In this episode of the Dementia Researcher podcast, guest host Dr Robyn Dowlen leads a fascinating exploration of the intersection of music, arts, and inclusivity in the context of dementia.

This episode features a trio of remarkable guests who have been instrumental in integrating dementia-friendly initiatives into the arts. Our guests are Holly Marland, Former Churchill Fellow and Music Therapist and dedicated advocate for community music projects; Dr Andy Northcott from the University of West London, who brings an academic perspective on the impact of arts and how to make events more accessible; and Liv McLennan from Sounds Better Community Interest Company, a pioneer in using music as a bridge to memory and joy.

The episode explores the inspiring stories behind our guests’ projects, ranging from festivals to operas, highlighting how they’re creating spaces where every note and performance opens doors to accessibility and understanding. Robyn, a researcher at the University of Manchester, also shares insights from her work on capturing the musical experiences of people with dementia. This episode is not just about the arts, but also about how these initiatives foster community, inclusivity, and a deeper understanding of dementia’s impact on lives. Tune in for an enlightening discussion that promises to be as informative as it is inspiring, showcasing the powerful role of arts in enhancing the lives of those living with dementia.

Links mentioned in the show:

• Sounds Better CIC – https://soundsbettercic.org/
• So Many Beauties – https://somanybeauties.org/
• The Geller Institute of Ageing and Memory – https://www.uwl.ac.uk/research/research-centres-and-groups/geller-institute-ageing-and-memory

A transcript of this show, links and show notes and profile on all our guests are available on our website at https://www.dementiaresearcher.nihr.ac.uk.

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We gratefully acknowledge the support of our funders: Alzheimer’s Association, Race Against Dementia, Alzheimer’s Research UK, Alzheimer’s Society, and the National Institute for Health and Care Research.

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- [Voice Over] The Dementia

Researcher podcast,

talking careers, research,

conference highlights,

and so much more.

- Hello and welcome to the

Dementia Researcher Podcast.

I am Dr. Robyn Dowlen and

it's my absolute pleasure

to be guest hosting today's show.

In this episode, we'll be exploring

the beautiful intersections

where music, arts,

and inclusivity meet, and how

they transform the experiences

of those living with Dementia.

Joining me are three fantastic guests

who've been at the forefront

of weaving Dementia friendly

initiatives into the rich

tapestry of the arts.

So we have Holly Marland,

who has enriched lives

through her commitment to

community music projects.

Dr. Andy Northcott from the

University of West London,

bringing us insights from

academia on the impact

of the arts and opera.

And Liv McLennan from

Sounds Better Community

Interest Company, an

innovator known for her work

in using music as a

bridge to memory and joy.

Together we'll uncover the stories

behind their inspiring projects

from festivals to operas

and discuss how their crafting

spaces where every note

opens doors to accessibility

and understanding.

And before we get

started, just to tell you

a little bit about me as well,

I'm a researcher at the

University of Manchester.

And in my work I look at how

we understand and capture

the in the moment musical experiences

of people with Dementia.

But that's enough from

me. Let's meet our guests.

(bright music)

So before we talk about

their individual work,

let's get some proper introductions.

Holly, can you start us off?

Can you tell us a bit about yourself?

- Well hi there Robyn.

It's lovely to be here.

I am a freelance professional musician

and a music for health specialist,

and I work in hospitals, care

homes and daycare settings

with people of all ages.

I've been learning and playing the kora,

which is a traditional West African harp.

And I've been playing

for about 13 years now,

supported by my amazing

teacher, Mohammed Saho

who lives in The Gambia.

And I started my musical

journey on the piano

and in the local church choir.

And I've always written music

and I've always felt that I wanted

to bridge the performer audience divide,

which I felt was always a

culturally imposed thing.

So I love working within

different communities

to co-create music and

to share ideas together.

- Thank you, Holly. That sounds wonderful.

I'm looking forward to

unpicking all of those things

with you later in the episode.

Andy, can I come to you next?

- Yeah, of course you can.

So I'm Dr. Andy Northcott.

I hate how long winded my job title is.

I'm a Senior Lecturer

of Sociology of Medicine

at the Geller Institute

of Ageing and Medicine

at the University of West London.

Takes a deep breath.

My main research is sort

of unrelated to the arts.

