In this episode of Beyond the Surface, Kristi shares her story of growing up in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, revealing how traditional gender roles, the belief in eternal family togetherness, and distinct doctrines shaped her upbringing. Navigating the pressures surrounding faith, sexuality, and identity, Kristi discusses her internal conflict over gay marriage, the mental health impact of church teachings, and the emotional toll of keeping secrets. She candidly reflects on her journey out of Mormonism, the role of therapy in embracing her bisexuality, and the delicate task of maintaining family bonds amid a faith transition. Kristi’s experiences highlight the importance of curiosity, grace, and authenticity when forging one’s own path.

Who Is Kristi?

Kristi Hyde is an eldest daughter, an Aries, and a natural redhead with a deep love for reading romance novels and writing poetry. Born and raised in The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints (Mormon Church), Kristi spent her early life in Utah before relocating to Arizona in 2019 with her partner.

A former banking professional, Kristi is now a devoted stay-at-home mum to her two daughters. Her passion for writing has culminated in her debut poetry collection, Self Deconstructing: Mormon Faith Journey Poetry, which beautifully captures her journey of faith deconstruction and personal growth.

Connect With Us

• Connect with Kristi over on Instagram.
• You can purchase Self Deconstructing: Mormon Faith Journey Poetry over on Amazon.

• You can find out more about Sam on her website - www.anchoredcounsellingservices.com.au
• To connect with Sam on Instagram - @anchoredcounsellingservices
• Want to contact with Sam about the podcast or therapy? Use this contact form.

00:18 - Sam (Host)

I would like to begin by acknowledging the traditional custodians of the land on which I live and work the Gundagara land and people. I pay my respects to their elders past, present and emerging and extend that respect to all Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander people. I also want to acknowledge the traditional custodians of the lands on which you, our listeners, are joining us from today. I recognise the deep connection that First Nations people have to this land, their enduring culture and their commitment to the preservation and care for their country. This land was never ceded and it always was, and always will be, aboriginal land.

00:58

Hey there and welcome to Beyond the Surface, the podcast where we explore the stories of people who have survived religious trauma, left high control or cult communities and are deconstructing their faith. I'm your host, sam, and each week I'll talk with individuals who have taken the brave step to start shifting their beliefs that might have once controlled and defined their lives. Join us as we dig into their experiences, the challenges they've faced and the insights they've gained. Whether you're on a similar journey or you're just curious about these powerful stories, you're in the right place. This is Beyond the Surface. Welcome, christy. Thanks for joining me.

01:42 - Kristi (Guest)

Thanks for having me, Sam. I'm so excited to be here.

01:45 - Sam (Host)

I'm so excited we had to quickly hit record because otherwise we were just going to keep chatting and you know, an hour was going to go past and we were like, oh shit, we've not hit record Before we get into it. I mean, perhaps tell the listeners where in the world are you?

02:01 - Kristi (Guest)

I am currently in Arizona in the United States of America and it is nighttime.

02:07 - Sam (Host)

My kids are in bed and we're doing a podcast lovely, lovely, um, and I'm assuming Friday night, so like kids being in the in bed, like end of the week, that's like a peak time, that's like the best time of the week, I think it is a peak time we're having peak time over here the best time of the week.

02:26 - Kristi (Guest)

I think it is a peak time. We're having peak time over here, the best time of the week. I'm ready for the weekend. Yeah, it's gonna be great, amazing.

02:31 - Sam (Host)

Well, I like to start these episodes with a very broad, very vague question, which is where does your story start?

02:41 - Kristi (Guest)

Mine starts like, basically from birth. I would say um, because my parents were and are still part of, um, the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, aka the LDS Church, aka the Mormon Church, um, and so I was like born into the church basically, um, so from a very young age.

03:07 - Sam (Host)

That's where my religious journey starts yeah, for those who don't know and I am conscious that, like I think by the time this episode will have come out, perhaps there has been one other Mormon or former Mormon on the podcast and we do have, surprisingly, quite a large Mormon church and culture here in Australia. For the record, I was the person who, as like a very like zealous born-again Christian teen and young adult, would love when the Mormons would knock on my door and I'd be like, yeah, come on in, like I'm gonna like try and convert you while you try and convert me, and it's just like this whole vibe where it was just like not happening, nothing was being achieved by that. Um, but I'm wondering whether, like, in terms of growing up in that, what did that look like, in terms of what beliefs were being instilled in you?

04:09 - Kristi (Guest)

so, um, mormons, like we are Christian. The church is centered around the belief in Jesus Christ and that he lived and died for our sins and the atonement. Um, we differ in that we believe the trinity. The trinity is three separate beings, so god, the father, is separate from jesus christ, and then there's the holy ghost or holy spirit, and that's a separate entity as well. Um, but growing up, you learn, like, obviously, that you learn about God and the Godhead and Jesus and the Holy Ghost, and you learn right from wrong.

04:51

Um, you, our church, is very much, uh, a gender, a gendered religion, um, and follows the gender binary.

05:01

So, um, from a young age I grew up with, I want to say, traditional Mormon family where my mother was a stay-at-home mom and my father worked outside of the home and so, like, in Mormonism, the gender roles are very much like the husband is there to preside and provide for the family, family and then, like, the nurturing and child rearing falls on the woman.

05:30

05:40

Um, things have changed, some for the better, some for the like, the worst, I would say, um, and so like, it's very much like I, it was instilled in me from like a young age that, like your goal in life is to, like you know, follow the teachings of Jesus Christ in the church and get married and have kids and like live the gospel. And then, if you do everything that you know the church has asked, and if you like, repent of your sins and like do all that stuff, um, we have a teaching that we get to be with our families forever in the in um and so like, as long as you are on that path, like you get rewarded by having your loved ones with you for eternity and also dwelling with god and jesus which I I'm wondering, like as a child, like, was that presented as this lovely thing, or was that presented as if you don't follow the rules or if you step outside of that, then you lose all of that and you will have like eternal separation no-transcript.

