Susan Howell is a former Senior Special Agent who spent 26 years working for both the IRS and the Department of Justice’s Office of the Inspector General. Her career included working many cases, including finance-related crimes.

 At age 50, with a lifetime of money-knowledge under her belt, Susan retired and stepped into her next act. She founded MoneyMaestra where she teaches people a holistic approach to heal their relationship with money and attain financial freedom.

How "Charlie's Angels" influenced my life. What it was like to "live Miami Vice." How we get to create the life we want. Why I am so passionate about creating financial freedom.

www.moneymaestra.com

We were arresting to pretty high ringleaders of narcotics trafficking organization here and tied to Colombia. And in one day we did three, two or three simultaneous search warrants. I think that was the day I found 10s of 1000s of dollars stuffed in curtains. We seized bank accounts, we seized vehicles. And I literally said to myself, it's like I'm living Miami, Bice today.

Hey, this is Achim Nowak, executive coach, and host of the MY FOURTH ACR podcast. If life is a five act play, how will you spend your FOURTH ACT? I have conversations with exceptional humans who have created bold and unexpected FOURTH ACTS, listen, and to be inspired. And please rate us and subscribe on whatever platform you are listening on. Let's get started. Great conversation and I didn't record it. Obviously, whatever chit chat we do now was not part of it. I am just delighted to welcome Susan Howell to the my fourth act podcast, Susan spent 26 years working for the federal government with six of those years at the Internal Revenue Service, and 20 at the Department of Justice. Suzanne was a federal agent investigating money related crimes at the age of 50. With a lifetime of money, knowledge, Susan retired and founded money, my estra I love the alliteration in that. Where she teaches people a holistic approach to heal their relationship with money and attain financial freedom. We could spend hours just on that last sentence, and I promise you, we're gonna talk about financial freedom. But first of all, welcome to the show.

Thank you very much. I came, I'm very happy to be here.

I'm delighted that we get to have this conversation. You, in many ways, are living the dream that some people have, but they don't know how to get there, which is I retired at 50. And then the question is, what the heck do I do with my life after 50? We'll get into all of that. But before we start, when you were a young girl or teenager growing up, what was your sense of who you wanted to be in the world?

That's an interesting question. I think my sense of who I want it to be started even younger than that, I It started in my, I would say preteen years, I lived on a pond and near the woods. And so I spent much of my childhood in nature. So I knew that I wanted to stay connected to the natural world. And the girls in my neighborhood and I were a little obsessed with Charlie's Angels. And he played Detective regularly. So I think two of the ideas I had when I was young was I want to be out in nature. And I really liked this idea of detective work. And my life unfolded so that I got to fulfill both of those childhood desires or dreams.

So which of the three angels did you like best? Or did you identify with most?

Well, I was always Sabrina because she was quote, unquote, this smart one. And I in my neighborhood was we played school, I was the teacher. So the girls always picked and I always was Sabrina. So and I liked her name. So I would say identified the most with Sabrina.

Based on what you've created in your life. That doesn't surprise me at all. You might say that now. You chose a career with the government. 26 years, a lot of it as a federal agent. I'll play devil's advocate, Charlie's Angels that's all very sexy and glamorous, but we don't always think of the government as being sexy and glamorous, what led you to seeking to work for the government?

Well, I initially went to a job fair, in my, I think, last year of college, and I had put in an application with the IRS, and nothing happened. So I ended up working for the State Attorney's Office for a while as a paralegal. And then the IRS called me. I started my career in the civil side as a Revenue Officer, and I was literally knocking on people's doors, collecting taxes. And I was all of let's see, how old was I, when I started 23 years old. And I said, I am armed with a pen and my mind, I collected taxes. And so I saw from a very young age, and in my early in my career, how much it didn't matter what your wealth level was, people were struggling with managing their money and managing taxes. And then I actually was attempted to be bribed when I was a Revenue Officer. And I reported that to the people I was supposed to report it to, and the IRS and based on that, in my sort of little, you know, undercover work. I applied as an agent, and I had the backup of the agents that were already there with the IRS. And that's how I became an agent. Initially, I did not know that was what I would do. Although, of course, I always had that, you know, Charlie's Angels tune in the back of my head. So I worked for the IRS for two years. And then the IRS was downsizing. And I switched to the Department of Justice Office of the Inspector General, which is where I've finished the rest of my career, the last 20 years of my federal agent career.

