Instead of a single, pivotal moment, Sarah Jones compares her journey towards social justice work to a fire that ignited during her first experiences with race and racism in the 1st grade, defining further memories and experiences as the logs that kept the fire burning.

She shares a story about how studying abroad as a first-generation college student revealed how capitalism reinforces inequity by limiting access to travel opportunities, especially for Black and Brown students. Her experience clarified her commitment to making travel experiences more accessible and inclusive, which she does in her work today, leading global leadership programs with an intentional focus on equity.

Sarah shares what sustains her, what keeps her up at night when it comes to global equity trends, and why rest, community, and storytelling matters in social justice work.

You can Connect with Sarah Jones on LinkedIn.

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Social Justice Origin Stories is produced, edited, and hosted by Relando Thompkins-Jones.

00:00 Study Abroad Spark

02:07 Money Shapes Access

03:32 Career Mission Emerges

06:00 Show Identity and Values

07:19 Meet Sarah Jones

13:10 Early Racial Awakening

17:40 Soccer Field Microaggressions

20:42 Finding Support Systems

24:13 Mentors Megan and Monroe

29:58 Spanish and Demographic Shifts

36:59 Katrina Displacement Story

46:03 Leading with Equity Today

51:01 Why This Work Matters

52:51 Alumni Moment of Support

54:34 Representation Fuels the Fire

58:09 What Keeps Me Up

01:02:54 Internalized Oppression

01:11:17 Internalized Superiority

01:16:35 Mentors and Rest

01:22:46 Black Food as Joy

01:30:05 Gratitude and Shoutouts

01:33:03 Listener Takeaways

01:35:10 Finish the Statements

01:38:30 Wisdom for the Future

01:39:31 Naming the Journey

01:41:52 Closing and Community

So let's talk more about this social justice fire.

One of the things that I think about with my college experience, you know, I don't think I knew it at the time, but one thing I look back on positively because I think it's influenced my life in a lot of different ways, was my opportunity to study abroad.

And I say opportunity because it wasn't just like I decided to study abroad.

It was an opportunity that I had that I was very privileged to have.

And of course, you know, I went to Spain to be able to again, better my understanding of the language and just kind of learn a bit more about Spanish culture.

But I remember before even deciding that I wanted to go to Spain, I mean, there were all these other really exciting, shorter study abroad opportunities that you could go do.

And I remember thinking, you know, yeah, sure, of course I want to go to Malta.

That sounds amazing.

It sounds like it's going to be very warm.

It's going to be in the summertime, so it's really probably going to be more fun than schoolwork.

But I remember again being, you know, talked to by my mom after learning about, learning more about study abroad experience through my brother's study abroad experience, that they're not all created the same.

You have to look at how much you're paying in the credits and making sure everything makes sense.

And I should also name that, you know, we, as my siblings and I, we didn't know we were first generation because again, that terminology wasn't something that was really talked about quite a bit when, you know, we were applying to college or even in college.

I was, well, after college, before I kind of even understood that I was a first generation college student.

But I named that because I think that there's so many missing pieces of the puzzle, information that's just not given to a lot of people and individuals.

And so when I think about it in the study abroad sense, I think, okay, my mom, you know, understood more about what study abroad is for my brother and now she's going to teach that to me and make sure that everything transfers back to, to my schooling to make sure it makes sense and is financially sustainable.

So I was told, no, you're absol not going to Malta.

That does not make sense for what you're studying or what you are planning to do.

And even financially, you should go to Spain because you're studying Spanish.

All this will transfer back X, Y and Z.

What stuck with me about all of that is how so much of the study abroad experience is just really, really, really focuses on the finances of everything.

Right.

I think I something I say day in and day out, as capitalism runs this world.

And you can see it very clearly in the industry of study abroad if you have piles and piles of money, generational wealth, anything like that, your opportunity to be able to study abroad and do an experience that you really want to.

If you want to spend that summer six weeks in Malta and probably spend time on the beach and the pools, more so than in a classroom, yes, you may have that opportunity.

More so when you have more money in your pockets, you're able to think freely about credits that won't transfer back and it doesn't really matter because you're having an immersive experience.

Whereas everything that I took in my study abroad experience was very calculated.

We wanted to make sure it transferred back to my degree and that it wouldn't put me behind and cause an extra semester of college, which again is more money.

So, you know, I think about that experience quite a bit because not only did it stick with me then and impact where I ended up traveling to and of course had a great experience.

I actually look back on it as my favorite aspect of college was studying abroad.

But, you know, I think it really shifted what I wanted my career focus and my goals to be, which is making study abroad more accessible for black and brown individuals like us.

And I think even now, I think I never knew what I wanted to be at a young age.

I was never that kid dressing up as a doctor and saying, I want to be a doctor.

I don't even have pictures of me doing any of that.

But what I can say is, very quickly after my study abroad experience, I thought to myself, this is what I need to do.

I need to make sure that I'm in some realm of, you know, traveling folks abroad that allows me to think about the barriers to doing that and how I can work to break those down and shift this to be a more accessible opportunity.

As a whole, travel people make sure they're getting the exposure that advances them in their, their personal life, the way they view the world, but also their professional life too.

And I'm so glad to see that, you know, I've been able to live that in my truth, and maybe not on a traditional college campus, but I feel like I have a fantastic opportunity to actually do that on a much bigger scale right now.

And that is kind of what drives me on a day in, day out basis when I am struggling with the nuances and the frustrations that come up in every single organization.

But I think about the blessing that I have the opportunity to now do something that I felt was incredibly necessary when I needed it the most and didn't have it.

And I get to hopefully create programs where I'm traveling black and brown people, historically excluded groups, and making sure that they have the exposure to the world and the access that a lot of other people, it's a lot of money get the opportunity to do, as I reflect on it, is focused on human to human interaction.

It's not the completion of a massive audit that's gotten done and it changed the script on how we're doing a program.

It's not the fact that we, you know, are brought in more funding, for example, is a hundred percent.

The fact that we are changing people's lives and how they're looking at things.

And for me, it's always going to be about every single, you know, a person who's been marginalized, excluded, and how I can try and uplift their story, pour into them and ensure that they're a part of the conversation, that they have a seat at the table.

That's, that's what I care about.

And I, I feel in my small pocket of the world, I'm trying, trying to achieve that change.

This is Social Justice Origin Stories.

I'm your host, Rolando Tompkins Jones.

Social Justice Origin Stories is a storytelling project that highlights personal stories and defining moments that have inspired individuals and organizations to labor for equity and social justice through truth telling, the honest sharing of their experiences.

Storytellers teach us about themselves, enabling us to learn about ourselves and our world through their stories.

By reconnecting with pivotal moments of activation in their lives, they invite us to do the same.

At Social Justice Origin Stories, we believe that there's power in storytelling and lived experience is experience.

There's room enough for all of us to do this work.

There are many ways to contribute, and our contributions don't need to be the same.

We can enter and remain engaged in the work using the gifts that are special to us while supporting others and using theirs.

We have the capacity to grow and change for the better when exposed to new information and experiences.

We believe in our inherent worth and capabilities, and we possess the power to inspire and create change within ourselves and others.

We can transcend the confines of the status quo to imagine and design more equitable and humanizing systems.

Thank you for being here.

Thank you.

We can transcend the confines of the status quo that we've been given, and storytelling and story sharing plays a really powerful role in that.

And so I'm really happy to have a friend of mine here with me.

Sarah Jones.

Sarah Jones, thank you so much for being here, Sarah.

Sarah and I go back to time in the consulting space, working with organizations and supporting them in imagining and designing more equitable and humanizing spaces and systems and structures.

It's been a real honor to work with you when we did.

And even just our conversations, getting to know you as a person.

And while time has passed and we're still doing our work in different places, it was really incredible to still have that connection where, like I said, hey, would you be willing to come on and share your story with us?

And I appreciate you for answering that call and being here today.

Yeah, absolutely.

And thank you so much for having me, Rolando.

I mean, I look back on our time together very fondly.

I feel, you know, you've always brought such important energy to equity work.

Your big belief in reflection, I think, encourages me to consider that everywhere we go.

So just really excited to be here, sharing my story and adding to a project that I know is very near and dear to your heart.

So just thank you so much for having me.

And hello to everyone.

My name is Sarah Jones.

I'm very excited to be able to share a bit of my story.

I would say that I identify as someone who is biracial, who is quite queer, who is just trying her best out here as a woman living in D.C. trying to work and inspire the next generation of leaders.

I do leadership development work, of course, with my background in equity and inclusion, I always try and bring in, how can the next generation of who is going to lead public and private sector in the United States?

How is it going to be inclusive and how are we going to ensure that the future institutions are diverse and that our talent is retained within those organizations as well.

I have a deep background in higher education as well, which I think is very important to say kind of tripped into educations and have been there ever since, working at an institution in Washington, D.C. and I think a lot of what I do focuses on leadership, how we can make sure that individuals are understanding their place in systems that may feel too big for them to shift changes in and really making sure that folks are inspired right day in and day out.

Last thing I'll say around who I am is I think that for me, the values of authenticity, transparency and empathy, I really try and bring that into everything that I do.

Whether I'm leading an organization through understanding those difficult conversations and trying to shift the needle and become more inclusive, I'm always showing up really Authentically, I believe that human centered work is incredibly important and it's how we, we stay, I guess, away from the isolationism that we can see on the rise not only here in the United States, but globally as well.

As you're talking, I'm remembering, yeah, I remember.

That's one of the things we connected on early on, that higher ed experience.

I also appreciate you talking about your value of authenticity, because that's also one of the things I remember of you from our work too is like, all right, what are our values saying and what are we doing?

Is that consistent?

You know, and all the ways you will move and support organizations being true to themselves, true to what they're saying externally, but then also supporting folks and reflecting and turning that reflection inward too.

