Dive into the evolving world of church planting with expert Len Tang in this transformative episode of the Pivot Podcast. Len, director of the Fuller Church Planting Initiative, unpacks the latest trends and strategies in church planting that are reshaping how we approach ministry in the 21st century.

Discover why church planting is more crucial than ever and how it serves as the R&D wing of the church. Len shares insights on:

• Diverse models of church planting for different contexts
• The rise of co-vocational ministry and its impact on church planting
• Innovative funding strategies for sustainable church plants
• How established churches can support and learn from new plants
• The importance of leading with mission in denominational church planting efforts

Whether you're a seasoned pastor, a potential church planter, or a lay leader passionate about church growth, this episode offers fresh perspectives and practical wisdom for advancing God's mission in today's rapidly changing world.

RESOURCES MENTIONED:

• Fuller Church Planting Initiative: https://www.fuller.edu/church-planting/
• Planter Match website: https://plantermatch.org/
• Book: "Closing Costs: Reimagining Church Real Estate for Missional Purposes" by Dominic Dutra https://www.amazon.com/Closing-Costs-Reimagining-Missional-Purposes/dp/1666711683
• Exponential Conference: https://exponential.org/
• City to City church planting network: https://redeemercitytocity.com/

Len Tang: Church planting is the R&D wing of the church. The research and development wing. And so when you think about any tech company or, you know, right, it's like the the path to the future is to invest in R&D is to to take risks, creative risks that pave the way for the future. And so I think, well, that's we sort of outsource risk to church plants. Right. And we learn from them by watching the way they they find the intersection between gospel and culture in a particular context. And we say, oh, that's that's how we learn to reach scientists in this particular context, or that's how we we learn to reach teachers in the school district. Right. You you see them in real time, living out this missional call and the way they embed themselves in a community. And those, again, those those sensibilities tend to go away in established churches over time. So there's a natural renewal that happens when we when churches are willing to plant churches and see that that R&D happening, like I said, in real time.

Terri Elton: Hello everyone, and welcome to the Pivot Podcast. This is the podcast where we explore how the church can faithfully navigate a changing world. I'm Terri Elton and today I'm joined with Michael Binder. Welcome, Michael.

Michael Binder: Glad to be here. If you're not familiar with what we do at pivot, we believe there are four key pivots that God is calling the church to take in the 21st century, and they are a pivot in posture from fixing problems to listening and discerning where God is leading us. A pivot in focus from membership to discipleship. A pivot in structure from one size fits all models of ministry to what we call a mixed ecology and a pivot in leadership from clergy led, lay supported ministry to lay led, clergy supported ministry.

Terri Elton: That's a lot. You did that really well. Thank you very much. Thank you Michael. And that's partly why we're excited today to have our guest, Len Tang, to the show, who specializes in both missional leadership and church planting, which is right in a variety of these pivots. But specifically, as we think about the mixed ecology and one size fits doesn't fit all anymore. So, Len, welcome to the show and we're excited to have you on today.

Len Tang: Yeah, great to be with you, especially since I got to meet you in person a few weeks ago.

Michael Binder: Yeah. Thanks for being with us. Len, can you start out by maybe just telling us a little bit about your journey into church planting?

Len Tang: My journey in church planting is inextricably connected to my conversion story, because I showed up at The College at Berkeley as an agnostic at best, but leaning more towards atheist, and through the bold witness of several Christian groups. I was led to Christ as a freshman. And so the power of evangelism was, you know, as part of my own story. And then I also kind of recognized that part of my gifting was to just start new things, even when I was in high school. I started, you know, teacher evaluation process. And when I was in college, I started a small software business. And so when people kind of got to know my story, they would say, oh, evangelism plus entrepreneurship equals church planting for many. And so that seed was planted in my my mind and heart. But it took a while. There was quite a long, as I call it, gestation period before I planted, but ended up planting two churches, one outside of Portland, Oregon, and was there for 11 years, and then moved here to Pasadena and then ended up planting a church called Missio about seven years ago. So church planting has kind of been in most of my adult life and ministry, and I'm super excited to continue in that. Through my role as the director of the Fuller Church Planting Initiative and continuing to lead Missio here in Pasadena. I love.

