Shownotes
At some point of our lives, we have faced someone who not only disagrees with you, but bullies you to feel incompetent, ungrateful, and overall make you demoralized. However, these thoughts and feelings about ourselves come from positions of "leadership" that are often not great leaders in themselves. They have not put in the hard work, in some cases, to work on past problems & situations that make them incompetent, and they never realize this. Today's guest, Dr. Jim Salvucci, shares his unique perspectives on leadership, and how it shapes not just current leaders, but how he works with young leaders to think about the overall process of growth and development within ourselves. Knowing how to best work on yourself can create opportunities that address bullying, but also being a strong leader in the moments of enjoyment that we should all seek in the work we do. (BONUS! We also talk about Bob Dylan's music, which is an amazing connection to this episode!)
Guest Bio
Dr. Jim Salvucci was an English professor and faculty leader when he was asked to become the dean of the School of Humanities and Social Sciences at his university. There was one hitch, though. The School of Humanities and Social Sciences did not exist, so he had to found it. He soon realized that his lifelong background as a leader in many settings did not prepare him adequately for the challenge of founding a school. Jim is an expert in writing and communication and a passionate teacher. His varied experience and extensive learning have made him a seasoned public speaker, engaging audiences on four continents in a variety of formats, including podcasts (his called On Leading With Greatness), summits, and workshops. Jim writes a weekly newsletter and is writing a book. Becoming an entrepreneur out to lead a movement to guide young managers to become the next generation of great leaders, Jim’s knowledge of and commitment to leadership and teaching is unsurpassed.
Facebook Page: https://www.facebook.com/Dr.Salvucci.NY
YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@jimsalvucci/featured
Website: https://www.guidanceforgreatness.com/
- Toastmasters International -Home - Toastmasters is an international organization that has allowed your podcast host to go through personal and professional connection, combining all kinds of different types of communication and leadership development. Learn more about this organization at the link provided, plus check out the "Find A Club" option where you can locate an in-person or virtual club closest to you and your likings!
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Intro/Outro By: Michael Dugan, Podcast Host: Voice4Chefs
Transcripts
Welcome to the podcast where relationships, confidence, and
2
:determination all converge into
an amazing, heartfelt experience.
3
:This is Speaking From The Heart.
4
:Joshua: Welcome back to episode
number 136 of Speaking from the Heart.
5
:Today we have Dr.
6
:Jim Salvucci as our guest, and Dr.
7
:Salvucci was an English professor and
faculty leader when he was asked to become
8
:the Dean of the School of Humanities
and Social Sciences at his university.
9
:There was one hitch, though.
10
:The School of Humanities
and Social Sciences did not
11
:exist, so he had to found it.
12
:He soon realized that his lifelong
background as a leader in many settings
13
:did not prepare him adequately for
the challenge of founding a school.
14
:Jim is an expert in writing and
communication, and a passionate teacher.
15
:His varied experience and extensive
learning have made him a seasoned
16
:public speaker, engaging audiences
on four continents in a variety
17
:of formats, including podcasts,
which his is called On Leading With
18
:Greatness, summits and also workshops.
19
:Jim writes a weekly newsletter
and is also writing a book.
20
:Becoming an entrepreneur out to lead a
movement to guide young managers to become
21
:the next generation of great leaders.
22
:Jim's knowledge of, and commitment to,
leadership and teaching is unsurpassed.
23
:I really love Jim's conversation with me
today, because not only does he bring a
24
:perspective from an academic sense, which
is always helpful especially with framing
25
:what some of the real life application
of leadership and communication is all
26
:about, but it also allows us to really
dig deep into not only the principles
27
:that are involved with it, but also
understanding why it's so important
28
:for the wrestling of different concepts
such as incompetence, imposter syndrome,
29
:and even being able to motivate, and
have the ability to do certain things,
30
:can create that position of strength,
especially as we work through a variety
31
:of different angles in our lives.
32
:Regardless of your education level, or
even who you are, I think you're going
33
:to get a lot out of our interview today
with Jim and how it meant so much to
34
:not only share what these perspectives
are, these puzzle pieces if you will,
35
:but it also allows us to understand
why it's so important to become not
36
:only bold when the challenge presents
itself, but also willing to understand
37
:that there's more ways than one to
solve a problem, even if it takes having
38
:the ability to motivate others to lead
the charge in a whole new generation,
39
:in a whole new sense of the meaning
of being able to lead from the front.
40
:But with that, let's go to the episode.
41
:Alright, we're here with Jim Salvucci.
42
:Jim, thanks for sharing
your heart with us today.
43
:Jim: Yeah, Joshua, it's great to be here.
44
:Happy to share my heart, maybe
a little chunk of my brain.
45
:Joshua: Oh.
46
:I think you got a lot on the brain and
in the heart from what I've read about
47
:you and what my audience now knows about
you after hearing a little bit about
48
:your background, Jim, so thanks so much
for taking time out of your schedule
49
:to do this with me, and I really want
to start with this question because as
50
:somebody that has also been well educated,
I don't have a doctorate degree like
51
:yourself, but, nevertheless, I'm kind of
curious what got you started into some
52
:of the leadership that you have done.
53
:I noticed that you were a faculty
member of a well known college, and I'm
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:wondering if you could tell a little
bit about your backstory as it relates
55
:to that, because I feel like that's the
catalyst to a lot of what our conversation
56
:that we'll have today is about.
57
:Jim: I've been involved in leadership
on some level since I was a little kid.
58
:I was in Boy Scouts.
59
:I was like 12 years old, and they
advanced me to like the top leadership
60
:position in the troop for some reason
or other, and way before I held the
61
:rank that was supposed to have and
I've just always been thrust into
62
:leadership positions my whole life.
