This podcast is a home for the creative pioneer, the friendly problem child.

Like Dashal Beevers.

Dash left school at 13. Reading and writing not his friends.

Constraint is the mother of all invention, said nobody ever, but maybe should have.

Needing to create his own work and opportunity, Dash's work journey oozes creativity and entrepreneurial wizardry (and chips and dips). As yours can too (maybe less the chips and dips).

In this episode (the first of two), we talk Dash's personal journey and how this shapes who we are and the work we do. This is true for you too: the work you do is a product of who you are.

Links

• Find a local BeSaucy stockist
• Buy BeSaucy online

Welcome to Peripheral Thinking, a series of conversations with entrepreneurs,

advisors, activists and academics intend to inspire and challenge you with

ideas from the margins, the periphery.

Why?

Because that's where the ideas which we'll shape tomorrow are hiding today.

On those margins in the periphery.

Uh, this week I spoke to Dash beavers.

Dash is an entrepreneur, a creator of multiple businesses and projects,

hugely creative and inspiring man.

Uh, runs a business, current business that he runs with his brother and

sister, uh, which is a, a vegan sources called Be Saucy, available

on all good retailers near you.

Anyway, the journey, like all our journeys is not straight, It's

not linear, it bounces around.

And in Dash's case actually started in some respects when he left school

unable to read at the age of 13.

This compelled him into a journey of unconventional work, the

best kind of work we might say.

Uh, I really enjoyed talking to Dash.

Uh, his insight, his experience is hugely kind of valuable to hear.

I hope you enjoy this conversation as much.

I did having it.

Now we were just having a little conversation actually, uh, about

actually how sort of difficult actually doing these things being, I know like

often when I give talks in public and actually, although I've got much more

used to doing this over the time, it's funny how we just come to a lot

of these things with, with nerves.

And I think that is kind of true for lots of people.

And you were saying that you find, you find these things challenging.

Is that right?

Yeah, absolutely.

I think like you said, you know, public speaking for many people, uh, is one of

those fear points, you know, and I think.

You know, it can stem from many different things.

Um, but yeah, I think not, not to kind of judge me against others, but

I definitely am one of those that have quite a deep rooted fear that when these,

uh, these kind of opportunities come up, I will tend to run away from them.

Will you tend to avoid doing it or will you just reluctantly do it?

Well, I mean, you're reluctantly doing this, but is that, is

that an exception to the rule?

Uh, this is actually, yeah, I think I I've run away from the majority of

them and, and I do tend to regret it, you know, because it's, you know, a,

just a good experience, it's, it is a good way of kind of communicating about

what I'm up to and what I'm doing.

And, and so it's, it's something that I definitely would like to do more.

And I think with what you are doing and the subject matter, it

was of real personal interest.

So it's kind of pushed me to be here today.

Great.

Well, thank you very much.

I really appreciate it cuz you and I, we spoke uh, a few weeks ago

and I think your story is a really, really important story actually.

Uh, and I think lots of people would be really inspired by,

uh, the journey you've gone on.

So I may, maybe in the first instance, it's kind of worthwhile just talking

a little bit about what the, what makes you kind of anxious about this?

Cuz there's some, there's some good source material there isn't

Yeah.

I mean, I guess, you know, my, my kind of journey to kind of get to

where I am, my, my life experiences.

Maybe not being the kind of most traditional or, or kind of,

yeah, I guess normal if, if there is such a word for, for life.

Um, and it kind of started out with me, uh, being born in Holland, had hippie

parents born in a squat out there and then left there shortly after, so

within a couple of years of being there.

And I ended up living.

I think four different countries, uh, before I actually settled in the UK.

And I think, yeah, that, that has kind of added to my life experience and

given me a lot of things that perhaps others wouldn't have been through.

Uh, but it also kind of created its challenges.

And, you know, when we did settle in the UK, it was, you know, so my

sister and I could go to school and yeah, that, that experience for me

as well was, was truly challenging.

I didn't find out until a few years after schooling that I'm quite severely

dyslexic and it was kind of at that time when it wasn't really recognized.

So the way that I was being dealt with and the classes I was being put into

with other children, with learning difficulties, but not on the same,

uh, level or, or experience just meant that I wasn't really learning.

And.

I actually ended up leaving school at 13, still not being able to read or

write properly, and really kind of having had that schooling those years, just

being told that I would never be able to do anything and that I was stupid.

And so, you know, the insecurities kind of, a lot of it stems from that

experience, really, um, being able to kind of speak up and speak out

and feel that my self belief and self worth is, is an, an education is, is

good enough to be able to, um, you know, communicate that to others.

I, I tend to have that worry and fear that it isn't, and that I'm not,

What age were you that you settled in the UK then with your

sister when you started school?

How old were you then?

uh, I was seven.

Did you say there are four countries you'd been in before you were seven?

Yeah, so, uh, my mom used to make theaters costumes for, uh, theaters,

um, that would travel on the road and we ended up going on the road

from a, I think the age of two.

So I ended up living in Spain, uh, then moved on to Portugal.

So my mom would kind of work with these theater companies and they would

move on and then we would stay there.

So we ended up spending nine months living under a, a sheet of tarpaulin,

on a beach, in, in, in Portugal, and then moved on to Ireland.

Um, and then to the UK,

do you have much recollection of that time?

I mean, to be honest with you, my kind of memories are more, I guess,

an overrid overriding feeling.

You know, I don't necessarily remember my day to day experience, but, you know,

there's definitely, uh, just memories, you know, fond memories of being with

my sister and lighting fires and getting a ride on a donkey on a regular basis

and washing our clothes and these wash houses with all these Portuguese

women and, you know, little memories.

