President Javier Viera from Garrett-Evangelical Theological Seminary and Indiana Area Bishop Julius Trimble are Rev. Dr. Brad Miller's guests on Episode 44 of The United Methodist People Podcast for an in-depth conversation about seminary education in challenging times.

President Viera assumed leadership of the Evanston, Illinois campus on January 1, 2021, after serving on the faculty and administration of Drew University School of Theology. A native of San Juan, Puerto Rico, Viera is the first person of color and the first Latino to hold the office of president in the seminary’s 167-year history.

President Viero spoke about his personal faith in Jesus Christ and his pathway which lead him to the Presidency at G-ETS prior to diving into a conversation about the challenges and opportunities in theological education in the present context of society and matters impacting the United Methodist Church.

President Viero quoted the Spanish poet Machado “making the road as we walk it” as descriptive of the situation facing seminaries. In particular, President Viera said “one of the things that that we are facing as a seminary is the fact that we're training people for a world that we do not yet fully understand, and that we aren't certain of what it will look like.”

He talked about theological education is a gift to the church because often the seminary is the place for engaging in dialogue and critical analysis of, of the brokenness of the world and wanting to be a part of, of the healing and the restoration, and resourcing the place of the church to lead in that regard.

The conversation led to a discussion of the purpose of graduate theological education itself. He concluded beyond academics in many ways seminary is a graduate school of leadership, and of public service, and of sending people out into the world to serve in those capacities.

This is a must listen to any United Methodist leaders invested and interested in the importance and future of seminary education.

Folks can learn more about President Javier Viera and Garrett-Evangelical Theological Seminary at www.garrett.edu.

The mission of the United Methodist People Podcast is to strengthen the connection in the United Methodist Church through conversation and commentary and is published by Rev. Dr. Brad Miller who is an active Elder in the Indiana Annual Conference of the UMC.

Rev. Dr. Brad Miller

March 2021

Garrett-Evangelical Theological Seminary

Reverend Dr. Brad Miller with you here on the

United Methodist people podcast. This is the podcast where we

hope to look to strengthen the connection in the United

Methodist Church through conversation and commentary. And

for a number of episodes, Bishop Julius tremble, and I have been

looking to encourage you, the listeners, clergy and people who

love the United Methodist Church in such a time as this, and we

do so by talking to lots of people and leaders in the

church. One of the leaders in the church who we're talking to

it today is Reverend Dr. Harvey, a president. Harvey, a ver era,

who is the president of Garrett evangelical Theological

Seminary. He started his term there, January one of 2021. And

he is comes to Garrett evangelical, as a native of San

Juan, Puerto Rico and is the first person of color in the

first Latino to hold the office of president at Garrett

evangelical Theological Seminary. And he's noted for his

innovation, his commitment to education, and to bring a fresh,

fresh perspective to Garrett. After serving a period of time

at drew University, where he was the vice provost. He has been

involved with transformational theological school curriculum,

degree programs and initiatives and increase in enrollment and

involved with the role of religion in Latin America. And

through Latin X causes. It's great to have him with us of

course, Bishop trebles been with us at times, he is the Bishop of

the Indiana area of United Methodist Church, then the

bishop in Indiana since 2016. I welcome both of you to the

United Methodist people podcast.

Thank you for having me. On. It's good to

be here. And welcome to President Vieira. We're so glad

to have them, and to have them in our North Central

jurisdiction and, of course, the opportunity to be in

conversation. Excellent, excellent. Well, this is a great

opportunity, especially since as you've just started your term of

President era as president of Garrett evangelical, which

happens to be the both visual Trump and I are alumni of that

institution, alumni of that institution, and we have a great

love and affection for it. And we want to see good things

happen there. And we feel good about your presidency there. But

we want to we want to learn a little bit about you in this

process. One of the things I love to learn about our guest

and United Methodist people podcast is not only your

professional situation now, but about your face. So let's hear a

little bit about your faith in Jesus Christ, what brought you

to faith in the first place, and a little bit about your journey

which eventually led you now to the presidency of Garrett

evangelical? Sure, sure. And again, thank you both for, for

having me and for giving really Garrett this opportunity to, to

be in touch with your audience and, and to show and for you

demonstrate the excellence of the the women and men that we

send out into ministry.

