Messy First Drafts to Magic: AI as the Creative Companion with Bernie J. Mitchell

Episode 68 • 1st November 2024 • Creatives WithAI™ • Futurehand Media

Lena Robinson: 00:00:00

The Creatives WithAI podcast, the spiritual home of creatives curious about AI and its role in their future. You're listening to WithAIfm. Hi, everybody. Welcome to Creatives with AI.

I'm your host, Lena Robinson, and today we're talking to a really good friend of mine, somebody I've known for...I was trying to work it out the other day...It's probably about 15 years, I guess. This is Bernie J. Mitchell. Hello, Bernie.

Bernie Mitchell: 00:00:32

Hi. Hello, folks. Yeah, I think Tony Blair was still Prime Minister when we met.

Lena Robinson: 00:00:37

I think so. We actually met. Interesting. So I always tell a little story of how we met. So we met on Twitter, actually, didn't we?

And then we met up in person, in IRL or in real life, as the young people say. And through you, I've had lots of really important relationships set up and connections that you've made.

Bernie Mitchell is one of the most connected people I know and an amazing connector, but today we're going to be talking about him. And I'm having a bit of a brain fog day today, so I'm going to be looking at my notes. Creator, writer, podcaster and coach.

It'll be really interesting to have a chat to you about some of the areas you like to talk about today, like the creator economy. But I know you're also very heavily into the co-working space and community building and so forth.

So tell us a little bit about, in a very short 'Cliffs Notes' version, a little bit about your background and sort of what brings you to talk about AI and creativity with us today.

Bernie Mitchell: 00:01:43

Ooh. So, like, I grew up in hotel and catering. People like to call it hospitality nowadays, but it's what you're in.

s. And I think this was about: 2005

They said we need to get one of those website things, which is still pretty late to the game. And that's how I accidentally got into marketing. And then I got into. And then all these things started happening.

. I first heard about that in: 2008

And I was in a group which you might remember, called Kindred, ran by Alex Butler, who was part of the whole Tech City thing. And we got to as A freelancer group that met in a co working space. A different co working space every day.

So I got to meet every time some back in those days, every time someone opened a co working space in London, Alex Butler would say, can I turn up with a bunch of freelancers? So I got to know pretty much everyone who ran a co working space in London, which is how I sort of appear to be amazingly connected.

And through that I got to meet. Like you said, I just got to meet a lot of people. All those, you know, silicon drinkabouts and all that stuff happening around Old Street.

Lena Robinson: 00:03:20

Yeah.

Bernie Mitchell: 00:03:21

And then I stumbled into. I'm sure we'll get to him in more detail later. Kofi and Urban mba and I'd heard about AI and then Kofi's like, you know, way ahead of the whole.

He's talking about. We're all talking about AI and he's talking about quantum computers. So that's how I got into AI.

Wouldn't say I'm into AI, but that's how I got introduced to AI.

Lena Robinson: 00:03:44

True.

It's interesting because as part of that co working environment, like you and I have shared a co working space, the Hub, when it was in news, it's called the Hub, wasn't it? Anyway, that's it. We always had coming in. You always had groups of.

You would have couple of hour hours in a morning or an afternoon of writers coming in and sitting, collaborating and also doing stuff themselves and artists coming in and drawing and painting and doing whatever and planning and doing their business. So you've always had that sort of creator creative thing going on.

What would be really interesting to have a chat to you about today and it might bring in that point around the creator economy is, and it's a question we tend to ask everybody is how is AI impacting your creative approach and the industry you're in from a creative perspective? Like what. How's that impacting you? How's that impacting your creativity and your business?

Bernie Mitchell: 00:04:51

rly on, I think probably like: 2013

I love writing and every time I put something on the Internet I like would panic about how it would look and then Grammarly really helped that.

And so I know I don't want to be a bit insincere to say I've been using AI for 15 years, but I've been using tools that are influenced by AI and I'm not really it must have something to do with AI.

So Grammarly, massively helped my ability to like, write right with confidence because I could already write, but going through with like Google Docs or Microsoft Word just wasn't, you know, it was harder work. So it checking my work was really, really useful. And then if you shoot to. Nowadays, when I want to write a blog post, I go and talk to Chat gtp.

I spend a lot of time walking around, fleshing out ideas. And one of the things, I'm sure I'm not the first person to say this on this podcast is, you know, AI is not going to take your job.

It's people who know how to use AI will take your job. And I had, you know, through those groups, you said, I just know a lot of freelancers.

And there were two groups of freelancers when Chat GTP came out and they were. One lot were like, oh, it's over. And they were like, you know, jumping out of buildings because their life was over.

Like the stock exchange had just crashed. And there were another lot going, oh, my God, now it's going to really start. And I'm in that group because it's just, you know, I see, I see people.

I think a lot of people listening to this will see people online who have gone to an AI engine and said, write me a blog post about AI in HR and they've just copied and pasted it. And you go, can just tell. Nowadays, even if you don't know what AI is, you can tell there's.

And then there's people who already know what they're talking about, and it just speeds up that process. So imagine I'm going to accuse you of being a bit like me. You'll have an idea and then you sort of walk around. But then if I go and, you know, I.

I find talking to people about an idea is how I flesh it out. And now I spend time talking to Chat gtp and then it just fleshes out those early stages. So I'm a very, very good editor.

So if someone gives me something and says, oh, what do you think of this? I can't help myself but edit it so I get that messy, messy first draft quicker. And then I edit it.

