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Funding & Research Culture (podcast extract)
Episode 18 • 28th February 2024 • Changing Academic Life • Geraldine Fitzpatrick
00:00:00 00:30:53

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This episode is an edited extract from a ‘Beyond Phrenology’ podcast episode where Dr Madhur Mangalam chatted with me about the impacts of research funding challenges on academic culture and individual well-being. The conversation addresses the need for a shift towards more supportive and diverse cultures, the complexities of academic career paths, and the importance of leadership, mentorship and job crafting. We also discuss the implications of international academic norms on individual career choices.

Overview:

[00:00:43] Research Funding Challenges and the Unsustainability of Current Models

[00:04:57] Promoting Emotional Intelligence and Leadership in Academia

[00:15:14] Navigating Career Paths Across Contexts

[00:24:38] On Privileged Positions and Playing the Game

[00:29:02] Wrapping up

[00:30:53] End

Related Links:

Madhur Mangalam, University of Nebraska at Omaha

BeyondPhrenology (YouTube)

BeyondPhrenology (Spotify)

Daniel Goleman – Emotional Intelligence

CAL99 episode: On research identity, meaningful work and funding

TEDx talk from 2016: The craziness of research funding. It costs us all.  

Online Academic Leadership Development Course – sign up by March 7 2024!



This podcast uses the following third-party services for analysis:

Chartable - https://chartable.com/privacy

Transcripts

Geri:

Welcome to Changing Academic Life.

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I'm Geraldine Fitzpatrick, and this is

a podcast series where academics and

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others share their stories, provide

ideas, and provoke discussions about what

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we can do individually and collectively

to change academic life for the better.

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How do we navigate the

challenges of research funding?

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While at the same time,

trying to promote a collegial

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culture, that values wellbeing.

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That's for the good of science

and scientists and society.

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This episode is an extract

from a recent conversation.

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For another academic related

podcast called 'Beyond Phrenology'.

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The host is Dr.

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Madhur Mangalam from the

university of Nebraska at Omaha.

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And the trigger for him contacting me

as an old TEDx talk I gave in:

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on the craziness of research funding.

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So prior to this extract, we had

been discussing the challenges

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around research funding and so on.

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And here we move more to positioning

the funding issue into a broader

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context of research culture.

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Culture and we discuss themes that you

will have heard me talk about . If you're

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interested in the full episode, I'll

include the links in the show notes.

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This extract comes from the

second half, starting at around

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one hour and nine minutes.

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So, enjoy this and you might

find other episodes in Madhur's

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podcast of interest as well.

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Madhur: So right now we are in

a situation where funding levels

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have not increased overall.

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Right.

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Compared to how many researchers we are.

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Proportionately funding has not increased.

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Right?

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So it's kind of a, like a oil well,

which is depleting, and now you have to

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burn more oil to get that oil from it.

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Right?

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So your overall productivity is

going down, number of papers are

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rising, but definitely not the

productivity in proportionally.

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Yeah.

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Right.

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So do you think this will be

sustainable in the long run?

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I mean, how far can we

stretch this system?

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Geri: No, it's not sustainable.

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And one of my particular concerns is

when it's ultimately not sustainable

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for doing good science, for solving

the hard problems that we have right

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now that we were just talking about.

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Yeah.

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And it's not sustainable for human beings.

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One research study, and I can't remember

now who wrote it, but talk about academics

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having a higher level of stress and

burnout than the general population.

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And that's just getting worse.

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Yeah.

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So we're burning out human beings

and our best brains who we want to be

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working on these problems are getting

into these really stressed states of

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on the treadmill where they're not

actually able to produce the good work

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and they're just producing, you know,

churn outs of proposals and papers.

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And that's a human impact, which has

a science impact and a societal impact.

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And yeah, it's not sustainable, which

is why I'm very concerned about not so

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much the funding, the funding just being,

I don't know, both sort of a driver and

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a, and a symptom of why we need to shift

to more collegial supportive cultures

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that value well being, that recognize the

diversity of individuals that recognize,

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what's needed for people to bring their

best selves to work and to be at their

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most creative, most collaborative.

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It needs a different skill set than what

we're training people for right now.

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Madhur: Peter Thiel has an

interesting quote, right?

