In this episode of Beyond the Desk, Mark Thomas is joined by Nigel Walsh, Global Head of Insurance at ServiceNow.

Nigel shares his journey from writing 210 letters trying to secure his first position at the start of his career to key leadership positions at some of the world's leading firms, including Capgemini, Deloitte, Google and his current position at ServiceNow.

The conversation explores Nigel’s early route into technology, his move into insurance, the lessons he drew from consulting and global technology organisations, and what it was like to help shape Google Cloud’s approach to the insurance market.

Mark and Nigel also discuss the next phase of AI in insurance, why the industry is moving beyond isolated pilots, and how agents, workflow orchestration and automation could reshape underwriting, claims and operations over the next 12–18 months.

Guest: Nigel Walsh

Global Head of Insurance at ServiceNow

LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/nigelwalsh/

Host: Mark Thomas

Co-Founder and Managing Partner at Invecta Group

LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/markthomas0/

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Foreign.

Hello and welcome to beyond the Desk, the podcast where I sit down with some of the most inspiring leaders across the global insurance sector.

I'm Mark Thomas and each week I'll be bringing you a senior leader from across the insurance world to hear their story and views on the future of insurance.

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So without further ado, let's get into the next episode of Beyond.

Nigel, welcome to the podcast.

How you doing?

I'm fantastic, thank you.

How are you?

Yeah, I'm very good, thanks.

Right, so we're gonna do what we always do, which is go right back to the start of your career in a sec, but do you want to give a brief intro for first and then we'll work backwards and go from there?

Yeah, I'd love to.

So, Nigel Walsh, I lead global insurance for service now.

Been in and around the insurance industry for quite a few years.

Prior to that I said Google.

Prior to that Deloitte and prior to that Capgemini.

So a long time.

All looking after insurance.

Yeah, amazing.

Right, so let's go right back to the start.

Am I right in thinking you're not like an out and out techie from like that's not your background?

I don't know.

Tell us about how you got into this early days of your career then.

Well, my very first job out of university, I went to university at Salford doing business.

I didn't study computer science or anything.

Yeah, was I wrote 210 Letters to companies in the area where the yellow pages still existed.

I'm now showing showing my age to local companies.

I actually wanted to be an accountant.

Nice Jewish boy.

You've got to be an accountant, a doctor or a dentist or a lawyer or something like that.

So I wanted to be an accountant and I was offered a number of placements, some in technology, some in accounting.

And the one I went for was for an office furniture company near St. Albans that gave me six months in accounts and six months in technology and I figured out that I wasn't so much of a fan of the accounting side, even though I love numbers and figures and whatever else, but really, really enjoyed the customer service side of it.

So I was in the IT help desk and IT support.

So that's what got me into technology first and foremost.

Amazing.

Okay, so what was the first job out of, you know.

Did you do one of those 200.

It was one of those 210 letters that got me there.

So I actually, I did a gap year at university, one of these sandwich courses back then, which was all quite new then I think a year out at the company president office furniture.

And they then said stay on and we'll invite you back after the summer holidays, whatever else.

So we'll sponsor you for your last year of university if you come back and work for us for a few years.

Which was a fantastic thing.

So I went back to work in technology and technology support and worked my way up through the, through the ranks into IT manager before I left.

So what, what firm was that?

A company called President Office Furniture, part of the Aronson Group.

So they generally made office furniture.

I loved it because it was.

I'm quite handsy.

I love seeing physical things made, which is one of my annoyances with insurance.

So you often just see data go in and data go out here.

There were trees and wood and whatever else coming in and like 300 guys and girls on the shop floor manufacturing and sewing together veneers for woods to make office furniture.

It was really, really cool.

Yeah.

And so what?

And so that was support.

And then what did.

How long were you there?

Support technology.

I was there for I think.

Oh God, you're catching me now.

Four or five years.

Okay.

Easily.

So we moved from the premises St. Albans up to an area in Dunstable to a brand new purpose built facility and it was just phenomenal.

On the site of an old tank factory rebuilt from the ground up.

Um, just brilliant.

Just really, really good to see it go from me crawling around ceilings, putting BNC cabling in again, showing my age through to like a state of the art data center capability and so much, much more.

So yeah, so I was totally wrong.

You were you.

So you were technical at the start.

I was technical and I was learning things like VMs and powerhouse working with decks deck vaxes and I saw the shift into Citrix boxes and intel servers and so much more.

So seeing green screen on the factory go to web accessible consoles which was really, really cool thing to go see.

So when you left there, you went in.

Were you still kind of technically hands on at that point or you got.

Gone into management, IT support, IT management, then into pre sales.

I went to a company called Com Disco and Com Disco people will know as advanced recovery services and so much more.

And they were selling a new product, they were recruiting people, things for people for and Join that team as a pre sales guy to go and say look I understand the technology now I'm there to go demonstrate it to other people.

So my, my journey through the career has been really lovely.

So learn the tools first and foremost.

First and foremost.

Then get to go and share what I'm up to.

And as I go through different organizations over the years I've gone from pre sales to sales to sales management and then as you as you know, cross the chasm into consulting and then back into vendor again.

So starting out pre sales, showing people what we're up to, demonstrating the capability because I could articulate it clearly and they kept on moving up and up.

And so when was the first kind of foray into touching on insurance?

I was working for a company called Callidus at the time, since been acquired by SAP.

And Callidus did incentive compensation management at its core which was think about it as agency or broker commissions.

If you're selling products, how do you provide people's commissioning calculate which are really, really complicated.

And back then I was working with a number of SI partners, one of them being IBM and a chap called Andrew McQuaid.

And after a while Andrew moved on from IBM and went to Capgemini and I then went on to other things and he said to me look, I need a safe pair of hands can work with me at CAP to do insurance.

I said look I've sold to insurers but I'm not a deep domain insurance expert.

But that's dare I say probably 20 plus years ago now and the rest is history.

It's one of those industries you get into, you don't get back out of very quickly and I have no desire to get out of it.

I absolutely love it as you, as you know.

Yeah, so.

So Capgemini was the sort of, am I right in thinking he, you went to Capgemini to work for him and what, what kind of role were you doing there?

So I was doing a sales job.

So I went from pre sales up to sales management, everything else.

Before Callidus there was a number of other technology vendors.

