Welcome back to How to Be a Better DM.

Today, I sit down with Andre Clayton, founder of Foundry VTT to chat about VTTS, virtual D&D sessions, and AI.

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Welcome back to How to be a Better DM, the

official podcast of Monsters.Rent.

2

I'm your host today, Justin Lewis.

3

Today we are going to talk about how to

weave better stories for yourself and your

4

players playing Dungeons and Dragons.

5

And today we are probably going to be

talking about doing that online, because

6

today I have a very special guest.

7

I'm joined by Andrew Clayton of the

Foundry VTT team.

8

So how's it going, Andrew?

9

doing great.

10

Thank you so much, Justin.

11

I really appreciate the invitation to join

the show.

12

And I'm looking forward to chatting with

you and your community about a topic that

13

I care a lot about.

14

Excellent.

15

Uh, let's, let's dive right in.

16

Um, first let's give the listener, if

they're not familiar with Foundry or, uh,

17

VTTs in general, or you yourself, Andrew

Clayton, um, you know, give the listener

18

just a brief background of all of those

things, uh, as far as you see fit.

19

Sure, happy to do that.

20

So Foundry Virtual Tabletop is a software

for playing games like D&D, including D&D,

21

but many games as well, online in a

self-hosted virtual tabletop environment

22

where we have a pretty unique business

model.

23

It's a one-time purchase with a perpetual

license.

24

So you as the game master can purchase the

software, and then you own it.

25

forever and you get all of the updates we

release to the software.

26

Your players don't have to purchase the

software.

27

You just connect via a web browser.

28

So it's all web-based.

29

It's built using modern web technologies.

30

And one of our proudest and strongest

attributes is our very developer-friendly

31

API that allows for the development of

modules and systems that augment.

32

the software.

33

And that's what allows Foundry to have so

many different game systems supported,

34

like over 250 different game systems that

you can play on Foundry and over 2,500

35

different modules that you can install

that expand or augment or enhance the

36

functionality of the software in some way

or another.

37

And so we're a tool that's really designed

to allow GMs to tell powerful and

38

immersive and memorable

39

stories with a really high level of

production value using a lot of great

40

tooling that lets you deliver experiences

that really bring your player into the

41

action and really help enhance their

imagination or comprehension of a scene

42

that you're, that you're depicting.

43

And, yeah, and we love building the

software.

44

I am the original creator of the software.

45

But now there's a whole team of us

involved in making Foundry VTT.

46

And we've got all kinds of projects that

were involved in, in addition to making

47

the core software with regards to content

partnerships with amazing publishers like

48

Paizo, we're just releasing Kingmaker for

Foundry VTT right now for Pathfinder 2E.

49

We've got some other really big projects

that are ongoing or underway or coming out

50

soon.

51

We've got a brand new version of the

software that we're working on creating.

52

So we're very, very busy and yeah, you

know, we're up to a whole lot, but

53

Um, if you're not familiar with Foundry,

the best place to start is at our website,

54

which is foundryvtt.com.

55

And on the homepage, there's a nice sort

of, uh, introductory video that gives you

56

like a, uh, an introductory tour to, to

everything that Foundry has to offer.

57

And, uh, that's probably a great place to

start if you're not already familiar, but

58

I hope it's something that many of you

already use or know about or are thinking

59

about and, and for those of you who

aren't,

60

familiar with it yet.

61

I hope you discover it to be something

that is a godsend to you that can really

62

help you and your groups if you find

yourself playing online.

63

Or in person.

64

It can be good for that too.

65

Yeah, actually, it is a great software if

you use Battlemaps, but you use like TV

66

screens or things like that as the

Battlemaps.

67

That's a great way to pair it in person.

68

Our listener can range from, you know,

never been a DM and they're preparing to

69

be a DM to people who have reached out to

me saying, yeah, they played, you know,

70

first edition D&D and they've kind of been

doing it this whole time.

71

So I'm curious and I'm sure they're

curious too.

72

What sparked the idea for Foundry and what

made you actually decide to make it happen

73

because that's a very long road in between

those two instances.

74

Yeah, so I guess most of my life I've been

really involved in gaming, both tabletop

75

computer gaming.

76

I think that's an important background

that leads me a little bit to the software

77

side of things.

78

And I've always had sort of tech hobby

projects going on, something or other.

79

And so it was several years ago in...