07:34

Just do good and it you'll be with your mom and dad and then you get into your like teen years and it's more like at least for me, from like my impression, I felt more like this, almost like heaviness, like a mantle of like I have to be good, um, and I think part of that is just like you're going through so much at that time.

07:59

You're starting to go through like puberty and you're starting to like really develop, like who am I and what do I want to do with my life, and like all that stuff. So, um, the consequences weighed heavier on me, I guess I would say, um, and in our religion we don't get baptized until age eight. Um, they, we believe that age eight is the age of accountability. Um, and so at age eight is when most kids who like grow up in the church or like are converted, before eight get baptized. Um, so, yeah, so there's not really a huge focus on like eternal consequence, at least up until age eight, and then it's kind of like it starts getting sprinkled in there, but I would say it's more so, like in the pre-teen, teen, adult years. Yeah, that's a focus yeah, I'm.

08:59 - Sam (Host)

I'm curious what you remember around when you were eight and you know taking like at that age of accountability, because my therapist brain goes off and goes like you're eight, like there's nothing about being eight, that is like has the ability to make you know, lifelong decisions, let alone eternal decisions, and so I'm curious what it was like for you and how you remember that age for yourself.

09:32 - Kristi (Guest)

so it's like the first rite of passage really in like Mormonism, and so it's like, honestly, eight-year-old me was like really excited because, like all your friends are who are also at church are like getting baptized and you're being invited to like watch them get baptized. And then you have your day, um, and it's it's mostly a day where you talk about how you're committing, like you're, you're covenanting with god to like choose the right. That's basically how they like it's explained and and you get this cool um like if they call it the gift of the holy ghost, where, um the male priesthood leaders, um, who hold like the right authority, can place their hands on your head and like give you the gift of the Holy Ghost, which is basically kind of like the gift of discernment. Like it's just a blessing that the Holy Spirit will speak to your heart and help you make right decisions, and so that is all like exciting.

10:42

And I just remember, I remember being nervous because I didn't want to like mess anything up, like you know, embarrass myself, like yeah, um, but I just it was like you're all in white and you just feel so special and like my dad was the one who baptized me and like he was also the one who, like, gave me the blessing for the holy ghost, and so it was like a very much like a family focused, like family centered thing, um. But now, as a 33 year old, um, I look back on that and I think, like I like I really didn't know what I was like promising Cause, basically you get baptized and you're saying, okay, like I'm taking my first like step, like my first saving ordinance, basically like my first step back on this path to heaven, and so like, um, yeah, so I don't necessarily believe that I like really truly could have grasped the promise that I was like making yeah, how do you look back on your childhood, growing up in the Mormon church?

11:53 - Sam (Host)

now as an adult?

11:55 - Kristi (Guest)

um I that I see a lot of good in in it, for sure. Um I, there are things, especially since I have my own children now, that I um like I had good parents, but there are things that I definitely wish they did differently. Um, I feel like a lot of my upbringing was kind of done by the church, if that makes sense. It was like yeah, it was just like okay, these are the expectations. Like you go to church every Sunday, you get baptized. You don't date till you're 16.

12:40

And then like, even then, like there's like group settings instead of like one-on-one, and like then, when you're 18, like even then, like there's like group settings instead of like one on one. And like then, when you're 18, like you might start single dating because you're supposed to get married and like all this stuff. And so, like, looking back on my childhood, I have a lot of like very happy memories and very like fun memories and like I I love my parents dearly and I think that they did the best they could with like the information they had. Um, but 33 year old me gets frustrated a little bit because I look at like my little toddler I have a three, almost four year old and I'm like I can't fathom, like in four years, you being being able to decide to like commit to a life of being part of, like this religion, like you know.

13:29 - Sam (Host)

So, anyway, it's just like it's frustrating a little bit, but at the same time, I have to like remind myself to give my parents grace because they, like, as a parent, you just do what you know and and like you just want your kids to be happy, and the church makes my parents happy for the most part, and so I think that's what they were trying to give us, me and my siblings, growing up yeah, and I I find, when I'm doing these interviews with people, is that, uh, there just is the need for so much nuance, because, like, nothing is ever like all good or all bad, and and I find that, like, even when I speak to people about my own experience, is that, um, they can sometimes be surprised that I'm not like absolutely like slamming them and tearing them to shreds and and all of that sort of thing, and I go go well, actually, like there is so much joy that I got out of that experience.

14:26

It doesn't mean that, uh, there wasn't harm and there wasn't spiritual abuse and all of those other things, uh, but I think one of the things that people need to be able to consider is that, actually, in this space of religious trauma and deconstruction and exploration, is we need nuance.

14:47 - Kristi (Guest)

we can't, we can't stay in that black and white, very binary sort of thinking, otherwise there's no room to move, there's no room for curiosity yeah, and I think I think part of the reason that my view is um is nuanced is I stayed in a nuanced place for like a long time.

15:08

15:57

That will like like what does it matter if they get married? Like it doesn't like invalidate like me getting married like in the temple, like they're still not doing like getting married in the right place, so like it really doesn't matter, you know. So like I started like having this little like dissonance um around that time and then just kind of like well and and around that time, like I was really like, um, I was having like my own, like, sexual awakening, but like, um, not in the way that like was expected. Um, I actually had my first relationship with a girl, like she was my best friend in high school, um, and we had a romantic relationship with.

16:46 - Sam (Host)

You know, physical expression of affection and uh, so I love the way that you put that so delicately put.

16:56 - Kristi (Guest)

I don't.

16:57

I just don't want like I'm trying to delicately put it that way because I actually have carried a lot of like shame around that relationship.

17:06

I had a lot of like internalized like homophobia, and so while I was like processing that relationship and this whole like gay marriage thing was happening and like the church was really against it, I remember specifically one time we were hanging out and I was like I really hope this law passes in California because then we can run away and just get married, but like my and it was like I was living like two separate lives.