And how are we showing up for each other within the organization side?

When you say authenticity, I was immediately taken back to those, to those days.

So I just appreciate you being here, reflecting on your social justice origin story.

You talked about your career trajectory with a focus on your identities and how that impacted your experience, focusing on being brought in to fix issues that you didn't create, doing pro bono work, and then also prioritizing everyone else, including the organizations, over yourself.

Absolutely.

When I was given this really important question that of course I'm a name reflection over and over again around how we should really be processing how our past influences how we show up today.

And I was really grateful to have the opportunity to reflect on my career trajectory and really how.

How I even stand true.

My values today, why I stand true in the specific values I stand true in and how I bring that into everything that I do.

So.

So I really wanted to speak about my experience in different careers because I think that so much of it has informed who I am today.

And also, you know, kind of thinking about even how I got into social justice work is very much based on my lived experience over time and really thinking again about levels of how inequities can impact you and how much of that I can look back on with a very clear eye and almost instantly talk about how that shaped who I am.

So happy to get into all that.

And I'll start by just saying, you know, for my career trajectory, even going into the university, I didn't know exactly what I was going to be studying or what I wanted to look into, and ended up attending a predominantly white university and studied psychology in Spanish because I just felt that it was something that was, you know, useful to me and, and something I enjoyed studying throughout high school.

So I never really Think I knew what I wanted to be and what I wanted to achieve.

But I knew that I liked learning about people.

I knew I liked, you know, working together among people and really trying to understand community as a whole.

So I think that pushed me towards psychology.

But I'll actually go back a bit first before kind of getting into that, the piece around, you know, what happened in, in college.

But when I think about my identities and how they've even shown up today, I, I.

One of the questions we would talk about in a first year class that I teach at an institution in Washington, D.C. was all around race, racism, and how we show up in systems of oppression.

One of the questions we always ask our students is take a moment to reflect on the first time you understood your racial identity.

What does that look like to you?

Does that mean.

And it was really important for us to be asking that question at a predominantly white institution.

And for me, I would always share out, because I am authentic to who I am, I would share out that my first understanding of my racial identity wasn't necessarily in the household of where you're brought up, because my household is a mixed family household.

My mom is born in India, grew up in England, and then met my father in London and immigrated over to Virginia where they live right now then.

So, you know, always people of color in the house, things like that.

It wasn't like my racial identity felt very important inside that house, you know.

And of course, I'm talking about a very young age of getting along with everyone.

I was very well liked in school.

And even with that, there was a student in my first grade class, we were in the hallway.

I remember it so clearly.

We were in the hallway.

I was getting a drink of water and he turned around and looked at me and said, sarah, I don't want to be your friend because you're the color of my poop.

And I'll never forget that because it was in the hallway, my other classmates were there, and of course, you know, six years old, let alone at 16, very rarely do people know how to react when something like that happens.

And a teacher at that day and age, you know, they didn't know how to react either.

So no one said anything.

And I just kind of silently cried on my way to music class.

And the fact that I can remember so much about that, it truly sticks with you.

Yeah, it sticks with you.

And I'm hearing you say like, at the time, but now you have a clearer mind about it at the times it was very painful and it still resonates because, as you said, you can still remember it now.

I remember you saying it sounded like in your home, lots of value toward your identity.

So you get a lot of positive reinforcement.

And then going to school, that.

That's when you had that experience where the kid is like, I can't be your friend because the color of your skin.

I mean, we're.

You're an educator.

I'm an educator.

It makes me think about that socialization piece and the kind of socialization that the kid was getting too.

And you say, yeah, you feel for people now.

It is very, very striking that you can still remember that to this day.

One of the things I appreciated about you framing your experiences is in talking about your journey, you use the language around fire like a spark.

So you start with a spark, and you talked about these different logs that were added to your fire in terms of igniting your passion for fire, for social justice work, your experience when you're in first grade there, that was the spark.

What are some things that you continue to see and notice that moved you forward in your journey?

Yeah, I mean, I think that that instance was number one spark for me.

Made me realize, yes, you know, there is a difference based on the color of our skin and how we're treated.

Right.

So I think on an individual level, I think that probably caused a lot.

Of.

Internalized struggle on so many different levels of, you know, am I good enough?

Am I enough to be in this room or in this space?

Which, of course, still impacts me as a biracial woman in the workforce today.

Um, even before getting to that piece, I would say there's so many different layers, and I do see it as a fire.

And the reason I was very intentional with my language is because, number one, I think you need to be intentional with language when doing, you know, storytelling and specifically talking about justice.

And I think it gives me such a deep connection to also my ancestors, because a lot of us were not able to write down our stories.

So it was really in how do we connect with one another and shape and tell our story to make sure that the impact lives on.

So to that degree, I think after understanding racial identity and kind of thinking about being othered in general, a lot of that kind of just showed up in my upbringing as well.

I feel like I had a lot of different groups of friends.

I was well liked and was definitely.

I feel like I found community in many different spaces.

One of those being on the soccer field.

So I played soccer a lot of my life and enjoyed it quite a bit.

But I remember again, probably not in the moment, but looking back on it being like, in predominantly white spaces, even on the soccer field.

And I think some of that comes from being mixed also not necessarily being able to understand at such a young age that you can fully identify with both groups.

And it's okay to feel.

It's okay to feel like maybe you're not enough, but, you know, it's okay to explore those spaces as well.

And I do think I wish that I was encouraged to do that a bit more.

There were spaces where sometimes it happened, but then, you know, in today's day and age, if I was seeking out a soccer team, I would be looking for a racially diverse soccer team.

Because the way I view the world, and I want them to understand it so that when anything happens, they can be there to support us.

We can support each other.

There's that community feeling as opposed to not knowing who to turn to.

So faced microaggressions at a interpersonal level, playing on the soccer field from my own teammates, from opposing teams, from adults of other teams as well.

And I think I just remembered this isn't a normal anger or frustration that you feel when your team is down a few points in a game, right?

This is frustration and anger that you can.

The ball can go out of bounds, you go pick it up to throw it back in, and you hear someone make a comment and use a word they should not be using.

And I just have to continue playing my game because who's.

Who's gonna tell them off?

Who's gonna change things?

Who's gonna stop this game?

The only thing would be I get taken off and sidelined and probably talk to about, you know, save the drama for afterwards.

So I think about some of the interpersonal upbringing situations that I had.

And, you know, I mentioned going into a predominantly white university and even feeling like, you know, am I enough here?

Is there enough space, you know, to be able to be navigating this?

And how do I connect more with my identities, especially as that hasn't been something that was necessarily fostered for me throughout my life.

The microaggressions, I think for sure, just added more logs to the fire.

And I don't think I had an outlet yet.

So it was just something that was, like, quietly burning within me, and I didn't know what to do with it.

And I think that I was so academically focused because that was.

That was the thing.

Like my mom coming to the United States.

She said, you are going to be making sure that you make it through all of your schooling with straight A's.

It's not.

We don't get B's in this household.

That was the main focus.

And while that was important, I think it's, you know, given me a lot of skills that I have today.

I do think that there should have been a little bit more room for, you know, navigating my racial identity, especially as a mixed individual.

And I want to speak for my siblings, but I. I know.

I know they have reflected on this a bit, too, and I wish we even talked about it a bit more as well.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

So.

So not having that outlet, not having those places to really explore what were some of the interventions or what was some of the.

It could be a person experience, a thing that helped you or supported you, and being open, not just open to it.

Being able to start processing those particular aspects of your lived identity, your experience.

Like, what were some of the things.

Because, as you said, like, I didn't really have an outlet.

So I was just thinking about, you know, in terms of, like, it's part of.

In a different way, but it's part of some aspects of my own story to experience a lot of, like, anti black, anti poor messaging and not having an outlet to process it and some.

In some ways, internalizing some of the negative messaging I was hearing.

But for me, for example, it was one professor, many folks.

But one that kind of comes to mind is this one professor I had who broke down redlining to me.

I talked about running track in high school, and I would notice running away from where I grew up.

The landscape would start to change and the conditions would be a little bit more.

I got in question in quotation marks in some ways, but then in other ways, like, the resources were very different.

I also noticed how racialized that was, but didn't really know how to, you know, talk about it.

Really mad about it in a lot of ways.

But for me, like, in this.

I'm saying this just as an example for the question I'm asking, but, like, for me, that was one point of intervention.

Like, wait a minute.

Oh, folks are saying that y' all are poor because you're lazy.

But I'm seeing in my lived experience something totally different.

Like, I'm seeing folks working several jobs and still trying to navigate things.

And I'm seeing racism and different.

This professor supported me in realizing, well, the ways our neighborhoods are designed.

It's connected to history and policy and all these things.

And so it started to chip away at some of that internalization and in some ways, just some wonderings, like, what do you mean?

The folks are, like, this dissonance that I was experiencing, but I couldn't necessarily explain.

Like, what do you mean?

You telling us I'm late?

Some of the hardest working people I know, like, sometimes I don't even see some y', all because y' all are working so hard.

So wait, that's not it.

So what is it?

And that kind of provided me some with.

With some beginnings of some answers to go deeper.

So I'm saying all that to say, like, what for you, in terms of, like, not having that outlet, like, what were some of the.

The things.

And for me, it was education.

You know, it was.

That was sort of a start of it in some ways.

But, yeah, for you, what were some.

Some people.

Some things, experiences even, that started to lead you in this direction.

I don't really have outlet for it.

Even when you talked about, like, you know, who's gonna.

Who's gonna speak up for me at this soccer game?

As a matter of fact, if I was to do something, I would be sidelined as the person who experienced the harm.

I would be punished for speaking up for myself.

And, like, all the things that go into that.

What are some things that moved you as you talk about this fire that helped to continue to add logs and that sort of thing?

It's, you know, it's such a great question, right?

Because I do think that it's.