I went through the dot com bubble and burst of doing contact center software, web self service chat and all those things.

Well we're always going to chat you on the Internet or look up things online themselves.

Yeah.

And here we are 26 years later.

That's all we do.

We don't want to Call you in many, many cases.

So it was really, really and truly ahead of its time.

But it was back when folks like Genesis, nice, Cisco were all getting into contact central, all that sort of stuff.

So multichannel or omnichannel at that time was still out there 26 years ago.

Yeah, and so, so then when you joined Capgemini it was, it was a sales role and, and I mean was it.

What kind of stuff were you selling into services.

So fully into services by this point.

So I'd move from technology and understanding what went on in a contact center customer service environment through into services.

And this was specifically for insurers.

So across property casualty and life in annuities and Capgemini has a phenomenal, even to this day, a phenomenal insurance book globally.

I was helping clients work out what they were doing as we're looking to modernize and do lots of other good things going forwards.

I spent seven years at Capgemini again working way up through the ranks.

I finished left there seven years later having then leading the insurance team in the UK and handed over to a guy called James Krueger who's still here to this day, which is brilliant.

Yeah, yeah.

I think you probably won't remember this, but we definitely crossed paths when you were at Capgemini.

Zurich was my first ever insurance client kind of 15 years ago or something like that when they were doing Guidewire and stuff like that.

So I think I remember that one very well.

I say to the entire team from that project, both at Capgemini and at the customer.

So Steve Lewis was the CEO, Claudio Geneo was a coo, Anna Fleming, Adam Warren.

There was so many folks on there that have genuinely pivotal to my career about understanding insurance, understanding claims and so much more.

So I speak to them all to this day.

It's a great thing.

Yeah, yeah.

So, so then you went from there to Deloitte, is that right?

Similar kind of thing.

Yeah, similar thing.

So I went from execution and learning the what delivery was all about and I learned from some really great people like Sean o' Neill and Simon Parker who were hands on delivering the projects day in, day out about what?

You know, there's one thing selling it, but the proof is actually in execution.

So it's one thing to go, here's our estimates against various different competitors, whatever else, then proving it and then learning from both Adam and Barry Perkins and Cloud and other was just brilliant.

As I said it was, it was a really instrumental moment in my career about why I genuinely now love insurance to this day.

And have a really good understanding of not just the software and technology side, but actually what it takes to get these things delivered, or at least major transformations like that back in those days.

And I did loads more from there.

We were engaged with DLG and AXA and Aviva and so many others.

They're all high street brands.

We had a reputation to go deliver on and we built a really strong capability about Guidewire in the uk.

Yeah.

And so when you did the Deloitte role, was that.

Was it selling similar stuff then?

Still selling services and that kind of.

You're still in the consulting space, still.

Consulting, still services, but it flipped at that point.

So this is.

I'm going to get lost on the years, but this was at the very early stage of insurtech.

So I was finishing off in Capgemini, building the.

The InsurTech accelerators with Sabine and a bunch of others.

That was just all starting to come up, going, fintech's gone.

What's happening in insuretech?

So we then got into the whole, what would insuretech look like if it was going to disrupt?

And everyone was going to disrupt back in those days and insurers of old were dead and it was never going to work and everyone was going to change the world.

We now know a very different reality, obviously, but the Deloitte world was very much focused on future of insurance.

Where is it going and Insuretech itself and how you could do things in a different way.

And actually it was one of those customers I'd worked with in the past that said, Nigel, there's got to be a different way.

Rather than taking three, four, five years to do a transformation, how can we do a quicker, faster in a more agile way?

Yeah.

That led me to both Deloitte and to InsureTech.

Yeah.

And then you made the kind of big switch.

Was the one that's kind of noticeable one on your cv, certainly for me anyway, was that.

Go to Google.

It's obviously massive.

Massive name.

So.

But.

But going, I guess, was it bend the role then?

I mean, again, I'm not sure exactly what the.

The parameters of the role that you did there.

Is that in the uk?

Were you based in the UK there?

Based in the us?

So actually it was a mat.

It was a massive move.

Like people would always say to me, you know, even my wife would say to me, what's your dream job?

And I think I was actually reading an article from Tracy at Aon last week.

I'm sorry, I'm in insurance, we'll come back to that, because that's really important.

But I finished up at Deloitte with Andy Lee's and a bunch of others.

And I had this, had this call from someone because I built a reputation around Insurtech and whatever else.

Yeah.

And they said, would you like to come and run insurance for Google Cloud in New York?

Okay.

And it's the kind of call that just puts you on your back foot and go, you never thought you'd get this sort of call.

It's Google.

Everyone knows who Google is.

Deloitte, Capgemini, all the other companies I'd work for before are phenomenal brands, phenomenal, genuinely phenomenal organizations in what we do to, to this day.

But it's Google.

Yeah, you kind of have to picture.

It doesn't really get any bigger, does it?

And it's Google in New York.

So it was kind of like it was as always, the wrong time for our family to move and whatever else, it was just wrong on so many reasons.

But one of the things you just can't say no to.

So we bit the bullet and moved over to New York.

And I led the team for four years on the go to market side for helping shape how Google Cloud was going to lean into insurance, taking the cool technology that they've got in Google Cloud and are now bringing that to market for insurers world over.

So your role there was that.

And that was that kind of.

When you say the head of insurance, what does that, what does that actually mean day to day?

So very similar to what I'm doing now is go to market.

So we don't have responsibility or accountability for the actual numbers that the sales guys do.

They report up into sales directors, whatever else.

But we do help set up things like partner strategy, marketing strategy, go to market strategy, that is.

Where do we go tell our story?

How do we tell our story?

Who do we tell it to?

Typically technology companies go to the technology firms like they'll go to a cio, cto, ciso, et cetera, et cetera.

But of course we want to get into line of business.

We want to understand what's going on, claims underwriting service, and then share how applicable our technology can be for solving problems that they have in line of business, not just in technology.

So I often break the world down into, in and down.

How do we help our organization?

And then up and out.

How do we help our organizations that then interact with brokers, consumers or third parties?

So is that a lot more kind of strategic than just a kind of pure sell try and bring in Revenue numbers.

Is it, is that, is that how you.

It has.

It's as important.

