"We study history not to remember the past but to understand the present". That is the reason for this series.

In this episode we discuss the intellectual seed-bed of the ancient world, especially that of Greece. We begin in Crete, whose Minoan civilization predated and heavily influenced the Grecian culture on the mainland. More specifically we talk about:

1. Who "counts" as philosophers
2. The philosophy and thought of the Minoan civilization
3. The meaning of monism
4. Mysticism in the ancient world
5. The mystery religions and their connection with philosophy
6. How the earliest Greek thought influences our thinking today

Well today, we are excited to begin a

new series on the history of philosophy.

2

Yeah, we sure are.

3

there's a long history here.

4

Yeah.

5

About 3000 years almost.

6

There's a lot to cover.

7

Yeah, this'll be, good.

8

And it'll be over a number of episodes.

9

We'll see how recording goes.

10

And maybe you split some of these

into two weeks and that kind of

11

thing, but there's, there's a lot here

just reading your notes from today.

12

It's going to be good conversation,

but it will be full as well.

13

So it will no.

14

We're going to talk about

the history of philosophy.

15

We're not going to talk about.

16

Every aspect of every philosopher.

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We're going to focus on the main currents

of thought, how they've influenced others.

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And in particular, how they've

influenced our modern culture today.

19

Those are the streams of

thought we're going to focus on.

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And try to tell a

consistent narrative story.

21

Of the history of Western

thought, it's the best weekend.

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Sweet sweet.

23

So this is kind of more Western thought.

24

I mean, what do you

mean by Western thought?

25

So Western thought would be

the philosophy basically.

26

of Greek and Roman originally,

and then of Arab philosophers.

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Jewish philosophers.

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And a European and then American

and Australian philosophers.

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Okay.

30

Okay.

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So not so much in, Asia or

African or south American.

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Right.

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Okay.

34

Well, cool.

35

I think that the first question I

have is why a history of philosophy.

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I saw a movie the other night.

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And I don't remember if they're

quoting someone else or not, but

38

there was a quote from that movie.

39

That really resonated

with me on this point.

40

And it was something like.

41

We study history, not

to remember the past.

42

But to understand the present.

43

Hmm.

44

And that's it.

45

This isn't just an academic exercise.

46

The ideas that we have today,

don't come out of thin air.

47

They are the result of all this

stream of Western thought and idea.

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In the areas of philosophy

and religion primarily.

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Everything else comes much

later in is to certain degree

50

dependent upon those things.

51

Okay.

52

Yeah, That makes sense.

53

So it's very grounded in the

present and for the president.

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Exactly.

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Let me give you an example.

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We were talking to a

woman not too long ago.

57

she was a Christian and she

said, you know, I don't have the

58

normal Christian ideas though.

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About the afterlife.

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And when we explore that a bit.

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She said, well, I don't believe we just

go up to heaven and don't have a body.

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I think we have a body.

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Here on this earth.

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So I'm a little different in that.

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Yeah.

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And.

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I was thinking I'm like, well, that's

the plain teaching of the Bible is

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that we will have a resurrection body

that we will be here upon the earth.

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Yeah.

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Not some disembodied state.

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Out in a different dimension or something.

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And yet.

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The reason that resonated

with me is because I know.

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That for most people.

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Who have grown up in a certain context.

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That is the idea that they have, that

the body's just going to be cast away.

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Or we're going to live.

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Our spirits are going to live

this disembodied state in union

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with God forever in heaven.

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That is not a biblical idea.

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That is an idea that is

primarily influenced by

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Greek thought and philosophy.

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Yeah.

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So the, the point that all that

stuff affects us and how we

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think about scripture and how we

think about all these things is.

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even though it goes back

thousands of years, it's still

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very much present and alive.

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Today.

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Yes.

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I just thought of this.

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So maybe it doesn't make sense or not.

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But sometimes I do some counseling,

One of the things I've learned.

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Is that early childhood

wounds that people have.

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So not physical wounds.

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But wounds that they have in their spirit.

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They don't become less important.

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They don't become

minimize as we get older.

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Simply because time has passed.

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Rather the earlier those wounds

are and the ideas about themselves

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that people form because of that.

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The more foundational they

are to that person's thought.

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So it's actually.

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The oldest ideas out of the most important

is, is where I'm trying to get at.

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Oh, yeah.

105

that's a good illustration.

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So just getting into this and we've

defined this in the past, but for

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today's episode, can you define.

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Philosophy for us once more.

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Yeah.

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And we did talk about this.

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I think the very first episode.

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Now the term just means

the love of wisdom.

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And there is no fixed definition

that all philosophers would agree on.

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So it's not like history or archeology

or physics where they're pretty

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clear lines of demarkation between.

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The disciplines.

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The line between philosophy and theology

or, religion, or even science originally.

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Is pretty fuzzy.

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There's a lot of overlap.

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But that idea basically cares the thought.

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The world we're talking

about is understanding.

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The ultimate questions of human

life and of reality itself.

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Now, usually when you talk about

a history of philosophy, you have

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to ask the question, all right.

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Who, who counts as a philosopher?

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Right?

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Who are we going to include?

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Or what kinds of thought are

we going to go into include.

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And in particular, one of the

more live questions is RK.

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Do we count, for example, sane and

slum or do we count Thomas Aquinas or

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are they theologians and philosophers?

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Even though I say Thomas Aquinas was one

of the most influential philosophers or

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figures in the history of philosophy.

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shows what you believe about

his, uh, his title there.

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Yes, it does.

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I'm showing my hand here.

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Usually there are two options.

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When people try to define who's

a philosopher and who's not, or

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what's a philosophy and what's not.

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You can define it by

subject matter and concerns.

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So the things that's dealing

with, those ultimate questions.

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Or by methodology.

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By methodology.

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What we mean is that some say

that you must rule out any

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arguments or ideas or authority.

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Apart from autonomous human reasoning.

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So what's only going to count our

people who do not have any religious

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presuppositional commitments.

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No.

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That seems flawed to me.

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Uh, because it's, it's actually making

an odd priority commitment, a commitment

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before you even begin this discussion.

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Is deciding to philosophical question.

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Whether human reasoning

is the only legitimate.

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Epistemological tool.

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Before you actually begin to

even think about philosophy.

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So it's making a philosophic choice

upfront before you even talk about

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philosophy or begin studying it.

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So that's why I tend to

go with the latter route.

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Just because of that

particular reason and because.

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I think it would be silly to exclude

people like Thomas Aquinas, even though

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he had his specific religious commitment.

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So you're, saying that he's

a philosopher because he was

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thinking deeply about these.

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biggest questions of life.

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Yes.

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And reasoning about those.

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And reasoning about those.

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Okay.

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So, so question about who's a philosopher.

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is it as broad as anybody who reasons

about the biggest, I mean, is it, is

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it fair to say everybody's, I've heard,

it said everybody's a philosopher.

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Just not, everybody's a good one.

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Well, that's true in some degree,

but when we're talking more specific

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about the history of philosophy, we're

talking about people who wrote down

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their ideas and had influence on others.

