Hi there and a very warm welcome to Season 5 Episode 48 of People Soup – it’s Ross McIntosh here. 

P Soupers - I'm delighted to introduce you to Dr Sarah Pegrum. Sarah is a clinical psychologist, peer reviewed ACT trainer, Curator of the ACT BODY Project and Author of the book - Break the Binds of Weight Stigma. Free Yourself from Body Image Struggles Using Acceptance and Commitment Therapy.

In this episode - you'll find out a bit more about Sarah - in particular three pivotal moments in her life - which involved being told she wasn't enough, the loss of her mother, discovering ACT, moving from Australia to Canada and realising that she was hiding from the world AND feeling disconnected and unfulfilled and of course she shares what she did in response to that realisation. You'll also hear Sarah's song choice. Now - P-Soupers - at times the sound quality isn't perfect - I've tried every which way to enhance the recording for your listening pleasure, including a sound engineer - Soooo just a reminder there is a transcript if you don't catch every word and at one point - I do jump in and repeat Sarah's words - just so you don't miss out on her inspirational story due to a fade in the recording.

People Soup is an award winning podcast where we share evidence based behavioural science, in a way that’s practical, accessible and fun. We're all about sharing the ingredients for a better work life from behavioural science and beyond.

There is a transcript for each episode. There is a caveat - this transcript is largely generated by Artificial Intelligence, I have corrected many errors but I won't have captured them all! You can also find the shownotes by clicking on notes then keep scrolling for all the useful links.

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REmaster

[00:00:06] Authenticity

[00:00:36] There was far less thinking. Like I didn't have to be like, okay, how's this person going to respond? What are they going to think? And how do I move accordingly? Okay. It was very much, I'm going to be myself. And whatever comes from that, I'll deal with it.

[00:00:51] Ross: Peasoopers, I'm delighted to introduce you to Dr. Sarah Pegram. Sarah is a clinical psychologist, Peer reviewed Act trainer, curator of the Act Body Project, and author of the book, break the Binds of Weight Stigma Free Yourself From Body Image Struggles using Acceptance and Commitment Therapy.

[00:01:31] And of course, she shares what she did in response to that realisation.

[00:01:53] And at one point I do jump in and repeat Sarah's words. Just so that you don't miss out on her inspirational [00:02:00] story. Due to a fade in the recording.

[00:02:37] Our mission is to unlock workplace potential with expert perspectives from contextual behavioral science.

[00:03:11] When I first experienced ACT with you, Ross, I was blown away by how you joined us on the journey. I hadn't experienced that before and I loved it. Looking forward to the next episode. And Rose Horton Smith on Instagram said, What a fabulous episode and collaboration. So excited to hear more.

[00:03:39] The more you make noise about the podcast, the more people we have the potential to reach. So thank you so much. Now, P Supers, you might have heard the new bookmarks have landed. Each review that's read out on the show will receive a couple of our freshly designed bookmarks dispatched by my dad in the Global Distribution Center in the Northeast Powerhouse.

[00:04:09] You're helping more people find us and all that useful people soup stuff.

[00:04:30] So, for now, get a brew on and have a listen to part one of my chat with the wonderful Sarah Pegram.

[00:04:44] Sarah: Thank you for having me.

[00:05:02] Sarah: Ah.

[00:05:07] Sarah: Yeah, that's, that's, that's fair, like the anxiety is, oof, what dirt is going to be brought up?

[00:05:32] While completing her degrees, she worked as a drug and alcohol counsellor in Melbourne and as a community mental health specialist in Tasmania. How are we doing so far, Sarah?

[00:05:46] Ross: Excellent! In 2008, Sarah moved to Newfoundland in Canada where she provided individual and group therapy as well as the development and evaluation of an outpatient eating disorder programme. [00:06:00] moved into private practice, seeing people with a variety of struggles and diagnoses, including eating disorders, body image issues, anxiety, and trauma.

[00:06:33] Congratulations! Chapeau!

[00:06:36] Ross: There's more! There's more, folks! Sarah is also an author. After more than 15 years of researching and working in the field of eating disorders and body image, she wrote the book Break the Binds of Weight Stigma. Free Yourself from Body Image Struggles Using Acceptance and Commitment Therapy. be one of our core topics for today.

[00:07:12] The research department said, You're looking to explore a former interest by returning to a role as a skater coach and referee. in roller derby, where your former name, I'm well informed, was Tazzy Devil.