I mean, I wouldn't say one's more strategic than the other because ultimately they both drive each other, but it's working with the teams to go, well, I can talk to you about BigQuery or I can talk to you about document AI.

But if I put document AI, which no one's going to have heard of, into underwriting or claims context.

Well, document AI helps you ingest all of the submissions or SOVs or slips, whatever else that you've got into your underwriting process to then allow you to process the data in a much smarter, faster way.

Yeah, powered by Doc AI.

So it's understanding the problem and then working back into what we're trying to solve.

And so was that a good move?

Loved it, genuinely.

Like the people living in New York, the travel, the brand, everyone's curious.

Like I often talk about companies as push or pull.

Capgemini is a push.

You've got to go out there and you've got to sell what we do.

It's a very competitive space.

I would argue the big four, the Deloitte's, the EY's, et cetera, et cetera, are pools.

Because there is a very strong body of domain experts that you will go to, whether it's risk advisory, tax consulting that you then go, I need someone to go do X, Y and Z. I need a specialist.

I'm going to go to one of the big four to get it done.

Yeah.

Unlike other vendors, the brand that is Google, I think is a pool.

The brand that is anthropic today is a pool.

The brand that is OpenAI 3 years ago was a pool.

So Google was very much a pool.

Everyone knows the brand.

If I asked you before this session, what does Google do in insurance?

Most people would tell you I couldn't tell you.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

So what, what was the kind of mission when you went there?

Did you.

What was that?

Did they give you a, did they give you a kind of what you needed to do in, in the.

And was it always a kind of three or four year move for you?

I mean, you never know, right?

Never say never.

We always say we give it a few years first and foremost because again, we've got kids at teenage years and go through schools and whatever else.

The mission was always to make insurance more relevant.

So make Google Cloud relevant for the insurance industry by telling and understanding the right stories.

We had hundreds of insurers that were Google first, that is they're using the Google Cloud platform.

And to give you an idea of the scale and growth of the broader organization, this is all public information.

When I joined, it was a roughly a $10 billion a year company.

When I left, I believe it was about 12 billion a quarter.

And since then you've seen the catastrophic heights they keep coming to.

I mean, it's on fire in a really positive way right now.

We noticed lots of little trends.

For example, companies in Europe were very much focused on Microsoft and the Azure stack.

They were very friendly towards that because they have Office or Outlook.

Therefore it's incumbent so to turn on AI or whatever else was easy to go.

Let's put our applications onto that.

Yeah.

Bear in mind this is also seven, eight years ago, when the debate was still very much around, should we go to cloud or should we not?

By the time I left that debate, that question had gone away completely.

We're going to cloud.

Which cloud?

Was the next question.

And how do we split that between 1, 2 or 3 clouds?

The US was very much focused on Amazon Asia, different because of different rules or local players.

I think today it's fair to say everyone is multi cloud and the regulators will tell you, you can't put all your eggs into one basket.

Your risk teams will tell you, don't put all your eggs into one basket.

It's just making sure you've got those planned out accordingly.

And I think everyone's now going to end up in a multi cloud environment of some sort going forward.

Yeah.

And so what made you, what made you leave?

A couple of reasons.

Four years was great.

There was a personal reason and a work reason.

The personal reason was my mum was getting ill.

I thought about that quite openly.

So I wanted to come back and spend time here and make sure we looked after her, which we did, which was great.

But then also, to be fair, the opportunity came along from Servers now and I got a call from a friend of mine that I'd worked with at Deloitte.

He was at Salesforce.

He said, come and speak to my wife.

And this goes back to how small our industry really is.

I said, look, honestly, I know who you guys are, but I've not seen you in an insurance deal for 10 years.

And as I dug into it more and more, and I did my own due diligence on what ServiceNow was up to.

There was an interview between Jensen Wong of Nvidia and Bill McDermott, our CEO, former CEO of SAP, where Jensen described this as the AI orchestration layer for the enterprise.

And that was my, ahama, because for four years I'd been going, we can put AI here or we can put AI here or we can put AI over here.

So it was solving point problems.

But in insurance, as you know, the hard work is A solving the point, but B then moving work around the organization.

And that for me was really, really exciting.

So actually showing that it was built on robust workflow, started an ITSM that everyone knows this for, but moved up into HR risk and so much more, but then also goes into claims underwriting, service product innovation and so much more.

So actually it was the same and similar mode to what I'd started out at Google, but applying it to something that had incumbency of 500 plus insurers that use it today for the things that it was known and loved for, but now wants to move into the other areas that we was just coming out of the era of, you know, agents were just coming out or it was just, it was, it really feels like at the right place, right time, right moment, it got me back to home.

And I think it's a phenomenal opportunity based on what we're seeing right now.

Because I've noticed, I mean, I think, I don't know if I've just noticed it recently.

It's been going on for a while, but ServiceNow seemed to definitely have doubled down on the marketing side of things.

Like the kind of agentix stuff seems to be their kind of where they're going, but they've kind of ramped up a lot on that front.

Is that been, is that just, I've just noticed that an opportune time or has that been.

No, no, I think you've noticed it and that's exactly our purpose right now.

I genuinely feel we are at the right space, at the right time, having thousands of customers across lots of industries that leverage us for their core workflows, whether it's HR or IT or risk, whatever else.

You can't put agents on things that you don't know.

And I think putting AI into the flow of work is really, really cool.

So from an insurance perspective, it's a really, really great and natural fit to move forward in something that's in your business, approved by it, approved by security, so you're not going through lengthy processes to go I need to get someone else approved and back into the, to the organization.

So the other thing I love about it is we have a strategy that says any, any, any, any.

That means any data, any workflow, any, any AI model like you've.

I often describe this as the Steel thread that goes through an organization and what you choose to hang off of that is entirely up to you.

We work with databricks, Mongo, Snowflake, we work with Amazon, Microsoft, Google.

We work with Anthropic, Gemini.

Like it's, it's any, any, any.

You can generally choose which ones you want and most insurers around the world will have a variant of all of those things, but they need the ability to understand control and audit.

And the way you do that is by linking back to ServiceNow to go.

We've got all that built up in what we call AI control tower.

So is your role there similar to the role that you were doing at Google?

Yeah, very much so.