63
:At 18, I was a boss, I had
employees, which was fine
64
:and I was pretty good at it.
65
:I wasn't, wasn't a bad leader,
wasn't a bad boss either.
66
:When I went into higher ed, became
a faculty member, I was an English
67
:professor, I became a faculty leader,
so I was working at a small university
68
:outside of Baltimore that you've never
heard of, and I was a faculty leader.
69
:I was asked to lead the
reaccreditation; every 10 years
70
:you have to be reaccredited.
71
:That was a big deal, and then
they asked me to become the dean
72
:of the School of Humanities and
Social Sciences, which is great.
73
:I mean, that was excellent,
except for one thing.
74
:There was no School of Humanities
and Social Sciences, so I had to
75
:found it, so I created the School of
Humanities and Social Sciences, and
76
:what I discovered was putting a school
together is actually quite easy.
77
:This goes with that; that goes with this.
78
:I had like 6 or 7 departments,
I think 15 disciplines.
79
:That was easy.
80
:What was hard was figuring out how to get
it up and running and keeping it running,
81
:right, so how do you make this work?
82
:I thought, "Okay, well I'll look
around at what resources I have."
83
:I was a pretty good,
what I call, gut leader.
84
:Right?
85
:I had good intuition.
86
:I had good experience, but I never
really thought about leadership in any
87
:rigorous way, but the stakes were way
higher now, so I looked at my bosses.
88
:They were bosses, and I make a strict
distinction between bosses and leaders.
89
:They weren't particularly good, and it got
no mentorship or guidance or training of
90
:any kind, and then I looked at my peers.
91
:They were flailing around wildly,
totally lost, and I thought, "Well.
92
:This is probably not good.", but
I did imitate them for a while.
93
:You watch people and you think, "Oh.
94
:Maybe they're doing it right.",
and you try other things, and I
95
:started realizing I was slipping
into perfectionism, workaholism.
96
:God forbid, micromanagement.
97
:This is not me, so I started thinking
about, "Well, what can I do here?
98
:I've got to break away from this.", and
a few things happened that helped me
99
:break away, just some revelations, and
I thought, "Well, I'm on my own here.
100
:I got to figure this out.", so
I started studying leadership.
101
:I started thinking about
leadership in a rigorous way.
102
:I started going to workshops.
103
:I started meeting people.
104
:I didn't really have any
help on my own campus.
105
:I was put through leadership training
there that was laughable at best.
106
:Insulting really is the word, and so I
really just had to figure out what was
107
:going on, and how could I be the best
leader, so I started treating leadership
108
:like a second discipline of study.
109
:My first discipline was English.
110
:My second discipline was leadership.
111
:I tried what I was learning.
112
:I failed a lot.
113
:I also learned that you can learn
a great deal from other people's
114
:mistakes, so when my bosses screwed
up or my peers, I learned from that.
115
:When I watched them hurt people,
I learned how not to do that.
116
:Eventually, I left higher ed.
117
:I left that school and I went to a
couple other schools as a vice president,
118
:and then left higher ed and thought,
"Well, what do I want to do?", and
119
:what I really wanted to do was what I
used to love doing as an administrator.
120
:I used to love working with young
people, mentoring them, guiding
121
:them and helping them become great
leaders, so that's what I do.
122
:Joshua: That is really important.
123
:I have had guests on the show previously
too, Jim, about talking about what is
124
:really important when it comes to not
only leading, but also communicating.
125
:It's one of the things that I feel is so
important that sometimes is missed out
126
:when it comes to important aspects of
not only college education, which, yeah,
127
:we get fed a lot of philosophy, a lot of
different types of theories, but putting
128
:into practice is a whole other discussion
in itself, so I am curious and building
129
:off of that comment about young leaders.
130
:How do you do that with your work?
131
:How do you help others that are
budding and they're trying to
132
:figure out how to actually lead?
133
:What are some of the things that
you actually dive into with them?
134
:Jim: Yeah.
135
:I mean I'm a coach, so I
work individually with them.
136
:I'm also looking into
starting group coaching.
137
:I'm a speaker, so I do it from a stage.
138
:I do it in podcasts, and I write.
139
:I have a weekly newsletter and
podcasts that I put out on leadership,
140
:so in all these places, I really
try to get at people's values.
141
:The best leaders are
values driven leaders.
142
:The number one leadership
principle is human decency.
143
:Be a decent human.
144
:If you start there, you got
a pretty good foundation.
145
:There's a lot of other principles that
come in and I tailor it to each person.
146
:When I talk generally from a stage or in
a podcast, I talk a lot about things like
147
:what I call the four C's of leadership.
148
:You mentioned communication.
149
:That's one of them.
150
:The other three are character,
compromise, and collaboration.
151
:I'm not real big on leadership.
152
:There's a lot of wisdom out there; some
great stuff, great books, great speakers.
153
:You can learn a lot from them, but I find
that a lot of them kind of are pitching
154
:their ideas and there's more individual
ways of getting at it, and that's why
155
:I reduce things to very small numbers.
156
:The four C's of leadership, not
the 25 C's of leadership, partially
157
:because the human brain can only
handle four things at a time.
158
:Joshua: Yeah.
159
:Jim: At maximum.
160
:Joshua: Yeah.
161
:Jim: And so it's just easier
to comprehend, but also
162
:because that's all you need.
163
:If you have those four things,
you're a really good leader.
164
:Right?
165
:If you have character meaning values,
if you can communicate, and I can go
166
:on and on about communication, but
if you can communicate a valuable
167
:message, where's that value come from?
168
:From your character, right, and
they all build on each other.
169
:If you can communicate, then
you can compromise, right?
