The college search should be an exciting journey, but for many students, it’s filled with pressure, competition, and anxiety. Too often, students and parents fixate on prestigious schools without considering whether they’re truly the right fit, leading to stress and a loss of self-discovery in the process. Today’s guests, Jen and Jared, school counselors and co-founders of Forget the Rankings, are here to change that! They’re challenging the traditional, prestige-driven mindset and introducing a values-based approach that helps students find colleges that align with their personal goals, priorities, and well-being!

Jen and Jared have developed a powerful tool that encourages meaningful conversations between students and parents about what truly matters in a college experience. By shifting the focus from rankings to values, they’re making the application process less overwhelming and more empowering. In this episode, they share how their approach is not only helping students make better college decisions but also improving their mental health and confidence along the way.

Resources Mentioned:

• Forget the Rankings Resources (values cards and more!)
• Leave your review for High School Counseling Conversations on Apple Podcasts

Connect with Lauren:

• Sign up for the free, 3-day prep for High School Counseling Job Interviews https://counselorclique.com/interviews
• Visit my TpT store https://counselorclique.com/shop
• Send me a DM on Instagram @counselorclique https://instagram.com/counselorclique
• Follow me on Facebook https://facebook.com/counselorclique
• Send me an email mailto:lauren@counselorclique.com
• Join the Clique Collaborative http://cliquecollab.com

Connect with Jared and Jen:

• Instagram: @forget_the_rankings
• LinkedIn
• Website
• Email: jared@forgettherankings.com

Full show notes on website: https://counselorclique.com/episode159

Mentioned in this episode:

Learn 3 powerful tips for interviewing for high school counseling jobs with confidence through this video series: https://counselorclique.com/interviews/

Hey friends, let me address the elephant in the room. I've been

sick and I'm trying to get over it, but if you can hang on

through this episode, then I promise we'll get through it

together, and hopefully I'll be good as new for the future. Let

me first start by introducing our two guests for today. Jared

is a public high school counselor, adjunct counseling

faculty and co founder of Forget the Rankings, the values driven

college search. As both a school counselor and licensed

therapist, he understands the impact that the college search

can have on the mental health of our teens. Forget the Rankings

aims to change the narrative surrounding the college search,

to focus on each student's values rather than prestige.

Now let me introduce you to Jen. Jen is a school counselor,

therapist, and teacher who brings over 15 years of

experience supporting students through their educational

journeys. Witnessing firsthand the mounting mental health

crisis fueled by rankings-driven college admissions, she co

founded forget the rankings to transform how students and

families navigate this process. Drawing from her background in

cultural anthropology and extensive work across K-12

education, she emphasizes personal values and authentic

fit over prestige.

The three of us had a really great conversation about the

college search landscape and the effects that this pressure

cooker is having on students' mental health. By the time they

get to the end of their high school careers, students feel

like they're living in this world of competition after

watching each other apply to colleges and sharing who got

into where and who applied where. The whole thing just gets

blown out of proportion, and high school counselors have a

front seat to watching it all unfold. Jen and Jared were

really, quite frankly, tired of watching the same conversations

happen over and over again in front of them, between students

and parents, that they just knew that they had to do something

about it. So listen in as you hear about what they're doing in

their school to combat the mental health epidemic as it

pertains to the college search process and college

applications.

You got into this profession to make a difference in your

students lives, but you're spread thin by all the things

that keep getting added to your to do list. I can't create more

hours in the day, but I can invite you into my Counselor

Clique where you'll finally catch your breath. Come with me

as we unpack creative ideas and effective strategies that'll

help you be the counselor who leaves a lifelong impact on your

students. I'm Lauren Tingle, your high school counseling hype

girl, here to help you energize your school counseling program

and remind you of how much you love your job.

Hey guys, Jen and Jared, thank you for being on the podcast.

I'm excited to talk about college searching and mental

health and values-driven searching. You all have a great

topic that you kind of brought to the podcast, and I think it's

definitely worth talking about. So welcome to the show.