80

2018 that I found myself kind of in

between projects and the gaming group I

81

was playing with, we were thinking about

starting a new campaign and we had

82

historically been playing on using some

other online tools because we played

83

remotely, we played online and you know,

we'd had a good but not great experience

84

with other products and you know, there

were a lot of things that kind of I as the

85

DM of that

86

group really wished, like, oh, I wish I

could do this, or, oh, it would be so cool

87

if I could do this, or wouldn't it be

awesome if, like, when we were exploring

88

these maps, I could do this other thing?

89

And all of those ideas just kind of built

up to a point where I was like, well,

90

maybe I'll try putting something together.

91

And it was a sort of good moment of

opportunity where web technologies were at

92

a place of some

93

maturity, some, some technologies had

reached a place where they were really

94

good choices to work with.

95

So, you know, modern HTML, canvas, web GL,

um, new, you know, new JavaScript

96

features, web sockets, uh, you know, I, I

won't get into the, the gory technical

97

details aside from to say like a lot of

the building blocks to make a good VTT

98

were available to, you know, to work with.

99

And it was sort of a matter of thinking

about what would

100

be a good way to formulate the software

and my ideas in a way that could take

101

advantage of those technologies and really

harness their potential.

102

And so Foundry was born pretty quickly

after that because it turned out that it

103

actually was really working to put these

ideas into practice and start putting

104

something together.

105

And before long, there was kind of a

viable prototype.

106

And then I faced some very serious...

107

decisions about like how seriously do I

want to pursue this because not only, you

108

know, was it something that was looking

very promising for me and what I wanted,

109

but it turns out that as I was sharing it

around, you know, a little friend group

110

and, you know, everyone's response to it

was very positive.

111

And so I had to decide like, well, you

know, maybe I should see how many people

112

are interested in this.

113

So I started a Patreon membership where I

could share details about the project.

114

you know, people started following along

and staying tuned and being interested and

115

really engaged with what I was doing.

116

And, uh, and everything really grew from

there.

117

And I think, um, you know, as, as terrible

118

for a lot of people, um, you know, the

timing kind of did, I guess, work out a

119

little bit for, for this project, at least

that, you know, there I was kind of

120

a year and a half, two years into

development of this new thing and suddenly

121

everyone's kind of thinking, oh, maybe we

need to start playing online now.

122

And so that kind of helped to really grow

the community around Foundry and bring a

123

lot of people to the community.

124

And yeah, the rest is history, I guess, as

they say, the launch of the product went

125

well and so I started growing the team and

now there's, there's nine of us that,

126

that developed the core Foundry software

and then probably another nine or 10

127

beyond that are working on various content

related projects.

128

So it's been a whirlwind couple of years

going from just this being an idea for my

129

own group to a business with employees and

full-time everyone.

130

And yeah, it's been a big change in my

life and a really exciting one.

131

And I'm really thankful that I...

132

you know, got a little bit lucky, you

know, sort of right place, right idea,

133

right time, but also had the, you know,

the courage to kind of go after it and see

134

what I could do.

135

I'll tell you, so I used to do, this isn't

my first podcast.

136

It's not even my second.

137

Um, my first podcast was a personal

development podcast and I, we often talked

138

about business and I'll tell you hearing

your story a little bit, definitely.

139

I have the edge to kind of dig into that,

but we might have to do that off screen

140

or, or something.

141

Um, but 2020 aside, right?

142

We all know that, uh, the world was

basically waiting at home for

143

2020 to end that year and twiddling our

thumbs.

144

And so we all, you know, played online

D&D.

145

But now why should someone consider online

D&D and or, sorry, not and or, but, you

146

know, add it to the list of things that

they should do instead of just doing

147

in-person.

148

Does that make sense?

149

Mm-hmm, it does.

150

I mean, I think I'd start by saying, if

you have an in-person group that you love

151

and that meets regularly and that you have

a great relationship with the people at

152

the table, cherish that, do not let it go.

153

You have something special and be thankful

for that.

154

That doesn't mean you can't play online or

you.

155

can't also play online with other friends

or another group or anything else, but I

156

would be wrong to sort of disavow the

magic of the in-person experience.

157

But the reality is that's not practical

for everyone.

158

And there's so many more reasons why

playing in person doesn't work out than

159

reasons why it does.

160

The timing doesn't work or the location

doesn't work or.

161

You don't actually like the people that

much or you're not really vibing and

162

you're not wanting to tell the same sort

of stories.

163

And it turns out that there's people

online that do wanna tell the same sort of

164

stories that you do, that you do have a

great relationship with where your

165

schedule does match up with.

