On this episode of Clover Club, Erika Audrey and Jenn Jones invite you to eavesdrop on their chat as they discuss their intertwining careers in hairdressing, reflecting on the highs and lows of entrepreneurship in the beauty industry. Jenn, not only a salon owner but also a doula, shares the profound moments she witnesses during childbirth, offering a unique perspective on the beauty of new beginnings.

Through the lens of their shared experiences, the duo explores the delicate balance of creativity and business acumen required to thrive in their respective fields. Listen in as they weave tales of growth, resilience, and the lessons learned from their journey as skilled artisans in the realm of beauty.

While laughter naturally finds its way into the conversation, "Shop Talk" emphasizes the art of dialogue that Erika and Jenn have mastered through countless hours spent conversing with clients. Join them as they peel back the layers of their lives, offering a rich tapestry of stories that go beyond the salon chair, providing a glimpse into the fascinating world of two conversational pros navigating life, business, and beauty in Atlanta.

Check out Creature ATL here

Shop Hawkins & Clover here

Take a stand up comedy class here

Welcome to Clover club, a podcast about

curious conversations and stories and

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tended to make you laugh and learn.

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I'm your host, Erica.

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And today is a unique episode

because today is the first episode.

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I have recorded with a guest

who I've never met before.

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, but she knows.

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All of my friends and we have so many

mutuals and comment and it became clear

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that she needed to come on to Clover club.

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So I'm ecstatic to welcome

Jen Jones, owner of creature.

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ATL Jen.

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Hi.

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Hi.

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So happy to be here, so happy to have you.

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, so Jen is really good friends with, if

you listen to episode six champ owner

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of guilty party and his wife, Marissa.

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And so this is kind of

a full circle situation.

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Cause Jen is now sitting

at the taco bell table.

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That champ forced me to buy.

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Which I love by the way.

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I mean, just brings up all the nostalgia.

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Yes.

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Then a soldier, for sure.

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For sure.

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Yeah.

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So Jen, Jen is a vegan.

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It's true.

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Can you eat to talk about, or have you

ever sat at a taco bell table before?

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Yes, because I have not

been vegan my whole life.

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Okay.

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, and I think you can eat a taco bell.

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There's definitely things you can do.

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Like take the cheese off.

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And the sour cream off.

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I have not because I think there's

other things that happen to me

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when I go to taco bell that I

probably don't want to talk about.

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All of us.

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I steer clear of the taco bell.

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That's totally fair.

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But I do talk about, I think is

one of the most versatile fast food

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establishments for multiple dietary needs.

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So you can do the

gluten-free there as well.

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Totally.

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Easy, but they've got the dessert,

the cinnamon twisties, those.

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Those are amazing.

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I feel like those would be vegan.

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They're vegan.

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Okay.

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And I feel like they're

gluten free as well.

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Aren't they?

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Corn based.

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I believe so, or like,

rice-based ask the internet.

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I'm going to ask again, we're going.

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To put them in, in that.

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Good to know.

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Yeah, I love talk about, , so Jen

creature ATL is a salon, right?

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You are a hairdresser.

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It is true.

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I am a hairdresser.

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And.

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I was, I was explaining

to Jenna a little bit ago.

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, one of the common pieces of feedback

that I've gotten about this podcast.

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Is that there's such a variation

in the types of guests that

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I've had, but it's been.

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I'm like, how do I compliment myself

while repeating, please do, please do.

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Go ahead.

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But then I've done a good job of,

uh, creating conversation with so

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many different people and I'm like,

oh, that's cause I'm a hairdresser.

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Like that's, you have to be good at having

a conversation to be a good hairdresser.

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And, uh, so I'm like what a perfect

opportunity to kind of put that on

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display than to get another hairdresser

up here and show you guys how to

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people who've never met before.

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Can have an awesome and

engaging conversation.

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Yeah.

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I can not shut up.

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I love we're going to not shut up.

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This whole time.

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I agree.

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Jen this, you made me

think of this so cheesy.

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I don't want to open this up.

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I want to read you a quote.

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Please do.

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I'm back.

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I don't know if you've

ever heard this before.

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Okay.

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, you may have, but it's one of my

favorites and it's about hairdressers.

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So I'm John Steinbeck.

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The author says it is my considered

opinion that the hairdresser is the most

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influential person in any community.

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When the public goes to a hairdresser,

something happens to them.

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They feel safe and they relax.

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The hairdresser knows what their

skin is like under their makeup.

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They know their age.

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. They don't have to keep

up any kind of pretense.

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People tell a hairdresser things.

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They wouldn't dare confess to a

priest and they're open about matters.

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They try to conceal from a doctor.

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When people place their secret

lives in the hairdresser's hands,

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the hairdresser gains in authority,

few other people ever attain.

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I have heard hairdressers

quoted with complete conviction

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on art, literature, politics,

economics, childcare, and morals.

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I tell you that a clever, thoughtful,

ambitious hairdresser wields the power

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beyond the comprehension of most people.

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Does that resonate with you?

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Absolutely very well said so well,

was he married to a hairdresser?

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How does he know?

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That's a great question.

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Um, he either was married to

a hairdresser or just like.

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Had a good hairdresser.

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Yeah, he's just perceptive maybe,

maybe, but that was yeah, no

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truer thing has ever been said.

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Yeah.

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And it's, I think

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Being a hairdresser isn't easy.

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The first chunk of every hairdresser

has career involves a lot of

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tears, a lot of frustration.

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Trauma so much trauma.

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But if you do it right on the

other side of that, it is such

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a rewarding profession because.

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We are able to weave ourselves

throughout so many different

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facets of life and types of people.

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And that's something that I really have

wanted to, to display on this podcast.

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And, uh, it's, it's just

so rewarding and so cool.

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Like, do you feel that way?

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I totally feel that way.

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And I think it's, it's an amazing

profession where you can, I

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mean, the world is your oyster.

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You can have the career of your dreams

and you can have work-life balance.

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Like I have a whole team of

people now who I'm trying to

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coach through all of that, right?

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Like if you want to go on a vacation,

figure out how much it's going to cost.

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Yeah.

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Break it down, figure out how many extra

clients you need to do to get that.

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Like, you can go on

vacation, even if you're.

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You know, only have a little bit extra,

like you don't have to wait until you're

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making six figures to go on vacation.

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You just have to plan it out.

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And that can be as easy as like two

extra days a month behind the chair or.

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One extra client in your

chair every time you work.

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I mean, it's, the freedom is just amazing.

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It truly, truly is.

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, Jen, did you go to college?

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I did.

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Oh, really?

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Yeah.

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Okay.

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What was your major?

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Sociology.

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And yeah.

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Right.

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And, , I had a minor in

drug and alcohol rehab.

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Studies.

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Yeah.

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I have a lot of addicts in my family,

so I was kind of picked just the

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industry to exercise that muscle.

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I have been able to use so much

of what I learned in college.

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I was not stoked to go to college.

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My parents were kind of like, we'll float.

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You we'll pay for your college, but if

you go to beauty school, now you're done.

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Oh, you're like out of the

payroll, you know, like just, ah,

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And I wasn't ready to do that.

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So.

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I did do hair when I was in

college, just on the side and

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kind of kept up those skills and

then went to an Aveda Institute.

