Are you struggling to balance empowering your team while navigating constant change as an NGO leader?

Today my special guest Ross Coxon, Director of Client Delivery for Humentum, joins me in a joint discussion around what is needed to thrive as a modern NGO leader in today's complex environment.

In this episode you'll learn:

• Gain insights on how to build trust within your team and encourage innovation.
• Learn how to balance vulnerability and leadership for stronger, more resilient teams.
• Discover why empowering others (and letting go of control) is key to surviving and thriving in NGO leadership.

Link to Register for Humentum course in partnership with Aid for Aid Workers:

• Becoming the Modern NGO Leader Course

Discover what it takes to survive as a modern NGO leader in our changing

environment in today's episode.

Welcome to The Modern Humanitarian and Development Leader podcast, the

podcast, helping humanitarian and development supervisors make a greater

impact by taking control of your time, leading more inclusively and

empowering your team all the while avoiding stress, burnout, and overwhelm.

I'm your host, leadership coach and former aid worker, Torrey Peace.

Are you ready?

Let's get started.

Hello, my aspiring modern NGO leader.

I hope you're having a wonderful week.

So today's episode, I am excited to introduce a special guest.

In this episode, you're going to learn what modern leaders need to know to be

successful, how modern leaders encourage innovation, and how to survive the current

instability in the humanitarian and development world amongst other things.

And my guest today is Ross Coxon, who is the director of

client delivery for Humentum.

Ross has over two decades of experience in development of those seven are

with Humentum And for those of you, I think most of you probably are

familiar with Humentum but it's basically a platform which offers,

among other things, learning courses for its members, which are primarily

development and social enterprise members.

I think there are about over 400 of them, and I remember myself taking courses on

Humentum when I was working for an INGO.

So Ross is especially passionate about learning and development.

He shares a lot of his ideas and his insights from all of his

experience on today's episode.

So, so I think you're in for a treat.

And I'm excited to announce that Humentum and Aid for Aid Workers, that is my

business, are partnering to offer you the course, "Becoming the Modern NGO Leader".

And this course will start the first week of May and, through this course, you

will learn how to make more of an impact through your team while also reconnecting

with your passion as a leader.

I know a lot of us have kind of lost enchantment with development work and

humanitarian work over the last few years, perhaps since COVID there's

been a lot of talk about burnout and how do we thrive as leaders?

So this course will help you gain that back.

That reason why you decided to become a leader in development in the first

place, how to take care of yourself and have the right mindset in order

to be successful and how to use a coach approach way of leading or

coaching skills in order to empower

those around you, including your team to do their best work to become

more confident, more proactive, more independent so that in the end you

can make a greater collective impact.

This is a practical course.

You'll learn a little bit more about it during the interview.

And there are going to be 16 spots available , once again,

beginning the first week of May.

So I recommend, if you're interested, to go ahead and head over to the link

that's in the show notes and sign up now.

All right.

So let's get into today's interview.

Enjoy.

Welcome, to the, podcast and, maybe you can introduce, yourself and tell us how

do you found Humentum and about your work.

Yeah, it's, it's, I don't know whether it's, it's a super interesting story,

but I, I left university and went as an environmental volunteer to Nepal.

My degree was in environmental studies and geology and, ended up just

holding a lot of training sessions.

I didn't, I didn't really know they were training sessions at the time.

I came back to the UK after that and ended up working in a call center as

you do and ended up being a trainer there and realizing what I'd been doing

in Nepal was in fact training and this was like a thing that you could do.

Unfortunately, I didn't really like working in a call center and it

wasn't really fitting with my values.

So I then was able to get a job.

as a trainer in an international NGO in the city I lived in.

And I was there for a fairly long time, around nine years running their training

department and eventually becoming the global lead for learning and development.

So from not managing anyone to managing to leading a little and then that's

a lot of soft leadership there.

And then One of my clients was an organization called Lingos, who I

used to leverage online learning.

And then I was fortunate enough to get a job with them.

And then I led the function for the e learning.

And I was also doing some training.

And then we became Humentum.

And I'm here.

I think I've had about seven jobs in Humentum since I've been here.

So that's where I am.

I'm now the Director of Client Delivery.

I look after all of our learning and consultancy products.

Trainers and consultants and how we run projects and deliver them to clients.

Can you, but can you just briefly describe Humentum for those who

may not be so familiar with it?