166

And the only thing that doesn't match is

you just don't happen to live in the same

167

town.

168

And so, I think the thing to ask yourself

is...

169

how important is the location bit versus

all of the other things that go into

170

having an amazing role-playing experience?

171

And sometimes the stars line up and

everything works out that in-person group

172

is, that's the dream, I think.

173

But there's lots of great reasons to look

online, to find the right kind of game for

174

you, the right game system for you, the

right time to play, the right at-table

175

expectations or tone or storytelling.

176

And those are things that are a lot easier

to find when you have the whole universe

177

of TTRPG players to, you know, to connect

with and to draw from, then, then just who

178

happens to live down the street.

179

So, um, yeah, I mean, I guess that's kind

of part of the way I think about it, but,

180

you know, I would also say that for groups

that maybe have the choice, like we could

181

do either, or, you know, um, I think that

the experience of playing online is a

182

little bit different.

183

It leans into some things a little bit

more heavily and it

184

maybe shies away from some things a little

bit more heavily.

185

And so I do think it is subtly, but

importantly, a little bit of a different

186

game experience.

187

And I think that that's something that

suits people very well.

188

It's also something that can cause

frustration to people and maybe just like

189

that mode of play isn't for you.

190

And so if you've tried it, you probably

know which camp you're in.

191

And if you haven't, then, you know, I

think it's interesting to discover like,

192

what the differences are and what you like

about it and what you don't.

193

And of course, the quality of your

experience will depend a lot on the

194

people, the platform, the story.

195

So, you know, it's hard to judge anything

like this is for me or this isn't for me,

196

but it's nuanced in a lot of ways.

197

I couldn't agree more, honestly, just

198

of playing D&D or tabletop games as far as

a DM, maybe not the biggest hurdle, but

199

definitely the first hurdle is finding

players, first of all, getting people to

200

say, yeah, I'd love to play with you.

201

And I mean, logically, like you said, when

you open up your field to anyone, you're

202

going

203

right, who has connection to the internet.

204

It makes it a lot easier to find people.

205

And actually to that end, I would

recommend to the listener, you should work

206

on being good at both versions of

gameplay, right, in person or online and

207

work at enjoying both because if you can

do that, you will always be able to find

208

players and campaigns and stuff like it's

just a better way to be rather than

209

limiting yourself to one or the other.

210

in my personal opinion.

211

So you did mention there are nuances to

both online and in person.

212

And I actually wanted to talk about that,

dig in a little bit.

213

So what would you say are some of the

challenges that you might have to overcome

214

when doing online play?

215

And what are some really cool things that

you can do online that you can't do or

216

maybe would be really awkward or weird to

do in person?

217

you're probably gonna have to cut me off

at some point because I bet I could talk

218

about this for hours.

219

I think about this a lot because it really

informs in a large sense, like what is it

220

that we're trying to build?

221

What is our product and who is it for and

why?

222

Because it's very difficult to do

everything and.

223

You know, if you try and be everything for

everybody, you probably aren't going to

224

really succeed at, you know, at whatever

your main focus is or your core mission

225

is.

226

So, in the interest of time, I guess my

answer will be from the perspective of

227

Foundry Virtual Tabletop.

228

But I will say that like, that answer is

not the universal answer for playing

229

online.

230

That's just my answer with respect to the

software that we make.

231

Um, I think that playing online is really

fascinating because it changes a lot of

232

the expectations for the game master in

an, in a, in a meaningful way in terms of

233

expectations around preparation,

expectations around capacity to improvise

234

expectations around what happens when the

players go off script.

235

Um,

236

I think that one of the things about

playing online, especially in Foundry, is

237

it's such a fantastic platform for visual,

auditory, immersive storytelling.

238

It really leans into the fact that when

you're digital, you have all of these

239

amazing assets that you can draw from maps

and artwork and portraits and tokens and

240

music.

241

And all of these things can...

242

help you tell your story in a way that is

so visually engaging and immersive.

243

But part of what happens as a result of

that is that there is like a little bit of

244

expectation sometimes to like prepare all

of those things.

245

You know, it's one thing to say like, oh,

I have a collection of 75,000 tokens.

246

It's probably about what I have.

247

you know, in terms of like individual

images of like different creatures or

248

characters that you can use, but the

pressure to like prepare, you know, which

249

ones are we going to use or which maps are

ready to go or which pieces of artwork are

250

the ones that we're using this week.

251

There's, there can be kind of just more

expectation on the GM sometimes to set

252

those things up and to do prep work before

the session than there is when you're just

253

playing in person and like.