Reflecting on my own sense of faith, I am I am

one of those people who can honestly say that there is not a

day in my memory where I have not known the cradle the embrace

of, of the church. And there's not a moment where I have

understood myself as not being other than a Christian and as a

disciple of Jesus Christ. And so, you know, I was born in in,

as you mentioned earlier, San Juan, Puerto Rico into a Roman

Catholic family was baptized in you know, in brought up in my

formative years in that tradition. And then later, when

my family moved from Puerto Rico to Florida, we were invited by

actually one of my brother's teachers to attend the Methodist

Church, which, you know, was a bit strange for my parents who,

you know, had my parents had not only been born and raised Roman

Catholic, all of their education had taken place in Catholic

institutions. And so the world outside of that was somewhat

unknown to them. But we were welcomed into this

into this community, I think with with real warmth. And, and

then there was a, a small, a very small but burgeoning

Hispanic, Latinx Spanish speaking group of people who are

starting to, to congregate there and from their mission church

grew, that nurtured me and on my faith journey, for for the years

to come. And that eventually kind of launched me into

ministry. A lot happened in between that, but, but that's

sort of where I would say would be the genesis of my own faith

story.

really being born into the cradle of the church, but then

also being nurtured. And, and launched, you know, by, by God's

people who saw, you know, whatever it is the spark of

God's calling me and helped me to recognize it, and help me to

pay attention to it and and encouraged me on that way.

That's awesome. So that was your story of coming to faith and

then

what led you into ministry then to pursue this as

your vocation, and eventually into the educational world, and

then to eventually the presidency of Garrett

evangelical? Sure, so and so to say that I cannot remember a

time or a moment where I, you know, this hasn't been my

identity doesn't mean that I will always have clarity about a

call to ministry. And so when I went to college, I, you know, I

studied religious studies and political science, I was a

double major, and, and really thought that I was going to go

in that direction, I spent some time in Washington, DC, working

for the United States, Congressman.

And it was really during that experience, where I

remember we came back from a fundraiser together, the

congressman and I had a lot in common we, we had both been born

into, you know, Latino, Roman Catholic families eventually

became Methodist, under similar circumstances, and, and it was

really, you know, one day I was talking to him about, he asked

me about my future, where do you really see yourself going and,

and as I talked, again, this is an example of how the church and

its people helped me discern my own direction. He said something

to me that I'd never forgotten. And it stayed with me. And he

just said to me, simply heavier, the world needs a lot more good

ministers, and it needs politicians. Now, in today's

world, I'm not sure that's true, we need a lot of good qualities.

It's, as we in that moment, in time, it was almost, it was

almost the permission that I needed to kind of explore this.

And so from there, I decided to start exploring it, I ended up

attending Duke Divinity School in Durham, North Carolina, which

was an absolutely transformative experience for me, I'm very, I

was changed spiritually, intellectually, in terms of my

own, you know, personal maturation through that

experience. And it was really there while at two that I came

to accept the sense of, of calling in my life and, and, and

I was still trying to discern, okay, does this get lived out?

In congregational ministry and leadership? Or, you know, I had

a, I had a very active intellectual life and or do I

pursue this through the Academy, and at the time, I decided I'll

try both. And so after I finished a Duke, I went to Yale

Divinity School and did another degree in ethics, at at Yale,

and but at the same time, was serving a congregation in New

York City. And what I found over the course of my time, in that

program, is that I was being drawn more and more to the

congregational work, there was something about it, the

connection to people and their lives and, and to the work of

ministry, and really, the work of helping to kind of dream

about what this congregation in the middle of Manhattan could be

and the impact that it could have. And that really was

compelling to me. And I, for the next you know, 18 years of my

life, I gave myself over to to congregational ministry, and,

and felt very fulfilled in that work.

That's awesome. And then so you serve the churches

in New York City and other urban environments. And then you then

you eventually transitioned into the academic world, and evolved

now it to be the president ted kennedy of angelical.