Um, but yeah, the, the, the kind of general feeling was that it was an

interesting experience, but I also was aware that, you know, my sister

was my best friend because we were always together and meeting new kids.

I didn't necessarily find easy.

And especially when I started going to school, I found that quite alien being

in a room with many other children and, and I, you know, some of my challenges

and difficulties started quite early on.

I, I, I really struggled to want to go to school.

I, I kind of battled not to go.

And I think part of being traveling alone with, with just the three of us, my mom

and my sister and myself, Meant that yeah.

Interacting with others was not something I was kind of, uh, used to.

But I guess presumably you were used to interacting with lots of

different people of different ages?

Absolutely.

And I, you know, I think, you know, that's kind of really been a kind of anchor point

for me throughout my life of being able to appreciate other people's stories, other

people's experiences from all age groups.

Um, I did find myself communicating with adults quite a lot when I was younger

because I was surrounded by them.

And I actually found it easier to do that sometimes than children of my own age.

And yeah, a lot of my life experience has been really based

around the people that I've met and the friendships and the contacts.

And, you know, I've, I've kind of lived my life through that really, you know, that

that's kind of with my, the, the kind of insecurities that I've I've had and still

battle with now, you know, to find work and jobs and to do things I've always

done it through the people I know, rather than the traditional way of applying for

something online or filling out a form.

And so, you know, that kind of childhood experience has, has played a huge

role in me being able to do that.

But at the same time, that childhood experience has also led me to be

in a slightly difficult position of, um, you know, not finishing my

schooling and, and perhaps kind of having the insecurities that haven't,

you know, that haven't enabled me to do things in a more traditional way.

Or haven't limited you to doing things in a more

Yes.

Yeah, no, absolutely.

You know, It's.

Yeah, it's a, it's a great story.

And I think in, in recent years, I've kind of, you know, the, the love I have of my

experience is also the, the challenge.

And I think, you know, I've been kind of, you know, addressing it just in

a, in a positive way, but just to kind of understand where some of this

stuff comes from so I can deal with it and, and help myself move forward.

Because, you know, in the past, um, you know, opportunities, I've

definitely pushed away because of fear.

And, and that's something that over the last several years I've really

worked on, uh, making sure I embrace the opportunities that, that, you know,

that fear would normally stop me doing,

And they, they, they would be like opportunities maybe to do things

like this, or are there other kinds of opportunities you think

you've, you've not stepped into.

Um, I guess, many opportunities really.

I mean, you can, you can kind, if you want to go to like relationships, you

know, not, not feeling confident enough to approach someone or communicate.

Um, work opportunities that I kind of felt like I wouldn't be

able, wouldn't be good enough.

I didn't have a skill set.

I didn't have what they would need from me.

Um, and then yeah, opportunities to, to kind of speak and to communicate

about, like I said, my, my work or my experience, all of these things, fear

has kind of stopped me in the past.

Um, and yeah, I, I kind of, at that point in life where I've done a lot of work,

I've, I've read a lot of books, done seminars and, and I, I want to, you know,

get to the kind of latter years of my life, knowing that I've given it my all

and, and I've really got the most out of

So you had been on the road then you're age seven, you come sort of land in.

I think you told me for, so you're in Devon in the south of the UK, that that

was the initial landing point, right?

And so you go from this sort of traveling on the road lifestyle, very close with

your sister to, uh, being in school in Devon, uh, and everything that, that

Yeah.

Yeah.

So, you know, like I said, from the offset schooling was, was a challenge for me.

And, you know, then through learning about one, not, not even at that time, but.

Afterwards, knowing that dyslexia was a big part of why

I found school challenging.

I ended up at, uh, four schools within five years.

Um, and you know, I went from a, a Rudolph Steiner school, which, you

know, in some ways would, was very good for me and they kind of catered to,

uh, my needs, but I was still, that was my first schooling experience.

So I just found that challenging.

Uh, then to kind of primary school.

And then at the age of nine, my, my sister who was 11 at the time, went

to live with my father in Holland.

Uh, she kind of was of, of that age, where she wanted to get to know our dad, having

parents separated when we were young.

And actually my relationship with my sister was probably the strongest

bond that I had because of our, you know, traveling together.

And when she left, I was kind of heartbroken and, and didn't

really feel like I could function.

So.

I, I, you know, at the age of nine said to my, my mom, my poor mom at the time that,

you know, I, I need to be with my sister, and it wasn't really even about being with

my father or getting to know my father.

I just felt like I couldn't live without my sister.

So yeah.

I ended up getting on a plane and, and going to, uh, to Holland back

to Amsterdam where I was born.

And I think I arrived on the Saturday and on the Monday morning I was going

to a Dutch school and having to learn how to speak, read, and write in

Dutch when I actually, you know, still couldn't do it at all in English.

Uh, so that was quite an interesting year, you know, fun in, in a lot

of ways being foreign, there's a bit of excitement around you and I

made lots of good friends, actually.

That was probably my best experience of connecting with people.

And then after one year back to the UK into a primary school, having to

try and then, you know, learn again how to read and write in English,

and kind of mixing that, that very basic Dutch in English together.

And then a few months later in secondary school, where, you know, from being in

a, a classroom with only a, a few other children to then being in a school of a

couple of thousand people, you quickly realize that your position, you know,

within the educational program is, you know, mine was very low and the attention

to kind of support me wasn't really there.

So I, I kind of quickly realized that I, I just wasn't gonna gain anything from

the years, to kind of finish school.

And so I had the conversation again, my poor mom, but a difficult conversation

with my mom just saying, you know, I'd be better off getting a job and

having work experience for the next three years, uh, then I will spending

the next three years at school.