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Uh, where, he talks about,

that we wanted, to have.

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Flying cars, and we got like a 140

character Twitter, in terms of

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what we expected the technology will

bring and what it actually brought.

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So , he also talks about, you know, in

the same kind of conversations that, we

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have a system, we have set up a system

where we are not selecting scientists,

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we are selecting good grand writers.

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Mm.

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Uh, so, so there's a natural selection.

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Good game players, you can say.

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Good game players, yeah.

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Uh, you know, even from

my personal experience.

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Yeah.

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Mm.

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Exactly.

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Geri: And we should be selecting

people who are good knowing

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themselves and what they bring.

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We should be selecting people who are

good at, empathy and compassion and

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being able to work with other people.

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We should be selecting people who have

good leadership skills, who have good

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interpersonal skills, who are able to

live with uncertainty, you know, because

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research is fundamentally uncertain.

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Madhur: But how do we do that?

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Because those are the things

you cannot quantify, and

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have a number for that, right?

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Geri: No, no.

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And that's one of, it

doesn't fit in a spreadsheet.

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It doesn't fit in a spreadsheet, yes.

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Yep.

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And I know that some people are

starting to include questions in

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interview protocols for promotions or

job applications that might be about.

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Tell us about your leadership skills

or, you know, like a collaboration

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that worked and again, we can game the

system, but I'd, I'd like it part of

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our training, so that it just becomes

part of the skill set that we have,

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whether that's starting at school,

teaching people social emotional skills.

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Emotional intelligence

became very popular.

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Was it in the 90s that Danny Goleman

made the concept more popular?

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Oh, I can't remember what, what the

timeframe was, but there's been

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a lot of work done in the interim,

and I know that there was a lot of

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work going on by Salovey and various

people before then on this area, but

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in terms of bringing it into public

discourse, I know that there are many,

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many programs in schools from primary

school up that are about teaching kids

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some of these fundamental skills about

how to recognize and manage their own

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emotions, how to, how to, you know, those

interpersonal skills and how to manage

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relationships and how to manage conflict.

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And, there are also a whole lot of skills

needed in terms of just Dealing with

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how we structure time, how we look after

ourselves as well, and how we value that.

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I know that I'm, I'm in the middle

of marking some assignments.

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As I said, I'm, I'm teaching this PhD

course about from surviving to thriving.

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And one of the things that

I got them to do, we, we.

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Given them lots of tools and resources

for different aspects around whether

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it's knowing your values and strengths,

because that helps you make choices in

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how you do your tasks or what career paths

might look like, at least the qualities,

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even if not the label, give them lots

of skills about valuing well being and

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recognizing how Being well isn't a nice

to have, but is a fundamental requirement

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for being able to do good science.

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We do things about how to say

no, and manage boundaries so that

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you can as part of that, how to

build collegial relationships, how

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to have difficult conversations.

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And I'm just in the middle of marking the

reflective journals that they had as they

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tried out various tools and techniques.

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And.

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One thing that just keeps coming up

for me is like the students saying

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again and again, there are so many

things here that are so simple, but

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they make such a huge difference.

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Why haven't we heard about these before?

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And so I'm hoping that some of

our students, who've gone through

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this will be starting to be part of

the next generation of researchers

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that will change cultures.

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Be part of changing academic cultures

to be more collegial and supportive and

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collaborative to recognize individual

contributions and diversity in a different

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way beyond just notions of gender and

race, which are very important, but

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yet diversity is much more than that,

especially for the purposes of science.

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And we also have a leadership

development course with Austin

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Rainer from Belfast, Queens, Belfast,

that we run for Informatics Europe.

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And that's trying to teach academics about

how to do leadership in a different way.

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Because again, we're never taught

about how to do leadership,

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how to be leaders, right?

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You know, we, we may be sent on

training courses about how to manage

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the budgets in the university system

or how to write a grant proposal.

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There are many courses on that.

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Not taught about those.

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Madhur: Their leadership still is,

uh, their leadership role is like

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this, you know, like if I have got

this funding, let's say like 500k or a

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million dollars from the public funds

and I'm hiring a postdocs or PhDs.