Lena Robinson: 00:07:30

I like that the messy first draft. It is, it is something that. A recurring thing that seems to be coming up with my guests is this almost collaborative approach with AI. Like, it's not.

They don't use it to cut out themselves or to replace themselves. They're using it in conjunction with. So is that kind of how you're seeing it.

Bernie Mitchell: 00:07:55

Absolutely. It's. And. And the. I mean, I'm still absolutely working it out, but I. I will give it. I mean, a slightly more interesting.

Sorry, fun thing is I love cooking and I'm a better cook since Chat GTP came along, because I will go to my fridge and I'll go, hello. I'll go to my fridge and say, I've got a lemon, half an avocado, three chilies, a slice of cheese. I know, some salami. And we have pasta.

And I just walk around talking the list into thingy. And then I'll say to it, there's three people in our house, my wife and my son, and we're following a healthy diet. We.

We want to follow the Blue Zone diet. We live in Vigo and Galicia, and give it all these details and say, what. What are the portions we should have?

Because we really give it loads of details and then it will come out with stuff. I'm like, I would know how to do that, but I don't want to give the brain. I haven't got the brain power to work out what to eat for dinner tonight.

And we like kings, because it.

You know, I spent years working as a chef, so I know how to cook, but I haven't got the brainpower to look through Jamie Oliver cookbooks and not a lingi. And, you know, and we're actually.

And it's taken six months, but we're spending more time with our cookbooks than we ever have because we started doing that with Chat gtp and we remember things. So that. And there's all these other uses. Like every.

I saw in whoever it was, someone on LinkedIn said they were talking about how they get things done in their company and someone would come and say, like, their first. And this makes them sound horrible, actually, as I'm thinking about it, they say, have you. Oh, I don't know how to do this.

Have you asked Chat gtp And most things you could just go, oh, how do I do this in Canva? Or, you know, who's the. Who's the 32nd president of the United States? Or whatever you want to know. If you ask it, it's done in a few seconds.

Whereas if you go, should we have a meeting about this? We need some creative ideas.

But the first, that messy first draft, which is actually an Handley's thing, not mine, but I'd love to open what I think it was. You can get that messy first draft done in seconds in Chat gtp. Yesterday we were having. I had A. I know.

Like our clients said they wanted to use one word for something and I thought they should use another word for something. And I got all like reactive. And then I went to chat GTP and said, oh, should we use tomato or tomato and can you make a case for both?

And it it that hot? And then I copied and pasted it into the thing, edited it so that whole thing took five minutes and it made my case very.

It made both cases very fairly. And at the end I said, because both tomato and tomato would have worked in this instance.

I said, I like this one, but this is why I think we should use my one.

And then they looked at it logically, but I would have written a hot email, would have run around all day getting, well, they don't know what it's like. They just don't understand it like I do. If only they knew what I would. And being all dramatic but all about it tomorrow.

Yeah, it wasn't, it wasn't, you know, one of those five minutes. It was actually under five minutes. I walked from here into our bedroom, looked out the window, came back and sent it.

Lena Robinson: 00:11:25

Like, that's the time saving, but also the brain space saving is extraordinary, isn't it? Like for me, one of the things I use it for all the time is, you know, I'm.

I consider myself a reasonably creative and intelligent thinker, but some days like today where I've had a bad sleep apnea night and my brain's not working particularly well, I will use my own tools that I've got, but I'll throw things into ChatGPT and go, I really need your help on this particular thing. And it's saving me time, it's saving me brain space which on a day like today, I have no brain space at all and struggle, you know.

So I think that brain space thing, and I would imagine particularly around things like your dyslexia and your adhd, the impact on your life must be huge. I'm imagining.

Bernie Mitchell: 00:12:27

I cannot like to say it's been life changing is, you know, I've got. I've done more work since Chat GTP came out, which is like two years, I've lost track.

But yeah, you know, I've done more work than I want to since it came out than I'd probably done in the last decade. And that's not a throwaway comment, you know, we, the rhythm. We do produce two podcast episodes every week, you know. Right, right. Much better.

n a photo pops up from, like,: 2012

But it's like, oh, my God, like, to. To produce podcasts, to make videos, to write online, to publish. Like, even.

Even the workflow through Google Docs and things like that would have been, you know, weeks and teams of people. And a big part of that is the. Is the creativity thing, because I, you know, I'd have to go and sit in a.

Sit in a cafe in King's Cross with my best moleskin notebook and wait for the muse to come. And now I'm like, sitting in the kitchen waiting for the kettle to boil and go, like, would this be a good idea? You know, and it just.

So there's a lot of things that pop in my head and I ask them, really ask it really quickly. And I would decide in, you know, under a minute whether we're going to go and do that.

Lena Robinson: 00:14:00

That's amazing. That's amazing. That's taking so many roadblocks out of the way, isn't it? You know, and. Are you. Are you talking into it? Because they.

I've only used the typing. Any version. Can you talk into it as well?

Bernie Mitchell: 00:14:18

You can talk into it, but I found that. I know it's just had an update, but that doesn't seem to work as good for me.

So I actually use the dictation thing on my iPhone and then I can go and edit it back and stuff like that. I just found walking around, I don't know whether it's. Whether my.

I don't know what's going on, but I dictate into the Apple thing in the chat window and then send that. The other thing that popped into my head and it's just gone. So we'll just carry on. It will come back.