Since we talked about collecting taxes and investigating money crimes, where my mind goes, when you were a young girl growing up, was your family financially secure? Did your family experienced financial stresses like what was the relationship in your household to money?

I actually grew up poor. We had a roof over our head wasn't a very nice roof. It was a dilapidated duplex when something was broken, it usually did not get fixed. You know, we lived in Connecticut. So it got cold in the winters. But we did not have central heat, we had a gas stove. So to say our house was cold in the winter was an understatement. And we just had enough to get by, and barely get by, you know, no real extras, no traveling. And I watched my mother struggle. She did not work. She did not drive. My father had some issues with alcohol. A lot of our money was spent on that. I just realized at a young age that no way was this going to be my life. And I equated money with choice from a very young age. That's why I say I started before I was a teenager, because I really think these thoughts of I don't want this to be my life happened before I was even 10.

Because I have never worked for the government. And when I hear federal agent, I think of crime shows I think of crime movies. I want to invite you to tell us maybe two stories, maybe one give us a glimpse of get a think of a moment when you went. This is why I love this work. This is why this work was really cool. But maybe also one where you go. This is why this work is hard, or this is what I don't like about this work.

First of all, it was a very exciting career. And although I did work, a lot of money crimes. I also work narcotics, I was on loan to the Drug Enforcement Agency for about three and a half or four years, including while I was pregnant. So that was an interesting whole thing right there. And then I also the Department of Justice inspector general specializes in public corruption cases, which also it's all tied to money ultimately, is tied to everything. But I would say One day, I was on the High Intensity Drug trafficking area Task Force in Miami, Florida. And you know, kind of where drugs are very, very prevalent. And we did a day that started probably at six o'clock in the morning as our first search warrant. We had multiple search warrants going, we were arresting to pretty high ringleaders of narcotics trafficking organization here and tied to Colombia. And in one day, we did three, two or three simultaneous search warrants. I think that was the day I found 10s of 1000s of dollars stuffed in curtains. We seized bank accounts, we seized vehicles and I literally said to myself, it's like I'm living Miami, Bice today. And was it a little I don't like to use the word scary because when you're in the moment and you're properly trained, and you're working with your team, you're just executing the plan. And fear doesn't really come in, but afterwards you look back and you say, Wow, most people don't get to experience the day, I just got to experience and everyone was arrested. You know, everybody went to jail, we got the money, we froze the bank accounts. And it was just one of those moments where I was just so proud to work for the government in the United States of America.

We've all had those moments when we go, why the heck am I doing this, or this is hard, or this is draining. And this is not about telling war stories. But if you think about what was maybe hard, or what was what could wear you down about there,

I think what could wear you down is what people don't see is, you know, people think of the federal agent job is very glamorous. But what they don't think about is all backup paperwork, we have to do so much paperwork, as a federal agent, some of the reports I wrote were 2030 pages long, and they had to be cross referenced, I had to have all my evidence in order. So that is what most people don't think about when you're watching it on television. But we have to do a lot of paperwork to backup the physical Streetwork. And that would be the part I can't say that I didn't like it because writing a report is, you know, satisfying its own way. But if there was too much of something was too much paperwork.

For me, writing those reports would be absolute torture. This is about me, not about you. I've had the pleasure of hearing you give a wonderful Peter Bucha talk in Miami, where he talked a little bit about your personal story. And I know that you retired at 50. And I know sometimes when you work for the government, you can make that happen. That's what I'm wondering about that. And I know your interest in creating financial freedom. And maybe this is an academic question. But what was your goal to retire as young as possible? Or was your goal to retire with with financial freedom? So you didn't have to worry about where the paycheck came from?

That's interesting. So as an agent, you must retire by 57. That's just a requirement. So I always knew that the oldest I would be 57 when I retire. But I and this is a shout out to Alan Berkowitz. If you're out there when we were 23. Starting with the IRS, Alan said to me, do you know Susan that if we start investing in our retirement now, we could retire at 50 and being millionaires. And I was like, thanks. I mean, we were 23. We didn't have you know, anything to speak of. I was living in an apartment with probably two girls at that point. And I took Alan i, we kind of almost like challenged each other. And I was going to invest in my retirement either way, because I really was already on my path to financial freedom at a young age. But I just took that advice to heart and I really, really concentrated on investing and investing in a way that it became second nature, I call it the pay yourself. First it came off the top of my paycheck, I never even saw the money. So I started investing at such a young age. And it was automatically being deducted that I started to acquire wealth early with basically no skin off my back. So I wasn't sure at it was going to be 50 Until I was probably well into my 40s. And then, you know, then it became a goal. But I knew definitely I would work no longer than 57. And then I would play it by ear as I got closer to the golden age because in law enforcement in federal law enforcement, you can retire at 50 As long as you have age 50 and 20 years of experience. And I knew I would have both. So it was always there. But then as it came closer, I determined, yes, I'm walking out the door two weeks after my 50th birthday, which is exactly what I did.