Right, right. Yeah, I mean, I served in a

number of as I was discerning and coming to this call, I, I

served for several years as a as a youth director of a large

youth program in Florida, and then served, you know, rural

congregations in North Carolina through like internship

experiences, but then came to New York City and served one

congregation for 14 years and another congregation for four

years. And then eventually came into the deanship at drew

theological school in the interim, while I was doing

pastoral work, I also pursued doctoral studies and, and did my

work. Really, my work focused on On the, you know, the moral

formation and the learning that takes place in engagement across

religious differences. So I did a lot of work on interfaith

dialogue and encounters across religious differences of people

who from completely different traditions. And and that work

really grew out of my pastoral work because coming into a

congregation in the middle of Manhattan, and and realizing how

quickly I was having to deal pastorally with interfaith

families. You know, the one one spouse was Jewish one was

Christian, what how are we going to do? What are we going to do

with baptizing children? Are we how are we going to raise them?

Or couples who are discerning can be be married? You know, one

of us is Hindu, one of us is Christian, what do we do? How do

we think is

one of the things I'm really glad to hear you say,

President is how you'd have this diverse experience, both in the

local church, and in your experiences in the local church,

and in the academic settings. So you bring that to bear and I

think it's so so important for us to we does have a real need

for integration into the local church, and it's a society of

theological education and perspective. And I think that's

part of the agenda that I know Bishop Tribble wants to speak to

you about. So Bishop what I know you had some things in mind, did

you really want to speak to President for your about?

Oh, again, I've had the chance to

meet President Vieira with the College of Bishop says briefly,

but I, I really appreciate this opportunity. And I look forward

to post COVID. Whenever that is to have you come to Indiana, I

would love to serve you, we certainly want to keep that

strong connection. We don't have a United Methodist Seminary in

Indiana. But we have, you know, we're relatively close to

United, which is in Dayton. And we have folks that go to Asbury,

we have folks that go to the Christian Theological Seminary,

which is here in Indianapolis, and we have students at Garrett.

So I know this is a you probably when you if you were planning

your future, it wasn't COVID wasn't in the picture, or has

certainly taken taking a new role like this, amidst this

environment. You know, for the last several years, Brad, you

know, we've been talking a lot about adaptive leadership. Yes,

this is an environment where leaders of institutions and

conferences and local congregations are having to be

adaptive. I was wondering president Vieira, as you've come

into a new, new role as president of Garrett, in this

environment, the COVID environment? What are some of

the adaptive challenges that you you have faced? And what are the

opportunities, maybe aha moments or God, or, or glory sightings

along the way that you've discovered, even in this these

early early weeks? Right.

What a great question, bishop. And I think

that the way that I would answer that is that, I think one of the

early challenges that has become very clear to me and that and I

know, this has to be clear for you and your colleagues as well,

is my sense that, that the world as we knew it, is not going to

be a world that we return to when we're on the other side of

COVID-19. I think that congregational life, I think

that community life, will will be different in significant

ways. And, and one of the things that that we are facing as a

seminary is the fact that we're training people for a world that

we do not yet fully understand, and that we aren't certain of

what it will look like, right? So that we're training, there

was a there was a point of time, certainly when I was coming

through seminary, where what I was trained for, I felt was very

much the world that I walked into, and a lot of people feel

like oh, seminary didn't prepare me for I, you know, I actually

felt like I was very well prepared. Like my, my seminary

prepared me didn't, didn't give me every answer, but certainly

prepared me for the world that I stepped into. I don't know that

we live in that moment right now. Right? And so that as a

theological school faculty, we're we're having to not only

discern, how do we, you know, adapt to all of the changes,

pedagogically that we have to, you know, in technologically in

order to keep the seminary going, and in order to meet the

commitments that we've made to our students, and to the

congregations that are going to go serve. But really, it's a

larger question of, what is the role of, of people of faith in a

world that is That in which 500,000 of her fellow citizens

have now died in a world that has been completely Uprooted by

the unfinished work of racial justice and racial inequality?

How do we prepare people to go into lead into into

congregational and community settings? In a world where

economic inequality and the impact of of the economic

downturn is hitting families and individuals in really intense

ways? And where is the church in that? What is the church's role

in that? Right?