If anyone googles me,

you'll find lots of stuff

about hospitals.

For the last almost 10 years,

I've been doing ethnographies

of hospital care and observing

people living with Dementia

during unplanned acute

hospital admissions.

And kind of my side second job,

because that doesn't take

up enough of my time,

is trying to make social

spaces more accessible

for people with Dementia.

So that started with about seven years ago

looking at making cinemas

Dementia friendly.

And in the last year I've been

working on Dementia friendly

operas, which I'll be

talking to you about later.

- Amazing, and welcome

to this wonderful field

of arts and Dementia, we're

a friendly bunch (chuckles).

Liv, can I ask you to

introduce yourself as well?

- Thank you, Robyn. Great to be here.

So my name's Liv McLennan

and I'm a musician

and community musician.

I'm based in Wilshire now.

I play the cello and

the Highland bagpipes.

But more recently the ukuleles

become quite important to me

and in my work as well.

And also in my research, I'm a

part-time doctoral researcher

at the Guild Hall School

of Music and Drama,

and they also run a

community interest company

called Sounds Better.

- Thank you so much.

It's just wonderful to have

such an array of expertise

within the virtual room.

(bright music)

Okay, I think it is time

that we heard a bit more

about your individual work.

So Andy, if I come to you first,

I know opera isn't your

first look into Dementia,

but I'd love to hear

about how that came about.

How have you become immersed in this area?

- It's kind of funny because

been doing ethnographies

of hospitals for about 10 years

and nobody's ever really cared.

I've suddenly got into opera

and I've had to make all these

various media appearances

and just hope nobody ever

asks me anything about opera

because I've only ever been to two operas

and I produced one of them.

I kind of looked into being able

to put on a Dementia friendly

opera in that I'm friends

with people who run an

opera company in Wiltshire.

So probably not far from where

I live is The Music Troop

with Edward Lambert.

And just sort of over dinner,

we were talking about him

looking for new audiences

and I suggested, well, have

you thought about doing

Dementia friendly performances?

And sort of from there,

probably a glass of wine,

too many this escalated

and before, you know,

we were putting on a production.

So beyond my lack of knowledge of opera,

I'm much better on sort

of hip hop and '80's pop

than I am opera.

But for me it's that communal thing.

And it doesn't really matter if it's opera

or if it's a rock gig or

if it's standup comedy

or it could be reggae or

heavy metal or anything.

It's that communal thing

of being in a place,

sharing musicians, giving you

something powerful, visceral,

that you latch onto and takes

you away from where you are.

And also that thing of just

being out of the house,

I have this big thing of,

to use one in the media so,

so Bobby Charlton died

a couple of weeks ago

and all obituaries sort of talked about

how he lived in the shadow of Dementia

and this shadow kept coming up.

And it's taking that out of that that yes,

you have that diagnosis of Dementia,

but that shouldn't mean

that you are stuck in,

to quote another musician

with David Bowie.

It shouldn't be, "Pale

blinds drawn all day,

nothing to do, nothing to say."

You've still got years to

go and you've got family

and friends and people to see

and you should be able to go and see them.

And if music was part of your life before,

or even if it wasn't,

it should still be that

really up until the point

that it really physically can't be.

And so we did an opera and I

think if you can do an opera,

you can do anything.

- Thank you so much.

And I think it speaks to the

real importance of, yeah,

not as you say, not simulating these,

but actually giving real

opportunities for people

with Dementia to engage

with high quality arts

in the real world.

So I'd love to hear a bit

more about the process.

You said you've got this

kind of full audience.

How was that process for you?

- So the opera, we came up

with the sort of basic idea

of the music troupe had a new opera

they were going to premier

at the Tete a Tete Festival.

It was called The Last Siren.

It's a sort of small

contemporary chamber opera

based on the Greek myth

Sisyphus and the sirens

willing the ships onto the rocks.

And the opera itself, we didn't change

it was gonna be performed the next day.

We had the musicians, we had the singers.

So it was how do we put this

on and make it accessible

to people living with Dementia?

That was kind of the tricky bit.

That was when I had to put

on my challenge Anneka hat

and start cold calling venues

and seeing what could be done.

And we really struggled with sort of,

and answered emails and

venues that wanted to help

but weren't quite sure.