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I am paying your salary, so I will

dictate the terms, right, rather

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than understanding that you have

been just selected as a facilitator

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of providing this funding for this

human growth, resource development,

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rather than you being there, but

you know, they're benefactors.

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Geri: And there's so much,

again, like there's, it can

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get complicated because where.

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Now, if you're on the tenure track

path, your case for promotion or your

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case for tenure in three, four years

may in large part be dependent upon

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the outputs of this postdoc or this

PhD student, you know, because that's

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part of the funding and that's part

of what you're going to be judged on.

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And so that can create a lot of

pressures for you where it can play

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out in not like you don't mean to

everyone's got good intentions, I

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believe, generally but because you're

operating from your own sort of stresses

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about, am I going to tick all the

boxes or get enough eggs in my basket?

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You then create a whole lot of pressures

on your students and expectations

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about working ridiculous hours or

having to be perfect or having to

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drive more and more papers because we

can always do one more paper or run

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one more experiment or or whatever and

that's not the way to develop people.

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It's not the way to get good outputs.

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Madhur: I agree.

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So I was kind of fortunate to be in

a different situation during my PhD.

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So that was a traditional

psychology department where

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we were funded by a TAship.

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So we used to teach or, you know, be

a grad assistant with a faculty.

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So of course the TAship was lower

compared to, you know, typical stipend if

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somebody, if a faculty has their own fund.

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But still, it was sustainable.

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And that allowed us a lot of room

because there was no pressure.

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You could continue your PhD, you

know, for large number of years.

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And the PI also did not have

pressure that they need to get this

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fund to be, to be able to pay you.

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So that allowed a lot of room for thought,

allowed a lot of room for learning.

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Yeah.

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Now, for instance, now I have my first

two PhD students, and my startup includes

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two years of salary for both of those.

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Now the thing is I can give them a

lot more room, okay, to explore, but

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I also understand that it will be

detrimental for them because if we as

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a group do not produce pilot data, uh,

a good pilot data, and if we are not

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able to hit a grant within two years.

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How will I fund their,

you know, the PhD, right?

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I know, yeah.

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So, because we do not have that kind

of a TSA program where I am right now.

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So, uh, that creates like a lot

of pressure and that definitely

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takes away a lot of flexibility,

which they might have had.

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Uh, you know, in a, in

a more secure setting.

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Geri: Mm.

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Yeah.

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I know.

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And this is where I was saying

it's very complex about having

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people whose jobs depend on you.

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And this is where we need different

employment models in universities,

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different funding models that

allow some longer horizons for

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people, and some continuity.

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And I, again, I know from a university

admin perspective, that can be challenging

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because if, if at our university they

converted all of our current postdocs

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on short term contracts into full time

contracts just to give people some

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continuity or some confidence for career

paths, that would be unsustainable.

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They don't have the budget.

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It also has implications for space,

you know, buildings, you know, like

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just desks and minimal requirements

of what's needed to, for someone

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to have a healthy workspace.

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This is what we were just saying.

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It's really, it is really complicated.

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I know that there are no easy solutions.

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I think we, we do need to recognize

though, the human costs of many

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of the performance measures and

research assessment measures

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that have been in place to date.

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And, are there ways that we can

compromise, do a little bit of in between

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work and so I'm really, the short term

contracts for postdocs and researchers

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just breaks my heart because I have

people in our own lab, who, don't have

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permanent contracts and they're great

people and, you know, they're trying to

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work hard on projects and helping put

in new proposals to get more funding.

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And they come up to a time limit

of how long they're allowed

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to be employed for as well.

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So there are European laws around that

and on short term funding and they also

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have, family commitments, so they're not.

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As flexible as some other academics

to go, okay, my six year, eight year

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contract as a postdoc period is limited.

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And I have to leave now so I

can move to another country.

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A lot of people don't

have that flexibility.

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And if you're in a town and this

is the main university for this

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area, they're your job prospects.

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And, you know, as a pI or a faculty

member, I was also aware of the

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expertise that we would be losing,

where you'd spent, there'd been a

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whole lot of time and people had built

up all this expertise and were really

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valuable members and could just hit

the ground running and do amazing work.

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But then they hit against some

arbitrary time limit, have to move on.