Terri Elton: That. I feel like you just really quickly skipped over. I introduced a teacher evaluation process and started a tech company in there. Minor things, but that might take us off. Um, it sounds like entrepreneurial spirit has been a part of you. That's kind of fun. So in these years that you've been just even in church planting, how have. How would you say that the whole landscape has changed both in overall some things you've seen in the church, but specifically with regard to church planting.

Len Tang: Depending on the time frame that you look at, I think right now church planting is not cool. It's not cool in the way that it used to be, right? I think some people would say we're past peak church planting in terms of mindshare and desire. And some of that is healthy because there are lots of bad reasons to plant a church. Um, whether that's, you know, for ego or you can't, you know, be under other's leadership or you think it's cool or you want to colonize your city in some particular way. But so I think there's some, some, some upsides to that. But I think, you know, overall, um, church planting has become more difficult. And we can talk more about that a little bit of why, um, over the last decade or decade and a half, but I think kind of a couple of the interesting and encouraging things are, one, that there's this there's a tremendous diversification in church planting, lots of different levels. Um, there's a diversification of church planting models, right? I think, you know, in the past, people thought of it as a one size fits all, that there was sort of like the launch large model, you know. And now, you know, at Fuller, we would say there's probably seven primary church planting models and lots of different hybrid variations of those. And I think that's a great thing because, you know, even the church in the New Testament took lots of different forms. And, you know, form follows function as we're seeking to reach people with the gospel. It's going to take all kinds of forms. So the ways in which we're planting are changing significantly. And the people who are planting are diversifying. That's mirroring the the diversification racially and ethnically of our country. So there are many more diverse planters. I was just talking this week with stadia, church planting, and they were saying that 40% of the folks going through their assessment process, which is one of the most widely used assessment processes, are now people of color. And so that's a huge jump, you know, from what it was before. So we're planting in diversifying communities, right. that the, the the the ground is sort of shifting under many congregations who don't know what to do with a neighborhood that no longer looks like it did 10 or 20 years ago and is very different than the makeup of the congregation. So those are all, I think, differences that are that are happening. And I think the importance of partnerships has really grown for, for the sake of planters. Um, previously, of course, it was really you planted through your denomination, kind of in a franchising model. And in the last 20 years, you know, particularly has seen the rise of these independent parachurch style church planting networks. And I think they they play a really important role in the overall ecosystem of church planting, because they have an intensive focus on planters. They're they're laser focused. They don't carry some of the challenges and oversight responsibilities that traditional denominations have. And so we say, you know, planters today are kind of like NASCAR cars. They got a bunch of different stickers on them, right? You know, you might be planning with a methodist, but you're getting assessed by stadia and you're getting coaching through, uh, you know, through another, you know, network. And to me, that's healthy. It's like the whole body of Christ. It takes a village to launch a planter. So kind of becoming aware of the resources that are out there. Um, from from networks to, you know, specific training tools to, uh, models, those are all creating this kaleidoscope of opportunities, sometimes overwhelming. But on the whole, I think it's it's a kingdom win to to help planters find the, the means and the method and the theological approach that really fits who they are.

Terri Elton: I kind of like the NASCAR image. I don't know about you, Michael. I'm going to leave with that today.

Michael Binder: That is a great that is a great metaphor. And it is true that that there used to just be one sticker. Right? And so to have that many support systems is hugely helpful. Tell us a little bit about what you think the biggest challenges facing church planters are today, Len.

