a look at what really happened last year for taxes or what may be coming up for you this year. I would encourage, you know, talk to talk to Glenn. Go to Harbor Plus CPA. They're sponsoring the podcast, and, they'll they'll it's it's worth the conversation because they'll do a good job for you.
Brian Steel [:So yeah.
Brett Johnson [:Yeah. So, I'll let you tee it up.
Brian Steel [:Well, this show follows hard on the heels of, former president Trump's conviction, yesterday, and we're not gonna talk about that because there's probably I think there's a lot. 4,000,000 other podcasts.
Brett Johnson [:There is and there's a lot of dust that still needs to be settled. I think it's better to maybe take a look at this in a rearview mirror about a week later.
Brian Steel [:But you talk but you talk about seeing Harper Plus about, business records.
Norm Murdock [:Mhmm.
Brian Steel [:Yeah.
Brett Johnson [:Yeah. Right. Yeah. Exactly.
Brian Steel [:Maybe president Trump could use their service.
Brett Johnson [:He could. Yeah. Possibly. Exactly.
Brian Steel [:And definitely picked a better attorney than Michael Hill. But anyway, so, Columbus Police Department, which, I did a little checking around. It's the largest police department in Ohio. It's part of Lodge 9's coverage area. We have the president of, the new president of Lodge 9 here with us today, Brian Steel, who's also newly promoted to lieutenant from sergeant. The last time he was here, he was a sergeant. Okay. And the the CPD is within the top 25 police departments in the entire country.
Brian Steel [:So pretty major stuff, and I'm not sure a lot of people in Columbus really know that. That we're it's the largest PD in Ohio and also, you know, one of the top 25. So, the the chief is a former, assistant chief from Detroit and has been on the job for a couple of years. So, Brian, has been a vice president. Welcome. Good morning.
Norm Murdock [:Good morning.
Brian Steel [:Thank you. Has been the vice president. 1 of is the only vice president or are there a couple of vice
Norm Murdock [:people? You have an executive vice president and a vice president, otherwise known as the 1st vice president and second vice president. I've served in both roles.
Brian Steel [:Okay. And and so you had, you know, been in that role. And my understanding is the former president resigned, for whatever reasons and that elevated you until there's an election.
Norm Murdock [:Yeah. We run every 2 years. I was the acting president for about 9 months while the current president was off injured and sick. He came back for a few months. His health led him to step down. The way our bylaws work, I automatically fulfill that role. We all run-in November. Every 2 years, there's an election.
Brian Steel [:Well, the last time you were here, Brian, we were talking about that you were in the midst of, contract negotiations with the city, at a Lima company, Memorial Day motorcycle ride. I talked to a, Columbus Police Department Sergeant and he he he said it's a killer contract, really good contract. And he mentioned a phrase that I'll need you to explain. And I think he said and I didn't ask him to explain it, but he said it's a 555 contract. What does that mean? What what is the what's he he seemed very pleased, thought it's a good contract, A great contract, he actually said. So if you could fill us in, what what what are the terms? Sure.
Norm Murdock [:So our collective bargaining agreements, are contract. They're every 3 years. Ours expired in December. When it expires, you still work off that old contract, unlike maybe some other organizations where you don't have a contract. We just honor the old one. A 555 was a 5% raise each year for 3 years. So a 15% raise over the life of the contract, 5, 5, and 5.
Brian Steel [:Oh, wow. Okay.
Brett Johnson [:You know, and that's good that, you know, you you can you feel good that's a great contract because you guys need a good recruiting tool.
Norm Murdock [:Yeah. This
Brett Johnson [:is 100%. You gotta be paid for a dangerous job.
Brian Steel [:The same story.
Brett Johnson [:Important job.
Brian Steel [:He said right around 300 slots are are open. Is that about right?
Norm Murdock [:Yeah. Last I knew it was about 280 officers down in Columbus. Okay.
Brett Johnson [:Wow. That's That's a lot of
Norm Murdock [:out of these.
Brian Steel [:If if you were fully manned and womaned, if if you had a fully staffed up, how how many officers would there be total?
Norm Murdock [:About 1996. So just under 2,000 is our authorized strength. There's been multiple studies done even in the last 20 years that we should have around 25, 26100. Wow. If you look at Cincinnati and Cleveland, there's more officers port per citizen in those cities than we are. Yet we're the largest.
Brett Johnson [:Okay.
Brian Steel [:Wow. And so you I'll say we because Columbus is the anchor even though I don't live in the city anymore, but, it's the anchor for Central Ohio. So we, meaning Columbus, are down 300 slots just to get to 2,000.
Norm Murdock [:Just just to get to what you should have. Approximately. Yes. Which is lot lower than we even should be.
Brian Steel [:Yeah. Right.
Brett Johnson [:So Well, let's talk about the the the scenario of why we're down. Is it is it the lack of of people wanting to go into this into this, you know, this business, quote, unquote. Yeah.
Norm Murdock [:That's exactly what it is. And that's something that maybe the the mayor and I disagree on respectfully. I came to this job on the heels of 911 just out of the Marine Corps. And, you know, you had to beat down the door to try to become a police fireman. I remember there was lines after 911. It was a calling and it still is a calling. I I stood in lines for hours just to sign up for a police test. Now you're you're lucky if you can get anybody.
Norm Murdock [:Last year, we, put 79 people on and we touted it as this is a great year, 79 boots on the street. We lost 81. This job is a 25 year job. You're 25, you get a pension. There's a deferred retirement option plan, which you could stay an extra 8 years. You can make a little bit more money, keep our senior, officers and supervisors here. More and more officers are electing not to do it. They're saying, look, I got my 25.
Norm Murdock [:I'm just gonna, you know, cut ties now. It's been a great career. I'm gonna move on. We never saw that before.
Brian Steel [:Wow. No kidding. Yeah. So, one of the fellows sitting in here, was a sergeant for 43 years?
Stephen Walter [:Well, I served, 40 years, 5 months, and 6 days. 36 of which were as a sergeant. Wow.
Norm Murdock [:A legendary sergeant. Legendaries. You should have added. Legendary sergeant.
Brian Steel [:The goat is what I hear
Brett Johnson [:you. Well
Brian Steel [:That's but by the way, that's that's sergeant in the police, parlance. Sergeant Stephen Walter, master sergeant retired USMC.
Brett Johnson [:Yeah. And thinking about you coming in today, I was thinking about these these stupid videos that pop up and I'm sure greats on YouTube of just these hidden phone camera popping the cops when they come up for a ticket or something. It's just that just the engagement stuff and it's like that cannot help. That cannot because it's just most of them are pushed, you know, a black eye for the police officer. That's what the the video recording is intended to do. They can't help.
Norm Murdock [:That's exactly what it's intended to do. The officers all wear cameras, majority at least. At least, Columbus, we have cameras. So you could stand there with a camera. You could have 15 cameras. I couldn't care. It doesn't change how I'm gonna act. It's just I have a camera on the way.
Brett Johnson [:Change of who's getting recorded. Exactly.
Norm Murdock [:It's just trying to trying to bait you. That's all it is. And you just gotta be careful and just know that, listen, this is business, and I'm not here to debate you.
Brett Johnson [:That's not all it is. It turns into a debate. It just it it's I don't know why I get pulled into those sometimes, but I guess it's just that how stupid can this person be in the driver's seat poking the bear. It's like, dude, if you did something wrong, talk it out. Maybe the officer will actually get listen. Well I mean, you know
Norm Murdock [:I mean
Brian Steel [:Well, does a does a violent you know, when when somebody's resisting arrest Yeah. Right? That never looks pretty.
Brett Johnson [:Oh my god. No.
Brian Steel [:And and and the police officers need to use overwhelming force equal to the need to restrain the person safely. And so that never looks great.
Brett Johnson [:No.
Brian Steel [:Right? You know, because you got a you got a guy in black with a a gun in his holster and he's he's laying on top of some guys flailing around. And it it's not a pretty scene. And it and it it it and if that's all you see out of the event, you don't see any of the lead up to it. Mhmm. Like he punched out his wife and threatened to, you know, go get the machete off the wall and chop her up. You don't you don't see that in the video. You just see the police officer restraining this guy. You're trying to put him in cuffs, and it looks like he's roughening him up.