And so, yeah, it, it wasn't easy, but I think my mom understood and,

and kind of, you know, a agreed that that would be the right option.

We didn't really know where that would lead me, but staying where I was.

And in that system also, wasn't gonna get me anywhere either.

So yeah, we kind of, you know, with her blessing, took that step and, and it

was kind of under the condition that I would actually go back to Holland, uh,

to live with my father and work with him because that was the kind of only job

that I guess I could get at the age of 13.

My father, you know, is actually a bit of a genius, which, you know, I wish

a bit more of that rubbed off on me.

Um, but he works with, uh, computers, still does, always did.

And I was quite fascinated about kind of computers and, and with the kind

of writing and reading, I guess my interest in what the capabilities

were of the software and things that you could do with the computer

made me want to read and, and learn.

And then also the, the actual tools of writing and having a spell check, and

it, it kind of really opened up the opportunity for me to at least not be

afraid to try, and to kind of learn.

So yeah, moving to, to Holland and to live with my father again was,

was kind of, you know, a, a big move, but it, it really, I think was, was

the right one for me at the time.

And you know, it wasn't an easy road from there.

Um, however, you know, it did give me a bit of confidence self-belief

that I could do something.

Interesting cuz you made reference, I'm not sure.

Certainly when we were talking earlier about a kind of reluctance to speak up,

but actually in a way you've just kind about articulated these two really pivotal

points where you really did speak up.

So, you know, age nine speaking up, cuz you want to go with the

sister age 13 speaking up because you know, a recognition, a feeling

or whatever it is that this track is not gonna be right for me.

Yeah, you are I've, I've never thought of it in that way.

I mean, I think when it comes to things that mean a lot to me, you know, and

when it comes to emotions and feelings and I, I, I definitely am prepared to

speak up in those moments because it's my life, you know, or it's someone else's

life, or, you know, I think there are times when the, the, the kind of fear

is completely overridden by the fact that, you know, something has to change,

you know, There are those moments, but they're not necessarily handpicked,

they're not times when you plan it or think about it or asked to do it.

It's at a point when you kind of just need to

So you find yourself in Amsterdam, uh, with the only job that's available

to a 13 year old looking for work.

Uh, it not being Victorian Britain anymore.

You couldn't get up at chimney.

Um, so you were, you were discovering new language via

computer working with your dad.

Yeah.

So that, that was, yeah.

I mean, new language in, in every way, learning kind of English, also

learning a bit of Dutch and then learning a bit of coding as well,

a bit of, uh, HTML programming, uh, which is what everyone used in those

early days of creating websites.

So, yeah, that that was, uh, a big kind of jump for me.

But again, like I said, the kind of interest and the passion there at the

time, my father was creating a virtual world, which hadn't been heard of at

that time and involved me in areas of my interest, so around music, and I

just kind of really, you know, was, was very dedicated and prepared to kind

of get up at seven in the morning, go to work, not get home till six, and,

and, and actually it, it really, yeah, it was interesting and engaging and

someone was there that was prepared to gimme the time when I needed it

that enabled me to kind of carry on.

I think in my schooling time that that kind of reciprocal

appreciation or respect or support wasn't necessarily there for me.

And, and I think that that kind of was a struggle for me

then to kind of really learn.

Whereas obviously with my father, you know, he wanted the best.

For me and out of me and gave me that time.

So, yeah, but it, it was, it was interesting, you know, his job was well,

he had his own businesses and working within computers, so I did have a few

different roles and I started to, to learn how to use Photoshop and designed an album

cover for a band in London when I was 15.

Um, designed a website for the first internet cafe in, in Amsterdam.

And so, yeah, from, from kind of being in a situation where I, I couldn't even

answer a question or read the question or in a textbook and answer it to,

to kind of then being creative, um, and, and actually building things that

were, were really fascinating for me.

Yeah.

And so kind of like sort of feeling that the, the kind of alternate sort

of struggles really, so their school, which is about struggle, um, sort of

not being kind of seen, not being heard.

A lot of battle, essentially, a lot of, a lot of fight.

It feels like in there.

Compared to the track, which started to open up in a, in a workspace, which

is more creative, easier, just a kind of smoother journey, kind of feels

like there was kind of contrasting rub between those two worlds.

No.

Absolutely.

Absolutely.

I mean, the, you know, my journey and, and time in Holland was not always so smooth.

Um, my, my father actually, uh, left a year later after me being there, um,

without any prior, uh, communication.

So I just came home one day and he had left.

Uh, so at the age of 16, Um, I was left with my, my, my

stepmom and my half sister.

And that was quite a challenging time again, you know, just not really the kind

of experience you want to go through.

And, you know, finding myself, having to really, you know,

stand on my own two feet.

And my, my stepmom at the time was quite broken for obvious reasons and yeah,

I had to continue working and there wasn't a job anymore with my father.

So then I reached out to his friends and I guess, cuz of the scenario

and situation I was offered another job and um, not to go into detail,

but that, that didn't end so well.

Uh, it, it, it was, uh, someone giving me a job for the reasons

that, that weren't maybe very healthy and, and actually, um, yeah.

So, so my, my kind of work and, and, and, and experience was the start of

something incredible there, but then there were also challenges that, that

kind of, you know, continued for a while.

And, um, it was just, I think two years later, my mum passed away, uh, which

was also quite, uh, had a very deep impact on, on my, my sister myself.

And at this point we had a, a younger brother as well.

So, you know, the, the, the kind of life journey from having a

really positive shift then did take a few wobbles along the way.