Len Tang: I would start with the challenge around evangelism that one of the primary motives for church planters is to reach people with the good news of Jesus. There are other there are other valid motives. And in fact, I think if we preach a holistic gospel, we should have a holistic expression of that in terms of community impact, social justice like a fully orbed understanding, but that that initial impulse, like the Apostle Paul, of reaching people who hadn't been reached, is getting harder, right? I mean, it's it's self-evident that we're living in a secularizing society where church attendance is in decline and just the basic claims of the existence of God, let alone the supremacy of Jesus Christ, right, are really challenged on philosophical and cultural grounds. So that's its own whole thing. Like, um, what does it what does a, uh, for some an urban apologetic look like? What does a cultural apologetic look like? How is that embodied by the church? So those are huge challenges facing the enterprise of church planting, because evangelism has been and remains such a critical, you know, crucial part of the calling to plant. So I think that's a that's a big one. Um, another would be, I think the relative lack of, uh, sending churches that that, um, you know, it's the goal of the Exponential Conference to increase the number of multiplying churches to like 16%, which they think is a tipping point. Um, but I think that, you know, and in some cases that's growing. But, um, because so many churches are struggling to just Survive. Now the idea of being a mother church, a birthing church, a multiplying church, you know, is terrifying. And so there's more of a siege mentality rather than a sending mentality. And I think the healthiest churches are churches. The healthiest church plants come out of existing churches that have good DNA, like there's a lot of parachute plants, and there's a lot of ones that are birthed by middle governing bodies or church planting networks. But I would say on the whole, the healthiest churches come out of healthy churches. So the fewer healthy churches we have, the more challenging it is to launch healthy churches. Right. Just becomes a little bit of a vicious cycle. And then I think the money question is remains is that as again, we have diversifying churches, um, planters of color typically have less access to resources to plant. And so we need to have a different financial models, whether that's vivo or, you know, even training planters to be by vivo. Um, so I think the funding issue of and and planters considering like multiple income streams, starting a nonprofit or a for profit or, um, some creative partnership that, um, for the church, for the, you know, for the church plant for the sake of the city that also generates revenue. That's an economic engine. So I think those are at least a few of the big challenges that are facing planters today.

Terri Elton: I'm fascinated by that list, Len, because I think in different denominational bodies that I encounter, there's some there's some mind shifts that have to happen, right? Like, we've we've had some conversation around here around funding sources. There are people that want to support this kind of work. Right. But the connections between who's equipped or passionate or ready to do it and where those sources are, Ah, there's just not a connect. They don't know how to find each other. Right. Or because I think some of those came from established churches that use the denominational mindset. Right. If I just invest in the denomination or the centralized part of a church, you know, I think Lutherans aren't known for their evangelism. And if and if the new way to start churches is to tell people about Jesus, that's a muscle that we haven't always been willing to do. Right. So I think each of those have for different church, existing churches, established churches, some shifts in my in how they approach this, that our mind shifts.

Michael Binder: I agree, I think, I think also the connection to really trusting God that as you let go of people, you know, if you're a if you're a sending church that lends describing, if you let go of people, if you let go of resources, and even particularly if you let go of how you think church is supposed to be done. Because even the healthy church's lens describing they often give the new church's freedom to do things differently than they've done them. But their relationships are healthy. Their connection to God is healthy, their theology is good, but they often do things, you know, in a different way. And I think the siege mentality that Len's describing is kind of causing people to to, you know, clamp on to what they have and just try to protect it. And, you know, the the heartbeat of Christian theology, I think, is, is letting go and giving ourselves up for the sake of the other. But it's hard. It's not easy and it's risky.

Terri Elton: I'm laughing because I have two young adult children. This sounds a little like parenting. Sending them off? Yeah. Let them go. Trusting that they're going to do it different. Yeah. And that there's been some health in what we've done and that they will call their mother at some point, right. Or something. Well we'll see. It helps when they have babies and dogs that need to be babysat. But that's another podcast. Yeah, a different topic. Len, as we many of our listeners are in established churches right there, they're not going to be the church planters or even starting kind of new communities. Right? Missional communities that might be micro churches or something like that. What kind of ideas or support or what could you say to those established churches that would want to support church plants or learn from the work of these kind of ministries? What would you say to them?

