Thrive Beyond Pornography is about real change. Overcoming pornography was the hardest challenge of my life and marriage. It shattered my confidence, tainted my most important experiences, and felt impossible to escape.

But I did.

This podcast—and the resources at GetToThrive.com—will help you understand the struggle, break free from pornography, and build a thriving life with your spouse.

At some point, I stepped away from 12-step meetings and counselors. I stopped looking for outside solutions and started figuring out my own mind. That shift changed everything. Here, I share those lessons with you. You’ll get the tools, principles, and mindset shifts you need to reclaim control—starting today.

Whether you're struggling with unwanted pornography use, supporting a spouse, or just feeling stuck, this podcast will help you move forward. You’ll hear real conversations with my spouse, experts in human sexuality, and former users who have broken free.

Thrive Beyond Pornography brings a fresh perspective to your journey, helping you change the way you think—and, ultimately, the way you live.

Episode 112, 221 and 317

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I wanted to share with all of you this episode that we did a couple of years ago now on how sex is not a need, especially when you're trying to quit porn.

You don't have to have sex. In fact, sex seems to be part of a meaning frame that is about needs rather than choice and choosing each other and desire for each other in a non-differentiated way.

It's called enmeshment in their, you know, details that I would get into with you if I was coaching you. But I wanted to share this episode that Darcy and I did because I think it's a great opportunity as we go into the holidays. To really focus in and be like, how can I create desire within myself and within my spouse rather than working from a needs meaning frame where my wife or my husband feels like they have to service me?

Where they have to manage me. So I hope this is a helpful podcast. We'd love to hear from you, and we love working with people just like you. So feel free to go to zachspafford.com slash work with Thrive and we'd love for you to set up a free consult for 30 minutes. We just chat, see how you're doing, what we can do to help you quit porn and put you on the right track.

Alright, my friends. Without further ado, here's that episode and I'll talk to you guys next week. Hey everybody, and welcome to this podcast. I'm your host, Zach Spafford. I'm here with Darcey. Hey. Hi. Welcome to the podcast. How you doing? I'm great. You look good. Hey, Darcey and I were chatting on this Facebook group that we're a part of, and.

This, the topic of today's podcast came up. Before we get to that podcast, I want to share with you guys this review that we got from Canada. And the reason I know it's from Canada is 'cause I have this analytics software that kind of tells me. So if you're in ama, if you're in the United States, you won't see this.

But if you're in Canada, this will probably be my only rating. So if you are listening to this podcast, please feel free to go on Apple Podcasts and rate the podcast. You can put whatever you want 'cause this person's name is. Healthful orange, and I don't know what that means. Uh, the title was so helpful and they said so many great tips on helping my kids.

Thank you guys. Well, thank you for that helpful orange, and please guys send in all your podcast stuff. We love to see these reviews, helps us feel great about ourselves when we're, you know, lonely. And so today's podcast is that sex is not a need. So if you follow our Instagram, that's a post that we made like Friday or Saturday.

Because we were seeing this on this group, this group that we're a part of, and I was like, dude, this is this poor lady. So there's this lady and she was like trying to figure out her life and her, you know, her, her intimacy with her husband. And one of the things that she said, I'm trying to meet his needs.

And then she said enough of other things. But one of the basic meaning frames that we often use around sex is that we need it. And you know, this is interesting. Do you need sex? I don't need it, but I certainly like it. Right. Oh, me too. I totally like it. But I think also in the beginning of our marriage, what was the reality?

I thought I needed it. I thought that, you know, it was your job to supply it. Yeah, and I, and I definitely thought it was my job to supply it when we were first married. I even had a friend who was older than me, a lot older, said, don't ever turn your husband down, because if you do, he'll go elsewhere.

Right. It's, it's like not just an unspoken rule of marriage. It's a spoken rule of marriage sometimes. And sometimes men come to their spouses and ask them to meet their right, and sometimes wives meet their husband's needs, and then she'll be like, so now that I've met your needs, I have a list of things for you to do.