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As soon as I was done, I also

went to an Aveda Institute.

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Oh, my God.

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This is so funny.

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So I always wanted to be a lawyer.

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And then I got my first salon job.

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Well, I grew up in the beauty industry.

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My mom was a hairdresser and then my dad

works on the business side of things.

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, so I'd always grown up around hair

shows and salons and stuff like that,

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but I always wanted to be a lawyer and.

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Yeah.

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Were you like I'm not doing hair?

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Um, uh, sort of, yeah.

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Okay.

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Um, Ah, but I also was interested in it.

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And so when I was 16, I got a job

as just a general assistant at van.

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My goal.

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And it was my crash course in salon staff.

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And that was right around the

time they opened up , the Aveda

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Institute here in Atlanta.

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And so my boss at the time was like, Hey,

listen, look, I know you want to be a

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lawyer, but like, Beauty schools a year.

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Why don't you just go get your license?

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And then you can work while

you're in college and make money.

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And I was like, that's

a solid piece of advice.

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That is a solid piece of advice.

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Yeah.

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So I took it and I went to beauty school

and then I was like, oh, I'm good at this.

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And then I was like, why would

I go spend six figures on

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college and all of this time?

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And so I, I didn't go, but then.

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During those building gears.

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, oh, I can't tell you how many teary-eyed

phone calls my mom thought of, like,

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why didn't you make me go to college?

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And now it's the best decision

I've ever made in my life.

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I know.

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Cause you just got started.

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Yeah.

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I just, I just went for it

and I don't have college debt.

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Yeah.

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I don't want to say that.

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I wasted my time going to college.

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Um, because I, I grew up a lot

during that and I got to kind of fuck

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around without having to find out.

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Too hard, you know?

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Like in a safety net, so yeah.

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But.

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It would be, I don't know.

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It'd be interesting to

see where I'd be now.

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If I, if I had just gone right into it

and maybe it wouldn't have been great.

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I mean, obviously my path

that I took led me to here.

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Yeah.

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But yeah, I went to an Aveda Institute in

chapel hill and I was in the first class.

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Oh, wow.

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And they had a scholarship competition

before, so I won that nine, so I only had

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to pay half of the outrageous tuition.

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That's awesome.

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That was probably more than my

whole four years of college.

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Yeah.

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, yeah.

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Then my life totally fell apart.

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Like it does in beauty school.

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Right.

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And then it got back together

and it's been great ever since.

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I love that.

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So are you from North Carolina?

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That's where I mostly grew up.

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We kinda moved around a little

bit, Georgia, Florida, but then

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ended up in North Carolina and

elementary school and kind of stayed.

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Okay.

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Yeah.

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I always say like where you

graduate from high school was.

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Yeah, North Carolina.

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My family is still there, so, okay.

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So go back a lot.

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Okay.

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So what brought you to Atlanta?

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Oh man, van Michael.

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Oh, let's circle around to our connection.

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So I was going to innovate an Institute

and van came to one of our career fairs.

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And towards the end of beauty

school, my life fell apart.

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Like I said, yeah, my husband

who I'm married to now, we were

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dating then and we broke up.

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Uh, huh.

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And I was like, fuck you.

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I'm out.

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So I was like, oh, this

guy from Atlanta came.

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Maybe I can go work at that salon.

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So I moved here.

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Yeah.

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I mean in his accent as wild, right?

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Like vans, accent he's

from that south Georgia.

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And I was like, Ooh, where's he from?

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And then you realize it's like Southern.

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Yeah.

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Like real Southern.

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Um, so yeah, I moved to

Atlanta to work at van Michael.

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So that's where our first you

and I intersect right there.

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Yeah.

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Which location did you work out?

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I started, , I was an assistant

at, , Virginia Highlands.

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Okay.

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And then I was on the

floor and Sandy Springs.

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Oh my God.

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I started at Sandy Springs.

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Oh, I would have known if we had

overlapped, obviously, do we want to

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talk about what years we were there?

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, I was there, it was like 2002, 2003.

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Okay.

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So I was there after you.

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I was like 2005.

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Wow.

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So we just missed each other 2000.

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Thousand six, 2007.

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Yeah.

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Wow.

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Crazy.

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Right.

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It was Manny.

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Manny there when you worked there, Manny?

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Yes.

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Is it Manny still there, man.

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He's not still there.

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Okay, well, Manny was there.

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Okay.

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Manny is one of the most eccentric

human beings I've ever met.

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To this day.

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And I remember he goes through these

phases with lunch, where he would bring

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in the same thing for like six months.

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And when I was there, it

was a pineapple and entire.

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Wait, was it already cut up?

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So he would come like really?

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It's like five minutes between clients

with this jargon, saber and his pineapple.

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To oh my God.

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And you can picture this though.

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I can totally picture it.

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I did not experience

pineapples with Manny, so no.

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No bunch of when you were there.

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I don't remember.

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I think I was just probably, I

don't remember a lot of those years.

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That's okay.

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Yeah.

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I was young.

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And, uh, yeah, I don't

remember that actually.

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I spent most of my time.

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I mean, the majority of the time

I was working for the company

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was in, , Virginia Highlands.

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Okay.

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And so via Michael's departmentalized

where you cut or color color.

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Okay.

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And then are you, do you do both now?

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I do both now.

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So when I left there, I

moved to New York city.

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Okay.

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And didn't really feel in alignment for me

to go work at another big salon like that.

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Um, so I worked at a really small

rock and roll salon called mud honey.

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I know it was amazing.

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I mean like so many raw.

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I did Sebastian box color once.

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Um, excuse me.

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I know that's fucking cool.

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I know.

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I mean as that yes.

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It's cool, but you know, it was

like a big rock and roll salon.

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So I worked there for the first couple

of years I was there and then, , some

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people I worked with opened another one

called Graceland and it was like a half.

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Layer tattoo, shop half hair salon.

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It was amazing.

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So I got to kind of do

it all when I was there.

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Is that when you started getting

tattooed gems that got a several tattoos.

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I have a few.

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I know people are always

like, how many do you have it?

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I'm like it's percentage,

body coverage at this point.

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I think there's no.

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I don't know.

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I don't know.

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, no, I started getting tattooed

when I was in college because

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I worked at a tattoo shop.

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And the town I went to.

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Cool.

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Hey mate.

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I've always made my parents really angry.

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So.

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Maybe it's it's switched over.

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Thank God I turned out.

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Okay.

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Right.

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Cause you know, I was going to

ruin my life with these tattoos.

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It's so, and hair school.

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Uh, correct.

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So there's so many.

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Negative connotations with hairdressers.

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That were idiots and party animals,

and then people with tattoos.

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And it's like, I'm not as tattooed

as you, but I have quite a few.

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Yeah.

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There was a period of time to where my

parents were like, what the fuck are you?

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Okay.

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And you're like, are you.

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Are you okay?

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These are your problems actually.

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This is actually all about you.

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Yeah.

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But I think you and I are agreed

examples of like, we're not idiots.

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We're like successful entrepreneurial

women who happened to be here,

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dressers who have tattoos.

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Right.

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And so it's really rewarding to me to

kind of, uh, Break some of those molds,

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cause they're so stupid for sure.

