Join host R. Alan Brooks for a conversation with Los Angeles area based professor, author, graphic novelist, curator, and New York Times best-seller, John Jennings in today's episode of How Art is Born. Hear about Jennings’ discovering his love for art and comics, his early days as a graphic designer, self-publishing his own books, creating a new character for the Marvel universe, and more!

R. Alan Brooks:

Hey, I'm R. Alan Brooks. I am the host of this podcast,

Dele Johnson:

And I am Dele Johnson, editor and producer.

R. Alan Brooks:

So, listen, uh, this episode we're talking to John Jennings. Uh, he, I said this when I met him, but basically he is everything that I do, except with the volume turned up . Like he's a professor, uh, at, uh, uc, Riverside, I believe. He writes and draws graphic novels. Uh, he has a New York Times bestseller, graphic novel that he did. He has his pub own publishing imprint, and, uh, his comic book Pedigree is deep. We got into those conversations about some old heroes We got. We talked about Golden Age Heroes, public domain heroes. We talked about obscure characters from the eighties. And I had this worry that, uh, for people like you normals who are out there listening that you, like, we got too deep in the weeds with the comic book stuff, but, uh, I hope I was able to keep it there, you know? Cause clearly he and I could have just spent hours talking about that stuff. Cause it's just cool when you find somebody who connects on that stuff. Yeah. Especially like another brother, you know, who's really deep into that stuff. Yeah. Um, but I really did enjoy the conversation, and I think that, uh, anybody who's listening is gonna enjoy it too.

Dele Johnson:

Absolutely. And he is a common looklike. I think he could win a common lookalike competition for sure. He's, he's got the look, he's got the deep voice.

R. Alan Brooks:

Yeah. Right. The common swag. Yeah.

Dele Johnson:

We'll let y'all be the, the judges of that, though, in the video version. It's

R. Alan Brooks:

True. Oh, and also my, uh, sister and niece were visiting, and so they were here and, uh, we cut it out. But, uh, you know, I was fussing at them for making noise, but eventually they were quiet. My niece is eight years old, so it was very good for her to be quiet for that amount of time. Yeah. I

Dele Johnson:

Think she did a great job. Right on. She definitely kind of tuned out at one point. Yes. Jumped on the Nintendo Switch.

R. Alan Brooks:

She she did. Right. . And that was like a, a new birthday gift. So she was all the way in. Oh,

Dele Johnson:

Yeah. Oh, okay. Yeah.

R. Alan Brooks:

Yeah. Anyway, you guys check it out. Uh, make sure please, that you, uh, write reviews for this podcast, that you share it with your friends. Spread the word. It just helps us out. I mean, we're in season three of this, and we would like more people to hear it, so anyone who's listening to it, please share it. All right, you guys enjoy it. Welcome to How Art Is Born, a podcast from the Museum of Contemporary Art Denver, about the origins of artists and their creative and artistic practices. I'm your host, r album, Brooks, artist, writer, and professor. Today I'm joined by a greater Los Angeles based professor, orthographic Novelist, curator, and New York Times bestseller. John Jennings. Say hello.

John Jennings:

Hello. How are you doing? Thanks for having me,

R. Alan Brooks:

. Yeah, I appreciate you being here, man. It's like, uh, basically you, uh, reading off what you do is like reading off what I do, except Crunk turned up a little bit, you know, . That's

John Jennings:

Funny.

R. Alan Brooks:

. So, uh, how'd you, how'd you get into comics to begin with, man? Like, what was the beginning of your, you know, your love of this medium?

John Jennings:

R. Alan Brooks:

Yeah.

John Jennings:

And, um, yeah, she saw the connection between like, oh, the mighty Thor, and like, oh, he likes Norse mythology. He might like this kind of thing. Right. So, yeah. And that's kinda like why I started reading comics. Little

R. Alan Brooks:

Did she, that was this, uh, did she know that was this, I'm sorry, . There was this, uh, independent black film in the, in the nineties called Chameleon Street. Did you ever see that? Yeah,

John Jennings:

Yeah, yeah. On that? That's correct.

R. Alan Brooks:

Oh, yeah. Okay. So you remember there was a brother, uh, there's a scene where, uh, the main character's in jail, and he is talking to a brother and the brother's like, yeah. You know, I was really into th back then mm-hmm. , because he asked him how he got into jail and, and, uh, he said, I came in the room and I said, mother, what have become of my comics?

John Jennings:

.

R. Alan Brooks:

And that's how he ended up in jail.

John Jennings:

What had to come. Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. Cause that's what we actually like, you know, everybody has like, how, how I lost my comics story. Right, right. So, right. So sad.

R. Alan Brooks:

All right. So you got into it, man. So like, okay. So like, for me, uh, as I mentioned earlier, my pops got me into it when I was like five, around 10. My mom was like, I saw this thing in the paper. Uh, it's a comic book convention. Would that be something you're interested in ? And I was like, yeah. You know?

John Jennings:

Yeah. Right.

R. Alan Brooks:

And course I was, uh, this is in Atlanta. I grew up in Atlanta, so, uh, yeah, around, I was, you know, I was around 10. She just dropped us off cuz it was the eighties. And, uh, you know, comic Convent was maybe like 300 people. Uh, and I had one homeboy who was in the comic. So it was basically me and him was the only black people and the only kids. Hmm. Uh, did you get into that convention life early or was it just kind of like you reading, doing your own thing?

John Jennings:

No, I didn't have as much access. Cause you know, like I, I'm always, I always lament the day the comics left, you know? Cause I, like I said, I grew up in a small agrarian farming community, you know what I'm saying? Yeah. So I was, uh, you know, I would get my comics from say like spin racks and like Newstands. Right. And then of course, you know, late seventies when the direct market happens, all that appears, you know,

R. Alan Brooks:

Goes Right.

John Jennings:

And, um, you can't get comics anymore. Not, not the way you used to. So you would have to go to a specialty shop, a direct, direct market. And the closest direct market store was called the Star Store. It was in Jackson, Mississippi, which is, you know, it might, as for me, it might as well be on the other side of the moon. You know what I'm saying? , I was like, right. Yeah. So I didn't see comics like that for a while. And then, um, then here comes Eduardo. It's my Eduardo story, so, okay. I had an uncle, he was an artist at the time. He was the one that actually started me drawing comics and stuff. He was in the, he was in the drawing cartoons and stuff, but he was also, you know, dating a, a woman named Alice. And she was nice. And she had a son around my age named Eduardo, you know. Okay. And Eduardo was a massive comic book fanatic. And they lived in Mississippi and they lived around the corner from the Star store. So he literally had thousands of comics.