Lena Robinson: 00:14:54

It'll pop back in again. So you're using the Apple portion to do the cutting down of your idea into a format that then can be put into ChatGPT.

Is that kind of the flow for you?

Bernie Mitchell: 00:15:10

Yeah, like, I'll pick it up, I'll press the. I'm gonna do it. So I'll just. I'll just press the Apple microphone at the bottom of the keyboard and I'll. I'll talk into it and then press Send.

And I know I have another. I have other things where you can talk. I can't remember the name of it, but I can talk into it.

And I know it can do it, but it's just that for me is much more efficient.

Lena Robinson: 00:15:35

Yeah, trip and tip of the day. That can be tip of the day. Well that's cool.

Well look, obviously it's impacting your life quite a lot at the moment and obviously it's something that you're aware of. So. And I'm just going to turn my page, everybody. Sorry, I'm looking at my notes.

I was going to ask you about examples and specifically in the sort of more creative end of the, of the world and spectrum, have you got examples in your mind of where you've seen AI being used at its most brilliant in the world of sort of creative and creativity? Art, music, film, whatever put you on the spot. Now.

Bernie Mitchell: 00:16:27

I'm gonna, I haven't because I, I kind of made this deliberate choice because I love getting lost and navel gazing and overthinking it. And one of the things I picked up from Urban MBA when I was like sitting in the room with the Urban MBA students and Urban MBA is a youth charity.

It's a, it's. When I say youth it's like 16 to 30 mainly and it's used to run a 12 week program. Yeah, yeah, good old days.

And they run, they run a 12 week program and a 12 month program where people can come in with a business idea and go through the whole thing.

And a lot of what is taught in that is how to use AI and technology to whether you're, there's people in there who run fashion brands, who run food trucks, who are graphic designers, like everything in there. And there's a lot of like practicality of like how's this gonna, how does this actually affect my day to day?

So there's a lot of examples we've already talked about here like that actually. But getting into, you know, I see things, they, they whiz past on Instagram and YouTube.

But I'm, I'm really interested in like how can I apply this to my, my daily life now?

Like what, what can I do with AI right here and right now that's gonna like save me time, speed me up, free up, free up brain power and things like that. And I do see a lot of people sitting around, you know, and we've run it. I've run events where people have philosophized about what AI can do.

When is Skynet going to come and take us all and what will this, you know, so I'm concerned about, I'm interested in like how this will affect the future of work because that's a big part of the whole co working thing and there's, and there's that whole debate around universal basic income and the impact of things like that. But like I'm really interested in like what's going to happen in the next six months.

So I'm sorry I haven't got a, you know, David Byrne level AI example but it is, it is. I see people, I see people doing things online but nothing specifically sticks in my head.

Lena Robinson: 00:18:41

No, that's cool. There's no wrong answer to these questions.

The next question on the flip side then is have you seen any examples of AI in this world of creative being used? Absolutely horrendously. The bad, the gross, the horrible.

Bernie Mitchell: 00:18:58

I think like online I see people, they're either doing something they think is cool and it's not and you know that's okay, or they're just lazy. So there's, there's like, it must occur to you that that is a really bad video.

video that if we'd seen it in: 2008

We work with a range of people providing a services specific to our clients needs and say you either you must have got your 12 year old nephew to make that on their iPhone and you just didn't check it before they put it up.

Lena Robinson: 00:20:05

Likely the 12 year old beta to be honest.

Bernie Mitchell: 00:20:10

And you, you are, I mean I put some, I'm always like testing and experimenting so you will definitely find some like mediocre efforts from me online if you go back far enough.

But it must occur to you that that is a really, that does more damage to your business and your brand having that immature AI video explainer video put up. Then you'd be better like sitting there in your underpants explaining your business than you would having that free AI automation video up there.

Lena Robinson: 00:20:46

Yeah, it brings up an interesting point.

Again something that's come up in some of the other conversations I've had with creatives and artists and so forth is the difference between the truly creative output and the ones where you sit There and go, oh, that's jarring. Is the artist itself, so. Or the creative person themselves, like the quality of the creative mind versus the average Joe Blow.

That's not particularly creative. Going, oh, look, me, I've made some art or I've made a film or whatever.

The difference is that vision that the creative person has in the first place and where they want it to. To go and end up.

Tom Morley, who I'm interviewing next week, actually, he, you know, Tom, I think the, he's this criticality guy, he always talks about the. To me anyways, talked about it, is that it's the art of knowing when to stop because of the vision that you have in your head.

And I think, I think that kind of leads to. What you're talking about is that people just keep pushing buttons.

It's not the same as somebody that understands what to prompt and when to stop, because the vision that's in their head is the difference. Would you agree?

Bernie Mitchell: 00:22:10

I do. I've never heard it said like that, but that is really accurate.

And as you were saying that, I remember when I first got into WordPress and I go into the plugin thing and I'd be like, oh, I can do that, I can do that, I could do that. And then I go to, we, you know, we had London bloggers meetup back then. I'll be like, oh, I've got all these plugins.

And I remember I'm Christopher, I think his name was saying you were just killing your website with all those plugins. Like, when are you ever going to need it to do that? When are you ever going to need to like, you know, post to the Empire State Building in London?

You know, I don't know what that means, but so, so I took them all off and it is, you know, so many things are less is more. And just because you, just because you can do it doesn't mean you, you should.

And the other thing that popped into my mind as you were saying that is the, you know, the Ira Glass thing. The gap is a video link in the show notes, folks.