Thanks for having us.

Thank you.

Yeah, let's jump right in. I kind of am curious about the two

of y'all experiences kind of growing up and searching for

college yourself. Like, what did that process look like for you?

Because I know everyone kind of has their own origin story. It's

probably shaping what you're doing now.

Yeah, our stories look really different, but I think both of

them, like really lend well to what we're doing now. So I grew

up in very rural Pennsylvania, like town with one traffic

light, kind of place.

Yeah, where most people didn't go to college. Like it was a

Love it.

farming community. A lot of people, like, stayed and worked

on the farm. Maybe 30% of my graduating class went off to

college. And there were like 120 of us. And I won't forget being

in my school counselor's office and saying, like, I think I

really want, like, a small college, you know, I want to go

somewhere that maybe a lot of people from our high school

don't go. And I remember him saying, like, oh, you should put

Penn State on your college list. And I was like, there's like,

40,000 students.

Like, is that, am I misunderstanding here?

And I said the opposite of that. And just remember feeling like,

oh, okay, like, I'm gonna do this alone. And was lucky that I

had, like, an older brother who ended up at a small, private

liberal arts college, and I knew that that's the experience that

I wanted. But, like, no support from high school at all, and I

ended up at Albright College in Redding, Pennsylvania, that no

one from my high school had gone there or was there. But yeah,

like, it was just not a college going culture, not a lot of

support. Lucky to have a family that was supportive, and I kind

of, we figured it out as we went.

My experience was different than that. I had more of an

experience similar to the school where Jared and I work, a

suburban high school outside Philadelphia, very much a

college going culture, so much so that there was definitely the

right schools to get into and the wrong schools to get into.

And of course, this was like pre social media days, but we, Jared

and I have talked about this before, we had a bulletin board

at our high school, and, like, the big thing was to put your

name up with where you were going, in your college colors.

And it was hard, because, like, it, you know, when early

decision rolled around, you saw students with the fancy schools

being pinned up there, and you felt certain ways if you weren't

up there, or if it wasn't the right type of school.

And that was definitely my experience. Despite getting a

lot of guidance from my counselor, she was wonderful,

but it was very much like what I think most counselors today

still do when engaging with the college search process. And

there wasn't a whole lot of emphasis on, like, how are you

doing with it, or who are you, which we're going to get to

later. But it was hard seeing your friends get into the right

schools. Excuse me doing air quotes, but I'm doing air quotes

everybody ,the right schools. And me not feeling like my

school was one of the right schools, which is just so

different from Jared's experience, because I went to

Bucknell and my friends were going to Ivy League schools. So

it wasn't the same tier, again air quotes, of schools, and it

made the process really stressful and definitely

impacted my view on like, who I was as a person, not able to

like, reach that top tier school as society deems it.

Yeah, and that's so interesting that your set of rankings at

your school was different than your set, Jared, like, so

different, but everybody had this invisible list in their

mind, or that their teachers were saying, or their parents or

their counselors of like, this is the good one. This is where

you should—don't even put that up on the bulletin board because

you'd be embarrassed that you even got in. What? No! But like,

that's a real feeling. I'm sure that people in your grade were

feeling as they were applying to college.

For sure, and it still exists today. And I think, at least

from my experience, the list hasn't changed that much.

Yeah, we're talking about the same places.

And they're not listening to us right now, do you think that

those come from big, just the college ranking kind of,

Newsweek, World Report, like, those kinds of number one party

school number one for this? Like, that's where we get that

from? I think that's where I got it from when I was in high

school without social media.

Yeah. And I think it's like, there's like, a reputation piece

to that, right? Like, so highly ranked, you're talked about a

lot, right? What parents are talking about at soccer

practice, and, you know, in the morning with their coffee, like,

we just keep speaking these same names over and over, and it just

like, takes hold. It's like, the sweatshirt schools, we often

call them. Like, name a school to a parent, they're like, well,

we've never heard of that, and it's like, but it's such a

wonderful place. But if it's not like in their...