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I mean, my parents were, my dad was

really, you know, my parents are very

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traditional in the way they do things.

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And I wouldn't say that either one of

them love their job, but it was a steady

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job that they got paid really well.

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They got pensions with like,

my mom worked for the state.

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My dad worked for the federal government.

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So.

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They knew they'd be set up.

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And so they wanted that for me too.

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Yeah.

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And they went to people who

charged $25 for a haircut.

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And so they were really worried.

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Yeah.

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And I was like, that's not going to be me.

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Yeah.

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That's not going to be me.

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I promise you.

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That's not going to be me.

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And look at me now.

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I love that.

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My, this is so funny.

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, I had a conversation with my

mom once, so I was, I went to

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Amsterdam for a long weekend.

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It's a good emotional support, drip.

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And I had been able to get a lunch

reservation at our peg, which is a

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three Michelin star restaurant in Paris.

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, and I have a client who's a fortune 500

CEO and, and he's a good friend to you.

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, and he was splitting his time

between Atlanta and London and he was

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going to be in London at the time.

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And I was cutting his hair the

week or two before the trip.

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And I was like, oh my God, I was able

to get this reservation at our patch.

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I'm gonna go to Paris for the day.

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Dah.

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And he's like, Ooh, I'll be in London.

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Like perhaps I could join you for lunch.

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And I was like, oh, every reservation

for one is a reservation for two.

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That's right.

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Unless they're putting

you at the bar, I guess.

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And I was like, let me call,

but I'm sure it's no problem.

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So I call my mom and I'm like, Hey,

I'm getting on a train to go to Paris,

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to have lunch at a three Michelin star

restaurant with a fortune 500 CEO.

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And she's like, Erica,

I was always so worried.

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You were going to be poor.

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I'm like mom.

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It's okay.

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Look.

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Oh, my.

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That was just such a lovely day.

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And I.

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I'm a tattooed hairdresser,

having lunch with.

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You know what I mean?

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Yeah, that shouldn't be, but

this guy is like a great friend.

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Um, and that's just like, hairdressing

is the vehicle for relationships.

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Oh my.

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Contributions like that.

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Absolutely.

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So I think it's important to share

stories so that people know that if

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your kid wants to get into something

creative, It's not the kiss of death.

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I think it depends on the kid too.

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You know what I mean?

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Your actual drive and your passions

and why you're making these choices,

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but I'm super proud of what I've done.

433

I'm sure you feel the same way.

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Yeah.

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And I'm not done, correct.

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Like, I'm going to start it.

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You guys I'm in my forties and this time

of my life, I've never been so confident.

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Yes.

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I've never felt so powerful.

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I have never been so ready

to just like welcome at all.

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And so I don't even think, you know,

I'm like, I am just getting started.

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I love that.

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And if this is my beginning, then

fuck, it's going to be great.

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You know, I do know.

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Uh, I'll also say Jen, you're like I'm

in my forties, but you wouldn't know

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because Jen also sees Mandy, oh my God.

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Mandy.

448

And, , Dr.

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Susan has stopped for my Botox

and Kelly painter down the

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street who has an amazing spa.

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I mean, I have like a skin care team

that is keeping me looking cute.

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Yes.

453

It's super important.

454

And to not gatekeep, like.

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I'm like, I will never

lie about what I've done.

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Like.

457

I'm not going to lie about.

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I don't want to set any false

pretenses, but I also am not trying

459

to age faster than I have to.

460

No, let's keep it cute.

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Yeah, it feels good to look good at times.

462

And that's also, we know that

because we make people feel that way.

463

We stare in a mirror all

day long, a hundred percent.

464

And I am the first one to

admit that that was hard to do.

465

Yeah.

466

You know, like sometimes our clients sit

down, I'm sure you've experienced this.

467

And they're just like, oh, I

can't even look at myself today.

468

And you're like, bitch, me too.

469

All day.

470

All day.

471

For an hour.

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So my Botox helps me get through

the day a hundred percent where

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I can be expressive enough.

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But not have too many lines

on my face and that's just me.

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Well, the key for me is like,

I don't want static lines.

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I don't want resting

face with crazy lines.

477

Oh, yeah.

478

That's when I'm like, all right, let's

do a little softened me up for sure.

479

Sure.

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And I don't know if you have this,

but I have a surprising amount of

481

male clients who are getting Brotox.

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I'm like, I look, I

always look angry cause.

483

Without realizing what they think hard,

they scowl and they're 11 get pronounced.

484

And so I'm just, I think

everybody should get are driving.

485

Yeah.

486

And you're just like, for some

reason, a lot of the men I know

487

don't want to wear sunglasses.

488

And you're like, you're just squinting.

489

I mean, my husband's one of them.

490

He's like, okay with the sunglasses

now, but he loses them a lot.

491

So then he doesn't have them and I'm

like, you are just squinting and he's

492

got all these lines around his eyes.

493

I mean, he still looks

cute and distinguished.

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He likes.

495

I don't like mine.

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That's fine.

497

And that's fair.

498

That's fair.

499

Well, it meant to you.

500

It's like they get great hairs and

you're like, oh, how dapper and swabbing.

501

ULA silver Fox.

502

Not quite the same for us.

503

Well, we can change that narrative.

504

We can change it while getting rid of.

505

Yeah.

506

Exactly.

507

Exactly.

508

Well, listen, I'm just like you do you.

509

Yes.

510

And if that is not doing

any of the things amazing.

511

Yeah.

512

It's like, no, one's earning extra points

in my book for anything that they do.

513

I just want them to be authentic.

514

Yes.

515

I agree.

516

I had a client the other day who

listened to my Mandy episodes and

517

went for a consultation and she

was like, I realized I'm not ugly.

518

I'm just poor.

519

I was like, I didn't realize.

520

We're sending.

521

I'm like, yes, honey.

522

Yeah.

523

And maybe you want to

go on vacation instead?

524

Yeah.

525

Or maybe you're saving up to buy a house

or maybe, I mean, luckily we're in this

526

business and we can trade for things.

527

Yes.

528

So I barter.

529

As much as I can.

530

I would love to trade my

services for other services.

531

I get dog food.

532

I get facials.

533

I get massage.

534

I get, I mean, it's everything right?

535

I fully support that.

536

So, you know, Tara can do involved

then the man don't know that's right.

537

The man don't know.

538

I love that.

539

, so Jen, you, your primary

thing is owning creature.

540

, but you also have, uh,

dare I say, a side hustle.

541

You're a doula.

542

Yeah.

543

How the fuck did that?

544

Uh, well, I mean, I

have two kids on my own.

545

And when I was pregnant with my first

son, which was not expected, Ray and I had

546

just moved to New York, , he had gotten

into this pretty terrible accident where

547

he was hit by a truck, riding his bike.

548

He ended up in the ICU and I think we just

made a I'm so glad you didn't die, baby.

549

And so I didn't have, we

were in New York city.

550

We were in our mid twenties.

551

You're practically a teen

parent seems to say, 'cause

552

like nobody has kids that young.

553

We didn't have any friends with.

554

The kids, right.

555

Our families weren't there.

556

I just felt so alone and my

birth, , Ray was there, but I mean,

557

I had Julian, he just turned 15.