Pushing our capability and telling our story for what we're doing inside insurance, whether it's helping out in the underwriting or claims space, and I can be very clear, it's claims operations or underwriting operations.

It's not.

We've no desire to be a core admin or anything else.

We can work with those and augment them and there's things that happen upstream and downstream to those systems that usually either get configured into them or stuck in 17 other screens around the place that everyone sees day in, day out, or a spreadsheet or a multitude of all those put together.

So if we can help orchestrate all of that chaos around the edge and give you the auditability of it, we then interact with the system of record, whatever it might be, and actually then allow you to move the work around the organization efficiently.

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Yeah, so that takes us up to kind of present day.

So what I wanted to just touch on a little bit there is what are the kind of big key kind of lessons I guess you've learned from working?

Obviously you work for some big consulting firms, but I think it's safe to say kind of go into like a Google, as you kind of pointed out, is kind of, it probably doesn't get any bigger, right?

Like, I mean, there's a handful of companies in that stratosphere and look, I'd argue even service now in the IT space, certainly in that, that ballpark.

What, what were the, the main kind of learnings you took from going from those kind of core consulting firms to big vendors?

Was there anything that they did differently or that you saw as kind of a cultural thing in Google that really kind of separate them from, from other firms?

I think maybe it's an age thing as well, but I see this with my son right now as we go through the, the he's looking at universities and whatever else and, and work placements and stuff like that.

I think you have to just almost step back a little bit and go, what do I want out of each of these roles and what can I bring to each of these roles each and every time?

And you learn something from everyone.

Like my shortest role was Com Disco.

I never really enjoyed it.

It wasn't right for me.

But I met one of my best friends, so I'm an optimist, right?

So, and to this day, Hossein and I are still best of friends.

See him all the time.

He's the, you know, one of the first people I'll text if something's going good or bad and vice versa.

So you always get to meet or find something along the way that you'll go, what did I learn good?

What did I learn bad that I take to my next role.

So you know what you don't want, what you do want.

Capgemini.

I learned delivery.

Deloitte.

I learned strategy.

Google, I learned like the scale of technology and brand.

But brand alone, it will get you through the front door.

But then you've got to have something you can then go tell people.

I got to meet some phenomenal people at Google X, the moonshot factory where things like Waymo were created.

They were doing super cool things with a project called Bellwether for Wildfire Modeling.

So I met Sarah Russell and Josh.

Like the common theme through every one of these things is people.

I've met some phenomenal people along the way.

Andy Lees has been a long standing friend of mine, a partner at Deloitte to this day.

He was the CEO of Captain Financial Services and brought me across to, to Deloitte.

So you meet, you meet and make good friends along the way that you will stay with throughout your life.

And I think the same is true now.

I've taken one of the folks from Google who worked with me there to rejoin me over at ServiceNow.

And you see this time and time again.

So you build up communities of people that you like to work with and that like to work with you that can get things done and you kind of like finish each other's sentences because you know how people work and think, whatever else, and that makes a huge difference.

I think it's true of the insurance industry.

You see this a lot, right?

You see not just individuals, but almost team lifts going from one place to the other to go, let's go solve it.

I also feel like the careers are often like relay races.

So you'll run your lap, you'll do your lap or laps, whatever else, let's call each one a year and you'll give the ban to someone else.

And that's an okay thing.

You know, when I left Google, I was thinking, wow, people, everyone knew Google.

There was a little bit of a struggle to go, what do I do now?

Because Most people go ServiceNow.

I've not heard them before.

Unless you're in this space, we're obviously improving that because you've heard of them and lots of other people that are changing that.

But it's a really, really different thing.

But to be honest, in my entire career, I've worked for one company that people have heard of.

Yeah, yeah, so.

So I think in the role that you've been in, well, certainly for the last kind of 10, 15 years, you've had kind of a unique view of, of kind of the breadth of the insurance space and you kind of touched on AI.

Obviously that's a core part of the strategy, it seems, for ServiceNow.

So what's your kind of view on the industry at the moment of the difference between those that are using AI effectively and actually getting stuff done to those that are kind of a little bit in stuck mode or not acting quick enough?

What's your kind of bird's eye view?

I know it's a big question, but.

No, it's back to people.

It really is back to people.

So I think if I went back, if we had this conversation two years ago, three years ago, probably when we tried to start out in the first.

Place,.

I would tell you most people were trying something.

There was like very early on in the Gen AI.

I know it was mentioned Gen AI for years, right.

If it was like.

But in the Gen AI era, there was companies that were Turning it on and companies that were banning it.

Right.

And that was probably 80, 20, 80% people turn it on, 20% will turn it off.

That's now flipped.

Everyone's got it turned on.

What they're really worried about is using it safely and securely without it going rogue or whatever else inside their organization doing things.

I think the difference between folks that are using it well and folks that are not all depends on what they're optimizing for.

So as an outsider looking in, you have to look at the maturity of the organization and their ambition.

At Google, the example we used to use all the time was what key were up to with James Birch and the team over there and Alan too and so many others.

And that was a phenomenal thing that James Lord, John Abel and a whole crew of people did.

It was just the market said it couldn't be done and they did it, which I absolutely love.

And then everyone went, we want one of those now it works.

We'd like one of those.

So you know what insurance is like.

It's always quite cautious, risk adverse by nature.

Someone else has always got to go first and once it's gone, everyone else then lines up behind to go, well we want one of those, we want one of those or we'll go build it ourselves.

So I think the gap is changing from those that are using it and that are not.

The next big difference though is people going am I using it in silos?

I've got X number of pilots and underwriting service hr, it, whatever else versus those are now starting to join the dots.

And I still think we're very early on joining the dots phase.

We might have gone gen AI ingestion, summarization or whatever it might be in a division or a department or a process or line of business.

Now we're starting to add agentic and starting to do more than one task.

But we're still human in the loop and I think we will be for quite a while.

Sometimes it's risk, sometimes it's corporate governance and sometimes it's regulation.

You go out to some states in the US and they'll say to you, you're not allowed to not do this without a human to overseer whatever else it might be.

But one of the phrases I love at the moment is I think we're actually raising the floor, not just the ceiling.

So I think the whole industry has leveled up massively.

I don't think I could count on a single firm that's not doing something now.

What they have to do is work out how we keep up with or where they want to set their maturity over the next 12, 24, 36 months.