R. Alan Brooks:

Wow.

John Jennings:

Right. And so what happened was, um, this had to be like early eighties because I was thinking about the books that were, that he gave me. Right. His mother was going to, uh, chameleon Street was gonna get, was gonna get rid of, um, a bunch of his comics. So she, look, you need to get rid of, some of these are everywhere. We don't have space for this. And he had been, you know, they would come out and visit. And so what happened was, um, we would play together and he, we would be comics and stuff. Yeah. And he knew that I'd take care of him. So he gave me at least five or 600 comics, dude. Wow. And I'm talking, like, I'm talking like, stuff I had never seen before. Like, uh, right. Like Grim Jack, like nice, the str dog. Like wow. I'm like, I don't know who was buying him these comic, maybe he was just picking 'em up because of the covers or something, but I was like, his, yeah. His taste in comics was eclectic, , it was like, huh. Phenomenal. And so it just, that actually that whole collection carried my interest, you know, and, and changed the way I looked at comics, actually.

R. Alan Brooks:

Hmm. That's interesting that so many, there was so many Independences in there cuz uh, I missed a lot of those in the eighties because they cost more and they were black and white and they know

John Jennings:

I'm saying white. Yeah, yeah.

R. Alan Brooks:

So, like, I missed a lot. So I ended up catching a lot of those, like on, you know, in, uh, you know, boxes in the nineties, I would pull 'em out and try. Yeah. And I was like, these are actually pretty good. But I just, you know, basically when I was, you know, in the eighties, my mom or my dad would be like, you got $20 or you got $40, whatever it is to spend. Yep. And I would, you know, I'd be like, okay, can I get this one? No, I gotta get rid of this one. You know? So like, the independence, I was not trying to do it cuz they cost more. Yeah.

John Jennings:

Yeah. And for me, I was thinking like, um, you know, you were, you were in the Bud Plant, uh, catalogs. Yeah. Yeah. So you, you know, you, you would, uh, you would wait a minute, I just start about Denver ain't know what Mile how comics is, are they still? Yep.

R. Alan Brooks:

Yeah. Okay. So for people who are listening who aren't familiar with this, uh, every comic book in the eighties and nineties had a two-page advertising spread of Maja comics. Mm-hmm. and I, I was reading that in Atlanta. I knew what Maja comics was before I knew what Denver was.

John Jennings:

Right. ,

R. Alan Brooks:

When I moved here, it didn't occur to me that it was here. And I was just driving and I saw the sign and I was like, mahi Comics is

John Jennings:

Here. That's right. And I called

R. Alan Brooks:

My homeboy, I was like, yo, Maja comics is here. He's

John Jennings:

Like, hilarious. No, it yeah. Was so funny. Ok. I gotta fork that one. I gotta come back to that. So, um, but I was, I would get the catalogs and stuff from Bud Plant and Mile High Comics and stuff. Yeah. And that's how I was keeping on top of what was comic. I couldn't afford them, you know? Right. But I was like, what is Love and Rockets? What is what? Right. You know? But I didn't get a chance to see those until much later. Until your initial question, which I never asked would answer. Actually, I didn't get, my first comic book convention was way into my, I was like, it was Wizard World. It was, I think I was out of grad school, actually. Wow. Okay. Yeah. It was way late, you know, so it was like out in the Rosemont Horizon in Chi Chicago, well, Chicago Land actually in Chicago.

Right. But my, my, my comic story story is this, I was in Denver for a either design conference or, I mean, it was American Studies Association conference. And I was in the camp. Right. And I was, and I was talking to the cabbie and I was like, you know what, you guys have a really famous story here. It's called Mile High Comic. He's like, what? I was like, yeah, I, I grew up like reading about this place. I was like, this is where it is. And I was talking about teaching him about his own city.

R. Alan Brooks:

. Right. Yeah. He didn't know about the comic

John Jennings:

In the city. Exactly.

R. Alan Brooks:

Yeah. So, uh, the one homeboy that I had was in the comics when he came out to visit me the first time, I was like, yo, so you wanna see like Red Rocks, you know, like the Garden of the Gods. And he was like, I wanna see my high comics. I was like, the first thing he wanted to go to, you know?

John Jennings:

No, it's, I still to this day, like if I'm going to a, uh, um, you know, a new, a new city, I try to figure out comic shops are I still do that.

R. Alan Brooks:

Yeah. I was in New Orleans and, uh, I went into one, uh, that was called More Fun Comics, and I mm-hmm. I walked in, I was like, yo, did you name this after the old DC series? And they were like, yeah,

John Jennings:

R. Alan Brooks:

. Right. Nobody knows that.

John Jennings:

Kinda like, uh, um, the million year picnic in Boston, right? Huh? In Cambridge. We, they named it after the story. I think it's a Ray Bradberry story that was Oh, that's cool. It's black owned. It's a black owned, uh, story. And it's in Cambridge, it's called That Word. And it's downstairs. You have to walk down until it's, it's barely any room in it. But it's a great story. It's called The Million, the Million Year Picnic is the name

R. Alan Brooks:

Of it. Yeah. Yeah.

John Jennings:

Anyway,

R. Alan Brooks:

John Jennings:

You know, that's a good question. Um, I started making art as at a very young age, you know mm-hmm. really visual, visually oriented. Um, I was always attracted to symbols and colors and shapes from an early age, you know. Hmm. And I started making images pretty, pretty, pretty readily. Um, I remember the, my first, like, I remember it was like the back of my hand, so I remember I told you like, uh, my, um, my mom bought me Thor. Right? Yeah. So I think about three weeks after that, give or take, uh, she had a real, my mom had a pretty dope like, LP collection. Right.

R. Alan Brooks:

And, uh,

John Jennings:

Okay. So I actually remember like looking inside of one of her album covers, like one of the albums and seeing the clean inside of it, I said, wait a minute, there's white stuff in here. Like, this is like, it's like, it's like clean paper inside of the, okay. So I remember like tearing open one of the albums, you know, drawing inside of the album cover. I drew a, like, really badly rendered Thor, but it was, it was like the best oti Red . And she like, lost it, but she was like, oh, you're just trying to draw. So then she started buying me paper to drawing and stuff like that.

R. Alan Brooks:

Oh, that's cool. Yeah.