[00:07:40] Ross: Well, they say that you're lined up to be a master coach for the Canadian Roller Derby Society, but

[00:07:50] Ross: But actually, can I confess an ignorance here, Sarah? I'm not really sure what roller derby is. Could you explain it to a novice?[00:08:00]

[00:08:23] And they're on roller skates basically beating each other up, so that's, you know, sort of they're trying to help a team mate get through, the pack of players. And so they, they beat each other up. was a sport that, was kicking around a number of years ago and then it kind of laid dormant for a while.

[00:08:58] But, it brought out this, uh, there was a funness to it, there was an aggression to it, there was a camaraderie to it, uh, there was so much, like it was a really amazing community and there were people that I met in that community that I probably wouldn't have come across in any other way, but, uh, it was really, really good community to be a part of and I'm still friends with many of the people that I met during those years.

[00:09:25] Ross: feel informed, including my pronunciation. Derby, not

[00:09:33] Ross: I did, you know what, I was going to check that with you before we started and I just thought, you don't want to seem like a complete idiot, Ross, but I wish I had now. Because I was saying Darby.

[00:10:00] So, Derby, Derby, like, I'm not sure if it's a contextual, depending where in the world you are, that it gets pronounced differently.

[00:10:29] Sarah: absolutely. I'll give it a, I'll give it a shot. It's very like a broad kind of question we've got there. And so I guess like sort of your research department has found is I'm originally from Australia and I was quite a shy child, kind of anxious temperament growing up and somewhere along the line I kind of learned to be scared of being seen.

[00:11:16] And I wanted to, part of that was I wanted to go back to the UK, I'm a first generation Australian, so I wanted to go see, you know, my roots, basically.

[00:11:26] Sarah: And at that time, there was a number of people in my life who came forward and were like, are you sure you want to do that? You're too quiet, not smart enough, and all of those kinds of messages.

[00:12:10] to make it happen.

[00:12:11] Sarah: And I think that was a pivotal point because I could have, and there's probably times in my life where I would have listened to what other people said around me and been like, yeah, you're right. I'm, I'm probably not smart enough. I'm probably not outgoing enough. I'm probably not enough to, to go on that pathway.

[00:12:49] Ross: Blimey, Sarah, aestro pivotal, and that feels, wow, fundamental.

[00:13:02] Ross: And it sounds like it was at an age where perhaps we do tend to listen to those other people in our lives a bit more, but something was driving you.

[00:13:22] Ross: Gosh, well I'm so glad you did. I come fresh from the experience of reading your book, which we're going to come on to, but I'm so glad you did, because I think that's, obviously part of the journey. So what, what happened next?

[00:13:57] And it was, you know, later on in [00:14:00] my postgraduate, early into my career, I hit another pivotal point. So I'd say there's kind of three pivotal points in my life, and this was the second one. And it wasn't, happening at once, it was kind of a culmination over a couple of years. So, um, yeah. And so, later in my university career, early into my, working career, I found out my mother had lung cancer, and nine months later she passed away. And many of your PSUpers would probably kind of realise or have experienced themselves that that kind of loss can really turn your world absolutely upside down. And that's exactly what it did for me. Like, I really, really struggled with the pain and watching my mum struggle. And then, you know, with the loss, it was very overwhelming for me.

[00:14:59] But looking back now, it's like, like, of course, you poor thing. Like, And, uh, so I was creating a lot of reflection, and interestingly enough, around that time I was actually introduced to ACT, and I was introduced to ACT by my supervisor, and I remember her doing like this physicalization of my, my pain at that point, so she got me to kind of close my eyes and, you know, breathe and, and try and find where I was feeling the grief in my body, Does it have a color? Does it have a texture? And kind of continued on with that, that exercise. And to this day, I remember even though it was many, many years ago, and it was so transformative for me. It didn't make my grief go away. It didn't take the pain away, but it allowed me to hold it in a way that That, I wasn't getting swept up in it. I could still have it, it was still there, understandably so, but I wasn't getting swept [00:16:00] up in it, I could move in the face of it. So that allowed me to kind of move through and work through my grief and continue to carry on with my life even though I was still processing what had happened.

[00:16:13] Life is short

[00:16:22] What do you want it to be about? I realized that the path I was on at that moment wasn't my path. It wasn't a bad path, it just wasn't my path. It wasn't true to me. And so I was like, I need to make a few changes in my life. And I made a few changes, and part of those changes was I applied for a job in Canada. So I'd been to Canada a few years previously and said if the right job comes up at the right time, I'd consider coming back. So I applied for the job. Okay, why not? But, uh, things don't move quickly. And there was a bit of a delay between me applying for the job and me getting the job. So in that delay, some of the other changes I'd made in my life had kind of come to fruition and I was feeling a little bit more settled.