Yeah, so Humentum believes that charities, not for profits, NGOs, INGOs,

environmental organizations working in the sector are pretty good at their mission.

They're pretty good at what they're meant to be doing, what they want to do.

Where organizations tend to struggle is in their operating model, like what

happens behind that mission work: finance, compliance, HR, leadership, management.

And so Humentum run training and consultancy to help organizations

with that, but also bring those organizations together into a

community and help them collaborate, work together and share ideas.

Yeah, my experience, I, I, I had taken some courses with lingos and

I think, I don't, yeah, I think it was PMD pro like project management

development for professionals.

So, yeah.

On that note, as we're talking about training and leadership development,

from your perspective, what would you say it means for someone to be a modern

leader from a Humentum perspective?

I think it's a, it's a really hard question.

And I often think that people talk about management and leadership,

like they're, they're, they're

different, but really they're two sides of the same coin.

And I think, you know, managers are often frustrated by perhaps people

not in their teams, not performing to the best of their ability, or they're

frustrated by the environmental factors that are outside of their team.

So we could, we could do this brilliantly if we just could you know, if this other

team would just get out of our way or do their job properly, whatever it is.

And I think where the leadership kicks in is how do I help the people in my

team understand the golden thread of the vision, the mission, the strategy.

and how they contribute to that and why what they're doing is important?

And how do I get out of my team and go and talk to the other teams and the

other leaders and try and find a way that allows us not to be in each other's way?

Yeah.

Yeah, that's I agree.

And a lot of that also requires trust.

And one thing that I really like that you mentioned just now was

about how sometimes we're focused on things outside of ourselves.

But really, and especially in this environment, which is so dynamic

at the moment with some of the, the especially like the more recently,

the, the funding cuts with us, the U S government and so on.

It's all the more important to look at what is within our sphere of

influence, our sphere of control.

And so for me, I think a modern leader, you know, we talk a lot

about decolonization, localization.

I think even Humentum had a report about a global healthy ecosystem.

And to, to be able to create those things, we need to lead a bit

differently from how most leaders are leading now, from my experience

with coaching hundreds of leaders.

And so what I see is that the modern leader needs to set an example for

others and how they use their time.

So for example, prioritizing or set an example of wellbeing,

caring for themselves.

Really focusing on the things that make the most impact and not the things that

just keep you busy but not productive.

And this then in turn allows their team to do the same thing.

And then the other thing is setting an example for others and how they lead.

So for example, Not needing to be the one with all the answers, which such a common

belief throughout the, the humanitarian development world that me as a leader,

my team, my value comes from having all the answers, but rather how do you work?

Through the team, not for their team.

So rather than being the bottleneck, which has to approve and make decisions

and everything else, empowering those around you through what I like to call

a coach approach way of leading, which is not as natural to me and from what

I've seen, most leaders tend to use more management leadership because of,

you know, they might not have ever been shown that before, or they might not

have the skillset is a lot of times from my experience, leadership, it's

something that can be achieved, but it's something that needs to be learned.

And if you don't have an example, if you've never learned how to use coaching,

for example, as a way of leading, it's, there's a learning curve there.

And so this is what I see as, as some of the skillsets of the modern leader.

I love what you said there, Torrey, and one of the through lines to all of that,

and you said it as well, is trust, right?

And I think

it's

You've got to be vulnerable as well with that trust, right?

So maybe somebody on your team is better at doing a task than you.

That's fine.

And we've seen this in so many sectors.

It's not just the NGO sector where technical experts get put

into management positions because they're great technical experts.

And what happens is that person may be a great manager, may be a great leader.

There may also be a terrible manager and there may also be a terrible leader.

What you've definitely done is lost a technical expert who does a great job, but

there's somehow, and it's that industrial mindset that like the people who are

good at their job should be in charge.

Well, the people who are good at their job should be good

at their job and good managers should be in management positions.

And that, you know, there's always, it seems like you can't have someone

on your team who's paid more than the manager, but I kind of say, well, why not?

Like let's, let's.

use value as a way of rewarding in, in pay systems, but the, to

come back to the trust thing,

you know, we spend as managers and leaders an inordinate amount of time

trying to pick somebody for a job, like trying to recruit the talent.

And then you get someone who you think is absolutely fantastic.

And then you tell them exactly how to do the job that you just recruited them for.

Like, it doesn't make any sense to me at all.

And like, at Humentum, we've got a real advantage that I can

recruit from anywhere in the world.

So actually, the talent pool I'm pulling from is huge.