John Jennings:

Or like finding it at work or whatever. So,

R. Alan Brooks:

Um, so around around what age would that have been?

John Jennings:

Oh man. That had to be like, I don't know, like eight maybe.

R. Alan Brooks:

Okay.

John Jennings:

Seven, eight. I don't know. It's, it's kind, I'm trying to think about where I was living at the time. Right. But, um, but I, I took the art pretty soon, pretty easily, you know, I said I entered into, you know, art, like kids art competitions and Yeah. I, I remember like drawing stuff from my dentist, you know, I had drawing this Incredible Hulk for like, his wall stuff like that.

R. Alan Brooks:

Oh, that's cool.

John Jennings:

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I remember it was, it wasn't that bad actually. And I think about it, it was actually a pretty good rendering date of a Sal Esteem of Hulk, you know? Huh. And, um, I remember the first types of, I, I think the first thing I started doing was like storytelling. I really love stories of all kinds. And I remember the first, in first grade , I did like Bootleg Popeye cartoons.

R. Alan Brooks:

. Nice.

John Jennings:

Yep. I did like Bootleg Popeye stories. Right. Yeah. And, um, and you know, I started like a lot of people, I started doing like knockoff characters, you know, like, I had called the Panther , his name was Tony Smith, the Panther. And he was like, but he really like, you know, Tony Stark and what, and Tela, you know

R. Alan Brooks:

Right, right.

John Jennings:

This gold suit. But he had like a headband, like, like, like shachi, you know, . It was so, so ridiculous. And,

R. Alan Brooks:

Uh, yeah. So, uh, me and my homeboy, I mentioned earlier, like, uh, we met in the town to gift to class, so we would just see each other once a week. Yeah. And so e every week we would come with whatever our new superhero designs were. Oh, there we go. And, uh, and you know, they were always derivative, like you're talking about. Oh yeah. But there was a very distinct period when we started reading Fem Force, Uhhuh, . We were going through puberty. Like, uh, I, I still don't think I could show any of those designs that we did to, to my mother. Fem

John Jennings:

Force is pretty Yeah. And that's from what Pacific Comics.

R. Alan Brooks:

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

John Jennings:

Yes. Well, it's really crazy cuz you know, of late, I've been really interested in like, public domain characters. A lot of those characters are public domain characters.

R. Alan Brooks:

Oh yeah. Yeah. Cuz we're both in that, uh, group, that Facebook group. That's right,

John Jennings:

That's right. That's right. Yeah. I love that kinda stuff. But

R. Alan Brooks:

Yeah, that's, yeah. Cause you know, I wrote, uh, uh, butterfly, butterfly, butterfly. Yeah. Yeah. And, and you're working on something with Butterfly, right?

John Jennings:

I'm working on a butterfly. Well, I'm, I'm, I'm kinda, I'm publishing a Butterfly story. I came up with like, designs for, um, you know, uh, like an an eighties and nineties version of her, you know? Yeah. And, uh, pitched it to my imprint. And, um, yeah. So we're, we're working with a, a young lady outta Chicago. Cool. That's cool. And, uh, yeah, but it's update, it's very different, you know, that's what I like about the public domain stuff. You can actually take the, the, that one character and just run with it in different

R. Alan Brooks:

Directions. Right. And

John Jennings:

Then I just heard my friend Colleen, uh, what's Colleen's last name? I can't think, I can't remember what the last name is right now. She gonna murder me Anyway.

R. Alan Brooks:

,

John Jennings:

Um, Colleen is gonna do a, uh, um, another butterfly stuff for like

R. Alan Brooks:

A Italian. Oh, dope.

John Jennings:

Yeah. So, you know, I, I love the fact that you can just kinda like remix the characters and run with other things, you know?

R. Alan Brooks:

John Jennings:

It

R. Alan Brooks:

Was a cool story then. Oh, I appreciate it. Mm-hmm. then, uh, new Year's Eve, right before this year, the artist Frank was like, Hey, it's gonna be a backup and Savage Dragon. And I was like, for real? that thing I wrote six, seven years. That's how I get an image. Comics. All right, cool. You know,

John Jennings:

I, I bought that issue cause of your story.

R. Alan Brooks:

Oh, I appreciate that,

John Jennings:

Man. I don't follow, I don't follow Savage Dragon like that. I always like the character. I always like the, you know,

R. Alan Brooks:

I mean, I never read it to be honest with, you know, like strange,

John Jennings:

He uses a lot of public domain characters too. Like, he's actually used like, and a few other

R. Alan Brooks:

Over the main Yeah. It's, it's cool. Uh, now he and I are Facebook friends, and it's cool to see like, his approach to com. This is Eric Garon, the creator of Savage Dragon. But it's cool to see like, uh, what he has to say about com is his perspective and stuff like that. That's, that's usually pretty interesting to me.

John Jennings:

Definitely.

R. Alan Brooks:

So, okay. Uh, I, I'm interested in this journey from being somebody who draws on the inside of, uh, the album papers to becoming a person who you are now. Like, was it that, uh, you, you, we talked earlier about you going to school. It didn't sound like it was for art specifically. It was So can Oh, okay. So, yeah. Can you talk about like what your journey was and how you got

John Jennings:

Here? Yeah. Yeah. I actually, um, ended up going to, went to Jackson State for undergrad.

R. Alan Brooks:

Uh, okay.

John Jennings:

Class 89, no, 93. Yep. 89 93. Okay. And I studied commercial art, which is the great granddaddy of graphic design. Right, right. And out of outta school. And I, and actually while I was there, I did like, uh, I was a school. I worked for the school newspaper, the blue and white Flash. And I had my own little, like, cartoon strip and stuff. It's called Academia, you know. Nice. And, uh, you know, it, it was fun and people seem to like it. Um, but then we have a local paper called The Clarion Ledger. Lar Ledger, uh, is is a, um, is a Gannett paper. So you know, st Oh, some people that own. So my

R. Alan Brooks:

Dad was with Gannett. He, uh, worked, he was, uh, deputy managing editor for USA Today.

John Jennings:

Yeah. So went to the USA Today and yeah, the Detroit News and, uh, the big other big papers. So it's the big paper. It was the biggest paper. It's the biggest paper in Mississippi. Okay. And, uh, what's really crazy about it is that at the time, all of the graphic designers and graphic artists were all black men. Huh. For reason, you know? Yeah. It was like three or four black men that worked in the art department. Huh. And they did all the graphics work. They did design work, they did illustration work, and, and the art director was a black man, , you know, it was crazy. And so, um, it, it blew me away. And so, um, they actually came to visit. That's how I knew about it. They came to visit the blue and white flash. It was like a career day kind of thing.