254

everyone kind of knows you're not gonna

have those things.

255

You're not gonna have the beautiful

printout map, maybe every once in a while,

256

but usually no.

257

You're not gonna have the perfect mini for

every creature that you encounter.

258

You're not gonna have this beautiful

illustrated artwork that you put up on the

259

wall for every scene that your party

explores.

260

And so the expectations just shift a

little bit.

261

And I think this is something that...

262

some GMs really lean into because they

love the idea that like, this is my hobby

263

and I'm happy to prep six hours for a four

hour session because I freaking love it.

264

And I just like want that moment of those

four hours with my friends to be like just

265

amazing.

266

But that's not for everybody and it

doesn't have to be and it shouldn't be,

267

but you know, I think like there is a.

268

And I don't want anyone to get the wrong

idea about our software.

269

Like there's nothing inherently about

Foundry that requires you to spend that

270

amount of time preparing for a game

session.

271

But it is sort of like the social contract

that exists online with so many artists

272

making amazing artwork and musicians

making music and putting it all at your

273

fingertips.

274

It sort of is like raising the bar and

raising the stakes about...

275

what's available to you and therefore like

what you might be expected to, to engage

276

with or to prepare to present to your

players.

277

And so it's a really interesting paradox.

278

I think that like with that increased

power comes sort of increased obligation

279

and like does playing online make playing

easier?

280

It's complicated.

281

Yes.

282

Question mark.

283

It does.

284

It can, but it also

285

doesn't, and it also can't sometimes,

because it means that you find yourself

286

spending more time on some other things.

287

But maybe the time that you're spending on

prep is time that you're not spending on a

288

long commute to drive to wherever your

game night is or something like that.

289

So there's puts and takes everywhere.

290

But I do think it's really different.

291

And I think that we try and lean into

allowing

292

the sort of most spectacular experience

that they can.

293

And so, you know, we do kind of build a

power tool like for the GM that wants to

294

go that extra mile and do all of that

prep.

295

Like we want to give that game master as

much capability and power as they can

296

handle in the software.

297

And then at the same time, we wanna think

about like, how can we make set up and how

298

can we make things easier and accessible

to people that, you know, any, whether

299

you're, you know.

300

sort of hardcore about that or not.

301

Anything we can make faster and easier and

more approachable is a win for everybody.

302

But yeah, you know, it's just a really

interesting situation where like, because

303

we are that kind of, I guess power tool is

a sort of fair way to think about it.

304

It comes along with a lot of extra, you

know, considerations about like how you

305

use it and the time that you spend with

it.

306

And is that something that you

307

Enjoy or is that something that comes as a

tax to you that makes you feel like

308

you're, you know, you're paying more for

your gaming experience and different

309

people respond different.

310

Those are really interesting points you

bring up.

311

And the first thing that comes to mind is

that you're absolutely right in that it is

312

a power tool, right?

313

Like if you are going to use a VTT, right,

you have already made the decision that

314

you are going to try and go a little bit

more all out than maybe, you know, the

315

average DM.

316

And that's because, and I've said this on

other podcast episodes before, but at its

317

core,

318

a role playing game, right?

319

Like the barest bearer of a role playing

game just consists of a story, people,

320

something to record the story maybe, and

an agreed upon set of rules, right?

321

And I know people who do, you know,

theater of the mind over the phone or on

322

Zoom calls, right?

323

If you're going to use a VTT, then you've

already made that decision to try and make

324

it spectacular.

325

right?

326

And the next thought that comes to my mind

is also, we have so much content that we

327

can consume in the form of, you know,

shows like Critical Role, Dimension 20,

328

High Rollers from the UK, you know, things

like that, that are a little bit more

329

towards that spectacular level and seeing

tools like these VTTs, we do start to

330

think, you know, why can't I do that?

331

So I definitely agree with everything

you're saying.

332

And as far as the accessibility, that was

one thing I did want to

333

So as a technological neophyte, I would

kind of think of VTTs and think, what are,

334

in your opinion, what are the technical

specifications you'd have to have for your

335

computer to just run a VTT fairly well

without technical issues?

336

And what are some ways that you could

hopefully mitigate any technical issues

337

that might pop up?

338

Yeah, sure.

339

Great question.

340

So different VTTs are going to be

different in that regard.

341

Some of them are built using a game engine

like Unreal or Unity where everyone has to

342

install a piece of software.

343

Some are just very lightweight web-based.