Brian Steel [:Oh, that's not fair. Well, no. You you know, like, you don't want it to be fair. You want it to be as peaceful as possible. And if the guy's resisting, they need to use force.
Brett Johnson [:Yeah. Yeah.
Norm Murdock [:Often, you'll see a video and they'll the there'll be 5 officers subduing a guy. And usually, someone will say, why did it take 5 officers? It takes 5 officers to safely subdue him. I could subdue you right now no matter how big you are by taking the my flashlight and bashing off the bridge of your face. But that's not what we wanna do. Right. So it takes 5, 6, 7 officers to to control you without injuring you. And in term I gotta tell the story of getting debated. Sometimes my mouth gets the best of me.
Norm Murdock [:I I had a a young OSU kid come up to me, overweight kid. And the first thing he said to me I'm at UDF, and I'm a human at the end of the day. He said, what do you hear? You hear eating donuts? You like donuts, cop? And I said, yeah. Well, number 1, I love donuts. I said I said, number 2, I'm 6 2250 and work out almost every day. Have you looked at a mirror, kid? He did not like that, astronaut supervisor. But, you know, hey, You you play a man's game. You pay a man's price,
Brett Johnson [:sergeant. Exactly. Exactly.
Brian Steel [:So for recruitment purposes, will the starting salary be a little higher under this contract?
Norm Murdock [:It it will be higher, but here's what's important. Nobody took this job for the money. No one joined the marine corps for the money.
Brian Steel [:Oh, that's for sure.
Norm Murdock [:We we did this because we believe in it. When people say thank you for your service, my answer is always my reply is you are worth it. That's why we took this job. Now we have mortgages to pay. We have kids' bikes we have to pay for. I have 5 children, which is who we talked about that today. My my day was a little, hard start with them. But, anyway, we still have to pay those things.
Norm Murdock [:So having a fair wage and compensation package does help retain. It does help recruit.
Brett Johnson [:Yeah. So let's look at that. Well,
Brian Steel [:I'm I'm just getting over 5 kids.
Brett Johnson [:I know exactly.
Brian Steel [:Because I know what our grocery bill was with 2 boys. I can't imagine 5 kids. Exactly.
Brett Johnson [:Oh my god. So so if somebody's caught this is almost like a little plug to help, you know, recruit. But let's say somebody's thinking about this. What what are what's going in their head about, yeah, this is what I should do? The I this is my calling, but I don't it it's almost like priesthood. If you think about it
Norm Murdock [:Oh, yeah.
Brian Steel [:You know? Right.
Brett Johnson [:It's like, I get this calling, but I don't know what it means. You know, if you know what I mean?
Norm Murdock [:The the difference is and and there's a saying, we'll all we'll all die for this job, but we're not gonna go to prison for this job. We join knowing there is a chance you might not you may go on a run and never come home. After 2020 and the the the the villain the officers being vilified, it became a trend now to try to decide. 1, you might be put in prison for. The other one, hey, you can make just as much money and have an easier life. It's hard to get recruits. It's even harder to get minority recruits in the city of Columbus. Think about this.
Norm Murdock [:If if you're a young black kid coming out of Ohio State and you wanna go in law enforcement, are you gonna come to a city where where the mayor and elected officials said we're a racist out of control police department? Even though we were investigated and found that there was no evidence of racism. Yeah. At that time, our mayor, and again, respectfully disagree, his answer was, well, I'm disappointed with the findings. Yeah. Think about what that means. Would you go work for Huntington Bank if the CEO of Huntington claimed it was a racist organization? You would not bank there. You would not work there. We have a problem.
Norm Murdock [:We have scar tissue. We're gonna get past that because we have to. I had said in 2020, 2021, it is gonna take 10 years nationwide for this this profession to come back.
Brian Steel [:I I totally agree with that. Everything you said I remember when, the chief of police here was, chief Jackson. And incredibly enough, the US Department of Justice accused him of being a racist.
Brett Johnson [:Oh, yeah. I remember that. That's right.
Brian Steel [:Wait a minute. He's a black career police officer from Columbus, come up through the ranks, and he doesn't like black people. What what what what are you talking about? Right? And it's, it's because he wanted to use the brace blind scores on the testing, you know, for for entry into the profession. He's like, I don't care purple, green, black, white, doesn't matter. You know. It a score of this is what's needed to advance yourself and somehow that was racist. So Yeah.
Brett Johnson [:And I've forgotten about that. I'm like Yeah.
Brian Steel [:And so so so, Brian, if I understand, the DOJ has basically basically investigated the Columbus Police Department, like, twice in the last 30 years
Norm Murdock [:or so. They they were the DOJ cops office, which is a different branch of the DOJ, but it's the DOJ. They came in and did an investigation. Baker Hostetler is a a law firm, did an investigation, something we call the, the the Carter report, Stewart Carter and John Glenn University. They did a report on our on our findings, the aftermath of 2020 and the riots. There are some procedural things we could do better, which is why I believe in the word reform. Reform is not taking what you do and throwing out. It's taking what you do and finding better ways to do it.
Norm Murdock [:Yeah. We have always been a professional outstanding police department. We will continue to be one if there's areas to approve. It everything modifies itself. I I use the iPhone. When Steve Jobs came out, we're gonna be a little bit more of a problem. Yeah. And
Brett Johnson [:It it everything modifies itself.
Norm Murdock [:I I use the iPhone. When Steve Jobs came out with this iPhone, the first one, it was the most amazing thing that ever was. He didn't stop there. Right.
Stephen Walter [:Right. That's right. He just
Norm Murdock [:continues to to build off of his company. And that's what we wanna do in policing and the police union. Yeah.
Brian Steel [:So, there are there are a couple of initiatives that I was reading about this, and I don't know if it's if it's smart or not, but, the, I guess, Ginther and the the chief, have this operation, Safe Streets, where they're going to, according to the publicity, put more officers on foot and bikes in hot spot neighborhoods. Is that a good idea?
Norm Murdock [:We've had this for a while. This is nothing new. They had different names. When I came on, it was the summer strike force, and, mayor Ginther at the time was the safety chair of city council. The summer strike force at the time, think of that name. We would never use, a hurt Field's name. Gonna
Brett Johnson [:say that name. It's not the greatest. Yeah.
Norm Murdock [:Yeah. We don't use that. But at that time, he's on record to say the summer strike force was the best bang for taxpayer bucks. And I was on that. And we went out to high crime neighborhoods. And if you were a violent offender carrying an illegal gun looking to rob somebody, we were going to find you. We drove around in a wolf pack, and we were hunting you down and removing you from that neighborhood. Because I don't care if you live in Dublin or you live in the near east side.
Norm Murdock [:You you have the right to go out to your mailbox and not be robbed. You should be able to go to the store. Right? Unmolested by any criminal. Mhmm. So, this is nothing new. It's kinda changed over the years. They changed names. It became more of a listen.
Norm Murdock [:I'm not the generation that that that does the TikTok dances and stuff, and and it seems more and more that's what we see cops do. And I I know while I appreciate their dance moves, that's not what I do. I'm old school. I want to remove violent offenders from neighborhoods. Yeah. But at least we're doing something. Mhmm.
Brian Steel [:Yeah. You know, the thing now this is a civilian reaction. The only thing I so okay. On foot with and and on bicycles. But I'm just thinking, okay. So a a Dodge Charger with thugs and it pulls up and sprays bullets, you know, at an elementary school and the the nearest police only have their feet and bicycles.
Norm Murdock [:The bicycle patrol, the foot patrol, it's great for community engagement. People like to see the officers out there. It makes them feel a little more safe. But to your point, if you're gonna do true policing, you need a few officers, armed because we are outgunned many times. And, they need to have a car too, which they will. But, again, it's become more of a community relations type, team than it has a strict enforcement team, although there is an enforcement component.
Brian Steel [:Yeah. You know, in my little town, there was I I don't know if I told this story before, but I think it's a great story. So, you know, they have a curfew in my little town. And, or they did during COVID. I don't know if it still stands. But at any rate, some people heard me heard basketball, you know, bouncing, you know, at 1 in the morning or whatever. And one of the, one of the village, police officers was dispatched. And I guess, you know, like, he he he had he had, you know, he could get very formal about this.