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So then you've got to start

again with someone brand new.

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And I know that's growing, that's

growing capacity and stuff, but

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yeah, again, at what human cost.

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Madhur: We do lose a lot

of talent from academics.

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I mean, I have so many talented

friends who finally left academia

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because they would have been okay.

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Had they been given a decent salary,

their expectation was not too high,

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but a decent salary to live with the

family and the ability to do research.

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But we do not have that model right now.

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We have, the only model we have

is like a pyramid PI model.

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So, so, uh, you know, or you just keep

doing it as a postdoc with a soft salary.

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Yeah.

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So, so we need like more common

positions somewhere in between for people

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who just don't want to do research.

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Geri: Indeed.

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At the same time, I also am a big

believer, in the beginning we said

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about lots of things happen by chance

and you can, you always sort of end up

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orienting to the same sorts of things

because that's where you're at your

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best or that's what you love doing

or that's what's important to you.

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And so I am also really clear in

talking to PhD students and postdocs.

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really early from the beginning that

academia is not the one and only option.

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Right.

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And you can actually be happy.

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In many different career

paths, they all be different.

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They always involve trade offs.

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Every option involves trade

offs of one sort or another.

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That, you know, like, if you can really

get more clarity about who you are,

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as we said at the beginning, what you

bring, where you're at your best, what

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are your strengths, what are your values.

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You can find ways of playing those out

in multiple different career paths, in

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different ways, in different contexts,

with different impacts, but you can

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still wake up in the morning excited

about what you're going to do at work.

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You know, and a lot of the research

suggests that even if we have, I

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think some of it points to about 20

or 25 percent of our time at work,

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enabling us to do this sort of stuff

that lights us up, that's enough

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to make it, make it work for us.

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You know, you talked

about the bad PhD earlier.

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Madhur: No, I agree with you.

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I mean, uh, just because you did

not continue, that doesn't mean

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that doesn't make you a sellout or

like, uh, you know, not a capable

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PhD or not capable academicians.

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Academic success has a lot to it than

just being like a good researcher.

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Geri: Yeah.

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I, one of the things I'm also encouraged

by, in some countries, you know, some

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institutions is recognizing different

sorts of career paths within academia

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that that some people Brilliant

researchers and really not very good

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in front of the classroom as teachers.

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Other people are really good

mentors, facilitators, supporting

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students and growing people.

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I work with a colleague who's the

most brilliant teacher, he, you know,

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innovative, excited about what he's

teaching, gets students enthusiastic,

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does all sorts of interesting things

in the classroom that I would never be

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able to do, it's just not my not my

skill set and, but not necessarily,

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you know, brilliant researcher.

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But shouldn't be, and should be

recognized and rewarded and have a

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promotion path, a career path that

rewards excellence in teaching or

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excellence in research or excellence

in research management or, whatever.

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And there are things happening where

that's starting to be accepted more.

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Madhur: Right.

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So do you think, uh, this, like,

let's say that, you know, assume,

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let's be optimistic and, assume

that things will change for good.

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For the system to become more

sustainable and also to enrich

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more early career searchers.

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Would it be within the same funding

agencies, shifting the mandates

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or would it be, or do we actually

need interventions where we like

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at the congressional level that we

have new bodies with a completely

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different mandate and slowly.

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You know, kind of depleting these

institutions existing on the resources and

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shifting those resources to the new model.

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So will the change be from the inside

or will it be a slow demolishment

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of the current establishment?

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Geri: And like, this is where it's a

really complex space because I, if I just

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bring it back to my own situation, so

It's important to me to say to students,

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you know, like, we don't expect you to

work weekends or after hours, we want

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you to have a life, there's more to life

than work, like these are a reasonable

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number of publications to aim for.

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So we try to create some sense of balance

because we know that if we can create

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the conditions where people are well and

healthy and have a balanced life, well

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not balanced because there's no such

thing as balance, but have different

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aspects in their life when they come

to work, they will be, you know, all

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of the research is clear that they

will be more creative, better problem

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solvers, better collaborators and so on.

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And so they're likely

to produce good outputs.

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I'm saying to people this is good enough.

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Like it's really good enough.

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You're doing great.