Okay. And so I think after I showed 'em my work, they decided that they, they had done like internships before with like, news reporters and stuff. Right. But they had never done a, a art internship before. I needed an intern. And so internship, so they actually hired me as an intern. And it was a paid internship. It was the most money I ever made. I think I was making close to $800 a week. Nice. And for me, outta college being po I was like, oh my goodness, I'm, I'm rich. Right. Oh my God. It was kinda like, you know, but then, and, and, and I got a job with them right after, actually. And then, um, okay. But I didn't work there that long. Cause I, I was interested in grad school, and so, I don't know, I, I liked working there. I, it was good people, it was good pay for me at the time.

Um, but I was really interested in education and, uh, and, and just learning more, you know. Hmm. So I ended up getting into graduate school, um, for art education actually. Okay. North Illinois at, or vanish Champaign. And I did that. Uh, but while I was there, I took graphic design classes and I fell in love with graphic design. So I actually ended up getting into their MFA program after three tries. It was very tough. Uh, got to the MFA program and, uh, I was only one of, let's see, it was 88 people, uh, um, applied that year. Five of us got in and only three of us out of that class stuck in it. So it was, it was really stringent. Yeah. And, um, I ended up doing well there. And then I ended up, uh, there's a, there was a local, like, software company that was started by a, um, this genius level, like computer programmer guy, you know, cause mm-hmm. Time, you know, U of I was like a really big like, hub for computer programming, super computing stuff. Oh, okay. I mean, the first internet browser, uh, was created there. Mosaic was created there.

R. Alan Brooks:

Huh. I didn't know that.

John Jennings:

Yeah. And so, um, and of course Mosaic later becomes fire, uh, Firefox and, oh, no, no, not fire. Is it Firefox? ?

R. Alan Brooks:

I use Firefox.

John Jennings:

Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Those, those, those, yeah. So, and then now he's like multi-billionaire and philanthropist, you know, but he started grad student at, um, I forgot his name at, uh, U of I. Anyway, so, uh, I worked at Stephen Wolf's company, Wolf Research. Uh, okay. I was doing packaging design, so I was still like full-time grad student. Wow. But also had a full-time job, . And, um, it was good. And I was doing packaging design and stuff like that. And then what happened was I fell in love with teaching. Man. I really, really thought about teaching. And, uh, at the time I had gone through like a really big breakup and, uh, you know, with someone I thought was gonna be my wife, but wasn't. Right. And I needed a reset. And what happened Yeah. With my old, um, my mentor at Jackson State reached out and said, Hey, we got an opening for a graphic design professor. And I was like, oh, uh, okay. Well, I, I do the designs .

R. Alan Brooks:

Right, right.

John Jennings:

So, like, I applied for it. Got it. And, uh, taught there for four years. I built graph their graph design program pretty much from the bottom up, you know? Huh. Uh, designed the Jackson State University logo, stuff like that. I worked there. Wow. And I helped build, got, got NASA accreditation. Uh huh. Yeah. Redesigned their, uh, curriculum.

R. Alan Brooks:

. It was in there. All

John Jennings:

Right. Yeah. Yeah. I was looking for their eyeballs. And then, but I really don't segue into comics again until, like I go back to, cause I get hired away at like, my other alma mater, university of Illinois hires me

R. Alan Brooks:

Right

John Jennings:

To, to, to, to beef up their image making, uh, side of things. Right. Cause I'm doing like, a lot of energy making. And that's my, came back to commerce. Huh. And I had to be like the early two thousands. So what I did is I gave up, don't give up . I you, cause what happened was, like, I was looking at, I was decent artist, but I wasn't drawing like, you know, I didn't, I I really didn't see myself doing it, you know, for, for a living. And so what ended up happening?

R. Alan Brooks:

Yeah. Like that house style for

John Jennings:

Yeah. The house style. I wasn't style. I'm really, yeah. I'm really influenced by fine art. So my hand looks like, you know, uh, Franz Maery or like s you know Right. You know, Palmer, Hayden, you know what I'm saying? I had that kind of feel in my hand, you know, and it's some comic stuff too. But I really don't come back to comics until early two thousands. And, uh, I was really interested in like, web comics and like different formats of comics. Yeah. And so what happened was, is like I'm feeling around with, uh, you know, web comics and doing like, other types of formats and stuff. And I come across Lulu

R. Alan Brooks:

Hmm.

John Jennings:

The self-publishing, you know, uh Oh, yeah. Yeah. Putting on demand company. Right, right. And I was like, wait a minute, I'm trained as a book designer, so lemme get this straight so I can actually make a book and put it out myself. Sign me up. So I started doing independent publishing and that's when I met me and Duffy, who's also doing independent publishing. Yeah. We did this book called The Whole Consumer Culture. Back

R. Alan Brooks:

In, I, I had to point out that you both have iterate names. Like every good comic book hero. Yeah. That's, that seems like a

John Jennings:

Perfect match. That's right. We're perfect match. We actually call us a j J two D two

R. Alan Brooks:

Actually. Nice.

John Jennings:

Yeah. J two D two. And, um, so then what happened was, uh, we did the whole, we were making this book this crazy cultish like, you know, voodoo inspired critique of racism in America. Yeah. You know, off the chain. Crazy. And we actually got a publisher for it.

R. Alan Brooks:

Oh, nice.

John Jennings:

Yeah. This, our friend now friend Doug Eson, he's a photographer. And, uh, I met him because of a student of mine did some work for a friend of his or something like that. And he mentioned to me, and I ended up writing something for another book. And we just kept in touch and I was sharing images of the hole with him. He was like, you know what? Come to Chicago, let's have a meeting. I was like, ok. So me and Damien went up to Chicago and, uh, talked to him and his Spark Partners. And I said, okay, we're gonna do it. And we're like, do what ? And they were like, oh, we're gonna publish your book. And we're like, yeah. Are you serious? This crazy thing.

R. Alan Brooks:

Yeah. That's cool.

John Jennings:

Yeah. And that's how I started off in, like, that was my first major published work actually. Right. And, uh, after that, of course we did, um, we did some, we, we did some curatorial work. We did this show called Out Of Sequence, uh mm-hmm. Underrepresented Voices in American Comics. Both of us are comic scholars. And so we were like, well, if we can't work in comics, at least we can have be comics adjacent, you know? Right,

R. Alan Brooks:

Right.