Brian Steel [:And what he decided to do was shoot up shoot hoops with them for, like, 15 minutes and then say, hey, guys. It's late. Why don't we all go home? You know? And so I like this foot bicycle. I love this infusion into the neighborhood. I think Steven, our our our silent guest over here, but he told a story about where a guy, where he he took a gun off of a guy. And because that guy had a relationship with with, sergeant Walter previously, had seen him in the neighborhood, his regular beat, he said, well well, sergeant, I would never shoot you because I know you. Like like, we we have this, bond even though this guy had had just shot somebody else. He was not gonna shoot somebody that he knew that he kinda considered a friendly buddy in the neighborhood, you know, may have saved his life.
Brian Steel [:Yeah.
Norm Murdock [:And that's the relationships that that you built with him. And then and at the end of the day, if he individuals and I'm talking to you, man. How many individuals did we, let smoke a cigarette before they go to jail? Did we run let smoke a cigarette before they go to jail? Did we run through Wendy's and bought them a cheeseburger before they went to jail? And when the cuffs were on, it it was just business at that point. And and, yeah, it might be somebody, you know, crazy Larry down the street that I've taken to jail 15 times. And whenever he sees me, hello, Brian. How are you? Great. Hope you got the help you need. That's the majority of the interactions with these beat cops in these neighborhoods.
Norm Murdock [:That that's truly how it is 99% of the time, but normal normal individuals don't know that or we don't show that.
Brian Steel [:Yeah. And I I imagine that's also a great way to get tips about what's going on in the neighborhood.
Norm Murdock [:100%. You
Brian Steel [:know, Billy down the street. Hey, I I think he's got a gun and he's 14 years old. And you think that there's a way maybe you can, you know, do something about that. I mean, that kind of intel at the at the where the rubber meets the road. I guess getting out of the Cruisers and getting on your feet and riding a bike, it might really help, you know, prevent things as well.
Norm Murdock [:That is the good thing about the foot patrols and the bikes. And sometimes in a cruiser where we triage runs, the average officer in a cruiser, if you're asking why isn't he stopping and getting out and talking to the kids on the corner, he's going from call to call to call. It'd be like an ER nurse.
Brian Steel [:Okay.
Norm Murdock [:I was very, very fortunate when I started. I learned. I learned I worked I worked great areas and I learned from some amazing police officers who told me, hey, at 2 in the morning, the prostitute on the corner, even though you don't condone what she does, it's illegal, stop and ask her if she's okay. Yeah. And I'd pull up. Are you okay? You being safe? If you need anything, call me. Yeah. And to some, they would think, well, that's strange, but they're they're still part of your community.
Norm Murdock [:Again, they might be doing something that's illegal, but check on them.
Brett Johnson [:They could be human trafficked.
Norm Murdock [:And they will also tell you where the drug house is. So, anyway, it's a two way street. Yeah. It's all about relationship.
Brett Johnson [:Because most of those women and men don't wanna be in that position.
Norm Murdock [:Yeah. There there's a good group that don't wanna be in. There's some that are simply out there because they have an addiction that that's gripping them, and and then maybe you can get them to help.
Brett Johnson [:Yeah. Exactly.
Stephen Walter [:And it's always important just not to say what what a person is based on what a person does.
Norm Murdock [:Absolutely. Good point. Yep.
Brett Johnson [:Yeah.
Brian Steel [:That's a great point. Yep. Tell me about in the contract, there was a serious, bit of negotiation regarding this. I I'm not sure I'm gonna say it right. Either citizen or civilian review board. And, mayor Guenther wanted them to have power to actually fire, an officer instead of going through the normal, process of, you know, up through the chief and all that stuff.
Norm Murdock [:On this current contract, there was no there was no, agreement or any kind of a solidified ratified contract regarding civilian review board. The last one there was. But, yeah, the civilian review board is, is a team of civilians that review cases from the department inspector general, and they make recommendations, simply a recommendation to the chief. Okay. I don't know if you've ever watched a civilian review board. If you want, if you wanna watch a kangaroo court, go ahead. I have zero faith in the civilian review board. I think it's agenda based.
Norm Murdock [:Some of the decisions that are coming out of there are just completely ridiculous. There's a clear bias on that board. Now there's Spectre in general, I do have faith in. I think they are doing the best they can. They're they're they're trying the best they can to be fact based. If there's cases that we feel that they have a bias or not fact based, that's the part of the job as a police union to to call them out and try to work through them.
Brian Steel [:Brian, is the inspector general under the city attorney department or who does he or she work for?
Norm Murdock [:It's it's a she. She's from Detroit. She was a former Detroit, IA sergeant and she or IA inspector. I can't remember her title. She is independent Oh. In theory.
Brian Steel [:Okay. But works for the Department of Public Safety?
Norm Murdock [:She is the Department of Inspector General is an independent it's an independent entity.
Brian Steel [:Okay. So she would investigate any city employee, a fireman, whatever.
Norm Murdock [:Well, this is where it gets interesting and I'm glad you brought it up. Inspector generals are nothing new. In about 99% of the cities, the inspector general investigates all city employees, all elected officials, and all contractors. Oh. Here in Columbus, it's just narrowed down to simply police department. That is it. Wow. I welcome the inspector general to expand to investigate all contractors, all city employees, and all elected officials.
Brian Steel [:Here's what's interesting
Norm Murdock [:too. It should
Brian Steel [:be like should be like that.
Norm Murdock [:Yeah. When we used internal affairs, our internal affairs cleared an officer about 91% of the time. So a 100 complaints come in. About 91% of the time, the officer's cleared of no wrongdoing. It was touted that officers can't investigate officers. We need a third party to come in here, be fair because, like, quote, unquote, cops cover for each other is what they're saying. So we spent 1,000,000 of taxpayer dollars. We brought an inspector general.
Norm Murdock [:Her report that was released not publicly yet, which I I find that odd or maybe not, they clear officers about 90% of the times. So you had about a 1% difference. Where I'm getting with that is it shows that majority of the times our officers get it right. When they get it wrong, let's hold them accountable, and we could either train them, discipline them, or if it's egregious, so egregious, you can't work here, that's okay too.
Brian Steel [:Yeah. I mean, hey, other departments now now the Columbus Zoo is not part of the city of Columbus, but I mean, it's a good example of public officials, that, you know, there should be an inspector general. There should be auditors. We were just talking on last week's show about the purchasing manager at the Columbus Zoo had embezzled $2,300,000 You know, like, where is the Franklin County or Delaware County inspector general in that situation? Because that went on I think they alleged it went on for, like, a decade. I mean, $2,300,000 to be able to embezzle that and and and, you know, more or less get away with it for a decade before somebody finds out about it. Yeah. So that that kind of inures to your point, Brian, about, you know, hey, like, if you're gonna have that office, why not expand it to all the operations within the city? It doesn't make any sense. Yeah.
Brian Steel [:I mean, I know Ohio has an inspector general's office and it covers the politicians for sure because I used to be a lobbyist. We had to turn in quarterly reports about if I bought if you were a state representative, Brian, and I bought you a sandwich, I had to report that. And not only did I, as a lobbyist, have to report it, but you, as a public official, had to report that. And if the two reports didn't match, somebody's in trouble. Right.
Norm Murdock [:Right.
Brett Johnson [:Yeah. So you mentioned the Civilian Review Board. Can it work if it's done right? I mean, it sounds like a good idea.
Norm Murdock [:I think if you had the right people that were fair, firm, and impartial, then it absolutely can work. Okay. But when you have individuals that clearly have a bias or have no training or no understanding, again, the scenario I used, you know, why did it take 5 or 6 officers to to do him?
Brian Steel [:And if
Norm Murdock [:they're not willing to kinda listen and be guided, then what's the point of it?
Brian Steel [:Okay. Brian, are they're probably appointed. Right? Aren't they political appointees?
Norm Murdock [:They're they're all political appointees. Okay.
Brett Johnson [:Which I never liked either. Yeah. The other scenarios.
Brian Steel [:You can load it to his point. Load it up. You can load ups Yeah. Political appointments that are way to load up Right. People who think the way you do if you're the mayor. Yeah. You're right. And so they're going to carry out your agenda by explaining
Brett Johnson [:And easily a thank you job for helping me get into office. Right. I'm gonna yeah. Help me get in the office. I'll put you on the civilian review.
