About this episode:

Co-producer John Lyons and Host Kristen Cerelli talk about some of the connections that led them to start this podcast, including a mutual fascination with the process of human transformation.

Kristen Cerelli 0:01

I'm here today with Dr. John Lyons. Welcome, John.

John Lyons 0:52

Kristen, how are you?

Kristen Cerelli 0:53

I'm doing well. How are you? Good. I guess the first question I have is just tell me about the inspiration or the impetus for this podcast.

John Lyons 1:05

So we're working all over the world at this point, a lot of us but a lot of other countries as well, helping systems change, and helping particularly in behavioral health and child welfare. Helping those systems try to be as effective as possible. And what's clear is that we're understanding a lot about people. But there's still a lot that we don't know about how people actually change. So there's all sorts of theories, there's all sorts of therapeutic approaches, there's all sorts of interventions. But when it comes right down to it, we don't always have a clear idea of what the factors are that lead people to be able to change their lives in ways that makes their lives more fulfilling. So the end of this podcast, is to collect stories from different people in different places with different experiences to understand how they've changed and understand how they see their personal change processes.

Kristen Cerelli 2:07

I'm curious, I know a little bit about your world. And I know you have some acronyms. And one of the tools that you have is called Tea calm, transformational, collaborative outcomes management. So what got you interested? I mean, the word transformation is in one of your tools. So what got you interested in change as a concept?

John Lyons 2:33

Well, what got me interested is a recognition that the design of helping systems are not really about change. They're about paying people to spend time with people, when in fact, they should be about helping people change their lives and sell important way. That's really what help is. And it should be. And so I've been rather interested in how we actually create systems that are built to support people changing, not paying for 15 minute hours with a therapist, not paying for so many visits from a child welfare worker, but figuring out how to design a system that actually is incentivized to support people in a personal change process. And although that's really easy to say, it proves to be extremely difficult to do.

Kristen Cerelli 3:26

I was going to say it sounds really daunting.

John Lyons 3:30

It's very daunting. There's all sorts of historical and current reasons why people don't change, and even the change agents have trouble with their own change. So changing changes to help change is extremely difficult, ironically enough, that should be one would think that if anybody would embrace change, it would be people whose business it is to change. But actually all change is difficult. And so changing systems to shift from a focus on service delivery into transformational management is no small task. But I think one of the challenges, we don't really understand that much about how people change. So how on earth can we really design systems to support personal change until we fully grasp all the different pathways different people can take in their journeys towards becoming better people, better versions of themselves, whatever they mean by that.

Kristen Cerelli 4:35

So make that link for me as a as a lay person, sort of the relationship between change and population health.

John Lyons 4:43

So Population Health is the idea of, you know, there's all sorts of social determinants of our health so it goes outside of the medical services, health services is one thing but being healthy and having high well being is a whole different thing. There's all sorts of different factors that aren't directly a part of the health care system that influence our community's health and well being. And so the idea of population health is to help communities to help people within those communities, to live lives that are full, that are healthy, they'll have wellbeing, they're happy. And how do you actually create that? Typically, that involves people making some choices to overcome some challenges so that they can reach that goal of being happy and healthy and safe. So particularly when you start adding social determinants, those are things that disadvantaged people, it makes it that much harder for them in their journey towards health

Kristen Cerelli 5:46

and well being unpack that social determinants. What, what are some examples, so

John Lyons 5:50

let's things like, you know, if you're homeless, if you don't have stable housing, it's much harder to have a good nutrition, you don't have food security, have adequate health care, you don't even have housing, right. So if the weather is bad, then that's a challenge for your health and well being. So just in those sorts of ways, there's a number of different factors that are included in that if you have depression, sometimes it's harder for you to take your medication because you don't really have a positive outlook on life. And so somebody who's got both diabeetus, and depression is harder for them, they have a bigger obstacles to work through in order for them to maintain their insulin regimen, for instance. So there's a number of different factors that influence health, outside of just the physiology of health.

Kristen Cerelli 6:50

Do you think that across the board, there's some incentive or some something that motivates the average person regardless of their baseline to change?

John Lyons 7:04

I think there's some underlying desire from all of us to be the best people we can be. I think that almost everybody has that internal drive, some of us have greater challenges. Some of us even struggle with defining what that actually means. But I think all of us will want to try and be the best person that we can be. But we all start in different places, and we all choose a different definition of better, or the best person we could be the definition of that is very person.