344

You just pop onto a website and you go.

345

Foundry is a little bit in the middle, I

would say, in terms of it's not the most

346

lightweight, but it is relatively

lightweight because it's easy for the

347

Game Master to install and everyone else

just joins with a web browser.

348

In terms of our technical system

requirements, they're relatively modest,

349

but because Foundry is a tool that really

leaves it up to the GM, how big do you go?

350

The requirements for people playing do

depend on sort of what...

351

the game master does.

352

So for example, Foundry can do things

like, it can use big like video maps, or

353

it can use map images that are extremely

large, like 16,000 pixel square.

354

But that doesn't mean that everyone can do

that.

355

So like on your laptop or on your

computer, you have a GPU, whether it's

356

integrated or a discrete card.

357

And that GPU has like a maximum size that

it can do.

358

And so, you know, it really does depend a

little bit on what your GM is doing, but

359

for like basic usage, you know, any, any

laptop or PC that you purchased in the

360

last, you know, six or seven years is

going to work just fine with Foundry VTT,

361

um, we're, we don't have a spectacularly

high bar in terms of technical

362

requirements.

363

One of the

364

probably the biggest technical requirement

that we do have that is a struggle for

365

some of our users is the nature of

networking because, we unlike some other

366

platforms, we are self-hosted.

367

That is a blessing, but that is also a

challenge in some ways.

368

What that means is that as the DM, you're

running Foundry on your computer.

369

all of the files that you're using, the

maps, the music, the tokens, it's all

370

stuff that you have right on your

computer.

371

You own your own files and you use your

own files and you own your own data.

372

It's not like some cloud service that

like, if you stop paying for it, you lose

373

it.

374

Or if the website goes down, you can't run

your session because like someone else's

375

website went out.

376

The great thing about it being self-hosted

is

377

you know, you're in control, it's your

computer and you can play as long as your

378

computer is working.

379

And there's something that like is

empowering about that.

380

But it also means that among other things,

your players need to be able to connect to

381

your computer.

382

And we don't actually control your home

wireless network or your home router.

383

And so, you know, we can't solve some

problems for people in terms of like...

384

how your player gets connected to you.

385

We have a lot of support for working

through that and troubleshooting it.

386

It can be as easy as you have to do

nothing.

387

It can be as difficult as you have to go

to your router and add a port forwarding

388

rule.

389

And that is technically daunting to

people.

390

So yeah, there's pros and cons of it.

391

We do have, I should be clear, we do have

a couple of really great partnered hosting

392

service providers where

393

If for whatever reason you don't want to

or can't navigate the technical

394

requirement of hosting Foundry yourself,

you can pay a modest amount and one of our

395

partners will host a server for you that

is always available for you and your

396

friends to log into with zero headaches

attached.

397

But yeah, these are the sorts of things

that are tough to navigate.

398

And it is tough sometimes with...

399

users who might not necessarily

understand, like, why can't you make it

400

just work?

401

And, you know, it's tough to not always

have a great answer to that.

402

It's like, because the Internet is a

little bit complicated and, you know, how

403

traffic gets from one place to another,

it's not as simple as you might think.

404

On the heels of that somewhat technical

question, I think, you know, we're coming

405

down to the end of our talk today.

406

I do want to ask one question before we

sort of wrap up that is also technical,

407

maybe, but what AI is sort of this

buzzword right now, you know, artificial

408

intelligence, all that jazz.

409

AI or generative experiences as it

pertains to VTTs.

410

Yeah, great question.

411

Tough question, I think.

412

generative models are evolving and

improving faster than most of us are able

413

to really comprehend and keep up with.

414

I think the improvements in quality of

output from generative models is really

415

impressive.

416

Now, there are very crucially and very

importantly,

417

issues at play here in terms of how those

results are produced and how we should

418

feel about them.

419

But setting those aside for a moment, and

that is a fairly big but, you know,

420

focusing a little bit more on the

technology itself, I think that generative

421

assets, generative content is inevitably

going to be part of

422

the landscape of role playing.

423

I think it's unavoidable.

424

I think that...

425

you know, there's a certain hallmark of

role playing experiences about, you know,

426

improvisation and collaborative

storytelling and the desire to communicate

427

ideas, creative ideas, quickly in a way

that allows everyone at the table to then,

428

you know, intake those ideas, be inspired

by them, and then respond.

429

And one of the amazing things about

generative, whether it's text or image or

430

video or even audio, the ability for it to

take an idea and then give you something

431

tangible to react to or respond to that

expands upon that idea or heightens it or

432

takes it to a next level of depth.