Brian Steel [:And and we just went through, you know, what, several years of defund the police as if that is a punishment to the police. Right? You're punishing your community when you defund the police. I understand. And now they're all trying to, you know, restore the funding to the police like the the mayor in Portland. Right? All of a sudden, they want the streets in Portland, you know, cleared of these encampments of homeless and drug users and all this stuff. And it's like, yeah. Because the conventions aren't coming to town.
Stephen Walter [:Well, given the makeup of the review board, it makes me wonder if I could get on the Ohio State University brain surgery review team because I know nothing about that either.
Brian Steel [:Right. Yeah. It's like Wikipedia. You could write an article for the brain surgery definition in Wikipedia having not been a brain surgeon. But, you know, that yeah. So it's just random people.
Stephen Walter [:Now maybe it's stretching the analogy a bit, but I often quip. I wonder how many people on the review board have ever been in the front seat of a police car.
Brian Steel [:When I was in law school, we had to do ride alongs with the Cincinnati police, and it was eye opening. And I worked at a law office, and we had retail criminal defendants and business dispute cases and all kinds of stuff. So I thought I knew something. Oh my god. Basically, 90% of the calls that night so I did a night shift, like, went in at, I don't know, 10, got out at 8 in the morning, whatever. And it was 90% domestic calls, and it was scary as hell. And this is back, like, you know, in the eighties. Far more dangerous now, I think.
Brian Steel [:I think people are on on more aggressive drugs now, and I think they have more problems and of, you know, the the this social media hate of law enforcement has been amped up. I cannot imagine well, Well, we had 2 Westerville police who responded to a domestic and and and were killed. I mean, the guy opened the door, shot him, like, no discussion. Bam. Bam. 2 guys who were showing up to resolve something between a guy and his girlfriend or his wife or whatever was. Yeah. Officer Morelli and
Norm Murdock [:And Eric Eric Jorian.
Brian Steel [:Thank you.
Norm Murdock [:We statistically, we are having more officers are shot than any time in history. But less officers are dying. And the reason is, say, the eighties. In the eighties, it was not as many officers would wear their vest. Now officers all wear their vest. 99% officers have their safety equipment on. And if you look in Columbus, we have major trauma hospitals who let's be frank. The hospitals got very good after Iraq.
Norm Murdock [:Right? They these guys learned the best practices and we're saving. Not only officers, we're saving in general. So when you don't always look at homicides, look at felonious assaults. If you have a say you have a 100 homicides in Columbus, but 1500 shootings. Right? We save those who are being shot. In Columbus, if you get shot, you have officers that are gonna respond. We are we are now rendering first aid. We are now putting tourniquets on, and you have paramedics, see if the actual paramedics are gonna respond within minutes.
Norm Murdock [:And you have level 1 hospitals, 3 major ones. If you get shot, say, in Cleveland or, Birmingham, you'll have an EMS service. No knock to our brothers and sisters' EMS. They don't have the same level of training as a paramedic, and you may not have a regional hospital or you might have a regional hospital, not a city trauma, and you might have to air vac them there, which, obviously, the longer you wait, you get outside the golden hour, most likely to die. So look at Flonius assaults, not so much the actual homicides, and then you could determine the violence in your community.
Brian Steel [:Why why is, what what's your theory? Why, homicides? I think, if if this article is correct, from the New York Times, if if homicides, are down in Columbus versus, say, 2022 when it peaked, I think 207 homicides. And then last year, I think it was maybe, what, like, one 25 or something. And now this year, we're like, last year, we at this time of the year, I think the article there, if it's accurate, said there were 71 homicides. And this year, it's it's not near that number. What what's your theory?
Norm Murdock [:So we don't know exactly. But the great thing with stats is if you look in the last 5 years, it goes up, up, up, drops a tick, and you're like, oh, great. We're down.
Brian Steel [:Yeah.
Norm Murdock [:And then it goes up. Take your gas. Gases went up major in the last 20 years. When it drops a couple years, l elect officials clap their hands. Look what we did. It's still continuing to climb. Yeah. When I came on in the early 2000, we might have had 70, 80 homicides.
Norm Murdock [:So to now to say, hey, 140 is not too bad. It's lower than 160. We're doing a good job. Yeah. I I I don't think so. I think the major differences now is individuals are not being held accountable. We're doing our job. We're putting the handcuffs on violent offenders, but they're getting kicked right back out.
Norm Murdock [:It is not uncommon. Read the paper. You see somebody commit a rape, a robbery, a shooting, and get an ankle bracelet and a piece of paper that says, hey, you're released. Please don't rape, rob, or shoot anybody again. You gotta hold these individuals accountable. Keep them locked up.
Brett Johnson [:And we also have to take into consideration too the the population surge in Columbus and Franklin County. Just our area. So per capita, that number is gonna continue to rise. I mean, if if it's a if it's a true percentage of people who live here, what homicide percentage is, whatever it is, that's gonna it's gonna organically raise any way to a certain degree. Right?
Brian Steel [:So you're saying like Yeah. If the population doubles, it would not be surprising if crime stats doubled.
Brett Johnson [:Probably. Probably. But there are other to me but we have to fight that though still. I'm not saying it's a given. Well, it's always gonna go up, that sort of thing, but we have to kinda consider that. We got more people here.
Brian Steel [:That is a factor.
Brett Johnson [:Yeah.
Norm Murdock [:So I wanna talk some facts right now. And you you guys are you're gonna need to get uncomfortable there. Yeah. What I'm gonna say makes people uncomfortable, but this is the truth. If you look at about 90% of the victims of crime, a violent crime in Columbus are people of color. About 75% of the suspects of violent crimes are people of color. Overwhelming majority of people of color are being are are being killed or assaulted by violence. The overwhelming majority of suspects are people of color, but the overwhelming majority of people of color do not commit crimes.
Norm Murdock [:We have to look at that, focus on that, and find out why. Why is this happening? But nobody wants to talk about that. Surely, elected officials don't wanna address that as a podium. Because why? It makes you uncomfortable to talk about, but it's the truth. Now let's find out why that is. Is is it because of racism? Is it because of socioeconomic status and and a a historic race in this country? We could talk about all that stuff. Yeah. But we have to identify the problem first before we start talking about solutions.
Stephen Walter [:Yeah. That Just mhmm. Nana Watson isn't gonna help you.
Norm Murdock [:There there there is nobody coming up here and really talking about this.
Brett Johnson [:Yeah.
Norm Murdock [:And again, when I say it, it kinda makes some people pull back like, woah. And the media won't report it.
Brett Johnson [:Well, and it it it it's I think it it's analogous to, okay, kids having problems at school. It's probably the same type. It's people of color, people of color. But if we don't wanna address the problem the kids having at school, then maybe it's at home. It's a broken home or both parents work, and they're just not home to help out. So but so you don't wanna poke the voter. Let's put it that way. But but but it's always the teacher's fault.
Brett Johnson [:Well, I do. It's not because if they don't have a home to go to to get their homework done, the teacher is not gonna go home with them to it's it's it's analogous to that. We don't wanna address the true problems of why education may be failing our kids. It's not it's not necessarily teachers.
Brian Steel [:Well, Brian
Brett Johnson [:It could be the home.
Brian Steel [:Brian brings up an excellent fact. There have been a lot of books and a lot of a lot of, a lot of brown and black, leaders in the community have addressed this and it makes them very unpopular. You know, whether it was back in the day Bill Cosby or Jesse Jackson talking about absent fathers
Brett Johnson [:Yeah.
Brian Steel [:In in these communities and the number of of children being born outside of traditional families where, you know, their brother, their sister has a different dad, and none of their dads are around. And mom is in charge of 2 or 3 kids and she's doing her thing, working or whatever she's doing. And if this New York Times article, basically, 90% of the incidents that this, journalist talks about are children, like 13, 15, 14 year old children, using guns, and killing other children. To Brian's point, the victims are their friends or other kids in the neighborhood, whether it's accidental or intentional shooting. And there was one quote in there that made my hair stand up where the kid talks or the mother talks, the mothers of murdered children, which is an organization in Columbus. That lady talked about how it is to a an urban child. There's this mindset that a gun gives you manhood. That having a gun if you're 13, 14 and you're the oldest male in the household, hey.