And then I stumbled on

by the biggest accident,

I emailed the London College of Music

and I hadn't realised

they were actually part

of University of West

London and even weirder

or I didn't realise

that they had a theatre

and it was next door to my office

had I ever ventured slightly

further down the corridor,

like literally three doors down.

We had Lawrence Hall, this fantastic,

so looks like an old school theatre,

the sort of, we always joke,

it looks like it's where

the kids from "Fame,"

would hang out, it's just

full of all these young people

playing music and being very good looking

and enjoying themselves.

And we were like, okay,

so can we use this space?

And they didn't ask any questions.

They were just like, yes,

please. How would it work?

Can we come in?

Everything moves around, what

can we do to facilitate this?

And once we had a venue,

it was really quite easy.

I mean, I say easy, I'm an academic

and it was in a university.

So I then I spent two months going through

every health and safety and

risk and prevent procedure

you can think of.

But beyond the normal university

stuff, the actual hosting

of the event was okay actually, in fact,

possibly the hardest thing we

had was getting an audience.

So we had a venue, we had a production,

we had everything in place.

But then it's how do you communicate

to people living with Dementia?

Especially if they're

already feeling cut off,

like I discussed before,

I'm worried I'm rambling

now, but I'll keep going.

It's that you can't just stick

it on Facebook or Twitter

because not everybody's online and people

aren't looking for things.

And we timed it just for the moment

where the Twitter

algorithm kind of fell away

and all the people that

used to see your tweets

stop seeing your tweets anyway.

So getting the message out

was kind of the tricky part.

And we had to reach out

to lots of organisations

and begged for publicity and support,

but everybody was really helpful with it.

And we managed to put on

the production, fill it,

sell out all the seats,

yeah, it was great.

- Yeah, I think that's such

a wonderful kind of vision

for the world and communities

to be more Dementia friendly

so that people can kind

of cross those thresholds

as it were into these

spaces and feel confident

that they're gonna be supported

when they're there no matter

what's going on.

And perhaps this is a good

point at which to come

to you Holly, in terms of the

So Many Beauties festival,

I know this is another event that happened

within a very established

arts venue as well.

So I'd love to hear about

your kind of your process

for developing the

festival and how it went.

- I just wanna start off

by saying that people

living with Dementia have

taught me so much about the joy

and potential of being

in the present moment

and they're constantly

amazing me with their wit,

wisdom and creativity.

So I set up the So Many

with funding from the

Arts Council England.

To work co-creatively with

people living with Dementia

in their communities of care.

To harness this incredible creativity.

And so we work together

to compose new music

and we work together to devise

large scale cultural events

that counter as Andy and yourself

have just been talking

about the tragedy narrative.

And what we're doing is

showcasing what people

living with Dementia can

do rather than focusing

on what they can't do anymore.

So we're currently working

on our second large scale

Dementia friendly music festival,

which is gonna be at the

Bridgewater Hall in Manchester

and it's next September,

on Friday the 20th.

So everyone get your

diaries out now put that in.

And what we've done is

we've brought together

a stakeholder group of

18 cultural organisations

and Dementia support organisations

who are working across Greater Manchester

and we're gonna be working with members

of their Dementia support groups to devise

all the content for this one day festival.

So this includes working

with support groups

that are for members of the South Asian

and African Caribbean communities,

as well as with Manchester's

LGBTQ+ communities.

You're probably familiar with the work

that the Baring Foundation has been doing

around increasing

representation in the Dementia

and mental health workforces.

And so during the pandemic

I formed a collective

of musicians from different

ethnic backgrounds

who are going to be

developing their skills

in this co-creative

practise working with people

living with Dementia.

And the So Many Beauties

collective recently featured

we had a brilliant project

launch at the Bridgewater Hall,

a smaller event, just a half day event.

And the collective accompanied

new music that they'd written

and they performed with the Age UK

Salford's brilliant Buddy Club.

And we were so pleased to see the audience

who were a complete mix of

people living with Dementia.

We had four different

Dementia support groups come,

we had researchers, we had

strategic decision makers

from Manchester City Council and everyone

was just really positive about

this intercultural co-created

programme premier, no lyric sheets needed.

Buddy Club remembered

all their new song lyrics

and rhythms with no need for prompts.