558

So doulas were like a thing that

was mentioned, but I had never

559

had any experience with that.

560

I had a midwife.

561

She was fantastic.

562

But I don't know.

563

I felt really lonely in that process.

564

And you kind of understand, like, this

is, we don't live with our tribe anymore.

565

Right.

566

And like women are so important or just

supportive people in your life that can

567

see you through something like that.

568

Like, Yeah, Ray couldn't show

up for me the way that someone

569

who had been through it could.

570

Right.

571

Absolutely.

572

He's just not possible for him.

573

Yeah.

574

It doesn't occur to men.

575

Like they don't know.

576

Yeah.

577

Like it just doesn't, they, their

bodies don't do the same thing.

578

He's in that place of like,

I just want you to be okay.

579

Yeah.

580

But I don't really know

what to do to make you okay.

581

And so I started going on a journey

of, of wanting to support other women

582

through their pregnancies and birth.

583

Um, after.

584

The birth of my first kid.

585

And then I had a doula

when, , I had my second son.

586

Okay.

587

And it was just a completely different

experience for me and my partner.

588

Right.

589

Like he was able to just be there.

590

And process it.

591

And I just want to do

that for other people.

592

And it's been very

rewarding and beautiful.

593

And this is something you've

been doing for awhile.

594

I have my oldest baby,

I think is, oh my God.

595

Courtney is going to kill me.

596

I don't remember.

597

Uh, 11.

598

No.

599

I'll interrupt the hesitation.

600

Yeah.

601

My oldest baby has over 10.

602

Perfect.

603

Around Ted.

604

I don't, I don't know.

605

It's been a long time or

a decade over a decade.

606

Okay.

607

So Jen, I'm not a kid person.

608

Uh, but for.

609

I wasn't either.

610

Oh, interesting.

611

Yeah.

612

, for people who don't know what is the main

difference between a midwife and a doula?

613

So a doula doesn't do anything.

614

Medical.

615

Okay.

616

Right.

617

Like, I'm not checking a survey

checks, no blood pressure, no

618

telling you what you need to do.

619

Like when you need to go to the

hospital, we're just there to support.

620

The person who's giving birth.

621

Right.

622

Okay.

623

So rubbing their back words of

affirmation, like everybody's different

624

music, essential oils, massage, like just,

there's so many different things that you

625

do, but you're purely a support person.

626

Okay.

627

And an advocate, right.

628

If you end up going to a hospital

and there's questions, like I'm the

629

person that can kind of help walk

through what some of those procedures

630

look like and why they're being done.

631

And maybe why the doctor

says you need XYZ, you know?

632

Sure.

633

That's awesome.

634

Yeah.

635

, I have always felt a calling to do

the exact opposite and a death doula.

636

I love that.

637

Do you know any, , I

know a couple of people.

638

Yeah.

639

One night we lives in Alaska now

and a doula friend of mine who

640

is, , has like talked to me about

doing some of that stuff too.

641

Well, we spend all this time supporting,

like bringing life into the world.

642

Right.

643

And supporting people through

that process and like end of life.

644

It's we're all, it's all it's going

to happen to all of us, right?

645

Correct.

646

So many, so many unknowns when it

comes to that, especially for the

647

people who are supporting that person.

648

I do think that once you get to

that, like end of life stage, most

649

people are probably like, Comfortable

or they're easing into their own

650

process of knowing what's happening.

651

But yeah, their loved ones who are there.

652

They might know what what's happening.

653

What's normal, what's not normal.

654

And so the death doula thing is amazing.

655

I'm super into it.

656

And it's something that I've always

thought like, oh, that'll be like a

657

later act in my life type of thing.

658

But listening to you, being able

to do both of these at the same

659

time, I'm like maybe I shouldn't.

660

Maybe I should look into this

earlier than I would have thought.

661

I mean, I'm not a full

time doula by any means.

662

, the total number I birth.

663

So I've done a working doula.

664

We'll do those in like two months, right.

665

Yeah.

666

Great.

667

It can be selected.

668

Just like pop in.

669

Yeah.

670

And for me, I've only ever

been a doula for people that I

671

already have a relationship with.

672

Like I have never had a random client.

673

Okay.

674

And so there is this aspect that

I love that maybe a lot of doulas

675

don't get to experience of like

seeing these babies grow up.

676

Knowing them.

677

A lot of them are my clients.

678

Hannah, who works for me.

679

I.

680

Birth, both her babies with her.

681

Wow.

682

I know, amazing at home.

683

I mean, so I just have this ability

to just like, be with people yeah.

684

And see them.

685

I'm such a nurturer.

686

I love and I love doing that.

687

And I just love to make people feel good.

688

And I think that's why I do here.

689

Right?

690

Because we can like touch a lot of

people and, and help them to feel good.

691

And, you know, I'm sure you've heard,

, the expression that one or others.

692

An expression, but you know, people say

for hairdressers, you don't know what

693

happens in your client's private lives.

694

We know some of those stuff, but

like, For some of our guests, we may

695

be the only person laying a finger on

them in between the 6, 8, 12, however

696

many weeks between their employment.

697

Right equipments.

698

And it's so important that that

is like you said, a nurturing,

699

warm, like we provide that,

that human contact and touch.

700

Because they may not get it anywhere else.

701

Right.

702

And that's such a honor and privilege.

703

And, uh, I think that is something that

like for upcoming hairdressers, you

704

gotta really realize how big of a deal

that is cause your clients feel it.

705

Yeah.

706

, You've got to be able to

get in it with people.

707

Yeah.

708

Right.

709

And I, so when I moved back here

from New York, I actually taught

710

at the Aveda Institute really.

711

Because I had a new baby and my husband

was going freelance as a photographer.

712

And I was like, I would love a salary job.

713

One of my friends was the

director there at the time.

714

So I was an educator there and then

I was the lead educator there for the

715

last year that I was there, but okay.

716

I think Aveda is really good on that.

717

You've heard the day maker thing.

718

No.

719

Yeah.

720

Right.

721

Oh, yeah.

722

And as cheesy as it sounds,

it is really amazing.

723

The impact that you can have on

somebody and be a day maker for them.

724

Right.

725

And like, maybe there's

no one else in their life.

726

That can do that.

727

Yeah.

728

And I've had, I've had people in

my career that have reached out

729

to me afterwards and shared, you

know, I wasn't having a great day.

730

I was getting my hair.

731

I had one client that was like,

I was getting my hair done and

732

I was going to go in my life.

733

And talking to you helped

me gain some perspective.

734

And you know, I'm not saying that I'm

not like tooting my own horn there,

735

but that's a fucking huge deal.

736

That's a huge deal, right?

737

To be able to help somebody

process through trauma or

738

just something a hard day.

739

You.

740

You know, or a hard year

or a hard fucking life.

741

Yeah, right.

742

And we can really change it.

743

I mean, all you have to do

is like care for someone.

744

Sometimes that's all they need

is to feel genuinely cared for.

745

And scene.

746

Absolutely.

747

And I always say to you, it's like,

I'm a, I'm a huge advocate for therapy.

748

, I love like, yeah, we

are therapists who are.