Len Tang: Yeah, one of my favorite images of church planting is that church planting is the R&D wing of the church. Right. The research and development wing. And so when you think about any tech company or, you know, right, it's like the the path to the future is to invest in R&D is to to take risks, creative risks that pave the way for the future. And so I think, well, that's we sort of outsource risk to church plants. Right. And we learn from them by watching the way they they find the intersection between gospel and culture in a particular context. And we say, oh, that's that's how we learn to reach scientists in this particular context, or that's how we we learn to reach teachers in the school district. Right. You you see them in real time, living out this missional call and the way they embed themselves in a community. And those, again, those those sensibilities tend to go away in established churches over time. So there's a natural renewal that happens when we when churches are willing to plant churches and, and see that that R&D happening. Like I said, in real time.

Terri Elton: I love what you just said and I don't want to jump over it. I think the longer a church has been together or moves into establishment, the easier it is to get connected from context, right? The church and culture, the gospel and culture kind of conversation. Church can kind of become an entity in and of itself. And so I love what you just said about you can't take any of those things for granted in a church. Plant. The gospel and culture question is so front and center, right? And I just think that's like helpful for us to even that's a question we could all ask. Right. And to say, hey, what can we learn from them? But then what could I be learning in my own context? So I just appreciate the way you said that.

Len Tang: Well, and just to keep going with that idea, I think there are ways that all established churches can can practice small missional experiments, right. That don't. You're not betting the farm. You're not, like, completely changing the worship service, but you're identifying, you know, the apes, the apostolic, prophetic, evangelistic folks in your congregation and giving them some encouragement and training and maybe even a little funding to try things that might not work. And that's okay to normalize some failure for the sake of, um, seeing what God is doing, you know, in that cultural context. And so there's, there's a whole spectrum from like planting an autonomous church all the way to like, you know, starting, you know, starting a Bible study at the local YMCA, you know, whatever that might be. And there's a whole range in between. And, and I also encourage individual congregations to consider partnering with a few other congregations in their region to join forces and to feel like, hey, we're a missional team, and we're going to maybe even identify some leaders from multiple congregations. The first church I planted in Portland actually was planted by three churches that were kind of three parent churches, which was wonderful because they came from different geographical, they had different giftings. And and it really helped with building a launch team as well. So that, I mean, we were we were kind of viable right out of the gate because of that, the partnership between those three churches. So partnerships sometimes, though, a partnership can result in a church planting internship or residency, right? That's jointly shared. Sometimes a larger church or group of churches can be a church planting hub where there's some central training that happens. So kind of, you know, releasing our imagination about what churches together could do that they couldn't do alone, but maybe not quite at like a, a conference level or a denominational level, because you still share that common context and a desire for your, you know, the communities that you that you live in. And then maybe the last sort of paradigm would be sort of the missionary paradigm is to kind of think of church planters as missionaries to the West, like to our own communities, and thinking about, um, kind of the traditional things of like we, we pray for them, we put their magnet on our refrigerator. Right. We support them financially. We get prayer updates from them. We pray for them in the worship service. Like, again, kind of shifting to a missional slash missionary paradigm. Um, because that is that's the current culture we're in, right? It's it requires a missionary posture. And so church planters are missionaries to to our own culture.

Michael Binder: Sometimes established churches feel threatened by the presence of new churches, especially in their own, you know, in their own proximity, in their own neighborhood. And folks in established churches have asked, you know, why? Why would we support or encourage a new church to be started here, when there are lots of established churches that still need help and resources? Do you have a way that you address that for for audiences that are wondering why they would do that?