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Okay.

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So where do you even begin with

a history of philosophy then?

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You know, that's a question

I wrestled with and probably

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over-thought quite a bit.

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I want to go as far back as the written

record will allow us to go, whoa.

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How far does that go?

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I would say it goes back

to the Minoan civilization.

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Which is going to be dated.

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Between 3000 and 1100 BC.

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So right in the middle of that, around.

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2000 BC to 1500 BC.

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We have philosophical

ideas being brought forth.

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That we can talk about.

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Now the first actual philosopher.

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Usually is regarded as Dailies.

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. Okay.

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About 6 25 BC.

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So that's T H a L E S.

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Okay.

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They Alisa my latest.

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And so he's kind of the first person

who is reflecting on the biggest

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questions of life that even began.

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millennia beforehand.

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He is the first person that we

know of that was teaching things

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in a systematic and rational way.

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Oh, okay.

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Probably there were quite a few different.

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Kinds of people doing that beforehand,

but we don't have record of that.

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Okay.

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And even what we have a dailies.

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Comes much later and it's incomplete.

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So we're kind of reading

between the lines as it were.

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But.

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I want to talk about, especially

in this first episode or two.

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What happens before him?

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Because people were obviously thinking

about ultimate reality before the alleys.

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And we have to remember.

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Fairly his and the other

earliest Greek philosophers.

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I don't arrive on the scene from nowhere.

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They arrive.

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From the intellectual currents that

are around them and they're going to

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breathe those things in like the air.

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And they're going to do that for the

most part, subconsciously like we all do.

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So there are certain ideas,

thoughts, the themes.

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That are already.

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In the air in the culture that

they're going to build upon.

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they always thought is

not creation next to Hilo.

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Out of nothing is taking

preexisting thoughts and given

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his own interpretation upon them.

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So I want to, at least today

maybe next episode as well.

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Talk about those preexisting thoughts.

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That we're really the seed

bed, the foundation of all

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the early Greek philosophy.

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And really.

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That influence is still today.

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So what was some of the air that he was

breathing, the philosophical current,

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so to speak that he was writing down.

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All right.

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And where did he even get it?

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To avoid an infinite digression.

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I think we'd have to probably start.

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At Crete.

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Probably a thousand

years before it's daily.

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So 1500 to 2000 years BC.

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I think we can understand a little bit

about what the people were thinking about.

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One place to start talking about.

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This is the idea of myth.

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Myth is the universal seed

bed of thought for humanity.

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Every culture we have ever

encountered has thought in terms

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of myth, at least originally.

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But we have to understand when

we're talking about Greek myth.

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We usually get Greek myth wrong.

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We usually think wrongly about it.

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How, so what do you mean.

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We tend to think of Greek mythology

as centered on these Olympian gods.

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So you have Zeus, you have Herro, you

have Apollo and, and, and the others,

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and they reside on Mount Olympus.

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And that is certainly obviously within

Greek thought It's memorialized so well.

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And beautifully in Homer.

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Which is why we have it.

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So predominantly in our mind, But there

is an earlier stream of mythology.

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That's in with that.

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And was actually more influential.

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In the ancient world and

still has influenced today.

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So what, is the stream

or what are the streams?

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I call this The 3m theme

within the ancient Greek world.

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you could also call it

the shapeless stream.

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The shapeless dream.

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That's going to be the main idea may

metaphor here, but I call it 3m because.

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It's Minoan.

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It's mystery and it's mysticism.

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Okay, we're going to have to unpack.

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Each of those terms there.

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Yeah.

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I thought we probably would.

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What is Minoan, I've

never even heard of this.

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Okay.

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So picture the Mediterranean sea.

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Right.

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Okay.

277

All right.

278

So it's kinda like this oval

or like an egg on its side.

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And then right at the very top of

that, from our perspective, usually

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when we look at a map, you have

grease like a hand reaching down.

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With its fingers into the heart of

the Mediterranean and then right

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near where those fingers reach down.

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There's a very large island called Crete.

284

Okay.

285

Yeah.

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You've probably seen the map.

287

Yeah.

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Sure.

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I flew over at once.

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It was pretty cool.

291

Did you meet some unknowns?

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No, I flew over it.

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but their increase was

the first European city.

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Kenosis.

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And that is the heart of what's

called the Minoan civilization.

296

No.

297

Creates position right there

meant that it was strategically

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located at the crossroads.

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Have a lot of different trading routes.

300

But also the civilization, those

trading routes were attached to with

301

their own ideas and their own cultures.

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And their own MIS.

303

Oh, okay.

304

Yeah.

305

Really?

306

I think probably if you understand what

happens here, you're understanding.

307

What's happening in a large

part of the civilized world.

308

At least the part of it that's west

of, um, into your China at least.

309

Okay.

310

So it's the crossroads of the

Mediterranean, so to speak.

311

It was then.

312

Okay.

313

It was then because remember

kenosis is going to predate.

314

Almost any city, on the Greek mainland,

it's called the first city of Europe.

315

Okay.

316

and what time period are

we talking about here?

317

There seems to be some sort of

318

But most people date.

319

Minoan civilization from about 2000 BC.

320

So this is, way before.

321

Socrates and Plato and Homer and

centuries and centuries before.

322

Yeah.

323

Okay.

324

And this is part of their culture

and heritage, because these

325

ideas, they don't get discarded.

326

They just get buried in the

subconscious of a culture, basically.

327

But what's interesting is

that these particular ideas

328

that we'll be talking about.

329

Don't actually get buried as

much as they continue to flow.

330

All the way.

331

Until the end of, how lending culture.

332

And in fact.

333

If you look at Greek culture

as a whole, For the most part.

334

The mythology of Manoa.

335

the mythology of Minoan culture.

336

Is going to be more influential

than the Olympian mythology

337

and the Greek philosophy.

338

Oh, wow.

339

Okay.

340

Yeah.

341

So I'm, really curious to unpack that.

342

Are we, ready to impact

some of the influence there?

343

Sure.

344

So Just by way of explanation, by the way.

345

They didn't call themselves the Minoans.

346

We don't know what they call themselves

because we're reading between the lines.

347

We don't have a lot of materials where.

348

We're understanding a lot of this through

archeology rather than through literature.

349

Um, but there seems to be a pretty good

consensus on what the archeology tells us.

350

Arthur Evans was a British archeologist.

351

And uh, about a century

ago, a little bit more.

352

He excavated this city of

kenosis on the island of Crete.

353

He saw all these intricate

underground rooms, like a labyrinth.

354

And to him are recalled the, the myth.

355

of king minus and the Minotaur and the

Minotaur is living in the labyrinth.

356

he had rule over.

357

The Greek mainland and they had to

in the G and then they had to send

358

these, young men and young women

to be sacrifices to the Minotaur.

359

Who's this half bull have human

monster that lived in this labyrinth

360

that no one could figure out the way.

361

He named it.