So this really combated the popular belief

that only old familiar songs will do.

So the festival itself is

actually gonna be very diverse.

We are taking over the

entire Bridgewater Hall.

And we're going to be curating

a programme of new music,

dance, theatre workshops,

discussions, cabaret,

intercultural afternoon tea,

whatever our wonderful participants

decide that they want to see

developed or commissioned.

So watch this space (chuckles).

- That sounds absolutely wonderful

and I've made a note in

my diary for next year

so that I can hopefully come along.

I'm really interested, we hear

this word kind of co-creation

a lot within this field.

What does it look like in practise?

- So musically speaking, because

we are devising new music,

we are using musical

improvisation as a starting point

for creating new songs

and new pieces of music.

So we will probably

build from simple songs

and we'll try and evolve those.

We'll have lyrical development sessions

throwing ideas into the pot,

but it's very much about

being in the moment

and being spontaneous.

We don't want people to

feel hindered, you know,

if they say, I don't know,

that becomes a song lyric.

You know, you are validating

everybody's responses

and this enables people's

creativity to come tumbling out.

So musical improvisation,

we use small handheld

tuned and untuned percussion

instruments as the impetus

for creating rhythms and melodies.

And then we weave this all

together into something

that is a high quality

piece of public art.

In our first project we

actually created an oratorio

specifically to challenge this

elitist idea of an oratorio

and who could write and perform it.

And we had an intergenerational

choir of age five

I think to 98, a group of 150

people performing that work.

So co-creativity is often using

present moment improvisation

to create something

that's much larger scale

that can be presented publicly.

But we're also doing co-creation

around evaluation tools as well.

I think there's a saying, I'm

not sure of the exact wording,

nothing for us, without us,

everything that is being

developed for people

living with Dementia should

be developed with people

living with Dementia.

So this co-creation comes into play

even with the project

inception for this festival,

we actually spoke to

people living with Dementia

about what they wanted.

- That's fantastic, and

I think it kind of speaks

to some of what Andy was saying as well.

We're kind of looking at

involvement and participation

in the arts through this

kind of lens of citizenship

as it were, it's creating

spaces where people

can have their voices heard and yeah,

feeling listened to within the process

I think it's incredibly

important in a Dementia context

because so many decisions

get taken away from people.

So maybe this is a good point Liv,

to bring you in and your work with people.

Could you tell us a

bit about Sounds Better

as the organisation and

yeah, how you are approaching

using creativity and music

and arts with people.

- Yeah, so Sounds Better.

Grew out of a collective

of freelancers actually.

And we just wanted a bit

more control over our work

and you know, being able to set up things

in our local communities.

It's really important to

us to really live and work

and be based and to work with

the people we live alongside.

So I'm based in Wilshire,

one of my colleagues

is based in London and we have

projects in our communities.

So our work with people with Dementia

is focused in Wilshire.

And one of the challenges that

we really face in Wilshire

is that it's a very rural county.

And there are so many issues around that.

There's transport, there's

isolation, you know,

all of these things that

aren't easily rectified.

Bigger cities obviously

have their own issues too,

but yeah, the challenge of rural living.

Well our Dementia work is

based in a little village

called Downton and it kind of

has echoes of what both Holly

and Andy were saying is

that we work alongside

and with people and very

much try and shape the group

as to what they want to do.

Music is at its core and it started off

as a kind of pure music project.

One where we sang songs

that were familiar,

did pieces of music that were familiar

but also wrote our own based

on our own experiences of life

and our memories.

So we've got kind of more

than an album's worth it.

I'd love to get recording, but

at the moment we are working

towards a mini performance.

It's very much on a very

small scale, you know,

nothing compared to

Holly's amazing festivals,

but we are going to be part

of a Christmas tree festival

in Salisbury, which is, we

are really exciting for me,

we're writing our own Christmas carol

but because our group

also works with people

with other health conditions,

we are bringing them together.

They are writing parts of

the Christmas carol together,

we are gonna have a practise

and then we'll perform together

as well, so we're connecting people across

different health conditions,

different communities as well.

So we see as our music

and our music making

and it's all participatory.

And I suppose co-created, I

do shy away from that term

a little bit, but you

know, we work with people.

Yeah to try, that's the bridge really.