17:35

18:22 - Sam (Host)

Yeah, yeah, I justified it in a lot of ways. Yeah, yeah, was it? Uh, cause obviously I'm aware that, like every church is really different, and even every church within the same flavor of you know, christianity is also different, and so were you. Did you grow up being actively taught against anything outside of heterosexuality, or was it just a baseline assumption but not really like preached about, so to speak?

18:48 - Kristi (Guest)

um, it was preached about in, well, actually during because of like the gay marriage like movement, I'll call it in the us um, it was preached about like and they reiterated a lot that god like only wants people married whose biological sex is different. You know, like marriage is between a man and a woman and anything else is basically like a mockery. You know, like, um, so, yeah, and it was also like there there were not any like out lgbtq mormons like I think that that has actually my generation of mormons like kind of started that like movement of like, okay, we're gonna be like mormon and gay. Like I remember when mormon and gay or gay and mormon dot com became like a thing because, like, the church was having to do almost like, not damage control, but like almost like damage control and just be like, okay, like you can be gay, but like you can't act on it at all, like you have to be celibate, like you know, and so there's a lot and a lot of people were asked to just be in mixed orientation marriages where, like, even a gay man would marry like a straight woman or like you know, yeah, yeah it was.

20:16

It wasn't like necessarily. Um, at least not in like my teen years. Do I really remember like it being like talk. They more stressed like marriages between a man and a woman, um, and then I think like it kind of snowballed into like um, where it is now, where it's, it's being LGBTQ or queer or anything like outside of. Like heteronormative is really hard in the church.

20:48 - Sam (Host)

Yeah, and I often find that, like when I've, particularly if I have clients or friends who are either current or ex Mormons, is that like there was? There's often language around I'm not, I'm not gay, I have same sex attraction. Yeah, yeah, right. So like I'm thinking okay, is this just like an here thing or like an Australian thing? But it's what I hear is off, it's trying to separate it from being an identity marker to something that I struggle with or something that I have yeah, same, so, so, yeah, same-sex attraction.

21:30 - Kristi (Guest)

They would never say like gay or LGBTQ. They well, they would, but it's like I don't know how to explain it. They like it's so hard for me because our church it's like supposedly like all are welcome and like all are welcome to come unto Christ and blah blah, but then they have like talks about, you know, same-sex attraction and most recently it's been a lot about this emphasis of like your biological sex at birth, is your gender like, so like there's no gender queer or like trans or non-binary or gender non-conforming, like everything is done by like what your birth certificate says you are yeah, yeah, um, and so like yeah, but it's, it was all about same-sex attraction and I literally thought that I, that I was being deceived by the devil, like sometimes, like I said, I, I felt like I was depressed and like no boys were dating me and I felt like that. I was just like like me and my friend, one day we the.

22:43

The way it all started was we were just like you know what? No, gonna, no one's kissed us yet. Let's just kiss each other and get our first kiss out of the way, and then that like snowballed into, like oh, we actually like are really at least I can't speak for her, but like I'm going to say, we both were mutually very much attracted to each other and very much enjoyed like being physically affectionate with each other. Much attracted to each other and very much enjoyed like being physically affectionate with each other and so like. In my brain it wasn't seen as a good thing. That was like I'm sinning, like every time I kiss her or like think about her or like anything. It's like I'm I'm like committing a sin and it's not just like like it was like a bad sin, you know.

23:26 - Sam (Host)

Yeah, I often, I often hear myself saying like you know, you are taught that there is like no hierarchy of sin but there's absolutely a hierarchy of sin. Like me wanting to like marry a woman or like even kiss a woman, like that's really up there, that's top of the pinnacle, um, and yeah, it's, uh, yeah, it's the such an iron, it's such an irony in that yeah, yeah, and I I remember thinking like, okay, I need to like.

24:00 - Kristi (Guest)

So we I don't even want to say dated, because we never categorized as that, but like she was my girlfriend, we basically dated for like I think like eight or nine months. Like this went on and finally the guilt got to both of us and we both sat down and we're just like we don't want to forfeit eternity with our families, like this is obviously a sin and like we need to like, yeah, double down and go back to like repent and return to like going back to church and stuff. Like not that we ever left. I mean, I was like still sitting in the pews doing everything other than yeah.

24:37 - Sam (Host)

I had a girlfriend and I wasn't supposed to yeah, I'm I'm curious and I and I often throw this question at people and they're like, oh shit, I haven't been asked that for a while, but I'm curious what it was like for you during your teenage years, like starting to wrestle, in whatever way that looked like, with your own sexuality. What sort of impact did that have on your personal relationship with God?

25:04 - Kristi (Guest)

it was hard. Um, I don't so. Even previous to this relationship, I've always struggled with uh like depression and anxiety. Um, and I have. I might get emotional on this, but I this this is like, sorry, I'm laughing, I feel like this is awkward, but no, I'm a therapist.

25:31 - Sam (Host)

I'm going with tears.

25:34 - Kristi (Guest)

So I don't know how to explain this, but I'll just say as simple as I can.

25:38

I have always like viewed myself as like I'm broken, like there's something wrong with me and like I can't peg like an age where that thought like was you know in my head or whatever, but like I I know part of it is from like the whole teaching of like you need the atonement, you need Jesus, like you're, you know, obviously going to make mistakes, you know and and like you need that whole thing.

26:05

But like I almost felt like Jesus died for everybody else, but like I was too, like I was inherently bad and like broken, and so like I didn't see like his grace as being sufficient for me, even though that's like not what the church teaches. And so like going through like even yeah, even previous to like my relationship with my girlfriend, um, that like I guess that just like exasperated, like exacerbated that feeling like I was like, oh, like I'm broken, and I guess one of those things is like I like girls, um, and so like yeah, it was just, yeah, it's just rough, yeah it sounds like it felt like it was another notch on the belt of making you the oh the rule 100 and I think part part of it is.