Kristen Cerelli 7:39

Yeah. And that's, I mean, that's a very positive lens, a very positive way of looking at the human condition is to say that you think we really all are, we all are striving to be whole? I mean, what does better mean?

John Lyons 7:56

Well, I think that's where we get to conflict. Yeah, I think maybe that's a part of, and I think the definition of better will change across our lifespan, right? What we mean by better, when we're eight years old, is going to be very different than when we're 18 or 28, or 78. And so I think it's a shifting definition, even for each of us personally. And so it's not a static definition. And it's certainly if you go across people, there's a lot of different definitions, most of our conflict in our culture is a conflict over the definition of what our better selves are, and not so much that we want to be better ourselves. I know a lot of people, I don't know very many people who don't want to be better versions of themselves. But getting there, and defining that and having a clear vision of what that can be, is part of the challenge of change. So I'm wondering, as you hear people's stories, how they crystallize their idea of what it means that the their best self, you know, what is their goal? What is their aspiration? What are they trying to achieve?

Kristen Cerelli 9:01

I think that's such a great question. And I I wonder if I wonder how many people can really articulate that I think, I think maybe we all sort of have vague ideas, or depending on how we're strung some of us visualize this better life, or some of us write about this better life, or some, some of us just have a sense of what the better life would be, but to actually articulate who is my best self is its own special little task. And I don't think we don't really get asked that do we, in life?

John Lyons 9:38

Not a lot. I think maybe it's actually a feedback loop. And we don't really know clearly what that is until we start trying towards a certain vague direction. And it's actually in the feedback that we get from trying to move in a particular direction that we help help ourselves define it because I think it's fairly close to impossible task for any of us to sit at any moment and clearly articulate this is what it'd be if I were a mentor. So I think we begin to think about it, we can, but I think a lot of it is a feedback loop based on our experience and the feedback we get from others in our worlds to our environment, in terms of our change processes. You know, there's a, there's a famous psychologist, Anders Ericsson, who talks about the 10,000 hour rule, and to be in his model to be an expert in anything. You have to spend at least 10,000 hours with feedback. And so if you want to be an outstanding pianists to be want to be an Olympic ice skater, 10,000 hours with feedback. So I think the key thing to learning is this feedback and the key to each of our own journey, we all get 10,000 hours. That's that's not all that much time. That's about by the time we get to the age of reasoner. So we're awake for 10,000 hours. So the question is, what kind of feedback we get and how we learn from our feedback and how we evolve ourselves based on that kind of interaction with the world? I think that's how we ended up defining our idea of what we want to do to be a better version of ourselves

when you talk about feedback, is that both external feedback, like the idea of you know, an Olympic athlete getting feedback from a coach, or getting feedback, honestly, from their scores from judges, right. But is it also an internal thing?

Absolutely, yeah. So you can feel if you're a very experienced musician, and even problem when you're starting out, you could, you know, and you hit the wrong note, you can hear it you get, you're getting that internal feedback. You can feel from your body, things that are working and things that are not you can feel from your own anxiety. You know, when I first started working, I was a horrible public speaker, I would get very, very anxious. And I'd be giving myself feedback on that anxiety, I learned how to manage that, so that I could control it. And then you learn that you have to, you can't not be anxious, because anxiety gives you energy to give you passion. But you just have to learn how to take that feeling and channel it into animation, as opposed to hinder paralysis. So I think if that's a feedback process, you just have to learn from that.

What were some changes that you made, when you move from paralyzing anxiety and public speaking to your level of comfort now? Well, actually, there