749

Um, and I call it like trickle-down

therapy, but I have clients who leave

750

and it's like, we have navigated big

life issues throughout their appointment.

751

And they're like, man, this is

so much more than a hair service.

752

And I'm like, yeah, that's correct.

753

Yeah.

754

And sometimes it's not, sometimes people

come in and they work on their laptop.

755

Yes.

756

And they're like taking a

meeting and that's fine too.

757

Yeah.

758

That was fine too.

759

But I'd say the majority of my

clients and my chair, we are

760

experienced with one another.

761

Yeah.

762

The connection is just it's irreplaceable

and it's, you know, How long have

763

you been working behind the chair?

764

Since 2005.

765

Okay.

766

So.

767

Almost 20 years.

768

Holy shit.

769

Yeah.

770

, you know, we've watched people like

you're saying with the doula stuff,

771

it's like, it's, it's such a pleasure.

772

I've watched people, you

know, struggle with dating.

773

Meet their husband, get married, have a

baby change jobs, buy a house and like

774

watching people's life and career arcs.

775

In six week increments.

776

Yeah.

777

Is so special.

778

Yeah.

779

And so fucking cool.

780

Just like the honor of my life.

781

Totally.

782

And I think that there are a few other

professions that are that rewarding and

783

where you can make good money and people

fight over us in divorces sometimes.

784

Uh, Have you ever had.

785

Yeah.

786

But like who wins you in the divorce?

787

I have a yes.

788

Usually I'll pick, uh, well, yeah, if

somebody cheated on somebody or there's

789

some like obvious, horrible thing

happened, I'm like, I'm sorry, but yeah.

790

Yeah.

791

Um, but other times, like I do have

divorced people and that I'm just like,

792

I'll never book you at the same time.

793

Yeah, I'll make sure that

there's no overlap here.

794

, but yeah, that is a,

that's a super big deal.

795

Yeah.

796

Who wins the hairdresser.

797

Yeah.

798

Yeah.

799

Who gets to in Jones.

800

It's like, , did you see in

the nineties that couple, that

801

embarrassing couple in divorce court,

arguing over their beanie baby.

802

On the floor.

803

Passing them back jokes on them.

804

They're still not worth anything.

805

But the prince has done.

806

Oh my God.

807

Oh my God.

808

It's so funny that hairdresser

was like, I don't want either one.

809

Yeah, exactly.

810

I'm not here.

811

Right?

812

None of that.

813

Yeah.

814

, do you ever have to fire clients?

815

Yeah.

816

Yeah.

817

It doesn't happen a lot and it doesn't

really happen much in my chair, but

818

being a salon owner, I have to step in.

819

, we're kind of a really, you know, You're

taught to not talk about religion and

820

not talk about politics, but that's

just not what we do in the space.

821

And sometimes people

have really gross energy.

822

Yes.

823

Especially during the pandemic we

were coming back, you know, there

824

were a couple people that were like,

I can't wear a mask for my haircut

825

and I'm like, I'm here all day.

826

Yeah.

827

Okay.

828

I don't want to hear it.

829

I don't want to hear it.

830

I really don't.

831

I'm telling you that this is a right.

832

That was a big time where we

had to uninvite some people.

833

Yup.

834

You know, or just P I

don't tolerate disrespect.

835

So don't tolerate, , clients,

micro-managing stylists, like you're

836

here to there to get your hair

done or their partners sometimes.

837

I don't know if you have that,

but like when partners come in and

838

they want to try to tell you what

to do to the other person, and

839

you're just like, are you okay?

840

Yeah.

841

Blink twice, you know?

842

Yeah.

843

, it doesn't happen often, but

it's usually for some shitty

844

disrespect or lack of boundary.

845

I mean, at the beauty school

girl, it was like wilds.

846

Some of the things that happened

there that we had to ask.

847

We be able to leave for.

848

It was like, Ooh, at the special

person that's going for a $12 haircut.

849

The concert hall.

850

And wanting to complain

about it afterwards.

851

You know, I'll tell you what?

852

I became an amazing hairstylist

when I was teaching there, because

853

I had to fix a lot of stuff.

854

Yeah, a lot of stuff.

855

I mean, that's, uh, I, I tell people

and this may resonate with you too.

856

, I have a lot of clients that are

like, I want to open my own business.

857

Like, tell me about your

experience at, at, at.

858

And I'm like my biggest, the biggest way

that I learned is my fucking things up.

859

Totally.

860

Getting a letter in the mail that I didn't

send in some fucking form for something.

861

And I'm like, Right.

862

I'll pay my fine.

863

And then I'll learn for next time.

864

You only miss that business

license renewal one time.

865

You only miss it once.

866

And then you're like, my God.

867

Insane $750 fine or something like that.

868

Yes.

869

And I've done that.

870

And the worst part is that I

thought I had done, like, I'm a,

871

you see my notebook in front of me.

872

You are.

873

Human beings.

874

But I feel like they make

it intentionally hard.

875

Like there's one final step.

876

That's on a completely different website.

877

Totally.

878

You don't get any emails.

879

You have to by osmosis.

880

Make it so hard.

881

Yeah.

882

Have you seen the new updated?

883

Website.

884

, yeah, I think it's still confusing.

885

It's still confusing,

but it's a little better.

886

It's a little better.

887

It's slightly better.

888

You don't have to mail in a check anymore.

889

So.

890

And wait, do you enjoy all

the credit card points?

891

I guess?

892

Being able to use Amex.

893

Yeah, I try to explain to people I'm

like you don't, if you feel, if you

894

have an entrepreneurial spark and

you feel called to make a business

895

out of something that you do do it.

896

Just fucking do it.

897

No one actually knows what they're doing.

898

You learn as you fuck up.

899

Right.

900

, and same thing with hair.

901

It's like, you learn like, oh, if I hold

a layer at this degree and drop it, it's

902

not going to land like the way I wanted.

903

Or if I put a pastel blue toner on

yellow hair, what's going to happen.

904

It's going to turn fucking green.

905

Yeah.

906

Right.

907

Hashtag color theory,

hashtag color theory.

908

It's amazing what people

don't know about that.

909

Oh my God.

910

So I spent a solid decade

ish of my career teaching for

911

manufacturers and stuff like that.

912

And color theory is something that.

913

you know, women can perceive such

a bigger scale of color than men.

914

So I've always had.

915

Just a good eye for color and color

theory has always just made sense

916

to me, but semi-recently my, , like

condo building, they repainted and

917

I'm just like, oh, Do you hate it?

918

And this neutral does not compliment

the tone in this accident.

919

What fucking idiot picked these.

920

And everyone's like, what

are you talking about?

921

Can't you see it.

922

See, and I'm just like,

you don't understand.

923

And I'm just like, you literally don't

understand, but it's like, it's a curse.

924

I know.

925

Through life, knowing color theory.

926

And no, we ain't got a

missed opportunity or.

927

The totally clashes.

928

I mean, it.

929

Rocks my world.

930

Or just knowing good hair and bad hair.

931

I mean, I've trained my children

that I'll get a tap on the shoulder

932

and they're like, mom, did you say.

933

Did you see over there?

934

And I'm like, E.

935

So I love that I'm

training them to have that.

936

I, yes.

937

Yeah.