Are you still seeing examples of people where people are really hesitant on to go into it?

Because certainly there's lots of noise around the AI, but like you don't certainly in my line of work you don't tend to get that many tangible examples of really where it's made drastic differences outside of kind of the more operational type type stuff, I don't think.

But I mean do you think there's still a kind of a cultural hesitancy around it?

Not cultural.

And I think again back to my Paul push theory.

Yeah, I think people were wary early on, but I think now employees all over, whether you're.

I've got CEOs that vibe code that remain nameless, that will literally sit there and try things out.

And I love that group because it's like why can't we do this in a quarter of that a time or 10th amount of time, look what I've done before 8am on the train, on the way in or whatever else.

And they're generally that like we want that level of curiosity and everything else.

We just need to be able to deploy it safely and securely.

So I don't think we've got the hesitance that we had.

But I do go back to the push pull where before people were being pushed this technology on whether it was RPA a decade ago and now AI or AI agents, whatever else to now having employees going teach me, let me have the ability to go learn.

I want new tools to go try.

And they're crying out for access, training, skills and so much more because they want to be relevant in this role in 5, 10, 15 years time.

And how do you see it over the next.

I used to always say this kind of over the next three or four years, but that's way too long in this world.

So like the next kind of 12, 18 months say, what do you think are going to be the kind of big shifts from an AI perspective, but specifically in insurance, I think the concept.

Of a AI agent to support everything that you do will be table stakes.

Like everyone will have an assistant of some sort doing something for you.

And if we're still copying and pasting stuff into spreadsheets and documents, then we have fundamentally failed.

Like all of that work could be automated away and can go away.

I think the ROI of AI right now is under massive scrutiny because you've heard the phrase token maxing where people are using loads and loads of tokens.

And the reality is actually three people is cheaper and more effective and better for society.

So it's working out where you apply it and where you don't apply it.

Aviva used to have a phrase in the digital transformation era, if you go back those years, which was digital first, but not everywhere.

And I love the concept of it because it's like, just be pragmatic about where we use it, where we don't.

Like, we don't want to put AI absolutely everywhere, but there's certain places we do want to put it.

We want to make sure people are using it day in, day out.

So 12 to 18 months from now, I'm hoping everyone has an AI assistant of some sort that not only helps them do the work, but then does some of the work for them at the same time.

And it might be ingesting something, whether it's emails, PDFs, documents, images.

Like, we've been talking about this for years.

Like, almost every project at Google started out with ingestion.

Lots of things that Deloitte were finishing up with.

We like to do ingestion and slips.

And we're all different, we're unique.

And the reality is the technology has got so good these days that the accuracy, whether it's ours or some of our partners like Mia's or others, just plug it in and make it work.

It's just.

I have a.

My whole theory is the future will be orchestrated, not built.

So just join the dots together of the things that you have in your estate today, the things that you need to bring in.

But it's still that still thread that goes to the organization.

So you kind of think everybody have almost like a general kind of assistant that they can kind of just give basic tasks to, and it kind of.

Goes off and don't even think they're basic anymore.

Like, for example, I'm always tinkering.

I was chatting to Matt Connolly about this at the weekend.

I've taken my whoop data, my Strava exercise data, my food data from my fitness power, my supplements that I take and stuff like that, put it all into an AI and say, give me a full physiological review, including blood results and whatever else.

And think about this in the underwriting world or claims world, where all we're doing is taking information from multiple sources in multiple formats or whatever else.

I've just done that.

And in literally one or two clicks and a couple of prompts, I've got a full physiological review with commentary about why my resting heart rate's changed over the last couple of years, why I'm missing what I'm missing from my diet in terms of Omega 3, like, it's super great insights that I couldn't have got by individually looking at any one of those things on its own.

But bringing it together was unbelievable.

Yeah.

When it starts connecting all those things up, kind of fair.

Because there still is a.

You're right, there's still a fair bit of copy and paste and stuff like that.

Even with AI that will be gone.

That's a thing of the past and it will take time for us to just get through those things.

In the next 12 to 18 months we can automate all of those sorts of things.

Like the whole open claw stuff that happened, I'm going to say six months ago, it just took off.

And if people were installing open claws in the insurance world, of which I know a few, I was very cautious given the security concerns.

But of course acquired by OpenAI, then bought in and over the next couple of months you'll see more and more enterprise claw type stuff.

Nvidia have got a capability in this space.

There's loads there.

But that's connecting the physical world of an insurance operator, whichever function that you're in, and the AI world in a really, really interesting way.

So I love, generally love all that sort of stuff.

I think also the.

It's a really basic thing, but as soon as people embrace the voice part of it a little bit more, I think it's a, it's a, it's a game changer as well.

Look at your kids, right?

I look at my kids, they very rarely type unless they're playing games or whatever else it might be, but they always either text, sorry, voice, the text, whatever else.

Not even voice notes.

Like it's, it's voice to text.

Yeah.

And you've seen loads of capability, Speechify, whisper flow, there's loads of products out there.

Whether you use your own native stuff and all of the AIs, whether it's Claude or Gemini or ChatGPT, all have voice capability as well.

Yeah.

And.

And then I guess the kind of last question on the AI topic, I guess more even bigger question, what's your general take on the kind of.

Look, I know you listen to a lot of podcasts like me, that you can listen to one and it's like the world's going to end, you can listen to another one and it's going to be the best thing ever.

And Utopia and all this kind of stuff.

Where do you sit on that kind of barometer at the moment the world.

Will continue continuously change.

Like the job I started out in or the departments we had back in president office virgin back to a very early point no longer exist.

I was working in data processing department doing things that just don't happen anymore.

It will continue to evolve.

Everyone talks about the jobs that are going away.

Not enough people are talking about the jobs that are not yet invented that our kids and their kids will do going forward.

I mean, you know, prompt engineer or context Engineer isn't a role that you go and see in in many places just yet.

I'm a big follower and fan of Aaron Levy at Box.

He always writes really cool things about enterprise technology and the shifts in technology that's going on.

He's now hiring folk that can manage agentic teams inside their organization.

Not seen that on the job list recently at all.

And I think we'll all start to have to have those things going forward.

Our risks and controls that we have for managing all of these AIs will change dramatically going forward.