Len Tang: Yeah, I have there's there's sort of a glib answer to that, which I'll start with and then, you know, apologize for, you know, you might have, might know the phrase that it's easier to birth a child than to raise the dead. Um, again, that could not that could land in the wrong way. Sure. But, um, but part of the way to bring new life sometimes it is revitalization. And that's a critical aspect of the work of the church and of denominations. Yeah. And another critical work is to start new things and sort of the the idea is if those existing churches were reaching unchurched people. They would be doing I mean, it would be happening. And the you know, there's a reason why it isn't happening and why there's a need for a church plant because they have a burden and a calling and maybe a gifting and the risk tolerance to to reach new people in new ways. Right. So, um, is that threatening to current churches? Yes, it typically is. Um, and I think like like we said earlier, you know, part of the gospel call is you must lose your life to save it, right? You know, the minute we start thinking our survival is the main priority, we have already lost. Yeah. Right. Amen. Um, so, um, again, considering what can we learn from these missional experiments that are, that are happening out there and hopefully they're reaching people that, you know, we couldn't reach. And the other thing, you know, I've seen in the churches I've planted, when people have come from other churches. It's, um. One is I have seen very few leader type comes. These are people that are on the fringes of their current churches, at least in my own personal experience, and they get activated because generally speaking, you start with a small core team, and I've seen those people who've been sitting in the pews and on the sidelines their whole lives, or even if they're young adults, you know, for their, you know, for however long they've been alive, get activated, um, have leadership roles, participate in worship, you know, try things. So to me, that's a kingdom win that when we're activating more people in the capital C church for mission and for ministry, like that's a win. So I don't know if a, you know, an established pastor would necessarily rejoice in that. But I think that's objectively true is there's a much higher percentage of folks in a church plant who are engaged in active ministry than in a traditional established church.

Terri Elton: Well, and I'm going to say something that feels maybe it's kind of basic, but it as I understand the mandate out of Scripture, we're called to do this like to every generation to share the good news of the gospel. And, and I think sometimes that can happen within similar frameworks, boxes, methods, church models. And sometimes that's going to be different. And isn't that our call? I mean, I don't mean that it's not threatening, right? But I think sometimes I, as a church leader and the church leaders that I get get so busy with running church business that I forget the call, the bigger call, right. The call to be a leader in God's mission in God's world. And and I think sometimes I just need to be reminded. Hey, folks. Right. And these people need you here. And these people need something else. It's okay. Right.

Michael Binder: That's a super important message though. So let's just underscore that, because I have met lots of folks in established churches who feel like they've failed, right? They feel like they're failing God, that they've not been faithful because their church is dwindling. Or or maybe it won't make it a lot longer. And I try to say, you know, no particular form of church is the church, and we shouldn't expect any form of church to live a really long time. They have life cycles, just like humans have life cycles, and it's okay for them to do the work that they're called to do, and then pass on their life to the next generation in a different form, but with the same heartbeat, with the same concern for the things that God cares about, with the same focus on following Jesus and being led by the spirit. So I hope maybe just if you're one of those persons listening to this like it's it's okay for a church to not continue on into the next generation. What isn't okay is if we're not able to let go of some of what we have held on to so that the next generation can do it the way that God's calling them to do it. And we really need you to bless that next effort. Yeah. And not withhold your approval of it, because it means a lot to that next generation to get that approval.

Len Tang: Yeah. And I think we might have talked about this when we were together because our our friendly facilitator, Nick warns, you know, talks about that life cycle a lot. And he says we need to normalize. Um, reproduction. Right. Like all living things get to a place of fertility and they should reproduce, birth something new, and then all living things die. And we should normalize death and accept that when it comes as well. So it's both right. Normalizing. Birthing and normalizing passing away. Yeah.

Terri Elton: Well, and I think of even the normal things of life within life cycles. Right. I'd like to go to things that we can understand. We don't get around the same way we did three generations ago. Right? We we live in different kind of buildings or, you know, like, there's all kinds of basic things that we evolve with. It makes sense that the church would also be a part of that. So I just think it's it's for me why I love the mixed ecology conversation, because I think we've in the past bifurcated these conversations and say, it's got to be this or this or these people can only learn from these like minded things where we're saying, no, we need it all. Because the challenge is the challenges in front of us are so big, and the gospel message is so important. And that's why we all show up to do this work. Mhm.

Len Tang: Amen.

Michael Binder: Len, tell us what advice you would give to someone considering church planting.