The music is the bridge to

bring people to together

and it's so lovely to hear

about the intergenerational work

and the opera work as well

and just see how so many

different forms of music

and musicing and different styles

can just bring people together.

So in essence it's music with

people and music to bridge

any divides that might be there.

- That sounds really

wonderful and it's kind of,

it sparked this kind

of question in my mind.

We've kind of been talking

about Dementia friendly

initiatives, whereas some of the language

that you are all using

comes down to this kind

of Dementia inclusive,

so it's beyond the kind

of Dementia friendly

it seems the work that you're doing.

So in terms of that rural context,

could you tell me a bit

more about the kind of,

yeah, how you develop

those sense of connection

through music when people

are kind of not next door

to each other say in terms

of physical location?

- Good question, it's

around experience I think

and life experience and what you find

when you get people in a room together,

no matter where they're

from or where they live,

there's always a commonality

and that's obviously

our humanness but we have experiences

that we can draw on that

are probably similar

to someone sat next to

us, whether that's travel

or whether that's having

a family or throughout

the life course there are

things that connect us.

So it's really trying to draw on those

and draw on our togetherness,

our humanness, our connections

and using that as the basis

to then take that forward

to a group song or piece

of music or production,

whatever that looks like,

whatever the group decides.

So we are kind of going

from individuals to a group,

of really kind of using

that sense of relationship

and relational music making

to bring people together.

- That's really fantastic,

I love the kind of, yeah,

the different ways in which

people can connect without words

as well in those situations

music can provide opportunities

for that self-expression.

So just picking up on that

and maybe it's something

that you are kind of

thinking about more widely

in your role outside of this as the CIC.

I'd love to hear more about

how what you've learned

doing the kind of practical

on the grounds grassroots

music making with people with Dementia

has it kind of impacted on

you in your kind of research

when you've put your research hat on.

- Yes, so my own research is

intergenerational music making

in care homes some as we

know, a huge proportion

of people in care homes

live with Dementia.

So in terms of the impact on research,

I think the way I see it is

that it has to be meaningful

for the people taking part,

the subjects I suppose,

or mine's practise research.

So actually I take

everything from my practise

and it becomes my research

when I'm in that kind of

project context anyway.

So it is things, you know, like ensuring

that everyone understands

what we're doing,

that everyone can participate to a level

that they are comfortable with

if they choose to and if they want to.

The ability to say no and withdraw

absolutely fine with that.

So all this kind of

underpinning values I have

as a practitioner I take

into my research as well.

And I think one of the things

that I find interesting

when people talk about

oh, doing the ethics form

and that kind of thing, well for me

that's absolutely common

sense and it's just, you know,

I have to put it in

slightly different language

for my ethics form, but I'm like,

well this is what I do every

day and it always surprises me

when people aren't working in that way

and that inclusive, in that

mindful way about other people.

So yeah, it's that kind

of taking those values,

those underpinning values of

social justice and inclusion

and yeah really being

intrigued about other people

and then transferring that

exactly into my research.

- Absolutely fascinating

and resonates a lot with

I'm sure both Holly and Andy

as well in terms of the work

that they've been doing.

I'm really interested just

as kind of a broad question

and I can come to you

each in turn about this,

but obviously we've talked

about the kind of the process

of it happening, but I'm

just interested to know

what was your biggest kind of takeaway

at this moment in time

from a recent project

or something like that,

something that's just stood out

to you in terms of the

impacts that this work

can have on people with Dementia?

So maybe Holly if I come to you first,

- Crikey, I've got a takeaway

bag the size of the moon,

but I think it was people's responses

to hearing different types of music

when I worked with

members of the collective,

we took wonderful Egyptian

musician Mina Salama,

brought all his incredible

ouds and ney flutes

and all these sounds that

people might have heard

on film soundtracks,

but they'd never actually

experienced close to.

And to see the delight and intrigue

of predominantly white British group

that we were working

with in hearing sounds

from other cultures and the gospel music,

the Turkish song and just how

that sparked conversations

around intercultural collaboration.

And I think that's

something that our world

needs so much at the moment.

So this open dialogue,

as you were saying Liv,

this sort of interest and appreciation

for each other's cultural differences

as well as our humans similarities.

So I think for me, seeing an audience

that was quite ethnically diverse itself

respond so positively to

something new and intercultural

and having conversations was

really what was fantastic

from our September launch.