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And then they go for, they want to go, I'm

going to pick on the U S because I think

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it's, there's a particular culture there.

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Now in our area, sometimes you even

need publications at key top quality

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venues to even get into a PhD program.

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Madhur: Oh, so, uh, literally

like this is actually the reality.

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I mean, you can't get a PhD, scholarship

or, or entry to the graduate program

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if you don't have publications.

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And I don't blame that because when

I applied to that school, I had eight

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publications, like during my master's

and two years of work after my master's.

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So if I have like a two year

internship after my master's

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that I published and I had eight.

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And you have a student, you know,

maybe bright, maybe brighter, with

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no output, faculty is inclined

to take those who actually have.

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Publications.

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Geri: I know.

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And I know that that's

the culture in the U.

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S.

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And so if we're working in a different

culture and we have students coming

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through bachelor's and master's

programs, but there's nowhere

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near the emphasis on publications.

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You know, the occasional master's

student, bachelor's student may get

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a publication, especially if they

happen to be working on a project.

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that the supervisors set up or some other

funded project that they contributed to.

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But it's not normal.

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Like most master's students, good master's

students won't have a publication.

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So they come out of that system and

then they go into a PhD program.

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If they decide they want to go to the

US, they're not going to be competitive.

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If I've got people coming out of PhD

where we, you know, like the, some of

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the rules say, some institutions say

like three good quality publications

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is around what we expect, but you

know that they want to go to the U.

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S.

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for a postdoc and to be competitive

there for a postdoc, anyone else

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in the pool will have 12, 14, and

then 15, it becomes this arms race.

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Madhur: I had about 25 plus, around 28

when I was, when I graduated with a PhD.

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And really, even then it was very

hard for me to find a postdoc.

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It was not everyone took it.

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I had very few options even after that.

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Geri: I can try to change

the culture locally and say.

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You know, like you've got enough,

you're going to burn out if you just

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keep working every weekend to get yet

another paper, yet another paper, and

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they're not going to be of good quality.

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And that's why I'm hoping that

the push for quality over quantity

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might stop some of that arms race.

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But we're operating in an

international culture, so I can do

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that in my own group and it may not

fit the rhetoric of the faculty.

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So the faculty may have stronger

requirements, you know, and it may

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not fit the rhetoric of what the

national body that government is

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putting in place and saying to the

universities they want to evaluate their

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performance on in order to get the next

five year funding for their budgets.

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And it may not fit with international

context, if people want to be

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mobile, because there's a lot of

mobility in the academic sector.

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So I think some of these initiatives

like DORA, the San Francisco Agreement,

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like COARA at the European level, may be

starting to change, but it's got to be,

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it's got to be an international change.

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And that means multiple levels, you know,

like governmental levels, funding agency

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levels, university levels, faculty levels,

group levels, individual supervisors.

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I

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Madhur: mean, I mean, there is some,

some stuff, for instance, when we

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apply an NIH grant and you apply for an

NIH grant, it allows you to put only

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four different areas of contribution,

four or five, and each of those,

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you can list only four publications.

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So basically you cannot list

more than 20 publications in

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the whole biosketch, right?

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So that kind of controls for,

because then you can look at,

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are, are, are themes consistent?

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You know, is it the similar kind

of work or is it just a number of

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publications which are, you know, so

likewise in grad applications, right?

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In grant applications we can have

like, you know, in your CV you

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actually fill in the CV rather than

actually having your own format.

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And you have like, like, you know,

name your two best publications.

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And you will be evaluated on those two

best publications and not at that level,

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for a master's student and not on like

whether you publish like 10, you're

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mostly like co authored with someone.

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Geri: That's encouraging.

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And it would be really good if faculties

doing searches for employing people.

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Yeah.

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Did a similar thing.

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Madhur: Uh, but, uh, for

a person who is like.

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You know, early career, the only

option that person has is to just

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go with whatever the system asks.

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I know.

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And just give the deliverables, right?

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Deliverables.

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Yeah.

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So, so, so where do you stand on that?

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Geri: I'm, I'm acutely aware of the

privilege position that I'm in to

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be able to speak about these things.