But yeah, I, I think that that kind of inner knowledge that I was able

to do things, you know, allowed me to kind of continue on, on my kind of,

you know, path of, of discovery, of, of my, my kind of self and the things

that I wanted to do work wise as well.

Yeah.

So kind of these, like you say, these really significant shocks

that sort of come, you know, starting school shocks with that.

Sister going, wanting to go.

You know, moving between the two countries, then your

dad also kind of moving on.

Kind of constant sort of shocks, but then somehow your spirit, the human spirit kind

of pushing on through always finding a response, always somehow moving forward.

Yeah, absolutely.

I mean, I, I definitely couldn't have done any of those things on, on my own.

I think when you have tragedy or trauma, and I think you find that there are people

that, you know, are really there for you and, you know, something that I really

value and am grateful for and has really kind of supported my life journey has

been the people that I've met and the people that have whether it's for a short

period of time or, or lifelong people.

And, you know, it's, it's been something that yeah, ha has really

supported me through those times.

And the kind of connection and relationships has, has, has played

such a huge role in, in everything that I've ever done with my life.

And, um, yeah, I, I kind of, I think you can't underestimate the value of a

connection with someone, you know, it, it, it can, it can really mean so much.

And, and at times when you don't even think about it,

you know, it's, it's, it's.

People have come in in, in and out of my life or, you know, I've met someone when

I was traveling in India when I was 17, that then was there for me 10 years later.

And I hadn't seen them for those 10 years.

And so it's, it's, it's kind of interesting that I think with my feeling

or, or belief of lack of skills, because of not having an education and not

training in any particular area of work, having deep friendships with people

and connections has actually been the thing that's carried me through my life.

It's interesting.

I, I was talking to someone this morning and, uh, I meet up with him

periodically and, and one of his, we have kids who are the same age,

they used to go to school together.

And I remember we were talking once sort of few, quite a few

years ago when our kids were.

Sort of young at primary school.

And, uh, we were sort of talking about all the things, of course,

that school doesn't teach you.

Uh, and he was kinda making the point making the observation, you know, if

actually the kids were just taught to share their fucking sandwich, you

know, actually the amount of kind of learning that comes from that, which

actually, you know, I reminded of that when you were just talking there, you

know, this thing around connection, the thing around having, you know, a network

of support and what it takes for that to happen and how you recognize that

and how you nurture that, you know, that is actually the stuff of life.

But in many ways, it's the kind of stuff of life that we are forced to learn

outside of school or as a consequence of school rather than facilitated.

And also it is been interesting for me because I feel like that

is a skill that I genuinely have, and it's not always something I've

necessarily believed, but it's been highlighted to me on many occasions.

And it's the one skill that it's quite hard to kind of give it a

title or a role within a company.

However, throughout my life, I've probably been in 10 situations of, of business,

uh, startups or projects, whether it's music or art or business projects as well,

where I end up being kind of the glue.

So it's the connections that I have that maybe brings the people in and,

and kind of connect them with each other because I tend to know someone that

works in this area or has that skillset.

And then also once you have these people together, then there is a,

a kind of a motivation internally that does need to happen.

And so I, I find myself being the kind of driving force sometimes

with moving projects forward.

However, I'm not the one with the skills who, you know, is a musician or

the artist or, or, you know, whatever the, the kind of the, the computer

programmer or whatever it may be.

That's not my skillset, but supporting everyone to kind of keep moving forward

in these projects is, is, you know, I'm learning that it's a skillset on its own.

Yeah.

It's interesting.

Yeah.

LinkedIn doesn't have a category for being human glue.

Exactly.

Yeah.

I would probably get paid okay if it did.

But so relationships being important, which is probably

quite a good, good segue.

So relationships obviously with your, with your sister, with your

siblings has been really important.

And so, a venture, which, uh, either brought you back to the UK, well,

maybe let's, let's let's talk chips.

Uh let's let's go to chip.

So the, the route route of chips, uh, that will of course mean nothing

to, uh, most people listening.

Maybe you can, you can, you can fill in some story around, around chips for me.

Well, I guess luckily, most people know what chips are, you know, it's

a, it's a popular food item that, that people eat all around the world.

Um, however, with my sister and myself, uh, as mentioned earlier, being born in

Amsterdam and in Holland, they've taken on the kind of Belgium traditional French.

I say French.

Belgium fry.

Um, now known and, and quoted as the French fry, but it's the kind of method

in which they're cooked and they're very popular, you know, in my opinion, have

a kind of superior taste and texture to what we in Britain know as the

kind of regular fish and chip chips.

Um, so we decided, uh, well, we're looking at about seven years ago now

that we wanted to be the first to open a Belgian chip shop in the UK and with

my brother being a chef and having been worked at some of London's top restaurants

and my sister worked in retail, customer relations, customer service.

So the three of us came together to open B Frith, the first

Belgium, uh, chip shop in the UK.

So it, it was, yeah, quite an incredible experience.

I mean, again, because of the kind of life journey, my relationship with my

sister and my brother and losing our mum and we've always been very close and, and

actually with my insecurities, there'd been a few times when I'd wanted to start

something, but didn't quite have the courage or, or feel like I could do it on

my own, and doing this with my brother and my sister that knew me inside out, it, it

just felt like a, an amazing opportunity.

And it, yeah, we, we kind of, yeah, spent four years building a brand

reputation that was, you know, went global, to be honest, you know,.

It, it really was recognized as, uh, quite an experience, although it was

double cooked chips, and we had over 20 different sources to go with them,

it, it was the actual experience.

And I think that's again about being human about understanding people's needs about

engaging, listening to people's stories.

You know, we had regulars that were very young, that would come on

their own and bring their parents.