Brian Steel [:I'm gonna look out for my household, you know, and I'm gonna defend our house, and I and I'm gonna go get a gun. She says you can get a gun on the street in Columbus for $50 is is a typical price. I don't know if that's accurate or not. But a kid could come up with $50 and then think he's now the dad figure. Right? Because dad's missing. He doesn't have a dad. And that's got to be one of the biggest factors is this. I saw where Columbus is spending this summer, $21,000,000 on summer youth programs.
Brian Steel [:And I would think most of that money would not need to be spent if if we had nuclear families and fathers in the house saying, hey, kid. You can't have a gun. Right? You know, you're not and you're not gonna go out there gang banging.
Brett Johnson [:Yeah.
Brian Steel [:You know, but dads aren't around. And so something has happened in the country historically. And like Brian said, people don't wanna talk about those kinds of issues. Right. Yeah. Because because it starts to sound like you're blaming people Blaming the victim. Of of well, and you're also picking out, a race or picking out a color. More and more white girls are having babies out of wedlock too.
Brian Steel [:I mean, it has exponentially risen almost to the point that more births are outside of marriage than within marriage. And and and so there's gotta be consequences for how these kids are being raised and why they act up at school, why they act up out on the street. It's a larger social question. And I think I think Brian nailed it. But, like, who's who's gonna lead us through that discussion? I was actually hoping I don't wanna get political, but I was actually hoping, like, president Obama would really have driven that issue because there's a guy, half white, half black, he could have bridged a lot of this discussion, frankly, with some really good, hard, tough talks and that would've that was that was an opportunity missed.
Brett Johnson [:Yeah. Well, he still he still around. Yeah. He's still around.
Brian Steel [:I wish I wish somebody of
Brett Johnson [:that stature Right. Right.
Brian Steel [:Would grab this issue
Brett Johnson [:And kind of
Brian Steel [:and promote familyhood. And our society needs to, step up and and support families, you know. Like, make whatever the taxes are, make it so that an inner city family decides to stay together. Give them incentives under whatever the welfare laws are and how how expenditures you know, how much money they can get and all, you know, section 8 and all the other ways we support, people on welfare, make it so intact families get more money than families that are broken.
Norm Murdock [:And and that's the problem. Failed failed policies out of the sixties. But before the 19 sixties, the divorce rate of a a black family or black husband or wife was lower than a white family.
Brian Steel [:Yes.
Norm Murdock [:We incentivize the single father system. Look, I I didn't just make this up full disclosure. Number 1, I'm a proud member of the n double a c p. I've worked challenged community of color my whole career, and I I am part of that community, and I want the best for my community. The second part, 2020, I'm standing and broad and high, and I'm being pelted with rocks and bottles and, bottles of urine for a video I saw, 500 miles away that I was equally as disturbed. So I went back to school. I'm a I'm a believer of lifelong learning. I went back to school and I went and got a certificate in black studies.
Norm Murdock [:And, I because the reason I did it, I thought maybe there's some stuff I wasn't taught in history and there was some stuff that I was not taught in history. So when I start openly talking about this and just because I'm a white male, it's like, well, you know, you can't say that you're wrong. And I say, hey. This is just what I read in books. So if you wanna talk about the black eye and some racism in policing at at a micro level, let's talk about it. But then let's go on a macro level and talk about racism in banking, racism in education, racism in real estate. And that's where individuals were, like, well, hold on. I'm a realtor.
Norm Murdock [:I don't I'm not racist.
Brett Johnson [:Well, I'm not either of mine. Right.
Norm Murdock [:Or hold on. I'm a nurse. I'm not racist. Well, I know you're not, but let's talk about your profession.
Brett Johnson [:Yeah.
Norm Murdock [:It changes the game a little bit.
Brett Johnson [:Yeah.
Brian Steel [:Yeah. It does. Yeah. Yeah. I I took, black studies at, University of Cincinnati for the same kind of same reasons as you. I I felt like, that was an area where I I had some ignorance and I wanted to I wanted to learn. I'll never forget the professor walked in one day and she she could clearly make out that, okay, I got a guy back there kind of looks Mediterranean. He's a little bit brown, but I'm gonna she went ahead and said, all white people are racist because they're white.
Brian Steel [:And I I raised my hand and, I don't know. Maybe I started a little discussion. I said, I gotta tell you. I get I the house I live in, I got black neighbors on both sides. We're really tight. We're real friends. We watch out for each other's house to make sure we don't get robbed. And in my house, my parents never use the n word.
Brian Steel [:And I'm not bragging. They just never did. And if one of us would were to use the n word, my mom and my dad woulda had a cow. So I'm just saying. In in fact, being a little dark, I got called the n word, you know. You know, there's there's that there's that phrase that they use with, Arab kids, a sand n word.
Brett Johnson [:Right? Okay.
Brian Steel [:I got called that. Right? And I punched so, you know, I mean, I got I got on the ground and did, you know, roll around and punch people for for calling me that. But the point is that the professor shouldn't have said something like that. Right? Any more than, you know, I would, you know, characterize, you know, all black people are this or all white people are that. That's ridiculous. And those those are the barriers that, like, prevent us from really getting down to a discussion. Sure. Yeah.
Brian Steel [:And I I it's a shame that it's become like that. Like, the whole BLM, Black Lives Matter, of course they matter. Right? And so do all the other lives. And and somehow that became racist just to simply point out. I spray painted my box truck when I drove through Ferguson. Cops' lives matter. And, Patrick and I drove right through the middle of Ferguson with that on our box truck and we're just like, hey, that's a reality. We all matter.
Brian Steel [:And why can't why can't we say that? That's not that's not denigrating anybody. That's just saying we all matter and, you know, end of speech.
Norm Murdock [:You you had I I teach a class at a local high school. I do it a couple times semester and, couple things I say, and I've talked to the president NAACP about this. I said, you know, listen, black lives matter absolutely. I said, sometimes I wish they didn't. And they would always look at me and say, what? I said, well, then maybe I'd get a good night's sleep because I can't tell you and you too sergeant how many children of color we stood over their bodies, gunned down. Fair. So maybe if they didn't matter, you know, we could put those demons to rest and and actually dream at night instead of nightmares. The second part, I'll ask the kids raise your hand if black lives matter.
Norm Murdock [:I raise my hand. I say, when when they're killed by the police, did they matter? Yes. How about when killed by another person of color? Still matter? How about how about a black life in utero? Keep your hand up if that matters. Right. And it just kinda opens it up. So when you say BLM, it is not just when the police shoots you. It's the 90% of our victims who are most likely killed by another person of color. They all matter.
Brian Steel [:Mhmm. The sick thing about that Ferguson event also is all the black businesses that were burned down.
Brett Johnson [:Yeah. It's like, you know, what Right.
Brian Steel [:You know, and and black officers that work for the city of Ferguson. Like, what you're saying they are are part of the problem? I mean, none of it makes any sense to me. It's it's when people act irrationally. And, of course, that officer was completely acquitted or or didn't even go to trial. That officer was cleared.
Brett Johnson [:Yeah.
Brian Steel [:Yeah. Then he left. Yeah. He left because his life was
Brett Johnson [:in Right.
Brian Steel [:Jeopardy, which is terrible.
Brett Johnson [:Yeah.
Brian Steel [:A terrible outcome. So let me ask another question. This comes again that sounds like I'm from Cincinnati, which I am. But I was reading down there that the, the chief put out a policy, unbelievable to me, that he or she I don't know who their chief is, but the chief put out a policy apparently that the Cincinnati PD wasn't to pull people over on the on the roads for, common traffic crimes. And the the explanation is that presents an opportunity for bad interaction between the police and the citizens. I'm like, yeah. But that also prevents traffic laws for being enforced. So I don't know what that's all about, but some sort of order to reduce the amount of pullovers by cruisers.
Brian Steel [:I I I but police cruisers. I don't understand that. Where where do we stand in Central Ohio on traffic law enforcement? People using cell phones while they're, you know, gabbing or texting, you know, without their hands on the wheel. All all sorts of ways that they need to be pulled over.