26:59

I've always like struck, like my anxiety manifests in rage and like there's this whole like contention is of the devil. And so I was like I like must be, I must have like borderline, almost like chose, like so I don't know if in the Mormon church we talk about like the war in heaven and how like God presented the plan and like Jesus was like here I am, send me, and like a third of the hosts of heaven like went, say in you know, and like and are his little angels and like left um and so they don't get to come to earth and have bodies. And I was like maybe I was like on the fence and like the war of heaven, like maybe that's why I was bad, like maybe I almost wanted to go with Lucifer, you know so like and I know that's a horrible, that is a horrible thought like I mean it's a horrible thought.

27:52 - Sam (Host)

Yeah, yeah, of course it's like it's a weighty. It's a weighty, but as well like it's not just it's not just an like a horrible thought it's.

28:02 - Kristi (Guest)

It's a thought that carries a lot of heaviness and weightiness in the way that you move through the world as well yeah so it was almost like yeah, jesus's atonement like isn't for me because of some, like I, you know, I don't remember my, my pre-existence, so like I don't know, I and I would just make up scenarios like that in my head to try to explain why I felt the way I did.

28:25 - Sam (Host)

I think that I mean, as you sort of said, like I think the idea of like the doctrine of original sin and atonement and redemption and all of that sort of thing doesn't like set us up to succeed in that sense. But it sounds like that, coupled with perhaps like a predisposed setting to depression and anxiety, joined together and fused, this like unfathomable thing for you that you've just sort of had to carry every day. That sounds bloody exhausting.

29:02 - Kristi (Guest)

Oh it is and I'm still working through it. I have a friend who does like emotional processing and she was like taking me through like a little session and I was like and my whole life it's been about like anger, Like I've just always felt like a bad person because I'm like explosively angry and like a lot of people are like I don't see you like being that way, because I'm like generally happy and a vibe like normally. But sometimes I get really mad. And my friend was like taking me through this process. She was like. She basically like told me she was like I don't. I don't see this like burden that you're carrying, as like a burden that originated with you. She's like I think't I don't see this like burden that you're carrying, as like a burden that originated with you. She's like I think it's like a generational burden and like you need to be the one that like lets it go so it doesn't like pass on to your kids.

29:55 - Sam (Host)

So I've been trying to like let it go you say that so nonchalantly, um, I mean and I guess hearing that like it's you know perhaps I think anything that we hold in present day never started with us. It started many, many generations ago and just is passed down and this is how it's manifesting in you. But there's also like in terms, in terms of like thinking about your kids. Does that feel like a lot of pressure, to feel like you need to break that cycle?

30:35 - Kristi (Guest)

it? Yeah, it does. Um, and I think part of it comes from, like, growing up in the church, my parents had like a template for which to raise their children. And like, since I I've left the church, I am just making this shit up as I go, like I don't have a template you know.

30:55 - Sam (Host)

Okay, so let's circle back to how did you find yourself out of the church? Because it sounds like you did like the very good, like good mormon girl thing in terms of you got married and you had kids, yes, yeah. And so how did you land out of the church?

31:14 - Kristi (Guest)

so, after the whole like girlfriend thing, I like repented and like went back to being like as perfect of a Mormon as I could be, um, and then in my early 20s well, like age 20, I think, was like when I went on my first date with a boy, um, and it was because, like my, so like in the church, um, young men are expected to like go serve missions around the world, which are the people that knocked on your door and you were, like, I'll convert them.

31:45 - Sam (Host)

Like, um, I tried, I failed miserably but to be fair, they also failed like we were trying. Yeah, it was mutual destruction.

31:55 - Kristi (Guest)

Yeah, it was mutual failure here. Um, so I uh girls could at the time could serve missions at age 21, um, and so I was like not able to serve and I never had like the desire to serve a mission really. So, like I basically was just going to college. Why all my I say all my guy friends? I had like three really close guy friends in high school and they were all on missions, um, and so when they started coming back, one of them actually was like you know what, like let's try to date, and so it was dating boys was interesting, and it was interesting because I had struggled with like physical affection, with like my girlfriend and like had actually like we have what's called the law of chastity, which is basically like no sex outside of marriage, um, and so like I had actually like broken that, had premarital sex already, and then dating guys um, it was really hard for me to like keep my hands to myself and I never went like as far as I did with my like girlfriend, but he was like fresh off a mission and like kind of scared that we were gonna like fuck it up and like have sex.

33:09

So my relationships did not last long. I dated a total of three, well, actually two. Well, so I went dated a guy for like two weeks, went on a what I call my one night stand but it wasn't, it was just like a non-committal makeout session dated a guy for like a month and a half and then, like after we broke up and this was over the span of like two years after we broke up, I met my husband and we were friends for about like a month before he asked me on his on the first date, and then our whole courtship lasted a total of seven months, which, in Mormon language, is not that out of the ordinary. We were 22, um, and so we had our first date in May, got engaged in September, got married in December and I got married in the temple, um, and everything was great. And then and we waited to have kids, which was abnormal, um, because you're really it's really stressed not to put off having children, like for no reason, like should you put off children? Um? But my husband was very much like we're not having kids until, like, I'm out of school and like have a stable job and everything.

34:35

So we were five years into our marriage before we tried, started trying to have kids, yeah, and then it took a year to get pregnant with my first, and I had her in the year that we do not talk about because of the pandemic, um, and that year was honestly the year that kind of like.

35:02

36:18

So it's just like I was like oh, so you'll follow the prophet for these things, but not for, like, the pandemic thing, because you like think it's all malarkey, which like anyway.

36:30 - Sam (Host)

so that, like, the hypocrisy just became very um apparent to me and that started like my downfall I think, or my rising up whatever you want to say yeah, the, the pandemic, uh, the way that the church by and large, irrespective of the flavor of church, uh, the way that the church by and large, irrespective of the flavour of church, the way that the church and pastors, ministers, bishops, leaders responded to the pandemic created an absolutely like, very apparent ripple effect in terms of like.