Vernacular, in their world where they're talking about it, then

it's, it's nothing.

Right, if my neighbor is not going to be like, Oh wow, when I

say that school, like, I want the oh wow, from the person at

the grocery store, that I want my kid to go to.

Well, and that kind of leads into my next question is, what

kind of trends are you seeing right now today? Like you're in

the schools, y'all work together?

Yes.

Same department. So, I mean, you could speak to the trends at

your school, or even maybe just as a whole, what are you seeing

in the college search process with our students right now?

It is a push for many of our students to the same name

schools that we were still talking about 20, 30 years ago.

And I think, I think you hit the nail on the head that it, it's

coming from the rankings, but it's also coming from the

culture that the rankings have established. So you know, even

if you go on and your family that's thinking like, Okay, we

want a hidden gem school, we're ready to think outside the box

and find something that's off the beaten path. And you throw

that into Google, hidden gem schools that value activism, the

same schools come up, right? Like Google can't even produce

for you those other names. And they exist, though. It's crazy.

Like they are out there.

There's just not a great way to find them. And I think, too, the

trend now has become like, I will apply to as many schools as

possible that are hyper selective, to throw everything

at the wall and see what sticks. And like, when I think about a

student who comes in our office and they're like, I'm applying

to all the Ivy's, it's like they're so different. Like to be

at Dartmouth versus to be at like Penn, they couldn't be more

And could you possibly fit in all those places? Do you want to

different.

go to all those places? No, you just want to say you got in, or

whatever.

It's like, hunting for prestige. And that's where I find like now

we have students who are, you know, tackling so many AP

courses and the college search, but instead of applying to,

like, eight to 10 schools, it's 20, and they all have

supplements. And it just, we create this, like pressure

cooker, that students are already not mentally well when

it comes to all of this, right? So we add all of this on top,

and we, we've, I think, as a, as a country, as a culture of made

students believe that, like, where you get in showcases your

worth. And same for parents, right? I think a lot of parents

are like, my worth as a parent is connected to the school that

my student goes to. And I want other parents to think I've done

a good job.

Right. And you hear those stories like, early and earlier,

like, I'm applying to this prestigious preschool so that my

child can get into Harvard. Like, it starts so early,

they're already thinking about it.

And that's what, I think you just like, mix all of that

together and then you wonder, like, why are we seeing more

students with mental health crises and, like, depression and

anxiety? It's like, Hello. Let's pause for a minute and realize

we're making them feel like everything they do is to achieve

an outcome, versus like, What about like, learning about

something because you're curious about it, or like, doing

something fun in the summer, like working a part time job.

That's good. You don't have to go do, like, research with a

professor.

Unless you're interested in that, and it's a passion and you

want to learn about it, and you're curious, like, no.

So we hit a little bit, I think, of a breaking point. I'll just

And you don't want to see students get to the end and feel

Yeah. It's not for the growth, it's the outcome, the potential

outcome. And I think the saddest part about it, too, is the kids

who, once they get in, like, will sit and reflect with us and

tell the story of, like, how this philosophy came to be with

us. So I had been in my umteenth team meeting where a student

be like, you know, I really, I never really got a chance to

hang out with my friends. I remember one student a few years

ago got in, felt a sense of relief, but then broke down in

came in and said, I want to go to there's an Ivy League school

tears and was like, I never went and got, what did she say?

Bubble tea. I never got a chance to go get bubble tea with my

friends. And that was like the breaking point for her.It's such

a small thing.

like that. So are y'all changing the narrative in your school in

some way? Like, how do you fight against that as a school

counselor?

that's in our neighborhood that they they love to say, this is

where they want to go.

So you got mad, you flipped a table and you said, I'm done

with this.

Yeah, I flipped the table...

And the student was like, No, but I like, really want to go

there.

But I said, why? Right? Like, the question, How come? And

they're like, because it's a good school. What makes it a

good school? It just is, like, they can't get past that, right?