Norm Murdock [:So the these are all these are all laws. And I always tell, citizens, if you don't like the laws, then do about it. Go lobby your legislators, try to get them changed. And around 2020, we heard talk about this. I believe the city attorney at the time was kinda kicking around. Let's try to basically decide what we should be stopping for, should not be stopping for. At the end of the day, you're a law enforcement officer and your job is to is to enforce violations of the law. Whether you and I might think a taillight out is, a big deal or not, it's a violation of law.
Norm Murdock [:Now, I'm not saying you have to cite everybody for it, but that's kind of their job. Alright? I believe Timothy McVeigh was stopped. The Oklahoma bomber. Yeah. Yeah. He was pulled over because he had a taillight out or he had a license plate.
Stephen Walter [:Day license plate falling out from the
Norm Murdock [:That's right.
Brian Steel [:Yeah. Minor misdemeanor.
Norm Murdock [:A simple simple traffic stop. Look what that led to.
Brian Steel [:Look what that led to. Right?
Norm Murdock [:Again, that that's just a policy that some chief trying to make a name for herself, but it's kind of ridiculous. Are are are Columbus police allowed to do, hot pursuits? We, our pursuit policy we we will we will pursue you depending on what the crime is. If if there's evidence or reason to believe that the person committed smears bodily harm, if someone shot someone, we could pursue you. If it's just someone that took off because they were speeding and that's when you have to decide is is the juice worse to the squid? Is is it worth driving a 100 miles an hour down broad and high for someone who just might not have a license? I would say no. But, if they just kidnap the kid, then, hey, we're going and we're gonna we're gonna get you back.
Brian Steel [:So it's it's context. Yeah. It's it's it's it's like what why am why am I going to, pursue at high speed? Yep. Okay. Because I I remember, like, a case this is several years ago where, the Gahanna police, were chasing a young man. I think he stole a car and, you know, the the kid lost control, you know, and, killed himself. Yeah. And, they they blame the police for that.
Norm Murdock [:I'm kind of like
Brian Steel [:I'm kind of like, well, wow. You know, that at any moment, the kid could have just stopped.
Norm Murdock [:Right.
Brian Steel [:Right? But he he kept running and and the police don't know the age of the person involved. That means it's just a guy in a car speeding away from Grand Theft Auto.
Brett Johnson [:Yeah. So speaking of of the safety piece, I mean obviously we're walking up on 4th July, the fireworks and that sort of thing. I've never heard, anyone from the police department talk about how you handle security for half a 1000000 people down there. I mean, what's the approach and how do you what's the mindset of all this humanity in one spot that gathers for the full day, maybe the night before, and they're a little they're a little loose.
Brian Steel [:Red, white, and boom.
Brett Johnson [:Yeah. Red, white, and boom. Yeah. They're a little loose by the time fireworks are going off.
Brian Steel [:Well, now we got wrecked marijuana.
Brett Johnson [:Yeah. Right? Well, another little inducement there. But but if nothing else, just that lots of different people together in one spot.
Brian Steel [:Right.
Norm Murdock [:How do
Brett Johnson [:you guys take a look at that in regards to just keeping it safe for everyone?
Norm Murdock [:So I worked it last year. I'll be there this year. And, as an FOP leader, that that is it's the best and the worst day for a police officer. It's the best day because you get to out you get to go out there and there's great community interaction. It's the worst day because it's all hands on deck. Guess what? Your vacation's canceled. You're not with your wife and kids or your husband. You're gonna go down there.
Norm Murdock [:So as the FOP, we all go down there and also support. The overwhelming majority of individuals down there are great people having a great time. There's just that little pocket, that handful. What we saw last year that's very disturbing is you'd get a pack of 30 juveniles, and they would yell gun or yell shoot, and they all run. So it's the stampede effect, and they're doing it as a joke. It's not a joke. Kids are being lost. Old ladies are being knocked over.
Norm Murdock [:I wish they would stop that. Wow. And I would just grab them and say, knock it off. And it doesn't sound
Brett Johnson [:like Sounds like a Who concert ready to happen.
Brian Steel [:Oh, yeah.
Brett Johnson [:For sure.
Norm Murdock [:And you
Brett Johnson [:know, I mean For sure. Stampede people dying under
Brian Steel [:Fire in a theater. Yeah.
Norm Murdock [:Yelling fire. To answer your question, we go down there. We have, we put a lot of officers down there, a lot of resources. Be visible. Walk around. We tell people if you see something, say something. You see somebody with a gun or doing something or not, grab one of us. We're we're gonna do the best we can to remove them from the crowd.
Brett Johnson [:Because it always amazes me that event goes off and usually without a hitch. And it's just like Yeah. We can do this.
Brian Steel [:It is kind of amazing.
Brett Johnson [:It is, isn't it? If you think about it.
Brian Steel [:It's a it's a huge crowd. And you would think that there would be a lot more incidents Mhmm. Coming out of that Yeah. Than there than there are.
Brett Johnson [:Yeah. And I mean, in my mind, I attribute to they're seeing blue. They're seeing blue walking.
Brian Steel [:You know, on on another major event, what what, what is this human trafficking, warning during the Arnold Classic all about? I I don't really understand that. What are people are people is the thought process that people are stealing other people who are coming to attend, Or is the idea that, like, there's some kind of hidden market for people that come into town? Like, hey. Do you want a girl or a boy? You know, we can provide that. What I don't understand what that warning is about. And it I've I've heard it again this year.
Norm Murdock [:It just comes down to basics of supply and demand when you have large amount of individuals coming for whatever event and they're bringing money with them and they're they're looking to spend their money for individuals that that that vices, drugs, alcohol, prostitution. That's just simply where the money is.
Brian Steel [:So it's prostitution. When they talk about human trafficking, that they're using different words. Yeah. That's basic.
Norm Murdock [:We use human trafficking now for all prostitution, basically. And again, some some prostitutes are human trafficking. Some are on their own free will. Again, some are having addiction that they're they're just trying to, to to feed.
Brian Steel [:Yeah. And I guess the the migrant, the illegal, you know, incursion into the US, which I guess, the Godaways are they're estimating maybe as many as 10,000,000, you know. I guess that since they have to pay the coyotes back, I guess the opportunity well, that's a terrible way to put it. The they're forcibly perhaps having to turn to, illegal activities like drug selling and prostitution.
Norm Murdock [:Sure. Sure. So it it happens.
Brian Steel [:There's no Are we
Norm Murdock [:seeing that in Columbus? We we see that every major city. Columbus is no different. We have a human trafficking task force and and and they do a great job under attorney general's office every couple months. They're they're locking up. The the if you look at who they lock up, it's everybody.
Brian Steel [:Are you seeing a a lot of illegals? Or has that started to you know, you're seeing people who are not citizens more and more or not so much?
Norm Murdock [:Not being in that unit, we don't hear much about the actual victim. We just hear about the we call them the Johns, the actual person purchasing. And they're all over society. It's it's it's clergy, teachers, police officers, you name it. Married men with kids, they're it's everybody getting caught in those
Brian Steel [:See, I've I've heard one of the frustrations with the whole border discussion is that law enforcement, engagement with illegal immigrants is not it's not being tallied up or it's not being tracked. And I like like, I'll just give an example. There was that school bus, incident out there in Springfield where a kid on the bus died after a head on collision with 2 guys that have Spanish last names. I don't know if they were illegal or not. And I I just wonder, you know, with traffic, you know, manslaughter and and DUIs, Those stats don't seem to be available for us to assess the impact of illegal immigration on the criminal justice system. It we're we're we're guessing at it, but we don't have actual info. So, like, when a when an officer is doing a report on a, I don't know, a man, you know, on a murder case or or or or a DUI, there's no box to check, right, that says this person's a non citizen?
Norm Murdock [:If if they were if so we don't really track this. And and and municipal police department, it does not matter to us. If you're a victim of crime or suspect of crime, we don't really deal with you, in terms of your status. If you are arrested, there is a box that says US citizen, yes or no. But I cannot tell you where that goes or if anybody even looks at that. Yeah. But when I stop somebody for an OVI or gun offense, I'm not asking them, hey, what country are you from or what's your do you have a green card? We just don't deal
Brett Johnson [:with that. Yeah.
Brian Steel [:And I hear that's one of the difficulties in in, you know, like, trying to figure out what the impact is.