- Wow, that's amazing and

really speaks to how we define

community in this day and age

when we have so many different

people, different voices

who can be part of these conversations

and creative activities.

How about you Andy?

What's your kind of biggest

thing that you've taken away

in terms of the impacts?

- The key takeaway you

always take away is,

kind of what you just

said, it's when you witness

the power that music has on an audience

and an audience living with

Dementia is no different

to any of our audience.

They're taken to another

place while that's happening.

I think the biggest takeaway

I've had from putting on events

is getting over...

So we talk about making

things Dementia friendly

and you have all these

things around risk and things

and you have to go through all of this.

Okay so we're gonna have

a quiet space over here,

we're gonna signpost the

toilets, we wanna make sure

this, this, this happens and

if this happens we can do it.

And all these things

are necessary in a way.

But in all my time of doing

Dementia friendly opera

and I did Dementia friendly cinema

in Cardiff for years before.

I've never used any of them.

Once the event starts, people

are taken with the event,

with the music, with the spectacle.

And when an opera is going,

it's very hard not to be taken in.

It's this incredibly loud

powerful thing, it's very visceral

to be part of and all of

our feedback said that was,

this was something new, people

hadn't heard this before

but it didn't matter, it

took them to a new place.

But then when everyone's

left you have all the people

from the venue, all the

people that you've given that,

the sort of swift

Dementia friendly training

and the volunteers and

they're all thinking,

well I didn't need to be here,

well you did need to be here

but you are a safety net

that we never really needed.

And that says something

about why aren't more events

Dementia accessible?

Because when we make these

things Dementia accessible,

we don't really use any of

the Dementia accessible stuff

anyways, it's just sort

of there just in case.

- Yeah, that's really

interesting and I'll tie a bit

into the question that I've

got to kind of round us off

in a few minutes.

But Liv, I was just

wondering if you had any

kind of key takeaways from

well this way of working?

- I think because my work is participatory

rather than focused on a performance,

we don't have an audience in the same way,

although we're all

performers and we're audience

and you know, there's all

kind of underlying theories

around that.

But I kind of just made a

little note for myself there.

But we have different

ways of knowing as people

and we have different

ways of being as well.

And I think the way my work

or you know, any kind of music

related work in Dementia,

you know enables those

different ways of knowing

and different ways of being

to really come to the fore.

And because it's relational as well,

people can relate to

others in a different way

and also it can help reconnect people.

So we have a person living

Dementia and a care partners

or care team, you know,

things can get quite tough

and it is a way of reconnecting them

to kind of get to their

essence and to see people

in either a different

way or to be reminded

of the person that that

they've fell in love with

or that, you know, they grew up with

whatever that relationship is.

And that is so powerful and

it can help to give people

the resilience and the strength

to carry on another week

in a caring role for example.

'Cause that can be quite tough.

So yeah, just that way of

connecting and a different way

of being with someone

else is so important,

particularly with the challenges

that Dementia can bring as well.

- Absolutely, and I think

between the three of you,

you've have such a wealth of kind of,

I guess it's embodied expertise

in terms of how you're

working with these people,

but also the kind of

practical skills, knowledge,

experience to be able to

facilitate things like this.

So I know in the kind of

broader Dementia landscape

there are more and more

initiatives that are looking

to become Dementia friendly,

Dementia inclusive.

So I guess one of my questions

too is to kind of flip it

on its head and maybe

Andy this is something you

might wanna jump in on

in terms of accessibility

in the first instance is,

what makes an arts venue

place space Dementia friendly

for this work to happen in?

What needs to be put in place

to allow for the successes

that you've observed?

- I think most places are accessible

and wheelchair accessible

and everything else.

I think an issue we have

with venues is the assumption

that a person living with

Dementia is living in a care home,

is not able to move around independently

and it forgets all those

stages from diagnosis

through to there is a group of

people living with Dementia,

with advanced Dementia that

perhaps it would be a challenge

to move into a venue

because of mobility issues.

But that's a very small

section of late stage people

living with Dementia and it's

everyone else in between.

And it's not as if people

are coming on their own,

most people coming to events

that are coming with somebody.

We did have people come

to the opera on their own

which was brilliant.