37:13

It was, um, it was a moment for so many people when they, yeah, they were almost separated from the normalcy of the church and like the, uh, the routine that you get stuck in uh to see what, almost what life would be like a little bit not being so heavily involved in the church and and, yeah, I mean I know for like a significant portion of, like evangelical Christianity in the US, like it, the response that that had towards the pandemic was like, really, uh highlighted the, the hypocrisy and the, just like the uh, the defiance of, like the church knows best sort of mentality, uh, and irrespective of what, uh, not even the government, but irrespective of what, like scientists and health professionals are saying, uh, and so it was a um, like it was the section of the book that you just highlighted everything, because everything highlighted something, yeah, yeah, um, yeah, so like pandemic, coupled with, in mormonism, a woman's like highest, um, like highest aspiration is to become a mom.

38:42 - Kristi (Guest)

Yeah, and I was always taught that like it would be so joyful and like so fulfilling and like so, just like my life culminates to like this moment, um, and I, I love my children, but I do not like being a mom like I? Um really struggled with, like with my first, I struggled with postpartum depression and I think part of that was like the issue.

39:15

But it was just like nothing came easy. I thought I would have like intuition and I thought like our family would just be like immensely blessed, like you know, by God because we brought a child into the world. And so, like this, like the church really like pedestalizes motherhood and like all my expectations of motherhood just like crumbled and since that motherhood identity was tied so closely to like my faith, it really like shook my faith. I'm doing a lot better now but like I still struggle. I I'm currently a stay-at-home mom and part of me like does not want to rush these little like childhood years, but the other part of me is like can you guys like get into full day school so I can like get a part-time job and like do something outside of the home.

40:15

So yeah, so, mother, it was like just the way the world reacted and like the pandemic thing and like the perceived expectations I had and had been taught surrounding motherhood not being met, those two things coupled together like really sent me into like a faith crisis yeah and I, like, lost my footing.

40:37 - Sam (Host)

Yeah, it was like the rug was pulled up from under me yeah, I mean, like my first instinct is to thank you for being honest in that space, because I think for there are so many women out there who, I mean, marriage and motherhood is put on a pedestal. It is your highest and sometimes your only purpose in life. From the church and when that doesn't look like the way that it's supposed to, doesn't look like the way that it's supposed to, uh, there can be so much guilt and and shame around. Yes, you can love your kids, but it doesn't mean that you love every aspect of being a mom and the complexities around even reaching that point and it not looking the way it's supposed was supposed to look, and and so I think I just want to say thank you for normalizing that for other mothers out there, yeah, who are struggling with that, because it's not me, yeah, and I hope that like it becomes more talked about, I think it is, but I really like I really felt blindsided.

41:52 - Kristi (Guest)

I was like mom, why didn't you tell me this was so hard?

41:54 - Sam (Host)

yeah yeah, yeah. So I'm curious what it was like. Obviously, like you were you. You know quick courting, you know long marriage, like yeah, five years is a long period of time before having kids, I think for anybody in any sort of church system. Um, and so what happened to because I know that it's like not just going to magically disappear what happened during that you know, period of time to the wrestling of your sexuality?

42:32 - Kristi (Guest)

43:50

Yeah, um, and my husband I am married to a man um, he already knew about my relationship with, like my girlfriend in high school. Um, we're told that, like sins that you're repented of, you don't have to like tell to your like spouse. But I I this is like something I'll chalk up to like spiritual experience or like intuition or whatever one during our courtship, we were like talking and it was like late into the night and I had this thought of like you should tell him. And so, like I just laid it out on the line and I was like, if you're gonna date me, you need to know that, like I had a relationship with a girl I struggle with, like wanting to have sex all the time, and we got to work hard to like get to the temple. And I remember during our courtship, shortly before, like he proposed, I gave him an ultimatum and I was like I can't do this. Like you either need to put a ring on it or like we need to break up because we're not going to make it to the temple, so anyway.

44:54

So then, and also my parents both knew about my relationship with my girlfriend because I told them about it when I like needed to confess. Okay, because I wanted their support through like the repentance process and like the church discipline side of things and all that stuff. Um, my dad was bishop at the time and and traditionally, like normally, your bishop is the one that helps you like through the repentance process. But I told my dad I didn't want to like go through it with him. So we went, we went up like the chain of command to the stake president, um, and so I repented with a higher, you know, office than my dad. Um, because I just wanted a dad.

45:42

I didn't want like a bishop and a dad rolled into one so my parents knew about it, um, but I think they were surprised that like 15 years later or however long it had been, I was like I like came out. I first came out like to my husband, obviously. I was like told him all about therapy and was like I'm bisexual and he was like, okay, cool, cool. And I was like I think I'm gonna like tell people because I like my thing is is like I've become very like open and vulnerable because like shame and guilt hide in secrecy and like in the dark and so like I don't want to be ashamed of like these, yeah, these parts of myself that the church classified as like bad.

46:33

um, they're just parts of me and like yeah it's okay if like people don't like them, but like what? Like I'm a whole person. I have different parts of myself. So I told my husband I wanted to come out and I texted my family because we live um away from them, we live in a different state. And the response I got was my mom was just like so are you getting a divorce? And um I?

47:03

I laughed because I was just like, like that's the only like of course that's the response yes, exactly, I was just like, oh so, like you just want to make sure that, like my temple marriage is like staying intact, because at this point I hadn't left like the church completely yet. Because after the pandemic we went, we tried to go back to church, like with our daughter and stuff, and we were probably back in church for, I'd say, about a year ish. Like after the pandemic we really tried and I just at some point we just couldn't do it anymore and we stopped and he came with me. He hasn't had as much of a like crisis, I would say.

47:48

My husband classifies himself as like, like he believes in, like the gospel of Jesus Christ, but like he doesn't like all the extra stuff that the church like puts around it. And I'm more of like I don't know what I am, like I, I want to believe in like a higher power and that this life is like, not it, because, like, if this life is it, it's like damn, I got a lot of work I gotta do you know, yeah, yeah, so I just my biggest belief is like, I just like believe I, like I want anyway. Yeah, came out as bisexual.