And we can get amazing people, not just people who live within 50 miles,

like 60 kilometers of, of, of where the office is, but anywhere in the world.

So if we can attract them, we can really get incredible talent.

How do I release that talent and let them do their thing?

And it takes a little bit of courage and a little bit of vulnerability to

say, you know, they're going off you go.

And, and, you know, there's a process to.

you know, allowing them more and more freedom to do their thing.

But I think the, the same is also true with the traditional model

of, of, of INGOs where we spend all of this time looking for a

partner, find a great partner and then put them in a straitjacket.

Yeah.

And this is, I guess it works at so many levels that trust thing.

Yeah.

And, and what I tell a lot of leaders, like, especially when they start.

My course or the course that we're offering now Becoming the Modern NGO

Leader is that, you know, as you go up, especially as you go up and up

the leadership change and you're supervising more and more people, your

role becomes more about surrounding yourself with the right people and

less about having all the answers.

And so that requires a lot of trust, like you're saying.

And one thing that I wish I had had Ross, because I worked for an NGO that was very

much about working through implementing partners, which was wonderful.

However, at the time, at least we had no training on how to do that.

It was just go and do it.

And so once again, kind of like what I mentioned.

Before what I found was that my natural inclination, because even after having

a master's in business, we did not learn anything about leadership.

We only learned about management.

And so my examples of, from others, my mentors and my training.

Did not allow me to have the skill set to be able to empower the local

implementing partners and having the right conversations and asking

questions that will allow them to solve their own problems, which

is exactly what was really needed.

And so I would get frustrated.

They would get frustrated.

You try to tell them what to do.

You teach them again.

They're not doing it.

Why?

And so it's this

fear of, of, of risk and fear of failure that, that, that, that

makes this environment where as soon as you accept that, guess what?

Things go wrong.

Right?

Not, not all of your staff are going to get it all of the right.

All right.

All of the time.

Sure.

And sometimes you're going to try something that's not

going to work with this,

this learning there.

And actually the next time you do it, it'd probably knock it out of the park.

So how is a leader at whatever level?

Do you allow mistakes?

How do you dare to fail?

And, and when it goes wrong, sit with that team or that person

and understand why it went wrong and what you could do next time.

And use that as a learning experience rather than a stick to beat them with.

Why would you do that?

Yeah, and in that conversation is also a great use of coaching as a

way of leading, which as if you can probably tell, that's what the modern

leader NGO leader does is know how to balance the telling with the asking.

And what I what I observe is most people do more telling than asking.

And you're right, like a part of that is setting boundaries like around

how, how much failure is allowed here?

How can I set a boundary on the amount of the budget or the time?

Where is failure allowed and where isn't it?

Right.

Right.

We're not allowed failure in contract, really, that's bad.

Failure in this project might be actually okay.

And, and being clear about.

Those that tolerance, if you will.

I mean, if you want innovation, you have to fail by definition.

Yeah.

So,

so the whole, the whole traditional structure is based on having zero failure,

which of course encourages failure because you can't have zero failure.

So, you know, I think that's, it's really interesting, Torrey.

How do you, how does the course itself help learners explore this,

this approach where there's more trust, more freedom, knowing You know, that,

that Hersey and Blanchard situational leadership model, like when do you

lead, when do you manage, when do you coach, when do you give freedom?

How do you, how do you and that individual be at the same place?

Like what what's the course doing to help people understand how to

take that more coaching approach?

Yeah, sure.

So, I mean, there are basically three steps I see to becoming a modern leader.

And part of it is adopting more of a coaching leadership style

or what I call a coach approach.

So

for example, I think, and I'm just going to back up a minute in order

to explain the bigger picture here.

So one is, I think a lot of leaders in order to, it's kind of like, you

know, that the, I don't know if you're familiar with Simon Sinek, he's a big

leadership trainer and role model for a lot of people, but he talks about find

your why and what I find is that a lot of times we spend a lot of time looking

at project impact and our why in terms of our job description or what we're

doing for our department or whatever, but we don't Think about what is our

impact we want to make as a leader?

How do we want to be remembered as a leader?

And so I think that is a first step in becoming the modern leader.

And the reason is because when you are tested for allowing people to

fail, when you are tested for, you just want to tell them what to do

because it's easier and faster.

You have your why.

So if you stick with your why, and what I find is, I had a student who once

she had this vision, she realized, Oh, the way I'm leading is not going to

make this impact because I'm taking the shortcut by telling people what to do.