was a Yeah, there was there was a seminal event actually, two things that happened. One was a sent all that one was a precipitating cause we call it in science, and the other is more of a maintaining factor. So the precipitating one is that I was very nervous speaker, I would write out my talks, and I would read them. So I was a brand new PhD and I got invited for a job talk at Virginia Commonwealth. And I wrote out my talk. And he was right when they introduce smart electrons. And so this electron control everything was back in the day where we used slide projectors, it was before PowerPoint, even before overheads, right with the slides that we we created and you just click forward. This lies like an old, like your grandparents travel show, you know. So it was it was like that, right? And so the lights went down. But the day before I lost my voice. So I had laryngitis, and the lights went down. And I didn't know how to operate the smart electron. So I didn't know how to turn on the light at the lectern. And so I couldn't see my notes. So I literally broke, I thought it knew a lavalier and I met the entire talk like this, right. And I didn't get the job. But I decided that nothing worse could possibly ever happen to me. I didn't die. Yeah, I made it through the top. I was able to talk extemporaneously, even though I sounded like a very sick frog. So obviously, I was never anxious after that, that pretty much cured me of the anxiety because like, Okay, I was imagining something bad happening. Nothing really bad happened. The other thing is I had a number of early career mentors who were outstanding speakers. And what I learned from them is that you just have to be yourself. If you're just you're genuine to whoever you are a little bit of a smart aleck. So so long as I can embed being a smart aleck into my talk, I can be myself and then that becomes genuine. And so I think those two things together have really helped me become a better public speaker. I did learn that I after I had this that disaster in Richmond, Virginia. I did learn that I got to To be relaxed, and if you're too relaxed, then you're not a very good speaker because you're boring. So I actually taught myself how to agitate myself. So I use the, the autogenic prompt from the old movie, all that jazz. So the Bob coursing character would say before he went out, it's a, it's showtime. So I would actually say that to myself, it's showtime. And then that would I use that to generate enough anxiety to work myself up into a level of animation that was desirable for the audience.

So you're speaking right into the feedback loop? And actually, that it's kind of it's a it's an ongoing process. You know, you're never perpetual, you're sort of at the soundboard moving the dials to get to that. Yes, balanced or ideal place of performance each time. I'm curious about something you said about causal analysis, because I think I asked you this about the science of change. But tell us a little bit about those things that impact change that that we can kind of pinpoint from outside.

Traditionally, we have sort of divided you know, science, they talk about predisposing factors. So these are things that sort of exist, before you decide to change. This is just who you are. Like, for instance, you know, when I was 20 years old, I was six foot tall and weighed 127 pounds. I would never be a sumo wrestler, right. So there's no way it's not possible. It's not within my array of possible life outcomes that I could choose to become a sumo wrestler. So those are predisposing, you know, who are you? You know, what's your biology? What's your intellect? What's your capacity? Right. Then there's precipitating causes. And that's the, you know, the old saw this, the straw that breaks the camel's back. Now precipitating causes are the things that we typically give the most credit to. Because they're, they tend to happen right before change happens. And they're usually vivid events. So like, by horrible speech in Richmond, Virginia, I've seen as a precipitating cause of releasing my reducing my anxiety, but that's just one factor. So predisposing, I do have the gift of gab, right. So I, I'm always been a talker, I just was nervous about talking in front of the people. So underlying my anxiety was the ability to talk spontaneously. So once that's released by freeing up the anxiety, then of course, I can talk. And then the maintaining causes are things that support change once they occur. So those are different, those are a different set of factors. And sometimes, this is why people who are recovering from alcoholism or drug abuse can't sometimes associate themselves with their old friends, because their old friends don't help them maintain their change, they want to bring them back to their using days back to their life. So oftentimes, when you have people giving up alcohol or drugs, they also have to give up their friendship network, their their acquaintances, their friends, the people they hang out with, because without maintenance support, it's very hard to maintain that kind of change. So those are the three main classes of causal fat considerations that as we think about our own change, you know, what's our range of possible aspirations or behaviors? What are the key events that kind of trigger us? And then how do we think about things that support us ongoing so that we can maintain and maintain any changes?

Is there as you as you think of those three categories? Is one sort of across the board more of a challenge? Like is it? Is it the maintenance of change that's more challenging, or is it overcoming some predisposition?

It depends, right? I don't think there's any clear rule. I think that typically people put way more salience on the precipitating causes, I think, sometimes what happens is, without a precipitating cause, it's hard to make a change, right, without some event that helps you get motivated, it's sometimes hard. And so what you will see is some people actually civitate their own event, right, they actually create a crisis in their life to allow themselves to change. So that's probably the one that gets the most attention. But it's not necessarily the most important they're all important and really did get us sustained, where you actually start out as one person and you shift yourself to be a different version of that person. That takes all three

I'm curious if you think change, like this idea of becoming better or your your, your better self or your best self. Does that person exist already? Inside most of us and some of the work is taking down the masks or the pretenses that we've learned in socialization? Or is, is the change really necessary to be to become that person?

That's? That's a great question. I don't honestly know the answer to that. I think maybe perhaps, as we hear stories from different people, we can get a better sense of that. I think that would be interesting to know, I suppose if you're thinking about it from a predisposing sort of perspective, than yes, the possibility of that better self is always there. But it's not there until it's actually there. So you in some ways, it's not helpful to say it was there, and he just opened it, it's that but that was might maybe that is helpful.