Len Tang: I think the first thing would to be to get really clear on their sense of calling. Um, that might seem like super obvious, but what I find when I interact with planners is that they have a, um, they have a certain level of understanding of their own calling, but it hasn't been, um, mined to its depth yet. So they have a call, there's the broader call to ministry, and then there's the specific call to planting. Right. That's, you know, I call it it's a call within a call. Um, part of it has to do with gifting, like we mentioned, the APEs, the versus the shepherd teachers. I think that, you know, discerning, you know, your gifting for that. But I for me, part of it is making sure that planters have gotten clear in their discernment process through prayer and counsel and conversation, sometimes through formal assessment processes of knowing the people group that they feel burdened for. Again, if you're a missionary, there's like a country and a people group. So same thing. Who are the people that God has placed on your heart? Maybe it's a neighborhood. Maybe it's a specific demographic. But getting, you know, discerning that that, um, along the way and then, um, I think having a sense of, like the burden that you feel for that group, like the need, the, the holy discontent is the phrase we sometimes use and really mining that and helping planners by asking them why questions like, why do you feel that way? Why is that important to you? Why do you think the gospel addresses this issue that people are facing? So again, it's really basic, but I think we need to. Planners need to go really deep in Discerning the depths of their of their calling to planting, because it's going to answer a lot of other questions along the way. The second I would say call and then it would be community is like, don't plant alone, right? Like, this is not a solo sport. We need a strong and broad and deep and ecosystem as possible, like the NASCAR kind of thing. And, um, what, you know, when I'm talking to planters, I ask them, like, who's in your corner? What tribe are you connected to? You know, that's why we built the The Planter Match website that we were talking about before, planter match .org. You know, it connects planters to denominations or networks and coaches, so like, helping surround them. Again, this is also back to why I said that, um, a church's planting churches is the healthiest way because that ecosystem is already there. You probably already have a mentor in that old, you know, in that church, and the senior leadership already knows you and affirms you. And so there's all these, you know, benefits that come from from an organic, a relationally organic kind of planting context. But when you don't have that, then you do need to build a community around you. Um, and so really helping them. Sometimes we, we call that they're planters social base, you know, the web of relationships. Um, and then training, you know, like, like usually there's really specialized training that planters need. It's probably not just going to seminary. Um, it's probably not just like reading books and going to conferences. It's probably actually learning from folks who have done it in some, uh, kind of thoughtful, structured way in community with other planters. And that's again, why, you know, pursuing a denominational cohort or a or a church planting network and their, their training. Um, whether that's the city to city incubator or, you know, fuller length certificate or the faith and, you know, the Luther's, you know, training and certificate, like whatever that is. Like go get some specific training.

Michael Binder: Planter match .org, if you've not gone to that and you are wondering about where you might fit or where you might find support, you really have to see this website that Len and Fuller have put together. It is super helpful and very comprehensive. So do check that out. If you're listening.

Terri Elton: I'm going to jump in on a on a question that may seem odd to your denomination. I'm just going to say that what role do you see Bivocational pastors playing in church planting? And I say that because in my tribe by vocational is emerging and people don't know what to do with it, and a whole bunch of denominations are saying, well, this is normal, right? So for people that this isn't normal, can you talk about Out what what would be advantages with that? Why might that be a good thing to do? And as you're thinking about church planting.

Len Tang: Sure. Yeah. I think, um, bivocational planting is absolutely on the rise. In fact, several years ago, the, um, the North American Mission Board, you know, the church planting wing of the Southern Baptist Convention, which is the largest church planting network in the country, um, by quite a bit. Their goal several years ago was that half of their planters would be bi vocational. Wow. So I actually don't know why I haven't, like, checked in to know, like where are they in that process? But that just gives you a sense of how significant that the rise in this is. And I think there's two reasons. Well actually firstly let me just do a sort of definition thing. Sometimes bi vocational makes it sound like you're split between two vocations. Right. Like I'm just doing this other side gig in order to help pay for ministry, and for some that is the economic reality. Whenever possible, I prefer the term that Brad Briscoe, um, you know, came you know, I, I think he coined, which is co-vocational to think of two parts of one calling. So I have the privilege of being co-vocational in my role at Fuller and in leading Missio, I get to do two. There's two expressions of one calling to church planting to to multiplying, you know, in the kingdom. So whenever possible to think, um, to help planners think, what is my missional calling in the marketplace or in the community? And how is that a reflection of my missional calling to church plant? Yeah, of course, that's the ideal scenario. It doesn't. Sometimes that's a luxury. I get that, um, it comes from a place of privilege, but whenever possible, to bring them together I think is ideal. So there is a there is an economic, uh, motivation, obviously, that it takes some of the burden off of the plant to to generate the full salary of the planter. But there's also an additional dimension to it as well that in in that other calling, you're getting to rub shoulders with folks in your community. So in our denomination, there's a guy named Mark Wren who started a barbecue restaurant slash church plant. And so during the week he's running the restaurant, you know, and on Sundays the church meets in the restaurant, right. So it's generating revenue. It's making relationships. He's not like, you know, sharing the gospel with every customer that walks through the door. He's not wanting to lead, you know, in that way, but he's wanting to lead with relationship. So that's one of those kind of things. And I think one of the cool things that could happen in the future would be for many, like denominations and tribes, to work together to identify some what I would call like turnkey business opportunities for church planters that are like ready to go. They've been proven in multiple cities. They make they give connections to people in your community, you know, and like set them up for success.