There's different pieces of the puzzle that came together and really kind of opened my eyes to all the inequities, which also, you know, shining a light back on our education system, you know, that should have been things that we were taught throughout our education.

And I think there were blatant holes that I didn't get.

And so I think a lot of my learning maybe happened later on.

And even beyond that, it was pushed because there were individuals, like you're saying, that were helpful in opening my eyes to these inequities, giving words to them.

Right.

And really showcasing that, yeah, there's something that can be different.

The world can be different.

It can look different.

So a couple things, I mean, I would say kind of keeping on where I'm at with the adolescence and kind of talking about that right now.

I think about a group of friends who.

One individual in particular who is a mixed individual still.

One of my best friends to this day.

Her name is Megan.

She's a mixed individual, but I think she very heavily was able to accept and leaned into her blackness very early in her Life.

And I think that having her as a best friend since the second grade, I've been able to really learn from her.

Lean on her.

Yeah.

And still best friends to this day.

To this day, she's so great.

But I was able to lean on her and talk about again, thinking about, even when you don't have the specific language, navigating, not feeling like I'm included in spaces or as a mixed individual, and not feeling like I'm black enough to be in a specific space.

And Megan would say, no, I'm here with you.

You're good.

And we would go into a space and enjoy ourselves.

And I think that aspect of having that one person who was really helpful in saying, you're enough, and you're enough.

Right.

But she would say, no, come with me to this.

Like, you're meant to be in this space.

This is a space created for you too, and let's go do it.

Um, and I think that just helped me break down the internalized oppression that, you know, you named a little bit, a little bit ago.

But so I think that is a big piece for me.

I don't attribute anything in college to helping me unpack any of my racial identity or even my queerness.

I really struggle with my college experience, actually.

And I think my sister and I have actually talked about this where unfortunately, we were, because of, you know, economic situation, we were definitely pushed to go to a school that could one support you in any way?

So financially, that was always great.

But also a state school school to then have that financial support.

And then the state schools that we were looking at were not HBCUs.

And I do wish that, you know, my sister and I had that conversation or, you know, there was an opportunity for us to discuss that.

But even at our high school, there were no black counselors who could really point us in that direction and say very blatantly, have you thought about this?

Or worked with our parents to think about it as well?

So I wouldn't attribute anything there.

But what I will say is kind of getting into my work with within higher ed, there's a trans woman, a black trans woman, who I think about constantly when I think about the ongoings of the world.

And her name is Monroe.

And she showed me so much, so much.

I mean, she showed me about being authentic in who you are pushing back against power when you knew something was wrong and people were just kind of accepting it.

You know, when you're in, like, a large meeting and people are just kind of rolling with the punches and not saying oh, that was blatantly the wrong language to use.

Or have we thought about who we're centering in the conversation?

Monroe would always raise her hand and name it.

And I think she also really knew how to center communities as a whole as well.

Just think that the work that she did on an individual level and across that university was so important.

And again, because of the inequities that lie and exist within institutions, you know, her time there didn't last long because, of course, you know, when someone's going to be making a ripple and raising their hand and saying, you know, what's going on here?

They're going to be, you know, put on the outskirts and very much not offered positions to support more or step up in different ways.

And to this day, I still think about some of the experiences we had together on working groups.

We were doing pro bono work that was equity work that should have been deeply, heavily paid.

And we were doing it out of the kindness of our hearts because we cared about the black and brown students at a predominantly white institution and knowing that we had to show up for them because who.

Who else was going to, if we were going to just kind of say, no, you can just take this class with whoever, and curriculum doesn't really matter, and the approach doesn't really matter.

So.

So, yeah, I mean, I think when I think about that in general, of course, there's the upbringing, my family and things like that.

But I think about Megan and what she did for me in the friendship space and kind of breaking down that internalized oppression.

And I think about Monroe in everything I do and still to this day, and how I show up and how I can push back against hierarchy.

I think about the ways in which she did it first.

And of course, it's a black trans woman leading that way.

Of course.

Of course.

Of course it is.

Oh, goodness.

Of course.

And so shout out to both of them and thank you for naming the names and bringing them into the space.

It's incredible.

You mentioned isolation earlier, and one of the things I was thinking when you shared that first story is like, wow, to be able to still have a friend from that long ago and to still be in touch is a very beautiful thing.

It's truly special.

Yeah, it is.

It is truly special.

It is truly special.

And similarly, to see what it's like and see some examples of that authenticity that you're talking about speaking truth to power, I think about how you said, you know, who's going to speak up for me on the soccer field?

And then you all being in that position to speak up and at the same time, acknowledging the labor, too, is like, yeah, this is stuff that should have been paid, it should have been institutionalized, and even the cost of that, that speaking up.

And we know this happens regularly within organizations, and we're often trying to combat it and wake people up to the impacts of that.

So, yeah, thank you for bringing them in to our conversation.

I loved, again, how you were talking about logs and different experiences being another log that added to the fire.

One of the things that I've seen in some of your reflections, you talked about learning Spanish and the impact that that had on your justice origin story as well.

Yeah, absolutely.

This is one of the pieces of my story that I look back on fondly, and I can say that I'm very grateful of how this shaped my life in general, and I'm still constantly reflecting on it today and how I can give back now.

So, basically, when I think about Spanish in general, I think about the fact that because it was always kind of told to us in our household that you get A's, you kind of do the most you can in school to really advance and make sure that your college application eventually looks as great as possible, as holistic as possible.

So it's definitely pushed towards learning in a language.

And for me, in my school system, that started in middle school, so picked up Spanish in middle school and started taking classes in that, and you could take it through about sophomore year of high school, and then you could drop it if you wanted to.

And I'm the youngest of three.

I have an older brother and I have a middle sister between my brother and I.

And we know when my brother was in high school school, the school was about 70% white, and he's six years older than me.

By the time I was in high school, the school was about 43% Spanish speakers.

So folks from Latin America, Central America, and specifically El Salvador.

What we were seeing firsthand, without having the terminology to navigate it and understand it, was an influx of immigrants into Northern Virginia, which is where I'm from, specifically the community that I'm from as well, which is the richest county in the United States.

Loudoun county is the richest county.

That's where I grew up.

But my experience was not in one of those rich pockets of the county.

It was in a neighborhood that did see a lot of immigrants come in.

And, you know, I didn't think anything of it until I got to high school and could see the drastic shift in demographics across our student body from when my Brother was in school to my sister, to then me being in high school.

And I thought to myself, you know, this shift, what's happening across the us I'm not looking at that, but I do think it'll be important to start really, you know, learning Spanish on a deeper level, understanding it, try and be active in my local community as it's shifting and changing.

And so I did, I continued Spanish beyond the requirements that you needed in school.

I remember being the only non native speaker in my AP Spanish class and really thinking about how, you know, the teacher she was, she did a lot of one on one work with me just to make sure that I was not falling behind, which, you know, now looking back and thinking about my work in education, I think about how much that really was for her to do all of that work.

So I'm very grateful for her pouring into me as someone who didn't want to give up, even though I was definitely way, way behind the class.

But yeah, I mean, I stuck with it because I knew that it would be something that would be important to know in my adult life.

And not only that, of course I loved it.

I loved learning about the Spanish language and understanding a little bit more about the cultural nuances of different countries across Central America.

And what I think is very interesting about all of this is no one explained that the reason there was an influx of immigrants coming into Northern Virginia is because of a civil war happening in El Salvador.

You know, of course, peers my age wouldn't explain it necessarily right.

But then also, you know, it wasn't being talked about, it wasn't discussed in any of the communities I was in or the school at large.

And so I, you know, I just didn't have the terminology as a whole, but I remember, you know, I'm so glad I picked up on it.

I'm so glad I continued understanding Spanish and kind of learning about it.

I went to college and studied it in college and when I graduated and had no idea what I was doing with my life, I ended up actually moving to Spain to further deepen my knowledge of the language and really understanding of the experiences.

And now I feel, you know, I look back on my community and it still remains to be very much a Spanish speaking community.

And now I feel that it's really important to talk about our story, to talk about the story of, you know, where I come from, specifically noting that it's in the richest county in the US and noting and kind of seeing how people are either pouring back into it or the concerns I have over, you know, the current situation and where we are today of, you know, a new administration coming in and the impacts on that community as a whole.

So that is one of the logs that was added to my social justice way.

I would say I'm very grateful of how the demographics of my city just shifted completely and really impacted my worldview.

And eventually, you know, what I ended up studying and how I see the world today and how I go back and interact with my community as well.

I try and stay up to date on what the needs are in the community, how I can support specifically people from racialized backgrounds within that community.

I don't want them to be left behind.

I want them to have the same opportunities.

I think that that is so something that just drives me on a day to day basis.

Yeah.

And I'm reminded of why storytelling is so important because I appreciate you naming like, you know, no, nobody told me that we were seeing an increase in the change in our demographics.

There's.

There's actually a civil war happening.

Like, nobody told me that, you know.

And so the other side of one question for me was, so you didn't hear that piece of context, but were there messaging is that you were hearing for folks trying to explain the changes or did you, to whatever degree you did or didn't hear, like, how were folks making meaning of it without that context?

Yeah, you know, I have to think about this one a little bit.

I think, I think when people don't have the understanding and don't care to get the understanding and a lot of, I mean, that's how misinformation is born.

Right.

And foster stereotypes, it fosters negative energy toward those communities which can be incredibly harmful and long lasting.

So what I can definitely say is from my perspective, it was not explained enough and definitely not to students per se.

You know, maybe there were more, let's hope there were more resources given to the teachers in the high school to kind of be able to navigate not only connecting with students, but also their families around any sensitive issues that are happening and really trying to understand how do we bring this community in and not push them away.

But I don't remember any conversation of it happening.

Okay.

You know, I do, I do want to name that.

I think when, when situations happen in general that impact massive communities.