So into jared's office, I marched down the hall, flipping

tables as I go, I'm like, why are we not doing this

differently? And and Jared and I are also both licensed

therapists, So Jared had recently been talking about

doing some career counseling for adults after school, and had

been talking about a value sort. And so I said, Wouldn't it be so

cool if we could rethink our college meetings and we did it

based on values?

So I looked at Jen, I was like, Wait, so you're saying have a

card sort, have values and connect, you know, the values to

a list of schools. And Jen was like, Yeah. And I was like,

we're doing that. And Jen was like, no. But I was like, No,

we're doing that. So for a year, we've, like, built this really

cool counseling tool, and we're using it in meetings that is

focused on that, right? The idea is, what if we forgot everything

else and didn't even make it about college for a second? And

like, of this list of things, sort through these cards. What

speaks to you? Is it creativity? Is it collaboration? Is it

activism? Is it global citizenship? Is it great food,

right?

And then from there, having conversations with students

about, like, how does this show up in your life? How do you

envision this showing up? Well, here's 15 colleges that also

really care about that thing, and now created this, like, new

entry point, and the student has already selected, like, I love

this thing. So it's less awkward to like, then name a hidden gem

school. It's not like we're pulling it out of, like, the

most obscure place. We've done a lot of research. We've used our

experience to be like, This aligns with who you are. And I

think that students and families, even who are, like,

very prestige focused, can't just ignore that. There's like,

an innate, well, if I'm innately curious about this, like, I

gotta see what schools are on this list.

Like, if this is not a match, then, like, maybe I'm not being

honest about my values.

Exactly. So we try, like, there's a bulletin board in my

office, don't forget the hidden gems, and we rotate them out.

But I think we really, it's about like, cracking open your

world view, right? I think beyond what you've heard all

these years about this one school is like the epitome of

success. And I think again, when the gateway in is then they read

this really cool description of, you know, activism at Bennington

College, there's a course I can take this club is doing this,

you begin to, like, see yourself there and a part of that

community in a different way. And we see students get excited.

And a big thing that we talk about, too, is we don't believe

in safety schools, right? I think there's such a negative

connotation of you have to have a backup option, and if you end

up going there, that means you failed.

There are so many schools out there that, like, can we just

apply to all schools that we'd be good fits for, academically,

socially, culturally?

So that's why we say it's about finding comfort schools.

I love that language.

Schools that you would be excited to be admitted to, and

you find something there for you. So it's not that feeling of

like, Oh, I I ended up going to my safety school because it's

the only place that I got in. It's I feel so excited to go to

a school that is aligned with me, and they really care about

collaboration, and there are living learning communities. It

just has reframed the whole conversation.

One of my favorite parts about the process that we've been

experiencing is watching the student and the parent navigate

that conversation. So last year, when we did it with a family, we

have a student sort first, and the parent does it at tandem, at

the same time.

Yeah, I was gonna ask how this works. Is this like in an

individual meeting, and you tell them they're going to be doing

this?

We haven't warned them ahead of time.

Okay, put them on the spot.

We put them on the spot, but we give the students a deck of

cards, and then the parent, or whatever trusted adult is there

with them, and we ask the students to share first, like

their top three to five values, and then the parent goes next.

And those responses have just been so fun to watch unfold.

We've had families start chanting five for five, like

they both picked. But we've also had...

Zero for zero, no matches.

I don't think I've had zero for zero. Even today, I did it

today, there was one there was one aligning match, yeah. And

the cool thing, like, even today, there was some

discrepancies, but the parent and the student turned

independently from me, because I've just facilitated the

starting conversation and had a talk about, like, I didn't know

that you had pulled support. What does that mean to you?

Like, I didn't I didn't know that that was important. We had

it before with environmentalism. Yeah, that mom got very, in a

good way, emotional. Like I had no idea. I can't believe I'm

walking out of here learning about a value that you think is

like at your core identity that I didn't know. And you're 16, 17

years old. The gratitude that you can feel from parents

walking out with this like disarmed conversation. Here is

who my kid is, potentially at the core, and this is now going

to shape our conversations moving forward, when we look at

schools, has been just like, heartwarming and a privilege to

watch.