I just want to celebrate the little moment when you're talking about Alan whispering that to you. And I want to celebrate the power of people saying things like that, too. As I remember. This was over 23 years ago, I got my first big corporate job to a corporate training and I was going What the heck am I doing with my life? Is this right for me. And the first week, I was setting the bar in Manhattan after training. And the woman who was a very successful head of training development for blue chip, Wall Street firm actually said You know, I believe you in every seven years completely changing my life. She said several years ago I left Paris came to New York to have this job and I feel as seven year change coming up. And I want to relate this to financial freedom. Because what that comment and then we just chatted, but that comment let me know is I can change my life when I want to. You know whatever I do now is just for now and there's something else that was like a mental liberation and having it supported by financial assets opposite of course. I just want to share that because you reminded me of it. I love

that story. And I love that we can. So many times we get caught in our own head, and oh, I can't do this or I can't do that. Yes, you can. It comes with the thought first it comes in the belief of yourself. And really the only person that dictates our life is ourself. And I love that to me, that's ultimate choice. Liberation. Yes, of course, we have to work in constraints of paying our bills and but we we get to create the life we choose. And I find that highly liberating.

All right, so let's take that and relate it to the choices you've made. Susan. As we're recording, you know, our listeners, you're listening to a conversation, but I see Susan, she's sitting in a beautiful room. There's a almost a stereotypically beautiful Miami background with a lush gardens in the pool. And I, I assume that was a choice. But when you retired at 50, because some people don't know what to do next. But did you know that you wanted to start a financial audit called a financial literacy business? And please correct it, but money my stroke? Did you know that already, or did that emerge at that

time? I knew it on some level, because I retired the same year, my son graduated from high school, and will was not being taught financial literacy in school. He was being taught at home, but he was not being taught at school. So when I was still a federal agent, I went to the principal of his Charter School, and said, Would you be okay with me teaching a financial literacy class workshop for the juniors and seniors? And he was like, yes, but we can't pay you. I was like, that's okay. You don't need to pay me I want my son's, my son's one of those kids. So I taught this, I don't remember if it was an hour and a half, two hours, not sure, maybe an hour and a half. And it was through to an auditorium full of kids, juniors and seniors. And they had so many questions, they were so interested, and the light bulb went off. I was like, when I retire, I am going to teach financial literacy, financial freedom, financial wellness, and help people understand that this can be done. And the younger you start, the better. So yes, it I would say probably about a year, year and a half before I retired, the lane was starting, starting to grow. And then I often knew that I would consult for defense attorneys that was going to be my sort of, as soon as I retired, let's make some money right out of the box. And I also consult for defense attorneys, and I can be an expert witness and help them with discovery and interviewing witnesses. So I knew I had that, which I did as soon as I retired. And then within the next six months or a year I started developing my financial literacy business.

What I just love about the story, you told me you want us to spell it out, even though it may be obvious. But nobody had asked you to teach that class at school, you had an instinct, you had an inkling, the entrepreneur and you are the risk taker said, I can just ask and let me do it. And by doing it, you discovered so much more about yourself and what you wanted to do with your life. And that's the power of that story, right? Because we so often talk ourselves out of it by saying I don't think they would want that class. Right? And you said, No, you offered it.

Yeah. And, and one of the first one I did retire, I first my business was under another name, which I won't even say because it was difficult to pronounce. And it wasn't the right name. And we changed it to money Maestro. But when I first retired, I went to a friend of mine who was a school teacher in a school for underprivileged kids. And I said, you know, what do you think about me teaching a course on financial literacy here, I'll do it for free. I want to get my experience, and I want to help kids. And so that principal, let me come in and teach these eighth grade gifted students. And we had so much fun together. I came in, I think, three different times to teach different segments of the course. We were dancing. I had music going, we were doing examples. We had so much fun. And the teacher said to me, Susan, they light up when I tell them that you're coming again. And the light bulbs just started going off and the bells started ringing and I was like, This is what I am meant to do. I feel at home in front of the classroom teaching this and so it just sort of cemented what I was already thinking. And then I just ran with it from there.