So whilst we're all now coding or vibe coding or agentic engineering or whatever the buzzwords will be, we start to have people that will then support and understand and challenge all those things.

Tom Hoad over at Howden had a really good post a few days ago talking about exactly this.

So I think there's again loads of roles that we'll see evolve that does the checks and balances and much more as we see insurance evolve.

And so one last thing, we always talk in and down.

We're always talking about cost savings or efficiencies or whatever else.

Not enough people talking about how we solve for the protection gap.

How do we make insurance more accessible, cheaper, more relevant for people based on context.

So the example I gave in my.

I called it Nigel Health OS is a bit of a joke, but I believe we were creating personalized software or solutions for individuals.

Why can't that be insurance?

Yeah, yeah, yeah, that's.

There's so much opportunity that now the personalization thing across all areas is going to be the.

Is going to be a Ray Wagon over at Constellation, I think years ago that he called mass personalization for a segment of one.

It stuck with me for years.

I still love it to this day.

I think it to be true.

Like if everyone gets to 60%, that's common.

What about that last 40 or 30 or whatever it might be that actually is unique to Mark or to Nigel or to whoever else.

Yeah.

And so I wanted to.

You touched a bit on the insuretech thing which is obviously kind of certainly where a lot of your reputation came from.

From in more recent times.

What.

What.

Sure you're gonna.

It feels like insuretech kind of gone has been through a couple of.

Kind of couple of phases really.

I mean there was the kind of the big disruption part that you.

That you mentioned before.

Then there's.

It kind of seems like it's evolved to be a little bit.

A little bit in a kind of different place right now.

You mean what.

And there's kind of some massive success stories, but then lots of business businesses that probably failed to get to reach the heights that maybe they were expected.

So what's your kind of take on where that.

That part of the industry is right now super important.

And again, back to the optimist in me.

I often describe the very early years and even where we are now is they had a fundamental impact on changing people's mindsets for what we could do.

Because insurance is always big transformation.

Can't do it.

Hey, this worked in Fintech.

Looked at all these folks like Revolut or whoever else that came out and built huge businesses that got fed up waiting for some of the incumbent banks to move as quickly as they wanted to.

So they just went, you know what, let's go do it ourselves.

That worked for a transactional nature bank or whatever else.

It clearly didn't work in the way that was expected that they would replicate from an insurance perspective.

And the folks like Daniel is shy over at Lemonade or Root or Kin in the US and Metromarket.

There's so many folks that were going to disrupt the way things had always been done.

Insurance is a lot harder, I think generally a lot harder.

And built on community, which I really like.

And I think lots of those businesses have been very successful but also found it really hard to go.

Actually distribution is tough, especially when you are interacting on the PNC retail side with someone once a year or if you're trying to get into the brokerage world, well, they're owned by the people that have built brilliant broker relationships like the Aeons or Marshes or Willis's of the world.

So we weren't going to change that overnight.

And I think Time has now proven that the B2C model was possible is also hard.

So there's a good few successes out there.

In my mind.

Lemonade is a massive success because it started to change the narrative.

I think Daniel's a phenomenal orator.

I've always said this.

Tell us the story that insurance is broken.

There's elements of that truly are but they've created partnerships, they've bought people, they've done some really, really cool things, they've launched into new markets, they have a brilliant brand.

So the whole insurance brand thing needs solving sometimes too or perception thing needs solving.

The second wave was very much in the B2B2C or B2B2B space of Insuretex that came along and said we're going to work with the insurers and help go change how they do things by leveraging net new technology that isn't legacy or take forever to go install.

And we've come from industry, so it was domain experts plus cool technology that would then go do pilots and then launch into new phases.

So I've really enjoyed that phase because actually they are working with rather than trying to disrupt.

So they are disrupting from within.

But you also saw culturally, the very early phase was everyone had an innovation team that was a satellite area or the edge or at the reception desk as you walked in.

And culturally it started to get people to think differently about what we could do in insurance as opposed to we've always done it that way.

We shouldn't do it any differently before or in any other new way.

So that was really good.

This new way saw those innovation teams, I think pretty much all disbanded and those innovation teams now exist, but they exist in line of business.

You've got innovation and underwriting, innovation in claims, innovation in service and they've gone back to decision makers, money and problem rather than being isolated.

So it's just evolved and there's some great successes out there.

Hyper exponential is Amrit and Team Richard, really, really great folks.

Another investment from Andreas and Horowitz with further A and they're continuing to go.

So I think we're going to see lots, lots more of those things now.

And there's other folks that have gone from the very early days and pivoted time and time again.

You look at like what Cytoria did with Richard and Juan acquired by Applied and team.

You look at Consouris with Andy Yeoman.

There's really, really cool folks out there that have done things and other folks like Lacquer that I've been involved with for years on a B2C side that they've got a different approach.

They've done lots of stuff with partnerships.

So there's really, really, really cool things that have gone on.

The other B2C of course was Flock that got acquired by Admiral recently.

So I look at all that phase and go it was hard yards.

Not everyone made it loads of success still going.

The common theme across all of this is kind of around.

Change.

The evolving insurance space.

Like the.

Even in the kind of nearly 20 years I've been working in kind of tech into insurance, it's like what it is now is, is completely different.

So with the next kind of phase over the next few years being likely to be even the pace of change being even quicker.

What, what's your kind of view on the kind of people leading insurance technology change, even the businesses as a whole and like what, what that needs to look like and what good kind of leadership looks like at the moment in the industry?

I think there's.

You've got to break it into two bits though.

It depends on what type of organization you are as well.

If you're a 300 year old incumbent versus a brand new MGA, that's Tech First.

They're very different types of organizations.

So if I go to the incumbents, you're not starting with a blank sheet of paper.

You're starting with a legacy debt all over the place.

Whether it's technology, culture, process and all of those don't change on a dime.

Living in the US for too long, they literally take an amount of time to change.

And sometimes that amount of time is the amount of time it is.

It literally is.

You're not turning off 28 years of legacy overnight.

So from an incumbent's perspective, you've got to be.

You've got to manage through that evolution and give people the right tools, capability and culture to get things done and try new things and whatever else.

But you've also got to keep the lights on.

You've also got to report, to regulate.

You've also got this obligation to pay a claim or whatever else it might be as an insurer.