Yeah, there's something almost sort of magical about that kind of thinking, like you just meet waved your magic wand and your your, your best self sort of appeared. And it sort of could discount the the real work that change demands.

And that's sort of the whole problem that we have in terms of unpacking how we help people change is that there's a magical, you know, something, and then a miracle occurs, right? There's this, you know, this opaque box, you know, there's all these inputs into our lives. And then there's all the outputs, or aspirations or behavior, and what actually is happening inside of us is opaque, you can't really see it very clearly. And so I think there's more that we don't know that there is that we know. And so figuring that out, I think, is part of the journey that we're trying to embrace with this podcast. Yeah,

I think I loved it, when you told me about the black box, is that what you called it? That's the original name that you can't see you can't

see it, it's opaque, you cannot see it. So that's most even, even like the evidence based practices in therapy, there's still this kind of process that you just can't see. And it's sort of like an in magic occurs, you know, then a miracle occurs. And so something is happening outside of our ability to see it. And we can have people talk about it. But you can only get that first person observation of themselves, which of course, is not necessarily exactly what happened.

We'll be right back. Hi, this is Kristen Cerelli. And I hope you're enjoying this introductory episode of shift shift bloom. And my conversation with Dr. John Lyons about his vision for the podcast. Your advanced access to this episode, is our way of saying thank you for participating in the 2021 T. Com conference, you'll be able to listen to shift shift bloom wherever you get your podcasts. So stay tuned for news about the launch of season one, and watch your email for information about how you can unlock exclusive special features by becoming a patron. And now back to my conversation with John. Where's my brain? Oh, people should know a little bit about you and I and why I'm hosting this and, and share a story of how we met. Um, do you want to tell it?

I can tell. Or you can tell me we should talk because it's probably a slightly different story. Yeah. So the very first day, I came to orientation at the University of Kentucky and I went to a meeting of new faculty. And I, I'm the kind of person that if you make eye contact with me, I will talk to you. So you made eye contact with me, I started to talk to you and I predisposing our conversation, I'm very interested in alternative strategies and helping people and which I often think is really about building meaning in people's lives. It's about finding ways to think about things that are different. And so I was very interested in linking with people in fine arts around, you know, theater and arts as ways and music as alternative ways to help people express themselves and figure out better versions of themselves. And so, when I learned that you were in the theatre department, I thought, this is a perfect example, to start to build that network of people who have a alternative view of the world and of change, to facilitate us working together. So I was quite enthusiastic, too. And then it turns out your neighbor too, so? Of course, your friends. So

yeah, for me, it was exactly as you remember that we were loitering outside the space we were going to go into and I am an eye contact maker, by way of I think also overcoming some of my own shyness, you know, to just kind of push myself to the edge. And so I think it's to sort of add a little personal, you know, anecdotal and formation onto that when we started to talk and we started to see where there were possibilities for connections in our separate work. I think I was also conscious or not already wondering why I had made the change that I had made, which was to move from Oklahoma City where I was teaching in a small, private university to move to Lexington to teach at this larger public or one university. And so I'm always looking for signs. And and so this felt like actually, oh, this could be part of the reason why I'm here that seems to ease or enhance the change process for me is feeling like without being able to articulate it necessarily that there is a path. And I can kind of feel my way through it. But I am looking for sort of signposts along the way. That might just be how I'm strong as an actor. And we're, we're sort of nonlinear. We have nonlinear lifestyles by by demand, in a way, by circumstance, but I felt that I was on the cusp, and still am on the cusp of some kind of change. And kind of looking for, I think it brings me to this idea of the relationship between change and collaboration.

Well, you know, innovation is thought to be driven by cross perspective, collaboration. And change is just another word innovation, just a fancy word for change. Right. So. So it may well be that one strategy that we all use to help us ourselves change is to expose ourselves to different ways of thinking different ways of being different ways that people act. And that makes complete sense to me. I think the idea of looking for road marks that you're on the right. Road, it makes perfect sense to I mean, somebody will talk about that validating their decisions, right, that they, they decided to do something they're looking for experience that helped them believe yes, this was the right choice. And so that's a part of the maintaining causes of change, right? As you say, Okay, I'm making this changes, I'm better because of it. I don't want to go back to where I was, because I couldn't see these positive things that are coming.

Do you think culturally, in this country, we are change, resisting change, or embracing change, or

I think it's extremely difficult to characterize us as a country universally, because I think there's some pretty wide variability. I mean, there's wide variability across the human condition. But everybody changes. You know, I was talking, I was listening to a podcast, they were interviewing a paleontologist, I can't remember her name. But she made the comment, that's from a paleontologist perspective, you know, they take the very long view that even a rock is an event, because at some point in history, that rock did exist, and then it exists. And then at some point, it disappears. So a rock as an event, but people are events too. And, and so all of us are perpetually changing. Because we have a beginning, middle and end, we have our, if we're lucky, we might last a century. But that's kind of the top end. And every day, we're changing a little bit. And so that change is permanent changes always there, it always will be there. But different people, embrace change, different. And so if you begin to think about bigger changes, that changes, like we're talking about where you see yourself in one way, and you actively decide that you want to see yourself in a different way, and you take steps in order to be the causal agent. That's hard. And some people like that. And some people don't like that. So I think what you see in our culture, is you see the full range between people who embrace change, and people who are shy to change or hesitant to change. And that's normal. So that's just the nature of the human condition. It's sort of become the political expression here. So but it's always been there, always will be there, and that there'll be a range of the degree to which people accept change, you can probably move the dial in the middle of the population, but there's always going to be folks that try to keep everything exactly the same. But the great irony of keeping things the same, because you have to change in order to keep it the same, because otherwise you're going to be changing with a natural course of events. So staying constant keeping your life the way it's always been, takes active change process. So because you have to adjust your life like the picture changing age, etc. So a change is the one universal experience, but some of us like it, saw us hate it. And a lot of us are in the middle.

Who do you know who's good at it?

I think the acting profession has a lot of people who are quite good at change, right? Because that's kind of that's what attracts me to having you host this show is that I think the idea that you take out a character and you become that person in some way, for at least some period of time. I think that's, yes, that's a talent of acting. And if you're really good at it, then you know how you change yourself to be that character, you then walk away from that character and change yourself in a different way, a different time for a different purpose. So I think actors are actually trained to change, it may make folks in that profession a little bit vulnerable. Because all the change I'd like I worry about people like Heath Ledger, who, you know, changed in order to become this really, really unhealthy character, and then he never quite got out from under it. So yeah, I

think that's interesting. I think I think there's a spectrum there, too, that there are, there are actors who are chameleons, and they're expert at change. And they're good at it. And they know how to use themselves as a vessel. And then separate and but then there's also actors who, like play themselves all the time. So

the John Wayne's of the world try. Although if you notice on that, on that issue for somebody like Tom Selleck, who I think is an accurate plays himself, who he was changed over time, right? And so himself, he always played himself, but he was who he was just changed. His blue blood character is still kind of who he is. But it's different than his Magnum PI. Yes. Because he's old.

What about that word authenticity? Does that have anything to do with what we're talking about?

It might I don't know, I think where it might fit in, it goes back to your earlier question about do you have your better self inside you already, and you're finding it. So that would be the argument that you're finding your authentic self,

what's something you'd like to change about? yourself?

I would like to Well, I've been working on being healthier. So what I'd like to change about myself right now is to teach myself to eat better. So when I was younger, I stopped it. I travel a lot of bike in my career, and I stopped turning in my meal vouchers for reimbursement because I would be mocked because I I'd have McDonald's for breakfast, Burger King for lunch and Taco Bell for dinner. So I have over time gotten better at that I've gotten healthier in a number of different aspects of my life, he walked him 1000 steps a day, I do those kinds of things. But I still don't really eat healthy particularly when I'm I'm not when I'm by myself. So. So eating, you know, cooking and eating vegetables regularly with my hafta cut down on my sugar intake. But I absolutely love sugary foods. So figuring out how to do that as my next big change. But good luck to me. I'm not sure. I don't really want to except I know that I'd be healthier if I do. So I haven't really kind of wrap my head around the precipitating event.

Or, or as you say it I've I've cooked single person meals for many years of my life. And there's definitely something more enjoyable about being in collaboration in the kitchen. So it's really challenging

kitchens are way better. Yes, indeed.

What about the like the world at large? What would you like to see change?

I would like to see us politically move to collaboration as a way of getting things done, I think our current model of my way or the highway, regardless of where your what your way is, is not helpful. It's not healthy, it's not viable. Because we don't live in a culture where we're at 100% agreement on things. So therefore, one side can't win, ever. And for us to believe that one side can win is a fool's errand. So I would like us to re embrace the idea that we can all work together to find common ground and, and help solve problems through collaboration. That's the CNT goddess collaboration. And that's not just Khumba Yeah, right. I mean, that sounds nice. But it's also the only known strategy for managing complex systems. There's actually two strategies for managing complex systems. So those are systems that involve multiple human beings can. One is hierarchical. So when Just popped out. And that's like, the the military would be a classic example or a surgical suite, you know, a surgical suite, the surgeons in charge, and you want that to be the case, because that's how you live through surgery, right is it they're in charge, what they say goes, everybody follows with the surgeon says, same with the military top down. But the only way higher work those strategies work is if there's a single line of authority. And in most things in our country, there's never a single line of authority. So hierarchy solution. But that's why you see a call to a drawed. Author terian ism, is because there's this feeling like if we just had somebody in charge, who told everybody what to do, and they do it, and we'd be better off, right, there's a draw to that, because that is one strategy for making an effective culture. But that's not going to be viable in our culture. And so the only viable alternative is collaboration. And that's getting everybody on the same page, find, finding the shared aspirations, the shared the community goals, and then working together towards those goals. And I think I would love to see us do a lot more work on that. That's how we spend our time is trying to get, you know, behavioral health and the justice system and child welfare system, and vocational rehabilitation systems all work together towards the common purpose of helping people. Because that's really the only viable way to make a pluralistic society that doesn't have a single line of authority, the only way to make it work. So that's would be my personal aspiration. A worldview,

also daunting, but also very positive. And I just, I wonder now if, if you can fast forward, you know, a few episodes imaginatively? And do you think that we will find patterns in in personal stories of transformation and personal stories of change? Will we find patterns for collaboration?

Yes, I suspect. So I think what we'll end up finding is that while every story is different, they do have some common themes. And that our job is really going to be to listen to these stories, recognize, embraces, celebrate their uniqueness, but also see whether there's not lessons there for the rest of us. So because I think you can't really apply somebody else's change process to your life. But you can probably apply some basic, basic lessons learned. So I like to think in terms of heuristics, which are decision aids that we all use, you know, that stitch in time saves nine, yeah, that's a heuristic, the 10 commandments that are heuristics that shall not kill, right? So am I gonna kill, right? So we just have these little decision aids that we use all the time. And I think there's probably some heuristics that we can pull from people's stories that people can use as a guide, when they're faced with their own possible change decisions that they can use to say, Okay, this might be the direction I would choose to go. So I think that's what I'll be listening for, as I listen to people's stories, celebrating their own personal journey, right, because that's unique. But I suspect there are some learnings that we can take from people's

stories. Yeah. So in fact, it's, it's like you're gonna get feedback

about some of you're gonna get he's,

you know, or don't know, in your own work from these personal stories, which I think is why our collision is an interesting one. And I look forward to hearing the stories you've already Yes, producer done a great job gathering really interesting, humans with really, really powerful stories. And I won't give any of them away. But I think I think we're going to each learn a lot from our own perspectives, our unique perspectives, and we're going to have a lot to talk about in terms of our shared perspective.

I agree. I think this is, this is exciting. And I'm quite interested in seeing where this journey takes us. And there are some amazing people that are just so amazing. They have really amazing stories, and they've done amazing things in their life. And I'm not when I say amazing, I'm not saying like they got the most hits on YouTube. There are that they're famous. They're just people living their lives, doing amazing things within the context of their lives. So we won't be bringing in famous people, oh, it's not a celebrity thing. But it's really about people living their lives are living it to the fullest they can I think that there's so many potential people to hear.

Yeah. And I think also giving those people the opportunity to try to articulate where they started and where they are now and how they got there. Because I think most of the time, we skip that question and life.

We don't really reflect

well, thank you, John Lyons for for spending this time with me and I will look forward to hearing more from you during this inaugural season of shift shift

looking forward to good luck enjoy the stars Thank you.

shift shift Bloom is made possible in part by the prayed Foundation, a nonprofit organization committed to improving the well being of all through the use of personalized timely interventions and provider of online training in the T comm. Tools. T calm is transformational collaborative outcomes management, a comprehensive framework for improving the effectiveness of helping systems through person centered care, online at prayed foundation.org and AT T coma conversations.org And by the Center for Innovation and Population Health at the University of Kentucky online@iph.uk y.edu