We're, we're,

you know, I, the phrase that I like to use a lot

is, comes from, you know, the Spanish poet Machado, which is,

we make the road by walking, right. And that's what we're

having to do. We, we are figuring this out and making the

road as we walk it, and, and part of what I think that we

have to do, there are, there is a great wisdom in the tradition

that we are a part of this, we are not the first Christians who

have confronted uncertain times, and overwhelming times, and to

be able to draw on that tradition to be able to see the

way that our ancestors and predecessors in the faith have

surpassed and confronted their own challenges. There's

something to learn from that. So I'm one who actually believes

that, you know, this isn't a moment to have less theology and

less history and less Bible, it's actually time for more of

that, because it's by dive diving more deeply into the

tradition and and gleaning the wisdom from that, that we can

then begin to have a clear sense of how we move forward as people

of faith as Christian people of faith in this given moment.

One of the things that is said in some of the

data, or some of the introductory comments about you

on your website says that you are preparing students for such

a time as this. And I think you are touching on that right here.

And what your comments are dealt with the time we are going to

emerge into is just different than where we came from. But now

we're in this chaotic time right now. What are some of the

pragmatic things that we can do, though, President? What are some

of the pragmatic things you're preparing students to do? When

they leave Garrett and go to those congregations which have

been devastated in one way or another yield socially,

economically, racial strife have been what not meeting and

worship in person for months upon it? Any number of things?

What are some of the practical pragmatic things that we can do

to prepare those pastors and clergy you're going out there?

I think I think a couple of things. One is that I

think that we are not simply preparing people to go and lead

institutions, right, even though that's something that we

absolutely have to do, right. People have to know how to

relate to other human beings, they have to know how to manage

facilities, they have to know how to read a budget

spreadsheet, right. But what we're also hopefully training

them to do is to be a public theologian, and to be the public

witness of the church in the communities that they go to. So

what we have to train them to do, what we have to prepare them

to do well, is to learn how to read the, the social context in

which they are going to not step into a community assuming that

they're bringing solutions, but actually, to become immersed in

the life of that community to learn what the people's needs

are, what the people's aspirations are, and to begin to

be to begin to lead congregational life in a way

that's responsive to that in a way that, you know, that sees

the divide between the spiritual and the secular as something

that that doesn't make sense anymore, to see that the work of

of economic justice and racial justice and spiritual formation

and moral formation is all part of the work of the church, not

something that the church does, you know, just through its

Outreach Ministries or something that it does as a side, but that

this more spiritual work is it's essential work. No, it's all

part of what Christian witness and ministry in the world is.

And that and that we see that that work is in fact spiritual

work, doing the work of social repair, and economic justice and

social justice in in the community. I think all of that

is a way of caring for people's souls, nurturing their spiritual

hunger and spiritual lives because the two don't exist in

separate universes but are part of an integral whole

Should What do you need to hear from President

Vieira, the terms of when pastors come out of seminary and

come to be appointed into our local churches? What kinds of

things do you need from the seminaries for the pastor's

coming out? Now?

I resonate with what President

Veera said earlier, I came out of Garrett bread, I don't know

how you felt, I felt fairly well prepared for ministry for the

world in which we were living in at the time.

I did as well. Yes.

In fact, I felt quite privileged because

some of my classmates didn't know where they were going. I

was United Methodist. And I already had an appointment

before I graduated, served in North Chicago for foreign for

four and a half years of cross cultural cross racial

appointment. But it was a wonderful, wonderful

appointment, I felt prepared for it for that. And I didn't expect

that seminary to teach me everything about ministry, I had

a great mentor, I grew up in the church. And well, before I

started seminary, I was already a youth minister in my local

congregation. So I wasn't, I wasn't expecting the seminary to

do it. But what I did get from Garrett, and what I do still

expect is I had a thirst for learning when I left seminary,

that was that had been elevated when I went to seminary. So when

I graduated from from, from seminary, I just love reading, I

love love libraries and love in a Barnes and Noble or any kind

of bookstore. You know, I get some of that from my, from my

mother, who's, who's a retired school teacher. But I still

think there's a need for persons coming out of seminary to have a

thirst for being lifelong learners, and also adaptive

leaders. Because I, when I left seminary, I learned from church

based community organizing bad and get that in seminary, but I

had came out of a local congregation where there was a

strong emphasis on social justice and community

engagement. And I think graduates now need to come out

with something that they're that they're passionate about, if

it's preaching, let it be preaching, if it's if it's

engaging, and if they have an entrepreneurial spirit, that

it'd be that I think we're past the time when a person just

comes out, say I'm just coming to kind of serve as a chaplain

and residents of a local congregation. And, but I think

seminaries Can, can do can can prepare people for a diverse,

the content consistently emerging, diverse culture, and

some of the some of the changes that are rapidly happening

relative to technology, communications. Some of our

younger pastors who are younger than you and I, Brett, you know,

are our digital natives. So, my grant, my granddaughter's not

yet three years old, is already has a little iPad. And so she,

she's used to talking to people on the phone where you can see

him on the phone, too. So. So it's a different kind of world.