170
:Meeting someone part way, and then if
you can compromise, you can collaborate,
171
:which is the highest level, really
which means more than meeting people
172
:halfway, but really participating;
creating a collective, so, these
173
:are things I talk about quite a bit.
174
:Joshua: I have to say, what you said
about what our messaging is, what
175
:you communicate, I often tell people;
you said four, I usually say three.
176
:We're in the ballpark, close enough,
because I think that just small chunks
177
:at a time make a big difference with
saying that, but you said something
178
:that's really important too, is that
message that's inside of us, if we have
179
:good character, good values, that is
something that we can easily draw upon,
180
:and that would be the effective message,
and I had a guest that said, it's the
181
:story that we have inside of ourselves.
182
:Now, they were talking about writing
and being a book author, but it's
183
:the same principle with speaking.
184
:You have an idea inside of you.
185
:You're able to flush that out.
186
:I really love that.
187
:You're validating a lot of the good things
that I think both you and I work on and
188
:also the other people that are definitely
striving to be that, but I noticed
189
:something that maybe might be some of the
information that catalysts a lot of what
190
:we're talking about, and you're talking
about your experiences with being able to
191
:build the school and helping to put the
puzzle pieces together, but I'm wondering,
192
:because this is something that I notice
in your bio that you have been through
193
:bullying in the workplace, I'm imagining?
194
:I noticed that you have some sort of
expertise with that, and truthfully,
195
:that really gets to my core because
I have been a state civil servant.
196
:One of the things I probably didn't tell
you about myself, but my listeners know,
197
:that I've been doing this a long time, but
I found a lot of different personalities
198
:in state government, and sometimes they
can be a bunch of bullies themselves
199
:in the workplace, so I'm wondering if
there's some sort of indirect connection
200
:between those two topics, and what would
you say to somebody that is going through
201
:something like bullying in the workplace
to help them be able to overcome?
202
:Jim: Yeah, it depends on who's
doing the bullying, right?
203
:I mean, there's techniques
for dealing with pure bullies.
204
:When the bully's your boss,
you're pretty much done.
205
:I mean, they have all the power.
206
:A lot of people just knuckle under to a
bully boss, and that's the worst, because
207
:then they become much like the bully boss.
208
:They empower the bully boss.
209
:If you fight back, though, you're
caught, and I've been there.
210
:It's like encountering
a cop on the street.
211
:They have all the power, or
a teacher in the classroom.
212
:A teacher is a bully.
213
:You're a student.
214
:What are you going to do?
215
:They got all the power,
so it's imperative.
216
:If you're a boss, if you're a boss, if
you have that position, you're a manager,
217
:executive, whatever your title is.
218
:If you oversee people and you
bully them, you are incompetent.
219
:Find me the part of your job description
that justifies that behavior.
220
:Tell me what it is.
221
:You are undermining your people.
222
:You're making them less productive.
223
:You're hurting them, and they're probably
bringing stuff home, right, but how
224
:is this going to help productivity?
225
:Oh, yeah, you might get them to jump when
you walk in the room, but I can guarantee
226
:you they're not jumping when you're not
there, so you are, in fact, incompetent.
227
:Joshua: That is a pretty strong statement,
but I agree with you, because they are.
228
:They're lacking in that leadership;
those communication skills, all of
229
:those things, and it makes me wonder
sometimes too, where does that come from?
230
:Where is that motivation to just bully?
231
:Do you have any thoughts on that?
232
:Jim: Yeah.
233
:There's myriad.
234
:One of the reasons I say they're
incompetent, is because the job
235
:of every manager is to make their
employees better at their job.
236
:Joshua: Yeah.
237
:Jim: If you're literally
doing the opposite of that,
238
:you're not very good, right?
239
:You suck, but where does that come from?
240
:Sometimes it's because they've been
bullied, and they knuckled under at
241
:one time and now they're striking back.
242
:It literally is just a building of
really in depth imposter syndrome.
243
:Sometimes they just feel overwhelmed.
244
:They don't know what they're doing,
but I've seen people turn from decent
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:people to bullies when they became
bosses, maybe that's the only model
246
:they saw, maybe they were bullied,
and a lot of people, when they become
247
:managers, they just replicate what they've
seen, and that's what I refused to do.
248
:I had horrible bosses.
249
:I'll be damned if I act like
that, and so I tried to do the
250
:opposite, or not the opposite.
251
:It's not always just the opposite of what
they do, but I tried to be a different
252
:type of person, and a different type of
boss, and I wasn't always successful,
253
:and there may even be times I actually
slipped into some bullying, especially
254
:early on when I was a little green.
255
:I didn't know what I was doing, right,
but I think, to answer your question
256
:succinctly, I think people become bullies
because bullies beget bullies, right?
257
:They were bullied.
258
:They get bullied.
259
:They bully people.
260
:Those people become bullies,
just like leaders beget leaders.
261
:Joshua: I have people that listen to
my podcast that also influence leaders
262
:and also other individuals, whether
that's in a professional realm, whether
263
:that's in a volunteer realm, some of
them might be young, so fitting right
264
:into the mold of what you specialize in.
265
:What would you say, or a couple of things
that you would recommend, if somebody
266
:did get that feedback that, "You're a
bully, and you should stop doing this
267
:to me, and to my other friends that are
working with me, because you're making
268
:me feel like I'm inadequate.", all
these disgusting feelings, essentially.
269
:Is there anything that they
can do to diagnose, or even
270
:treat the illness, of bullying?
271
:Jim: You're talking about the
individual is a bully and they're
272
:being told they're a bully?
273
:Joshua: Correct.
274
:Jim: Yes.
275
:Stop.
276
:I mean-
277
:Joshua: Not very simple
though, Jim, just to stop.
278
:Jim: I think that idea of
incompetence is key, right?