So Ira Glass from this American Life has this two minute kind of explainer video that is, I know, 14 years old now and still looks better than that guy with his AI video. And it, it says there's a gap. There's a gap between your ability and your taste.

So when you start out doing a podcast, drawing, writing, you know, everything like that, you know, you know that it, you know, you know that it could be Ernest Hemingway or Maya Angelou and you're just trying to make it sound like that. And something like all the, all the, you know, meetups we run about blogging, YouTube, podcasting and everything like that.

The one thing that, the one thing that me and Andy Barger used to make this podcast, which was we talked to all these bloggers and authors and stuff like that, and we said, what's your one tip? And it got a bit boring because everybody would say, just do it. You know, just write stuff. And after you've written, you know, so.

But it was like, just, but it was, it was like, what if there's one thing you could tell people, it's like, just get on with it, you know, like, if you want to write a blog, get a website, stick words online. And then, and then after you've done a hundred videos, a hundred podcasts and a hundred, you know, blogs or whatever it is, then you'll.

Then you'll know where you are. And in podcasting, so many this. The stat is going around for years. So many people don't get past 20 episodes.

And in really, I can't remember who it was, but yeah, it's like someone, someone, I think it was Alex More Rosie, what his name is, the gym guy. Said to be in the top 10% of podcasts in the world. You just need to get to 30 episodes because so many people start and never go beyond there. And.

But then there's this line, you know, I've done I.

In I don't know that since: 2011

Well, not every day. So I've been writing that a lot of days since about the same time, actually. So I'm about to pass the 2 million word line.

And when I started out writing 750 words on a daily basis, it would feel like. It would feel like doing a marathon. And now I sit down and just know, you know, my.

I've configured my brain to sit down and say, you know, quite often I'll sit down and go like, I don't know what I'm going to write today. You know, I come and sit here every day, what's the point of this? And then I'll sort of flip off into.

And I Was thinking about doing this podcast, Believe It Today, and how AI has affected my creativity over the last decade. And you kind of prime the pump, but you have to. I hate gym analogies.

But, you know, it's like when you go to the gym the first time, it's like, oh, God, this is going to, you know, it's better to saw my leg off than come and do this. And then somewhere you wake up naturally and go in there and you've, you've run for an hour and have noticed it.

Lena Robinson: 00:26:25

Yeah. So with AI then, sorry, bringing us back on track.

Not that that wasn't interesting, but with AI then, do you think that is going to help influence that whole process for creatives, do you think? Or make it go faster or impact it at all?

Bernie Mitchell: 00:26:44

It will make it go faster. It will, it will.

And it, like right now, it's making it go faster because I can, I can work out how I'm going to do things and even tiny little things like when I get stuck with something on my computer, instead of going to Apple support and training through the forums, I'll just say, where's the, you know, I'm using, I'm using QuickTime on my Apple computer. Where do I find this button? And it will just go. So then the roadblock of, you know, how do I. How do I.

One thing I had is I was making videos in landscape and my friend Martin, who is really good at YouTube, said you should make them in the vertical one. So then I had all these videos and I couldn't work out what do I do? And I just asked chat gtp, where do I do this?

Because I was like trailing through so many video apps and everything like that and it, and it told me how to do it and wow, you can just do it in the Apple Photos app. But I was looking for software that is, you know, $30 a month and, and I just was able to get on with it.

So now I'm making more videos instead of working out how to use the software.

Lena Robinson: 00:28:03

That's cool.

Bernie Mitchell: 00:28:04

That's very cool. Yeah. So it's removed, it's removing roadblocks.

And then when you, I mean, and thing things like, let me use this example because it's quite practical. So send a lot of emails and write a lot of content, write a lot of YouTube things, YouTube titles and headlines and subject lines.

And I, I would take ages doing that.

You know, there's like things like Co Schedule, Headliner, Analyzer, which was always, which was great, but it was always a bit, you know, not it was a bit inhumane. And now I will make, you know, a podcast or a video.

I have an AI tool that I put the transcript into, like, like to, to post a podcast nowadays, Emily, we record it, Emily edits it. And then I do the show notes and all that stuff. And if we sat down, I could probably record an epic. We could probably get it done in two hours.

I would record it, send the, send the thing to her. She, she knows how to. Emily's my business partner. She knows how to edit. She's. I've never worked out how to edit. She knows how to edit.

She'll send it back to me. We do it all in our project tool and I'll get the transcript, put it into Happy Scribe, take it, drop it in a chat gtp.

I've got a prompt there that says exactly what we want the notes to say. But that prompt is in the old. Is in chat GTP3 point. It's one of the plugins.

So then I'll take it out of there, put it into the modern one, which is, knows how Bernie talks. And, and sometimes I have to remind it. What are the 200 phrases we don't like to use? Like it likes to say foster, collaborative, innovate.

You know all these words that are just deep dive, reaching. Take all of them out. Yeah, reaching out. Yeah. And, and then, and then I just know what I'm doing.

So I just edit it out and I'll read the beginning and it's like, you know, it loves to say, like today we sit down with Lena Robinson to deep dive into AI and innovative solutions for a collaborative, innovative community. And like that just sounds so, you know, fostering is a word it loves. So you know, we changed the.

Lena Robinson: 00:30:21

From some famous persons obviously saying it a lot.

Bernie Mitchell: 00:30:26

It loves, it loves the word fostering. And I can, you can just. And people use words like innovative, collaborative, fostering communities so much on co workers based websites.