People with early stage from

a diagnosis came on their own,

got themselves to the venue,

came on the tube or the bus

because Dementia is such

a wide spectrum of people,

but you had people that did need help.

And our biggest issue is parking.

You go through all of these

things for Dementia friendly

and the thing that

comes down to is parking

close to the venue and

being able to help people

out with cars.

And that's not to belittle

the idea of making everything,

we should do everything

we can to make things

more Dementia friendly,

Dementia accessible

and the more we can do to do that,

to promote it and everything else.

But the reality of it is any building

can be Dementia friendly,

it just has to be willing

to promote it and

hopefully we get to a part

where don't have to promote it.

And just a cinema is both

a Dementia friendly cinema

and a cinema, a gig venue

is Dementia friendly

and we shouldn't have

to put a special thing

if this is an accessible performance,

it should just be accepted

that it's a performance.

And some people there might have Dementia,

but until we get there it's what we need

but we're gonna, with my

research we're gonna keep,

we've got another event

coming up in February,

which we're gonna do, not

at University of West London

at a separate venue.

Hopefully we have the same things.

We'll put all the Dementia

friendly things in place

to make it safe and to manage risk,

again hopefully we won't need them

and then we could come up

with some sort of blueprint

which will help venues

to be able to do this

and to promote it further.

And it doesn't have to be

opera, it could be anything.

- I think that's fantastic.

And I think you've highlighted

such an important point

in terms of the kind of

the assumptions of others

are often the biggest barriers

in terms of if someone

can or can't access something.

I mean in my own research work,

it tends to be things like automatic taps

and things like that that are the things

that people pick up on

when they're auditing

a space like this.

And so it is actually

the performance itself

being as inclusive as possible

and then just putting

stuff around it to make it.

- Yeah, and there's parts,

I know in my other research,

with my hospital hat

on there's a big thing

to make hospitals Dementia friendly.

There was this big thing to

paint toilet doors yellow

and I was thinking unless

toilet doors are yellow

at their house, why

would yellow mean toilet?

So sometimes we push

things too far and forget

that the toilet's a toilet

and the toilet at the venue

as long as there's a sign saying,

anyway, I'm wittering now.

I'll let you move on to everyone else.

- Not at all, Holly or Liv,

do you have any thoughts

on that?

- It's really interesting

to hear Andy's experience

and obviously recognising

that if we've met one person

living with Dementia, we've met one person

living with Dementia.

I think what we tried to do

with the way we ran the festival

was to curate the experience

so that it wasn't an overload

from the get go.

So as soon as people

arrived we thought about

how to make the space tranquil

and able to orientate

yourself in the space

by having live harp music

just to settle people down.

We curated the flow of the

festival so that people

weren't over faced with choice,

but yet there were choices.

It felt like a festival, you

know, it was quite chaotic

and lively and loud, but we kind of built

the whole scope of the day

so that we curated the event

so that there were quiet

times, there were quiet rooms,

which Andy has mentioned already.

I think one of the most important things,

I don't know if you can see it,

we have these yellow Happy to Help badges

and I think most of making

things Dementia friendly

comes down to people's

awareness of what Dementia

actually is and the fact

that it's an umbrella term

for over a hundred different

diseases of the brain.

And I think it is helpful

for people to know

that people's visuals can be impaired

through certain types of Dementia.

So they might see something

on the floor if the carpets

got some dark flooring,

they may see it as a hole.

So just to have people

on hand who are aware

of these things, who can

guide people and help them

on a human level.

I think Andy's quite right.

Signposting with yellow signs

and all this kind of stuff

is all very well and good,

but what it comes down

to is people guiding

and making people feel

comfortable in the space,

which is what we were very careful to do.

And we did work with the

Bridgewater Halls venue staff.

We created a package that was drawing

from some of the Alzheimer's

Dementia friendly

awareness sessions, but we

also made it music specific.

How can you help somebody

don't tower over them.

You know, consider bringing

yourself to eye level

with somebody, especially

if they're in a wheelchair,

to talk to them rather

than towering over them.

Just these tiny little

details of human interrelation

can make a massive impact

on whether an event

is inclusive or not.

- You put that much better

than me, Holly. Thank you.

- Not at all. I just

paraphrased you wildly (laughs).

- Thank you so much, Liv. Did

you have any thoughts on this?