938

I love when people like I'll have

guests who are like on vacations

939

and send me a picture of just

like, goddamn look, look at that.

940

There are those externships.

941

I know I'm terrible to watch a

movie with or a TV show to where

942

you're just like, what is that way?

943

Why is it so bad?

944

Yes.

945

What are those colors?

946

Yes, a hundred percent.

947

, did you watch, or do

you watch love is blind.

948

I only watched the first season.

949

Okay.

950

Cause I kind of felt like the

magic was gone for me after that.

951

That's fair.

952

I don't know how magical

the first season was to be.

953

Exactly.

954

Exactly.

955

There was a gal on this

most recent season.

956

And this I'm not a reality show person

I should state, but there's something

957

about this one that just gets me.

958

Um, but this chick, she's this cute

blonde girl, but she wore this like

959

aggressive, like quarterly orange blush,

and anytime she was on screen, all.

960

All I could do was just

like stare at her Blash.

961

I couldn't handle it.

962

You're like, who's letting her

show up like that literally.

963

And it's like, Tell her.

964

She has no friends.

965

That's exactly has no.

966

Yes, I.

967

And by the end of the season, you're

like, oh, she actually has no friends.

968

So then that tracks.

969

And that tracks.

970

Yeah, she's one of those girls

that's like, Hey, Hey girls.

971

And you're like, I love women.

972

I love women are amazing.

973

Women are you dumb?

974

I mean, I love all of

the women in my life.

975

Yeah, for sure.

976

Correct.

977

And that you need people around

you to be like, Hey, like, okay,

978

you remember when I'm sober, browse

became a thing I'm like dry, like.

979

I leaned a little too

hard in that momentarily.

980

And my best friend was

like, what the fuck?

981

What are you doing?

982

Hi browse.

983

And I was like, you know what?

984

I appreciate the call.

985

Maybe more robust than the yeah.

986

You're like you.

987

I have a yeah.

988

Yeah.

989

She's like they get easy.

990

Stop brushing them straight up, correct?

991

Yeah.

992

It'll curve is okay.

993

Phil.

994

Do you remember when it was like,

you just wanted to see the hairs

995

and like nothing in between?

996

Yes.

997

I know.

998

Well, I've never had that problem.

999

I over plucked in them in the nineties.

00:33:48,692 --> 00:33:50,762

And so she's living with us as far.

00:33:50,792 --> 00:33:52,382

Our sprout for the rest of her life.

00:33:52,592 --> 00:33:54,542

Are you microbladed I've done it before.

00:33:54,572 --> 00:33:55,052

Okay.

00:33:55,112 --> 00:33:56,012

Yeah, it doesn't really.

00:33:56,042 --> 00:33:56,672

Yeah.

00:33:57,032 --> 00:33:58,322

I feel like my skin is too oily.

00:33:58,322 --> 00:34:00,872

It kind of falls out and then I

have a really hard time laying

00:34:00,872 --> 00:34:02,042

on a table for that long.

00:34:02,492 --> 00:34:03,902

Being carved on wait, but.

00:34:04,172 --> 00:34:05,342

You're covered in tattoos.

00:34:06,422 --> 00:34:07,682

One hour increments, different.

00:34:07,682 --> 00:34:09,482

Cause you can like text and

fuck around on your phone.

00:34:09,482 --> 00:34:09,992

Usually.

00:34:10,022 --> 00:34:10,592

That's true.

00:34:10,862 --> 00:34:11,431

Hi stuff.

00:34:11,431 --> 00:34:13,172

You're just like, and you

can see what's going on.

00:34:13,172 --> 00:34:15,062

There's something about like

someone carving something into

00:34:15,062 --> 00:34:16,232

your face and you can't really see.

00:34:16,232 --> 00:34:18,092

That's not very comfortable for me.

00:34:18,152 --> 00:34:18,632

That's fair.

00:34:19,322 --> 00:34:21,931

So I'm just going to sit that one

out and every time have you seen

00:34:21,931 --> 00:34:24,692

those videos on Instagram where

they make it look like it's wild?

00:34:24,962 --> 00:34:27,842

Oh Frick, the person I would die.

00:34:28,052 --> 00:34:28,592

I'm leaving.

00:34:29,492 --> 00:34:30,992

I might punch the person.

00:34:30,992 --> 00:34:33,601

I'm like, cause you can tell sometimes

that they are not prepared for that.

00:34:33,601 --> 00:34:35,462

And they're just like,

oh, like, oh my God.

00:34:36,512 --> 00:34:41,101

But the girls who were like,

hi, I ain't going to lie.

00:34:41,252 --> 00:34:42,572

Is it going to chill out?

00:34:42,601 --> 00:34:44,012

You're like, no, it's not.

00:34:44,072 --> 00:34:45,181

It's not going to chill out.

00:34:45,331 --> 00:34:46,862

They're basically touching brows.

00:34:46,982 --> 00:34:47,312

Yeah.

00:34:47,822 --> 00:34:50,132

And they're touching and then they

wipe it off and you're like, oh,

00:34:51,782 --> 00:34:52,532

Yeah, I would.

00:34:53,402 --> 00:34:55,172

I'm a little bit of a

control freak like that.

00:34:55,172 --> 00:34:57,992

I think I would not be a

good recipient of that prank.

00:34:58,202 --> 00:35:00,662

And I love a break, but

like, oh, Half of my face.

00:35:00,722 --> 00:35:04,322

No, never with my face, unless

Mandy does something to us.

00:35:04,412 --> 00:35:04,862

Yeah.

00:35:05,162 --> 00:35:06,572

But Mandy wouldn't because she had.

00:35:07,382 --> 00:35:10,052

She would never, but sometimes the things

that happened to your face after those

00:35:10,052 --> 00:35:12,782

amazing treatments, Can be a little wild.

00:35:12,782 --> 00:35:13,832

Yeah, that's true.

00:35:14,102 --> 00:35:15,962

If you haven't listened to

that episode, go listen to it.

00:35:16,052 --> 00:35:16,382

Okay.

00:35:16,502 --> 00:35:16,592

Go.

00:35:17,042 --> 00:35:17,972

She tells some stories.

00:35:18,002 --> 00:35:18,062

Do.

00:35:18,092 --> 00:35:20,692

You know what , I was talking

to a friend of mine who is not

00:35:20,692 --> 00:35:22,192

a skincare and makeup girly.

00:35:22,372 --> 00:35:26,332

, but she was like, I felt like I

learned a lot in those episodes,

00:35:26,362 --> 00:35:29,242

but I also felt really dumb because

I don't think I know like the bees.

00:35:29,542 --> 00:35:30,592

And I was like, you know what?

00:35:30,592 --> 00:35:34,162

There was just kind of an underlying

assumption that you would know something.

00:35:34,762 --> 00:35:37,372

So I'm actually, , we're scheduling

it right now, but Mandy's going

00:35:37,372 --> 00:35:39,622

to come back on and we're going

to do kind of like a one care.

00:35:39,682 --> 00:35:40,402

1 0 1.

00:35:41,242 --> 00:35:44,062

What are the steps of just

like a basic skincare routine?

00:35:44,062 --> 00:35:46,762

Like what should you be doing

before you even enter the world

00:35:46,762 --> 00:35:48,382

of all of these lasers and peels?