48:38 - Sam (Host)

Yeah, like that I left the church it's brave to come out whilst in the church though, like that that's. I think saying that's difficult is probably a giant fucking understatement, to be honest.

48:51 - Kristi (Guest)

But I'm, I'm for me. It didn't for me. It wasn't necessarily difficult, because I was already, like, very nuanced at that point and I kind of used it as a barometer of like, like, am I welcome?

49:10 - Sam (Host)

and.

49:10 - Kristi (Guest)

I and I don't know. So, like in the church, in the Mormon church, we have what are called callings and they're like volunteer positions and my calling at the time I came out was to teach the 18 and older women on Sunday and so I teach them lessons. And a month or two after I came out I got released from that calling and I don't know if it was because I'm bisexual or if it was like you know, like just a thing, I'll never know, but that calling was kind of what was holding me in the church because I loved it. I loved, like just you know, the community and like listening to sisters tell their stories and like, yeah, cause we call everyone brother and sister in the church, by the way, so like we were all part of, you know, god's happy family and I loved my calling. But then they released me and I was like I was like this, this is like the end, and I was just like talking to my husband. I was like are you okay if, like, I stop going to church?

50:20 - Sam (Host)

he's like well, if you stop, I'm stopping and I was just like okay so, yeah, yeah, I'm curious how that has impacted on your relationship, as like it being in different faith stages, almost um, I like me and my husband are very we've always been very like independent of each other, like I don't.

50:45 - Kristi (Guest)

I'm very much like, uh, my own person, and he's very much like I almost want to say like he's very much like I almost want to say like he's like indifferent kind of about like spirituality, but he's like I know he has beliefs, but he's just like one of those people that's like I'm not going to stress over this and even like growing up, like he grew up in the church as well and like served a mission, even like going through all of that, like even on his mission he was like I'm not going to stress about all these little rules, like so he's never and I'm like a little perfectionist over here and I'm just like must follow all the rules to the letter, like so anyway, he doesn't have the.

51:29

I wish I could be more like him because he doesn't have like as much guilt and shame around religious stuff as I do. Yeah, but we we talk about church stuff and we like talk about our beliefs and we talk about how we're going to talk to our children about them, and there's just a lot of. I think what's brought me peace throughout all of this is just like when I was in church. There's like this pressure to like I know the church is true and I know the gospel is true and I, like you, have to like get like confirmation from God that this is true. And now I'm just like I don't know like, and living in the unknown is scary for some people, but for me it's been really freeing because I don't like know anymore. It's like I can do whatever I want. It's like freedom a little bit.

52:26 - Sam (Host)

Yeah, I know, for me, the words I don't know used to instill fear and panic, that I needed to work that out. And now I don't know is probably my favorite phrase because, like it just like allows for curiosity and wondering and questioning. And uh, has it always been like that for you? Has that like not knowing always felt good?

52:53 - Kristi (Guest)

no, no, it hasn't, um, especially with the mormon upbringing, like you have to know yeah like you have to have a testimony, you have to know these things like, and they have monthly like testimony meetings where you can bear your testimony in front of the congregation, and a lot of it is just like I know this is the one true church and I know that Jesus is my savior and I know. And so, like I yeah, my beliefs slowly shifted from like I know to I believe, and now I'm at the point where I'm okay with saying that I don't know, because I, instead of like, putting all my eggs in this basket of, like the Mormon church is the true church and it's the church that God wants us to go to. Um, I've, I've started to be able to see good in every, everything, every church, every person, everything, because who really knows?

53:56 - Sam (Host)

no one. Yeah, yeah, and I think I one of the things I mean. Obviously there's like like a multitude of differences between, I guess, like uh, the Mormon church and, you know, the evangelical, like the mainstream Christian church, uh, but as you were talking, it reminded me of the fact that, like um, am I right in the understanding that you have a personal testimony in terms of, like your faith, but you also have a testimony of the church yes yeah, right okay you were right.

54:31 - Kristi (Guest)

So, like the we, you have a testimony not only of like the gospel being like true, but the church itself like being the one true church. Because how the mormon church all started was joseph smith prayed to god and he got told that none of the churches on the earth were true and he needed to start his own church.

54:53 - Sam (Host)

Yeah, okay, yeah so was it synonymous for you to uh when you left the church and when you started deconstructing the faith, or did they come at different points?

55:08 - Kristi (Guest)

they have come at different points. For me, yeah, um, I uh, my first like I guess step on like the deconstruction path was like living in that nuanced space and trying to separate like church from like faith and gospel and like belief, um, and trying to separate like church from God, because they're very much like interwoven um, and so like that was the first step and it's just been like incremental, like steps since, then, kind of um, and now I'm to the point where I'm like the church very much was like put everybody in boxes and like make everything neat and tidy and I'm very much like a junk drawer now, like there is no boxes, like we're just doing what feels good and right and like resonates you know, yeah, um, would you still call yourself a Mormon?

56:07

I would. Um, I actually like I was actually thinking about this recently Cause I'll be. I went to like hang out with friends and someone was like is everyone here like ex Mormon? And I was like I don't necessarily like think of myself as like ex Mormon, like, even though I'm not going to church and I don't necessarily like my beliefs don't align with the church anymore, like I was born in it. My family has a long history in it. Like I know that I will never completely be able to separate myself from like Mormonism. It's like in my upbringing and like my formative years and so like I would still call myself Mormon because that's like my background.

56:52 - Sam (Host)

I wonder whether, like it's almost sounds, like it's a cultural thing, like it's a bud oh, oh, yeah, I do there.

57:00 - Kristi (Guest)

It's mormonism is definitely its own culture, it has its own language, it has like everything like um, and so I don't know if I'll ever like give up that label. I know a lot of people who've left the church like really want to like distance themselves, but I'm like, like I said, I'm trying to work on accepting all parts of me and being Mormon is like a part of me.