I'm not allowing them to fail.

And so I need to focus more on this impact I want to create, which is

empowering my team, getting giving them more responsibility and so on.

So I think that's a very clear and important first step.

And

I think Daniel Pink talks about purpose, doesn't he?

A lot.

Yes.

Motivation.

That motivation that like, why am I here?

Why am I doing my job?

Like people don't go to work to be bored and to do the minimum.

Actually, like people go to work to express themselves and especially

in our sector, go to work to make a difference in this world.

And maybe as a leader, you just got to get out of the way and make an

environment in which they can do that.

And then when there's an exception.

You can step in and help them and pick them back up and

get them back going again.

That's I'm so glad you brought up Daniel Pink because it's also a video that I show

in the course because What I find is his study and it was global right because

a lot of times we think this is only, oh, oh, it's a Western thing or a global

North thing or whatever, but it's not.

This is a human thing.

This is human dignity, human desire for autonomy over our piece of the pie.

And that requires empowering your team.

You know, people want to grow.

If they're in a healthy environment, they want to grow, they want to advance.

And this is a way to, to allow them to do that.

So like having this, this vision.

Of the impact you want to create is the first thing we focus on in the course.

Then from there, what another thing that I've found, which has really

prevented a lot of leaders from spending time on that impact they want to

create is they are caught up in this traditional way of thinking and working.

So a lot of busyness that the day to day activities don't align with where

they want to go in the future in terms of the impact they want to create,

but also there's certain ways of thinking certain belief systems in the

humanitarian development space, which are creating more busyness and more work.

Greater workload.

And so overcoming those is our second step.

So looking at ourself, how do I help myself?

How do I put my own oxygen mask on?

Like you talk about in the plane before we help others.

Tell me a little bit about your experience with people coming on the

course, hearing you say all of this great stuff and they say, you know,

that's, you know, that, that's fine.

That sounds great.

And I imagine you're really good at that Torrey, because that's kind

of authentically who you are, but that's not authentically who I am.

I'm not that kind of manager, that kind of leader.

I feel uncomfortable with.

X. How do you make sure that they can stay authentically then, which I think

is super important, but also change?

Yeah.

Yeah.

It's a great question.

And actually the question I usually get is less about, although I think it's more

like what you're asking, but what they ask is my team has strong personalities

or my, my culture is what's preventing me from trying this leadership style.

And so we talk about that in the course, because it's very common.

Like a lot of people bring that and we talk about how there's

different types of culture, right?

There's your country culture, there's organizational culture, you have

family culture, and a lot of this is all about, like, what we've learned,

what we believe, and so how do we look at some of those things and try?

And small steps, what you feel comfortable with, or your team feels comfortable

with, like occasionally, because what I usually tell them is start with a,

you know, a team member who you know, will be open and receptive to this.

And then once you're comfortable and they're comfortable with it,

then you can start to expand.

And probably also the other team members will be watching and noticing and then.

You'll have somebody who can talk to their experience and the

benefits of the style and so on.

So, yeah, I mean, most leaders, I think the, the issue they bring up

is more about their team and less about them, even though sometimes

a lot of it is about their own, you know, like their own limitations.

I think that's really great advice.

And, and, you know, it is.

It is hard, you know, you, there are many different working cultures

across the world and the, and, and management is viewed very differently.

Yeah.

Even, even, you know, continentally, it's, it can shift radically, let

alone in, and even in a country, right?

There's no reason to say that the north and the south of a country or

the east or the west of the country have the same ethics and culture.

And, and, you know, there are, there are subgroups to the

subgroups to the subgroups, but everybody goes to work to feel good.

Doing a really good day at work in my experience, globally,

makes people feel fulfilled and needed and therefore happier.

And people who don't like their job and are just like doing what their boss

tells them and they don't really like their boss, they're less happy at work.

So, you

know, I think you've got to take all of this stuff and interpret

it to, you know, we talked about a couple of theories, right?

They're all Western theories.

Everything we talked about today, like the stuff going on in other

people's cultures, in other people's environments, that is just as relevant.

Old stories and, and, and ways that, that elders have led and, and, and exemplified

leadership or all relevant here.

So the question is, are you thinking about it?

Are you trying stuff out?

Yeah.

Are you trying to do better?

And how are you leading your people in a, in a kind of conscious way?

Yeah, such a great point.