And I think I think seminaries have to, you know, my question

would be, you know, what do you do now, are people still

registering to come to the campus? Is there an expectation

that people can do do a portion of their seminary, you know,

virtually, or it relationships part of part of the richness

rich experience of seminary for me was, even though even though

I was married, was was relationships, you know,

actually being on campus actually, engaging students and

faculty and, and, and the community. So that's it, it's a

different world, we are now even post COVID, I think it's still

gonna be different.

It is, and we're trying to we're actually trying

to figure this out again, as we go along, Bishop because we, you

know, we, of course, like everyone else, we pivoted and

are now in fully remote operations, we plan to be back

in the fall. And our intention is to come back fully in person,

but to allow for students who need to, to, you know, be in

remote, to have remote access to our programs and, and for all

different manner of reasons to expand. And one of them is to

expand who has access and the ways in which we can continue to

expand our service to the church and to the world. But you know,

what I want to I want to pick up on something that you were

saying earlier, because I think that one of the things that I

think that seminary needs to cultivate in the life of our

students who go out to serve is that we need to do better job of

making sure that they have a vibrant spiritual life. And that

you know, one of the things that I think I mourn as an educator

and I've seen this, I am not alone, I've only been a Garret

for two and a half months. So this isn't a comment on Garrett,

but in other places I've been is that people come out very clear

and passionate about matters of social justice. But they can't

always relate it to how faith inspires that commitment, and

how faith informs that work. Right. And it's not always clear

how we talk about Jesus, and about the church's tradition,

and our Christian witness as part of that social justice

work. And I think we have to do a much better job with that. And

it's one of the things that, that I'm committed to, I think

that my own experience in local congregational work was that,

that there were deep there were moments of immense challenge and

spiritual dryness. But that but that there were but if I did not

have kind of this this Wellspring from which to draw

from, and people who were spiritual partners, and

conversation partners with me, I think it would have been, I

would have, I would have felt isolated, and I would have been

much more effective. And I think that we need to cultivate an

active spiritual prayer life and, and spiritual engagement in

our students in a way that we have.

Well, let's just go there personally, for just a

minute, President VIERA, what are some of the Scriptures that

inform you? Or what are some of your spiritual mentors, either

through reading or through personal mentors? Or what are

some of your spiritual practices? Yeah,

I mean, for me, you know, when I, when I say,

you know, a rich prayer life, my own my own spiritual practices,

more contemplative in nature, so I'm not one, you know, when I

get called on to pray, I do it because it's what we're called

to do. But if I if, you know, if it were really what we're doing,

we would be in moments of deep silence and listening for the,

for the moving of the spirit and listening for the ways in which

God is, is that work trying to make God's Will known to us and

discerning and trying to listen for that. So I think that my own

personal prayer, spirituality is, is much more contemplative

in nature. And I think that that's something that that we

need to do a much better job of teaching in our seminaries and

teaching our students about in terms of, you know, scriptures I

for me, I, you know, there's the text from Isaiah, which Jesus

opens, you know, in the synagogue, and says, I have

come, you know, the Spirit of the Lord is upon me, he has, you

know, empowered me to preach good news to the poor release to

the captives recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty,

those who are oppressed, and to declare that the time has come

when God will save God's people. That is, for me, what I think

ministry is all about, and what we're called to. And that's what

that's the scripture that I returned to over and over and

over again.