And then we would have, you know, grandparents that would be

regulars on their own and they'd bring in their kids or grandkids.

And yeah, we really, in those years of, of working in the shop, which was

pretty much a seven day a week job, we got to know a, a lot of people

within the community and it, it really, yeah, it was an incredible experience.

I mean, things for us became quite challenging.

And, and actually at the beginning of lockdown, we, we did close our restaurant.

So, you know, the kind of experience of building something up and, and

kind of getting it to, I guess, ticking a lot of the boxes of success.

Like a lot of recognition, a lot of awards, you know, viral

videos and, and things like that.

The, the actual numbers were difficult.

And when lockdown occurred, it, it just kind of quickly became apparent.

We couldn't on with a physical store.

I'm curious what the process was deciding on chips in the first place.

How, how did it come?

I mean, I know you had, you were exposed to high quality chippage, uh, via your

life in life in Amsterdam, but what, so presumably you could have done anything.

What was going on that meant chips bubbled to the fore at that time?

So, I mean, at that particular time, I, my personal kind of work experience

was that I'd, um, moved back to the UK.

It was actually to be a part of a record label, an independent

record label based in London.

Um, so I was working with the record label.

We, you know, been through that tra transition of kind of going from vinyl

to CD, to digital, and sadly for us, it kind of quickly became apparent that we,

you know, would, would struggle to kind.

Carry on with our business model.

So it was at a point when we were all looking for something to do.

And my brother had spent several years working, you know, extremely long

hours for high end restaurants and was looking for something to do for himself.

And I was at the time, not really thinking about myself, but actually thinking

about my brother and what he could do.

And we had a few quite fancy ideas and based on his skill level of Sheffing,

it was kind of very fancy ideas.

And then, you know, the reality of starting a business from scratch and

raising funds and the research, and it just kind of popped into my head that,

you know, these Frith that we used to have in Holland and when I went back there

and was living there, I'd always take people to my favorite fry shop and just

seeing their face and their experience of eating something that they've known their

whole lives, but can be so much better.

And so as a kind of Startup business, it just suddenly kind

of felt like a, a no brainer.

It's chips, we're introducing something that people already love done in a

way that really, we feel like people would only appreciate even more.

Um, from a point of view of kind of managing, you know, stock levels and,

and, um, ordering products and goods, just, you know, one product done really

well, and so, yeah, and that's kind of, we were all, I guess, at a point

when it was just the right time to do something and the chip idea just when it

sunk in, it just felt like that that's the right route for us all to go on.

I remember you, you told me before, so one of your references was like

a, a sort of a, a kind of hole in the wall type, uh, chip place.

I think it was, I, it was in Brussels or if it's an Amsterdam?

Yeah, there there's one particular place in Amsterdam that's world famous.

And it's definitely our reference point and was our kind of model of

the, the quality of the chips, of what we wanted to reproduce in the UK.

Um, and we actually spent, you know, many times going there and we would

sit a little bit down, it's down a little alleyway and it's just a hatch.

So it's literally just serving people onto the street.

And we would sit there and, and actually count how many people

were going through in an hour.

You know, and we were really doing our research and we ended up, um,

actually poaching someone from there to train us on the method of cooking,

cuz we felt like the quality was really had to be there in order to

kind of have these cues of people.

And so it was that model, you know, that's, that's what we kind of wanted

to build ourselves upon, replicating this experience at this place.

However, when we were in the UK and looking for places, we kind of realized

that actually it's not really a done thing, just having a hole in the

wall, it's not something so common.

And we felt like we needed to have an inside area because

of the weather over here.

And, you know, they had a reputation, like I said, that was worldwide.

It was in the guidebook.

So everyone coming, every tourist, we had to make sure that it was good

for our locals and regular customers.

So we went down a slightly different route and created a restaurant experience

with chips and dips essentially.

And yeah, you know, there were definitely a big learning curve in

our kind of staff costing and our margins on actually the product and.

You know, that's when you really have to get your, your head around

the kind of running a business and what it means to make sure that

you can actually make it function.

And, you know, we, we did for many years, um, but then, you know, when

the high streets were empty and the reality of bills, it, it, it kind of

became apparent that it wasn't the right model for what we were offering.

Yeah, I think because the thing that I found is, you know, years,

zero to three, essentially provided you get over that first initial,

it's all adrenaline, isn't it?

And you know, in, in a way that actually can carry you

far, you know, pure adrenaline.

But at some point the all adrenaline isn't quite enough to kind of

make the next thing happen.

And so then the, the reality of cost and doing all of that, that just

became too much to bear, did it?

Yeah, that that's pretty much how it went.

I think, you know, adrenaline perhaps carried us even maybe a

little bit further than it should have, you know, the kind of.

It, it it's, it's slightly odds perhaps when you're talking about a

chip shop, but it felt like we were providing a service to our community.

You know, we, we kind of really engaged with our customers and, you know, there

were people that from all walks of life that had personal challenges, mental

health issues, and, you know, they found a bit of a safe place with us.

And so our motivation was really carried through by our customers.

And when you kind of looked at the numbers, you know, perhaps our fight

to continue and our fight to make it work, perhaps someone from the

outside would've said, look, this isn't gonna work carrying on like this.

Um, but we, we kept fighting because we just felt like it was something

really important for us to do.

Not, you know, it became more than, you know, cooking people, delicious

chips and making them delicious dips.

It, it did feel more than that.

You know, but then, like I said, that that reality of, of, the way the high

streets suddenly went, you know, it became apparent very quickly when we

weren't doing our actual jobs and serving that yes, you know, the, the financials

weren't there to support us to continue.

So, um, yeah, it, it was quite heartbreaking.