57:24 - Sam (Host)

So and I label that I associate with yeah, yeah, and, and I mean like labels are complex, but, um, like broad strokes, labels are complex, um, but I know that leaving the mormon church is not the same as leaving other churches. In that, um, am I right in? I'm trying to think back from like posts of yours that I've seen. You're fine, yeah, like there's a. There's a concept around like you can leave the church but your records are still like as a member of the church, Is that?

58:04 - Kristi (Guest)

right, yeah, okay, so like, yeah, so when, when someone is either born, like from parents who so, like my children, have records in the church because we were married in the temple and they're born to us, so they're automatically like in the covenant as well okay, we call it um or you're baptized into the church, like converted into the church, you get a record made um and it's just like. It has a membership number and everything, and so there are a lot of like you have to form a formally like request to remove your record from, like the church database, um, which I have not done. And, uh, what. Part of my reason for that is my parents have asked me not to Um and so I'm kind of trying to honor them Um, but I'm like still thinking about it, especially with like recent events um surrounding the church. So, but it's so technically.

59:09

Yeah, I am still a member. I still like I'm still counted among the membership of the church Um, but I am still a member. I still like I'm still counted among the membership of the church um, but I am definitely not practicing how has your relationship with your parents and your siblings?

59:24

um. So my I, I was not the first okay nice.

59:29 - Sam (Host)

I'm not the first.

59:32 - Kristi (Guest)

I was the first born but not the first to leave the church. So my um, my brother and my so I'm the oldest of four, my brother's the youngest and then the sister right above him um, they both left around the same time not around my time, but like for them around the same time and they had been out for a few um years, right, I think, like I want to say at least like three years previous to me, starting like the process of deconstructing and leaving um. And at first um, I was like really sad that they left um, but at the same time, them leaving showed me that like the church doesn't like, like I don't know how the church doesn't like make you as a person like my sister and my brother were still the same people.

They always have been they just like people they always have been. They just like were not participating in religion anymore, um. So, yeah, so I didn't I wasn't the first one um to leave, but I am the first and only one who's been married and who has kids, and so that is kind of like a little bit of a I don't want to say like sore spot, but like basically, like me and my husband leaving like we're turning our back on like our eternal marriage, and so I think that's hard for on my parents, especially my dad, because he actually, like has worked for the church like pretty much since I've been alive, so like 30 plus years um, and has held lots of high like callings in the church and stuff, and so his identity is really wrapped up in the church um, and the only they have been very respectful. The only like moment that I felt a little like icky about was we spent Christmas at their house, and on Christmas Eve we have this tradition of like what Christmas song has like been your favorite this year? And you talk about like why, like, whether you heard it at like a happy moment or like whatever, and so my dad was like talking about his favorite Christmas song and then he like bore his testimony about how he knows that the church is true and like that he respects that we have our agency and we can choose different paths, but that, like this, is the path you know and so it's kind of just. It was a little uh, sad um, and we don't talk about, like we don't really talk about church stuff.

Um, I sometimes will talk about it with my mom because I feel like she's a little bit more I don't want to say nuanced, but like I feel like she has more grace for us because like it's a different love like my mom.

I know in my heart my dad loves me unconditionally, but I have daddy issues, so like it does not compute and so like my mom is more of a safe space. But even sometimes with her I have to set boundaries because like it's just too like painful and I feel like she feels like I'm like attacking her for like raising us in the church, like if I say the church has harmed me in any way, um, which I'm not, like I fully, 100% understand, like why they raised us that way and where they're coming from and like all of that, and I like I would say that for anyone who is in religion, like I understand, if it's good for you, it's good, yeah, and keep doing it. But like it wasn't, it like stopped being good for me that's how I explained my reason for leaving ultimately. Like it was good for a while and then it stopped, like bringing goodness and peace into my life, and so I changed my path, you know yeah, I think, um, I think it.

Religion gets tricky when, uh, like, I will often say, I'm not anti-god, I'm not anti-religion, I'm not anti-church, but I'm anti-harm and I'm anti-fundamentalism. And I think it's when what is good for you is then used as a tool to go well, if it's good for me, it's the only good, and now you must have that also, and without that there is no good. And so it's when it goes from that personal, uh part of you to being, uh, almost like weaponized, as like you have to, because it's good for me, it's the only good, um, and so it's a a really tricky, tricky dynamic. And also I imagine that there's probably a an added layer of, like you said that you know, dad was a Bishop in that like it's.

I find that anyone who holds a position of church leadership, particularly when you are one of the top, the top dogs, that like it's not just a job, it's not like it's your whole identity, it's like your whole life's purpose, and to separate that in any way is is not feasible for us, for some people, and so it's, it's tricky, yeah yeah, but overall my relationship is really good with my family and I have one sister who's still still in and she very much like is the same person she's always been and respects that her three siblings have the heart I like I want to say have deserted her and like broken apart or eternal family Because, like, like I said at the beginning of the podcast, families are forever.

It's like emphasized so much and so like. That I think for me was and is the hardest part of like leaving the church was feeling like, even though I had two siblings that had already left, I was like, oh, I'm just fracturing like our chances of being together in eternity, like more, yeah, you know so yeah what has your deconstruction looked like in terms of like, what has helped you, what navigate this, like shifting faith, perception and all of these questions that you have?

what's helped, um, so the biggest thing that helped me was actually starting my Instagram account, and I started it, I think, may of 2022. And it has morphed and changed as like this nuanced person and like fight for like equality and equity in the church and all that stuff. Um, and then it like just developed into my faith journey. But that is like social media and connecting with other people who are deconstructing or have deconstructed has been really good and like writing is a therapy for me, so I've been writing a lot of poetry about it. Just getting like those thoughts on paper has been really helpful. And I've met well, like through Instagram. I've met people here in Arizona and I now I have like this amazing group of like ex-Mormon friends that also understand, um, a lot of what I'm going through, and so, like it's it's been really good, and I have to like say kudos to my husband because he's just been like just been rolling with the punches over here.