And it makes it about self discovery. I think so often,

like a, with our juniors, a junior college, meaning, feels

so like, process, and who are your teacher recommenders, and

what SAT score. And I felt like for moments, kids were leaving

our office, and I'm like, they don't know themselves any

better. And now I feel like there's this joy of just leaving

that office being like, I feel like I have a focus now I never

thought about values. This is important to me. So how do I use

this as like a lens for the rest of my search. Or even for like,

what am I going to do this summer, or what courses should I

take as a senior? There's this guiding principle.

And I just love the fact that I think that kids and families are

leaving our offices like we know each other a little bit better.

I know myself a little bit better, because I think that

that's what's gotten lost in this. It should be about joy and

growth and discovery and learning, and it's just about

this relentless push for excellence and like, I'm gonna

take that AP course because I want six AP courses senior year

to get into that school. And it's like, but why didn't you

take a computer design course? Because you love creativity and

beauty, and that means so much to you. You now don't have that

space in your life to, like, live your value and be yourself

and care for yourself, and I think that's part of the

problem.

Have you found a sweet spot for starting these conversations?

Have you just kind of been doing it with juniors? Because that

feels very timely, juniors and seniors, or are you starting

earlier than that, so that they have time to explore those

values a little bit more?

That is such a good question, because we have plans. But for

now, we've been starting with juniors, but we've been also

doing it with seniors as they're trying to decide, like at least

last year, what schools, which school might I want to pick from

out of the ones I've been admitted to. We've revisited

this. But our hope is this is going to start sooner for the

students in our community, because I think some students

can come into a junior meeting, right, and talk values. They're

ready, right? And one of the students that I had in my office

recently, we do some probing questions too, because you can

kind of get to see that look on their face and they're like, I'm

not really sure what you mean by core values. So we roll it back

a little bit. And today, did some work on like, Okay, who do

you who do you admire in your life? Like, what are you doing

outside of school? What sparks joy for you? And that helps, but

we would like to start those conversations sooner.

So building like, we're working to build a pretty intentional

like counseling curriculum at our school. Like, how do we

plant the seed in ninth grade? And I will add not just stuff

for students, like we do evening programs for parents, and we're

starting to infuse this now in sophomore year.

Especially because you can see how meaningful of a conversation

it is between those two students and that the parent is walking

out changed. Like, if you can start changing their perspective

or getting them looking inside in ninth grade, that would be

huge for conversations that are to come.

Yep. And then I think families are having this conversation at

home, because you're also giving parents the tools to be like,

talk about these things. Talk about what lights you up inside,

what are the skills that you feel like you're developing?

What are the clubs and activities that you want to be

doing? And I think that's where, like, the cultural shift comes

in. And it takes time, a lot of time, but I think if we were

working backwards to slowly bring that in, starting as like,

eighth graders rising into ninth grade. Not that everyone will

always subscribe to this, right? You're always going to have

those who think prestige is the most important thing, but.

Is that one of the values in the deck that they could even name?

Yeah, it is.

I love that you asked that.

I mean, then you really get to see, okay, this is important to

them, so let's do it.

But full disclosure, we use these cards that we created,

right on the back, you flip them, a QR code takes you to

this curated list of schools that we've developed. But the

prestige card doesn't take you to them.

Oh, tell me where it takes you. It's like, so you got poked

thing like, this is what we're telling you not to do.

Yeah, right.

Well, we wrote, like, a very heartfelt article that is very

aligned to your first question about sort of where we came

from. Mine was about the bulletin board and high school.

Mine was about, like, I just had a student, you know, talking

about, we should roll out the red carpet for every student and

celebrate all college acceptances. So we both shared

that perspective in this article to offer some tips, then to say,

maybe instead of thinking about prestige, here's another

perspective we want to offer you to consider.