So it's not a easy or straightforward piece.

So your distinction between CIOs and CTOs, if they exist in organizations or chief innovation officers, is going to be really, really interesting.

The evolution of the chief AI officer or the Chief Data officer.

Like you remember the phases when we had everyone was a chief Digital officer and there was a massive debate going do companies need chief Digital officers or not?

And for me that was always a intervention role because you'd get in course correct where you want them to be and get out again.

Yeah.

Whereas chief data should be there forever.

Data is not going anywhere.

None of this cool AI or agentic stuff can be built on shaky data.

So that that is a fundamental core role.

And then forward looking stuff.

Have you got enough people that are Looking over the horizon, working out what's relevant, what's interesting, what's usable and what's shiny but not useful.

And there's going to be plenty of that.

We've seen it all throughout the years.

We went through the blockchain phase, which was really interesting.

Great technology.

We'll be here probably in 20 or 50 years time.

But in the insurance world, I still feel was a solution.

Looking for a problem that only a very few and small number of people had a true understanding of.

Whereas the difference with AI is everyone gets it, everyone understands it.

Cloud, everyone gets it, everyone understands it.

It's easily accessible, easy to relate to and actually easily applicable inside my organization.

Yeah, those, some of those roles that you mentioned, I sort of talked about this quite a bit, is like the Chief Data Officer, CEO, cio, cto.

Do you see those roles merging or do you see them kind of still saying very, very separate?

Because obviously the Chief Data and AI officer, I think that's kind of fairly, fairly commonplace, but certainly seen quite a few examples of where people are looking to kind of combine them.

But I'm not never sure whether that's just they combine them because it's.

They lump them all together.

There's not necessarily a strategic reason for that or whether actually strategically it makes sense.

You go back to my Deloitte days here.

We used to do a lot of operating model work to go how should we organize for the future?

And I do think this needs to continuously evolve.

And I've seen CIO report to COO.

I've seen CIO report to CEO.

I don't often see enough CIOs with board seats and board responsibility.

We come back to boards in a minute as well.

CDOs are interesting.

They are either into the CIO or COO.

We didn't talk about CISO super important in all this or chief risk because is risk just business risk or is it now technology risk as well?

You will have seen the case probably 18 months ago now.

I think it was Moderna in Switzerland had merged the HR and it functioned, but it fell under hr, not the other way around.

And their rationale for that was rolling out AI to thousands of people is actually a human problem, not a technology problem.

And I kind of agree with that.

Like there's the collaboration between HR or chief people and CIO function or technology function is super, super important.

Like all of our roles internally have all changed.

Jackie Cannys are Chief People officer or was.

She's now our chief people and AI enablement person.

So it's really important to go actually.

As the operating model changes, so does people's responsibilities.

Her responsibility is making sure that the 30 or so thousand folks in service now don't just sell the tools, but are actually using them day in, day out inside their roles, whether you're on go to market or engineering or whatever else it might be.

So enablement is absolutely critical.

So there's no point having an a star technology capability if the enablement and ability to get into the field, whether it's brokers, claims, claims, suggestions, whatever else is not there.

Yeah.

So it's a massive collaboration between all of those groups, but aligned around a single mission that says we're going to become AI native or AI first or use it where it matters and not where it doesn't.

Yeah.

I think, I think that what you said about the, the evolving part of it is that that's really key, isn't it?

I think people often try to kind of plug a hole, then forget about it and it's kind of sorted.

But that kind of.

The firms that do it best are always kind of evolving and looking at how they change that rather than just.

I think that's the best bit.

Like if we constantly change, it will never get boring or tired.

Yeah.

But also evolves for what we're seeing in the market.

I'd argue that the risk function was a secondary thing in many cases that didn't look closely enough or frequently enough at technology and before that machine learning.

But now AI and I would say they have an active role in the debate today and way more active than they had probably six or 12 months ago.

Because people are sitting there going, well, how do we know that this hasn't drifted or done something you shouldn't have done or use information or whatever else it might be?

And that goes all the way up to the board as well.

Like if you go back five years, I would say the board didn't have enough people that understood cyber risk.

I would say to you today, the board doesn't have enough people that are able to question and probe the AI risk inside the organization.

Right.

We're coming towards the end.

We could go on forever.

But the.

I've got some quick fire questions for you.

Go for it.

Brand or company you most admire and why?

I'm a marketer's dream.

It's a nightmare.

Whoop.

Peloton Fury road.

I. I could go on forever and ever.

I know you're into fitness and stuff like that.

I love.

I've got the room.

I love it.

Do you use it much?

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

All the time.

Yeah, yeah.

To be fair, the AI, I think it's, like, still in beta, isn't it?

But that.

That is actually getting really, really good, I think.

Go back to evolution.

Their first version of it with OpenAI was rubbish with bells on.

Their current version is really interesting.

Like, it's getting really clever about what they're up to.

So I'm with you.

I love.

Whoop.

I'm an engineer at heart.

I love cars.

I go for Porsche.

Yeah, amazing.

Okay, cool.

Next one is.

What's the one piece of advice you were given I wish you were given when you were first started out?

Careers aren't linear.

Like, it's never a straight line.

I learned that from Sean and Simon when doing delivery, that you have a start point and end point, but it's never a straight line.

And with careers, it's okay to change, go backwards, go up, go down.

I think we're all.

We're all.

Lots of people are obsessed with always just going up, but actually, sometimes it's best to pause, reflect, go back, deal with all the other things that are going on in your life and then keep moving forward.

Yeah, yeah.

Definitely agree with that.

If you could swap jobs with anyone for the day, who would it be and why?

Oh, man.

Right now, I think Dario Anthropic is at the pinnacle of what's going on in the world of AI, which is super interesting.

But if I had a choice.

Barack Obama, hectic job that.

Well, but just.

But again, it's a pool rather than a push.

Yeah.

One of the people I massively respect is Barack Obama.

Yeah.

So.

And I used to joke that on Twitter he followed me, so it was like one of those things.

My wife doesn't follow me on Twitter, but my.

But Barack Obama did, so Barack Obama.

Is that actually true?

Yeah, we're true.

I don't use Twitter anymore, unfortunately.

But that's a claim to fame, definitely.

I think he follows, like, a gazillion people, but they are one of them.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

I mean, well, best.