A word from your sponsor. That's me. I invite you to go to the website associated with this podcast www.my Fourth active.com You will find other equally inspiring conversation with great humans. And you will also learn more about the my fourth act mastermind groups where cool people figure out how to chart their own fourth acts. Please check it out. And now back to the conversation. Now, we may have a whole bunch of listeners who have gone who like you had the idea for business, but they may think, Well, I'm not a business person, or they may think, but just like Susan, I had a regular job for 25 years. And that was easy. I knew what I had to do and the Patriot came in. But when we're an entrepreneur where we, we want to serve people, but we need to find the people that want to be served by us, right? How did you step into now having to generate business and grow a business?

Yeah, and that's a great question. Because as much as I know about money, which I know a lot about money, I never was my own business person. But I will say this, from the time I was a young child, I had this entrepreneurial spirit spirit, my sister used to have yard sales. And I would say, Can I set up a booth, I want to sell some of my things. I was, you know, pet sitting, babysitting, whatever I could do whatever somebody wanted to pay me to do, I colored somebody's easter eggs in exchange for chocolate chip cookies. I mean, I had like, all kinds of things going on when I was little. So I knew I had the ability. And this is the key that I would say, for everyone out there is you have to believe in yourself. Like I would say, you know, I'm a smart woman. I am a passionate woman, I can figure this out. And then I went to what do I need to do to better myself to understand entrepreneurship. And I took a biz hack course on digital marketing, I got a coach. And I started learning, I read voraciously, I spoke to other entrepreneurs, and I took a risk on me. That's what I did. And then as you progress, your business you learn, and you learn from your mistakes, too. I mean, I've made a bunch of mistakes. And I don't want people out there to think like, oh, this, you just go straight through without making mistakes. I've made a lot of mistakes. But the mistakes helped me grow and are just a direction shift for me. I've found this to be an extremely liberating process, but also you have to be dedicated to it. You know, as you know, as an entrepreneur, I

just want to for the listeners, I want to just support everything you said is when I I'm on my second business, I sold my first business I've done very well as a business owner. But you know, when I started my first business, I, I put myself into a business think tank to learn from other business owners, because I really felt like I didn't know anything. I had a business coach, I, I got support, you know, and I could only do it. Because I had been poor for a long time. And I had just turned the corner where I was earning more money than I need to live on. So I could invest in myself. And that was really important. Would you speak some more about the importance of investing in yourself because you talked about investing in other things with money. But what does investing in you look like for you?

100%, I invest in myself, because as I say, I used to say, when I was younger, I knew the ticket out was me, I was the ticket out. So if I was going to be the ticket out and going to be the Director of my life, then I had to invest in myself. So for me investing is, like I said, I got a coach, but also I read so much I read some of the great authors, especially in the areas that I'm interested in that I want to want to learn about my network. I am so curious and so inquisitive about people, to me. Like I say, I could never get bored, I find life to be just this great adventure. And so I want to learn from others. So to me investing for me and not everybody's as social as I am not everybody wants to be out there networking that works for me if you're not as social, do it online, do virtual, do whatever works for you. And then the other thing is find what brings you joy. And what brings me joy is nature and being with the people I love and travel. And so I'm going to Sweden in five days. So that's how I invest in myself. I takes some of this money that I've been able to have because of the way I practice with my money and I travel. And then when you travel it bills, you meet new people, you grow new experiences, your mind opens. So I invest in myself through travel, through reading through self care, through spending time with the people I love and immersing myself in nature whenever possible, including turning my yard into basically a pollinator sanctuary.

I want to dig a little more about me We play around with the word freedom because you, you support people and find financial freedom. You created it for yourself, you know, early on that was in your consciousness. But other freedoms are mental freedom, emotional freedom, because there are all these other prisons we create for ourselves. Because I think there are people who have financial freedom, but they're afraid of losing money, and they don't get to enjoy any of it. So on the surface, they have financial freedom, but it's fear based and they hoard it. So could you talk a little bit about what all the other freedoms are, and then we can talk some more about what we do with it.