Um, we did have to kind of pull the plug and, and kind of close that down.

Um, I guess the, the the blessing was that we had previously just

started jarring some of our mayos that we made to serve with our fries.

And we already knew that they were very popular, and actually from the very

beginning of starting BeFries, we always had the idea that we would like to be

selling jars of our sauces so people could eat them at home, not just to be able to

come to our restaurant to experience them.

So the, the, the vision from the very beginning was kind of there.

And, and actually having closed the, the physical premises, it then meant that we

actually had time, which we didn't have before and the kind of decision to carry

on, uh, and just do our, our jarred sauces you know, was a, was a matter of days.

It wasn't really a question mark, whether we would, or we wouldn't.

And actually, like I said, having been closed, you suddenly had the hours in

the day to focus on it, whereas we'd been wanting to do it for a couple

years and just not have the time.

Many ways, one of our great problems as a, as a people, as a culture

is we're, we're really fucking bad ending things, aren't we?

So, you know, the whole kind of culture it assumes death doesn't

happen, obviously that, I mean that in its kind of broadest sense.

And so Like we, we tend to rush through endings a little bit.

Uh, and of course endings can mean the beginning of the next thing.

And I'm just kind of curious what that sort of transition, what the

ending of one sort of felt like, uh, how that kind of came about

and what those few days were like.

Well I mean, the reality of how it came about was we went into work

one morning to, to just kind of have a meeting, and we had a meeting

scheduled there, and our landlord had locked us out, changed the locks.

And that was, uh, a real shock.

We weren't expecting it.

And legally, we didn't think that that was even a possibility wasn't,

you know, done above the law.

And so that day and that meeting, we then had to go and have somewhere else.

And after that meeting, we were all actually in shock, you know, and then

we were communicating with solicitors, working out what we do and how we do it.

And, you know, as these phone calls were happening and the reality of the

situation, and there was money owed on the rent, which is of course why it happened

and looking at kind of going forward and then reflecting on how the past year

had been, it kind of started to sink in that, you know, perhaps fighting this and

spending many thousands to try and get our doors back open again, it didn't mean that

we would then have a successful business.

So it was, you know, heartbreaking.

And, and like you said, you know, closing and especially a force closure,

you know, it feels like failure, the, the, the kind of judgment that you

everyone's gonna have on you, the people that have supported you and backed you

financially, you know, there's a lot to kind of process and a lot to go through.

And it, it definitely was not an easy, you know, couple of days let alone easy

few months, you know, I mean, the, the dream and vision of being able to carry

something on was very fortunate that it was there in the making, but it definitely

still took the wind out of our sales.

And, and it, you know, we really collectively had to support each

other through many tears and feelings of, you know, real failure

going through the legal process of closing and you know, that we, we

had to call all of our investors and everyone that supported us.

And, you know, we did that straight away cause we didn't want people

to hear it from anyone else.

And we asked everyone else's opinion and what they thought we should do.

And so, yeah, it, it was a really hard time.

And actually, you know, on a personal note, it, it didn't

get easier for some time.

You know, again, talking about self-esteem and confidence, it

knocked both of those out of me again.

Um, and you know, not servicing people again, you know, that, that.

I realized that actually a lot of myself worth was about feeling of doing

something good and when the shot closed that wasn't there for me to do anymore.

And so, you know, um, I, I definitely, you know, took me a while emotionally

to kind of get through that experience of, I guess, loss, you know, and,

and failure that, that feeling.

You know, we did have the sauces.

So that was like this kind of candle of light that, that, you know, we

don't have to give everything up.

And all of our hard, hard work has not kind of been for nothing.

You know, I think there's a, a feeling of like, when you put your

heart and soul and, and to be honest, we, we put our family home into it.

So it was like a, we lost everything financially, uh, emotionally, you

know, uh, the kind of running on adrenaline, when that plug gets

pooled, you feel pretty flat, you know?

And, and so, yeah.

Picking things up and go kind of moving forward was not an easy

process for all three of us.

And there were many times when we had to really lift each other up to kind of keep

going and, and to, to believe in that we could do something and learn from our

experience, learn all the, the, the kind of harsh lessons and, and put those into

something new, and then carry on with, with the kind of bigger vision really.

Uh, how long did it take before you were kind of felt like you had the

wind bit more back in your sales?

I think it was different for all three of us.

I'll probably only talk about myself personally, but you know, it probably

took me over a year, you know, I mean it was during lockdown and so there were

many kind of life challenges that would, none of us had really gone through.

Unfortunately I lost my father-in-law in that time and,

and two of my good friends as well.

So it was kind of like just a lot going on that was in a time when you

couldn't be with other people you couldn't just have a coffee or have a

hug or gather with friends, you know.

So kind of going through that process and internally a lot of it done and within

my own head, I think it, it, it kind of made the process for me personally, take

a lot longer than perhaps it would've with lockdown, not being in place.

Undoubtedly and undoubtedly, but equally I would've thought that actually.

You know, if you think about all of the years of kind of energy, you'd put into

the venture, all of that adrenaline anyway, you know, even all of that other

sort of stuff of hard stuff of life aside, just the act of that energy, that

commitment, that will to succeed being kind of pulled out from underneath you,

you would've thought, you know, the kind of tail of that would take quite

a bit of time to run through anyway.

So, you know, wouldn't be surprising at all that, uh, it took a year,

two years, whatever it might be.

I we're just not good at giving ourselves space for that.

Are we.

No, no, no, absolutely.

I mean, you know, another thing that kind of was layered on top of that time was I

think two days after, uh, with the doors were closed of B BeFries, I was told in

a hospital room that I, I had cancer.