362

Minoa because of that, but we don't

actually know what it's called.

363

Okay.

364

But we do know some things

about the religion in there.

365

Thought.

366

we know that they spread their.

367

wares and their knowledge

around the Mediterranean.

368

maybe I'll break this down into two parts,

but they're going to be very much related.

369

Okay.

370

So Minoan religion, and

then Minoan philosophy.

371

So one of the things you

see is that the people.

372

Other time as part of the

religious rights were led into a

373

cave or a part of the underworld.

374

So they're going down to the earth.

375

Alright.

376

Okay.

377

And then as I go down into the earth,

As part of some ritual they're given.

378

In toxicants or drugs that

would cause hallucinations.

379

So it's not exactly clear what this is.

380

If it's some sort of something

like a magic mushrooms.

381

Or if it was something

a little bit different.

382

But they had some sort of

altered state experience.

383

Sometimes this would be seen as

something like, you know, Tree dying.

384

And you're in this cave.

385

You're buried.

386

You're in mother earth as it were.

387

And then you have this.

388

Alter state experienced something akin

to dine, and then you come out of that

389

and You have your, your life after that?

390

And there seems to be implicit

in this what's really important

391

is that this altered state.

392

Is about.

393

Union with the divine,

not a personal divine.

394

But with the stream of being the shapeless

stream that runs through all things.

395

That's a segue then

into Minoan philosophy.

396

We'll talk about that stream.

397

Yeah, so already you can see

That the theme of death and

398

resurrection union with God.

399

that's crazy to see those

themes all the way back then.

400

It's not like these are new ideas.

401

Death and resurrection.

402

And you get with God, right?

403

Exactly.

404

so that was kind of their

prac oh yeah, go ahead.

405

The way that you would unite with God is

going to be quite a bit different than

406

say Christian thought, but yeah, but yeah.

407

Yeah.

408

Got to get super high and.

409

Yes.

410

Interesting.

411

So that's of the

religious practice, right?

412

But again, there's no clear separation

between religion and philosophy

413

in any part of the ancient world.

414

I think we can kind of

separate some of those out.

415

And I've tried to do that here.

416

so the religious would be like

the definition of that would

417

maybe be like more practice.

418

But the philosophy would be kind

of like the ideas that go behind

419

or underneath the practice.

420

Is that how you're defining it?

421

That's kind of the distinction I'm making.

422

Okay.

423

But again, that's not a distinction

you would make in nature at world.

424

Okay.

425

So the shapeless stream.

426

The shapeless stream.

427

This is the idea that there is this.

428

The stream or current.

429

Of Reality or life or energy.

430

That flows endlessly in a cycle.

431

So think of a, of a literal

stream, but it doesn't have any.

432

Does it have any banks or borders?

433

It doesn't have any depth that just flows.

434

And then think of that, kind of like

the precipitation cycle, you know,

435

the water flows into the ocean.

436

And then the, the ocean evaporates

the water into the clouds, the clouds,

437

rain down and create the stream again.

438

So time is cyclical.

439

Okay.

440

Uh, that's an idea that you'll later

find in some of the Greek philosophers,

441

but especially in Eastern thought.

442

Yeah.

443

It's given me some flashbacks to

some of our earlier conversations.

444

Yes.

445

And to me, at least it's unclear, which

influenced the other, but it's there.

446

Oh, that's super interesting too.

447

Yeah.

448

Yeah.

449

So you had this.

450

This endless shapeless

stream of life or being.

451

And then individual things.

452

People.

453

Plants animals.

454

They're almost like all certain part

of that shapeless stream of a being.

455

Takes physical form for awhile.

456

Maybe.

457

Five years.

458

Maybe 10 years.

459

Depending on what plant or animal it is.

460

Maybe 80 years, if it's a human.

461

And then when it dies,

it goes back into that.

462

Endless shapeless stream.

463

That is the heart of this.

464

Now that idea.

465

Think through that.

466

Everything ultimately is

one, it's a shapeless stream.

467

It's not a person.

468

It's a force.

469

It's a thing.

470

So that's the ultimate reality.

471

And it's guided by

another impersonal force.

472

You would call fate.

473

Something like that.

474

So there's no.

475

Person.

476

Guiding this to create certain

forms by purpose or by will.

477

It just happens irrationally.

478

So you've got the shapeless dream.

479

Now.

480

What happens then?

481

Well, Your goal.

482

Is when you have those

experiences is to somehow.

483

Reenact that union that you

had with that shapeless dream.

484

And then also perceived what is to

come, that you will go back into that.

485

So there is an idea inherent here.

486

There is a rational idea.

487

But you understand that now by argument,

or even by a tradition, but more by

488

union, this mystical union that's

brought about by these hallucinogenic.

489

experiences and, substances.

490

So that's the heart of this.

491

And then.

492

This seems to be mixed in together

with this idea that there is a, mother

493

goddess mother earth earth itself as.

494

the symbol and the ultimate.

495

physical expression of this

shapeless dream of being.

496

you go down to the earth because

that's where he came from.

497

That's where you gonna go.

498

You have this dual image

or birth and nourishment.

499

But then also death.

500

The earth gives life to things

within it, takes it back.

501

sometimes you would have then.

502

A figure of a mother goddess.

503

And often you would have lesser daemons.

504

So that is a word for

some sort of lesser God.

505

So not, not demon they're related,

but they're different words.

506

This is D a E M O N.

507

Uh, yeah, they're related, but

there are different words actually.

508

So it's Trying to understand that

the concepts of like good and bad.

509

Right and wrong.

510

Is that kind of how they're making

sense of this or not really?

511

Actually no ethical component is

almost entirely absent in this.

512

Oh, okay.

513

So the demons are not good or bad.

514

They're just other nature gods who are

consorts of mother earth too, but they're

515

much lesser status and she is okay.

516

His mother earth, a good.

517

Person or figure or what, however it

being, uh, Moral status attributed to her.

518

Not that I've ever seen.

519

She just is.

520

And it's unclear whether you believe

that that is a person or you creating

521

this figure to represent the.

522

The irrational forces that

don't have a personality.

523

Okay.

524

I think probably more the ladder.

525

Kind of anthropomorphism.

526

Yeah.

527

Okay.

528

So the moral and ethic.

529

Peace is absent.

530

That's that's super interesting to

think about A culture where part of

531

their, math is not related to morals.

532

Um, I'm wondering if there's other

things that aren't present that.

533

Get built upon later.

534

Yeah, there is.

535

Let's explore that one part though.

536

What are the things that amazed me

when I started studying more ancient

537

religions and philosophy as was.

538

That morality wasn't really much of

an issue for most ancient religions.

539

That seems really surprising.

540

Yeah.

541

Because for us, it's at the heart of it.

542

Right.

543

But if you went through the rituals

back then you did so for religious

544

reasons, but for the most part,

these guys are not interested.

545

And telling you how to be moral

people or what you should actually do.

546

They're more interested in you doing

the certain rights or experiences.

547

Hmm.