00:35:48,532 --> 00:35:51,022

Like, what's just your, what

should your home routine be?

00:35:51,112 --> 00:35:51,922

Just look like.

00:35:52,522 --> 00:35:53,392

And she's amazing, right?

00:35:53,422 --> 00:35:56,122

She's just like a nerd when

it comes to that stuff.

00:35:56,572 --> 00:35:57,202

Same.

00:35:57,232 --> 00:35:57,352

Yeah.

00:35:57,682 --> 00:36:02,032

Like, if you can talk to me about what

you do for hours, I fucking love it.

00:36:02,962 --> 00:36:04,252

All about enthusiasm.

00:36:04,372 --> 00:36:06,052

Um, like she can go on and on.

00:36:06,082 --> 00:36:06,442

I know.

00:36:07,072 --> 00:36:07,402

Love it.

00:36:07,762 --> 00:36:09,322

I wish I had a VJ story for you though.

00:36:09,322 --> 00:36:10,372

I'm feeling inadequate.

00:36:10,402 --> 00:36:11,392

Yeah, that's true.

00:36:11,482 --> 00:36:12,892

She had so many good.

00:36:13,132 --> 00:36:14,602

That was out of control.

00:36:14,842 --> 00:36:16,792

I had like seen her only professionally.

00:36:16,912 --> 00:36:18,292

Did you just say Carmen Electra?

00:36:19,552 --> 00:36:19,852

Yeah.

00:36:21,652 --> 00:36:22,462

Please go listen.

00:36:22,882 --> 00:36:26,062

Well, and of course I immediately

Googled her and I was like, I fucking

00:36:26,122 --> 00:36:28,462

remember being in middle school.

00:36:28,552 --> 00:36:31,132

And saying, I know I'm

seeing her crazy ass.

00:36:31,462 --> 00:36:32,062

I know.

00:36:32,662 --> 00:36:33,712

I looked her up too.

00:36:34,012 --> 00:36:34,462

Yeah.

00:36:34,642 --> 00:36:35,122

Immediately.

00:36:35,572 --> 00:36:37,942

Immediate immediate, immediate, so cool.

00:36:37,972 --> 00:36:38,602

So crazy.

00:36:38,752 --> 00:36:39,412

This is what we do.

00:36:39,412 --> 00:36:39,622

Right.

00:36:39,622 --> 00:36:41,302

We learn things about people all the time.

00:36:41,332 --> 00:36:41,752

Yeah.

00:36:41,932 --> 00:36:43,372

Uh, and it's lovely.

00:36:43,662 --> 00:36:46,062

, and I also think something, bringing

it back to like the art of the

00:36:46,062 --> 00:36:47,352

conversation for hairdressers.

00:36:47,652 --> 00:36:51,342

Knowing what aspects of

your personality to play up?

00:36:51,372 --> 00:36:55,392

What aspects to play down and how

to kind of, , carve out different

00:36:55,392 --> 00:37:00,012

portions of yourself, depending on the

recipient or the audience of any given

00:37:00,012 --> 00:37:01,872

appointment or conversation or whatever.

00:37:02,202 --> 00:37:05,622

That's not something that's easy

to teach and cosmetologists now.

00:37:06,042 --> 00:37:08,352

But it's you either got it or you don't.

00:37:08,442 --> 00:37:09,402

Yeah.

00:37:09,492 --> 00:37:12,072

And it's, and then sometimes

it's a conversation of like,

00:37:12,072 --> 00:37:13,302

just know when to be quiet.

00:37:13,362 --> 00:37:15,702

If you don't have the

ability to like shift.

00:37:16,302 --> 00:37:18,372

, because we're we're actors like that.

00:37:18,372 --> 00:37:18,732

Right.

00:37:18,822 --> 00:37:21,312

And I think you and I are in a

place in our career where we're not

00:37:21,312 --> 00:37:23,142

really getting a ton of new clients.

00:37:23,602 --> 00:37:27,952

, so we can just kind of be authentic

with, with who we've got and we

00:37:27,952 --> 00:37:31,192

kinda know, so I don't really have

to adjust myself too much anymore.

00:37:31,222 --> 00:37:31,642

Yeah.

00:37:31,792 --> 00:37:34,402

I'd say maybe I have like 3%.

00:37:34,942 --> 00:37:37,312

Where I got to have a little

adjustment and it's mostly

00:37:37,312 --> 00:37:38,602

me just shutting the fuck up.

00:37:38,692 --> 00:37:38,962

Yeah.

00:37:40,162 --> 00:37:41,782

For any relationship in your life?

00:37:42,112 --> 00:37:43,162

When to shut the fuck up.

00:37:43,252 --> 00:37:43,612

Yeah.

00:37:43,822 --> 00:37:46,282

One of the most important

really than a human being.

00:37:46,312 --> 00:37:47,092

Yeah, totally.

00:37:47,212 --> 00:37:49,402

And I think my clients know me

well enough now that they can

00:37:49,402 --> 00:37:50,872

just be like, I'm having a day.

00:37:51,112 --> 00:37:51,772

Absolutely.

00:37:51,922 --> 00:37:57,112

I just can't today or, or they just want

to sit and cry or, you know, I've had

00:37:57,112 --> 00:38:00,142

people message me and just say like,

oh, am I double booked with you today?

00:38:00,142 --> 00:38:00,652

And I'm like, yeah.

00:38:00,652 --> 00:38:02,392

And they're like, I just

think I need my own time.

00:38:02,392 --> 00:38:03,592

And so we work it out right.

00:38:03,652 --> 00:38:05,602

But most of the time.

00:38:05,662 --> 00:38:07,342

Yeah, I can just show up and be me.

00:38:07,582 --> 00:38:08,362

Which is great.

00:38:08,752 --> 00:38:13,432

And I think too, one of the rewards of

seeing the same people for years and

00:38:13,432 --> 00:38:16,762

years is without them having to send

that text, you can pick up on their

00:38:16,762 --> 00:38:18,082

energy as soon as they walk in the door.

00:38:18,832 --> 00:38:20,572

I knew exactly what version of you.

00:38:20,572 --> 00:38:21,562

They need that day.

00:38:22,042 --> 00:38:23,782

And you edit as needed.

00:38:24,322 --> 00:38:28,852

And I definitely have taken that skill

from the salon and applied it into my

00:38:28,852 --> 00:38:32,902

real life and well, and actually the

podcast episode I recorded last week,

00:38:32,932 --> 00:38:34,732

it was with two Arie Butler who was.

00:38:35,062 --> 00:38:37,852

Congressman John Lewis has

longest serving staffers.

00:38:37,942 --> 00:38:38,602

Wow.

00:38:38,692 --> 00:38:41,512

22 years and I sat down,

she sat exactly where you're

00:38:41,512 --> 00:38:42,712

sitting in the back about table.

00:38:43,162 --> 00:38:46,672

I quickly realized this is an episode

where I shut the fuck up and just left.

00:38:47,182 --> 00:38:48,022

So eloquent.

00:38:48,052 --> 00:38:50,902

So well-spoken has so much

knowledge and I was like, this is

00:38:50,902 --> 00:38:52,432

going to be the easiest episode.