279
:Your job is to make other
people better at their jobs.
280
:That is your whole job.
281
:That is all of it, really.
282
:Your ego has to go.
283
:I say, take your ego, stuff it in
a sack and throw it in the river.
284
:You got to work on this.
285
:You got a lot of work to
do if you're bullying.
286
:You've got a lot of work to do on
yourself, and it starts with the self.
287
:You have a lot of introspection.
288
:You've got to understand how your
actions are affecting people.
289
:You've got to understand, would
you like this done to you?
290
:Your employee messed up
and you act like a beast.
291
:Is that proper?
292
:What I tell people is, there's a special
place in hell for bosses who yell.
293
:If you're a yeller, I don't
know, stop, just stop.
294
:I'll tell you Joshua, though, I
don't have a really great answer for
295
:this, because I've never had this.
296
:I've never had the opportunity
to say to someone, who is open
297
:to hearing it, "You're a bully."
298
:I've never had that opportunity,
because bullies don't seek help.
299
:Joshua: About a decade ago, and I don't
know if this person will ever fall on this
300
:recording, so if they do, well, they're
going to find out the hard way, but yes
301
:sir, I did approach you, and I told you
straight to your face that you were a
302
:bully, and you did it to others, and yeah,
I got walked out, just for the record,
303
:Jim, because I stood up for myself, and
I remember that day as being the lowest
304
:point in my life, but then, looking back,
I remember that being the highest point,
305
:and it's all about hindsight at the end
of the day, because I didn't realize that,
306
:and this was in my twenties, by the way,
so I was a young person as well, try to
307
:figure this out, so it's kind of funny how
we're having this conversation and just
308
:like flash these memories up for me, but-
309
:Jim: Yeah.
310
:Joshua: I think that if we don't get
to face that challenge, or if we do
311
:have to face that challenge, how are
we going to respond if that situation
312
:ever comes, and it's so hard to really
describe it, in my opinion, and I know
313
:that's not what you're saying, but that's
what I'm saying is that it can be hard,
314
:especially if you have so many things
going on, whether it's your financial
315
:security, whether you really need
that job, whether it's just a stepping
316
:stone; you just got to get through it.
317
:I mean.
318
:I don't know.
319
:There's all kinds of different
motivations for that.
320
:I don't know if you have anything
you want to say in terms of that.
321
:Jim: Yeah.
322
:Well, look, if you're being bullied,
there's a number of things you
323
:do that probably, the best, if
it's possible, is leave if you're
324
:being bullied by your boss, right?
325
:Joshua: Yep.
326
:Jim: Just get out.
327
:You're not going to win this battle.
328
:Trust me.
329
:I've lost this battle, okay?
330
:I've been walked out myself, but what
you need to do is you also need to
331
:resolve to not ever do that yourself.
332
:Right?
333
:Whatever you do, if you stay there,
you leave, whatever you do, don't
334
:turn into what you're seeing, right?
335
:Simon Sinek has a really
great little aphorism.
336
:He says, "Be the boss you wish you had."
337
:My codicil to that is, "Don't be
the boss you wish you never met."
338
:Joshua: You should get that patented.
339
:It's so riveting because for me, like
I said, my experiences dealing with bad
340
:bosses, which I've had quite a number
of them getting to this point in my life
341
:and my career, I know that it can be very
tumultuous and trying to navigate through
342
:that, which really, is a great segue into
something that I saw that you're certified
343
:in, which is the Tiny Habits Model.
344
:I wonder if you could just tell a
little bit to our audience what that
345
:is, and how that fits it maybe into the
framework or either the conversation
346
:that we just had, or even just in
general, with how that applies in life.
347
:Jim: Yeah, so Tiny Habits, for those
who don't know, not to be confused with
348
:Atomic Habits, which is a great book.
349
:Joshua: Yeah.
350
:Jim: But a lot of that's based on the
research that informed Tiny Habits.
351
:Tiny Habits was created by BJ Fogg, who
is a Stanford researcher, and he runs
352
:the behavior change clinic at Stanford.
353
:Dr.
354
:Fogg did a lot of research.
355
:He's the researcher.
356
:He's not reporting.
357
:He's not compiling other people's stuff.
358
:He did the work, which is
important to realize, and he had
359
:a few really great breakthroughs.
360
:One is that all behavior
comes down to three factors.
361
:Every behavior we have, there's
three things that happen.
362
:One is some sort of motivation,
whether you're willing to do it or not.
363
:Another is your ability to do it.
364
:How hard is it?
365
:How easy is it, right, and
the third one is a prompt.
366
:Something gets you to do it.
367
:Someone asks you to do it.
368
:You have a need.
369
:You're hungry.
370
:You eat.
371
:That's your prompt, so everything
boils down to those three, and when
372
:we try to form new habits or unravel
old habits, we tend to lean really
373
:heavily on motivation, and motivation
is not reliable at all, right?
374
:People say, "Well.
375
:Just suck it up and do it."
376
:Well, that almost never works
and certainly doesn't work over
377
:time, and it's barely scalable at
all , and I always use the example.
378
:In January, the gyms are filled.
379
:In February, the gyms are empty.
380
:Why?
381
:People were motivated in January
and they lost their motivation for
382
:a variety of reasons by February.
383
:BJ's idea is, well, instead of
playing with motivation, why
384
:don't we play with ability?
385
:Make it easier to do.
386
:Make it so small that it doesn't matter.
387
:You want to exercise more?
388
:Well, okay, do a little
bit of exercise, right?
389
:You want to do a hundred push ups a day?
390
:Start with, I don't know, two,
right, and all of a sudden, you
391
:can do two, and it's so easy.
392
:One of his other really big, observations
is that we don't form habits over time.