Norm Murdock [:A lot of that change of the president president Obama. Before president Obama, if I took you to jail for no license and you were not a legal resident, if you were an illegal, we would call, ICE, the DRO office, which was right down in this area, and they would put on you. When a president Obama took over, they had a sweeping policy through the DOJ that we will no longer detain you on these minor offenses. If it's a felony, it's my understanding that they would still we could still have you detained and wait for ICE to come get you.
Brian Steel [:Okay. So we we heard that, you know, Columbus at one time. I don't know if there still was a sanctuary city. Is there any kind of policy that you know of, within CPD or Franklin County or or wherever in in in, Lodge 9's area. Is there any kind of sanctuary law that prevents you from even contacting ICE?
Norm Murdock [:Other than that policy of the if it's a minor misdemeanors or misdemeanor levels, there there's nothing I'm aware of. We're still for felonies. Crimes of violence, we're still allowed to call. And I've heard too, Sanctuary City. I don't I I've never seen anything in writing saying that we were a sanctuary city.
Brian Steel [:Yeah. Unfortunately unfortunately, the US Department of Immigration Assistance or whatever, On their website right now, they list Columbus as a sanctuary city and that may not be accurate. You know, not everything in the federal government is accurate. Right?
Norm Murdock [:I could tell you there is no Columbus police officers actively working with, the Homeland Security HSI, formerly known as ICE. So I know there there's no partnership there at least formally working, but that's not to say maybe investigations
Brian Steel [:And there used to be is what you're saying?
Norm Murdock [:Years ago, probably before even my time, that was something that kinda happened at 2000, really under president Obama that that started to to drift away nationwide.
Brian Steel [:I mean, we got Russian mafia. Oh, sure. I don't wanna just talk like, you know, I'm worried about Yeah. Immigration from the southern border. I mean, you know, I I heard the Canadian border and US border. More and more people are coming through there because of pressures on the southern border.
Norm Murdock [:Sure. I think we're averaging with 3,000 undocumented a a month are coming across at least our southern border that we have no idea. These are the ones we're not catching that we have no idea about. Yeah. I'm sure the northern and not to mention
Brian Steel [:boats. Mhmm. Oh, right. Yeah. The submarines.
Norm Murdock [:Oh, yeah.
Brian Steel [:Didn't they get one in San Diego? It was a submarine.
Brett Johnson [:Oh, I didn't even
Brian Steel [:It was foundering and the coast Guard went out there, saved a bunch of illegals. Now they were bringing in drugs. Oh, okay. Yeah.
Norm Murdock [:Let me
Brian Steel [:ask you, about a couple of incidents. Can you update us on the status of the, Takaya Young situation where, it was Blendon Township where, she she took an officer off of his feet. She hit him with her car. After several minutes of dialogue, please step out of the car. She stayed in the car. She was pregnant. And the guy, you know, it'd be I mean, she assaulted him with her car, which is a deadly weapon. And he he and he and he shot her and I'm sure he didn't wanna kill her.
Brian Steel [:He wasn't trying to kill her, but you shoot center mass, I guess. I mean, you know, you do what you can, but it went through the windshield and, that can deflect the path of a bullet. It's my understanding. So whatever. She died. And I'm just wondering, is that officer been cleared yet or is that still in an investigation?
Norm Murdock [:No. Just to recap for your listeners that are probably aren't aware, miss Young was part of a theft ring. She was at Kroger. She was, these are facts of the case. She was stealing alcohol and, the investigation led to the show that they would steal alcohol and sell it on a, like, a wholesale market or black market if you will. So the officers were flagged down by the Kroger employee that she was stealing alcohol and they approached her and then she ended up striking the officer with the vehicle. He fired one round that has been presented to or it will be presented to the grand jury. It was investigated by BCI.
Norm Murdock [:That has not come back yet. Whether it's gonna be an indictment or no indictment, we would anticipate it may could be as early as this week to December. We're not sure when those those in Ohio, the grand juries are are met in secret. You don't know who's on it. You just know if they do what they call bill or no bill, present charges or no charges.
Brian Steel [:Okay. Is that standard operating procedure that BCI does also officer involved?
Norm Murdock [:The again, after 2020, Columbus used to do a lot of them. The sheriff's office would do a lot of them. We have our own teams, but now we just basically farm out the BCI. It's a 3rd party. It looks better in the paper when a third party is doing it. It's all it comes down to. CPD was doing their own, for for years, for decades outstanding job, but that is common now for BCI. Okay.
Brian Steel [:And then, another case well, I just wanna also note. I mean, we had that professional golfer down in Louisville, and then up in Chicago, another police officer was dragged. I think it was a female officer who was removed from her patrol vehicle. This is all on video, and I I find this inexplicable. She was removed from her vehicle and then dragged by her own police vehicle. It's all on video, and the perpetrator, even though she's even if I think it was a female perpetrate. The perpetrator is on video doing all this, and and and they walked. They they were not, they were not convicted.
Brian Steel [:So, I mean, even with, body cam and other kinds of cam, I don't understand how there's video of an officer being dragged by her own vehicle and being pulled out of the car by this person. And in the same way and I don't wanna get into the golfer thing, but I mean, he's at the scene of of a of a vehicular homicide and, somebody tells him not to go somewhere and, you know, okay, they dropped all the charges. But, hey, man. I I actually think the Louisville PD, like, I'm encouraged by the fact that regardless of whether you're a celebrity or not, they they they took that guy into custody. I actually, no no. I don't know the facts. I don't know if it was right or wrong or whatever. But I always say, well, what if it was me? They, you know, like, they woulda hauled me to jail, but they're gonna let, you know, some celebrity guy go.
Brian Steel [:And in this case, Louisville did not. And I kinda I kinda thought, good, you know? Sure.
Norm Murdock [:And I'm not aware of those two cases. I heard of them, but not enough detail to really make an opinion. I could just tell you just comply. Comply with the officer's orders no no matter if you're stealing alcohol or if you're a billionaire golfer. Just comply and we'll work it all out.
Brian Steel [:Yeah. Right. I mean, you know, like, oh, I wanna get to the clubhouse and and start working out and get ready for listen. I get that. You're you're a big time golfer, but there's a guy in a yellow, safety vest telling you not to proceed. Come on, man.
Brett Johnson [:Yeah. You
Brian Steel [:know? Like, you're no better than anybody else, you know? Yeah. So, the last thing that I have on my list and and then, you know, if you have some other items. But, this, former vice detective, for Columbus, some incidents back in the late 2000 tens. So 2017 and 2018, he was acquitted of murder charges involving, somebody who stabbed him, from the back seat of his cruiser. And, he he, you know, defended himself and and shot her is the allegation, and he was acquitted of that. But he has the same officer, same vice detective, is now serving, I think, as of this month was sentenced in federal court for kidnapping a couple of prostitutes and forcing them is the allegation, to, pleasure him. So I'm just wondering, FOP policy, when does your obligation to represent or stand behind an officer begin and when does it terminate in the legal justice system, you know?
Norm Murdock [:So we're governed by the high revised code 4117. We're we're a union. This is a union member. We, by law, we have to represent him in in in
Brian Steel [:the scope of his duties.
Norm Murdock [:So he has a right to union representation when he got an officer involved shooting that was to union representation when he got an officer of off shooting that was found justified. It was it was cleared by the investigators. It was what we call a good shoot. He was justified to shoot and then he now goes to court. And in that court, he gets acquitted in the criminal. There's administrative and there's a criminal. So we represent him in that shooting only. Anything else he did outside the scope of his duties or allegedly did or was convicted of doing, we do not represent him in that.
Norm Murdock [:That's not our member's money. That's not our attorneys. We have nothing to do with it. We represent you if you were charged in an incident in the scope of your duties. Let's say, there's a bank robbery and you shoot the bank robber and you kill them. We are going to represent you for shooting and killing the bank robber who assume he's shooting at you. Now if you go in that bank robber's pocket and you start taking out money and put it in your pocket, we are not going to represent the member for doing that. Gotcha.
Norm Murdock [:Does that make sense?
Brian Steel [:Yeah. Yeah.
Norm Murdock [:There's good people that do bad acts. There's bad people that do good acts, and we have to differentiate. But I could tell you, he is no longer a member of the FOP and we do not represent him in any of that alleged criminal conduct that happened, outside the scopes of his duties.