[00:17:11] Sarah: I wasn't feeling as restless. I need to up and go. I'd created some changes. So now I was left with this big decision of Do I stay in Australia or do I go to Canada? And I did what many people do when faced with such a big decision. They do the whole pros and cons, benefits and costs to all of it. And I kept coming back to that pros and cons.

[00:18:17] So I'm like, what on earth do I do? This is not a decision that I can do in a half way. Like I can't compromise this. I either stay or I go. So I decided to flip a coin and it was heads I go, tails I stay. It came up heads and that was it. I committed and it's like, that's it. I'm going to Canada. And that was about 16 years ago now.

[00:18:49] Sarah: I used to say sort of like it's a, cause some people be like, Oh, you're so brave for doing that. I'm like, I think I'm being called brave because it did land in my favor. If it had have gone horribly wrong, I probably would have been called stupid. but I think I had done all the thinking. Like I knew deep down whether I'd stayed or I went, I was going to make it work.

[00:19:17] Let's see which path you're on. it worked out for me, but I don't know if it'd be a way of making decisions that I'd recommend.

[00:19:45] Sarah: It's very powerful. It usually comes from a place of, I notice a feeling of not being happy. I wouldn't say like depressed, but more of just not feeling happy, something not feeling right. It's not that things in my life are [00:20:00] horribly wrong or horribly bad, but something's not feeling right. I'm feeling disconnected.

[00:20:19] Ross: P Supers, I'm just popping up here to repeat those last important questions from Sarah. She said, that's kind of like, that's when there's a moment where there's a reflection of what's going on. Why are you feeling this way? Are you disconnected from what's important to you?

[00:20:36] So I guess with that coin toss, I'm still intrigued. If it had come up tails, which meant you stay, could that have been revealing your response to that? Might it have been, Oh, it hasn't come up with the right answer.

[00:20:54] Sarah: Yeah. I've heard people sort of say that as though, you know, if you put a decision on tossing a coin, And your reaction will kind of determine where your heart's desires were. So if I had a, if it had have gone the other way, I may have been like, Oh, not sure about that. Maybe let's do best out of three or something like that.

[00:21:23] Sarah: Yeah. Moved in 2008. Did not, I, I'd been to Canada before, but, uh, it was mainland Canada and Newfoundland is kind of a little island tucked on the end. And I only joined Canada just over 60 years ago. And it's part of Canada, but it has its own unique, culture. It's a lovely, lovely place. but when I was like, okay, I'm moving to Canada, Newfoundland is a very different experience.

[00:22:11] Ross: Oh, that's giving me goosebumps.

[00:22:18] Sarah: It seems like there's a little inner compass that can like goes off at times of, oh, you're not heading in the right direction. Oh, no. You are on the right direction right now.

[00:22:30] Sarah: Yes.

[00:22:38] Sarah: I think there was always a, like I said, a trust that I'd make it work. And in my head I was also like, if it doesn't work, if you go over there and you absolutely hate it, then stay for the time that you have to stay, because it was a contract kind of position, and then you can always come back home, and you'll be coming home with international experience, which is going to look good on your resume.

[00:23:15] Ross: Lovely, lovely, thank you. So, tell us more. Was there another pivotal moment

[00:24:31] Being seen

[00:24:38] She's, she's one of the key ones in this. Combined with people in my own life, they helped me overcome and the way they did that was they saw me and not only did they see me, the way they made me feel was just so powerful. So, I'm not sure if you've had the experience where you find like a coffee shop or a food place that's kind of like a hidden gem.

[00:25:19] It's like, that's such a nice, warm feeling. And in being seen in that way, I started to step outside of my comfort zone, and I started to be more vulnerable around other people. And in doing so, the connections I formed changed. And they were beautiful connections, and the warmth attached to them, and it just helped me break free.

[00:25:42] Sarah: And it made me realize that, yes, the hiding and not being seen keeps you protected, but But it's also meaning that you miss out on these kinds of connections, and seeing and meeting all these people. You don't get this when you're hiding. So it [00:26:00] created, it created that openness and willingness of, I'm willing to go through that discomfort of, I'm going to be seen and potentially judged.

[00:26:49] Ross: Wow, thank you for unpacking that for us. It's super powerful to hear you speak, the, and the contact with the ACBS community. community and feeling, feeling seen in a, in a safe and supportive way. And of course, working with the badass herself, our friend Ricky. Yeah, I can imagine. Well, from personal experience, the impact from Ricky and Crikey.