100%, to me, financial freedom is just one little piece of the puzzle. The freedom that I have, is the freedom that I know. And I'll call it for me, it's in touch with the divine or in touch with the you know, the the Spirit inside of me, that doesn't have $1 tag on it doesn't have a price tag on it, that is always accessible to me. So one of the things that I really work on, and I'm not talking about religion, I'm talking about whatever spiritually speaks to you. But that's what brings me peace. And listen, I could get I grew up pretty much dirt poor, I can survive on little to no money. And I know that about myself now, do I like having money? Of course I do. And may, you know, it makes me able to do many things that I like to do. But I don't have a fear based approach to money. Like, for instance, the markets are going down. When I look at my investments right now, it doesn't look very nice on paper. But you know what, I don't have fear based on that. I'm not going to touch that money now. So by the time I need that money, it'll come back up, I let it go. So to me, freedom and peace is something internal. And you see that all the time, wealthy people committing suicide, or going into debt or becoming addicted to drugs, or whatever it is, money doesn't bring happiness. money to me is just part of the puzzle. But the true happiness comes from inside. And also I believe in service. Like you have to be bigger than yourself. Part of what I do in my life. Yes, my business is a business and I want to make money. But I also want to serve. And in my nature world, I serve through that educating people on pollinator gardening, educating people on how much we need nature and letting people come and share my garden. But I have a definite internal compass on service. So a peace within and then shine your light out into the world. Just shine it out. And it will reflect back to you.

I have a bunch of thoughts just as I'm listening to you, but my first one's you mentioned pollinator gardening several times. And I realize I don't actually know what that is. Would you explain to me what pollinator gardening is?

Yes, pollinator gardening is you are creating a garden, you know that the thought is it can be created anywhere, but I did it in my yard. So I basically tore almost all my grass and then you plant mostly native, and I live in Miami, so native or Florida, flood friendly plants, and pollinators, butterflies, bees, dragonflies, ladybugs, birds, bats, all kinds of things. Anything that basically is going to take pollen from one place to another. And if we don't have pollinators, we will lose our food and we will lose ourselves. The world cannot survive without pollinators. So you plant the host plants for what they need, like caterpillars feed on certain plants. So you plant those host plants. And then you plant the nectar plants for the butterflies and birds. And also I plant a lot of seed bearing plants for the birds. So basically, when wildlife when birds and butterflies and bees come to my yard, they have what they need, and they pollinate my yard. So it's this beautiful, natural cycle. And it brings me just an incredible amount of joy and peace. And I'm just putting it out there. My neighbor created an amazing organization called bound by beauty.org. It's online and she is a pollinator garden, or extraordinaire has taught me a lot of what I know. And between the two of us we've actually created what I call a green corridor between her garden and mine where you can actually see the pollinators flying between our gardens. So if you plan I say if you plan it, they will come.

Thank you for that beautiful and inspiring pollination. I completely get it if I can play with the concept of freedom some more because I would say is you have the freedom to devote time and energy to your pollinator garden. Okay, and other things that I happen to know about you because you've mentioned in conversations that you also you love estate sales. I do. Tell us what it is that you love about its sales, estate sales and why you go to

them? Okay, well, estate sailing and as much does started in my childhood. Again, I told you, we didn't have a lot of money. So my mother and my sister would drag me and my nephew and niece around to back then yard sales and garage sales, which is where we get a lot of our clothing a lot of our housewares. And usually when they give us a two bucks five bucks and say, If you come with us and behave, here's some money and you can buy some things. So I started buying gifts when I was a kid for like Christmas gifts at the state at yard sales. And then you know, then I had a career, but somewhere later in my career, I rediscovered it. And I had a boyfriend actually that went to this amazing yard sale in my neighborhood and was like Susan, you have to come and see this. And it reignited the spark. So then once I retired, and I believe, you know, we got into a deeper conversation about income, I believe in multiple streams of income. So I thought, you know, I'm really good at this. So why don't I take some of the things I buy, and sell them and make a profit. And I honed my skills just like I educated myself about the financial business, I educated myself about what's valuable. And I also have a very good sense about it. So I buy gifts, I buy my clothes, I buy jewelry, I buy things from my home, and I flipped some of it for a profit. So basically, I'm not spending any money at the sales, and I'm actually making money. And it's another stream of income for me. And I like to be attentive to the environment, and I am helping the environment by buying secondhand

is part of the I mean, I totally get that. First of all, I used to love thrift shopping like into like, how many things can I buy for $1? Back? Very satisfying. It's part of the excitement of estate sales that which will you walk into the unknown, and there's a bit of a gamble there. And there's a risk in what you buy. But that can be an incredible return on investment if you sort of trust your instincts and play it right. Is that part of the thrill?