Lena Robinson: 00:30:36

I'm going to show you and fostering.

Bernie Mitchell: 00:30:42

But then we, Sorry, I lost track of that. But then we get to the headline and I'll say something, you know, headlines are like as you, as you well know, like so important.

You know, if people, if you have a crap headline, people won't read the rest of it.

Lena Robinson: 00:30:54

Yeah.

Bernie Mitchell: 00:30:55

So I'll say, you know, the thing I like at the moment is like can you look at this?

And I know whatever I've said to it, but the point I make is can you give me a headline that promises what the content of our conversation actually delivers and it will Take like three goes and you'll get to something really, really cool. Because there's. I was working with, I was.

Did a podcast with Stacy shepherd who runs a small co working space in Totnes and it's a co working space for female entrepreneurs in Totnes. And it's just like, you know, beacon of amazingness. And it kept on saying women founders, which is, you know, that it is for women founders.

But that's such a, you know, as clunky. It doesn't say what she does. Yeah, it's clunky.

Every time you, every time you go to anything to do with, you know, business or tech, there's something about women founders which is really important. But that's not what she's about. She's about, you know, imp. Particularly empowering. See, that's what ChatGPT would empowering parents.

Mothers come to her, come to her place to get their work done, run their businesses and then it's built around, you know, I'm, I'm a mom. I have a little bit of time when my kids are at school. I have, I can't be dealing with loads of existential overhead.

I want to come in here, be with parents, bitch about my partner, pitch about my kids, be a safe space, get my work done and leave and feel inspired. And that's, that's what she does with people.

Lena Robinson: 00:32:31

It's.

I think what's interesting about that to your point is it I have to run it through sometimes when I'm doing stuff like that a couple of times and give it different problems. And it is about the art of the prompt because eventually it gets there, but without the human it would have just been a really shite.

And the headlines are just like, it's bland for some reason. Is that because. Oh, I'm gonna say something really controversial here. Is that because most of us write a bit blandly, like a bit blah.

Bernie Mitchell: 00:33:01

I don't write blandly, you know.

Lena Robinson: 00:33:03

Well, I don't either because I swear too much. But to be bland. But it's, it's, it's everything.

Bernie Mitchell: 00:33:10

It's the effort you want to put in. Yeah, it's the effort you want to put in.

And the, you know, I've been, I've read like every book I'm writing, but part of that Create a Write Club has been sitting around with other human beings talking about writing and you know, we'll read like Ann Lamont and Stephen King's on writing and you know, Seth Godin books and stuff and talk about them and that human Interaction, talking about the work and the writing is really, really important and being bothered to make words count. There's another great book by a guy called Josh Burnoff which is writing without bullshit.

And he says his iron imperative is that the reader's time is more valuable than your own. So when you're writing AI, by the way, link in the show notes, folks.

Yeah, so if you're writing stuff on, you know, like LinkedIn is where I spend a lot of time and that's not very creative. But you know, if you Write stuff on LinkedIn which is like copy and paste in chat, you know, it's, it's.

You're wasting people's time and people flick through and there's putting in a hook to get people's attention and there's putting in a hook which then create, then has text in there that's actually worth reading. And when you've done it enough times, you know whether it's worth reading or not.

Lena Robinson: 00:34:40

Yeah, no, that, that's, that's true. Yeah, the hook, I think that's really important because I think it's not just the hook to get, pull somebody in because that can be clickbaity.

And I, in fact, one of the things I got ChatGPT to do recently is I'd written a headline. It was almost there, but my instinct was going, it's not quite right. I said, make this punchy, but whatever you do, do not make this clickbaity.

And that was really interesting seeing what it had come out with initially.

And then what it came out was when I said, please make this eye catching and captivating, but not clickbaity, it knew exactly what I meant and it got it right because again, I was having one of those days when my creativity was not at its optimum. So that was really helpful. Yeah, interesting.

Bernie Mitchell: 00:35:33

So, sorry, go on.

Lena Robinson: 00:35:36

No, no, you go back on like.

Bernie Mitchell: 00:35:39

gger.com in like must be like: 2010

And because there was, there was all the co working, freelancering thing going on there. And now I think if you, if you walk around going, I'm a freelancer, that is, I mean, I. Which I've done nearly, you know, all my life.

I used to be a freelance event manager and then I was afraid, you know, freelancer is a bit like I'm, you know, I'm. Which is exactly what I've done for years. And I'm Sitting in a co working space and hoping something will happen.

And freelancers in co working spaces sit around and most of their business comes off the people near us. So when, when you know, you and I were in work clubs, if someone said to me do you know anyone that does video? I'd look over opposite and go Martha.

So Martha got lots of jobs. I mean she's very cool but she got lots of jobs because she was the closest.

She was like a meter away from me and was the videographer and you know, Mirab was sitting behind me. Anything to do with real estate, he got that and marketing. So there's that ecosystem there. Yeah, and sorry, I forgot about you.

There's I would say like initive innovative brand development. I would go to you but in that, in that so.

% this is, this is from: 2020

So they're making their own business, they're making their own that you know, they're making a course, they're making food, they're making videos, they're like owning what they're created. And because, because, because the way you know, employment and the job market is changing so rapidly.

Being a member of the creator community is really, really important. And that something, something to do with that languaging because you know, I'm a freelancer is like I'm hoping someone will hire me to write.

And I'm a creator. Like I'm, I'm, I'm edging, I'm an independent economic agent, which is what Brian from Copy Blogger used to say.