[00:27:20] Sarah: It would have been, I think the, the, the rumbling started happening, I'd say about 2018. And that was when more of the, I'm not feeling contented and smaller steps happened. And the biggest steps happened, I'd say, it was more the following year and the year after. I need to just be me.

[00:27:56] Sarah: like, they're, they're definitely the, the biggest steps. I think the [00:28:00] smallest steps was in each and every day interactions, so every day it'd be showing up differently and bringing myself into the everyday interactions more so. And that played out at work. So at work, before it was very much, there was psychologist Sarah, and then there'd be outside Sarah. And outside Sarah was not allowed in and that was kind of consistent with kind of the training that we went through.

[00:28:53] So the different clo I'd wear different clothing. My hair changed. I don't, you know, usually, I think years ago, my hair would fit. More of the normal colours, currently it is green, uh, I used to, I have tattoos, I used to cover up my tattoos, now if it's warm weather I, I don't cover it up, and it was very much me just bringing my authentic self to work, and just noticing the impact of that, and it felt more liberating for me, and I felt like I could connect with my clients in a authentic way.

[00:29:47] Ross: I love the way you describe it, It's quite counter training. I do coaching and again it's more of a blank slate, but I think that creates barriers between [00:30:00] Me as a coach or you as a, a clinical psychologist and your clients, and we want to level that playing field and say, look, I'm human too, is my view.

[00:30:29] You're starting to be a doctor. You need to dress accordingly.

[00:30:44] but B, I'm immediately going to alienate myself from the person that I'm trying to connect with. So I didn't feel comfortable with that level of have to be professional, but there was a certain level that I'd struck for a number of years where it's like, I'm being professional, but it's still more of a masked version of me. And in more recent years, it's, this is who I am. I, I'm colorful. I love colors.

[00:31:25] Ross: mm

[00:31:33] Ross: It's tremendously powerful to hear you talk and thank you for articulating it in the way you do, because I think it's a, it's something for us all to reflect on. And it's easier to be ourselves.

[00:31:47] Sarah: I think that's the other part of it. As much as I, I wouldn't say I'm lazy, but I'd say I'm selective in my energy output. So if there's an option to reduce how much energy [00:32:00] I'm putting on things, especially if it's not giving me much in return, then I'm going to take it. And I found like the more I let go of having to play a role or put a mask and just brought my authentic self, it was, it was easier.

[00:32:32] Ross: Hmm. Beautiful. So Sarah, thank you for being so open and honest and role modeling for us how we can be in the world in each moment. I love that. And thinking about your role model, it makes me think of you, your courageous self, and that phrase, your willingness to be seen. I'd love to find a bit more about the Act Body project.

[00:33:21] Sarah: catching the facial expression as soon as you say it. There was like a, oh yeah, the ACT Body Project definitely embodies kind of being seen and being courageous. So I am someone who tends to be creative. I like things that are a little bit different.

[00:34:25] So I had to strip down to just a bikini and I had her kind of paint that message on the front of me of, I am more than my body. And this is, this took a couple of hours to do. So during that time, she is very much. in my personal space. So there was a vulnerability that, that came with that of having someone that close.

[00:35:08] And it's sort of, I'm fierce, I'm feisty, this, I'm funky, this is who I am. And so that was the first part of the, the body, the body act project. So it was combining my values and putting it on my body and making it kind of more of an embodied experience. And from there I contacted a photographer and we went to a local place, uh, nearby and I'm kind of right by the ocean, a rocky beach right by the ocean, and I liked that place because it kind of captured that raw fierceness of what I was feeling.

[00:36:29] being seen, even just doing that process of having the artist and then having the photographer and then going into a public place and, and doing it. And then I did the extra step of, okay, let's put this online. So it is on my website and it's also on my social. So this, this image of, this is me.

[00:37:11] Wow. So Sarah, the moment has come.

[00:37:19] Ross: A standard peace suit feature is your song choice. This would be a song that announces your arrival into a room for the next few weeks.

[00:37:37] So, what would that song be, Sarah?

[00:38:27] Ross: Give me goosebumps.

[00:38:32] Ross: so. So lovely, I love that.

[00:38:58] Now folks, peacekeepers, we need your help. You could support us and help us reach more people with this behavioral science. So,

[00:39:06] you enjoyed this episode of the podcast, we'd love you to do three things.

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[00:39:55] Sarah: you picking up [00:40:00] on that in the background?

[00:40:02] Sarah: Okay, good. Like, one of my cats is just playing with something.

[00:40:09] Ross: I'm I'm not, not, but thank you, thank you so much for