And so it was like, just again, the, the wind kind of completely taken out of you.

And actually at that time, you know, having worked so hard, you know, I've

never worked so hard for, for, for that four years to then feel like the outcome

of, of, you know, losing everything and then actually almost like a punishment,

uh, then to be told that you are ill, you.

um, just to say very fortunately after another month of further tests and

scans and, and a few other things, then they actually said it isn't

Oh Oh, fuck.

Which of course is a great blessing.

I'm glad the story went that way, but even so, I mean, fuck.

I I know.

Well, I was with my partner, Lisa, and, you know, bless for supporting me

through all of these kind of experiences.

But we were both, you know, just in shock.

And then afterwards we were like, you know, kind of a bit angry because it's

like, how can someone tell you that?

You know, and we were sat together in that doctor's room.

And, what it also did was allowed us to then be grateful for what

we have and actually me being at home for the first time.

You know, when we had BeFries, I was sleeping most nights on my brother's

living room floor because of where geographically, where we live.

So, it was this kind of like rage at that, but then it was also like, oh, it's

allowed us to reconnect and realign our values as a family, with my children.

And that time in the kind of not knowing and waiting was

actually oddly quite special.

And then we were able to kind of, you know, at least try and carry that on.

And just remembering that our time together is, is, is very

special and every day we should be grateful for and, and, and try and

get the most out of it together.

Whew.

That's really intense, really intense.

And, and so when I was kind of, you know, the sort of, all of that sort effort

and endeavor and struggle, even before that, those sorts of things, what I was

gonna sort of come to you kind of made reference to the sauces being, I can't

remember the exact phrase used this idea of this kind of candle of hope.

And so out of all of this, out of all of this, sort of effort, endeavor,

all I was talking about all of this sort of struggle and strife, um,

a candle of hope was being born.

So the, the sauces we'd won awards for our sauces, you know, people, um, we

watched them eat them every day and the, the kind of wows and, oh my God.

And this is amazing.

I'll never tasted anything like it, you know, it wasn't just a one off.

and these, so this is, sauces for the chips, yeah?

Yes.

So, so this was kind of happening in our shop for those four years and having

had thousands and thousands of people, we were getting requests that people

would, would want to take them home.

So we were doing pots and then start doing jars.

And so that, that kind of candle was there because we knew there was a demand.

We knew there was already a love.

And we knew that we had the beginning of a customer base already.

So I guess our belief and experience and knowledge was that we can make this

something, you know, it already had become the beginning of something and

now we can actually give it the time and effort that it needs to turn the

sauces on their own, into a business.

And so we went from closing BeFries to then launching BeSourcy, which

is our, our vegan condiment company.

Uh, currently with three vegan, mayonnaises three different flavors.

So yeah, that dream and vision was hard to continue on because of the

knock, but that candle and belief was there and we knew we had something and

we just had to pick each other up to, to kind of continue on that journey.

And you, uh, you kind of making reference earlier when you were talking

about the, uh, BeFries, actually kind of feeling like a service, uh, and

the, you know, it was kind of more than it's more than the, the product.

It was the experience.

The thing, which just coming into my energy, talking,

this is sauces as a service.

It's the ultimate SaSS business, isn't it?

Yeah.

Very good.

Yes.

uh, and so, where's this journey now?

So, um, after, you know, a lot of work, because you know, behind the scenes,

before you start a business, there's obviously a lot that goes into it.

And even though it is our product and something that we knew very well,

uh, we had to find a manufacturer because we knew the production the

way we were doing it before making it ourselves was not scalable.

We want to be a global brand.

We know that in order to do that, you have to be able to upscale production.

Finding a manufacturer.

We knew that we would also need funds.

So going through the process of creating a business plan, finding an investor to,

to kind of help us start that journey.

Did you find your investor?

it, was actually through one of our investors in BeFries.

So we, we had several investors in BeFries and, you know, all very supportive

and understanding to what happened.

And out of a, a kind of, you know, gesture from our point of view,

even though we were advised not to, we have brought them all with

us through, into the new business.

Why were you advised not to?

I think from a share holding point of view, I think most people that

are serial investors, it's like they invested in something that didn't work.

It failed, therefore that's the end.

And when starting a new business, having multiple investors involved is not so

appealing to future rounds of investment.

Um, so we had to, you know, kind of look at it and we took it all on board

and got legal advice and have done it in such a way that it, it works

hopefully for investors going forward.

But of course, you know, we really value that without everyone involved,

we wouldn't have had what we had and the sauces were always a part of that journey.

So for us, it was, of course they come with us and, and, you know,

hopefully share the the kind of experience and rewards on this journey.

But it required you to learn an entirely new business again, didn't it?

So you'd gone through learning the first one or the, you know, the BeFries,

you're learning retail, you're learning food production, all of those things.

Now you're going to this, you're learning manufacturer,

you're learning distribution.

It's a whole new set of things to learn.

It is, it is.

I mean, I think for us, you know, the previous business was in food and actually

the connections that we made through the shop, we were kind of very fortunate

and lucky to be able to communicate with people that were doing food products

and found manufacturers and been through retail and wholesale and buyers.

And so we were able, again, through that connection, you know, through making

friends and, and, and finding people that we like to work with, we, we were

able to gain a lot of knowledge and experience from them before we started.

So, you know, we did have quite, uh, a good idea of what it was gonna take to

do certain things and the challenges that, what those points would be.

And I guess also, you know, running a business, knowing your margins,

understanding the figures and, you know, being able to monitor things well

so that you are not making mistakes or letting things go unknown for months

and months and months, those things are fundamental to most businesses.