And having tools like Chat GTP means you can be more self reliant on your creativity.

e muscle in you know, even in: 2024

And if you eat avocados and not, you know, Frosties, you will just, you just be better at it. And you need to do that with your brain and have, you know, chat. GTP is like the machine you use in the gym to get that done.

I'm sure there's holes in that premise.

Lena Robinson: 00:39:16

There, but I understand the analogy.

Bernie Mitchell: 00:39:18

That's what I'm thinking.

Lena Robinson: 00:39:19

Yeah, it's the, it's the AI as a tool again, which is what keeps coming up over and over again. You've nicely segued into. Let's have a little bit of a look into, into the future.

If we're looking sort of three to five years out, what do you think the impact of AI is going to be having on the creator economy? And how do you anticipate both yourself and people that are creative in the creative community are going to have to adjust to make changes?

Bernie Mitchell: 00:39:57

I am, I'm going to give it. This might be a really disappointing. This would be a great answer, or a really disappointing answer is like, I am, I really am. Just after.

After spending so much time reading about where everything is going for the last 10 years, I just made this decision with AI that I'm just looking six months ahead at the most. And how is what I do going to help? You know, there's all the communities I'm part of and I run.

How is using AI going to help further what we want to be doing then? So like. And a lot of that is around, how can we.

very, every in the end of May: 2025

But then like, what is the point of doing that? And then how can we make better videos, better podcast interviews, better stuff online, better, better content all round that conveys that message.

So people go, oh, I don't need to just the day before say we're doing an event. It's like, how can taking part in that whole journey and activity help us be more connected as co working space owners? I'm focused on London.

on people in London and about: 1300

So there's a massive disconnect. It's not like there's a shortage of people in London that need a space to open their laptop and connect with like minded people.

I don't know what the stat is for how many freelancers and you know, creators and independent economic agents there are in London, but that's the, that's the, that's the problem I want to solve, you know. Well, I did actually this because I mean that.

So you know, there's like 300,000 economically active people in Waltham Forest and something like 70% of them are micro businesses.

So and then there's, there's 300,000 economically active people in Waltham Forest which is a borough in London and 70% of those are self employed micro. Like they have 10 or less employees or they're freelancers or they're, you know, registered as self employed micro.

So I don't know what 70% see and there's, and there's co working spaces. There's probably about 25 co working spaces in Waltham Forest nowadays and they all need more customers.

So what are those, what are the, whatever that figure, that 70% figure is 21.

Lena Robinson: 00:42:49

Where are all those people looking? 210,000 I think.

Bernie Mitchell: 00:42:53

Yeah, yeah.

So 210,000 people are eligible for a space in a CO work and there's a massive disconnect and some of that is obviously a marketing thing, but it's like how can these spaces communicate them better?

Because when people go to a co working space people get more connected and you know, when trust is, when trust is very high in a community, everything speeds up in business and the way things get done and everything and then crime goes down. So that's, that's what I'm interested in. This is a very long winded answer. That's what I'm interested in using AI for.

going co working business in: 2040

And people would say that around the sharing economy, you know, when, when we were running around doing all the sharing economy stuff 10 years ago, every six months someone would say, you know, predictions of the sharing economy worth, you know, whatever inflated figure it was, like that doesn't help me feed my family or pay my employees today, you know, and there's A lot of, there's, there's a lot.

And I do my fair share of naval gazing, but there's a lot of naval gazing and pontificating about AI and like there's, you know, we should spend more time and energy about where we are right now and how we're going to solve all the many problems in society. Like this week with. When I say AI, I mean like, how can we communicate good ideas better using AI, not how can we go to Mars, you know?

Lena Robinson: 00:44:30

Yeah, I like that.

I think to narrow down then on that future question is like, what do you see needs to be done right now in the, from an adjustment perspective in attitude and use and practical use of AI that is going to have to be done to make sure that the gap that you're trying to close in the next five, you know, three to five, even 10 years is happening. So right now, what needs to be adjusted to make sure that we're hitting those goals?

Bernie Mitchell: 00:45:05

It's, it's so one of the reasons I am madly in love with the Urban MBA thing. You know, I'm a trustee there, so I'm going to be above average enthusiastic.

But why I got really involved in it was because it just talk like you and me would have done really well in Urban MBA when we were, when we were younger.

Lena Robinson: 00:45:23

Yeah.

Bernie Mitchell: 00:45:23

And I have, I went to university to be a teacher and I found out so much about education or the education system. I didn't want to be a teacher. I didn't want to be a personal assistant or you know, a secretary.

I wanted to, I wanted, you know, really like education and I have so many friends who are teachers and I go, oh, what are you doing about AI in your school? And like, oh, it's not really relevant. Like, mate, like, it is like, it's like saying we're not using the Internet. Like how can you.

And my, my niece is at university and I keep on sending her things like Google Notebook.

Like if I'd had Google Notebook when I was at university, I would have been, you know, I, I was, I found out I was dyslexic at university and I had a dyslexic coach and I found out how to use a calendar online, you know, like a Microsoft or Google or whatever it was, you know, and it was life changing. And if I'd had Google Notebook where I could chat with documents and it's not, you know, it's not not doing the work.

It's like finding out how to do the work. And I cannot believe how many People are. How many people in education are not paying attention to AI? And.

And it's not, oh, we better know about AI because then we'll know if people are just hashing together their essays. It's like, you need to be teaching people how to use this, because that term prompt engineer is a really, really important job.