I think about.

I was in high school during Hurricane Katrina and there was someone who was displaced and was a black male who ended up a black male and a black and his sister ended up coming to our high school.

And they pulled me out of ironically My Spanish class to meet him and say, sarah, we want to make sure that he's connected with someone here at, you know, our high school, and just make sure that he has someone to lean on.

And I look back on that in conflicted ways.

You know, some.

A part of me.

A part of me is like, okay, you pulled a black girl out of class to tell her another black man is in the school, which was interesting.

But I also think about what it meant to him.

I mean, he was multiple grades above me, and he would still stop and talk to me in the hallway after he integrated a bit more.

Right.

So he integrated a bit more, had a group of friends who would still stop and talk to me in the hallway, came up to me at football games, would want to engage.

And I felt that connection that I think a lot of black people just feel being in the same space with each other.

So while I somewhat struggle with the school's approach to it, I also know that it had a positive impact.

You know, I could have used a little bit of context prior to that, but, you know, that the.

The impact was.

Was strong overall.

And at the end of the day, I think that is what matters.

Yeah, I can hear the conflict in there and in the story.

Like, I look at this a couple different ways now and then.

Also when you describe, though, that impact, though, is like, you know, what that meant to him.

It's like, yeah, you know what?

For someone who had just experienced some tremendous traumatic even event, like lots of upheaval, that was something that was a source of support.

You were part of that.

You were a big part of that, you know, so, yeah, I appreciate you sharing that story.

Thank you for doing that.

And you also talked about how studying abroad played a role, too.

So I'm seeing all the different themes here as you're adding these different logs on there.

And so you talked about studying abroad, too, and how that also added to your social justice origin story as well.

Yes, yes.

Yeah.

So let's talk more about this social justice fire.

So one of the things that I think about with my college experience, you know, I don't think I knew it at the time, but I wasn't.

I struggle looking back on.

I would do things differently.

I would probably have tried to go somewhere else, all things considered.

But one thing I look back on positively, because I think it's influenced my life in a lot of different ways, was my opportunity to study abroad.

And I say, you know, opportunity, because it wasn't just like, I decided to study abroad.

It was an opportunity that I had, that I was very privileged to have.

Um, and of course, you know, I went to Spain to be able to again, better my understanding of the language and just kind of learn a bit more about Spanish culture.

But I remember before even deciding that I wanted to go to Spain, I mean, there were all these other really exciting, shorter study abroad opportunities that you could go do.

And I remember thinking, you know, yeah, sure, of course I want to go to Malta.

That sounds amazing.

It sounds like it's going to be very warm.

It's going to be in the summertime, so it's really probably going to be more fun than schoolwork.

But I remember again being, you know, talked to by my mom after learning about learning more about study abroad experience through my brother's study abroad experience, that they're not all created the same.

You have to look at how much you're paying in the credits and making sure everything makes sense.

And I should also name that, you know, we, as my siblings and I, we didn't know we were first generation because again, that terminology wasn't something that was really talked about quite a bit when, you know, we were applying to college or even in college.

I was, well after college, before I kind of even understood that I was a first generation college student.

But I name that because I think that there's so many missing pieces of the puzzle.

Information that's just not given to a lot of people and individuals.

And so when I think about it in the study abroad sense, I think, okay, my mom, you know, understood more about what study abroad is for my brother and now she's going to teach that to me and make sure that everything transfers back to, to my schooling to make sure it makes sense and is financially sustainable.

So I was told, no, you're absolutely not going to Malta.

That does not make sense for what you're studying or what you are planning to do.

And even financially, you should go to Spain because you're studying Spanish.

All of this will transfer back X, Y and Z.

What stuck with me about all of that is how so much of the study abroad experience is just really, really, really focuses on the finances of everything, right?

I think I something I say day in and day out, as capitalism runs this world.

And you can see it very clearly in the industry of study abroad, if you have piles and piles of money, generational wealth, anything like that, your opportunity to be able to study abroad and do an experience that you really want to, if you want to spend that summer six weeks in Malta and probably spend time on the beach and the pools more so than in a classroom.

Yes, you may have that opportunity.

More so when you have more money in your pockets, you're able to think freely about credits that won't transfer back.

And it doesn't really matter because you're having an immersive experience.

Whereas everything that I took in my study abroad experience was very calculated.

We wanted to make sure it transferred back to my degree and that it wouldn't put me behind and cause an extra semester of college, which again, is more money.

So, you know, I think about that experience quite a bit because not only did it stick with me then and impact where I ended up traveling to, and of course had a great experience.

I actually look back on it as my favorite aspect of college was studying abroad.

But, you know, I think it really shifted what I wanted my career focus and my goals to be, which is making study abroad more accessible for black and brown individuals like us.

And I think even now, I think I never knew what I wanted to be at a young age.

I was never that kid dressing up as a doctor and saying, I want to be a doctor.

I don't even have pictures of me doing any of that.

But what I can say is, very quickly after my study abroad experience, I thought to myself, this is what I need to do.

I need to make sure that I'm in some realm of, you know, traveling folks abroad that allows me to think about the barriers to doing that and how I can work to break those down and shift this to be a more accessible opportunity.

As a whole, travel people make sure they're getting the exposure that advances them in their.

Their personal life, the way they view the world, but also their professional life too.

And I'm so glad to see that.

You know, I've been able to live that in my truth, and maybe not on a traditional college campus, but I feel like I have a fantastic opportunity to actually do that on a much bigger scale right now.

And that is kind of what drives me on a day in, day out basis when I am struggling with the nuances and the frustrations that come up in every single organization.

But I think about the blessing that I have the opportunity to now do something that I felt was incredibly necessary when I needed it the most and didn't have it.

Um, and I get to hopefully create programs where I'm traveling black and brown people, historically excluded groups, and making sure that they have the exposure to the world and the access that a lot of other people with a lot of money get the opportunity to do.

I appreciate you naming that.

And as I was, I was just thinking about that, just the inequity that exists.

It's like as you were telling your story, I'm just like, who gets to dream and who gets to imagine and how as you say, like capitalism and that financial burden and barrier, like students who can't afford to plan or participate in things based off of what sort of, you know, intrinsic, you know, personal benefits am I going to get out of it or having to instead focus on how does this come back down to timing and how is it connected to my studies and, and you know, even you talking about like, you know, also not wanting it to, to take another semester because that's then more money, you know, and so how inequity is built into that, that process.

So it's like, yeah, like who gets to dream?

Like some folks get to dream, oh yeah, sure, I'll spend the summer there and it'll be great and I'll grow personally and all of that.

And other folks are like, not even at the place where you can have those sorts of thoughts, not free to have those sorts of thoughts because it's like we're concerned about the dollars in the sense around it and how is it going to further us.

And so that, yeah, you, you did, you named the inequity that exists there.

And I also appreciate though, I mean what you said too, I'm able to do some things for folks now that you know that you needed to at that time.

And I know you travel quite a lot, right?

You.

Yeah, I'm seeing as you're describing your story like all these, these connections that are being made to how you show up now.

And that was going to actually be my next question is, you know, how have all of these experiences contributed to how you show up now?

Being that person that, you know, you needed in a sense.

But yeah, how does, how does all that influence how you show up now?

You get to do things that you.

Yeah.

You want to do.

Absolutely, absolutely.

So right now, I mean, can go in so many different directions with this, but I'll start with the opportunity that I have to lead the work I'm leading.

So I get to lead global leadership development programs for individuals being right out of college or some still in college actually, and then also for early career professionals and mid career professionals as well.

So we have just different fellowships as a whole.

And the beautiful opportunity for that is I get to take in equitable and inclusive lens and put on every single thing that we do.

And for the first time I feel like In.

In my career, I also have the agency to do that.

I have the opportunity to make the decisions and explain them.

Of course.

Right nature in the sense of, you know, working alongside my team and not saying this is how we're going to do it and end of story.

But I think that it is an opportunity to really look at the practices and the procedures of what goes into global leadership programs, or even who we try and market the programs to, who we're bringing into the fold and how we can think about doing things differently.

Because, you know, the world looks completely different from one of the programs that I run that started over 40 years ago.

And so we should make room for how the world has shifted, how it's changed, how, you know, demographics look different, and how we can bring people in quite a bit more.

Um, so I have a very prestigious fellowship that I'm leading that I get to make my own mark on, and I'm choosing to make it in the way of looking at it from the angle of what I've always wanted to do in my career, really trying to make it more accessible to historically excluded groups and really try and shift the needle in that sense.

And given, again, the fact that this week alone, you know, some of the shifting tides that we're seeing and some of the conversations that are happening on a national level, given the political climate, it's needed now more than ever.

And I wholeheartedly struggle.

Right.

But I think that even within that struggle, I stay committed and guided by my North Star of knowing that this has always been something that's really been a drive in me or that fire that's been burning in me from those experiences of really understanding my first, my racialized identity through that microaggression, experiencing that throughout soccer, seeing it through interpersonal struggles and at an institutional level with my college, and just saying, you know, no, I.

This is where I can make my mark and.

And really try and do more and do better.

And, you know, what I will say with that is it doesn't come without cost.

It does not come without cost.

And I think that it also doesn't come alone, you know, and I'll get into the costs maybe a little later on, but one thing I would say about the not doing it alone is.

I think it's really important to say it.

I'm.

I get to live out something that I thought I wanted to do many, many years ago.

I'm.

I'm living that dream now.

But I also think that it wouldn't be possible without my amazing team that they're working with me and I see myself as a part of that team, not just, you know, someone who's giving them the orders and walking away.

I see it with the benefit of the many coaches and facilitators that I work with who are also equity strategists.

I try and bring in folks who are aware of equity frameworks to come and support some of the work that I'm trying to lead here.

And just the thought partnership of the people who came before me and tried to do the work that I'm doing.