And it's important that they're honest, and they do pull it if

that's how they feel. Because I think the other thing that

people sometimes trip over with us is we're not saying that you

should forget prestigious schools. We're saying your How

Come behind it has to be solid. If there's an Ivy League school

that you want to go to, but that Ivy League school really does

honor your values, and you can demonstrate how come and the

why, if I say, How come you want to go to Penn, Harvard, Yale,

and you've got a good answer besides it's a good school, then

maybe there is value there for you, and you shouldn't cross

that off your list. But it also shouldn't be the only school,

the only type of school on your list.

Yeah, you're able to see the maturity in them, being able to

elaborate on that answer, or kind of point them into some

other directions, of say, hey, let's examine this and see if

that's how you really feel. Like to me, it doesn't sound like

that, because you don't really have answers for that.

Okay, I know you haven't been doing it for super long in your

schools, but take the mental health piece with this. Like,

are you seeing a shift in students' mental health, or it

might be too soon, maybe, to see that, or what has that looked

like since they've been looking at some of the more intrinsic

values than extrinsic in their college search? How does that

affect their mental health?

Yeah, there was a student who came to do it an assignment for

a class about starting to build a college list as a junior. And

I remember coming in, and she's just, like, paralyzed, like, I

don't even know where to start. There's like, over 4200 colleges

feels so overwhelming. I feel like, left out. My peers know

about schools. I don't like, I just don't want to do this. So

we did the card sort and linked her to our like website with all

these school college profiles and everything.

And just to see, like, a student soften in the moment and

shoulders go down and be like, wow, there's like, places I'm

excited about. I can go into my next class and we're going to

talk about college lists. And be like, you know, I looked at this

website, I found 10 schools that I really like, and here's why.

And to think about how that impacts peers, then too, to be

like, here's how I found them. So I think about the intensity

that students feel at the gate, like the pressure of I have to

figure this out, and it feels so overwhelming, choice overload,

to then do it this way, softens it. And you just find students

be like, Okay, this is doable. I can figure this out, and you're

just having a warmer, more heartwarming, fun, joyful

conversation.

I was just gonna say like you as a counselor, are enjoying your

job more because you're having richer conversations. You're not

the robot who's going through the checklist of things you have

to get through, because there are all those things that we

have to get through, but you're getting to have, like, the real

conversations with students and seeing them, like you said,

seeing their shoulders relaxing, their guard come down, that's

really rewarding as a high school counselor.

It really is.

And you're facilitating. Like, I think the beauty of like, using

our counseling skills to navigate complex and difficult

conversations between students and parents and students who

come in carrying that weight. I feel at the end of those

meetings, I'm like, no longer this robot who's like, and now

take an SAT. I'm like, wow, that was using some real counseling

skills, and kids feel better.

Yeah, there was a student this week that I had done it with,

and part of our process is this set of questions. So let's say

the 15 schools that we have on the list for whatever reason,

maybe geographically, demographically, whatever it

might be, size, it's not the right fit for you. So you know

your value is career, let's say, but you're struggling to find a

school beyond our list that might fit that. We have 15ish

questions, 15-20 questions per value for you to take with you

to determine how is this value showing up on a college campus.

So this student this week had their three values, and we went

through these set of questions for each value, and he had

pulled, like, two or three questions from each value list,

created his own question list with his mom, like, Oh, I think

these would be the questions that would really help me

identify. And he was like, I'm so excited to go to colleges now

and make them super uncomfortable and hold Career

Services accountable with these really tough questions on like,

how is career showing up on your campus as a value. And I know

now Mrs. Vallier, if they can't answer it, maybe that's not the

right school for me, because this is, this is hyper important

to me. And I think giving the students that sense of control

and power on a college campus also brings the mental health

into perspective.

Yeah. You put kids back in control.