betray is interesting. It's interesting, I

think Mike slaughter in one of his books says, that if the good

the guy, good news, is not good news to the poor, it's not good

news at all. It is right. So that text that you that you that

Jesus quotes from, from Isaiah is so so powerful. And so, so,

so necessary, one of the books that kind of grant gave me

wokeness, before that was a word, I guess, was sometime ago

when it first came out the pedagogy of the oppressed by

Paulo Freire. And I know that you're one of your experts, your

maybe your PhD might have been part of that as well, my

dissertation. But good, good idea. I can finally finally ask,

just one of the things that wasn't there wasn't aware of

that. this past Sunday was the anniversary of the Selma, Selma

March. And the first one that john lewis was not part of

congressman john lewis now now gone on to heaven. But one of

the things I know people from that from that time period, say

what was often missing missing was what fear talks about is

praxis. This whole notion that we're engaged in like I'm These

are my words. Now, the whole notion we're engaged in life and

ministry and doing and being in there often is not any period of

reflecting on that. How am I here is those words which were

written some time ago, who have have agency today, President

Vieira de

I think, you know, one of the things that that

people who read frary often don't realize is how deeply

committed a committed man of faith he was and how much the

churches faith informed his own his own thinking and practice.

And, and I guess you know, for me faries whole notion of

constantly Sassoon right of of, of critical awareness or

consciousness raising, or awakening, if you will, it's

really difficult word to translate into English. But it's

that it's becoming aware of what actually is that what is around

us what is and that and that we have an agency in in the world,

right. And so often, in a part of the people that he worked

with, felt that they had no agency. And part of his work was

to through literacy campaigns was to, was to inspire them a

sense of, of how they could become their own advocates, how

they could create their own future, and how they could

challenge the systems of oppression that kept them in

that mindset, that we have no agency, we have no way to create

a different reality for themselves. I think that's the

work of the church, right? Is is a spiritual awakening, that that

brings transformation to local communities and to local lives

and opens us up to what the Spirit is doing in the world. To

us, you know, to use biblical language, bringing about the

kingdom of God amongst us, right, that's the work of the

church. And so it's in that sense that I understand the work

of fairy being very relevant, it's still very much alive

today. Thank you.

Yet we and we have to apply this type of thinking

to a broken world right now. And we have a broken world in many

ways. We have a broken church, you know, we have a, the

challenges of what's going on politically and socially, social

economically, the last year or so the pandemic 500,000, dead,

all is going on. And then we have C in our beloved United

Methodist Church, we have our challenges and our schisms. So I

just want to get started. When I asked you president Vieira, what

is the state of seminary education as it applies to the

brokenness of our world in our church right

now. Actually, this is, this is one of the

places where I think theological education is a gift to the

church, because it's what you have just described, I think, is

what we end up engaging in more than anything is in dialogue

and, and in critical analysis of, of the brokenness of the

world and wanting to be a part of, of the healing and the

restoration, that the church can and should be leading in that

regard. And so I think that, you know, in theological issues in

theological seminaries, I think this is a regular conversation.

And what I think I have found is, you know, at least in, you

know, in my previous setting, when alumni would, would come

back and engage re engage in this sort of reflection and

critical conversation, they would say, this is what we miss

this is our soul is starved for this kind of engagement. And

this is a way that I think the seminaries need to adapt Bishop

back to your earlier point is, is in providing that kind of

continued resource and engagement for our alums where

they are, and in some ways, helping them and empowering

them, equipping them to continue to do that kind of work, that

kind of critical reflection in their congregational settings.

So that that work can begin to kind of take root and emerge

from within their congregations and the congregational life,

restoration and reconciliation, to be a force

for that it

just such a need, I

think and also the spiritual renewal aspects, I

just think, you know, there is a darkness and of dryness and a

challenge that is out there. That is needs to be addressed

through the church in one way and other women, clergy among

the people, and we got challenging, challenging times

here.

I think, you know, early on, and Bishop you, you

can answer this better than I can to see if this is sustained.

But early on, when the pandemic hit, it was, it was really

amazing to watch the statistics of how churches now going

online, we're seeing more people engaged in their liturgical

worship life than they were when the only option was to be there

in person. Right. And to me that spoke of, of something that

actually is very hopeful for us is that there actually is a

spiritual hunger and a spiritual longing, that we haven't been

incredibly effective at address. But that the this pandemic gave

us an opportunity to kind of rethink, and and to re engage.