Still existing in a predominantly white space, we're leaning on one another for community.

I think that that's really important.

That isolationism is.

We're constantly combating that in so many different ways.

And I think that it's even true for me as I show up for my day to day work and try and shift the needle and create leaders who also can care about things and understand that, yes, there's a lot of global challenges, but community is incredibly important.

It fosters empathy.

And I think that that is incredibly needed as we think about solving the world's greatest challenges on a global scale.

Yeah, leadership matters.

You all.

Leadership matters.

That's going back to when I hear you talk about, because I think you use, also use the language like I'm choosing to, you know, design my work in this way, you know, so with the influence that you have.

So just going back to that, you know, hey, we can transcend the status quo we've been given to imagine and design more equitable and humanizing systems using our influence where we are.

And yeah, as you're speaking, I know that of you and I'm feeling it and I know the folks that are working with you feel that too.

I have a two part question, but I'm gonna do the first part first.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

It's a noticing something that you experienced with the work that you do now where you were just reminded or it occurred to you, it's like, you know what?

Yeah, this is why I do this every day.

Like this is why, or today was a good day to come to work kind of thing.

Like, this is exactly why I do this stuff.

So an experience, a noticing, you know, a memory or something that caused you to feel that within yourself, that gave you that reminder.

Yeah, I love this question and I think I was asked something similar to this recently and of course I'm blanking on my response, but I think that, you know, it's because it's been so many small moments over and over.

If that Makes sense.

You know, things that.

Which I think is a beautiful thing and it's almost needed, they add up.

It's not necessarily one thing, but it's like, you know, those pebbles, they add up and they, you know.

Yeah, that's great.

Yeah, absolutely.

Absolutely.

So I think it's multiple things.

Given the work I do leading leadership development programs, I get the opportunity to meet so many amazing people from all over who are having impact in so many different ways and multi layered impact.

There's people who are working in the national government where they're working at the White House, for example, but there's also people in state and local government doing really important and great work there.

There's people in philanthropy trying to get funds out to make sure that historically excluded groups are making economic advancements.

So I meet just incredible, incredible people.

But the reason I bring that up is because so much of these moments that keep me rooted in the work I'm doing and ensure that I stay true to my North Star and keep me in this work is because of their stories, because of some of the work that they've been able to do through connecting with the fellowship program and things like that.

So I'm trying to tease out one here for you, but I think that a piece that comes to mind for me is really, back in September, I was able to host a group of people who traveled through one of my fellowship programs over 10 years ago now.

And one woman in that group, who is an alum, she pulled me aside.

I don't want to give too many characteristics away.

You don't want to.

Without revealing.

And it can also be a feeling too, you know, so there's several rays to approach it, you know.

Absolutely.

No, but she pulled me aside and she named how much she appreciated what I was doing and the representation of me being in the role I'm in and what it could mean to so many other people out there of just even having my face leading this work.

And yeah, I really appreciated her because it was at a time where I was conducting this massive audit for the program, really trying to shift things to make it more inclusive, but also work with a community of alumni who were pretty frustrated at the lack of communications, just some of the wrongs that had happened to them previously.

And she pulled me aside and said, I can see you're shifting the tide.

I can see that the work that you're doing is, is moving the needle and, and that you're not only changing how things are done internally with this program, but you're also shifting the mindset of some of the alumni as they, you know, are trying to give their feedback and talk about what should and can happen and what needs to happen.

And she's seeing a tone shift take place.

And so there was that piece, and there was also just the piece of representation.

She said, but I want to also, you know, let's.

Let's get that work part out of the way, but let's also talk about us, right?

Let's talk about the representation that you bring into this role.

The fact that you are sitting in an organization that you can say that you're openly, you know, biracial, you are a queer individual that you can, you know, step up and lead this work in an industry that is incredibly, incredibly white and also elitist.

Yeah.

Is incredibly important.

You know, I.

My background not being in.

Not having a PhD, right.

Not having, you know, I have a psychology, Spanish and international education and curriculum masters.

So so much of this is very interesting that I get to do this work.

And she was just saying how important it is that I'm here and how much she wants to support me.

Is the last piece there.

Of course, it can always be good to say, you've done such great work.

This is important, all that, but it's also really important to follow it up with, okay, and I'm here, right?

And also I'm here not saying it how every other member of the alumni community may say it, but I'm here for you because I can imagine you're facing a lot of, you know, scrutiny or a lot of eyes on you, a lot of questions.

Anything that I can navigate with you, I'm happy to just be.

Be an ear, even if you just need to vent.

And I've thought about that conversation weekly since it happened last September and taken her up on it at least once to just vent it all out and knowing that it helps me continue going because she talked also about the impact that she's had after taking part in this program and some of the ripple effect that's happened in her community.

So to be able to see firsthand the impact that some of the work I'm doing can have on historically excluded groups and then also think about it from the aspect of they're also really proud of me and want to see me continue is so important to my day to day and also just helps fuel my fire in a very positive way, keep me going, keep me aligned and.

And just keep me kind of ignoring what I can ignore and what I should ignore and.

And know that the work I'm doing does have impact as a whole.

So, yeah, I think about her quite a bit with that pivotal moment, and I'm very grateful to say that I think there's other, other smaller instances of it coming up and, and so much of it, though, as I reflect on it, is focused on human to human interaction.

It's not the completion of a massive audit that's gotten done and it changed the script on how we're doing a program.

It's not.

The fact that we, you know, are brought in more funding, for example, is a hundred percent.

The fact that we are changing people's lives and how they're looking at things.

And for me, it's always going to be about every single, you know, person who's been marginalized, excluded, and how I can try and uplift their story, pour into them, and ensure that they're part of the conversation, that they have a seat at the table.

That's, that's what I care about.

And I, I feel in my small pocket of the world, I'm trying, trying to achieve that change.

And then the impact too, of that, how powerful it is too, to get that.

It's like, all right, there's this recognition.

Yes, you're supporting us in our own journey, but you know what, I want to actually let you know that I see what you're doing and I have your back as well.

I support you as well.

It's powerful.

It's powerful stuff, too.

Something that just sort of reminded you, this is why I do this.

And I appreciate you sharing.

Like, yeah, you know, it's their stories.

That's what keeps me, you know, going.

And then the other part of that question is, what keeps you up at night?

It could be figuratively or literally about the, the work that you do.

It could be, you know, a need, or it could be like a burning question or here's what we, you know.

But there's a variety of different ways that you can answer that however you wish.

But, like, what kind of keeps you up at night when it comes to the work that you do?

Yeah, that's tough.

I mean, it's interesting with the work I do being so centered on humans and just their livelihood, their stories, their work.

I think that it is always going to be something that's happening in the world.

Like, people are always going to pour into leadership development because they're going to pour into humans.

So I think there's always going to be money behind supporting some of this work.

But I do worry about the lack of an equitable approach to leading this work think that many people can get lost in.

Well, you know, what is this opportunity connected to funding wise?

And how can we bring that in and lock that down before even thinking about some of the ramifications of the partners that they have and what it means as a whole?

So I think that there's just a deeper need to really not a deeper need to break down some of the elitism.

Right.

That exists within my industry.

You know, saying that these are really prestigious programs for X, Y and z reason, and then only letting in a very specific demographic of people.

I mean, that showcases to the world who you see has value and who you see does not.

And that impact is vast.

I mean, that's vast.

It is.

It's telling a whole story of people who are also watching you.

Anyone who, you know, interacts with your organization outside of your industry, also seeing that a bit and noting that as well.

So I constantly think about the fact that equity has to be brought in and I worry about the fact that it's not being done enough as a big piece of the puzz.

And I think the other piece of it that I would also couple with this equity framework that I worry about too is the shift in just global trends right now.

You know, there was so much focus when I first started in the role I was in at the organization I'm at right now.

There was a lot of focus on how can we make things more inclusive, how can we make things equitable.

And now with again, some shifting tides that we're seeing where, you know, there's lots of places where people are discussing how do we change our language that we're using, how do we make shifts like that?

And I.

That keeps me up at night because I struggle with that reality that people are going to be doing that.

And I also know that I'm not going to take that on because I've done way too much work for free, specifically equity work for free.

And I'm just not going to do it for the organization at large.

But I would say that there's definitely that struggle as a whole.

And I think what specifically keeps me up at night about that is it's not just taking place in the United States.

When I started at the organization a couple years ago, there was a lot of focus on Europeans learning from the United States when it comes to equity and inclusion.

And now I worry.

I'm not even now worried about it.

I'm seeing it.

Yeah.

Seeing it play out.

Exactly.

There's a shift across the board, across the US with equity and Inclusion work.

But I also think that there's a shift happening in Europe and that they draw so much inspiration from what we're doing here and vice versa, of course.

But I think that, you know, some of that's going to be dropped and there's not going to be a framework happening across Europe and there's still a lot of work to be done there.

There's still so much acknowledgement that has to happen and real reckoning too, as we discuss, you know, in my field, of course, it's foreign policy and kind of looking at that as a whole.

And yeah, I, I think it just definitely keeps me up at night to not to not have equity frameworks on leadership development programs in general and those be pipelines into the next leaders of the industry I'm in.

So if I almost feel at times, if I'm not working fast enough, yeah, I'm not doing enough, which it is its own thing to unpack and talk about, you know, how that stuck with me throughout my life.

But I would definitely think that that's something that I'm always thinking about with my role and my industry is just the lack of equity framework and the trends that are happening across the globe and how that's going to impact, impact these programs and these future leaders as well.

Now, also, as a part of this project, we talk about the influence in our journey and our relationships with our understanding, our current understandings of our relationship with power and privilege and oppression.

And with that, there's a qu.

The question I have here for you.

One question is considering your experiences within your identities that have been marginalized in society.

In what ways has internalized oppression impacted your journey?

And then also what's your relationship with it now?