Because they're probably frozen, again going on these college

tours. It's a big group setting. They're with other parents who

are holding those prestige values up high. And then they

shrink back. They don't ask questions on the tour. They just

blend in with everybody else. If they go in equipped, they know

what questions to ask. They know what questions to ask for their

specific needs. That's going to be a much more meaningful tour,

more memorable. They're going to walk away like, I can either

check yes on that or cross it off my list because it really

didn't align like the website said that it did.

Exactly. And in this meeting, we spend a lot of time talking

about how colleges are trying to sell you and you have to try to

weed through, like, Is this really true for me and what I'm

looking for? And the student had recently been to Goucher, and

was sitting there going, you know what? He gave like a shout

out to Goucher. And was like, they did a great job answering

these questions, and I didn't even realize they were doing it.

But had I had this list, this would have been a great fit for

me. And so I think there's power, yeah, and giving students

control, not only with the colleges, but sometimes with

their families.

I was just gonna say, with their parents, they're able to stand

up for themselves and say, No, this is a good fit because of

XYZ. Like, if they get bombarded at the dinner table with

questions and they don't know the answers to that, then they

shrink back there too. And their parents run the process, and we

all know we want students to be leading this process.

1000%.

I'm sure you'll get the parents filling out the applications and

the scholarships and the...

We'll have a conversation like, well, WE have the SAT this

Saturday. And it's like...

Oh, are you taking it?

Didn't know that allowed that now, but yeah.

We, yes. Like, I get it. You are, you have a big investment

in this, but...

The level of WE, but it's we are not applying. They're applying.

It's the same everywhere, isn't it? That's reassuring. Well, I

feel like we covered a lot of different things. Is there

anything I didn't ask you about that you wanted to touch on

before I have you tell the listeners where they can find

the values cards and and find more about what y'all are doing?

You know, I think, just like one thing, we all remember being new

counselors, and for those of us who are put on the spot to

create a college list your first year or two, that can feel so

daunting.

They want you to come up right there without googling anything

like you've got the Rolodex in your head.

That's right. Jared and I spend a lot of time talking about how

we wish we had access to something like this that's not

as cumbersome as like, the list generators that you'll find

online. This one's more meaningful, and I just think for

a new counselor, this could be a really helpful resource. For a

seasoned counselor, it's a great resource for again, those hidden

gems, to really hone in on mental health and think about

like, let's refresh my practice and how I'm approaching college

meetings.

Yeah, make it fun for you again.

This feels like a real, tangible counseling tool. You said it

came from an idea that you had in private practice, and when

you said that, I thought of a friend of mine who is former

school counselor in private practice now, who does a lot of

career counseling with values cards, and adults still need

help with it, too. So like, let's start that conversation

early.

That's what I was going to say. Like, I've worked with so many

adults who we would do a value sort. And like, they would come

to me because, like, I'm so unhappy in my job, and they're

35, 40 years old. We would do the value sort and I just, they

would always be like, Oh, so this is why I hate my job.

Because it doesn't align with me at all.

So then we're thinking like, Well, then why are we not having

these conversations starting much earlier, teaching the

students, you know, the value in values driven decision making?

And then ultimately, like, I just want kids to be happier and

healthier and then become happier and healthier adults.

That's what this is all about. Like, maybe then we see less

people at 35 or 40 being like, I have to completely pivot and

give away a lot of my time and probably money to maybe go back

to school or pursue a different path, because we just have been

creating this pressure cooker of like, follow these steps, do

this thing. We just want kids to be happier and healthier. That's

what this is all coming from. We want to change that whole

narrative. You're worth more than a college acceptance

letter.

I love that. Before we go, I am curious, what is your number one

value in your values cards? Do you each have one that's like,

this is my number one?

We do. We like, tested each other, but we each, we have, we

have top ones. Do you want to share yours first?

Yeah, oh, gosh, I have to pick one? One? We picked three.

Okay, three. Tell us your three.

Okay. My mine was social connection, fun and adventure.

Okay. And did you feel like your college experience was that? Or

this is like, going forward, if you were to do it again, those

are things that you would know that you value.