You know the story about the guy that comes in and turns a nut and charges 10 grand? If you're a good prompt engineer, you'll know how to write something.

It is absolutely possible to write a prompt in Chat GCP that saves, you know, thousands, maybe even millions of pounds, because you just tweak it in exactly the right way, you know, and that's the imagination being trained to use your imagination and creativity in order to write the right thing. That could. I'm sure there's somewhere I don't want to be. I don't know.

But, like, you know, I'm sure there's some way you could write something that would correlate the right information at the right moment that would save lives.

Lena Robinson: 00:47:36

Yeah, yeah, I would imagine there is.

It's an interesting point there about the prompt engineering, I think, because somebody brought it up a couple of episodes ago where they actually use ChatGPT to create its prompts for ChatGPT. And I'm like, oh, what? Hang on a minute. Which is quite a standard.

Bernie Mitchell: 00:48:02

That was just. Sorry, I thought that was just what you did. Like, I, like, we. There's a. There's a book we're going through at the moment, and if you put the whole.

There's the client we're working for, and they're. They're rewriting their book for a different audience. I can't say who it is because it's like, top secret.

But, like, we're rewriting their book for a different audience. And we put that. And we never expected it to just.

I want to be clear, we didn't expect to put the whole book into chat gtp and it spit it out, you know, this new fresh version and we go off to the publishers, but we, We. When you put the whole book in, it just like eats the whole thing and falls asleep. So you have to bridge it from chapter to chapter to chapter.

And the first version, first chapter it did was, like, amazing. We have to go and edit it and double check it and everything like that. But it's like, that's pretty good.

But we knew how to describe, you know, it was like saying, oh, we want this chapter to be like a little bit Beyonce with a bit of David Bowie and we'll chuck in some Run DMC in there and give an edge off, like, as if Jamie Oliver was like finishing it off with some pesto sauce. And that's not what we put in. But, you know, and it gave out exactly that, you know, but. But then.

And I had to ask someone who knows a lot about AI how to do this, and they sort of went, oh, mate, you're not cracking your eggs before you put them in the pan. You know, that's how you get a fried egg. I'm like, oh, sorry, I didn't know. And they, they explained how to.

How to just say to it, if I was to give this to something else, what would you. What would I need to do? So it was like it wrote it. So every chapter is writing its own prompt for the next chapter and referring back to it.

Oh, that's so cool. It's really interesting. But I get excited about, like, it's going to be never ending on how can you get it to do things.

And that's another really good example because we were stuck on the book thing and luckily we know people around to ask how you do this stuff. And so we unblocked and now we can get back to working on the words.

And there's three themes we need to incorporate into it and the theme, the book was written before AI and before the pandemic.

know personal references from: 2023

Lena Robinson: 00:50:44

I think one of the learnings that I've had was the power of using existing tools, materials and things that you've already created to then, as you say, do the next. Either next version or the next thing or what have you.

I'm with you because I've done some practicing where I've like, right, let's try this without anything and just ask it a question and you read it and you go, oh, that's so off, it's not funny. Then you go, thank you, chatgpt for that.

However, what changes if you add the audience profile and I'll have created an audience profile for something, what does that now change? If I upload this and you understand that it's being written by Lena Robinson and here is her biography, what comes out then is extraordinary.

So I've been doing a lot of utilizing existing methodologies and tools that I've created over the many decades that I've been working. And I'm finding that the combo of me and the chat GPT is taking things to another level.

To your point, still having to edit, still having to craft some of the words because it's too, maybe a bit too acronymy or a bit too jargony, which I'm know, I try not to do. Yeah, that's a really interesting, interesting point about the bringing of the two together. Do you think that's how it's always going to be?

Bernie Mitchell: 00:52:20

I, I, I think it will continue to evolve. So that's a really obvious thing to say. What a lazy answer.

Sorry if, like, I, I am, I'm just astounded at how it changes all the time because I was really happy with, I mean, I keep trying other engines and one of the places I've learned the most about AI is just I've been on AppSumo, the platform, for like years and years and years and just seen tools evolve. So there's an AI tool I brought there which I thought was amazing.

And now, and when chat GTP40 came out, that amazing tool that solved all our blog writing, SEO research problems feels like, you know, Ford Cortina and it just changes so fast.

So, I mean, I don't spend a lot of money, sorry, I don't spend a lot of time like, reading about where it's all going and, you know, chips in our brain and everything like that. But, you know, if you like, where, where what it can do in six months will be compared to now is, you know, will be.

I find there's a lot of things like, you know, when Steve Jobs launched the iPhone, you're like, I didn't know I needed that.

will need an app for that in: 2008

And I think, and again, like, as responsible artists, creators, business people, you know, you need to, like, keep paying attention to this, don't spend 12 hours a day researching it. But like, I found a handful of people that I, you know, I've read all their books, I follow them for ages and they, and I take my AI lead from them.

And most of them are right, talking about how to write much better content. And they're not, you know, trying to make something out of nothing or make nothing out of something. I know, got that wrong.

Lena Robinson: 00:54:36

One of one of the things, the whole reason why David Brown, who is the original host on creatives with A.I. hi, David. He.

The whole purpose of coming out with this particular podcast was to reduce the fear and to enable people to have a better understanding of things.

And I think for me, that sort of constant curiosity, that constant wanting to improve what I can put out into the world is only going to be enhanced by AI. I'm. I'm not personally afraid of it taking over and being me. Like, good luck with that start.