Michael Binder: Well, I love that idea, Len. I got real excited about that idea as you were sharing it. That's a terrific plan. And I do think that sometimes folks think of vocational ministry or bi vocational ministry as like a step backwards, like we can't afford it anymore. So now we're doing this, and at least in my own experience, I chose to plant this way from the beginning intentionally in order to model for the rest of the church. This pivot that we talk about on this podcast, which is this isn't about a paid person doing ministry on your behalf. It's about a group of people who are here to equip you to follow the leading that God has in your own life. And I think by not having all full time folks who are quote unquote, responsible for the ministry. It helps everyone in the new church realize we all have a role to play.

Len Tang: Mhm. Yeah. Amen.

Terri Elton: How about and I want to just say one additional thing. Both Michael and I would I like that co vocational because both Michael and I live in various worlds by choice. Right. We wouldn't have to. And I think there is something to open up our imagination around church models and sustainability. And what I say about that is in my denomination, too much has been done on. You have to have a building, a full time person or more. And and the economic model is, is getting in the way of what you just said, right? It's made a professional with a high level of education that has this particular role in the center, as opposed to the work of the people, the sense of we're here to to share the gospel in a whole variety of ways that don't maybe even need this kind of a building for 24 over seven. Right. And, and so I'm excited about the that this kind of a model by vocational or co vocational to help us think of different models of church that aren't so economically strained and frees people to be on mission, if you will, right to to live their call in the neighborhood, in their day job, whatever it is.

Len Tang: Yeah, I think that's part of what fueled what's fueling the micro church movement, which, you know, might be the fastest growing segment in the church planting world where you're not going to the the intention is not to have a full time pastor, but, you know, it's empowering, you know, lay people to to reach the the micro culture that they're embedded in already. Um, so yeah, I think that's it. That creates an alternative economic model. And and many, many years ago, Neil Cole pointed out to that part of the reason that we have Attractional church as the dominant model is so that you can gather enough people to have an offering to pay the pastor, right. That the model is embedded in the sort of the continuance of a professional clergy person.

Michael Binder: That's a good segue into a question that we wanted to ask you about fundraising. Uh, do you have insights for people? How do they go about raising funds for new churches?

Len Tang: As I mentioned, I think the the it's on a case by case basis. There's like the kind of the one size fits all, like you get funding for 3 to 5 years and then you're on your own kind of model. That will work for a certain portion. But I think we need to like really expand our boxes about that. So we already talked about bi vocational, vocational, about multiple funding streams for the planter that they're working and turnkey businesses and that kind of thing to think about the fundraising from a, um, a perspective of how can how can you find missionary support, like, you know, we mentioned earlier is like depending on your context, it may take a long time. It might be ongoing, you know, it might be indefinite, uh, for that missionary support. Maybe they're serving in an under-resourced part of the, you know, part of the community. So to kind of expand our, our imagination and boxes around around how that's going to work. Mark Dumas has written a bit around some new forms of funding, like even starting nonprofits alongside churches, because nonprofits can receive grants and government funding that a religious institution might not be able to do. So I think that can actually enhance your mission calling like, oh, we're going to serve, you know, we're going to start a nonprofit to tutor kids in our community to address the education, you know, the the achievement disparity. And that's going to be able to get some some grants. And we're going to hire some tutors. And, you know, that's going to be a form of mentoring and discipling in our community. So it's I don't have a silver bullet. It's just like, let's just kind of think about all the possibilities of funding streams. If you have a if you have a facility or your parent church has a facility, there's a book that was just published called gone for good that's talking about the, the, the need to repurpose it and reuse church buildings and property for, for missional purposes. So that's kind of its own whole movement. There's another movement that's building affordable housing on church property, right? Where your housing people and zoning, you know, municipalities are changing zoning laws so it generates income for the church meets a need. You know, there's kind of a win win.