Absolutely. And I have found things that I have bought for $5 and sold for 300, I have found things that I knew were valuable that I want to keep for a while. So I do a win win where I keep it for a year or two years or three years. And then I sell it and make a large profit, which is something I'm doing right now on an item I bought. And so this, to me, it all spills back to my belief in abundance, that there is enough, and that I can bank on me. And it just expands on the way I live my life. So it's exciting, it's fun, it's like going back in time. And I'm still looking at Kmart I'm gonna buy I'm gonna buy something for like $2. And it's going to be worth like 100,000. But I've recently bought something for I paid a lot of money for it, I paid close to 3000 for it. And I currently have it for sale for 19,000. So if I sell it, that's a pretty nice return on my money and on my wall for three years. So I got to enjoy it.

It sure is. You are a woman in your 50s. So you have a lot of life ahead of you. And you have the freedom to pretty much do whatever you damn want. So we're very curious about given that freedom, which is something that I think a lot of folks aspire to. And I'm not asking for a philosophical answer for everybody. Just for you, Susan, are there things that you would like to do more of in your life? Other things you've never done? But you will this is the time for me to explore those. Where are you instincts leading you around stuff you want to explore?

Great question. And when you said that, I'm like, Darn that. That is a nice way to live. I'm living the dream. I'm young enough, plenty young enough. And so one thing I'll say is I stay physically fit body mind spirit because I want to live a long time because I have a lot to do and a lot to accomplish and experience. So I take care of myself. That's one of the things I've spent, especially post retirement when I have a little bit more time although I am very busy post retirement but I take very good care of my health. That's one thing and I'm traveling, I am going to travel I'm going to see as much of the world as possible. And to hopefully learn from every place I go and hope that influence the person I become. I am going to love largely because I think love is really what the world needs more of and I am going to learn at There are so many things I want to learn some movies I want to see that I never had chance to see. So I'm just going to dive in to life.

I love that you said love large? That's what I hear. Yes. I'm curious, because you mentioned just in passing earlier that you know, when you grew up you your dad was an alcoholic that affected the family how you all grew up? Based on what you know now about life, if you had the chance to whisper some words of wisdom into the ears of young Suzanne, not to change her trajectory, but based on your current vantage point. What would you want her to know that might be helpful in life to her?

That it's all going to be all right.

And if you were to whisper some guidance to any of our listeners, who are thinking, I'd like to start my own business. But I'm a little scared. But I know that Susan Howell is doing it. What kind of wisdom? What guidance would you have for people who maybe have an idea for a business post having a regular job, but are afraid to get started? Well, I

would say one, you have to just believe in yourself just at gut level, believe in yourself, but then educate yourself. Financial, the financial business came easy to me because I basically spent my whole career investigating financial crimes, I started investing when I was young, I read money books, although I've been reading money, books my whole life. So I had a lot of experience to turn into a business. But again, I didn't know how to run a small business. So I educated myself. If you can afford a coach, get a coach. If you need help, ask for it. Go to networking events. Find a mentor. There's just so much reading I I can't say enough how find the books that will help you and read, read read. People have done this before we have and they have seated. So take the people that have succeeded and learn from them. And ask for feedback. And I'm going to say this too. Don't take things personally. Because when you start there are going to be naysayers. There are going there's going to be feedback that doesn't feel real good. But listen to that feedback, because maybe there's some glimmers and there are things you really need to hear. So don't expect people to just be patting you on the back saying great, great, great. Take in the feedback, hear it. Take what you need and leave what you don't. But be receptive to feedback, and learn from others. And if you can get a mentor get a mentor.

Well, thank you for the gift of this conversation. And because you are one of those helpers, and you have this fantastic business called Money extra. If anybody wants to learn more about what you're doing or study up on you, where do they look you up?

I would love for people to follow me on Facebook under money my Easter I think you can like my page, you can follow me on Instagram under money. maestre and if you go to money maestre.com Is my website with the programs and you know, I have specialty programs for women and youth separate programs on a regular basis. So those are two niche audiences that I'm very, very in tune with and would like to help, please check out money meister.com And very soon, I'm going to break into tick tock

All right, let's look forward to the Susan Howell tick talking away. But in the meantime, I thank you for this conversation and be well.

Thank you very much be well to Akeem

um, I like what you heard, please go to my fourth act.com And subscribe to receive my updates on upcoming episodes. Please also subscribe to us on the platform of your choice. Rate us give us a review and let us all create some magical fourth acts together. Ciao