I am very thankful for where I went to school. It gave me a lot

and pushed me outside my comfort zone, probably because it's not

where I should have gone. So it made me look for my people that

weren't easily found, and the people that I found are like my

my people to this day. Tthey are not counselors, they will spend

time to listen to this podcast, because they're just my people

now. But I don't think that those values would have led me

there. But what I think it did for me, thinking back on my

life, is I found those values there.

Like they make sense to you now, and they kind of were always

there.

I found them on campus, even though the campus, like, I

wouldn't have put that school in these slots, I would have put

Bucknell in other spots, and it is in other spots, but not in

those slots, but I found them there.

Yeah. One of mine is also social connection. The other is

creativity, and the last is activism. And I think similarly,

I don't know if I went into my search being like, it needs to

be that. But like, for me, a driving force was music. Like,

how can I be heavily involved on campus and music without maybe

being a music major? And that was part of my life, and that's

what I found at Albright completely. And the social

connection piece too. Like, it was small, and I was able to

make some of the best friends of my life there. So again, it's

like, in retrospect, I'm like, yeah, a lot of that was really

present. I wish I had the language or that somebody made

me do this so I could have named it, because I actually picked a

different school. And then my mom made me go back to Albright

for, I don't know if I ever even told you this story. My mom made

me go back for one more tour. And we were standing somewhere,

and I just looked at it. I was like, What was I thinking? Like,

it's here. It's always been here.

That's cool. I like hearing that and just seeing how that has

shaped you as counselors, and then even how you're able to be

reflective when you think back to your time in high school and

your college search process. And it's neat how, like that theme

just kind of ties its way back through and, kind of like our

strengths, like, I think they evolve over time, but I think,

like, we've got these pieces of our personality that make us who

we are, whether they're our strengths or our values, and we

see them nurtured if we spend the time doing that, spend some

time reflecting on that. So your cards are really cool to give

students that opportunity to think and reflect, and really

cool for counselors too, just to be a tangible tool to do more

counseling, because that's what we're always wanting to do. We

want that time with students, and those direct conversations

where we get to feel like we're making a difference. And it

sounds like your values tool is really doing that. So thank you

so much for coming on and sharing about that.

Yeah, we love talking about it. I mean, I think as counselors,

too, we, I don't think we've met a counselor yet who hasn't been

like, yes, we need this, but we also haven't met a counselor

that's like, oh yes, something like this exists yet. So I think

it's a tangible answer to a problem that I think most of us

feel in the field.

Or if they had it, they would go, Oh yes, this is just making

what I'm already doing better.

Yeah.

Well, I will link where they can find you in the show notes. But

do you just want to tell us about website, Instagram,

places?

It's called Forget the Rankings, the values driven college

search. So you can go to www.forgettherankings.com. We're

on Instagram as forgettherankings, Tiktok, you

can find us on all social media.

Okay, we'll make sure all the listeners have that. Thank you

so much, Jen and Jared. This was a rich conversation, and I'm so

glad that we got to meet and talk about this, because I think

it's important for students and counselors.

Us too.

Thank you.

I so enjoyed this topic, and you could honestly just hear how

passionate Jen and Jared were about this. It all just feels

extremely relatable. I know that I always laugh when I hear

conversations happening on the other side of the country that I

know are happening on this side too. It's like we're all in this

together. Cue the high school musical soundtrack. Anyways, be

sure to check out Jen and Jared resources at Forget the

Rankings, and show some love to two fellow high school

counselors who are being problem solvers and go getters in their

school. We'll see you next week.

Thanks for listening to today's episode of High School

Counseling Conversations. All the links I talked about today

can be found in the show notes and also at

counselorclique.com/podcast. Be sure to hit follow wherever you

listen to your podcast so that you never miss a new episode.

Connect with me over on Instagram. Feel free to send me

a DM @counselorclique, that's C, L, I, Q, U, E. I'll see you next

week.