- I do fully agree with Holly and Andy

and it is just the ways of

being a venue staff really,

because a building is a building

and there are little things

you can do, but lighting or

having it in a particular time

of day that might be more useful.

But actually it is, you know,

the people and how they

support other people

regardless of a diagnosis or not.

And accepting people for who

they are when they walk in.

And not trying to put

expectations, behaviour,

or otherwise onto those people.

I think that's a way to

kind of be Dementia friendly

is to accept that people

with Dementia, you know,

they behave as, or humans do.

We all behave differently

and like accept that

and that's okay.

We can be ourselves in the space,

a welcoming, inclusive space.

- Absolutely. So well said.

And honestly, I could talk

about this for a lot longer

than we have available to us today,

but I just have one final

question about the kind of,

so many of our listeners will

be early career researchers

or perhaps practice-based

researchers like yourself Liv.

And they'll be wanting to

organise events like this

or work with communities.

So I just really wanted

to pick your brains

maybe a one or two sentence answer

about what your hopes are

for research or practise

in this space going forwards.

Holly, maybe I'll start with you.

- I would be really keen to,

for researchers to address the

current under representation

of people from different

ethnic communities

in the research story.

And I think the most important way is,

not to make assumptions,

we've talked about assumptions before.

I think to go out and see good practise,

go and talk to organisations

like Touchstone in Leeds

who are really paving the

way for fantastic provision

for their BME communities.

Go out and observe and listen to,

before you make any decisions

on what your research

questions are going to be.

And really try and listen

to and understand people

who come from different

cultural backgrounds.

- So important. Thank you Holly and Liv.

- Good question, I think for

me as a community musician

practise researcher, it would

be about how community music

works in this space.

So we have a lot of,

what are the outcomes,

what are the benefits, yada yada, yada.

What actually happens, you

know, we can't articulate,

we're not articulating that in research

and it's not about, oh yes,

it's this welcome song

and that goodbye song.

You know, what are those

processes, what actually happens?

What underpins our sessions

with people with Dementia?

So I'm very intrigued about that.

What happens in rooms to get

to these outcomes, benefits.

So if anyone else wants to

help me take on that mantle,

let's chat.

- Yeah, that's absolutely

music to my ears Liv.

Andy, what would you say about this?

- I mean, if I was speaking directly

to early career researchers,

if you've got an idea

for an event, my advice would

be go out there and do it.

Go and speak to the local

theatre, the local cinema

or local bar.

Go and speak to local groups

of people living with Dementia

and put on the event.

Just go and do it.

This is your chances to

almost do something outside

of the boundaries and rigours of academia.

You don't need peer review for

this, you don't need to apply

for funding that you know,

even though your idea

is brilliant, only 10% of

people are going to get that.

And all of those irritants,

sort of enhance early career academia,

you don't need your

supervisor's permission.

You just need to think

of what you want to do,

and then go out there and set it up.

And it might be something that

you want to do that you think

of a people will enjoy

and then just be ready

that they might not enjoy it.

Or it might be something

that you want to co-produce

with people living with Dementia

and you can go and speak to them.

And then all those

things that we talk about

as being really difficult,

of building up networks

of diverse people living with Dementia,

you'll have found a shortcut to do it,

because you've had an audience,

you've spoken to them,

you know what they like.

It will not only help you

and it will help people

living with Dementia, but

it will help your research,

it will help your networks,

it helps everybody.

So go out and do it. Do an

event. Everyone should do it.

- Oh, well, hopefully we've

had some people very inspired

by what's been said during this episode

and we'll have some

more events popping up,

cropping up in the future.

I'll certainly be keeping

an eye out for them myself.

I'm afraid that's all

we have time for today.

I really enjoyed today's discussion

and if you wanna find out more,

you can have a look at the

Dementia Researcher website

where you'll find a full

transcript and biographies

of all our guests blogs

and much more on the topic.

So I'd just like to extend my thanks

to our incredible guests today,

Liv McLennan, Holly Marland,

and Andy Northcott.

And I'm Robyn Dowlen,

and you've been listening

to the Dementia Researcher Podcast.

- [Voice Over] The

Dementia Researcher Podcast

was brought to you by

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With generous funding from

the UK National Institute

for Health Research,

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