393
:I'm sure you've heard 22 days to a new
habit; 90 days, new habits; six months.
394
:Why are there all these different ones?
395
:Because none of them are true.
396
:If you're doing something for 90 days,
it's probably happened already, right?
397
:Joshua: You were saying what was on my
mind, so thank you, because I didn't know
398
:if I should say it, or you should say it.
399
:Jim: So how do we form habits?
400
:You can form a habit in an instant.
401
:All right, and I'll give you an example.
402
:If you remember way back when,
when people had flip phones, right?
403
:These little gray boxes, right?
404
:Joshua: Yup.
405
:Jim: Not very interesting.
406
:Got your first flip phone.
407
:You looked at it when it rang, or you
needed it, you turned it on, you looked
408
:at it might have stupid game in it that
you got bored with after five minutes.
409
:Then one day you got a smartphone.
410
:Totally different beast, right?
411
:You look at it.
412
:It's beautiful.
413
:It's interesting.
414
:It's got all these colors and lights
and apps and all this stuff, and
415
:you play with it for a little while
and you put it in your pocket, and
416
:five minutes later, what do you do?
417
:Joshua: Pull it back out.
418
:Jim: Pull it back out.
419
:In that instant, you form the habit
of looking at your smartphone.
420
:What's the difference?
421
:Emotion.
422
:We form a habit.
423
:Every habit we have
comes from some emotion.
424
:Good, bad, or indifferent.
425
:Right?
426
:There's not always positive emotions,
so what BJ argues is when we want to
427
:form a habit, we need to induce an
emotion, and the one he suggests we
428
:induce is what he calls shine, and
it comes from the feeling of success.
429
:It's the emotion of success,
and how do you get that?
430
:Celebrate, so you do those two pushups
and you celebrate them, and when you
431
:do that, and when you really feel
that sense of success, that motion
432
:of success, it becomes a habit, and
you'll find yourself doing the pushups.
433
:The other piece is, and I'm
kind of doing this backwards,
434
:is you need some sort of anchor.
435
:Okay.
436
:Some people call it habit stacking, right?
437
:Something you already do.
438
:Some routine, some other habit.
439
:Every day at such and such
time, you brush your teeth.
440
:Okay.
441
:That's your anchor.
442
:Immediately afterward, do your two
pushups and then celebrate, and then
443
:over time, those two pushups will become
five, and ten, and on and on and on.
444
:I started this way.
445
:I'm using pushups as an example,
because I actually did this.
446
:I now do over 120 pushups
a day, at least, okay.
447
:120 pushups a day.
448
:That's not all at once.
449
:Not all at once, right, but I do
them in blocks of 30, and it's habit.
450
:I feel like I want to do it, you know,
so it's really powerful stuff, but
451
:those are really key observations, and
I think about emotions are credible.
452
:It really has transformed
how we understand habits.
453
:Joshua: Yeah, and habits, when we form
them- and it's funny because I have a
454
:client right now that is going through
this, and they have been struggling off
455
:and on with this one habit that relates
to, ironically enough, we've been talking
456
:about exercise, dieting, that whole realm.
457
:I've had guests on the show, Jim,
that have talked about reinventing
458
:the whole fitness industry.
459
:You might be interested in talking to
them because they would put the ideas
460
:that you just talked about, upside
down, and there'll be like, "Really?
461
:You have that working?", so it's actually
fascinating to hear you say that because
462
:gyms are a perfect example, but I have
somebody that's we're working with right
463
:now, kind of dealing with the same thing
and trying to build that good habit, and
464
:it doesn't mean that it's a good habit.
465
:It's that it's a habit that
we need to build, whether it
466
:is good or bad is the emotion.
467
:I love that you break it down, and
I don't think we often think about,
468
:because if you actually do think about
it, though, the marketing that we
469
:all see is all based on that emotion
too, so it plays right into that.
470
:Jim: Yeah, sure.
471
:No, that's a good insight.
472
:That's absolutely true, and so
BJ has two maxims that he uses.
473
:One is help people feel successful, okay?
474
:Note that he is not saying be successful;
feel successful, and the other one is help
475
:people do what they already want to do.
476
:You're not going to actually form
the habit if you don't want to do it.
477
:If you don't really want to be at
the gym, you're not going to go to
478
:the gym, and if you force yourself,
you're not going to enjoy it.
479
:It's never really going to become a habit.
480
:It might be something you do,
but you're not enjoying it.
481
:You're not getting much out of it.
482
:If you want to work out, find the
ways to work out that help you.
483
:How can you get exercise that
you want to, not just help you,
484
:but that you want to do, right?
485
:It's much easier, and
that's absolutely key.
486
:Joshua: That is, and I think that's
a perfect segue, because this
487
:one piece of your bio as we get
closer to the end really stuck out
488
:to me, and it's about Bob Dylan.
489
:Now, it literally says to me, ask
you anything about Bob Dylan, so I-
490
:Jim: I'd answer.
491
:Joshua: Yeah.
492
:Well, first off, do you know Bob Dylan?
493
:I mean, why Bob Dylan?
494
:Jim: No.
495
:Joshua: Oh no you don't.
496
:Okay.
497
:I thought that you'd be one of these
conversations with be like, "Well,
498
:yeah, I had a chance encounter.
499
:I've been friends with
him for like 50 years.
500
:This has been awesome."
501
:Jim: Yeah, and if I were, I
wouldn't be talking 'cause nobody
502
:who knows him talks about him.
503
:Joshua: Yeah.
504
:Jim: He's a very private man.
505
:Joshua: I want to give you that
honor though, for those that are
506
:younger and never listened to Bob
Dylan, maybe you want to tell a
507
:little bit of who Bob Dylan is.