00:38:52,642 --> 00:38:55,402

To edit ever, because I talked twice.

00:38:56,002 --> 00:38:58,852

It's just her being amazing

and she wants a podcast.

00:38:59,082 --> 00:39:01,422

, and so she's just like

well-spoken and she's like, yeah.

00:39:01,612 --> 00:39:04,762

, but I could see if I didn't have

that skillset from working behind

00:39:04,762 --> 00:39:07,822

the chair, trying to put too

much of myself into that episode.

00:39:08,212 --> 00:39:12,022

And I didn't need to be, I was just,

you know, a facilitator for her story.

00:39:12,292 --> 00:39:16,072

And, uh, I think that that's just like

something I'm super grateful that.

00:39:16,612 --> 00:39:17,902

Comes naturally now.

00:39:17,962 --> 00:39:18,172

Yeah.

00:39:18,172 --> 00:39:18,862

I love that.

00:39:19,012 --> 00:39:19,282

Yeah.

00:39:19,552 --> 00:39:22,972

And, you know, having, I mean, I

have 18 people who work for me now.

00:39:23,032 --> 00:39:23,272

Right.

00:39:23,302 --> 00:39:23,512

So.

00:39:23,602 --> 00:39:27,802

I, I think I have to adjust more with

them sometimes like everybody, the way

00:39:27,802 --> 00:39:31,912

that they receive feedback, because

I'm a very honest person, very honest.

00:39:32,242 --> 00:39:36,772

And blunt right to where I have

definitely hurt people's feelings.

00:39:36,832 --> 00:39:38,002

People who work for me.

00:39:38,332 --> 00:39:41,722

, because I have said something

too quick or too sharp.

00:39:42,142 --> 00:39:46,072

So I've learned to adjust myself in

that way, probably more so than with my

00:39:46,072 --> 00:39:49,942

clients now, because they just kind of are

steady flow of people that I'm used to.

00:39:50,302 --> 00:39:51,232

But every time.

00:39:51,502 --> 00:39:54,172

I'm talking to someone who

works for me now, it's kind of

00:39:54,172 --> 00:39:56,722

like I've learned to receive.

00:39:57,742 --> 00:40:01,192

And just be okay with not giving responses

right away, which is really hard for me.

00:40:01,492 --> 00:40:03,262

Cause I want to fix shit immediately.

00:40:03,262 --> 00:40:03,622

Right.

00:40:03,622 --> 00:40:05,302

So being able to like receive.

00:40:05,692 --> 00:40:06,982

And then just pause.

00:40:07,702 --> 00:40:08,602

And then follow up.

00:40:09,382 --> 00:40:11,362

It's a much better place to sit in.

00:40:11,392 --> 00:40:12,892

That's how I'm evolving.

00:40:13,282 --> 00:40:15,322

Learning to be a good boss.

00:40:15,352 --> 00:40:17,002

Like it's so easy as an employee.

00:40:17,182 --> 00:40:18,592

I wouldn't do things that way.

00:40:18,652 --> 00:40:18,862

Right.

00:40:18,862 --> 00:40:22,012

And then once you get into the other

side of things, it's, you know,

00:40:22,012 --> 00:40:23,212

I've definitely had some bad bosses.

00:40:23,212 --> 00:40:23,752

Don't get me wrong.

00:40:24,202 --> 00:40:29,362

But I I've found some empathy towards

other employers in the past because it's,

00:40:29,392 --> 00:40:32,692

it's difficult to be a good boss because

every employee needs a different version.

00:40:32,752 --> 00:40:33,382

Absolutely.

00:40:33,652 --> 00:40:34,072

Absolutely.

00:40:34,222 --> 00:40:35,392

But I'm like, you I'm.

00:40:35,782 --> 00:40:39,622

And there's never malice or negativity

in any of my intent, but sometimes

00:40:39,622 --> 00:40:41,182

I can just quickly be like, no, yes.

00:40:41,572 --> 00:40:43,642

I'm just a super decisive,

efficient person.

00:40:43,642 --> 00:40:43,732

And.

00:40:43,852 --> 00:40:44,782

I don't have to fuck around.

00:40:45,082 --> 00:40:47,542

But some people need a

little bit more softness.

00:40:48,022 --> 00:40:50,302

And if you don't meet them

without they shut down.

00:40:50,662 --> 00:40:51,502

No one's up.

00:40:52,792 --> 00:40:53,152

Yeah.

00:40:53,692 --> 00:40:57,232

Most people need a little more

softness, which is what I'm learning.

00:40:57,232 --> 00:40:59,032

Unless they've worked for me for 10 years.

00:41:00,022 --> 00:41:03,292

It's literally not personal and

like, and I tell people when I first

00:41:03,292 --> 00:41:06,402

hire somebody, I always ask, , how

do you like to receive feedback?

00:41:06,432 --> 00:41:06,702

Totally.

00:41:06,762 --> 00:41:08,352

Um, positive or negative.

00:41:08,542 --> 00:41:10,762

, and a lot of people will say like, oh,

I love feedback in the moment, dah.

00:41:11,212 --> 00:41:11,902

Incorrect.

00:41:11,932 --> 00:41:12,592

They don't.

00:41:12,622 --> 00:41:14,362

They really, really don't.

00:41:14,422 --> 00:41:14,812

Yeah.

00:41:15,262 --> 00:41:16,822

We don't totally.

00:41:16,822 --> 00:41:19,492

And so you gotta, you gotta

figure out how to navigate that.

00:41:19,582 --> 00:41:20,302

Absolutely.

00:41:20,422 --> 00:41:24,232

I always tell people, , if anything, I

can err on the side of being too Curt.

00:41:24,262 --> 00:41:26,782

And I know that about myself,

but I want you to know that if

00:41:26,782 --> 00:41:30,412

it's about a work topic, it's

literally never personal, right.

00:41:31,072 --> 00:41:33,562

I hope we both share the objective

that we want to just resolve an

00:41:33,562 --> 00:41:35,152

issue and keep it fucking moving.

00:41:35,482 --> 00:41:37,762

And yeah, we come with a disclaimer.

00:41:38,152 --> 00:41:38,992

And that is it.

00:41:39,022 --> 00:41:41,932

Yeah, but I think we wouldn't

be successful if we didn't.

00:41:42,262 --> 00:41:44,242

Have that kind of decisive.

00:41:44,512 --> 00:41:47,002

And self-awareness and

all of these things.

00:41:47,002 --> 00:41:47,422

Right.

00:41:47,422 --> 00:41:48,322

And nobody's perfect.

00:41:48,322 --> 00:41:49,192

We're not robots.

00:41:49,192 --> 00:41:50,242

Nobody's perfect.

00:41:50,332 --> 00:41:52,702

And we're all learning all the time.

00:41:53,302 --> 00:41:53,752

Right.

00:41:53,752 --> 00:41:58,132

And so, well, yeah, I mean,

I'm learning all the time.

00:41:58,702 --> 00:41:59,002

Yeah.

00:41:59,302 --> 00:42:00,502

Being a business owner.

00:42:01,252 --> 00:42:05,032

And employing people of

all different everything.

00:42:05,062 --> 00:42:05,632

Yeah.