I'm quite weird and unique and odd, you know, peas in a pod, you and me on that one. I think, I think for.

I think what's really important, and I hope you think the same, that reducing that fear, making it more accessible, which I think ChatGPT has done a beautiful job of doing, is kind of is kind of that future is here kind of thing, isn't it?

Bernie Mitchell: 00:55:52

It is here. When I see, when I hear people, I mean, because there's. People are at different stages.

If I went into the, I know, butchery world and started following loads of stuff about butchery, I'd be a beginner, you know, so. But when there's people, particularly on LinkedIn, going, you know, the future of work is this. It's like, mate, it's already happening.

Like, it's been around for like three years and you pretending that you've just discovered all this stuff is going on.

One of the things we're going to do in the co working assembly with Ko Fi is run a workshop where people who are community managers and run and own co working spaces could come and sit around a table together and say, like, what are your, what are your top 10 things you do every week to probably market or communicate? I don't say marketing, but like communication around your business. And then we'll run a workshop on how to use AI to do that.

Because some of those people come in and they're talking at such a high level about AI.

And when we, you know, at conferences, people talk about AI, but they're talking about AI, a real estate building, you know, spaceships and robots kind of level. And it's like, I run a co working space in Beckenham in Kent. You know, I don't need to know that.

It's not, it's not helping me sitting around listening to all that, you know, there's all these things I don't do and I'm listening to all this stuff that is not applicable to my day to day routine.

How can I use Claude chatgpt, Gemini, use the features in Canva, use the features in HubSpot, use the features in, you know, Riverside to speed up, save time and make better stuff in my, in my business. And it's very easy. It's like, it's like running a, a kebab shop in Ilford but then always reading about, you know, Otter Lengi.

You know, you're never going to, you're never going to use, you're never going to sell spinach and blue cheese falafels in your kebab. Or maybe you. Actually that's, that's probably a better example. Like it? Yeah, quite nice. I'm hungry now.

And it's, there's, I remember there's, I think, you know. Do you know Julius the event guy?

Lena Robinson: 00:58:10

You've told me about him.

Bernie Mitchell: 00:58:11

Yeah, Julius, Julius Solaris, the event guy. Like last year he said, I, I go to events all the time. Everyone's talking about AI all the time.

And I go to their stand and say, what is your AI thing? And they're like, oh, well, like, you know, we, we've got a window where it predicts your text.

So really, you know, your event platform isn't built around, you know, solutions, Remote first AI solutions, is it? It means like you can do that in Google, you can do that in Gmail. So you haven't got an AI solution.

And no one, everyone's talking about it, but they're not doing it. You know, it's like teenagers are on heat. You know, they're all talking about sex, but they're not actually, you know, doing anything about it.

Lena Robinson: 00:58:55

No, true.

Bernie Mitchell: 00:58:56

I'm sure there's better examples.

Lena Robinson: 00:58:59

I mean, I've thoroughly enjoyed today's conversation. We're nearing the end of our podcast, which is a shame because I've really enjoyed it.

One of the last questions I ask, which I haven't let you know about is we always ask our guests if they could recommend or if there was somebody that they would like to see on Creatives with AI.

And it could be somebody famous or a mate or somebody that they've done business with that you think would make a really good guest on Creatives with AI. Who would that be?

Bernie Mitchell: 00:59:34

I think I. And you know this person, I'm sure, is Gina Romero.

Lena Robinson: 00:59:39

Oh, do you know? Yes, Gina Romeo.

Bernie Mitchell: 00:59:42

Because Gina, Gina runs a, an agency in the Philippines. She used to Be, ladies and gentlemen. She used to be. She used to be in London and Gina And I, about 14 years ago, used to run in events together.

She used to run an IT support company.

as it was called then in like: 2010

Her mother used to be a cleaner in London, which is how she grew up in London. And she. There's all these people, there's all these Philip.

Mainly Filipino women going and working in hotels in San Francisco and London to feed their families. Go, why are you all doing that when you could just work on the Internet?

So she's taught a whole generation of people how to be virtual assistants, prompt engineers and everything like this. There's a company called Connected Women and then she opened a whole thing in the pandemic. Everyone cut their costs.

So a lot of virtual assistants lost their jobs because people made cutbacks in their companies. And then she had this whole, you know, loads of women who needed something else to do. AI really kicked off.

So she has created all these jobs around AI for women in the Philippines. And she talks a lot about the dark side of people putting input in. She's very, very interesting. She's. She's super cool. And that would be.

I think the content she would come back, come up with would make mine look like a Ford Cortina. You know.

Lena Robinson: 01:01:30

I quite like a Ford Cortina. Poor Cortina. I think that's really amazing. Gina and I are in contact, so I'll definitely reach out to her. Oh, God, I'm using that word.

I'll definitely get in contact with her and have. And ask her if she'd like foster.

Bernie Mitchell: 01:01:44

That collaborative content engine.

Lena Robinson: 01:01:47

Yeah, yeah, the old tag tribers. We used to all be cool tag drivers that Bernie used to run this event group. Anyway, thank you so much for coming on. It's been absolutely wonderful.

Thank you to the listeners for listening to what Bernie and I have been chattering about today with regards to creativity and AI. And we would like to wish everybody a good day. Good afternoon, evening and stay curious, everyone.

Bernie Mitchell: 01:02:19

Bye, folks. Thank you.

Lena Robinson: 01:02:20

Thank you. Bye. It.

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