Terri Elton: So I want to look into the future a little bit as best as you can from your location. How do you see the future of denominations in relation to this? We've already talked about the shifts, but as you kind of think forward, say more about what you're what you're imagining or from where you sit.

Len Tang: I think a lot of times, um, denominations will say, hey, you should come with us because of our theology. Um, if you believe this, you should come with us. And that's a valid reason. I mean, there's there are good theological distinctives that each each denomination has. And I'm not saying we should. Those should all be erased. I think it's more important to lead with mission first and theology second to sort of say, this is the kind of, you know, church that we believe Jesus has for, uh, for this world. Do you want to be part of that? Yeah. Um, and we that's shaped by these theological convictions that, you know, again, just to lead with mission and let that be the way that we're you're drawing in planters, as well as as sharpening your existing pastures as well, is to keep prioritizing mission. I was mentioning the rise of these parachurch style networks, and part of that has been they are filling a gap that has been present in denominations just like college. You know, college ministries like Cru and InterVarsity were filling a college ministry gap that local churches couldn't do. These denominations are are providing a kind of laser focus on planters and their health and well-being. Um, because this is this is a very broad generalization, but, um, denominations tend to focus more on the health of the plant, right, and networks more on the health of the planter. And of course, both have to be healthy. But, uh, that's part of what draws planters to networks is they feel like, oh, wow, this is they're really about supporting me and encouraging me and surrounding me with in community rather than supervising me so that I create a successful plant with their brand. Now that's a little bit of a caricature, but I think the key is how does. How can denominations both provide all the wonderful things they provide history, uh, breadth, um, uh, established churches that can support them, um, all bring all those things in a relational, supportive context and way. So I think when denominations do it well, they kind of bring the best of both, right? Um, yeah. So I think that's part of it. And then I think most denominations, um, because of their history, were, you know, are typically majority culture kind of dominant. And as the country diversifies and right, in 20 years there'll be no majority ethnicity, then the need to, uh, elevate people of color, you know, so that when they come into your doors, they, they see people that look like them as coaches, as planters, as leaders, as sending churches. So the old adage, you have to see it to be it. So I think, you know, doing the hard work of diversifying, hopefully not in, you know, tokenizing ways, but with a genuine desire to say, we're going to build a future together that looks different than it is now, racially and ethnically. I think those are important leading edges for denominations, because the alternative is they will serve a smaller and smaller pie in the American, you know, religious landscape.

Michael Binder: That's the reality. Len, thank you so much for sharing your insights and wisdom with us today. Your expertise in church planting has given us our audience a lot to think about, and we're really grateful for your time.

Terri Elton: And to our audience, thanks for listening to this episode of The Pivot podcast, and we'd love you to spread the word. If you would go to our YouTube page and hit a like or subscribe to where you might find this on podcasts. We would love that. And you could even write a review if you want.

Michael Binder: The best compliment you can give us is sharing pivot podcast with someone you think it could be helpful for. So until next time, I'm Michael Binder. This is Terri Elton and we're grateful for Len. See you next week.

Faith+Lead voiceover: The pivot Podcast is a production of Luther Seminary's Faith+Lead. Faith+Lead is an ecosystem of theological resources and training designed to equip Christian disciples and leaders to follow God into a faithful future. Learn more at faithlead.org.