And, and one, one thing a lot of people I think bring up is like, for

example, in a more hierarchical culture, I think even recently someone from

Nepal actually was telling me, Oh, well, this is how, you know, in our

culture, this is how it's usually done.

But what we find also, as they say, but In the NGO culture, this is more receptive.

The way that you're telling me to lead is actually more well received

than the government, for example.

Like if I was working in the government, it would be very hurtful.

I wouldn't, wouldn't have any autonomy or less autonomy, for example.

Whereas if I'm working in an NGO, it's almost like this.

is more of the culture of an NGO.

. I, I think that, you know, if you get people to sit down and write down what

they think the attributes of a good leader and a good manager is, and what

the attributes or the behaviors of a, of a bad leader slash manager is,

Globally, in my experience at least, people come up with pretty similar lists.

How you get to that end point can be quite different, but the end

point is kind of always the same.

So I, I, I'm always warmed by that, like, you know, Do you think that

way of leading is good or bad?

People tend to sort of roughly agree, whether they think it's possible

or not.

Yeah, I think you're right there.

I mean, like, back to like, it's about human dignity, right?

It's like a human need or desire, and the way that we grow, the

way that we have autonomy over our own ability to do things.

And less about like one culture, one way.

So, yeah.

Right.

And, and, and, you know,

everybody is a unique individual, right.

And, and the, the, the quicker as leaders managers, we just accept this

fact and, and say, well, all of these people on my team, regardless, of

their background and how culturally sort of homogeneous they are.

Like, they're all individuals.

Everybody's an individual and everybody has a unique skill and talent to bring

and providing you're recruiting well, you know, you've got a really good

team, let them go do their thing.

And you're the facilitator, and in some cases the shield, to allow

that team to, to self fulfill.

Yeah, such a great point, Ross.

So I want to just start wrapping up, because I know that we're,

we're starting to go over time.

So I do have a, a question for you that I think is somewhat relevant, and then I can

Speak to it as well, but like, and given all the change that's happening right

now in the humanitarian and development sectors with all of the things with USG

funding, as well as many other things that are happening in the world, how do you

think that a modern leader, let's say, can manage this uncertainty with their teams?

It's a, it's a great question and, and I'm sure there's many people

with a, with a better answer to this than me because, you know, this

is, this is moment defining, right?

This is, this is a seismic shift and

my whole career in the sector.

So the last, oh God, 24 years we've been saying we need to,

we need to change the sector.

Everybody's been telling me this, like the need is greater than ever.

We need to be better at what we're doing.

There are fundamental problems.

Does this lead us to that?

Is this the the uncomfortable event that allows us to, to change?

I don't know, but as leaders, I think you have to accept that change is constant.

There's no, there's no getting around it and no one likes that.

No one likes that truth.

Not really.

Everybody wants something to stay the same.

I'd like it summer all year round and it's just not and it's unfair.

But You know, the agility to understand the need to change the,

the stoic nature of, like, what are we, we're trying to, what are we trying to

do here when, you know, everybody in the sector is all roughly speaking, trying

to make this world a better place.

Like, let's not lose sight of that.

Like, let's hold on to that, like, ultimate purpose, but be agile about

how we fit into that and understand that you and your team are going through

a moment of unprecedented change.

And it's really, really, really complicated and challenging for everybody.

And no matter how little or not people are, or how much people are affected,

you know, there's just a lot going on.

And they, one.

On one day, they may feel one way and an hour later, they may feel differently.

And

as a leader, you haven't got to solve that.

You should empathize and understand that.

And just, I don't know what everybody's doing.

Probably everyone has a better idea than me.

I am trying to do the next most practical thing and identify what that

is with my team and then go get it.

And then just try and keep everybody pushing for that thing.

And you know, this too will pass.

What about you, Torrey?

Any advice for me?

I think you already mentioned a few things that are worth pointing out.

One is empathy.

I think that's such, so key with not only empathy for our teams, but

empathy for ourselves in this moment.

And doing what you need to do to take care of yourself in order to

be able to take care of others.

Like, for me, that's been getting off of social media and the news.

I feel like right now I'm going through a sense of like a grieving process.

And that's part of the first part of being able to accept.

That this is happening this change and and being able to move

through that to the other side.

But also I think another thing that is important is around kind

of what you also mentioned, which is, where's the opportunity here?

Like looking at our mindset, right?

The mindset at this time can be very, very important because focusing on what

we have control over, which it sounds like what you're doing with your team

is very important in this time, because it gives you a sense of empowerment.

It gives your team something to do in a sense of empowerment.

And, you know, one of the things that I teach in the course.

And what I like to call thought downloads is how much our thinking

impacts the way we feel and what we do.

And that in turn leads to a certain result.

So being aware of your thoughts, of your mindset doing what I

like to call thought downloads.

Where you just Write down all of your thoughts on a sheet of paper

so you can see them in front of you.

Cause a lot of times we have thoughts that we're not even really aware in our heads

and they might be impacting us in some way and leading us to not take action or to

take action in a way that we don't want.

So I think all those things are really key right now.

And of course, first, you know, prioritizing, taking care of

yourself, because if you don't do that, you can't take care of others.

And, you know, the, the, the stress and the pressure that comes with

leadership positions at this time is, is, is immense for so many people.

And, you know, I don't want to make light of what people

are facing right now globally.

You know, it really is incredibly challenging and, you know, I encourage

all those leaders making really, really, really difficult decisions that You can

only do your best and you just really must take care of yourself as well as

you can in order for you to be able to help others as well as you can.

And I think so many leaders are so selfless that, you know, they

forget about themselves so much and it's really important that

they take care of themselves at the same time as everyone else.

Yeah, and, and yeah, no, I mean, I think that's a great point.

I also think that sometimes

when we are sacrificing ourself and we're being like what you

call, like we think selfless.

actually ends up being more selfish in a way because we end up not being

able to help others and, and help, you know, like to be able to do the things

that would really make an impact.

And so, yeah, like we talked about earlier in this interview,

like really walking the talk.

I think Humentum also is very much about walking your talk.

That's one of our core values.

That's one of the things that attracted me to you guys, because when I

interviewed Christine Sow, she was talking about walking your talk, and

I very much believe in that as well.

And so, you know, how can you walk your talk during this time?

Yeah, I, I think, you know,

you've got to look at, you know, yourself, your own, if you will, personal strategy,

vision, mission, values, like how are they aligning to what you're doing right

now and if you're doing something that doesn't align with those, then how do

you set that with yourself, but also your organization and know whether

that's a whole organization or a function of that organization, you know, what

are those values that you stand by?

And are you still exhibiting the behaviors that you want to exemplify?

If one of those values is, let's say, honesty, then, you know, being vulnerable

in front of your team as a leader, I mean, not all the time, right, that's, that's,

I'm not encouraging that, but there are moments where you can be vulnerable and

say what you're feeling and it's okay, it's okay, because they all know that,

you know, if you're an organization who's been receiving funding from another

organization or directly from, from, you know, USAID and I know you, you've had a

massive funding cut, it's hard and, and for you to pretend that it's not is, it's

unfair to everybody because they all know anyway, and they want to support you.

So I think, you know, saying what you're going to do, doing what you're

saying, and you know, applying your own values as best as you can, as often

as you can is, is what I would say.

Yeah, I love that.

So maybe we'll wrap up on that note, Ross.

Thank you so much.

This has been really fun.

Yeah.

Discussion.

Thank you, Torrey.

Yeah.

It's great to, great to come on the podcast and chat with you.

Yeah.

And I'm very excited about our partnership together.

I look forward to this course in May.

That's right.

It is.

And you know, I think if, if anyone was interested in any part of this discussion

and wants to explore any of it further, they should, they should definitely

you know, sign up and explore it.

And I think the other thing is just to remind everybody that if you did

do a leadership course many years ago, and it was super powerful, like,

imagine revisiting that stuff and maybe exploring some new stuff and just having

time to reflect and reset, especially in these difficult times, could be

a really important thing for you to do for your self care as a leader.

So I encourage everybody to really think about the impact this could

have on them and their day to day.

Well said.

Thank you, Ross.

All right.

Thanks, Torrey.

Okay.

So I don't know about you, but I learned a lot from Ross, from his, all of his

wonderful experience and leadership and learning and development on this

interview, amongst other things, we talked about the importance of trust,

how failure and allowing others to fail can be important and lead to innovation.

And how important it is these days to have empathy and also lead by

example in our ever changing world.

And if you want to learn more about this and become a modern leader

yourself, please do check out the link in the show notes to the course

that Humentum and I are offering.

Once again, it is the first week of May.

And if you go to that link, you will see more information and

also how to reserve your spot.

All right.

So until next week, keep evolving.

Bye for now.

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