And I'm not saying that I don't know whether that kind of

initial response, and engagement has been sustained over the long

haul. But what it does speak to is an opportunity that we have

to kind of think about how to how to how to capture and how to

sustain.

And give

and give the tools and help be the process be the

think tank, as it were, they'll apply the tools that can be

applied there in the local church setting and other ways as

well, because there's so many, Yes, that's true, what you said,

and, you know, I'm involved with technology here and so on, I

know that it's such an important tool. And yet, there are many

churches that are kind of struggling with that, you know,

there are many pastors who aren't up to speed on all all

the way in so when you had this gap of

congregations and congregations who are resistant

to it, absolutely,

absolutely, and individuals, and so on, and so

forth. So you have, some people are embracing that, you know,

the online worship and so on. And so people who struggle with

it, and some people just can't get it can't get do it. And so

we're gonna have to rebuild some things and just reimagine some

things, how we do church. And I believe the seminaries have to

be in the forefront of that it has to be the cutting edge, the

research the r&d of the church, as it were research and

development and that type of thing. So

yeah, this is actually a conversation, even

amongst our liturgical studies, folks, that, that that have that

has come up in conversation here, because, you know, one of

the things that we realize is that it's not that the work is

not simply to broadcast what we do in the sanctuary on a Sunday

morning. And that communicates in the same way. It's a

different medium, right. And so we have to think of these as

different experiences, different opportunities, and we have to

cultivate those experiences to reach different audiences. And

and that's a lot of work and our pastors that are we're really

doing this and engaging as well. They're exhausted. And you know,

our faculty, we hear I hear it from they're exhausted in doing

this work, because it's not the way that we've gone about it.

It's not sustainable. And we have to figure out a way that we

can do this well, but that we can do it in a way that's

sustainable, and yet addresses the need.

And it was bring to life and in vigor where there

was just the challenges of such a time as this patient looked

like you're chomping at the bit to ask another question here.

I was thinking, thinking president

Vieira, what about persons? Who are the people that should think

about coming to a school like Garrett, we often I mean, when I

went to seminary, it was because I felt a call to ministry. My

pastor went to Garrett and I just went to seminary, but but

there may be people who were who are contemplating finishing

undergraduate, and never have thought that seminary seminaries

graduate school as a place is just for people who've already

felt a clarion call for for the local church ministry. What if

you have a passion for law or a passion for politics? Well, this

is Pastor for chaplaincy. Yeah,

Bishop this question because I think that

this is one of the I mean, here, if you if you let me just kind

of tout Garrett for just a second. This is one of the great

ways in which I think carat can can be a gift to the church writ

large, not just to pastoral ministry, cert, 56% of our

students graduate and go into pastoral or congregational

leadership of some form, right. But that leaves a significant

portion who go to do something else. And in part because of

where we're located on the campus of Northwestern, we have

the opportunity for people to kind of explore, you know,

people who were writers, for example, and want to, you know,

think of their work and their ministry through writing can can

do programs with the Graduate School of you know, of

journalism at Northwestern, or with the grant, you know, with

social work with an our partnership with Loyola, or, you

know, we have programs with, you know, the Kellogg School of

Business, people who see themselves as wanting to go into

business but to who want their work to be informed with a

moral, ethical theological lens, right. And we need people in

business with that kind of formation and those kinds of

commitments. So I think that that Garrett is a place where

you can come and, and have a sense of Christian vocation, and

and and be called into the world with that sense of Christian

vocation in a broad way, that can in fact and for many means

congregational ministry. But it can be expressed in a lot of

different ways people who go into movement leadership, people

who go into organizational leadership, people who are, you

know, committed to, you know, education as a, as a as a

pathway for freedom right and, and see their work as being

theologically informed.

Even politics, as you mentioned earlier in

politics. That's exactly

right public servants. One of the things that

I have heard at the term for seminary is to become a servite.

seminary. And I love that imagery. And I'd like you to

speak to that for just submitted in terms of this. You've already

touched on it here. It's my understanding, I'm a parent of

220 somethings and sons who love public service, but they've kind

of fallen out of favor in the church because they see a lot of

issues in the church. And a lot of young adults feel that way

believe they believe in serving the greater good. But they are

looking at different avenues to do with 10. I'd like for you to

speak to this sensibility of servant Seminary in terms of how

it can be attractive to folks who want to serve a greater

good, but somehow I've seen the church is maybe just one of

several options. But can you speak to this area of serving

seminary?