John Jennings:

R. Alan Brooks:

Know. Okay.

John Jennings:

And then what happens is, um, you know, we started talking to this company called Mark Batty Publisher. And again, defunct, you know , right? Yeah. They just, you know, like front 40, they, they really had abi like a lot of ambition, but they were did these really beautiful niche books that people weren't buying gorgeous books. Oh. People were like, not buying 'em, you know? Huh. And so, but what, what they published our, that's the Black comic, the first black comics book.

R. Alan Brooks:

Okay. Yeah.

John Jennings:

And so that's, that's what really put us on the map. That's actually the book that got us to kindred deal,

R. Alan Brooks:

Huh?

John Jennings:

Yep.

R. Alan Brooks:

I got one of the Kickstarter editions of it. Yeah.

John Jennings:

That's the second. Yeah, that's the follow up. Yeah. The first one's outta print been outta of print for years, you know. Wow. Yeah. Cause the company went outta business . It was kinda interesting because, um, and I think this happened in, when I was still, when I was at Buffalo. Cause what happened was the company went out of business. Um, we had earned royalties. Right. But we'd pay us royalties cuz they not solve it enough. So they paid us in books.

R. Alan Brooks:

Huh.

John Jennings:

So they, so yeah. So they paid us in books. They gave us like a ton of books. And you know what else they did? Because they said, like, they said to us, like, if all the books sold as well as your books would, we would still be a business right now. Huh. So what they did was they, instead of liquidate the books, they actually sold, um, the books to all the contributors, which is like 50 people.

R. Alan Brooks:

Wow.

John Jennings:

At a severe discount. I'm talking like $2 a book.

R. Alan Brooks:

Huh?

John Jennings:

We're talking about a $45 book.

R. Alan Brooks:

Wow.

John Jennings:

So people were able to actually make a mint off those books we're talking about. So, so people loved that. They were like, wait a minute. So you, we can buy these books for $2 a piece and sell 'em for 40.

R. Alan Brooks:

Right.

John Jennings:

That's like for real publishing , you know? Yeah.

R. Alan Brooks:

Right, right.

John Jennings:

You know, so yeah. So that was really interesting. And then, you know, after the Kindred book though, um, uh, we managed to pull that out. People liked it, you know, uh, I did, I think I drew that in about eight months or so. Uh, that's, we'll get into the, the rigmarole around that. But, uh, the book was a hit, the book was a hit and, uh, yeah. Still sells well. Um,

R. Alan Brooks:

Good.

John Jennings:

R. Alan Brooks:

I love that man. It's really cool to hear all that. Yeah. I, I wanna say there was a period like, uh, I might have been 12. My dad was like, it's time for you to read. I told Davia Butler now. Mm-hmm. , you know, and he hit me with like a couple of the paperbacks.

John Jennings:

Oh yeah.

R. Alan Brooks:

Uh, I love, you know, I, I'm constantly talking with people about, particularly when it comes to like publishing or comics, figuring out like how to master p these fools. Right. Cuz and just like, do my thing. Right. Uh, in such a way that, cuz like if I were waiting on, you know, if I were waiting on people, I would still be selling insurance. Like, you know. Yeah. So figuring out how to make a living doing the thing you love. Yeah. Um, which I'm fortunately in that position, and just looking to like how to expand it. I love that all of this came from you doing something that was something you loved in the way that you loved mm-hmm. . Like, you, you didn't like take this project to Marvel or DC you know, like you just created the thing that loved and moved forward with it. Yep. And you've been able to reap some of these cool benefits. That's really cool to hear.

John Jennings:

No, no, seriously. And like, first of all, Marvel Ori would not have ever published this, the whole .

R. Alan Brooks:

Right, right.

John Jennings:

It is crazy. And, uh, a crazy book. Um, but, you know, people have written about it, people have done dissertations about it and stuff. Huh. Cause you know, it's well researched in it, but it's like, you know, but it's this crazy satire horror. It's very much for adults. It's not.

R. Alan Brooks:

Right. It's

John Jennings:

Very like NC 17, you know, it's pretty wild. Um, but it also is talking about black bodies and racism and voodoo and de deposition of African, uh, belief structure, stuff like that. Yeah. And, um, they wouldn't have published that , not like they take ideas anyway. I mean, they just publish stuff that they're doing.

R. Alan Brooks:

Yeah.

John Jennings:

But what's interesting is that after a while I became known as a, a scholar of race and comics, you know?

R. Alan Brooks:

Okay. And

John Jennings:

I became a pun identified. People knew that I was, uh, cur my curator and I was and knowledgeable to a certain degree.

R. Alan Brooks:

Right.

John Jennings:

These subject matters. And I actually ended up working, um, actually, uh, Marvel reached out to me, you know? Yeah. Yeah. I said, Hey, you know, we want you to write a piece for our site, uh, for this Marvel Marvel's Voices piece, you know? Huh. It was called Lift Every Voice.

R. Alan Brooks:

Right.

John Jennings:

The short piece about diversity, the importance of diversity in comics, and how Marvel has always been thinking about diversity, you know, writ large.

R. Alan Brooks:

Yeah.

John Jennings:

And, uh, that segued into like, Hey, he did a great job on that. Let's, they hired me to write the introduction to the reissue of, uh, God Loves Man Kills by,

R. Alan Brooks:

Uh,

John Jennings:

Okay. Chris Claron. Right.

R. Alan Brooks:

Nice. And that's, that's actually, I didn't know that. That's really

John Jennings:

R. Alan Brooks:

Okay.

John Jennings:

Yep. It's called My Black. Me and my friend Angelique Roche, who helps run the Marvel's

R. Alan Brooks:

Voices. I'm familiar with her work. Yeah,

John Jennings:

Yeah, yeah. So we were working on a book together. We've been working for two years on it.

R. Alan Brooks:

And, uh,

John Jennings:

Yeah, we almost done. We're close, you know, uh, she's been in insanely, I mean, I can't, I can't think of a better partner. So basically what happens is I write badly and then she makes me better and more worthy to be published . Cause what happened over the Pandemic is that, you know, uh, we had a lot of losses. My sister passed, thank you. My son was, uh, diagnosed with autism at two. And so that was a huge shift. We moved actually to another place.