So, we'd learned so much from running BeFries that then we were able to

implement systems and structure that meant that we could monitor

everything that we were doing and look at what was working, what wasn't.

I think with the previous business, we were working so hard that actually,

you know, office time was, was not, we didn't have a lot of it, you know,

whereas here we kind of started in the office and really focused on how we

could grow this business, and do it very openly and not blindly, you know.

And how involved have the shareholders been in helping you

work through the challenges of this and solve these problems?

Or are you kind of left to get on with your own staff or how, how

participatory is the, is, is the scene

Yeah.

I mean, We said that the, the actual one of our old investors from

BeFries was the one that introduced us to our new investor for BeSaucy.

So without our old investors, we wouldn't necessarily be where we are now.

I think, you know, we have investors that are still very supportive and, you know,

when we actively are looking for something or a person in a certain industry or

someone that works somewhere, we can ask everyone, and people will put people

forward and try and support and help us.

With our current investor with BeSaucy, he's been really helpful

and actually educating us a lot.

Um, he understands business very well.

And so having someone that actually we engage with every month and we go

through everything is teaching us and it makes us again, like be able to really

look at our business and, and see what we need to do to kind of tweak things

to, to improve sales or to improve our margin or, you know, anything that

kind of helps support a business grow.

So, yeah, we're, we're very fortunate that we have an investor that actually

takes time and effort and actually likes and believes that we can really,

uh, achieve big things with it.

it's another product of the human glue.

Isn't it?

You've kind of taken a product of the connections, a product of being

in touch with people, a product of kind of being human glue.

Yeah.

That's, that's gonna be my business card, I guess.

Excellent.

And so where, where, where do I find BeSaucy?

So, uh, BeSaucy now is, is sold in lots of independent stores.

I mean, the best way to kind of find your, your nearest store to you is

on our website, uh, besaucy.co.uk.

You can now put your post code in, and it will tell you the nearest store to you.

We are working with four wholesalers, so we do set across the whole country.

I guess the bigger companies stocking our product at the moment are, uh,

Planet Organic, which have got 13 stores across London, uh, Gorillas, which is

like an online grocery delivery company.

We're in currently 27 of the warehouses, and we started off in five.

So yeah, month on month, we are expanding, our sales are going up and

we're getting into more stores and, and more people can access our product.

And we also sell online.

So we are accessible to all.

As a candle of hope or a phoenix rising from the, the various kind

of ashes along the way, it feels like a, a really inspiring and

positive place that you are at today.

It's incredible, to be honest with you.

I mean, I think, having kind of gone through some of my life experiences and

the challenges that I went through in my earlier years and, and the things that

perhaps I've not done or, or been too scared to do, to kind of be in a position

where I'm together with my brother and my sister, and we are running a company

together that is growing, and, uh, the potential with it is, is incredible.

And yeah, to, to, to be in this position, if you had asked me 20

years ago or something whether I'd be running my own businesses or had

a few of my own businesses, I, I wouldn't have believed you at all.

So t's it is incredible.

And I, I, I do appreciate it.

And I feel like most people, if they really want to do something,

they can, but from like me for many years, I never felt like I could.

And, you know, I think that what you, what you've done is a, is a Testament to your

human glueness like we've spoken about.

It's also a Testament to your resilience, and I've no doubt that is sort of

shared by your, your siblings too.

And I might also say it's probably also in a way kind of testament, you know,

we were kind of, we, we touched on this idea that, okay, yes, there were

lots of things which you kind of lost confidence because you were not able to

play the game that school taught you.

But, and then the flip of that too, is not being constrained by only playing

the game that school taught you.

So it kind of, these things kind of worked both ways, round a little bit.

No, absolutely.

I mean, I think, you know, if you, if you could draw some kind of chart or

graph or diagram of kind of traditional way of school and then college and

university and jobs, if that line was essentially a kind of, you know,

slightly wiggly line, but straight, mine has been zigzagging kind of across.

Because cuz of the nature of, you know, not having any skillsets, I've

had to always look outside the box of what I can do and how I can do it.

And so that has been very interesting, but, but challenging along the way.

But actually those skill sets and the little bits that I've learned from various

different people and roles that I've taken on has kind of led me to this position

where now I feel like actually, you know, I've done a lot and I can do a lot.

And if there's a skill set missing that you don't have or hold, you can

get people and combine people and be that glue to get the right team

together to make something happen.

You don't have to have the knowledge and experience of, of

everyone to make something work.

If you come back for another conversation, I know you don't like

having these conversations, but this has been a great conversation.

Uh, I think that everything in that story is really, really,

really useful for people to hear.

But of course, I know this only, I know, this is only part of the current story.

And what would be really, really good.

Another point to have a conversation around is how a lot, a lot of the other

things that you're working on, which are around more web3, some blockchain

things, and a whole kind of bubbling school of interest and opportunity,

which is happening on that side.

So I would love it if we could arrange another conversation at

another time to get into some of that.

Yeah, no, I'd be more, more than happy, you know.

That journey of, of where that is and how I got there also

really stems from childhood.

And so there's something that does tie it all together and, and yeah, it would

be really good to talk about that too.

Thank you for listening.

As ever, if you like the conversation, if you like the ideas that Dash is

sharing and talk about and you think they'd be interesting or relevant to

anybody else, please feel free to share.

That is the lifeblood of what we're doing.

If you wanna check out some of the other conversations, of

course, always go to the website.

Just search up buddhaontheboard.com and you'll find the link to

Peripheral Thinking there.

If you like this conversation, maybe check out another conversation we had with

Ruth Anslow, also a pioneering business person looking to do things differently.

Feel free to check that out.

Until next time, thanks again.

Look forward to having you along on the next conversation.