Darcy used to do this for me. She'd be like, all right, we're done having sex and now it's time for you to work for me. Yes. So I was looking at this post and this lady was talking about how she wanted to meet her husband's needs. And I think this wonderful woman was really indicating when she didn't meet her husband's needs, that became a source of friction and not the good kind.

And this is something that I think that we regularly understand this, I think lots of people, this is kind of the meaning frame that they bring to their marriages. It's like, I gotta do this, otherwise my spouse is not going to reciprocate and take care of my needs. The truth is that having needs reduces intimacy and it increases this sense of entitlement.

And I personally, I had to learn from myself that I don't have needs. What I have is wants. I have requests, I have desires, but I don't have needs. Do you have needs when it comes to sex? Yeah. No. No. Well, so this I think is part of the issue, right? Needs are. If you look at like the Maslow's hierarchy of needs, um, there's this bottom level and basically what it is, is it's food, shelter, a couple of other things.

Literally just to keep you physically alive. If you don't meet the needs of a baby, of an infant, there's a good chance that they will die or, you know, be mentally scarred by this. Yeah. I have a sister who's adopted from Kazakhstan. And when she was a baby, she was born at nine pounds, eight ounces. And when my mom and dad found her in the orphanage at seven and a half months old, she weighed six pounds, six ounces.

So it's very clear that her needs for food were not being met. And it's kind of interesting because the reason her needs were not being met was because she learned how to self-soothe. And so she would suck her fingers so she would never cry, and then they wouldn't feed her because she wasn't appearing that she was hungry.

Yeah, and by the way, she's lovely. This, this, but those were needs that weren't being met, and because they weren't met, she special needs, her brain did not get the nutrients and the fat that it needed to develop properly. Whereas when it comes to sex, that particular meaning structure means that I need the good functioning of someone else for my own good functioning.

And within a marriage, there is a certain amount of that, but it's very small. Then there's the differentiation setup, right? So this is where I don't need the good functioning of someone else so that I function well, right? That means that when Darcy doesn't necessarily meet my quote unquote needs of giving me sex, I'm still required to function well.

I don't have to have her doing things for me so that I can be a grown person, and that that is a huge difference. Between what I think most of us believe about, you know, what our partner is supposed to do, that fairytale like this person completes me, and we are one human versus we're two humans who choose to be around each other and love each other.

And I do consider Darcy when I make my decision, but I also make my decisions about what I'm gonna do because that's, that's what I want to do for me. Sometimes I do things in relation to her. Like for instance, this week I'm going up to Alaska for a funeral. Uh, and when I found out about it, I told my, I told Darcy, I said, I'm going up for this funeral.

I didn't ask her permission because I knew this would be important to me. I did consider how I could bring her along, but I didn't think, you know, I'm, I'm, I can't do this 'cause it'll, you know, ruin her week or anything like that. I was differentiated from her in that I thought, I'm gonna do this for me.

I'm gonna do what I need to do to meet the, to meet my obligations to being the person that I want to be. And you notice that I didn't say meet my own needs. 'cause that's not really the thing. I'm doing this to be, become the person I want to be. And that's the difference. And you know, I had to learn when it came to sex that I didn't have needs, I had wants, I had requests, I had desires.

And if your wife can't say no because. This is a need, right? So if I go to Darcy and I have to say, Hey Darcy, will you give me sex? And she thinks of this as a need, like we think of a need to feed children, what's her only option? What's your only option? If I come to you and I say, I need you to give me sex, and you think of it as a need, what's your only option to give in?

To do it? Yeah. How's that feel? That would not feel good to me. Right. And then what if you end up saying no for some reason? Then I would feel guilty. I would feel like I was responsible for whatever the consequences were of that. Whether it was that you went and looked at pornography, or if you were just super moody and grumpy and pouting.

You know, I would feel responsible for those emotions. I think there are so many wives who they, they're like, I, you know, it's. And this is absolutely not an accusation. This is just, you know, you're in a place where this is kind of what you believe. So if you're listening to this and you're like, oh, these guys are mad at me 'cause I'm right.