Yeah, this is, you know, it's interesting. This is

a conversation I was having with my wife recently, because, you

know, we were talking about carrot as a Graduate School of

Theology. And she was pushing me on but what does that mean? What

does that actually mean? And the more and more I spoke about it,

the more I realized that, yes, we're preparing people,

theologically, right, giving them a sound, theological

foundation to everything they do. But in many ways, Garrett is

also a graduate school. It's a Graduate School of Theology, but

it's also a Graduate School of leadership, and of public

service, right. And we're sending people out into the

world in those capacities. You know, the notion of a servant

seminary is something that my predecessor, Dr. Pauline Rector,

that she that was that was really her sensibility about

what the seminary should be. And it was about cultivating a kind

of leadership that saw itself as going into the world primarily

to serve. Right, and that this notion of, of servanthood, that

is so central, to Jesus own ministry, and Jesus calling of

his disciples would be embodied and expressed in the world

through our graduates that, that, that that if we were doing

our work well at Garrett, that people would graduate from here,

knowing that first and foremost, they go into the world to serve

and to serve as servants, right, I come into this world not to be

served, but to serve. And it's that sensibility that I think

that we're trying to, to form and to inspire in our students.

Appreciate that so much. We need to draw this to

close in just a moment or two here. But I wanted to see if

Bishop if you had any comments or closing thoughts for for

president VR or anything else you want to share?

Well, I I'm encouraged by by the

leadership of President Vrn. And the opportunity. I know a lot of

people say that we're in liminal space, and we have to, to

rediscover Lamentations and lamenting and and recognize that

we can't go back to the way things were and but I do also

think that we are in a tremendous space of opportunity

for for proclaiming the gospel. I think there's, I've said this

here in Indiana, that I think there's going to be a revival, I

think a revival is already underway. And when we come out

of COVID, there's got to be a tremendous need for for

enthusiastic followers of Jesus Christ, to create wide doors and

wide open windows for people to participate in God's movement.

And I think the seminary I'm inspired by Pope Francis in a

lot of ways. He here earlier on said that the church should give

itself away. And so maybe the seminary in that same sense, as

you know, we often think of institution is how do we sustain

institutions? How do we protect institutions, but what if we see

of sales as a church and as seminaries is, is how do we give

ourselves literally give our give ourselves away? I think

this is a, obviously a challenging time for leadership,

but also a great opportunity to be a harbinger of hope. And

also, this is a good opportunity for some experimentation. And we

often talk about risk taking but then we punish people when they

take risk. So I think We can find the courage and where

without actual actually engage in some innovation that will

happen not only in the church but also in the seminary. So I

look forward to being so supportive of, of your

leadership. And, and here it is as we, as we go forward into the

future. Awesome.

May Oh, sorry.

So I just want to give you the last word president

Vieira about what you ever will you want to share in any signs

of hope for the future?

Yeah, I want to say Bishop, if I may, I should

not we should also recognize that, yes, we're living in in

liminal times and in difficult times for the church. But But

you know, you are in a in a very unique position in which the

demands on your leadership are extreme to lead wisely, to lead

carefully to lead expansively. And I want you to know that the

Garret is here, also to support your ministry and the Ministry

of your colleagues and Episcopal leadership and the ministry of

the people of the Indiana annual conference. We're committed to

that. And we will be in regular prayer for you and the people of

Indiana. And I hope that we might find ways to bring renewal

and and innovation to the church, because I think more

than ever, the church's ministry matters for real people and in

their lives in a deep and profound way. And I want to be a

part of, of the work that you and the people of Indiana are

unfolding there, I wouldn't be in partnership with you. And so

I look forward to that and no of our prayers and support for all

of you.

But that's an that's an awesome place for us

to bring our conversation to close a place of hope and

partnership, and relationships and encouragement moving forward

for such a time as this. So we appreciate the leadership of our

president Harvey Vieira of Garrett evangelical Theological

Seminary, and of Bishop Julius tremble at Indiana air United

Methodist Church, who have been our tremendous guests of

encouragement here today on the United Methodist people podcast