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I'm also acutely aware of the privilege

that I've had in my career trajectory

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that I have been, I guess, ahead of the

wave of a lot of these pressures, where

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I was never, I never felt personally

driven by these sorts of pressures.

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If I was driven, it was more

by my own wanting, my own

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criteria that I put on myself.

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And I, that's what I was saying before

about, you know, like, I'm conscious that

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I might say to a student, you're good

enough, you've done enough, it's good

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work, you know, you're allowed to have

other things in your life beyond work.

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And I know that I might not be doing them

a favour in setting them up for different

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career paths if They want to go to the U.

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S.

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and, and everyone else

has got 28 publications.

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So for me, it's about helping them

understand what the trade offs are.

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And it can be that you choose to

play the game now, in order to

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get to there and then be part of

trying to change the dialogue.

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I think that people who are more

senior in their careers have a real

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responsibility to step up and be part

of the conversation and just call out

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some of these practices and some of

the gaming practices and, and arguing

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for different ways of, of engaging,

running their labs in different ways.

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I don't know, it's just.

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It's not about all these

brownie points that we get.

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It's not what's important in life.

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And the usual thing of when you get to

your deathbed, are you going to, you're

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going to be saying, Oh, if only I had

have got that journal paper published,

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you're not going to be saying that.

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And how do we just keep it in perspective?

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And how do we give people a decent living,

that allows them to make good choices?

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So I think that senior

people got a responsibility.

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I think in.

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Mentoring and, and supporting younger

people, making clear the values that

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you hold as important, helping them

navigate and understand the trade offs.

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And in the middle of that, I'm a big

believer in this concept of job crafting,

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which I sort of alluded to before,

which is, if you are having to play the

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game, because this is where you're at,

and you recognize that, you know, the

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change that we want to see is going to be

further on beyond when you're going to be

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:

needing to have your next career steps.

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Are there ways of making more intelligent

choices where you can still play the

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game, but you're making choices that are

much more aligned with your own values?

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And what's important to you where

you're making choices on research

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topics or projects, connect to your

strengths, connect to your values and

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work on things that you care about.

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Because you can still get the

outputs, but they'll be outputs

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:

that you'll be prouder of.

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So you can still aim to play the

game, but can we find ways to shape

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and craft our research identities?

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Again, I just did a podcast on this.

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The last one I put out was about trying

to navigate that tension of research

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identities and how to play the game.

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While still being true to who we are, and

part of that is finding out about who we

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are, like, what is my research identity?

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And how do I step into that?

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And being clear about the compromises

that I'm prepared to make right now.

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As we've said, everything's

a complex space.

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And so I'm trying to be part of

changing the conversation and

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the culture in the small spheres

of influence that I might have.

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And I, you know, yeah, I always say

to people what are the small things we

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can all do to be part of that change.

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We can all be part of changing

academic life for the better.

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Madhur: Yes, I hope so too.

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So thank you, Professor Fitzpatrick,

have a great, day ahead and, we

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look forward to having you, once

again, when we have more cases.

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Geri: And that was an edited extract

from the interview with Madhur

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Mangalam that he did with me for

his Beyond Phrenology podcast.

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I made mention about our academic

leadership development courses.

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And if you're interested in

being part of that, And you are

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:

listening before March seven.

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:

That's March 7th, 2024.

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:

You might be interested in signing

up for the next iteration of the

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:

online academic leadership development

course that Austen Rainer and I

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:

co-facilitate for Informatics Europe.

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:

It'll be starting later in March and I'll

put a link to this in the show notes.

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We put an emphasis on the course in

developing the social and emotional

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:

skills that are a key part of being

a good academic leader developing

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:

people and creating collegial cultures.

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So join us in being part of

creating the change we want to see.

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:

.

You can find the summary notes, a transcript and related

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:

links for this podcast on www.

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:

changingacademiclife.

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com.

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You can also subscribe to

Changing Academic Life on iTunes,

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Spotify and Google Podcasts.

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:

And you can follow

ChangeAcadLife on Twitter.

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And I'm really hoping that we can

widen the conversation about how

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:

we can do academia differently.

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And you can contribute to this by rating

the podcast and also giving feedback.

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:

And if something connected with

you, please consider sharing this

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:

podcast with your colleagues.

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:

Together, we can make change happen.

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