That's not what we're saying here. Just just be aware that what's actually happening is when you feel guilty because you didn't make love to your partner or have sex with them, or whatever you want, whatever you call it, you're not responsible for the choices they make afterward, right? And this is a, I think a, a good thing to think about.

Access to someone else's body is not a need. It's not, and this frame of reference is probably a significant part of why many are struggling with how to create intimacy in their marriage when we see sex as a sacrifice, right? Because if I come to you and I say, I need you to do this thing for me, and you don't really have a choice.

That becomes an automatic sacrifice. Mm-hmm. Right. Breastfeeding. I know you love breastfeeding, but that's a sacrifice 'cause it's months of your life. Mm-hmm. Hours of your time up in the middle of the night. Right. Husband can't help you do it, so it's not like a shared responsibility. Right. My job was always just to get the baby.

That was it. That's, that was all I could do. And that's, that's a need for that child. But when you can't say no to your spouse because they want sex, that's not gonna, that's not gonna make you want to have sex with. Yeah. And I have a acquaintance that I know, and we are having this conversation about sex and pornography and all of the, the things that we love to talk about.

And she had mentioned like, well, I have sex with my husband twice a day because. It helps him function well. It helps him have the energy he needs and it helps him to not turn to pornography. And so I'm more than happy to do that and I, I don't know her well enough to really like, dig into it and be like, okay, is, are you really happy with that?

Like, really happy with that? Or are you maybe just happy with the results that he doesn't pout or not work, um, to his highest functioning ability? Or, or are you just solving an immediate problem? Problem. Thank you, Zach. That affects the real long-term functioning of true intimacy. Yeah. Oh my gosh. Well, so there was a significant part of our relationship where you would have what we like to call duty sex with me.

Mm-hmm. For me, left me feeling empty because I, you know, I wanted an orgasm. Really what I wanted was to be intimate and to be capable on my own. And one of the things that I think occurs when it's a need to have sex is that you don't feel capable. You don't feel like you can stand on your own two feet.

'cause what if, 'cause if this is a need and your partner leaves, what? What is there? You have to find some other way to cope. You have to find some other way to manage the need. But if it ceases to be a need, what happens? You, you actually just get to choose who you wanna be. Well, yeah, and for me, I love to be intimate with Zach.

However, if he were to die tomorrow, I would still continue to live my life. Right. I, I would not have sex. You wouldn't replace me immediately? No. Well, personally, I would, I would go through that grieving process, and then I would also figure out, okay. Who do I wanna be? Do I wanna be somebody who is not capable of not looking at porn, not capable of not having sex, right?

Being trapped by your behaviors. That is a miserable place to be. That's why we call this the Self-Mastery podcast, because it's, it's not simply about switching a behavior, but it's really about getting free from behaviors that drag you down and turn you into somebody you don't want to be. So. Some of the questions that I think that we can ask, right, are, how can I maintain my sense of desire when I feel like sex is a sacrifice?

Because if, if you feel like sex is a sacrifice, do you want to be around that person all the time? Those of you, those women, those of you women who have kids who are young enough, right? Isn't there a point in your day where you're like, don't touch me. No one should touch me. I have given enough to you.

Now I need to go create my own space. And when your husband comes at you in a frame of need, like your children, do I need dinner? I need lunch. I need you to change my diaper. I need, guess what you're gonna feel about him? Like he's another child that you have to meet their needs. Yeah. How's that feel? Is, is that intimacy?

It wasn't for us. I could tell you that. And, you know, for me the, the process was, and this was in the beginning, it was hard. It was really hard 'cause I, I still felt these emotions, so I felt pouty and I felt frustrated and I felt lonely and I felt like Darcy didn't love me and she didn't want to meet my needs.

But I got to a place, this was a number of years ago where I started to, to really. Work to respect what Darcy wanted, I would say to her. So I would create an, an opening of a vulnerability. I would say, Hey, I'd like to make out tonight. That's what we say. We wanna have sex. I'd like to make out tonight. And I would leave it up to her whether she wanted to have sex or not.

And sometimes she would come to me and she'd be like, well, I'll take care of you. And my response to that was. No, I don't. I don't want that. What I want is to make love. I wanna be intimate with you. And in the beginning, how did that like mess with your mind? Well, it was super confusing 'cause I was like, wait, what?

You're actually not gonna take me up on this offer to just, you know, essentially be a stand-in or. The, the fact that he wouldn't pout, right? That he would just be like, okay, we can just cuddle and, and not try to make any more advances after that. Not try to make the moves. Try as I like to say, turn in, figure out what radio dial or how to like start the engine.

Right? And that was way different. But here's the really awesome part of that. When she would say yes, she was all in. Mm-hmm. And it's amazing. Yeah, right. When you're both all in, it's amazing. So the next question I would have anybody ask is, is my husband's request about him taking validation? Taking validation.

So a lot of times sex is about, you know, validating your partner, helping them feel okay. Right? That's what validation usually looks like. Or is his request about his desire for closeness? Does he want to be with me? Does he just want me to tell him he's okay through sex? And sometimes you'll wanna do that.

I'm not saying that that's gonna absolute, don't ever do that. But when you begin to differentiate, when you begin to create the separate individuals, what you're really gonna start to look for is, is this about him choosing me? And by the way, this goes both ways. So is her request about her choosing me or is it about them?

Basically demanding validation. That's what a need is. It's a demand for validation. And that's, that's sucky, right? I think we all have that friend who like, they tell us something and they absolutely expect us to be like, oh, you're amazing. Look how awesome you are. Look how good you look. You know? Yeah. I love those things.

Right, and eventually. There comes a point where it's just totally, totally disingenuous. It's totally fake all the way through. And no matter what you what, no matter what the conversation looks like with them, it's always fake. And that's, you don't want to do that with your spouse. You never wanna do that with your spouse.

Some of you are totally doing that, right? So please don't feel bad about this, but start to reflect on that and start to ask. Is what I'm doing about closeness with this person or is it about extracting some sort of validation from Well, and along those, I can personally feel the difference between a, a loving giving touch versus a taking touch, right?

Yeah. Like there's a huge difference there. And just the energy and the feeling that you experience when someone is trying to give to you through touch versus take. From you through touch. Yeah, absolutely. Okay. Last question that you're gonna wanna ask yourself, you're gonna want your partner to ask themselves is, am I willing to choose sex?

Only when I can track or when I can kind of tell. 'cause we can track. We can track our partner, we can track the emotions in others. We're really good at that. But only when I can track that he is seeking to be with me for the joy of being with me. Even though I know that will be uncomfortable, that's gonna be uncomfortable on both parts by the way, because you heard Darcy, you were uncomfortable.

You were like, what is going on here? Mm-hmm. And also the other part of that was that you found out over time that you could no longer control me with sex. Yeah. Right. And that was, that was our podcast last, was it last week? Maybe it was the week before. Yeah. But it was this moment where you had to step up your game to be like, oh, I can't use this as leverage anymore.

So I have to figure out a new way to interact with this relationship. So this is a doubly difficult thing because if you, you know, willing to choose sex, choose intimacy. Only when you can track that, it's about. Coming together for mutual closeness, not for one person to extract from the other. And even if that's uncomfortable, are you willing to do that?

I, I can tell you that I found a point in my life where I was like, I don't want Darcy to just meet my needs, quote unquote needs, because I'm here begging for her to do so. I want her to want me. I know that I quote cheap trick like way too much. Cheap trick is a band Darcy's given me this look like, who are you talking?

Never heard of them. But you know the song. I know, I know. You know the song. Right? Which is I want you to Want me. That is really where intimacy begins, is in what is the desire. Look on both parts. I want you to want me, but I'm also not willing for you to give to me just because I say so. So the first line I think is good.

And the second one, I need you to need me. That. That I don't think is a good line. All right, you guys, we love doing this podcast. Thank you so much for listening. We love you. We hope that you are having a great week. We will see you next week. Bye bye.