548

Maybe this is more a sociological question

than a philosophical question, but did

549

they not have rules and laws and that

kind of thing as well, or just maybe

550

that stuff wasn't grounded in the divine.

551

It wasn't necessarily

grounded in the divine.

552

Okay.

553

There would be rules, of course, but

these were rules primarily, primarily

554

that were designed to help the city stay.

555

So there are more laws

than inward ethical duties.

556

Okay.

557

So as long as you followed the laws

and you did the rights, you were.

558

You know, you were good.

559

There wasn't this inward

heartburn, morality or ethics that

560

become the central part of the

monotheistic religions, at least.

561

So it wasn't an emphasis

on character development.

562

No, for example.

563

Okay.

564

No.

565

Huh.

566

Notice officer, you said, what

else is not present in this?

567

Well, It's not really something that

you rationally discovering, argue about.

568

It's more based upon experience.

569

So if you going to talk about

epistemology, how you know things.

570

This is not a rationalistic

type of philosophy.

571

This is an experiential type.

572

Um, it's irrational.

573

It's more mystical.

574

We'll talk about that.

575

It's also Mona's stick.

576

It's also Okay.

577

What do you mean by that?

578

So, Mona ism is the idea

that everything is one.

579

That like the Eastern doc.

580

Kind of thing.

581

Yes.

582

Okay.

583

Yes.

584

Eastern thought is usually monistic.

585

Okay.

586

So Mona's and says that everything

ultimately boils down to one thing.

587

And then other individual things

you have to explain in some way.

588

And that becomes the real challenge.

589

When you have a Mona's

tick system of thought.

590

But this is Monez because

there's one primary thing and

591

that's the shapeless stream.

592

And things come and go out of that.

593

But they don't ever have

their own separate status.

594

That's eternal.

595

They just exist for a little

while in some physical form.

596

And then they go back into that.

597

Hmm.

598

And That idea of a Mon ism

that underlies reality.

599

You're going to see that

again and again, and again.

600

In Greek thought and

not just Greek thought.

601

It is a perpetual.

602

I'm not going to say temptation

because that's a loaded word.

603

It's a perpetual idea that many

people go back to that all is one.

604

And then.

605

The big question is going to be in

the big problem for Greek philosophy

606

all the way through Plato, at least.

607

Is between the one and the many.

608

How do you explain for the oneness of

everything, but also individual things?

609

So, yeah.

610

So that idea of the one and

the many goes back centuries,

611

centuries, maybe even a millennium.

612

Before Plato, Gabe.

613

What many people regard as kind

of the definitive answer to

614

that from a Greek point of view.

615

Wow.

616

. Okay.

617

I want to bring us back.

618

For a second.

619

Cause you're talking about

the, maybe three different,

620

influences the 3m or the three.

621

The shapeless stream that we're

talking about a minute ago.

622

You said my know, and we just

kind of have unpacked that a

623

little bit coming from Crete.

624

And some of the philosophy and maybe

religious practices coming from there.

625

But you mentioned these other two

AMS, which were mystery and mysticism.

626

And so I'm wondering if we

can go ahead and, talk about.

627

Mystery religions.

628

Yeah.

629

And that's what he mean by mystery is

what you would call mystery religions or

630

what they were at least called that later.

631

I'm not sure when they started

getting that designation.

632

But it's apt because there are

dealing with the mysteries of this

633

world and how to understand them.

634

They're also called nature religion

sometimes because they have a lot of

635

similarities with, nature religions.

636

You're going to see that

these actually start.

637

With the Minoans.

638

I mean, their thought is

obviously based upon this.

639

But these mystery religions.

640

Are going to extend for

centuries in their influence.

641

And when you read the new Testament,

the epistles are written to people.

642

Who are dealing with initiates of the

mystery, religion, all around that.

643

So, for example, if Paul's writing

to the church in emphasis, in what,

644

70, 80, or something like that.

645

That idea of a mystery,

religion, or mystery religions.

646

It's going to be a very prevalent,

I would guess I can't prove this.

647

And I don't know of anyone who's tried

to, I would guess more people than not.

648

In a city like emphasis or Corinth.

649

Who were not Christians or Jews.

650

We're probably initiates of

one of the mystery religions.

651

Okay.

652

One of those may be

being related to Artemis.

653

Yeah, that's one of them.

654

I mean, they're all kinds,

but They had some similarities

655

and they had differences.

656

Okay, these mystery

religions maybe started.

657

loosely based on what was happening

in Crete, but maybe they got taken or

658

transported because it was a crossroads

of the Mediterranean kind of area.

659

And then they kind of go to these

different locations and they just

660

kind of begin to develop like that.

661

And.

662

get intermixed with other, myths

going on with those pockets

663

around the Mediterranean.

664

Is that, is that.

665

Yeah, especially the north Mediterranean.

666

Okay.

667

I don't know if there were much in the way

of mystery religions and say north Africa.

668

Or, Palestine.

669

I can't answer that.

670

But.

671

from my own limited knowledge, I'm

thinking, especially in the north half

672

as it were, oh, the Mediterranean basin.

673

It's the, spin-offs.

674

Influenced by.

675

what.

676

The Minoans perhaps influenced by

maybe other things, but they begin to

677

take root and there's some patterns.

678

Yes.

679

historians and philosophers can kind of

point to that have shown their influence.

680

Yes.

681

And then they will.

682

Join together.

683

Ties with some of the Olympian,

religion deities later on.

684

And then they're going to morph

into more full system of Gnosticism.

685

A little bit in the century

or two after Christ.

686

So this is still pre.

687

Socrates and Plato and Aristotle.

688

but it's, pre Mount Olympus.

689

As well.

690

Yes, but it's also contemporary with

them and going past them in history.

691

Contemporary with them

just forming indifferent.

692

location in different

geographic locations.

693

Oh, they're going to be mixed

together even in the same city.

694

Okay.

695

I know this is why earlier, it

was difficult to point to like

696

the specifics of polytheistic.

697

Religions or philosophies because

they're so diverse, right?

698

but.

699

there's going to be some, you said

syncretism going on and all that.

700

Yeah.

701

Think of it as a river Delta.

702

So you have one main

stream or one main flow.

703

But then it begins to Virgin into

all these separate channels and

704

then Southern channels joined

together with other channels.

705

And then maybe they diverge again.

706

That's kind of what's going on

here with, these mystery religions,

707

a Greek thought in general.

708

Okay.

709

Yeah, that muddies the water quite

a bit, but what are some of the,

710

Kinds or what would maybe be some

of the, families of those mystery

711

religions or would that kind of thing.

712

Let's explore one of these mystery

religions, because I think it's

713

probably the most influential.

714

And that is the Ellucian

religions and Colts.

715

Based upon the city of

Elisha, which is near Athens.

716

Is that like the brewing

company from Seattle?

717

I have no idea.

718

Okay.

719

I don't know that brewing company.

720

Okay.

721

So there was a.

722

Suburb of Athens, maybe that's

probably not the right word.

723

There was a city nearby.