433

I think there's not.

434

clear answers about how this is going to

work or how it's going to affect the way

435

that people role play, but I think it's

inevitable that it will.

436

The ability for, as the DM, for you to be

in real time, live improvising and say,

437

you walk into the town and there's a

market and in front of the market, there's

438

a juggler who's juggling balls woven of

all of the different elements of magic,

439

fire and frost and...

440

electricity and thunderbolts of force

erupting out and the crowd is watching

441

with rapt attention as a little pickpocket

goes around and takes coins from

442

unsuspecting people's garments.

443

And you're just saying that, and as you're

saying it, an image is displayed of that

444

very scene.

445

Like interpreting voice into prompt and

interpreting prompt into image.

446

and interpreting image into a stimulus

that then comes back to your storytelling

447

and that people can respond to, it's

unbelievably powerful conceptually.

448

And I think it's something that will

change the way that we role play for sure.

449

Now, what's it take to get there?

450

I think, you know, there's technical

challenges to solve, like how would...

451

a technology platform, make it to where

you can have that kind of experience where

452

the GM says the thing and lo and behold,

the image of it appears and everyone's

453

like, I see it now I'm there.

454

How do you get there?

455

Well, there's technical problems to solve.

456

But you know, as I said, there's also, you

know, ethical problems to solve and you

457

know, how that artwork gets generated.

458

is a very contentious and rightfully so

topic.

459

And so I think, you know, while the

technical, the technology problem is one

460

that's very exciting to me, to others,

it's a problem that is not really

461

appropriate to try and, you know, bring to

life until I think some of the, you know,

462

the ethical concerns about.

463

sourcing of training data about generation

of results about, credit or compensation

464

or even consent of the people whose work

has been used to create these results is

465

better handled.

466

And so, we're at the cutting edge of this

stuff and it cuts in addition to being

467

exciting.

468

And so I think, I'm very excited about

where this might lead.

469

Um, but you know, I think it's going to be

a little bit of time until it becomes

470

normative, but I do think it's inevitable

that this is really going to fundamentally

471

alter the way that we play games.

472

Absolutely.

473

I definitely think the world in five, 10

years is going to look a lot more like the

474

Jetsons.

475

Maybe not so much in flying cars or Rosie

the robot, but I don't know.

476

Things are definitely changing.

477

But thank you so much, Andrew, for joining

me on this conversation and talking to my

478

listener here.

479

Before we let you go, can you tell my

listener how can they reach out to you,

480

support you, see what you're up to, and

possibly connect with you?

481

Absolutely.

482

So the best place to start is at

foundryvtt.com.

483

So if you're not familiar with our

software yet, that's the best place to go.

484

If you are familiar or you want to get

more involved, we have an official Discord

485

server, discord.gg slash foundryvtt.

486

We have an amazing community where, you

know, like-minded TCRPG enthusiasts who

487

love technology and love foundryvtt.

488

And

489

are eager to share their tips and tricks

and experiences with you, help out, are

490

able to be found.

491

It's a really wonderful community.

492

I encourage everyone to check it out.

493

We are available on socials, Twitter slash

Foundry VTT, YouTube, Foundry VTT, Twitch.

494

We have a Twitch channel.

495

We'll be live on Twitch next week with a

development.

496

update of our latest and greatest

versions, very exciting announcements and

497

first looks and things coming there.

498

And yeah, we have a Patreon as well, as I

mentioned earlier in the in the podcast,

499

this all sort of started on Patreon, we do

still have a Patreon for anyone who just

500

loves what we're doing so much that you

want to like show a little bit extra

501

support or something, you can do that

there.

502

It's it's incredibly appreciated.

503

It is not required.

504

The whole

505

business model that we operate on is a

one-time purchase.

506

You don't have to subscribe to anything.

507

It's just if you love what we're doing so

much that you want to shower us with your

508

affection, you may do so at your

discretion.

509

And yeah, the best place to interact with

me and the team is on our Discord server.

510

We're very active there, and we love

chatting with the community about what

511

we're doing.

512

So do check it out, and I hope to see you

there.

513

Excellent.

514

Well, listener, I hope you enjoyed today's

conversation and I am 100% certain that

515

you learned something today or at least

have something to chew on mentally and

516

hopefully it nourishes your body and soul.

517

We'll be back next week for another

amazing episode.

518

Until then, friend, let's go ahead and

roll initiative.