And just to be clear, when I say marginalized identity, just for listeners out there, I know you know what I'm talking about.

But for listeners out there who may not be familiar, it's like it's not to say that your identities in and of themselves, that if something is wrong, but for me, using that word in particular is an acknowledgement that something has happened and something is happening that can create different outcomes, you know, for folks based on our identities in that.

So considering your lived experiences.

Yeah.

Within your identities, use experience of marginalization.

What has internalized oppression?

In what ways has it impacted your journey?

And then what's your relationship with it Now?

Now, thank you for this question.

And I think I have a lot of work to do with this too.

And I'm very happy to admit that in a space like this Because I do see so much of this work as a constant practice and something that we should always be leaning into as a whole.

So, I mean, internalized depression has been all throughout my life, which is one of the reasons I really think of my social justice story as, and my social justice origin story as a fire that's been burning.

Because I think that in so many ways, if I'm able to identify and understand how different pieces of my life has shown up and, and impacted me on a level, a certain level, that's the first step to addressing it and trying to navigate liberating myself from a lot of this.

So, yeah, on all different levels, I think there's something there.

But I think that one thing I would name in general when I think about internalized oppression is just the concept of white supremacy characteristics as a whole.

With white supremacy characteristics, I specifically think about the reality that there's so many different pieces of the puzzle that if we're not tapped into it on a day to day basis and even thinking about how it shows up in the smallest ways than, you know, it's, it's ever present because it's in the air we're breathing, right?

It's everything, it's everything that makes up society.

But I can see it so much in the work that I do and in how I try and show up in the world in general.

So I think there's a lot of work that I need to do with combating the sense of urgency and just kind of seeing how that manifests in my life and both professionally, but also personally, professionally speaking, I think there's this level of always trying to do more and more and kind of meet those deadlines, get everything done on time.

And you know, when, when we had first started this call, you had mentioned that, you know, I, I do things like prioritize everyone else, including organizations, over myself.

And that can be seen through the sense of urgency of really kind of feeling like you have to get everything done by a specific, that specific deadline that specific dictated and when other people aren't held to that.

And so how do I just kind of tell myself it's okay to take a little bit more space for me today and just communicate that you need to, you know, push something back a bit.

And I think that kind of goes hand in hand with the perfectionism as well.

I've named a couple of times that I feel like the industry I'm in is a very elitist industry as a whole.

So coming in without that PhD or even the typical background that oftentimes almost gets brought up in these DEI trainings, right?

We're talking about, you know, who gets the opportunity, who doesn't.

I'm existing among a lot of them right now.

And so I think it's constantly battling for very, very specific reasons and.

And multiple reasons.

And I'm also doing fine.

I'm doing just fine in the work I'm doing.

And that's why those stories, like the one that happened where someone said, I see everything that you're doing and I'm here to support you, means so much to me, because I know that that's not reflected day in and day out all the time or appreciated and not saying I should be celebrated all the time.

But I think it is tough when, you know, so much work happens and we're not getting that recognition as a whole, specifically when you are a black woman coming in to clean up a mess that you did not create.

So that definitely sits with me quite a bit.

And so I think there's.

That as a whole, is the.

The perfectionism, the sense of urgency, the elitism.

And I think that how I also internalize oppression on more of, like, a personal scale, outside of just, like, the workplace, is also, you know, not giving myself enough grace and space to just be enough in what I am and who I am.

Understanding that I was socialized, right?

We were all socialized.

We're all a product of socialization.

And that we have to push back against that and push back against the stereotypes and the things that we believe that because we were told this about ourselves through so many different institutions in our lives.

And for me, what that looks like is, you know, it manifests with me when I think about even, like, my physical appearance.

I think about the frustration and the agony of having a difficult relationship even with my hair.

You know, I think that that's such an interesting thing to bring up because I think black women are so beautifully proud of their hair.

And I want so badly to be one of those black women who's so proud of my hair, and I struggle with it.

And, you know, some of the things that I've said to myself and even how I show up has been so awful when, you know, the reality is, of course I'm not going to have exactly the same type hair as another black woman, because I'm also mixed.

And there's gonna be some nuance there.

And that's okay.

You don't have to take it hard on yourself and say things that just aren't helpful or push us forward.

But I think it's also the aspect of also just feeling enough in general.

I think as a mixed individual, you feel this, you feel this constant tug and pull of am I enough to be in this space?

Am I welcome in this space?

Are my thoughts and opinions included?

You know, should I be speaking up or should I just stay silent?

What is, what is the best course of action here for me?

And I still think I. I navigate that quite a bit in the different areas I'm in, something I constantly will reflect on.

But I think something that does ground me is the ways in which I have pushed back against that throughout my life.

Going back to my comment around Megan and how she supported me with that without even knowing necessarily, you know, but yeah, yeah, lots of different ways it shows up, but always trying to find the avenues to push through because it's a hard world out there.

And I think that we constantly get our things reinforced in the media.

And I'm honestly anticipating a bit more of that as we kind of step forward.

And so really trying to have my antidotes and really trying to understand what it does look like for me to fight back against oppression in my day to day life and specifically have internalized as well.

Thank you, thank you, thank you for modeling, you know, that, that authenticity that you talked about from the very beginning.

Yeah, Just really appreciating that.

Because as you're sharing, and I've talked about this before, but it's our conversation where we're talking to one another right now.

But it is also very much also for the folks who are out there listening and you.

Yeah, just by being yourself, just by sharing your own lived experiences, affirm others who, who are experiencing similar things.

There's a big part of this where it's like, I believe storytelling can support those folks who have had some experiences or trying to make meaning of it.

Like you talked about earlier, it's like, all right, you know, you were experiencing some things, didn't necessarily have an outlet for it.

But I feel like the storytelling, your storytelling, can support folks who may be in that space as well, but be able to put some words to their feelings and their experiences that perhaps they might not have gotten to, you know, before.

So thank you so much for doing that.

And, you know, we, we experience that marginalization, but then we also have some privileges too.

What would you say your relationship is considering your experiences within your privileged identities?

And what ways have those messages of internalized superiority impacted your journey?

And then what's your relationship with it now?

And I'm using the word superiority, but What I often tell, even talking with students is like, you know, sometimes the language, the word superiority isn't blatantly used, but it's like, what are those noticings?

What are those things that, those messages you receive for certain aspects of your identity that communicate to us, you know, that the world is designed for us in ways that it's not for other people.

And how has, similar to that marginalization, if there aren't any sorts of interventions, we can then also take in some of those messages, internalize some of those messages of, you know, oh, things are going to go a certain way because we have these identities in that.

So, yeah, what's your experience with that?

Like, how has challenging, I guess, messages of internalized superiority influenced your journey and what's your relationship with it now?

I mean, I think because of the education background and specifically my work in higher education, I led a lot of reflection exercises where we're talking about identities that we hold that are, you know, more marginalized, push to the outside, disenfranchised.

Right.

Or just historically excluded.

And in that same vein, I always talk about the reality that we also have some privileged identities that we can point to and understand, you know, how the world may be looking, may look different for us because of those privileged identities versus, you know, someone who may hold a disenfranchised identity.

So through leading that work, I have really done a lot of reflection around the way that I have these specific experiences or just identities I live with every single day that is internalized, like superiority.

And how I can kind of either navigate that or use it right, I think is important too.

So for me, I think I've really tried to accept as much as I can in the spaces where I have more privilege, socialized identities, and then.

And think about it in the frame of allyship.

So what I try and understand is first, where am I holding privilege in my life and how can I use that privilege to support other groups, stand with them, solidarity, anything like that, anything in the realm of allyship that can really support their journey to either getting more economic mobility or just what have you, the next, the next opportunity, what it looks like.

But as a whole, I mean, this is a time in my life where I do feel like I'm getting paid adequately for the work that I am doing.

And, and I'm so lucky that it's work that also aligns very well with the work I want to see be done in the world, the work I lead, the background I have, and just kind of really thinking about some of the challenges that people have.

So I've mentioned this a few times, but I, I lead leadership development programs, but it has me working with people from specifically, let's say, for example, the Eastern Partnership countries in Eastern Europe.

And there's some countries over there that are experiencing a lot of anti democratic backsliding, for example, and a lot of foreign influence in elections and just the future of, you know, the landscape of those countries in general.

And we still try and bring them into our leadership programs, but it takes a lot.

And some of them get questioned or they get told, you're not allowed to participate, participate in this.

You need to be standing up for your country.

So the fact that, you know, holding citizenship from two countries that are very powerful passports as well is just something I don't take lightly.

And it's something I think I have struggled with in my past because I didn't know what I could do with this other than use it to my benefit, if that makes sense because a passport is so personal.

But I think through these programs I'm leading, I can also think about what are ways to still engage people who are getting told no, you have to stay behind and really support our communities or we're just not allowing males out of the country right now.

Groups who don't have a seat at the table don't have a voice at the table.

And I do that also.

I think I focus a lot on my locus of control to just make sure I'm seeing the shift and change happen.

And so much of that is even just doing it in the workplace and thinking about that.

I do a lot of championing staff at younger levels and lower levels who just get seen as not high enough to really do impactful changes and shifts.

And it's just simply not true.

So I try and always just act as an ally wherever possible and, and know that it's always evolving.

It's always evolving.

Leadership matters and recognizing that I do work with folks who are seeing because of their positions and things not seen as if what I was getting from that too also, you know, don't have a voice or can't provide input that.

But it's like, no, that's not true.

And so you work to bring about some equity there and challenge that narrative.

So no, yeah, leadership absolutely does matter.

And I'm glad it's you doing the work that you're doing.

I'm glad you're doing the work that you're doing and the position that you're in with the influence that you have, with the care that you bring to the work that you do.

I'm glad it's you who were some people or experiences.

And I know, again, I know you mentioned some of your friends here, but if you want to talk more in detail about them, you can.

But just people or experiences that contributed to shaping how you show up in this work.

Yeah.

I mean, I could list so many people because I think that it's so important to always give flowers to the folks who have really shown you and guided you the way.

Right.

And been there as well.

Even if they're not necessarily showing you something new, but just they're there supporting you.

So, of course, I'm sitting here in my apartment with my partner, and I can think about all the different books that we have that has been so helpful to lean on resources like bell hooks or Dr. Ibamoret Kendi, and just really kind of thinking through how those have also been very fruitful and helpful in also explaining this in a way that we can use it in the work and educate others.

So it's not just people questioning why I'm saying the things I'm doing.

And do I really know that or have you?

Right.

So, of course it's gotta give a shout out to.

To everyone who's doing a lot of that.

That work.

It's very, very helpful as a educator to continue to be able to showcase some of that in the work I'm doing in the classroom.

And so I try and bring that in as much as possible.

But I think there's also a couple other people I'd like to shout out here and just kind of name one person that comes to mind almost immediately is a.

A person who was first a facilitator, then a very quick friend, and, you know, someone I still bring on to support me in some facilitation work, but then also works with me on just coaching and kind of thinking about combating the ways in which I either perpetuate white supremacy culture characteristics or I'm not giving myself enough grace.

So she really supports me in that.

And her name is Kristin CC Battle or CC Battle.

She's an equity strategist, and she also owns a company called the Frolic Culture.

And I have to give Frolic Culture a shout out here because, oh, my goodness, it is so helpful.

It is so, so, so helpful, because Frolic Culture is all about rest as resistance and joy as resistance and frolicking as resistance.

And as I step into this next administration and the fact that, you know, with my organization, I'm gonna have to work alongside them.

I think that I constantly think about some of the.

The.

The work that she's doing through frolic culture and the way she's.

She's making a space for.

For others to really think about rest as resistance.

And what I appreciate about Cici is that she shows up authentically in that it's not just what she teaches and, you know, schedule, but it's also.

She takes a sabatical in the summer and in the winter, and she is completely offline, but she's still posting so that others see her frolicking.

They see her out dancing in Nigeria.

Right?

They see her out making friends and finding community with the locals across Nigeria.

They see her doing these things and it inspires us all.

And it specifically, I think she does it.

She shares that with the world because I think she's seeing how many people are just giving so much of their lives to their job, to capitalism, to elitism, racism.

And I think she's honestly just like actively pushing against it in so many ways.

Shapes and forms.

And I think the one piece I will finish with CeCe is I really, really, really appreciate how she will also facilitate and support alongside me, but she will always bring me into work where she has the opportunity to say who is supporting the supporters.

Yes.

Who.

Yes, right.

Who is caring for us when we are pouring so much of our emotional energy, intelligence.

Some days I come home from work and I can't even speak to my partner.

I'm so tired from just all the conversation, like, conversations I have that I'm just like, I need an hour to just not say anything or the whole evening to not say anything, anything.

But, you know, I think through cece's work, she really understands.

She's gone past understanding equity right now.

She's practicing it and making space for people that look like you.

And I. I think it's so incredibly important, and I think that.

I don't know, I just think it's going to be needed now more than ever in so many different ways.

I'm really grateful that someone's doing that because we're always making the spaces for others, but she's making it for us.

And it's just.

I'm just really, really grateful for that.

That's so important.

And there's some alignment, there's some values alignment there, too, because I've found myself often asking that question and working with organizations too, like, who helps the helpers, who cares for the caretakers.

And so, yeah, hearing you share that, that piece is very affirming and refreshing.

And I hope that Folks who are out there listening are also using this bit of storytelling to check in with yourselves about where you are, because you're right, folks give so much time to work and institutions and things.

And then I'll also add, just in the context of the way how some institutions respond, you know, in times of either crisis or even thinking about the pandemic or what have you.

And it's like not, not.

Not responding in ways that reciprocate that love for a whole lot of us, too.

And so also.

So there's so many things I appreciated about your storytelling there.

And then also just I'm reminded of.

And I'm appreciating the affirmation.

So she takes these sabbaticals, but it's still posting to show folks that, you know, and in that, I feel like it's a reminder, like, you know, yeah, but we are also deserving of that.

That.

That play that frolic, you know, inviting joy into our lives.

And so, yeah, just very appreciative of you sharing that, too.

Thank you.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

And to that end, she literally will post it and say, y' all deserve to see this too.

Exactly what she's doing.

She's trying to share it with the world.

And I'm deeply appreciative of it.

That's right.

So what would you say to.

Or about them, cc, about the others you made?

Like, what would you say to her about them in terms of, you know, gratitude, thank you.

Appreciation, or just speaking to the impact?

Yeah, yeah.

And there's one other person I want to name here, but I think another piece that's important to name and showcase here in.

In a different lens than some of the stuff I've talked about, but outside of, you know, my work that I'm doing, everything like that I care deeply about food, all things food, cooking, sharing my food with others, being around other people who really enjoy food, and really understanding food as a form of joy, and then also thinking about it from the lens of food as a form of black resistance.

Right.

Black resilience and then black joy.

So while not a personal friend necessarily, but I think someone that I would shout out is just something.

Someone who's, like, completely opened my eyes to different.

Different framing of looking at the food industry is Chef Kwame Onwachi.

He owns the restaurant up in New York City, Tatiana.

And then he just opened one in Washington, D.C. which I have not had the pleasure of going to yet.

But what I really appreciate about Kwame is a couple years ago, five years ago, actually, he started A food and wine festival literally partnered with Food and Wine to bring a black food and wine festival to Middleburg, Virginia at the Salamander Resort, which is a black owned five star resort in Virginia.

And I'm just lucky that I happen to live near enough that we have had the opportunity to be able to attend for the past three years.

And why I'm bringing this story in is, you know, Kwame is very intentional, Kwame and his team, because I know it's not Kwame doing it alone, but Kwame and his team are very intentional about who they're bringing into this event and who the event is for.

So he always says it's an event for us, by us.

So it's for black people or black people who are caring about food.

Black chefs who also network and kind of figure out next steps or opportunities there.

He has a three day food and wine festival that he puts on for all of us and we get to go and enjoy and just feel so comfortable and safe in our blackness, which I think is just incredibly necessary and important in today's day and age.

But after the first year of him doing it, what I thought was really interesting is you saw a lot of people in the comments when it was posted around social media.

I should also name, it's the.

The family reunion is what it's called.

Okay, all right.

Yeah.

So when he's posting about the family reunion, you know, you always see people in the comments saying, dang, the price tag on this is so high.

Like, I can't afford this, I can't do this.

What I really appreciate about Kwame is for me, after doing something like the audit I did last year when I was hearing all the feedback, it starts to really grind on you after a while and you think, well, I have to take that into account and I really have to shift things.

But Kwame stood true in what he needed to do.

I should also name, he works alongside Sheila Johnson, who's the owner of Salamander Resorts down in, in Middleburg and some other locations across the US and internationally as well.

But the reason I bring that up is, you know, they know it's not cheap to be in this business and do everything that they're doing.

I mean, everything you, you go and you, you stay there and food and drinks, everything's paid for.

Right.

But it's also about the reframe that black food does not have to be cheap.

Black food, it should not come with a price tag.

That's just that $1 sign and that's it.

Black Food can also be a luxurious experience at a five star resort.

And it can be an event that's by us and for us, it doesn't have to always be something that we're looking at.

You know, how can we make this something cheaper?

Because that's a stereotype around black food in general.

So what I really appreciate about that is just his reframe of it and still standing true in the fact that this is an event where we're really trying to lift up the black food experience.

We're also trying to give these chefs more exposure.

You see people who are, are coming in and, and working some of these stations as chefs, Right.

But they also bring in some of their own apprentices and people who've worked on like their lines.

Right.

So they're also uplifting their communities in that way too.

So I just, I really appreciate the fact that yes, of course, with everything we're doing with equity work, we're trying to make things accessible, but some things are still accessible and do not need to fall into that stereotype.

It has.

So I, I think a lot about that and I'm just so glad that he has never faltered in the work that he's doing in this because I can see the ripple effect it's having on his career and his impact, but also on the lives of even some of those people I met in year one who then went to culinary school and come back and continuously volunteer event to then meet new people and make it to new heights.

So I just have to shout out Kwame and just say that I really appreciate that.

I have the privilege of noting that shifting stereotypes is another really deeply important aspect of this work.

Shifting stereotypes and the importance of storytelling and reframing.

Because even in that, I'm also thinking about, and I also had the word intention in my head too, when you were talking about putting it all together, I'm like, yeah, this sounds very intentional in good ways.

But I also, in terms of like storytelling and narrative and all that, I'm considering, like, and you know, you're inviting people out here, you're, you're trying to pay them.

There's a cost for the materials and the ingredients and all this stuff.

And you want to make sure that they are also paid and compensated equitably for their time.

A shifting of the narrative of like, you know, it has to be that black folks are inherently deserving of being underpaid for their skills, their talent.

Also in the context of just recognizing how much our culture is copied and emulated and taken from and folks then say, sell it back to us, and then, you know, at that price.

But then when we're the ones doing it and trying to create it, then all of a sudden it's like, oh, you know, no.

So I. I'm.

I'm appreciating the reframe as you share, too, because this also, I. I see, too.

That's also like, economic mobility and security for the.

The.

The black folks who are then preparing the stuff, you know, who have.

That in itself is its own industry and has its own story about inequity and trying to make it and all that.

And so, yeah, I appreciate that story.

I appreciate you sharing that.

For sure.

That is a powerful reframe.

For sure.

We are deserving of being paid equitably, appropriately for the talent, for the skills, for the time that we put into creating this art.

And I think food and cooking we've had, but I think, yeah, food.

Cooking is art.

It's science.

It's so many things.

It's culture.

Yeah.

We deserve to get paid equitably for that in ways that it's like everybody want to take it, but don't want.

Don't want to pay us for it.

You know, exactly what we owe.

But then.

But then we see it somewhere else.

It might be called something different, selling it back to us in a way at a more expensive price than, you know, than what we might even set in some cases.

I appreciate you spending some time on that.

I just thought the power of storytelling, you said reframing.

I just thought that was so powerful.

So, yeah, thank you for sharing that, for sure.

Of course.

But, yeah, for gratitude.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Like, what would you say to them or about them?

Just as a say thanks or just an acknowledgment to.

About their impact.

You could speak about them individually or just broadly thinking about the collective impact.

Like, what would you say to them or about them?

Yeah, well, I'll start with Kwame is fresh in my mind.

I mean, yeah, there's a lot I would say, Kwame.

I mean, I feel like I'm just really deeply appreciative that you stand on business, that you did not falter.

And I think that started with your memoir, but then also just staying true to who you are and being resilient, despite the fact that you were trying to do black luxury food down in a area in D.C. where they weren't ready for it yet, but you still came back to D.C. so I. I think the resilience has a lot.

And I think that your Representation is just.

Just incredibly impactful on so many different levels.

And I'm just very grateful for.

For the opportunity to have shared space with you.

So that to Chef Kwame and to my girl Cece.

Oh, my goodness.

Oh, my goodness.

There's so much.

There's so, so, so much I could say to cece, and I think she knows it in ways, because I. I do tell her this, but, you know, I think the additional piece I would say outside of everything I appreciate about how she shows up authentically is the ability for her to really try to find ways to show up for the people who are just taking on a brunt of the work in equity spaces.

Her focus on making sure that, you know, black and brown people leading equity work have a space to decompress, to exist, and to just come together in community is incredibly important.

I think it is.

It's been so impactful in many different levels for me, and I don't think that I would be in this role still without her.

And she's not even someone who's a full time staff member with me.

She is someone who has come to me externally.

She's given me a lot of energy to keep going.

And I think that that is not something I take for granted at all.

Because I want to say in this work, I want to continue doing this, but it is increasingly harder.

There's constantly new boulders to push up the mountain.

But I'm so glad that every single time she just says, yeah, I'm gonna get behind that boulder with you, and I'll push you, push, push, push alongside you.

And she truly, truly does.

So I don't know, you know, how this ended up happening, how our paths crossed, but I do know that my life is better with her in it, and that as long as she is willing to be with me doing this work and trying to guide me and also trying to push back against the ways in which internalized oppression show up for me.

I'm so deeply grateful for her.

And we need more CC battles in the world.

So what do you hope listeners will learn or take away from your story?

And then what actions would you encourage them to do?

Take?

I think about everything I've shared here, and I think specifically how it's manifested for me in many different ways.

I was always taught to constantly get A's in school.

I show up and I still do everything at work, and I take it on.

I take it on.

I take it on.

One thing that I'm trying to commit to myself this year, and I'm proud of how it's gone over the past few weeks.

But I'm also, you know, a message I would want to share out to all the women, all the people of color trying to do equity work and push this work forward is really just to prioritize yourself.

We are in this work because we care deeply about other people, because we believe in a different world.

We believe in a liberated world, and we believe that we are part of that change.

And absolutely we are part of that change.

And to everyone out there, to really think about how you're leading equity work and really try and be inspired to shift it it right, really be inspired about what I just shared around CC and think about how you can, you know, see yourself as a carer and see yourself as the person who needs that care too.

And sometimes that comes in the form of, you know, saying, I'm just gonna lay down and turn off everything and just stop.

I'm just going to stop.

I'm just going to rest.

But, you know, the long.

The long and the short of it is, yes, we are super powerful in everything that we've done, everything that we're doing.

I think so much of that is because we're connected to our ancestors.

But we also have to remember that we need to rest, that we need to prioritize ourself, and that we need to make sure that we're not losing ourself in this work, too.

It's something I'm always working on and just something that I hope that you all take away from the different experiences I've had with my social justice fire, the different things that community means to me as a whole, and really just the reality that this, this work is a practice.

And right now, for me, I think the biggest piece of practice is also understanding how to prioritize myself as well.

Now I have these three finish the statement prompts.

I'll just say, finish the statement and it's really just a snapshot where you are right now.

If I ask you this six months from now, your answer could change, but it's just really where you are today.

So.

And you can say as little or as much as you want about them, but finish the statement.

True social justice is possible when.

True social justice is possible when those with privileged identities, many privileged identities, understand that the unknown, we should not be fearful of the unknown.

True social justice is possible when us with privileged identities, those with the most privileged identities, understand that fear of the unknown is not going to continuously stop us.

We need to make sure that we're liberating Ourself.

And I think that starts with ensuring that we're no longer afraid of what we don't understand and that we believe in that connection, the community, and really fighting back against the fear.

I think the fear fosters inequities often.

Right.

I think it runs through it all.

And I think that in the end of the day, we have to stop being scared of the unknown.

We have to be willing to talk to one another and connect and really foster that empathy in order to push us forward.

Thank you.

My approach to social justice is shaped by.

My approach to social justice is shaped by all the ways in which oppression has impacted me at various levels throughout my life, all the ways in which I have either pushed back against it, unlearned some of the things I thought to be true about myself, about my people, about anything like that, and really stepped into the authenticity of who I am today and used all my.

All the impacts that happened earlier in life, all the incidents that happen that fueled my social justice fire as a whole, and used that to keep me centered in my North Star.

Really trying to lead the work that I have always wanted to lead, and making study abroad experiences or just travel abroad experiences more accessible for black and brown people as well.

Understanding and sharing our social justice origin stories is important because understanding our social.

Justice origin stories is important because storytelling is the bread and butter of human connection.

As simple as that.

Everything I do, bringing together fellows in the classroom, bringing together my alumni, it's all around how can we continue to tell stories, to learn from one another, make the world a smaller place, and learn from one another to make the world a better place?

So from my side of it, storytelling is everything.

And it's something that I will always try and champion, no matter what, because I think it does bring the world together.

Okay.

So for future generations listening to this years from now, because it is my honest hope that this storytelling, these recordings, this project, outlast us.

What is it, you know, Is there any wisdom you'd like to pass on to them?

What would you want them to know?

Oh, I think, number one, you are enough is important.

Specifically for anyone struggling with holding a mixed identity, mixed racial identity.

Right.

I think you are enough.

You don't have to feel like you're not enough for one of your races more than the other.

I just truly hope that that's something that is really fostered a lot more in today's day and age.

And I hope that there's been some significant progress because of all the work that's happening here that you're inspired to continue to see that the world can look different, and it should look different.

Their liberation is possible.

It is.

We just got to keep at it.

We just got to keep at it.

If you could name your own social justice origin story, what would you name it?

Like, the conversation we had today.

If you could put a title on it, what would you call it?

Oh, my goodness, that one's so hard.

And I only just recently started doing this, so there's the.

You saw the form.

I actually might start putting it in there for people to think about.

But there's personal journeys, organizational histories, educational segments.

But there's also this community Voices piece for people who are listening.

I'm eventually.

I'm wanting to hear how they're engaging with the storytelling and what they're learning.

And if folks want to come on and talk about it, they can do that.

But I was also just, like, one day, like, oh, wouldn't it be a further, like, living out of that value?

A closer to that.

If we would then ask people then to.

Because you're already sharing your story as opposed to someone else doing it, but, like, also.

Yeah.

What would you call it?

And then have that reflected in the title or whatever this episode ends up being when it comes up.

Yeah, that's smart.

That's smart.

Something around Unexpected and Journey is coming up to me just because I feel like I.

There's so many different twists that I brought into this conversation that I, you know, really, some of it I don't think about all the time, but has impacted me on a deep scale and my social justice work that I'm doing.

But I also think that there's this reality that through my life, while some things have been very constant, you always work hard, you're always respectful, things like that.

I never knew 100% what I wanted to do.

And so I think that Unexpected Journey has brought me a lot of opportunities, a lot of privilege, and I'm so grateful that I didn't have everything completely mapped out, because I think it allowed me.

Allowed space to learn and unlearn and shift and grow.

Yeah.

So something like An Unexpected Journey into Equity.

I don't know.

Something like that.

That's a whole journey.

Okay.

Your titles are much better than mine.

Okay.

I'm glad we.

And we're workshopping it, too, so it'll be something with that.

It'll have some.

It'll have Unexpected Journey in there.

I know you've mentioned, like, Social Justice Fire a few times.

Yeah.

So I had only recently begun to do this, but I think I'm going to try to keep putting it into practice.

Like, you know, what would y' all say?

What would you call it after everything?

Would you just say, what would you call it if you could, you know.

So thank you.

Thank you so much for, for engaging in that piece.

So it'll be somewhere in the title when it comes out.

But yeah, thank you for spending time with us, agreeing to come on and sharing your story with the listeners.

Yeah, just thank you so much.

I really appreciate it.

No, and thank you for doing this.

I know this is something that's near and dear to your heart, but I think you're also making so much space for others to share their story and I think that's incredibly important, like we've talked about.

So just really appreciate the time spent with you today and happy to support in any other way.

All right, Sarah Jones, thank you for listening.

If you enjoyed this episode, please leave a review.

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Video episodes are also available on the project website socialjusticeoriginstories.com I also want this community that we're building here to be be interactive.

Not just a one way conversation between myself, the storytellers and you, but then also I'd really love to hear about how folks are interacting with the stories, what you're learning, what they're bringing up for you.

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I'm really wanting this to be conversational, so look out for more entries from me on that.

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Social Justice Origin Stories is edited, hosted and produced by me, Rolando Tompkins Jones.

Many thanks to our storyteller this week and the many storytellers who have contributed to this project.

And thank you for joining me this week.

Take care.