Yeah, yeah, he's been a big support yeah and um and I mean speaking of of writing because, like, by the time this comes out, uh, you will be an official author with like a book on the market that people can go and get, which I mean? Firstly, is that like absolutely wild for you? It's wild for me.

I like and this isn't how I expected my author debut to happen, but I've always dreamed of like writing a book and I've always had an like love for poetry, and so I put together like a collection of poems that have been written over these two years of really digging in and deconstructing and I just like, I hope that people can find things they relate to in it, whether their deconstruction looks the same as mine or different. And yeah, there's a lot of sad poems, angry poems, poems about god there's a lot of. I mean, yeah, it's just a, it's kind of like a journal of, like my beliefs. So I'm excited it comes out middle of october and I'm working hard on it. Yeah, but, like.

It's wild to me to think, because this has been probably a dream since like sixth grade since 12 years old I've been dreaming of like publishing something, so yeah, I love that and I love, um, I love that it's like a memoir, but it's not a memoir because it's like in poetry form.

And I love that because then you know like memoirs are great and they're, you know, they're lovely and wonderful, but uh, poetry is like art, it's open to interpretation and you can take um what is like relatable and, you know, hits home for you and and I think that, yeah, I think that's beautiful, it's like putting art into word form as opposed to it being a chronological memoir of your life. Instead, it's a memoir of your complexity of human emotion and I love that that's it is.

I'm like I know when October comes, because we're recording this at the end of August.

I know when that comes.

I'm going to have like a vulnerability hangover and probably have to like like, do some, you know, relaxing and not looking at social media for a while Just um just book, like extra therapist appointments appointments. Oh, I am starting therapy again.

Yes, we love that so yeah, just like just tell your therapist look like book coming out in October, just like be ready, be ready.

Oh, I mean and, like I said, by the time this comes out, it will already be out, and and like I said, by the time this comes out it will already be out. And so, like I will, you know, be sure to pop the link in the show notes for people to be able to go and get it. But I love finishing these episodes with like a word of encouragement or a thought or a piece of advice that you would have for someone who is fresh in their deconstruction, but I'm going to specify it a little bit for Mormons, who are fresh in their deconstruction and who have no idea what on earth to do.

I'm trying to think of a word, but there's not.

Oh, it doesn't need to be a word, just like an encouragement, or like a piece of advice, or what would you say to them?

if I had to say one thing to anyone who's like even having any doubts, like surrounding Mormonism, it would just be you know what's best for you and if that's the church, great, and if that's not the church, still great. And it doesn't have to be black and white, it and it doesn't have to be right and wrong. As long as you are, you know, following your own intuition and like what is benefiting your life, you're going to be happy yeah yeah, and it's hard shit.

So like, welcome to the shit show. I say that all the time I'm like welcome.

Um, we're all a little mad here, but it'll be fun um, there's people that have gone before you. It's fine yeah, I mean, isn't there a line in alice, in alice in wonderland, where, um, like, they say, like are we all a little mad? And then the father says, like all the best kind of people are welcome to this kind of people? Um, welcome. It will be hard at times, but it will also be really freaking fun at times it's a time of just discovery yeah, yeah, I.

I will often describe it as like a little bit like a roller coaster. I never actually really decided to get on, but nonetheless I'm here and I'm gonna see what on earth happens as I ride it.

So it is, it's like that yeah, it's like it's like you're at the theme park with your friends. They were hyping you up. You're strapped in. It's too late. Like you're welcome?

yes, right, just hang on for the ride oh, I love that um, and I mean that's probably like one of the most real versions of like encouragement that I've had. But it's like you know it's, it's real, but it's what I think people sometimes need to hear and that like actually like you're gonna it might be a time, but also like you'll be okay, like yeah, yeah, for Mormons especially, it's going to feel like you are.

We believe so strongly in like eternal life. It's gonna feel like you're forfeiting your eternal life, and I just want to say like, if you believe in a loving God, I don't think forfeiting your eternal life is possible. I love it and your world's gonna feel like it's ending, but it's really not.

Yeah, yeah, because it is your identity is just wrapped up in it, for sure, yeah, I think that's a really uh, I love, yeah, the belief in God and eternity. I love that. That's I'm gonna be thinking about that yeah.

So my biggest thing is like I think that's like what I took away is like our church talked so much about like love and like, obviously, families and like these eternal connections, and I still want all of that, like I still want love in this life, I still want like a connection in this life, I want connection in the next life, whatever that looks like like you know.

So yeah, I love them. Thank you so much for joining me you're welcome.

Thank you, I'm like I feel like I had a good therapy session with my therapist and I mean, that's what we love um pseudo like I mean.

I have had moments where, like I'm like man, this podcast is turning into pseudo therapy like reign it in you didn't really give me any like tools.

You just let me tell my crap to the world yeah yeah, I, um, I actually described the podcast to somebody else who was also a therapist. I was like it's basically just like the way for me to be a therapist without the pressure of actually being a therapist, um, and I just get to like lean into, like my natural curiosity and love of people and their stories and without the pressure of like actually having to be their therapist, which is great, it's like the best of things, so it is the best kind of thing. Yeah, but, um, but I am, you know, very conscious that and I've sat in in your position, in the position of being on a podcast sharing their story, and I am conscious and aware of how much emotional energy that takes, and so I'm always I get to the end of these episodes and I am filled with appreciation and gratitude that you have mustered the emotional energy to share your story. So, thank you, thanks for tuning in to this episode of Beyond the Surface. I hope you found today's conversation as insightful and inspiring as I did.

If you enjoyed the episode, be sure to subscribe, leave a review and share it with others who might benefit from these stories. Stay connected with us on social media for updates and more content. I love connecting with all of you. Remember, no matter where you are in your journey, you're not alone. Until next time, keep exploring, keep questioning and keep moving forward. Take care.