Brian Steel [:Brian, if I'm a police officer, you know, like a doctor can get malpractice insurance. If I'm a if I'm an LEO, can I keep it Steve up? Can I get, is there any kind of private insurance or is there any kind of insurance you can buy through the FOP for, you know, mistakes or negligence or or whatever you do in the course of your job? Or is it just there's no commercial
Norm Murdock [:such engine? So mistakes, negligent, those are kinda, you know, a little bit different things. Right? Do we look did, and that's how the law looks. Did you recklessly do it, purposely do it, Yeah. You know, knowingly do it? Negligent do it? We look at we look at, were you on duty at the time or even if you're off duty, was this within your official scope of your duties or not? And that's when we decide what we're gonna do. We have a legal defense plan which that just says that, the National FOP will help pay that bill when when, officer Tenzing down in Cincinnati was tried. He was tried twice. It was $2,200,000. He was acquitted both times, but that's how much that the FOP down there had to pay out.
Norm Murdock [:So we decided to enter in this national legal defense plan to help help offset those bills. We saw in 2017, we looked down horizon and as a local leadership here in the FOP, we decided, hey, there's gonna be more cases of officers politically indicted. And we were right because it's happened over and over again.
Brian Steel [:But, like, you know, that training range incident that happened recently where, I mean, obviously, the one police officer is not trying to kill the other police officer. They're out there at a range, and somebody made a mistake, I guess. I don't know all the facts. But, you know, it was an accident. Let's let's let's just for purposes of discussion stipulate that it was an accident. You know? And let's say the guy's family, the one police officer family wants to sue the other police officer personally. Well, that guy could lose his house. He could lose you know? Right? I'm just wondering if, you know, like, where is there any kind of insurance that that will back up an officer for mistakes, like, even a traffic accident?
Norm Murdock [:So it's yeah. It's not insurance and I'm not aware of that incident. I know it was a corrections officer. I'm not how sure how their union works. Let's say that was one of our members and we found out they were doing a live fire exercise, and the officer accidentally shot the other officer. And if he was charged with murder, that is something that we would represent them. If we found out he was hungover and smoking crack before he did that exercise, then we would not represent him.
Brian Steel [:I see.
Norm Murdock [:That makes sense.
Brian Steel [:Yeah.
Norm Murdock [:Okay. No, it does.
Brian Steel [:What about civil damages for an officer like where, you know, he's gonna have to go get counsel and probably, you know, defend himself in order not to lose his house and his retirement and whatever else.
Norm Murdock [:If that was a scenario in Columbus, because, again, I'm not really aware of how the state corrections does it. If that was in Columbus and there was a civil suit, in at least in Columbus, the city's attorney's office would now step in and they would decide, is that something we're gonna represent the officer and the city or if we're gonna wash our hands with it. And I would imagine Zach Klein, would look at the same thing. What what what was the totality of the circumstances? How did this occur? And is it something that we're likely to win or not?
Brian Steel [:Yeah. Because I mean, you know, I mean, officers driving cars all day, you know, a person can make a mistake. Right? They they they can they can hit a pedestrian through going through a crosswalk or anything could happen.
Norm Murdock [:It's also why we have qualified immunity and the importance of qualified immunity. It's not absolute immunity. It's qualified immunity. And I I used the example again, if an officer's driving down the street in the scope of his duties and someone runs out and he hits and kills them, he's not gonna he's not gonna lose his house. He's not gonna lose his job. If that officer was drinking or doing something negligently driving, you know, 300 miles an hour, then Qualified Immunity can be waived. It probably should be waived.
Brian Steel [:So the city would under Qualified Immunity. The the victim let's suppose it's be you know, it was for sake of argument, it was negligence. The officer made a mistake. You know, maybe was, doing something with the radio or whatever and and hit somebody in the in a crosswalk. That that person's family, if they did take action, would sue the city, not the police officer, in order to try to negotiate a settlement?
Norm Murdock [:Most likely. And your attorney and I'm not, but one of my favorite, my attorney friends, I'll use a famous quote, it depends.
Brian Steel [:Okay. Okay.
Norm Murdock [:Every attorney I've ever asked, it depends. Okay.
Brett Johnson [:You know, we've heard that answer before down here.
Brian Steel [:Yeah. Oh, yeah. You know, because if you're a truck driver
Norm Murdock [:Yeah.
Brian Steel [:You know, driving for United Parcel Service and you have a traffic accident, right, they're gonna sue UPS. You know? And I just wonder like, you know, it's complicated. I just
Norm Murdock [:UPS would cover him probably unless it was negligent. Yeah. Like Yep. Like, he was smoking crack while driving. UPS probably would not back him.
Brian Steel [:But if it was a pure accident. Yep. Yeah.
Brett Johnson [:Makes sense.
Brian Steel [:Well, hey, man. You're always welcome here. Is there anything else that, you know, any other news kind of thing or topic that you need to address?
Norm Murdock [:So just though and I'm glad you brought up Andy Mitchell. There's this misconception that our job is to protect bad cops. That is not what we do. We protect the process. And I have a saying, there's a mistake of the heart or the sake of the mind. And I'll sit down with an officer and we have to decide whether we are gonna go forward to represent you. If he had a mistake of the mind, hey, we could work with you. We could figure something out.
Norm Murdock [:If you have a mistake of the heart, you're out there stealing drug money like officers who are recently sued. If you're out there actively engaging in these legal acts on duty, then you're not gonna come to me looking for some help. You know, I'm going to gently, escort you out that door and say this is not a place for you. If you confront a violent individual and then you hit him and maybe you hit him one more time than you should have or if you shot him 3 times and maybe they're saying you shot him twice. But, again, he's a violent criminal that's shooting at you. I'm gonna give you the benefit of doubt and we, an organization, we are going to rally behind you. Yeah. The overwhelming majority of our officers, men and women, do an outstanding job.
Norm Murdock [:Every day they go to work truly not knowing if they're gonna come home and I applaud them. And like I said, you guys are all worth it. That's why we all do what we do.
Brian Steel [:Yeah. I I totally agree. And, you know, I I support the police. I can you imagine what society would be like if we didn't have referees, you know Yeah. Out there, you know, keeping the violence and keeping people from overreacting and and calming people. And, you know, police are essential. I the whole defund thing was so crazy, so so nutty, and it did tremendous damage, to the country. And I just, I I feel like people are starting to come back to their senses.
Brian Steel [:Even even liberal mayors are saying, man, that was a big mistake. Yeah. And even they are reversing course in places like Portland, Oregon, you know, where, you know, it finally dawned on them. And, you know, like, San Francisco's gotta do something. I mean, they're falling apart. My brother lives in downtown Chicago, and he said, you know, everybody goes in when it gets dark because it's it's just a it's a zoo out there. Yeah.
Brett Johnson [:It's like letting the inmates run the asylum almost.
Brian Steel [:And it it's terrible. You know, the Magnificent Mile, you know, that all the tourists used to go shopping in downtown Chicago. You can walk around till 4 in the morning, Navy Pier, all that. It's totally changed, he said.
Norm Murdock [:Mhmm.
Brian Steel [:And that's and that's a direct result of people in power not supporting the police and emasculating their ability to do sensible law enforcement and, well, we saw that New York City.
Norm Murdock [:Yeah.
Brian Steel [:The Giuliani approach really did work and, you know, what Bloomberg carried that on through his administration and then you it just shows you how quickly it can change. An a mayor gets elected who has a completely different view of law enforcement, and the city goes to hell.
Stephen Walter [:It sounds like you're describing Columbus.
Brian Steel [:Yeah. Yeah. I am. Yeah. I think Columbus we we when you see people fleeing places like the Short North to go out into the farm fields of, you know, places, you know, Sunbury or wherever. Right? They're they're escaping something. And this is again where like Brian was talking about, honest conversation. We need to do a lot more of that, you know, as a as a as a community.
Brian Steel [:Or we're gonna turn into a donut city like Cleveland, where everybody has left the inner city that can afford to leave it, a big hole in the middle of the doughnut. Yeah. And we're right back to doughnuts and police.
Brett Johnson [:Always. End circles. Oh my gosh. Well, this is Common Sense. Ohio May 31st. Hey. Brought to you by Harper Plus Accounting. We're coming at you from Studio C at Channel 511 each and every week right from the middle at least until now.