508
:Jim: Who is Bob Dylan, so I do
actually have a Bob Dylan podcast
509
:called the Dylan Taunts . Believe
it or not, I do Bob Dylan research.
510
:In fact, your audience can't see, but
right behind my head is a book that
511
:recently came out with a ponderous title.
512
:It came out from Rutledge.
513
:I have a chapter in there.
514
:That's a recent one, so I do scholarly
work on Dylan still, and I have a lot of
515
:friends are in that, and I decided to do
a podcast that they can talk about what
516
:they're up to, and it's expanded since
then, and we actually talk to people.
517
:I just did an interview with a
family friend who's 19 years old and
518
:saw Bob Dylan for the first time.
519
:Joshua: Wow.
520
:Jim: So we do people of all ages.
521
:I'm a Gen Xer.
522
:Of course there's a lot of baby boomers.
523
:There's millennials involved.
524
:We have Gen Zers now, so it's been
pretty interesting to sort of bridge
525
:the generational divide, but so who
is Bob Dylan to answer your question?
526
:Bob Dylan is primarily a
songwriter, and musician, and
527
:singer, who started out in the 60s.
528
:1961 was his first album, and he
was doing folk music, and he's often
529
:associated with folk music, but he
branched out very much so into rock
530
:in the mid 60s, and has done rock ever
since and some folk, but I wouldn't
531
:classify him purely as a folk musician.
532
:He is considered perhaps the
greatest songwriter in the world.
533
:He is so amazing as a songwriter,
as a lyricist, that he won
534
:the Nobel Prize 2016, which no
songwriter had ever done before.
535
:Joshua: That's amazing.
536
:Yeah.
537
:Jim: Yeah.
538
:He's a big deal.
539
:There's a reason there's
conferences and books.
540
:Your audience can't see this,
but there's several bookshelves
541
:over there with books of Dylan.
542
:People study him.
543
:They think about him.
544
:They listen to his music.
545
:They go to his concerts.
546
:Each and every one is different.
547
:You can go see him two nights in a row.
548
:He used to do different set lists.
549
:Joshua: Yeah.
550
:Jim: Now he has a static
set list, pretty much.
551
:He might change up one or two songs, but
they can come across very differently.
552
:82 years old.
553
:He still performs.
554
:He just announced some new
dates, and it's amazing.
555
:It's an amazing experience.
556
:It is not a nostalgia experience.
557
:Lots of people go to these
concerts thinking they can hear
558
:a little Bobby Dylan, playing in
the wind on his acoustic guitar.
559
:Yeah.
560
:You will be disappointed.
561
:Joshua: Well, you know-
562
:Jim: He changes everything.
563
:Joshua: Well, I remember when
I was growing up, and they
564
:were talking about Bob Dylan.
565
:I don't think there were Bob Dylan
fans, because I definitely didn't
566
:hear anything on the radio when I
was riding around with my dad's 88
567
:Dodge Ram pickup truck, playing that
sort of music, but I will take your
568
:word for it, Jim, that he was very
successful just being that millennial.
569
:Jim: Amazing, and pretty much
any music you're listening to
570
:now has a Bob Dylan influence.
571
:Even hip hop draws on Bob Dylan.
572
:Joshua: Jim, I have this one
final question and you're
573
:probably going to be like, "Why
the heck are you asking me that?
574
:That's really silly of you.", so I
somehow got a bridge Bob Dylan into
575
:all this conversation that we've had
this last half hour and ask you this.
576
:Do you want to be the Bob
Dylan of the speaking world.
577
:I told you you're going to laugh at it.
578
:Jim: Oh my god.
579
:I don't know if I want to be
the Bob Dylan of anything.
580
:Joshua: Yeah.
581
:Jim: It's a tough life in some ways.
582
:No, I don't want to be the Bob
Dylan of the speaking world.
583
:I want to be the Jim Salvucci
of the speaking world.
584
:I want to get on stages and I
want to help people in my way.
585
:I don't need fame.
586
:I don't need a house in Malibu.
587
:I don't need to sell my speeches
for record amounts, and whatever.
588
:No.
589
:I have no interest in
that different ambition.
590
:Joshua: That was the answer.
591
:That was the answer I was looking
for, so you handled that very well.
592
:I was getting nervous that maybe
if I asked it, you'd be like, "Uh.
593
:Let's kind of avoid that question.",
but you handled that very well.
594
:Be you.
595
:That was the message I got out of
it, so with that said, Jim, we're at
596
:the end of our time, but I want to
give you the last few minutes here.
597
:I know that you do coaching.
598
:You're entering the speaking world.
599
:How can people reach out to you?
600
:If they're interested in contacting
you, maybe they have some questions
601
:being a young leader themselves that
they want to get some assistance with.
602
:Maybe they have some pressing Bob Dylan
questions they want to ask you too.
603
:Jim: You never know.
604
:Joshua: Yeah.
605
:You never know.
606
:You never know.
607
:Actually, I know of one friend, and
if that friend messages me, I will
608
:let you know who that is, but how
can they get in contact with you?
609
:I'll give you the last few minutes.
610
:Jim: Yeah, so I have my website.
611
:My company is Guidance for Greatness, and
my website is guidanceforgreatness.com.
612
:Simple enough.
613
:If you go to the bottom of
the homepage, there is a link.
614
:Just sign in and you can receive
my newly gussied up freebie.
615
:I have a free gift for people and it is
what I call the Transform to Greatness
616
:Toolkit, and it is a way of helping people
guide themselves to great leadership,
617
:starting with an exploration of their
values, and there's five points to it
618
:and each one of them comes complete
with a tiny habit recipe, so you can
619
:actually put things right into practice
and build some habits around it.