R. Alan Brooks:

Okay. We

John Jennings:

Moved. There's been a lot of distractions and stuff. And, uh Right. Also too, the thing is, is that when you start getting into the nitty gritty of a book like that Yeah. You realize like all the trips and, and pitfalls and tributaries that you go down, we're talking about 80 years of continuity.

R. Alan Brooks:

Right.

John Jennings:

With a company that really at, at first was not even thinking about archiving anything .

R. Alan Brooks:

Right. Right.

John Jennings:

R. Alan Brooks:

Right. Yeah. Yeah. Pseudonyms. Right.

John Jennings:

PSMs and stuff. They

R. Alan Brooks:

Were like ashamed of writing in comics. Right.

John Jennings:

Yeah. And then you also had like, um, them starting issues like later, like, oh, it's not issue one, it's issue eight. Like, wait, no, what's the rest of the, you know, this.

R. Alan Brooks:

Right, right,

John Jennings:

R. Alan Brooks:

Hmm.

John Jennings:

I, I, I want him to be alive. I want him, I want him to, I think he'll be more helpful to us if he were a superhero. So I pitched De Marvel cause I had their ear cause of the other book, and they were like, right, tell us more. And I was like, well, I would do this thing, I would do this, this, this, and this. And then they were like, tell us more. And I was like, okay, here's 40 page, you know, pitch

R. Alan Brooks:

Nice. Way too

John Jennings:

Much, by the way,

R. Alan Brooks:

, they asked more.

John Jennings:

Yeah, they did. So I went in and they were like, alright, five issues. And I was like, excuse me, five. What? Wait, what? Like, here's five issues. Tell us about your new black superhero. Let's do it. And I was like, excuse me. What? So yeah, so that's, so now I've been writing for Marvel for, and I created a new black superhero based off of a Stanley character.

R. Alan Brooks:

I love that man. With

John Jennings:

Cosmic powers. No.

R. Alan Brooks:

Like, right, right. Uh, so people can pick this up too. You mean it's Silver Surfer ghost, like That's correct. Or, yeah. And, uh,

John Jennings:

The

R. Alan Brooks:

Trade, what

John Jennings:

Is the trade comes out in September.

R. Alan Brooks:

Okay. Yeah.

John Jennings:

Dope. There's five issues. And, uh, the issue four drops end of the month, and then issue five in June in like late June.

R. Alan Brooks:

So has it been significantly different, uh, from the other work you've been doing to, to do like a, like a monthly Marvel comic? Like, all right. . Yeah. How so?

John Jennings:

Well, I mean, of course the deadlines are are very Right. Right. And the process that they have is very, very, I mean, it's, it's, it's, um, they have it down to a science

R. Alan Brooks:

Uhhuh

John Jennings:

. It's, it's, um, it's immediate. Like, so for instance, like, you know, you have, you know, it depends on the team. The team that they pick. They, they move differently. Uh, our artist is Valentine Deandro, uh mm-hmm. , it was, uh, you know, Trinidad and, uh, artist out of, uh,

R. Alan Brooks:

Okay.

John Jennings:

Out of, uh, Toronto. And you, our cover artist is a black man as well, tar Clark. And, uh, yeah, it's been really an interesting con conversation between the three of us working on his character. So, um, you know, first you get the first draft and Right, right. Then they get notes on that, and then you do a dialogue pass, which means like, you go back and you double check to make sure that, you know, they're saying what they need to be saying. Uh, they get that on top of the inks, the letters, you know, so you, so you see the lettered proof. Yeah. Right. And then you get the colors in Right. And you have to give notes on the colors, and then you final pass on the dialogue with everything. Then it goes to press. And that happens, huh. Every month . So, and it's very fast. It happens very fast. Yeah.

R. Alan Brooks:

NCA Denver at the holiday theater is a year round performance and event space that is an extension of the Museum of Contemporary Art Denver. The holiday is home to a spectrum of creative expression, including original productions, live music, film screenings, artist talks, and serial programming like Mixed Taste and Cinema Azteca, as well as performances and events presented by other cultural organizations. The theaters also available for private rentals. Visit NCAA denver.org/holiday theater to learn more.

Now, I, I want to ask, like, so, uh, I hosted a previous comic podcast where I talked to just different people who were in the geek world, and I, I talked to like, um, Alan Davis and I talked to, um, Azzarello, Brian Azzarello mm-hmm. , and I was talking with each of them about this idea about, um, whether art is for sort of making people think differently about their lives or whether it's for escapism. And, uh, I think both are equally valid. Alan Davis was more on the, like, it lets me escape the world. Ergo was more on the, like, I can change people's lives if I can make them think differently, you know? Yeah. And I, I wonder where you are, like when you're creating, um, what do you have in mind? What effect do you want it to have on people, the world, et cetera? I

John Jennings:

Am, I'm very much in Zuella's camp, you know? Yeah. And I think it's because I'm really influenced by like, not pop culture, you know, but, but it's influenced by black arts movements, you know? Yeah. So I'm talking about like, you know, the Harlem Renaissance and the, and the

R. Alan Brooks:

Right

John Jennings:

Black arts movement, ara what you wanna call a black spec of arts movement, right? Mm-hmm. where like, black people in our country have always, uh, used art to fight against oppression, you know? Right. Whether it's dance, poetry, what have you, you know, uh, it seems ingrained in us and also too work like, you know, Emory Douglas, you know? Yeah. And if you look at like, uh, the different theoretical framings from, from black scholars around black art, a lot of it is about like, use art to fight, right? Mm-hmm. . So you look at like, the criteria of negro art by Du Bois. He's like, he doesn't even care about work that isn't propaganda . He's like, right, as long as we not free, we don't have to use art to tell, to tell you what we need. Right. Um, but then another one is, uh, bell hooks, uh, black aesthetic, strange and oppositional, you know? Mm-hmm. , make the artwork strange and oppositional push back against the norm. Right. Fight from the margins. That's her, that's back hooks. Right. Um, then you also have like, you know, what was it, the crisis of Negro artists on the No. In the racial mountain. You know, that piece by, um, no, Langston Hughes.

R. Alan Brooks:

Okay.

John Jennings:

Yeah. So, so, so I'm looking at these forefathers. Oh. And, uh, you know, Emory Douglas also and four mothers, Emory Douglas has a, has a 10 point, you know, manifesto by art, you know, make it clear, make it, you know, make it provocative, make it easy to understand. So when I look at comics, I love them, but they also speak very symbolically. You can actually talk about a lot of different, you know, types of political issues and issues that are affecting our people. Right. Readily. So even with something like Ghost Light, one of the most radical things I could have done is I gave that brother a family.