Are you a big reader?

I read more articles and listen to podcasts and videos and books these days,.

But I thought you're going to say that.

So.

So I obviously follow most people.

If they've seen you before, they know you do a kind of.

What is it?

Listen.

That's the one.

Yeah.

I always keep an eye on it.

So we'll change book to kind of favorite podcasts that you listen to at the moment.

Oh, wow.

That's actually.

You could have more than one if you want.

If you've got a couple, I listen to so many.

And back to your point earlier, because if you listen to the all in, you get one view that's, you know, biased one way.

Listen to pivot.

It's the other side of the coin.

Richard Garner, Hyper Exponential introduced me to the Daily AI News Brief, which I really enjoy.

I go for a morning walk, I listen to that.

It's 25 minutes, nice and easy.

I listen to, I generally listen to a lot and I try to get quite a rounded view.

Is it mainly kind of business related or put like personal related stuff rather than kind of light hearted stuff?

Yeah, it's always business.

I've almost given up watching tv.

Like there's so much stuff that's going on.

Do you watch, do you listen to your podcast or you watch them on like gta?

A bit of both.

If I'm sat at my desk, I might have Harry stabbings in 20 VC like his new one with Rory Oduskor and Jason from Sasta I love because it's actually debate and Rory o' Driscoll from I think it's Lightspeed.

I get the venture name wrong.

But Rory brilliant.

Openly said he comes on the podcast and often changes his mind and I love that because he actually the day having a debate with Jason and Harry going, look, this is what I came in thinking about but I've actually left going, yeah, your views.

Right.

So what's that podcast called at 20.

VC he does a. Harry Stebbings does a podcast.

He's.

He runs Europe VC and so much more.

But I'll send you the link.

It's a phenomenal podcast.

Amazing.

What do you think is the most important leadership skill or trait?

Oh, I always lead with humor.

I genuinely, I've solved all my problems in life, good, bad or ugly with humor.

It's a good diffusion of lots of situations, whether they're tense, terse or otherwise.

One of ServiceNow's values for me that resonates really, really well is hungry but humble and I genuinely.

You can see it everywhere you go.

I have another phrase that I won't repeat but hungry but humble sums it up beautifully.

Yeah, yeah, the humor thing I can definitely resonate with that.

I always joke if kind of like start a meeting with someone and you make the joke and they don'.

Laugh.

I'm.

I'm kind of a bit screwed.

Yeah, it can be hard, right?

It can be hard, but I think actually it's a great.

We're all.

We're all the same at the end, we're all trying to get to the same point and there'll always be tough conversations, but we're all trying to get to the same thing.

Yeah.

Famous person that you look up to or admire.

I've said Barack Obama already, haven't I?

I really like him.

I like.

What is it you like about this?

What do you like about Obama?

What.

What is it about him?

Apart from the fact he followed you on Twitter?

Apart from Twitter.

I just felt there was no scandal.

He was a phenomenal orator.

He was funny, he was humorous.

He treated people the same, whether it was walking into a.

A diner and giving a, you know, one of the workers a fist bump to fellow presidents and whatever else.

So I think he came back to the hungry but humble type individual.

I generally think he's like world class and then some.

Yeah, I mean, I'm like, I'm not into US politics, but I don't know what it is about me.

You just, you just feel like you kind of want to be his.

His friend.

You just want to be his mate.

We could definitely do a bit of that in the uk.

I think we need a coffee with Obama at some point.

That'd be a good podcast.

Like if you could put people together for dinner.

Like there's six folks around the table.

Who'd you have, like alive or dead?

Not for today, but that's.

Maybe we bring that up no more.

Yeah.

And then the final one.

What's the best thing about working in insurance?

The people you've heard me mention, name after name after name is people.

And I go back to Tracy's article that she wrote from a on a few weeks back.

She said, I'm sorry, I work in insurance.

And I featured on the.

My newsletter because I had the similar issues.

Obviously she's at Aon, she's at a kids school fair and no one's coming up to her because it's insurance and it's a, it's a brand that at that age you don't recognize.

Yeah, I did it and I was working for Google and of course everyone's going, oh, it's Google.

Yeah.

And I remember writing an article 11 years ago about brand and defending the insurance brand because I could almost name every UK retail insurance brand and their strap line to go.

You know, whether it's like Tesco's, every little accounts, like every insurance brand has got their brand and their slogan.

And it was the Google thing that got people to come to my table at the careers fair, not the fact I work with insurance, but it was then the curiosity to go, oh, you work with insurance?

Sarah Kacanski When I was doing insurtech, insiders always used to say, but we've got self driving cars and drones.

What have you got?

We have a really cool story to tell.

And that was Tracy's point, to be fair.

Like, do we need a rebrand to actually help people, level set what we're doing in insurance?

Nothing moves without us.

And I'm a big believer of getting financial services, not just insurance, into the education system really early on.

So kids come out going, I know what a bank account is, I know what a loan is, I know what insurance is for, I know what's mandatory versus what's nice to have and what they actually do.

Not going to social media or TikTok for advice, which kills me.

Yeah.

So which is what you see today.

So there's work to do.

Yeah, I mean, certainly it's.

Whenever I'm kind of talking to people from outside of insurance, the amount of time you mention an insurance brand, you think everyone knows and then they kind of say two and it's like Footsie 100 business or something like that.

It's billions and billions and billions.

And is that like you look, you just have to.

Our stories are brilliant.

You look at what Hiscocks are up to over the years with their brand or you look at what how they'd have done to get grain out of Ukraine and ensure that.

You look at what Lloyds of London is doing.

Honestly, we are in the best industry on the planet.

Nothing happens without us.

What a way to finish.

Well, look, thanks for making some time to have a chat.

We arranged this about 72 hours ago, so after trying.

After trying for three years, I think so.

Really great to see.

See you.

Thank you so much.

Absolute pleasure.

If people want to connect, obviously, I know you're pretty active on LinkedIn.

Definitely check out the newsletter UK for people to reach out, connect.

I'm sure lots of people anyway, but look, we've got plenty more episodes coming.

We have got a miniseries coming up soon on the underwriting front as well, which.

Which everyone's looking forward to or certainly I am.

So we will catch you again next time.

Cheers.

That's it for this episode of beyond the Desk.

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