620
:Also, I have a newsletter, blog,
and podcast I put out every week.
621
:I just read the newsletter because
some people like to hear it
622
:rather than read it, and that is
called On Leading With Greatness.
623
:It's on Substack and it's at
jimsalvucci.substack.com, and
624
:my last name is S A L V U C C
I, so jimsalvucci.substack.com.
625
:Those are two primary ways to
interface with me, so you can check
626
:out my newsletter and podcast, and
you could also go to my website.
627
:Joshua: Jim, this was a
lot of great conversation.
628
:I think that young leaders definitely need
to be mentored in this world, especially
629
:this world that's ever changing.
630
:That's the mission of even my coaching
business, Your Speaking Voice,
631
:and I think that's so important to
continue this conversation in the
632
:ways in which we can influence and
even navigate through those channels.
633
:I think you gave some really important
advice, and of course, if Bob Dylan
634
:wants to make a appearance and also
sing for us while we're doing that, that
635
:would be just the cream of the crop.
636
:Jim: I would not hold my breath.
637
:Joshua: No.
638
:I am not holding my breath either,
but just in case he falls across this.
639
:Hello, Bob Dylan.
640
:With all that said, Jim, thanks a lot for
being on Speaking from the Heart today.
641
:It was a great honor to have you on.
642
:Jim: I appreciate it, Joshua.
643
:This has been great.
644
:I enjoyed it.
645
:Joshua: I want to thank Jim again for
being part of the show and sharing not
646
:only his experiences as being a leader,
but also understanding that in the
647
:context of the world that we live in,
there are all kinds of different people,
648
:all kinds of different individuals that
we face, whether it's in our personal or
649
:professional, even in our businesses that
we have to address, and sometimes we have
650
:to do calculated risk to determine whether
we should be approaching them head on to
651
:even deal with some of the problems that
they might bring, not only on themselves,
652
:but on others for that matter, and I love
that our conversations circled around
653
:a variety of different themes, because
it also creates this understanding that
654
:it isn't just about one piece of the
overall puzzle that we're looking at.
655
:It's looking at the whole perspective
that we might be the problem.
656
:It isn't just about the individuals
that we interact with, but it might be
657
:something that happens internally with us.
658
:I think that we have to understand,
though, that when we go through
659
:these processes, we go through these
conversations, we have to see it from
660
:all sides, but it doesn't give you
an excuse to be a bully, and I love
661
:that Jim said this exactly during
our interview, that if you bully
662
:your employees, you are incompetent.
663
:I believe we have to think about
that concept a little bit more,
664
:even from what we have discussed
during today's interview, because
665
:it isn't just about our employees.
666
:It's about us.
667
:It's about the things that we sometimes
stuff in a sack, as Jim put it, that we
668
:often hide from the whole entire world
to address, because we have all these
669
:different things happening to us, all
these different aspects of our life that
670
:we might have credence to bully someone
else, it still doesn't give us the free
671
:ticket to do the same, and that always
leads to some disastrous consequences,
672
:especially if you're never thinking
about the other person's perspective.
673
:During the interview, Jim talking
about this made me think about all
674
:the different times in my life,
personally, in which I was bullied.
675
:Growing up, I was teased so much about
my weight, the way that I looked, and
676
:the way that I even handled myself, which
even on this show, I've talked about my
677
:autism diagnosis, and how that has really
changed the game and understanding so
678
:many different perspectives, not only
about myself, but about others as well.
679
:It has helped me to understand a
perspective that oftentimes has
680
:been misunderstood by others, but
at the same token, it has helped me
681
:to learn so much about myself, and
to stop putting things in a sack,
682
:to stop putting things away when I
know that I need to face it head on.
683
:I think of leaders, even Bob Dylan,
which we talked about on the show
684
:today, that helped us to understand
what that looks like, and Bob Dylan
685
:does it through his music; other
people do it through their words.
686
:We have amazing authors, amazing speakers.
687
:We have all kinds of people that do
a variety of different trades, but we
688
:have to learn that sometimes stuffing
it in a sack, hiding it away from the
689
:world to understand what we're going
through, doesn't only hurt ourself,
690
:but it hurts our overall ability
to grow with others, so if we are
691
:bullying, not only are we incompetent,
but we're stunting our growth.
692
:We're unable to move from that big
mountain range that we're stuck
693
:on, being able to climb down.
694
:We're oftentimes left alone, thinking that
we are doing the right things, but people
695
:don't know how to approach us because
of the things that we have been through.
696
:They don't know how to approach us
because we have been through some tough
697
:challenges in our life, but we don't know
how to communicate those effectively,
698
:but that is the key to all of this.
699
:Even at a young age, you have to learn
how to communicate more effectively
700
:so that you never have to go down that
path, which is why I ask my parents on
701
:this show, talk to your children more.
702
:Get them to open up.
703
:Form a relationship, regardless
of how hard it might be.
704
:Get them off their phones.
705
:Get them to talk to you face to face.
706
:It's time to have that conversation
because we're losing a generation
707
:of people, kids for that matter,
that don't know how to communicate.
708
:Thankfully, we have people like Dr.
709
:Savucci that are willing to challenge
the status quo and help other people,
710
:especially at a young age, willing
to learn the skills so that they can
711
:celebrate those successes, but yes.
712
:Those celebrations need to start
small, and grow ever bigger.
713
:The concept of even doing a pushup,
which I can't even do myself,
714
:and I know that I need to go back
in the gym and work out more.
715
:That's something that I'm working
on here in the next few months with
716
:my friends over at Next Generation
Personal Training, but I know that I
717
:need to celebrate those small successes
when I restart my fitness journey.
718
:Even if the things are very
small in nature, and they don't
719
:matter to anyone else, we need
to celebrate them personally,
720
:because the biggest cheerleader
that's in our corner is ourselves.