R. Alan Brooks:

Right.

John Jennings:

You know? Cause in the first, the first, when you see ghosts like me or Al Harper, um, he's just in the woods. He's created two as a plott point for a silver servant. Right. But I give him a backstory. I give him emotions, I give him affect, I give him like a complexity, you know? Mm-hmm. . And, uh, to me that was a blessing. I'll, I'll, I'll always be grateful to Marvel for letting me do that, because that is such a radical thing to see, you know, even, even in this day and age where you get like, complexity, you know, we are not a monolith, you know, these types of Right. That's something I think is really important. So yes, I'm very much in the camp, like art can change people's minds, you know, and they do it every day. You know, we just call it commercial art. Like you look at like advertisers and stuff. They're using art to sell us things all the time.

R. Alan Brooks:

Right.

John Jennings:

So how, why can't we sell, like, Hey, let's talk about climate change, or Hey, why don't we, why don't we end abusive, uh, abusive against like elderly and women and children. Right. Right. Why don't we think more equit equitably about like, you know, the bottom line about prison industrial complex? Why can't we talk about these things with our art? You know?

R. Alan Brooks:

I love that man. You know, so for me, uh, as a child of the Twilight Zone and Civil rights Yep. You know, ,

Uh, like those things coming together, it is always, it's always on my mind, you know, uh, sort of Rod Serling and Melvin Van Peebles, you know, like kind of top influences for me. And that it, it does come out, you know, and it's interesting how, um, when you have those people who, who something that you create resonates in a powerful way mm-hmm. , like, you can, you can see the way that it's changed their lives. You can feel Yes. Like, and, and they're like happy. Like, it's just a really interesting experience to have somebody who is significantly impacted by characters I made up on my couch. Do you know what I'm saying?

John Jennings:

I know, right? It's like, yeah. You just kinda doodling and Yeah. Connect with it. You know, that's, that is a, I'll never get over that. You're absolutely right. Like, hey, I'm just, I wrote this story about this character, like, like even with your butterfly story, right? So taking that character from, you know, the public domain Yeah. Because of the mishap. Cause really what it was, they, they didn't put the copyright symbol on it properly. Yep. A mishap, right, right. Where you can actually now empower others and yourself with this character. Right. So it's so amazing to me. Um, the other thing too is like, you know, I do a lot of work with, um, community centers to create black comic book festivals, right? Mm-hmm. So like, I co-founded the, um, the Black Comic book festival in Harlem, one of the co-founded Black, and it's the largest black comic book festival in the country, probably in the world, even maybe as far as I can tell. Okay. Um, pre covid, we talking 12, 15,000 people,

R. Alan Brooks:

Huh.

John Jennings:

To a free two day event at the Shaumburg Center for Research and Black culture

R. Alan Brooks:

Yeah.

John Jennings:

On Lennox Avenue, also known as Malcolm X Boulevard. Right? Right. Uh, across from the Harlem Hospital down the street around the corner from Apollo. Right. The red roots across the street, the har you know, it's just black lickety black, right? Yeah. Right. This is the repository of the Harlem Renaissance man. Like Nixon Hughes's ashes are buried in the foundation, like literally in a Wow. Yeah.

R. Alan Brooks:

I

John Jennings:

Didn't know that. Yeah. So this is, this is where like Harry Belafonte and like Ozzy Davis and Ruby D perform in the basement, man. Huh? Yeah. This, so this is like a piece of history, and they said, Hey, let's do a black comic festival. Whew,

R. Alan Brooks:

Man. That's so

John Jennings:

Cool. There's nothing like it. There's nothing like kids walking into that space and seeing themselves reflected back at them at themselves, and then like, everybody there is making something that's for them.

R. Alan Brooks:

Right.

John Jennings:

You know, and, and for that, for two days, we are the default. Huh. You know, it's nothing like it . So I

R. Alan Brooks:

Love that man. You know, I gotta say innocent brother. It's, it is easy to talk to you and, uh, and I'm enjoying it. But I guess we're gonna head towards wrapping up. There's three things. One I want to ask, uh, in your process. Yeah. Uh, when you feel fear, first of all, what, what, how does it manifest? And then secondly, how do you get through it?

John Jennings:

Okay. Um, so it's, it's interesting because I'm a horror creator too, so I, I, yeah. Fear is my medium to a certain degree. Huh. Um, you know, I'm, I'm, I'm actually the first African American man to win the Brown Stoker Award.

R. Alan Brooks:

Huh.

John Jennings:

And people don't realize that. Uh, but yeah, I was the first, uh, Linda Addison, you know, who's a horror poet, she's written one a bunch. It's a black woman. She's the first black person.

R. Alan Brooks:

Okay.

John Jennings:

First black man to win one. And, uh, wow. It is for Kendrick. And so I've always been a big horror fan. So this notion of fear, uh, is something that I'm really, really think about a lot, because a lot of times I'm trying to scare you with my stories . Right. But for a good reason, I'm actually trying to use them to use the fear or the anxiety that I have. It's, it's fuel for the work, you know? Mm-hmm. . Yeah. So a lot of times I'm making like Octavia Butler, like, I'm really influenced by what she wanted to do, like with, with Parable as Sword. Like she wanted to create warnings about the future mm-hmm. , and I wanna say like that fear has become more intense after becoming a father, you know? Ah, the Afro future has shifted a greatly, you know, when I look at, like, the world that Jackson, by the way, my son's name is Jackson Kirby, by the way.

R. Alan Brooks:

Oh, wow. Okay.

John Jennings:

Um,

R. Alan Brooks:

You, you're on that, uh, that Nick Cage level. Yes. You know, he named his son Calello.

John Jennings:

Oh, I didn't realize that. That's Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. On that. Yep. That's my mom. I mean, my mom, that's , my wife, my wife, uh, um, named him that. Uh, and, uh, yeah, it's kinda, oh, that's because, um, we spell it j j xo n and so my, okay. My grandfather, uh, couldn't read or write, and he signed his name X, so we kind went after my grandfather on the slide too, so

R. Alan Brooks:

That's dope. Thanks. Uh, okay. It reminds me of a joke from Cheers that I just gotta throw out. Okay. Cause I just listened to a podcast from Cheers. Okay. Somebody asked, uh, cliff Klavin, the mailman character. They were like, uh, what is a Freudian slip? And he says, it's when you say, when you mean to say one thing and you accidentally say a mother

John Jennings:

, that's good.