724

Athens.

725

Called Alyssia.

726

Or Lucia.

727

And it's estimated.

728

That for a good part of this timeframe,

we're talking about the majority.

729

Of Athenian citizens.

730

We're actually initiates of this

LOC Tinian mystery religion.

731

So put that in your mind.

732

This is the same Athens

where you've got these Greek

733

philosophers doing their thing.

734

But at the same time, a majority of

the people are going to be initiates.

735

I have this mystery, religion,

this one particular branch.

736

That's pretty mind blowing and.

737

when I understood that when I read that.

738

Like, wow.

739

I had no idea.

740

Wow.

741

All right.

742

So what happens.

743

This is a really good example of the

mystery religions, but also the way that.

744

Religion and philosophy worked together

and also how divorce it was from ethics.

745

Like we were just talking about.

746

So once a year, there would be

a yearly festival at Elisha.

747

People would go.

748

And you would go to become an initiate.

749

So you would go once in your

lifetime, kind of like a

750

pilgrimage to Mecca or something.

751

And after that you're considered in

initia, you were part of the group.

752

And during this time, When you went

to this festival, you would be led

753

down into an underworld or a cave.

754

Sound familiar.

755

It does.

756

Yeah.

757

Yeah.

758

And you would be given

some sort of intoxicant.

759

Oh, okay.

760

Again with the mushrooms.

761

Yeah.

762

Again with the mushrooms or something

that would cause Hallucinations or

763

an altered state of consciousness.

764

Okay.

765

And that part's pretty clear.

766

So there's some sort of altered state.

767

It's often described as death, like

the old person that you were dies.

768

And now, as an, initiative, that's gone

through this, you were a new person.

769

like a new birth or rebirth.

770

Yeah.

771

I'm not sure these a term or not.

772

Right.

773

But they would consider

themselves change people.

774

and then you would go back.

775

To your normal way of life.

776

So there's no moral, there's

no ethical part of this.

777

There's this some sort of mystical

union brought about through substances.

778

That produces some sort of altered state

that has spiritual significance for you.

779

some sort of union, I think would be

the right way to think about that.

780

Okay.

781

So we've talked about Minoan culture.

782

As one of the AMS, we've talked about

the mystery religions as one of the AMS.

783

And then the third one is mysticism.

784

So what's mysticism.

785

What's the, link between

the other two here.

786

Yeah, it's kind of the common

thread that runs between these two.

787

And there's something that we

still have with us in many ways.

788

We're good at it for

about, it's a, human trait.

789

It's not necessarily a philosophical idea,

so it can be used for good or for bad.

790

I defined mysticism as basically

trying to experience God through

791

immediate and non rational means.

792

immediate, what I mean

is it's not mediated.

793

It doesn't come through.

794

Righteousness, holy living, learning

the scriptures or other things.

795

Or through things like sacraments.

796

So it doesn't come through.

797

Those is something that

you receive more directly.

798

That's what I mean.

799

I see, I see.

800

So using kind of the technical.

801

Yes.

802

Yeah.

803

So not, not right away, but

not through, not mediated.

804

Right.

805

Exactly.

806

And then it's non rational.

807

So you're looking at an experience.

808

Not a teaching, not a doctrine.

809

You're looking at a union with the

divine, as you understand that.

810

That's at the heart of mysticism.

811

one of the questions here is

Did people pick these religions?

812

Did they decide between these.

813

Or is it just something that they're

born into and they just embraced

814

it because it was part of their

cultural and tribal heritage.

815

I would guess it'd be part of both.

816

Yeah.

817

So certainly when you come to the later

stages of Greek culture or early Roman

818

culture, You would, if you were in a large

enough city, have a choice of which Mr.

819

Religions.

820

you wanted to become an initiative.

821

but for most people, especially earlier

centuries, There's going to be one

822

predominant way of thought, right?

823

And almost everyone's going to.

824

Cling to that.

825

Okay.

826

You're not saying that it's.

827

Irrational.

828

But you're just saying it's non rational.

829

There's not this emphasis that we have now

post enlightenment on rationality Yeah.

830

And irrational I'm used to.

831

More technical terms.

832

So not in a pejorative term.

833

For example, I believe that we

choose to believe what we believe

834

about God or ultimate things.

835

For both rational and

non rational reasons.

836

So rational would be logic.

837

thinking through.

838

Reasoning.

839

looking at the evidence and then reasoning

based upon that irrational would be

840

choice things that choose to value.

841

My own experiences.

842

those are things you don't

put into an argument and you

843

can't put it into an argument.

844

Now irrational sometimes can mean.

845

Crazy and anti rational.

846

And that's not what I'm

trying to convey here.

847

You're just saying that there's an

emphasis in this, on your experience

848

of union with the divine, not.

849

weighing the evidence Right.

850

Okay.

851

Yeah.

852

That's helpful.

853

Yep.

854

Again, a large part of this

you're seeking experience.

855

You are not seeking

knowledge, at least not.

856

intellectual knowledge.

857

And this experience bypasses the

mind, but it also bypasses the body.

858

So this isn't something.

859

That you do, for example, like you would.

860

Take in a sacrament or that you

would work to serve other people.

861

this is an experience of your inner being.

862

That your body doesn't

really participate in.

863

Which is ironic because it comes

through physical substances.

864

The hallucinogenics, right.

865

But the point is that what the inner

part of you, the non bodily part That is

866

some sort of a temporary manifestation

of this shapeless stream is now

867

communing with the shapeless stream.

868

In some way.

869

Hmm.

870

So that's what I'm trying

to get across there.

871

Hmm.

872

and in this, we see kind of the first idea

of humans being made of different parts.

873

Body.

874

And mind.

875

And then spirit or soul.

876

This idea.

877

that we have separate parts.

878

This is not Hebrew thought.

879

This is dumb.

880

Bible thought.

881

This is Greek thought and the

earliest kinds of Greek thought.

882

Oh, man.

883

That's that's interesting.

884

Yeah.

885

Does it conflict with biblical

thought or maybe it's.

886

I don't know.

887

Yeah, that's a great question.

888

I think it can.

889

I think, The Bible will

use these terms, obviously.

890

Yeah, but you can use a

term in two different ways.

891

You can use a term like

Seoul in two different ways.

892

You can use it as it's this thing

that's separate from your body.

893

That existed.

894

before your body and will exist after.

895

Or you can view it as one aspect

of your body, like your strength.

896

Or, your loving, Or your

thoughts, things that.

897

Yeah, you can talk about them.

898

Conceptually and make them distinct in

your mind in that way, but they're all

899

in mesh so closely with who you are.

900

That you can't separate those things

and, have them as a separate entity.

901

Apart from you.

902

Yeah, it seems that, Paul seemed

to talk about Christianity,

903

being a very embodied thing.

904

And what happens in the body

affects what's in the spirit.

905

And vice versa.

906

Yes.

907

No, not like they're, they're distinct.

908

And separate and that one doesn't

affect the other, so right.

909

Yeah.

910

And I think the, the Bible

project put this very well We

911

are not people who have a soul.

912

We are a soul.

913

And we are in Seoul.

914

That's.

915

By necessity and flushed within a body.

916

Hmm.

917

So.

918

At the heart that's who we are.

919

So going back all the

way to the beginning.

920

To have a conceptualization

of having that's disembodied.

921

you are in a sense.

922

Your body.

923

Yes.

924

You're all your personality,

all your emotions, all your

925

intellect, all your rationality.

926

Is embodied in you.

927

And it doesn't really make sense

to have a disembodied spirit that

928

is you floating somewhere in the

ether because it wouldn't be, you.

929

Okay.

930

Ah, it's, it's just super interesting.

931

Yeah.

932

And in a different way of thinking.

933

Cause I feel like.

934

And seeing this, I, think some

of my own thinking is influenced.

935

Oh yeah.

936

I think of mind, body and soul,

like being distinct entity

937

sometimes like that, just sure.

938

but maybe I've just assumed that.

939

And it's just coming from.

940

Historical heritage or philosophical.

941

Exactly.

942

Yeah.

943

It's part of the year that we breathe.

944

Yeah.

945

Even people who are not religious at all.

946

Make a distinction between body, soul,

spirit as if Their body and their

947

soul are separate things, you know?

948

so it's not just people who come

from a religious tradition that view.

949

This is part of our ongoing

thought in the Western world.

950

There are body and soul and

spirit, or sometimes people

951

will just say body and soul.

952

Are these things that could be divided.

953

Yeah, in depth, divides them like your

body dies, but your spirit lives forever.

954

Right?

955

Now.

956

When you come to Christianity

in the new Testament.

957

You see that there is a sense in which.

958

the death of our physical body here is

Does not mean that we are distinguished.

959

It means that God's power is

then able to recreate that body

960

and soul in a different way.

961

So we will still have

an embodied existence.

962

Our body will be different in way

that we can understand right now.

963

But the point of what Paul was

teaching, for example, in first

964

Corinthians 15, it's very clear.

965

The goal is not a disembodied existence.

966

That may not even be possible.

967

Maybe, maybe it is.

968

Maybe God can do that.

969

But the goal is that we are reformed

body and soul into a new beam.

970

That we have a physical

existence upon the earth.

971

Hmm.

972

My mind's gone crazy right now.

973

Cause we talk, what

happens after you die and.

974

if the biblical conception is

that okay, we're embodied souls.

975

Then maybe that's not really a good

question because maybe there isn't

976

any, maybe there's no conscious

waiting before the resurrection may be

977

just like the consciousness resumed.

978

With the resurrection.

979

I don't know.

980

I'm just thinking about this

kind of all for the first time.

981

Sure.

982

Yeah.

983

And maybe that's the case from

our experience, at least that.

984

When we, and this is kicking

off topic a little bit.

985

Yeah.

986

Uh, the, when we die from our experience,

because we seize consciousness.

987

But we are restored to

consciousness through Christ.

988

resurrecting us or God

resurrecting us with Christ rather.

989

The, when that happens in our experience,

one follows immediately after the other.

990

Even though from an outside

observer, there may be a gap of

991

time between those two things.

992

Hmm.

993

Wow.

994

I can talk about this all day.

995

Yeah.

996

Let let me bring us back here.

997

So we talked about the three AMS.

998

we talked about how There've been

some themes about death and going

999

into the ground and hallucinogenics,

and then union with the wine and

00:40:56,440 --> 00:40:58,840

kind of this Mon ism kind of thought.

00:40:58,863 --> 00:41:02,523

And it all begins and create and

then kind of moves out and then mixes

00:41:02,523 --> 00:41:03,813

with cultures and all this stuff.

00:41:04,233 --> 00:41:05,373

one of the questions I have.

00:41:05,373 --> 00:41:08,073

Is related to the Olympian gods.

00:41:08,223 --> 00:41:08,493

Okay.

00:41:09,003 --> 00:41:09,123

Yeah.

00:41:09,153 --> 00:41:10,653

So, when did these guys come in?

00:41:11,340 --> 00:41:13,230

What's the influence because

we talked about them.

00:41:13,360 --> 00:41:15,400

Showing up simultaneously.

00:41:15,760 --> 00:41:18,820

Or at least in the same time, As some

of these mystery religions around

00:41:18,820 --> 00:41:20,440

the north, part of the Mediterranean.

00:41:20,770 --> 00:41:24,550

So walk us through the Olympian gods

and how that was all formulated.

00:41:24,760 --> 00:41:25,090

Okay.

00:41:25,203 --> 00:41:27,303

Well, it goes beyond my expertise.

00:41:27,303 --> 00:41:27,663

Certainly.

00:41:28,443 --> 00:41:29,943

From what I understand though.

00:41:29,993 --> 00:41:32,423

Homer and he's yet are the ones that we.

00:41:32,423 --> 00:41:34,493

look to when we think

about the Olympian gods.

00:41:35,123 --> 00:41:39,203

And Homer of course is more familiar

to us, the Iliad and the Odyssey.

00:41:39,953 --> 00:41:42,299

But He's placing all this activity.

00:41:42,350 --> 00:41:44,210

500 years before when he's writing.

00:41:44,210 --> 00:41:45,110

So he's writing..

00:41:45,469 --> 00:41:50,223

Something like the eighth century BC,

. We don't know the exact dates on Homer.

00:41:50,539 --> 00:41:52,069

So he's writing them.

00:41:52,069 --> 00:41:56,959

And at that time, then he's got to have

that background of people who already

00:41:56,959 --> 00:41:59,239

know about these guys to some degree.

00:41:59,929 --> 00:42:01,249

So probably.

00:42:02,003 --> 00:42:04,883

at least by eight or 900 BC, you have.

00:42:04,903 --> 00:42:08,923

The worship of the Olympian gods, or

at least people familiar with them.

00:42:09,133 --> 00:42:10,093

Yeah, that makes sense.

00:42:10,513 --> 00:42:11,863

Unless he's just making it up.

00:42:13,093 --> 00:42:14,593

Is there any possibility that he is?

00:42:14,593 --> 00:42:15,763

He's just writing a story.

00:42:16,003 --> 00:42:19,873

I think archeology, you have

other evidence of, of people

00:42:19,873 --> 00:42:21,343

recognizing and worshiping the gods.

00:42:21,703 --> 00:42:22,243

Before.

00:42:22,543 --> 00:42:23,503

Homer would be dated.

00:42:24,403 --> 00:42:28,396

And, but what's interesting though,

is that later on, say by about.

00:42:28,396 --> 00:42:30,656

400 BC, 300 BC.

00:42:31,369 --> 00:42:34,249

The Olympian guys are not

really that honored anymore.

00:42:34,249 --> 00:42:38,089

They're not looked up to you have revival,

the same themes and sometimes the same.

00:42:38,136 --> 00:42:40,896

Activities with their earlier

stream, the shapeless stream

00:42:40,926 --> 00:42:41,916

that we were talking about.

00:42:42,779 --> 00:42:46,869

in that sense, we tend to view the

Olympian gods as defining all a Greek

00:42:46,869 --> 00:42:48,219

ancient history in the worldview.

00:42:48,609 --> 00:42:51,219

But it was more, not a

blip on the radar screen.

00:42:51,219 --> 00:42:52,119

It was much more than that.

00:42:52,509 --> 00:42:56,293

But it certainly wasn't the dominant

way people thought about mythology.

00:42:56,293 --> 00:42:57,343

In ancient Greece.

00:42:57,373 --> 00:42:59,893

If you look at the whole history,

that's totally different than I.

00:42:59,893 --> 00:43:00,763

Would've imagined.

00:43:00,823 --> 00:43:01,693

I mean, Yeah.

00:43:02,653 --> 00:43:04,213

And there seems to be.

00:43:04,213 --> 00:43:05,953

Uh, parallel between people.

00:43:05,953 --> 00:43:11,893

Beginning to develop city states and

then worshiping the Olympian gods instead

00:43:11,893 --> 00:43:14,293

of the previous more irrational God.

00:43:14,623 --> 00:43:17,143

Uh, God's or divine or

however you want to call it.

00:43:17,923 --> 00:43:20,953

So there seem to be then an

understanding we need order.

00:43:21,223 --> 00:43:24,229

We need harmony and that's

what the Olympian gods did.

00:43:24,629 --> 00:43:27,189

they emphasized order and harmony.

00:43:27,189 --> 00:43:29,139

They emphasize masculine traits.

00:43:29,139 --> 00:43:30,219

As they understood them.

00:43:30,669 --> 00:43:34,509

Uh, Paula was kind of the arch type, you

know, he was a warrior, but he was also,

00:43:34,509 --> 00:43:36,759

this very rational being appropriate.

00:43:37,089 --> 00:43:38,379

Proportions and harmony.

00:43:38,926 --> 00:43:40,846

So you had this outward orientation.

00:43:41,276 --> 00:43:42,573

So I remember in the previous.

00:43:42,573 --> 00:43:44,763

mythology had a dour orientation.

00:43:44,763 --> 00:43:45,753

You went into the earth.

00:43:46,083 --> 00:43:47,193

There was mother earth.

00:43:47,673 --> 00:43:48,613

Now you have.

00:43:48,613 --> 00:43:52,873

Zeus as the ultimate one on top of

this highest mountain in Greece.

00:43:53,713 --> 00:43:55,153

And he had people viewing.

00:43:55,153 --> 00:43:57,786

The guys is basically

inhabiting the sky region.

00:43:57,996 --> 00:43:59,556

That's where their

activities are kind of at.

00:43:59,856 --> 00:44:03,516

So, so they reside there on Mount

Olympus, but really, I think.

00:44:03,573 --> 00:44:05,613

There's more of an

emphasis that these people.

00:44:05,749 --> 00:44:07,429

Our dwelling in the sky as it were.

00:44:07,879 --> 00:44:11,629

So it's an outward orientation

has to be downward it's masculine

00:44:11,629 --> 00:44:12,619

instead of the feminine.

00:44:13,039 --> 00:44:16,149

It's ordered in harmony

instead of the irrational.

00:44:16,149 --> 00:44:17,319

And mystical union.

00:44:18,069 --> 00:44:20,829

And so There's quite a bit

of difference between these.

00:44:21,219 --> 00:44:23,899

And all this is going to

be mixed together then.

00:44:23,899 --> 00:44:24,859

In Greek culture.

00:44:25,896 --> 00:44:27,323

I should emphasize though, that.

00:44:27,323 --> 00:44:32,009

Though the Greek gods may individually

symbolize some sort of rationality.

00:44:32,669 --> 00:44:36,599

If you looked at the ultimate reality

of even the Olympian, religion.

00:44:37,709 --> 00:44:40,319

I think you'd have to say

that irrational again.

00:44:40,469 --> 00:44:41,369

Anti rational.

00:44:42,059 --> 00:44:43,409

But what, determines everything?

00:44:44,009 --> 00:44:44,759

It's fate.

00:44:45,126 --> 00:44:46,266

It's blind faith.

00:44:46,866 --> 00:44:48,906

Even the gods are subject to it.

00:44:49,746 --> 00:44:54,619

Even the gods cannot change fate And

fade is not there for a purpose.

00:44:54,619 --> 00:44:59,359

There's no one directing fate towards a

reason towards a purpose towards a goal.

00:44:59,839 --> 00:45:04,999

It's simply is in that sense, it

is fundamentally non rational.

00:45:05,714 --> 00:45:08,234

so Greek, religion

seats, then to me to be.

00:45:08,234 --> 00:45:10,694

Uh, way to try to impose.

00:45:10,802 --> 00:45:11,552

Order.

00:45:11,626 --> 00:45:12,556

Harmony.

00:45:12,681 --> 00:45:13,821

and these other things.

00:45:14,331 --> 00:45:16,221

While at the same time at the heart of it.

00:45:16,365 --> 00:45:17,805

Fate is kind of.

00:45:17,994 --> 00:45:20,124

The same thing is that shapeless stream.

00:45:21,114 --> 00:45:23,664

It's maybe a more

philosophical way to put it.

00:45:24,744 --> 00:45:25,524

you've got this.

00:45:25,802 --> 00:45:26,972

Irrational.

00:45:26,972 --> 00:45:31,112

Non purposeful because

it's a non-personal forest.

00:45:31,532 --> 00:45:33,122

That directs everything.

00:45:33,392 --> 00:45:34,982

And that's at the heart of reality.

00:45:35,511 --> 00:45:37,341

And that's where Greek

philosophy is going to begin.

00:45:38,180 --> 00:45:38,390

Hmm.

00:45:39,565 --> 00:45:41,455

one other thing here about ethics.

00:45:41,455 --> 00:45:44,065

in Olympian, religion, you're not

going to get ethics from the gods.

00:45:45,385 --> 00:45:46,135

And they had their own.

00:45:46,465 --> 00:45:47,635

Ethical issues.

00:45:47,665 --> 00:45:48,115

Yeah.

00:45:48,145 --> 00:45:50,605

If we can impose that

kind of anachronistically.

00:45:51,819 --> 00:45:53,379

Zeus was a greater sitter.

00:45:53,409 --> 00:45:56,409

If you can use that term than the average

Greek would have been, I would guess.

00:45:57,557 --> 00:46:03,077

But the big emphasis here is on a

type of moderation, avoiding hubris.

00:46:03,647 --> 00:46:09,017

Exceeding your place, therefore, so

hubris isn't quite the same as private.

00:46:09,047 --> 00:46:09,767

It has the idea of.

00:46:09,789 --> 00:46:13,584

wanting too much and going

beyond transgressing, the

00:46:13,584 --> 00:46:15,054

barriers of what it means to be.

00:46:15,054 --> 00:46:15,684

A human.

00:46:16,284 --> 00:46:20,291

And then either the

gods or more fully fate.

00:46:20,951 --> 00:46:23,711

Will punish you to restore

the balance as it were.

00:46:24,431 --> 00:46:26,411

His fate kind of like karma.

00:46:27,248 --> 00:46:29,798

It's similar, but it's not quite the same.

00:46:30,238 --> 00:46:34,228

. They're both impersonal forces that

control things, but I think the mechanism.

00:46:34,438 --> 00:46:34,678

Okay.

00:46:35,308 --> 00:46:39,448

I mean, karma is probably a little

bit more of a technical term than it's

00:46:39,448 --> 00:46:40,978

more developed and more developed.

00:46:41,008 --> 00:46:45,208

And as I'm thinking about it, when

I just see memes about instant karma

00:46:45,208 --> 00:46:46,288

and that kind of thing, so yeah.

00:46:46,588 --> 00:46:46,858

Okay.,

00:46:47,524 --> 00:46:49,354

. So we we've been talking a lot.

00:46:49,354 --> 00:46:50,374

There's been a lot here.

00:46:50,374 --> 00:46:53,194

I'm just wondering, if you can summarize

and then we'll talk a little bit

00:46:53,194 --> 00:46:54,754

about where we're going over the next.

00:46:54,754 --> 00:46:58,150

A few episodes main thing.

00:46:58,326 --> 00:46:59,406

Is that we study?

00:46:59,513 --> 00:47:02,843

The history, especially the

history of philosophy and ideas.

00:47:03,683 --> 00:47:06,983

Not to remember the past, but

to understand the present.

00:47:07,943 --> 00:47:10,733

These ideas we don't outgrow.

00:47:11,033 --> 00:47:12,413

We don't put them behind us.

00:47:12,833 --> 00:47:15,533

They're simply buried in

the subconsciousness of.

00:47:15,833 --> 00:47:17,873

Humanity or at least Western humanity.

00:47:18,593 --> 00:47:19,613

And these ideas.

00:47:20,734 --> 00:47:21,844

these ideas of this.

00:47:21,844 --> 00:47:23,164

Non rational.

00:47:23,164 --> 00:47:24,574

life force.

00:47:24,844 --> 00:47:29,374

That just is here, that all things

are related to, but it's not directed.

00:47:29,914 --> 00:47:34,834

These ideas of valuing the mind

or the soul above the body.

00:47:35,224 --> 00:47:36,994

And having two spheres.

00:47:36,994 --> 00:47:39,614

As it were of body and soul within.

00:47:40,274 --> 00:47:43,492

Within a human and valuing soul over body.

00:47:44,249 --> 00:47:48,329

These things influence is still today

and they're going to influence greatly.

00:47:48,869 --> 00:47:51,749

The dailies and the others

philosophers are going to talk about,

00:47:52,049 --> 00:47:53,279

they're going to influence Plato.

00:47:53,879 --> 00:47:56,669

And Plato is the one who probably

more than any other person

00:47:56,699 --> 00:47:57,899

influenced Western thought.

00:47:58,559 --> 00:48:00,209

Other than the scriptures themselves.

00:48:00,629 --> 00:48:03,479

I think if you want to understand

Western thought, you're looking

00:48:03,479 --> 00:48:05,369

at primarily two streams.

00:48:05,399 --> 00:48:08,609

One is Greek philosophy,

especially Plato Aristotle.

00:48:08,639 --> 00:48:09,509

What comes out of that?

00:48:10,169 --> 00:48:12,119

And then the other is biblical thought.

00:48:12,659 --> 00:48:17,159

And how those two things mesh together

is the history of Western thinking.

00:48:18,339 --> 00:48:18,579

.

Wow.

00:48:18,609 --> 00:48:18,819

Okay.

00:48:18,819 --> 00:48:19,239

That's great.

00:48:19,239 --> 00:48:19,539

Thank you.

00:48:19,539 --> 00:48:20,589

So, where are we going?

00:48:20,739 --> 00:48:21,579

Where are we going from here?

00:48:21,579 --> 00:48:22,479

What's the next episode?

00:48:22,659 --> 00:48:22,899

All right.

00:48:23,349 --> 00:48:27,039

With that background, we're going to

be talking about the earliest attempts.

00:48:27,109 --> 00:48:29,269

of human reason to understand the world.

00:48:29,659 --> 00:48:31,939

Now based on the traditions aid received.

00:48:32,199 --> 00:48:34,329

But through using the human mind itself.

00:48:34,809 --> 00:48:36,009

Now we have to understand.

00:48:36,009 --> 00:48:38,949

They're in a sense are going

to be dependent on the things

00:48:38,949 --> 00:48:40,209

we've just talked about here.

00:48:40,809 --> 00:48:42,999

But the big step that

they're going to make, then.

00:48:43,112 --> 00:48:47,162

Is that they're going to try to

understand what reality consists of.

00:48:47,609 --> 00:48:49,679

using their human reasoning alone.

00:48:50,429 --> 00:48:54,239

Now, whether they understood how much

the reasoning was shaped by the culture

00:48:54,269 --> 00:48:58,049

they were in, or not, obviously that's

unclear to us and maybe it's going to

00:48:58,049 --> 00:49:03,195

vary by person, but out of that, seedbed

you have people who are going to arise.

00:49:03,975 --> 00:49:06,585

And they're going to say,

okay, what can we know about?

00:49:06,585 --> 00:49:08,505

What's ultimately real?

00:49:09,045 --> 00:49:11,355

So the first group of philosophers.

00:49:11,769 --> 00:49:14,469

Are really going to be focused

on the physical questions.

00:49:14,829 --> 00:49:16,809

Uh, what is the ultimate reality?

00:49:17,439 --> 00:49:19,809

What is that shapeless stream?

00:49:20,139 --> 00:49:21,189

Can we give it a name?

00:49:21,399 --> 00:49:23,829

What does it consist of

and how do other things.

00:49:24,069 --> 00:49:25,269

Come and go out of that.

00:49:25,689 --> 00:49:28,479

So they're going to be

focused on that idea.

00:49:28,929 --> 00:49:33,362

And that contrast then between the

one and how to explain the many

00:49:33,362 --> 00:49:35,429

based upon the one is going to be.

00:49:36,059 --> 00:49:39,329

Really at the heart of where we're

going or where rethought goes.

00:49:39,749 --> 00:49:41,129

In the next several centuries.

00:49:41,969 --> 00:49:42,299

Cool.

00:49:42,449 --> 00:49:43,859

Well, I'm looking forward to that.

00:49:43,859 --> 00:49:45,419

I think it will be really good already.

00:49:45,419 --> 00:49:47,069

This has been a great conversation.

00:49:47,519 --> 00:49:50,039

And packed full of a

lot of good information.

00:49:50,332 --> 00:49:51,652

so, so thank you so much.

00:49:52,132 --> 00:49:52,792

My pleasure.

00:49:53,332 --> 00:49:53,632

See ya.