721
:If we're able to enjoy what we have been
able to achieve, of course it's always
722
:going to build upon itself, and that will
allow us to accomplish things that we
723
:normally will never be able to accomplish.
724
:I know that finding those
moments of enjoyment, that
725
:emotion that we have inside of
ourselves, can be very difficult.
726
:It can be very painful to overcome,
maybe even create that atmosphere of
727
:understanding, having that level of
engagement, having those abilities that
728
:we have to pull out of our sack, and
bring back to the light, and let the
729
:things that are not so good about them,
be bleached by the sun, because if we're
730
:able to do that, if we're able to create
that context in our life in which we are
731
:no longer being viewed as the bully, if
we're able to overcome the things that
732
:we have standing in our way and be able
to lead from the front, we are not just
733
:leaders, but we're also part of a team.
734
:Jim said something very miniscule that I
want to point out that is really important
735
:to this whole entire conversation,
and it's the difference between what
736
:a manager is, and what a leader is.
737
:Now you might have taken his conversation
today to mean more about the workplace
738
:and what's typically involved with
going through that process of having
739
:a manager versus a leader, but this
application also happens in our life.
740
:We have families.
741
:We have friends.
742
:We have people that are personally close
to us that might look at us as a leader,
743
:but sometimes we're playing the role of
a manager, because we're helping them
744
:get through the different obstacles
that are happening in their life.
745
:It's important to wear not just the
manager hat in our lives, but also the
746
:leader hat, because if we're able to do
both of those, not only are we able to
747
:push ourselves forward, not only are we
able to create that important context,
748
:not only are we able to demonstrate
that we're effective in what we're
749
:supposed to be doing and what we're
supposed to be creating, we are able to
750
:find things in our life that not only
give us moments of enjoyment, but also
751
:engagement of the emotion, the living
essence of why we as human beings thrive.
752
:Twelve years ago, I made a decision to
join Toastmasters, which for my longterm
753
:listeners, you know what it's all about,
but for those that are just joining,
754
:Toastmasters is an amazing organization.
755
:It's international; across the world.
756
:If you're ever interested in checking out
Toastmasters, go to www.toastmasters.org,
757
:and I'll leave a link in the episode
notes in which you can check out
758
:a club that's closest to you.
759
:Dr.
760
:Ralph Smedley, the founder of that
organization, always said that we learn
761
:best in the moments of enjoyment, and
I've been challenged even recently in
762
:one of my Toastmaster clubs to challenge
that status quo, to keep on moving my
763
:needle forward, especially with the
new generation, especially with the new
764
:members of our club that know nothing
about what Toastmasters really stands for.
765
:This is a moment that has
come full circle for me.
766
:I have been a manager and I have
been a leader, but I have never
767
:been a manager and leader at the
same time like I am right now for
768
:my very club that I belong to.
769
:It has been something that I have really
enjoyed, but at the same time, it has
770
:gotten me emotional about why it's so
important to be able to lead, to be
771
:able to communicate, to not be a bully,
because there was a lot of bullying that
772
:was happening at this particular club,
but now the status quo has been changing
773
:because now they have seen the light.
774
:They have seen the opportunities that
even if you celebrate very small,
775
:which is what we do in Toastmasters,
we're able to create that enjoyment
776
:where it really counts the most.
777
:I know that it's so easy for us on a daily
basis to just stuff the things that have
778
:really hurt us, and have really truly
caused pain and frustration, into a sack.
779
:Putting it behind a wall.
780
:Just deleting it, especially if it's an
email that we don't like, but sometimes
781
:those are the things that we need to read.
782
:That is the feedback that we often
times need to receive in order to
783
:keep moving, to keep growing, to keep
being the best versions of ourselves.
784
:Remember that when you do something
right, it's okay to celebrate it.
785
:Even those very small things can
make all the difference in terms
786
:of not only what you're creating,
but also what you're enjoying.
787
:What we have as an experiment happening
in America, and all across the world,
788
:which has been happening since human
civilization began, is how we connect with
789
:each other, through storytelling, music,
folklore, all kinds of other things.
790
:I can understand why Dr.
791
:Salvucci really likes Bob Dylan, and
why he enjoys listening and learning
792
:more about Bob Dylan's success.
793
:It's really simple if you think about it.
794
:It's a passion.
795
:It's something that we can
all come together around.
796
:We can enjoy those moments, even if
it's around music: rock and roll,
797
:folk music, regardless of what it is.
798
:We don't have to be bullies
when it comes to a commonality.
799
:We don't have to stuff that away.
800
:We can be loud and be very proud
of these types of things to
801
:celebrate, because those are the
things that bring us together.
802
:So if we can do that with music, if we
can do that with writing, if we can do
803
:that with any type of creative adventure,
can't we do it for our leadership?
804
:Can we stop being bullies to each
other and find common ground?
805
:I think this is so timely, especially
in a world that sometimes is
806
:ridiculed, condemned, and complaining
about why society has failed.
807
:We just need to get back to the basics,
and if we can learn how to lead, if we
808
:can learn how to grow, if we can learn
how to even celebrate, trust me on that.
809
:Not only are you going to be
better, we are all going to
810
:be better at the same time.
811
:Thanks for listening to episode
number 136 of Speaking From the
812
:Heart, and I look forward to
hearing from your heart very soon.
813
:Outro: Thanks for listening.
814
:For more information about our podcast
and future shows, search for Speaking From
815
:The Heart to subscribe and be notified
wherever you listen to your podcasts.
816
:Visit us at www.yourspeakingvoice.biz
for more information about potential
817
:services that can help you create
the best version of yourself.
818
:See you next time.