R. Alan Brooks:

. Right, right. Yeah. That's really

John Jennings:

So beautifully nerdy. So anyway, so, so fear is part of my process

R. Alan Brooks:

Because Yeah.

John Jennings:

And I don't shy away from it. I'm used to dealing with my, my anxieties and I use art to deal with them. Um hmm. So climate change has become something I'm very, very conscious about. So I created an entire storytelling space when I, I was a Harvard fellow and I did a, I was work with Skip Gates and them, and I did like

R. Alan Brooks:

A, okay,

John Jennings:

It's called the Cyber Trap. It's like a storytelling space and set in the future where like climate change devastates, like the southeast, you know, and, uh, Florida is totally submerged under water. Everybody moves into the inland, you know, they have these big mega cities, stuff like that. Yeah. So, um, I was kind of using, uh, climate data and the fear of like, what could happen if we don't pay attention to it, to actually tell stories and actually, but as warnings, you know? Okay. So, yeah. So I'm, I'm, I like the fears that I have go into the work because I want deal with the issues, you know? Mm-hmm. .

R. Alan Brooks:

Yeah. That's dope. You do a lot of interesting stuff. I feel ob obviously, we just only scratched the surface, but it's really cool. I, I encourage anyone who's listening or watching to, to look more into the work you've done. Thank you. All right. My two final questions are, uh, first, do you have any, like, what do you have going on next? Uh, where can people find your stuff? How can they engage with it? That kind of thing.

John Jennings:

Okay. Um, so a good place to start is my website, which is, uh, John Jennings Studio, all one word.com. John Jennings studio.com. All right. So currently, uh, I'm finishing up the five issue mini series, still Circle Coast Light, which I said, introduces a brand new black superhero to the Marvel universe and his family.

R. Alan Brooks:

Exciting. That

John Jennings:

Will be collected September 26th, I think, is when it comes together. Um, I just, I just, uh, signed a contract with Vault Comic to do a new creator own piece.

R. Alan Brooks:

Congrats.

John Jennings:

Uh, thanks. Um, let's see.

R. Alan Brooks:

Uh, are you gonna, uh, write and draw or are you gonna have somebody else

John Jennings:

New writing? Yeah, I'm just gonna write. Okay. I found, like, when I have a kid, like drawing with the kid has been difficult. Like, for instance, uh, another project I'm working on is Parable of Talents, which is a 208 page book.

R. Alan Brooks:

Right.

John Jennings:

Which is way overdue and, uh, way, way overdue. Um, me and my friend David Brand, we're gonna tackle the art. I'm gonna do finishes, he's gonna do breakdowns, so Okay. Gimme a hand to catch up with that

R. Alan Brooks:

Still. Yeah. I pretty much only, uh, draw when it's an opportunity that I can't afford to have an artist mess up my deadline. Yeah, that's what I'm saying. So like, the couple museum pieces I've done, it's only cuz Yeah. Cuz it's a lot of work. I respect com people who consistently draw good comics and, and hit their deadlines. Obviously how they

John Jennings:

Do it, it's, it's a brilliant thing. People that route Guillory, you know, or like Right. Give it.

R. Alan Brooks:

Um, I got mistaken for him at a convention once. You know what, speaking of people. Yeah.

John Jennings:

Yep. I could see that. I could see it. .

R. Alan Brooks:

Yep. That's so funny.

John Jennings:

R. Alan Brooks:

So Nice.

John Jennings:

And the last thing is a second volume of box of bones. There's other stuff, but I just wanna, you know, those are some of the bigger things that are immediate right now, so,

R. Alan Brooks:

Yeah. Oh. Oh, that sounds cool. Oh,

John Jennings:

No. One more. I thought about this. I, I, I co-edited a collection of Marvel comics for kids called Marvel Super Stories.

R. Alan Brooks:

Ah, that

John Jennings:

Was fun. 15 artists, one of was me, I did a daredevil story for kids and

R. Alan Brooks:

Then, ah, and Daredevil was your favorite hero. We established that at the

John Jennings:

Beginning, chance to do a story, but for kids it's so awesome. So, yep.

R. Alan Brooks:

Congrats man. Congrats on all the stuff you're doing, man. Uh, alright. Well then, uh, the last thing I wanna ask is, uh, what's inspiring you these days? Like, what are you into, like, you know, is it music, is it comics? Like is there a specific thing that's inspiring you creatively?

John Jennings:

So, um, I'm always listening to music. I love music. Um, so yeah, music is always on. Oh, I'm thinking about it. Uh, I'm really inspired by, uh, alternative histories right now, like speculative histories. Huh. Like thinking about like, what could have happened and, you know, right. Most fiction stories, like how did we actually deal with things that could have happened and, and spaces that might have been, you know. Hmm. Um, I was part of a, a a co of a, a committee for Hannah Beaker's, uh, uh, Afrofuturist period, Rome, and she has a ette right now. Hannah Beaker. Um, for those of y don't know, she was, she was the Oscar went in, uh, set designer for Black Panther World. Wakanda, I mean Wakanda forever. And, um, it's an alternative history room. So I became like really fascinated by the notion of the world, what types of things. Well researched, alternative histories has been really a thing. And like yourself, I'm really in, I'm really like public domain characters too. Yeah. Because it's sort of a reclamation to me of a background history. And there's also a critique. Like I, I make a lot of my characters of color. Well, I change gender or, you know, stuff like that. Because traditionally, as you know, like the superhero genre has been really, really about straight men. Straight men and power fantasies. Right. Yeah. You were not ever meant

R. Alan Brooks:

To be great white men specifically.

John Jennings:

Exactly. Yep. Yeah. So, um, I like the idea of twisting those because that actually critiques the work, you know, and, uh, I'm really into that and, um, I don't know. So those, those are some of my little quirky things. But, uh, I'm really inspired by, you know, meta narratives and, and looking at like, you know, other histories and things, you know.

R. Alan Brooks:

Hmm. Brother John Jens, I appreciate you taking the time to talk to me, especially given all the things that you got going on. Do you know what I'm saying?

John Jennings:

So busy .

R. Alan Brooks:

Yeah. I appreciate you making it happen.

John Jennings:

No, no, it's my pleasure.

R. Alan Brooks: