Surprised By The Rings of Power Season 2 Episodes 1 - 3

Philip: 00:00:00

It's easy to think about Rings of Power in terms of the lack

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of lore or the bad story writing.

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For our purposes for season

two, what we're wanting to do is

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have a more wholesome approach

to how we review the show.

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Trying to take into consideration the

things that are close to the lore,

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things that aren't close to the lore.

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The things, we enjoyed the

things we didn't enjoy so much.

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And there are things in season two

that, really do come out this way.

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Like Cirdan the Shipwright.

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So with that, we want to make

sure that we're not just going

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in, just bashing the show because

you know, that's the thing to do.

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We're actually wanting to

give it a fair assessment.

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So with that, let's dive right in.

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Philip Intro: Welcome, my lords, to

the White City, where you will learn

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more about Middle-earth and discover

differences and similarities between

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the Rings of Power show and Tolkien's

books, and whether Amazon's show,

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episode by episode, is worth watching.

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I'm Philip Dudt your host, and I'll

be joined by Matt Vandevort and

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Mark Schaeffer I hope you enjoy.

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Philip: Hey everyone, thanks for

tuning in to The white City Podcast.

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Today we're going to be reviewing

the first episode of season two.

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I'll be here with Mark, my

co host, and we'll be talking

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Mark: going?

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Philip: Yes, hello Mark.

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And, uh, we'll be talking through

basically, different parts

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of the episode that were like

the lore, not like the lore.

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And, our least favorite or most

favorite parts of the episode and

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any changes in characters that might

have happened since our, the previous

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season, since a lot of fans kind of had,

had a big, uh, big bustle about that.

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So.

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Mark, how about, like, the beginning

of the first episode, if you can

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remember back to, like, the beginning

of the first episode of season one?

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I know a

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Mark: The flashback with Saron, right?

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Philip: Yeah, it was

flashback with Sauron.

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I can't remember if it

started with Sauron.

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Was that it?

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Was, like, the flashback with Sauron,

like, was that the first thing?

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Mark: he's trying

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to convince, the Orcs to

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Philip: Yes.

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All right.

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Yep.

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Mm hmm.

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yeah,

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So we've got that, which is interesting

because in the first season we actually

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had the same same location, basically,

that they're opening on as well,

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which was in the north, Forodwaith?

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Mark: right.

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Yeah.

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Whoa.

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Phil bustin' out the real thing, but yeah.

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Was a way up north Galadriel first episode

of the first season, and that's where they

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start the second, uh, the first episode of

the second season is Sauron being there.

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Philip: Yeah, so I just I also remember

that because on the maps that we had

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growing up like we had a we had a like

a map in our room like, you know so

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like we'd look at it all the time.

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We were going to bed we'd like

to take a look at the map.

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So I do remember that Forodwaith

was up up north if you

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Mark: So, yeah.

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Philip: actually see that

somewhat right up there

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Mark: And in the lore, a lot of

Sauron's early fortresses were up

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north, and it was like, when he moved

to Mordor was sort of his like, first

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time going anywhere besides the north.

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Also, Morgoth always used to

have his fortresses in the north.

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So, it's pretty lore accurate that

Sauron would have, and a bunch

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of orcs would be up in the north.

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Philip: a little chilly.

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Mark: Yeah.

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Philip: Okay, so,

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anyways.

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But yeah, so we've got that,

Sauron's trying to, like, convince

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the orcs to join him, right?

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And then we think about, like, the

first part of the first season where

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Galadriel's with her band and they're,

like, going through trying to find

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Sauron in the same place, actually.

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But they get there a

little too late, I guess?

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Anyway, so like did you feel like it

was more enticing or is it still kind

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of like a little bit bland because I

felt like in the first season the first

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episode is starting off really slow?

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Mark: Yeah, I sort of remember like even

the first several episodes it felt like it

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wasn't until like the fifth episode of the

first season really started picking up.

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I guess I've already felt more

excitement and feel like the pace is a

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little bit faster in the second season

and that I think maybe in general

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I'd say I think they've just done a

better job with the season so far.

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To break down that specific scene

you're talking about I think we see,

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like, some of maybe the, what's good

about The Rings of Power and what

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I dislike about The Rings of Power.

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And what's good is that, like, it's not a

moment that, like, is super, uh, that it's

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not really, like, laid out in the lore.

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The, you know, they have some

new characters the, the father,

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is, like, a new character, that,

like, is the leader of the orcs.

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And so this, like, moment

is, like, sort of new.

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And I think they do a good job of sort

of portraying, like, new interesting

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aspects, and also, like, some, you

know, lore aspects where Sauron is

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trying to, like, use fear to press the

people, press the orcs into his service.

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Yeah.

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I think I also see, like, what I don't

like about this show is that they make

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the, and this is, like, sort of a theme

that's been running out, but, like,

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there's not a lot of magic in the show,

and they make the, um, a lot of the

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characters seem like very, like they're

just like people who have good martial

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arts skills, like Galadriel's someone

throughout the show just has like a

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lot of martial arts skills and it's

notable like Sauron doesn't use magic

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or power to somehow like kill any orcs.

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He just sort of, you know,

stabs them or throws them.

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And I always think of the, you know, the

scene in the beginning of The Fellowship

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of the Ring, right, where Sauron has

like his mace and he's just like sending

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these guys flying and it's clear that

like he has magical power, and when he

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dies, I thought that was really cool

where, like, he explodes or whatever,

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but then he becomes, he becomes, like,

this black gooey monster that reminds

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me of a symbiote from the Marvel series.

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And whenever Sauron is described as,

like, dying, it's always very spirit like.

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And there's this idea that, like, he

loses his ability to be in the flesh.

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And it takes him a long time, he doesn't

need to, like, eat these monsters.

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And while it seemed sinister

and creepy, it wasn't very

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true to lore in a lot of ways.

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So that's sort of what I'm

looking for is going forward.

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I think that's something you see

throughout the show is that they're

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using magic very, very, in a very

small part of the show, that's

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centered around the rings, and not

magic throughout the rest of the show.

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But, what they have created and

some of the new storylines they

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have created are very interesting.

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And I think I've looked

forward to the second season.

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even more because of these new

storylines that I've sort of come

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to like, and generally my impression

of the second season was that I just

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liked it more than the last seasons.

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But yeah.

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We were going to talk about

our favorite episodes of part

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of each of the episodes, Phil.

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And my favorite part of the first episode

was probably that, that sort of scene.

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It was sort of just a fun scene that

wasn't really portrayed anywhere

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else and I thought it was really,

a really sort of unique deal.

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Yeah, what about you?

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What's your favorite part

of the first episode?

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Philip: Okay, yeah, so my favorite part

of the first episode It is kind of tough

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because they kind of all run together,

since I just watched them back to back.

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So I think for the most part we saw

being with the orcs and we also saw the

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elves and like the rings going on there.

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I think probably like my favorite part

of the first episode would have been

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like, Cirdan, or Cirdan, the shipwright.

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I thought that was pretty cool to see

him and this is kind of like also well,

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I knew that he's like One of the oldest,

if not like, the oldest elf around.

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So it's neat to like, have them

show that and then have Elrond be

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like, Hey, I know that you're wise

enough to know what to do with these.

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Mark: He's so old he's one of the

only two elves who have beards in the

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canon so that's why he actually has a

beard in the show and they like shaves

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it off in one of the later episodes

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Philip: Ah, ah,

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Mark: Yeah,

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Philip: that's great.

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Mark: So elves were, like, a group of

elves were all born at the same time.

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They're like the founding, sort of

like the founding elf, elven fathers,

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and he's actually one of them.

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He doesn't go to Valinor like the others.

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That's why people like Galadriel,

despite being younger than him,

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are sometimes considered to be

more powerful or more magic or have

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more esteem among the high elves.

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But he's always known for being

incredibly wise and, and faithful

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and loyal to Middle-earth.

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That was really interesting, right?

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So they have like the three rings

and how to use them, and it's Cirdan

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in the end who decides to use them

because he wants the elves to stay

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in Middle-earth as long as possible.

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And in the end, we know

that he'll have to leave.

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That's what happens in the actual

Lord of the Rings series um.

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But for now, he wants to stay, and

therefore he decides to use the rings.

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I know that was sort of an interesting,

like, part of the lore, accuracy

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that, like, Cirdan is one of the elves

who's most attached to Middle-earth,

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and therefore doesn't want to leave.

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Interestingly enough, another one is

Galadriel's husband, Celeborn, who also

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is one of the last to leave Middle-earth.

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So yeah, it's sort of interesting

that we see that sort of spirit.

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What did you think of the way the Elves,

well one Galadriel like just instantly

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straight up like Halbrand to Sauron

to Gil-Galad and then Gil-Galad trusts

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her and then there's like Gil-Galad

and Galadriel sort of teaming up

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against Elrond and Elrond deciding like

really being against using the rings.

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What did you think of that, Phil?

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How did you feel

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Philip: Yeah.

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Well, I know like one thing is I was

pretty fuzzy as to how things, went down

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in like the previous episodes, like the

last episode of season one, because I

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remember, and they, and they showed it to

where Elrond finds like that scroll that

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talks about like the Southlands and kind

of like some history behind it, I guess.

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And that's when like, Galadriel

like realized that like, he's not,

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he's not the king of the Southlands,

but then that's when he like

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tries to get her to like join him.

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So then he actually reveals

to her that he's Sauron.

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So she's the only one, I guess, in

that last episode of the first season,

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who knows that he's Sauron, which

is interesting because I thought, I

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thought like at least Elrond picked

up on it, by whenever he went out

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and grabbed the scroll in the first

season, but he didn't, I guess.

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So that's whenever, you know, so

basically Galadriel tells him for like

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the first time in this first episode

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that like, Sauron was, Haldir,

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or Halbrand am I?

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Haldir.

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Mark: His brother...

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Philip: Yes.

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So, anyways, Obviously, Gil-Galad was

wanting the, wanting the rings, and had

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an idea that they could be used for good.

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And Elrond, you know, didn't

have that idea at all.

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Only thing is, did he know that

they're, I guess he knew at that point

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that they were from, that Sauron was

Hallbrand, because that's why he's

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wanting to like, destroy them, right?

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Get rid

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Mark: As I recall at the end of the

first season, Galadriel had found out

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that Halbrand wasn't who he said he was.

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She confronted him and found out that

he was Sauron 'cause he told her, right.

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Sauron lives because of you.

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But in the, but Elrond just found out

that Halbrand wasn't who he said he was.

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He didn't know that he was Saron.

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So that's sort of why

that, interplay was there.

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Philip: Okay.

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Mark: It's interesting that, like, Elrond

will lead the White Council later on,

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right, to try to destroy the One Ring.

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And it's like, even at this point, he's

like, you know, these rings, we gotta

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destroy them from the very beginning.

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Um, I will say that, to me, the

most surprising part was how they

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changed the character of Gil-Galad.

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In the first episode, uh, first, sorry,

first season, I would have gone as

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far to say that he was an antagonist.

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Because the whole show, he's sort

of being played against Galadriel.

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He's been being played as

very authoritative, that

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he's sort of in the dark.

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And this season it seems like it

just totally flipped him where he's

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this wise king now who's looking for

everybody's advice and he's not, you

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know authoritative and he's letting

other people sort of control their things

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and yeah, it was sort of a big switch.

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Galadriel as well I think showed a lot of

humility in the first few episodes talking

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about like, oh i'm going to like find

him but it's also very differential to

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gilgit Gil-Galad as well as maybe starting

showing some more wisdom and like again,

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magic, because I like magic and it's

a big part of Lord of the Rings world.

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Even though she only gets her magic

after she gets the ring, which is not at

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all the way the book would portray it.

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But yeah, because the rings

actually enhance people's

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abilities they already have, so.

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These elves were people who already

had magic and power and therefore the

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rings gives them more magic and power.

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So yeah, I think there were some things

I liked about that and some things that

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I was like Oh, this is just a different

change, but probably a good change I

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forgot to mention really quick Sauron

in the first opening sequence the way he

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ends up on the raft was just like to me.

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It was just bonkers, right?

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He's like, oh I like ran into this

group of people and then we were

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on a boat and then it broke up and

then Galadriel was there, right?

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And it's really interesting that,

like, in The Lord of the Rings show,

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to me it's, or, sorry, in the, in

this books, there's always this idea

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that, like, evil is, like, powerful

and conniving and has these, like,

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strategies, but that it's, like, good

that has serendipity on its side, right?

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That, like, oh, like, it just so

happened that Gollum was there, or

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it just so happens that this thing

was there that, like, ends up being

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the thing that saves him in the end.

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But evil is the one who's overwhelmingly

powerful and the good needs to

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actually rely on these sort of chance

encounters, but it's really not chance

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because, you know, we know it's the

hand of Illuvatar behind it all.

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And it was interesting they sort of

portrayed almost this dark serendipity

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where Sauron just happens to be

in the right place at the right

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time to accomplish his own plans.

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and it sort of came up in the journey

of Halbrand a little bit where,

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you know, he just so happens to

get lucky breaks a lot of the time.

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I was sort of like, Oh, I

wasn't a huge fan of that.

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It seems like Sauron is getting more lucky

than, than like having a master plan.

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But I thought that he did do

a good job of showing his more

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conniving and cunning nature.

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I thought it was very clever that

he goes back to Adar and pretends

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like he's still Halbrand and

tries to make a deal with him.

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I thought that was

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Philip: Yeah.

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Mark: clever that you wouldn't really

think that was what he was wanting to do.

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And Mordor, you think he'd try to

take over, but instead he's gonna sort

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of play his enemies off against one

another, which is his real strength.

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Philip: Right.

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Yeah, it's interesting.

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So definitely, like, the least favorite

part of the first episode for me was the,

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the opening scene with Sauron trying to

convince the orcs to, like, join him.

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And it just seemed to me, like,

honestly when I was watching it,

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I'm like, oh, here's somebody

who's an imposter on Sauron trying

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to convince the orcs to join him.

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But then it's like, oh wait, no,

they're actually making this guy Sauron.

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Which to me was, like, weird in

my opinion, I was like, okay,

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like, he's not convincing at all.

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As you're saying about magic and

other things, like, he wasn't, didn't

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seem like he was that powerful to

really, for them to be like, to fear

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him or to even, like, respect him,

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you know?

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And I feel like,

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I feel like

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that, like, there could have been,

like, a bigger, like, scene, fight

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scene go down than what there was, but.

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Mark: He could have even like,

I mean, obviously like this

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costs like a budget, right?

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But this is like their sort of their

thing is like, Oh, he's a good speaker.

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: 00:15:06

And he's sort of like a

populist almost, you know, and

294

: 00:15:10

instead they turn against him.

295

: 00:15:11

But instead he could have been like, you

know, like 10 feet tall or something,

296

: 00:15:14

right, and have like magic and

be wearing this dark armor.

297

: 00:15:17

Instead he's like this little

like guy who's just like,

298

: 00:15:19

sort of, you know, follow me.

299

: 00:15:21

And his big moment of, like,

intimidation is, like, stabbing

300

: 00:15:23

this orc over and over again, right?

301

: 00:15:25

Rather than, like, some magical

feat that would have been beyond

302

: 00:15:27

the capabilities of anybody.

303

: 00:15:29

So again, that, like, is sort of

what I think that, like, oh, this

304

: 00:15:33

is not really in Lord of the Rings.

305

: 00:15:35

If you think of how Sauron's

portrayed in Lord of the Rings, it's

306

: 00:15:37

always very intimidating, right?

307

: 00:15:38

It's always very terrifying.

308

: 00:15:40

And they seem to be going with

the conniving Sauron, but not

309

: 00:15:43

also the terrifying Sauron.

310

: 00:15:44

He has both of these halves.

311

: 00:15:46

The other thing I was going to say, it's

actually kind of lore accurate though,

312

: 00:15:48

that Sauron would at times take a light

form and try to appear like he was this

313

: 00:15:54

elf king and he would do it to the peoples

of Middle-earth to try to gain their

314

: 00:15:59

confidence, but the orcs would always

mock Sauron for that because, you know,

315

: 00:16:02

they, they don't respect high elves,

so when Sauron would appeal as a high

316

: 00:16:07

elf, sort of like he does in the show,

when he becomes Annatar, they would sort

317

: 00:16:11

of look down on him or even mock him.

318

: 00:16:13

And so that was sort of interesting that

he's not connecting with the orcs because

319

: 00:16:17

he's sort of wearing this light face.

320

: 00:16:19

Was maybe a little bit more lore accurate.

321

: 00:16:22

Philip: Okay.

322

: 00:16:23

Mark: but yeah.

323

: 00:16:24

Philip: Alright, well

that's interesting then.

324

: 00:16:26

So, what about, I mean.

325

: 00:16:28

Alright, so what would you

say, was most lore accurate?

326

: 00:16:34

Mark: Most lore accurate.

327

: 00:16:37

I would say probably

Cirdan the Shipwright.

328

: 00:16:40

His portrayal I thought was like, oh, this

is like exactly sort of how I pictured

329

: 00:16:45

Cirdan the Shipwright, who has like a

very brief cameo appearance in the Lord

330

: 00:16:48

of the Rings series, but sort of wise,

and he has this feeling of oldness of all

331

: 00:16:54

the like elves, and sort of almost what I

was looking for more from characters like

332

: 00:16:59

Elrond and Galadriel, and he seems to be

like the sort of one he's playing though

333

: 00:17:04

wise, and like you get the idea that

this person is ancient sort of figure,

334

: 00:17:08

rather than Galadriel and Elrond who

sometimes feel like impetuous teenagers.

335

: 00:17:11

So yeah, I guess that would be

my favorite part of, I thought

336

: 00:17:15

was more, most lore accurate.

337

: 00:17:16

Philip: yeah.

338

: 00:17:17

Okay.

339

: 00:17:18

Mark: you?

340

: 00:17:18

Yeah.

341

: 00:17:23

Philip: for me, I think, I think that

too, like, I, like Cirdan seemed to be

342

: 00:17:29

the most lore accurate, just being the

older elf, you know, the oldest elf

343

: 00:17:34

and all, Other than that, I, I couldn't

really say about the other parts, but.

344

: 00:17:38

Yeah

345

: 00:17:39

Mark: I was wondering, it might be

helpful, since we're like reviewing

346

: 00:17:42

all three episodes, if we just

do like a really quick breakdown

347

: 00:17:45

of each of the major storylines.

348

: 00:17:47

So, if we have like Isildur and his

new girlfriend in the Southlands

349

: 00:17:52

and escaping Mordor, then we have

like Halbrand who goes to Adar

350

: 00:17:56

and sort of the Adar storyline.

351

: 00:17:58

Then he goes to Celebrimbor and we

have like Celebrimbor storyline,

352

: 00:18:01

and then we have what's happening

in Moria and the Dwarves storyline.

353

: 00:18:05

Then we have the Elrond,

Galadriel, and Gil-Galad storyline.

354

: 00:18:10

Then we have the Numenor storyline,

which is in like episode, just episode 3.

355

: 00:18:14

And then we have the Hobbits

and the Stranger storyline.

356

: 00:18:18

And I thought it would be like sort

of fun to talk about those storylines

357

: 00:18:21

individually, because in a lot

of parts, especially the Stranger

358

: 00:18:23

and the Hobbits, they seem like

they're just totally disconnected.

359

: 00:18:26

I don't know if you feel that way as well.

360

: 00:18:28

So maybe we can talk about where the

three episodes have gone with the

361

: 00:18:31

hobbits and the stranger and how you

feel that will connect with everything

362

: 00:18:35

or I mean to be honest part of me

wonders if they should even just like

363

: 00:18:38

cut that whole storyline I mean like to

me it's like oh, they're just throwing

364

: 00:18:42

in the hobbits and the wizard because

they're like recognizable ip, right?

365

: 00:18:45

But they're not playing a

larger part in the story.

366

: 00:18:47

It seems like at this point and

yeah, it's interesting because it's

367

: 00:18:51

something that we have like some

of the most Lord of the Rings isms.

368

: 00:18:55

Like the things the Stranger says

and the Hobbit say is like, Oh,

369

: 00:18:57

this feels very Lord of the Ringsy.

370

: 00:18:59

But at the same time, it's

not playing a larger purpose.

371

: 00:19:02

I don't know.

372

: 00:19:03

Philip: Yeah I I definitely...

373

: 00:19:07

I mean, sticking more to just,

what, first I thought the episodes

374

: 00:19:12

also got, like, a little more

interesting as they went along.

375

: 00:19:15

Honestly, because, part of

that was because I thought the

376

: 00:19:19

harfoots and the wizard and that

storyline was not as interesting.

377

: 00:19:26

And, it kind of seemed, I mean, maybe

it's an odd comparison, but, like, I

378

: 00:19:32

don't know if you ever watched Dune, but

like, it felt like a part out of Dune,

379

: 00:19:36

for like, when they're going across

the desert in the, I guess, would that

380

: 00:19:40

be the Haradrim or the, Easterlings

381

: 00:19:43

coming around, but,

382

: 00:19:44

Mark: there in the Easterlings land.

383

: 00:19:47

Rune, I believe, is in the north, so

it's part of the Easterlings, I think.

384

: 00:19:51

But yeah, I think it's also interesting

that they have this other wizard.

385

: 00:19:53

Okay, and here was the other thing

is they had that like, the white lady

386

: 00:19:56

from the first season sort of like

reappears through the butterflies.

387

: 00:20:01

And I was like, oh, this

is like kind of cool magic.

388

: 00:20:03

Actually, I feel like how Sauron

should have like reappeared, right?

389

: 00:20:06

Is that he's like this spirit that goes

around and like is looking for a new form.

390

: 00:20:10

But also like, who are these people?

391

: 00:20:12

How do they have this much magical power?

392

: 00:20:13

And like, this is sort

of the point, right?

393

: 00:20:14

It felt like.

394

: 00:20:15

Magical powers are like, associated

with things like age and connection to

395

: 00:20:19

Valar and the Valinor, and these people

seem to just sort of be like, Oh, it's

396

: 00:20:24

like, we're just thrown in the lore.

397

: 00:20:26

And there seems to be a wizard with them.

398

: 00:20:28

So I guess they do have an Istar.

399

: 00:20:29

But, yeah.

400

: 00:20:31

Do you think that the, the character of

the dark wizard is going to be Saruman,

401

: 00:20:36

or do you think he's going

to be some like, blue wizard

402

: 00:20:38

character we've never heard of?

403

: 00:20:39

And did anything about the first

three episodes, like, make you

404

: 00:20:42

think differently about, like,

is this character Gandalf or not?

405

: 00:20:45

Philip: Yeah, it's

406

: 00:20:45

interesting.

407

: 00:20:46

Yeah.

408

: 00:20:47

I honestly still had a pretty

strong I guess like conviction

409

: 00:20:52

that the stranger would be Gandalf.

410

: 00:20:55

And I don't know about the other guy.

411

: 00:20:58

I didn't really have any idea behind

him, but I know Also like, conversing

412

: 00:21:05

with a guy online about it, he was

arguing that they would be blue

413

: 00:21:10

wizards because the Tolkien estate

was pretty, I guess, specific recently

414

: 00:21:15

about the way that Amazon could,

could take like the story and all.

415

: 00:21:22

So like they, so in a sense like

they have to use blue wizards.

416

: 00:21:26

Because, this is, becasue this is like

that kind of time period, I guess.

417

: 00:21:31

Mark: Yeah.

418

: 00:21:32

Philip: But

419

: 00:21:33

Mark: They're

420

: 00:21:33

putting their foot down

with the lore, that's

421

: 00:21:35

Philip: Yeah.

422

: 00:21:36

So, if you think of it from that sense,

like, okay, like, makes sense that they'd

423

: 00:21:40

be blue wizards, but they're having, like,

a wizard act like Gandalf so many times,

424

: 00:21:46

you kind of kind of wonder, like, okay.

425

: 00:21:49

Mark: Gandalf is the

recognizable name, right?

426

: 00:21:52

So I think Amazon has an incentive

to just throw in Gandalf, regardless.

427

: 00:21:56

but, yeah.

428

: 00:21:57

I think, I think it will

be very interesting.

429

: 00:21:59

I don't think the bad guy

is going to be Saruman.

430

: 00:22:01

It seems like it's still too early.

431

: 00:22:02

He looks a lot like Saruman, but

I'm guessing the bad guy will be a

432

: 00:22:05

blue wizard, but the good guy, the

stranger, will still be Gandalf.

433

: 00:22:09

Again, I'm not like a huge fan of the

character's like storyline, in terms of

434

: 00:22:13

like, oh, Gandalf starts out as like, sort

of as a child who like needs help, which

435

: 00:22:19

is like sort of accurate to the lore.

436

: 00:22:22

But at the same time, it's like, he, that

he's always afraid that his power is going

437

: 00:22:25

to hurt people is maybe not something

that I feel like is very lore accurate.

438

: 00:22:31

And that I think the show will

be about him, like learning to

439

: 00:22:35

like respect life or something.

440

: 00:22:38

I, and not to be like afraid of

his own power, but to be like

441

: 00:22:40

confident and the show will show

him like mastering his own power.

442

: 00:22:43

I feel like that's not

really lore accurate.

443

: 00:22:46

Philip: What kind of goes to if

you think about the first season

444

: 00:22:50

and how he showed up, right?

445

: 00:22:52

I mean, he shows up from like a

meteorite and then, you know, kind

446

: 00:22:58

of slowly gets his strength and

almost like he's a child, right?

447

: 00:23:03

Whereas, like, the way they

actually show up on Middle-earth

448

: 00:23:07

is very different, right?

449

: 00:23:08

They, like, they show up very, like,

knowledgeable of why they're there.

450

: 00:23:12

You know, and they come across in

like ships or something, and yeah.

451

: 00:23:16

Mark: So I believe there's like one line

in Tolkien that he's like, and sometimes

452

: 00:23:20

they like, they had the spirit of

children and they had to learn everything

453

: 00:23:25

again, like languages and stuff.

454

: 00:23:27

And this show like really

ran with that one line.

455

: 00:23:29

Right.

456

: 00:23:30

But at the same time, like

you said last season, like

457

: 00:23:32

they knew their purpose there.

458

: 00:23:33

And like this idea that they can't

control their power, that their power is

459

: 00:23:36

something like alien or foreign to them.

460

: 00:23:38

Yeah.

461

: 00:23:38

is like, not very Tolkien

esque, I think, even.

462

: 00:23:43

That like, there's never a case where

someone can't control their own power.

463

: 00:23:47

I don't know.

464

: 00:23:47

That was sort of very strange to me.

465

: 00:23:49

Philip: You like get into these

situations, and you're like,

466

: 00:23:52

Alright man, here's the time to

shine, use your power for good.

467

: 00:23:59

And yet, you know, I mean, he still takes

out the Easterlings with a huge tornado

468

: 00:24:06

Mark: Tornado or whatever.

469

: 00:24:07

Philip: But but it's you

know cool in and of itself.

470

: 00:24:10

But yeah, it would then again, I

can kind of see where they're trying

471

: 00:24:15

to build up his character because

it's like a season and maybe by the

472

: 00:24:20

end of the season he's able to to

harness it a little bit better but

473

: 00:24:25

Mark: Yeah.

474

: 00:24:26

I was the, like, of all the storylines,

that was sort of my least favorite.

475

: 00:24:29

And I was just like, oh, even though

they're trying to like, evoke Frodo

476

: 00:24:33

and Sam, going across Mordor, it

was like, it didn't really feel

477

: 00:24:37

Philip: Right, oh, yeah, no, no

478

: 00:24:40

Mark: What do you, do you think of the,

Isildur storyline in terms of, so Isildur

479

: 00:24:44

starts out in Mordor and he escapes and

he goes to the spiders, I believe, and

480

: 00:24:50

then he finds the girl and then he finds,

Arondir and then he goes to like the city

481

: 00:24:54

and that's sort of where we left him last.

482

: 00:24:56

Philip: Right.

483

: 00:24:57

Yeah, I mean With Elendil and

Isildur, they're really trying

484

: 00:25:01

to pull hard the horse and,

and, you know, man relationship.

485

: 00:25:08

Because, it's like, it's basically,

they set it up for, What happens

486

: 00:25:13

to Aragorn in the movie in The Two

Towers, Brego comes back and finds

487

: 00:25:17

Aragorn and what happens in in

488

: 00:25:21

Mark: But this time the horse like

kills, straight up kills two orcs.

489

: 00:25:25

At first I was like, is this like a

horse is going to kill every single orc?

490

: 00:25:28

It's going to be like, this horse is like

the greatest warrior on the battlefield.

491

: 00:25:31

Like we're just going to send

him against Sauron, you know?

492

: 00:25:34

Philip: Yeah.

493

: 00:25:35

Mark: was so funny when he just

instantly like takes out two orcs.

494

: 00:25:37

I was dying.

495

: 00:25:38

Oh my goodness.

496

: 00:25:39

Philip: Oh Man!

497

: 00:25:40

Mark: But if I was like took it they took

like that sort of like that very like

498

: 00:25:43

oh there's like two scenes of like this

horse and animal connection horse human

499

: 00:25:47

connection and they like dialed it up to

11 in this show where they're like Oh a

500

: 00:25:51

soldier like him or like best buddies like

a soldier treats him like his best friend

501

: 00:25:55

he's like I'm not gonna leave him behind.

502

: 00:25:57

I don't know I thought that was a

little bit like a little bit too

503

: 00:25:59

much in my opinion But I guess it

did evoke themes of the first show.

504

: 00:26:03

What did you think of the spider cave?

505

: 00:26:05

Philip: I thought it was neat.

506

: 00:26:06

I wasn't sure exactly like where

they were locating that because.

507

: 00:26:12

And, then again, I guess, if you're

thinking about, like, Shelob or

508

: 00:26:16

even, uh, Ungoliant, which is

the older spider, I don't, she

509

: 00:26:21

probably isn't around at this time.

510

: 00:26:24

or if she is, she's, like, away.

511

: 00:26:26

Mark: Yeah, it's unclear In

Tolkien's lore, if Ungoliant dies

512

: 00:26:29

at some point, but Shelob would

be alive during the second age.

513

: 00:26:32

And it sort of is like where she would

be at, Cirth, The Pass of Cirith Ungol.

514

: 00:26:36

It's sort of at least close to it.

515

: 00:26:38

Yeah!

516

: 00:26:38

And interestingly enough, Shelob

actually, it's her offspring that

517

: 00:26:41

populate the Mirkwood Forest.

518

: 00:26:43

So Shelob does have spider

children, as disturbing as that is.

519

: 00:26:47

I do not like spiders, so.

520

: 00:26:50

But yeah, I was not a huge fan of.

521

: 00:26:52

I mean, the, the scene freaked

me out, which I think it

522

: 00:26:54

was sort of supposed to do.

523

: 00:26:56

And I will say, I mean, there

were a lot of spiders in there.

524

: 00:26:58

It seems like some of them

should have eaten him.

525

: 00:27:00

But I guess it gave some fun jumpscares

and it was like a fun easter egg

526

: 00:27:03

that like, oh yeah, Shelob and her

lair would be around this area.

527

: 00:27:07

Philip: I don't I don't know the biggest,

I didn't really see a big spider.

528

: 00:27:11

As big as, like shelob is in that scene,

so I was kind of thinking, like, maybe

529

: 00:27:18

she wasn't there at, in that scene, but.

530

: 00:27:21

Mark: Maybe it was like one of Shelob's

offspring already, or that like

531

: 00:27:25

they're playing like a baby Shelob.

532

: 00:27:26

Like Shelob is like much younger

and therefore much smaller at

533

: 00:27:29

this point, which I think that

monster spiders are full grown

534

: 00:27:33

when they're born, but yeah, but

535

: 00:27:34

Philip: you know, that's, it was, it

was a neat scene, though, connecting

536

: 00:27:38

it to the movie, of course, but yeah.

537

: 00:27:42

Mark: Yeah, what I was gonna say, like,

isildur runs into the, like, wagon and

538

: 00:27:47

the girl, right, and the bad guys bust out

of the wagon, and then Arondir takes out

539

: 00:27:50

all the bad guys and they go to the city.

540

: 00:27:52

We find out that, like, Bronwyn has died

between seasons, by a poisoned orc arrow.

541

: 00:27:57

And yeah, it seems that there will

be this, like, playoff between Theo

542

: 00:28:00

and Arondir because Theo doesn't feel

like he has any connection to Arondir

543

: 00:28:05

and Arondir wants to connect with

Theo, and Theo connects with Isildur,

544

: 00:28:09

which is, like, really interesting.

545

: 00:28:11

And I guess this part of the show

is, like, you know, it's not super,

546

: 00:28:15

like, there's nothing in the lore

about this, but the idea that, like,

547

: 00:28:17

Isildur had a bunch of adventures

is, like, totally believable.

548

: 00:28:21

and you saw, see some of his sort of

character traits coming out, I think.

549

: 00:28:24

That he's both, like, kind and

compassionate, but also, like, very

550

: 00:28:28

driven and has some of his own demons

in terms of, you know, he caused his

551

: 00:28:31

mother's death, that this will lead him

to do something, try to do something

552

: 00:28:34

great, and that he'll be unable to resist

the power of The One Ring later on.

553

: 00:28:39

But yeah, so I think, for me, I was

like, oh, this is, like, fine, I guess.

554

: 00:28:43

I don't know.

555

: 00:28:44

I don't have anything for or against it.

556

: 00:28:45

It's, like, pretty, pretty,

good and pretty interesting.

557

: 00:28:48

It wasn't, like, something I

was dying to see, but at the

558

: 00:28:50

same time, it seemed pretty fun.

559

: 00:28:51

So,

560

: 00:28:51

Philip: Mm hmm.

561

: 00:28:52

I think they did good with that storyline.

562

: 00:28:54

and the way they still like brought up

the, who, like, what would you call them?

563

: 00:28:59

Kind of like the outlaw, Southlanders.

564

: 00:29:03

Who kind of make a jump on them and all.

565

: 00:29:05

Mark: Who have sworn

allegiance to Adar yeah.

566

: 00:29:07

Philip: Right.

567

: 00:29:08

To Adar.

568

: 00:29:09

I think that Arondir is cool in the sense

that you can tell that he's got, like,

569

: 00:29:16

he's, he's more than just a man, right.

570

: 00:29:19

They give him, like, the

abilities of more than just a man.

571

: 00:29:21

He's like Legolas in a lot of ways, right?

572

: 00:29:24

You know, you got Legolas

doing all the acrobats and,

573

: 00:29:27

Mark: Galadriel always sort of seemed

like just another, like a human woman

574

: 00:29:31

jumping around and fighting, but Arondir

always had this like, mysteriousness

575

: 00:29:34

to him that sort of made you feel

like he was a real elf in the show.

576

: 00:29:37

Yeah.

577

: 00:29:37

And the actor, I think I would

credit the actor with that.

578

: 00:29:40

There's no like, scene

or anything like that.

579

: 00:29:42

Just sort of the way he plays

the role is excellent, I think.

580

: 00:29:45

Philip: So that, so that, area

of the story I, I find pretty

581

: 00:29:51

interesting, with Numenor as well.

582

: 00:29:54

Mark: Yeah, do you want

to touch on Numenor next?

583

: 00:29:55

That's like the most recent episode.

584

: 00:29:57

Philip: We don't have to

touch on Numenor next.

585

: 00:29:59

We can, we can just move through,

move through the different episodes

586

: 00:30:03

kind of more chronologically.

587

: 00:30:05

But,

588

: 00:30:06

Mark: I know that the third

episode focuses mostly on Numenor.

589

: 00:30:09

That's where we get all the Numenor

stuff was in the last episode.

590

: 00:30:12

as well as some of the, like, the,

Moria stuff was in episode three.

591

: 00:30:17

But I remember, I'm sort of having

trouble remembering where the

592

: 00:30:20

Philip: yeah.

593

: 00:30:21

'Well, let's, let's, let's look at, like.

594

: 00:30:24

So, Halbran goes, like, back to Adar,

kind of as, like, a chained up, like,

595

: 00:30:31

I will, like, serve you, you know, I

will serve the Lord of Mordor, which

596

: 00:30:35

is interesting, because it says I will

serve the Lord of Mordor, which, you

597

: 00:30:39

know, That's not, is that really Adar?

598

: 00:30:43

Mark: Yeah.

599

: 00:30:44

Philip: That's, that's

something I caught anyways.

600

: 00:30:49

Mark: He also wasn't branded,

which is kind of interesting.

601

: 00:30:51

Granted that brand wouldn't have

any effect on him, but yeah,

602

: 00:30:54

that was sort of interesting.

603

: 00:30:56

Um, I did, I did sort of like that,

like, we saw, that we know that Sauron

604

: 00:31:01

is Halbrand in this, makes it like, oh,

we know who the antagonist is, and we

605

: 00:31:06

know, like, that he's manipulating people.

606

: 00:31:09

I think that makes it way better

that we're not just like, oh, who

607

: 00:31:11

is this random guy in the show

that they just sort of threw in

608

: 00:31:14

as, like, the discount Aragorn.

609

: 00:31:16

It's like, oh, we see how

he's manipulating Adar.

610

: 00:31:19

and it's actually like, kind

of, kind of clever, right?

611

: 00:31:22

That like, he is very conniving and

sinister, and he like, magics the wolf

612

: 00:31:27

to like, kill the guy or whatever.

613

: 00:31:29

So I sort of like that part.

614

: 00:31:31

I, I find the Adar part very interesting

in terms of like, if there's another

615

: 00:31:35

competing guy for, Sauron's, Sauron's

title is like the leader of the orcs,

616

: 00:31:40

and that he has a sort of different

approach of, I mean, still very evil guy

617

: 00:31:45

clearly from the show, but that he, is

sort of like the brotherhood of orcs that

618

: 00:31:49

are gonna like set up their own lands.

619

: 00:31:51

But yeah.

620

: 00:31:52

Then he goes to, the city,

I'm just blanking on it right

621

: 00:31:56

Philip: Not Eregion?

622

: 00:31:56

Yeah.

623

: 00:31:57

Is it Eregion your talking

about Halbrand going to Eregion?

624

: 00:31:59

Right?

625

: 00:32:00

Mark: He goes to Eregion,

626

: 00:32:00

Yeah.

627

: 00:32:01

Philip: That was interesting.

628

: 00:32:02

So.

629

: 00:32:03

I, I just thought it was odd with how

he came back to, I mean, okay, so him

630

: 00:32:11

telling Adar, like, hey, like, I'll like,

you know, I'll come and like influence

631

: 00:32:16

them in a certain, like the enemy in a

certain way, you know, to, so I can, so,

632

: 00:32:21

yeah, yeah, so I can find Sauron for you.

633

: 00:32:23

I was like, okay, like, I guess

that's fine, you know, I was like,

634

: 00:32:26

all right, yeah, that's fine, but it's

like, to me, I think, because this

635

: 00:32:28

is kind of something that you brought

up before, too, is like, all right.

636

: 00:32:32

Why didn't he, like, come

into Eregion as an elf?

637

: 00:32:37

Why did he en like, why did

he enter the gates as a human?

638

: 00:32:42

I feel like he could have changed before

he got there, and then it would have

639

: 00:32:46

been really more, like, convincing,

like, Hey, I'm this, like, elf,

640

: 00:32:50

like, good at smithing or whatever.

641

: 00:32:53

I can like, help you out

with like x, y, and z.

642

: 00:32:56

I heard something about like these

magical rings and Celebrimbor

643

: 00:33:01

would be like, oh yeah.

644

: 00:33:02

That would have seemed to me to be

more like, kind of like, convincing.

645

: 00:33:05

But I mean,

646

: 00:33:07

it was just interesting too how

they like were able to still kind

647

: 00:33:10

of like make it work, I guess.

648

: 00:33:13

Mark: So I think there's like, one

thing I think that sort of everyone

649

: 00:33:15

has said, at least in terms of people

who like, love the lore, is that

650

: 00:33:18

like, switching up the order of the

Rings has not worked out for the show.

651

: 00:33:22

That they made the three Elven Rings

first, it makes everything so confusing

652

: 00:33:26

now that like, Oh, the elves are

fighting over these rings, but like now

653

: 00:33:29

Halbrand's coming back to make more rings.

654

: 00:33:31

Right?

655

: 00:33:31

Like, why, why, why aren't they

making rings without him and stuff?

656

: 00:33:34

I think that has sort of been a

big problem for the show, but.

657

: 00:33:38

Philip: They probably couldn't have

changed up the lore in some way, maybe.

658

: 00:33:44

For him, in, like, I don't know.

659

: 00:33:47

With like, how he, like, the order of

things and how he, like, if he would have

660

: 00:33:50

stayed after making the rings and all.

661

: 00:33:53

Yeah.

662

: 00:33:54

Mark: They wanted to make like

the big Sauron reveal, right?

663

: 00:33:57

And therefore that was

like sort of what they did.

664

: 00:33:59

And I was like, oh, they're

gonna make the Elvin rings.

665

: 00:34:01

But, like, they could have done it

very, like, according to the lore,

666

: 00:34:04

which I think would have been more

clean and, like, taken less time.

667

: 00:34:07

So I think that is, like, what they're

sort of struggling with in this show,

668

: 00:34:10

is, like, right, sort of, to your

point, like, oh, if he shows up as

669

: 00:34:12

an elf, and it's like, I heard you

guys got something in the rings,

670

: 00:34:14

it's like, okay, that's suspicious.

671

: 00:34:16

But I think the other thing I was going to

point out is, like, the evil serendipity,

672

: 00:34:19

right, the, the evil luck that Sauron

has, that he shows up at the gates, and,

673

: 00:34:23

like, And they don't just send him away.

674

: 00:34:24

They, like, make him wait out there.

675

: 00:34:26

And he has to wait to get a chance, and

it just so happens that it's raining

676

: 00:34:28

one day, and the guy comes out to, like,

talk to him, and he just so happens to

677

: 00:34:32

catch a word, and then he's so happy.

678

: 00:34:33

Like, I don't know.

679

: 00:34:34

It's, it's a lot of these, like,

very coincidences that you're like,

680

: 00:34:37

oh, that seems like Sauron would be

somebody who's very conniving and plays

681

: 00:34:40

people off against each other, but

also doesn't leave things to chance,

682

: 00:34:44

and that it's good, which sort of is

relying on the luck to, to win the day.

683

: 00:34:49

But yeah, I did like how he sort

of manipulated Celebrimbor in

684

: 00:34:52

terms of like using the fact that

he feels like he's not respected

685

: 00:34:56

and that he hasn't heard anything.

686

: 00:34:58

I thought the the working between

Celebrimbor and Sauron aka Halbrand

687

: 00:35:05

aka Annatar has been very good

actually in the show so far.

688

: 00:35:09

That's one of the things

about that storyline

689

: 00:35:11

I really like.

690

: 00:35:11

What are your feelings on

that part of the story?

691

: 00:35:14

Going forward into even like the

later episodes after he convinces

692

: 00:35:17

Celebrimbor to join him or to

like start working with him.

693

: 00:35:21

Philip: I think it was, I

think it was pretty good.

694

: 00:35:23

Like, the way, the way that

Halbrand, like, revealed himself,

695

: 00:35:28

I thought was pretty unique.

696

: 00:35:29

He was, like, he, like, all of

a sudden, like, disappeared.

697

: 00:35:32

so a little more magical, you

know, in a sense there too.

698

: 00:35:35

So then he comes, then he like, shows

like, Hey, this is who I really am,

699

: 00:35:39

this elf guy, Annatar, you know.

700

: 00:35:41

He's like, oh, giver of gifts, or the

Lord of Gifts, I guess it would be.

701

: 00:35:44

Mark: It was interesting because I

think he played it off as like, Oh,

702

: 00:35:47

I'm just like a humble giver of gifts.

703

: 00:35:48

And then the guy's like, Oh no,

you're the Lord of gifts, right?

704

: 00:35:51

Annatar means Lord of gifts.

705

: 00:35:53

But it's very interesting, right?

706

: 00:35:54

That he tries to, it's a

way of portraying himself.

707

: 00:35:57

Humility while really like

communicating his power.

708

: 00:36:00

The other thing I was going to say about

that scene was like, Oh, this is how

709

: 00:36:03

they should have portrayed like, Yeah.

710

: 00:36:04

Like the way Annatar comes in and

it's all magical and you're even like

711

: 00:36:08

transported to a different place, right?

712

: 00:36:09

Where there's clouds and stuff.

713

: 00:36:11

I was like, oh, this is the

kind of magic in the show.

714

: 00:36:13

Not that it should all be like magical

clouds, but it's Annatar appearing as

715

: 00:36:16

like this, angelic, majestic being.

716

: 00:36:20

Which is like Sauron

portraying himself as light.

717

: 00:36:22

It's like, oh, this should have been

more like how we saw Galadriel portrayed.

718

: 00:36:26

And even characters like Gil-Galad

portrayed and how Sauron has

719

: 00:36:29

portrayed himself earlier as

like a dark version of that.

720

: 00:36:32

Rather than just sort of, uh,

dark veins around the, the

721

: 00:36:35

eyes is like however they get.

722

: 00:36:37

Um,

723

: 00:36:38

Philip: Yeah.

724

: 00:36:39

So more about how he's

acting than how he looks,

725

: 00:36:42

is that what you're

726

: 00:36:42

Yeah, Or,

727

: 00:36:43

Mark: and that it feels

otherworldly, right?

728

: 00:36:45

That was sort of maybe my, the one

thing I was trying to say about the,

729

: 00:36:49

like, the first episode is that, like,

the very first scene of the first

730

: 00:36:52

episode where Sauron is being, talking

to the orcs, he feels like he's just

731

: 00:36:55

some dude making a speech, right?

732

: 00:36:57

And he should appear otherworldly

because he is otherworldly.

733

: 00:37:00

And then that was sort of, I felt like how

they were able to nail that with Annatar.

734

: 00:37:04

Philip: All right.

735

: 00:37:04

but

736

: 00:37:05

yeah.

737

: 00:37:06

Yeah.

738

: 00:37:06

Coming in through the fire and all and

739

: 00:37:08

Mark: Yeah,

740

: 00:37:08

I thought it was really cool!

741

: 00:37:09

Philip: It

742

: 00:37:09

Mark: was good.

743

: 00:37:10

Yeah Do we want to move next, like,

the dwarf scenes and how they are,

744

: 00:37:13

like, tying in with the Halbrand,

Sauron, and Celebrimbor storyline?

745

: 00:37:17

What the

746

: 00:37:18

Philip: next thing that

I was thinking about.

747

: 00:37:20

I thought they were interesting.

748

: 00:37:21

I think that it's typical of the, of the

dwarves to be very skeptical and, kind

749

: 00:37:28

of like, you know, well, not so willing

just to like take on, Some offer, which

750

: 00:37:33

I think Durin, the younger, younger

Durin is very much that way, even.

751

: 00:37:38

And I mean, I guess that's the difference

between him and his father, because he's

752

: 00:37:41

like, well, I don't know if my father's

going to take up this, but his father's

753

: 00:37:44

like, oh yeah, like we'll take the rings.

754

: 00:37:46

So anyways, but it's also interesting too,

because you don't, you just don't see a

755

: 00:37:53

lot of, you know, interactions between

dwarves and elves in Lord of the Rings.

756

: 00:38:00

So, like, so it's neat to

see, like, that interaction of

757

: 00:38:03

them coming through Eregion.

758

: 00:38:05

And it's like, hey, Lord of the

Rings is like, like the Middle-earth

759

: 00:38:08

map, it's like, it's bigger than

just, than just, like, small people

760

: 00:38:12

in this place and in this place.

761

: 00:38:14

It's like, know, people over here

know about, like, the people that

762

: 00:38:18

are over there, and they still

interact, even though they're like,

763

: 00:38:20

seem like they're a far way away.

764

: 00:38:22

but yeah.

765

: 00:38:23

Mark: I think, as well, you see that,

like, the dwarves were never, like, Sauron

766

: 00:38:27

was never able to control the dwarves

because they're so mistrusting that

767

: 00:38:32

whether he appears, like, intimidating,

they just resist him, or if he appears,

768

: 00:38:36

like, right, if it smells too good,

the dwarves are, like, suspicious.

769

: 00:38:39

And I thought it was really clever

that, you know, Sauron says, like,

770

: 00:38:42

Oh, Elrond says you're like the

wisest of all dwarves, and Durin

771

: 00:38:45

was like, Elrond would never say

that about me, or whatever, right?

772

: 00:38:47

It's like, the idea that like, no

dwarves are ever described as wise,

773

: 00:38:51

is like, they're, they're like

naturally suspicious, but at the

774

: 00:38:53

same time that they're desperate.

775

: 00:38:55

Again, I think you see the, the theme

of evil luck playing in that like, oh,

776

: 00:38:59

this darkness has struck the mountain,

and it's not really clear if that's

777

: 00:39:01

Sauron controlling that, or the Balrog,

or what that is, but it's like making

778

: 00:39:05

the dwarves like desperate, right?

779

: 00:39:07

The other interesting thing, and this will

like tie in with the future episodes, but

780

: 00:39:11

the dwarves believe that the chief dwarf

ring that's given to the high, the High

781

: 00:39:15

King of the dwarves, Durin, not the High

King, that's not his name, but the Durin

782

: 00:39:19

Philip: Yeah

783

: 00:39:20

Mark: the King of Moria, is

actually not tainted by Sauron

784

: 00:39:24

and therefore is like sort of like

the Elvin rings in that respect.

785

: 00:39:27

And it seems like the show will

definitely play a different tact where

786

: 00:39:30

that ring is definitely corrupted by

Saron and he's using it control people.

787

: 00:39:35

Philip: Really?

788

: 00:39:35

So you're so that ring actually

wasn't corru that ring wasn't

789

: 00:39:40

corrupted by Sauron either.

790

: 00:39:42

Mark: That's what the dwarves believe.

791

: 00:39:44

and it's unclear if that's actually true.

792

: 00:39:46

The dwarf, like, he's the

guy who gets it, is killed.

793

: 00:39:49

And actually, that dwarf isn't,

that ring is in the hand of Sauron.

794

: 00:39:52

Because Gandalf finds it whenever he's in,

the, the place he's in during the Hobbit.

795

: 00:39:57

I forget the name of it.

796

: 00:39:58

Philip: Yeah.

797

: 00:39:58

The Misty Mountains?

798

: 00:40:00

Mark: No, it's the, like, the

fortress of the bad guy, and it's.

799

: 00:40:05

No, It's, he's a side

800

: 00:40:06

Philip: Dul Dol Guldur?

801

: 00:40:08

Mark: Yeah, Dol Guldur yeah, he goes to

Dol Guldur and that's actually, whenever

802

: 00:40:11

in The Hobbit they find him, and it's

like old Durin, but he's actually the

803

: 00:40:16

one who had, had the ring, and the

books he finds him dead, and Sauron

804

: 00:40:21

has already taken the ring from him.

805

: 00:40:23

But yeah, so I think it was interesting.

806

: 00:40:25

I also sort of liked the, like, oh,

the dwarves rely on the sunlight

807

: 00:40:28

to, like, keep their plants alive.

808

: 00:40:31

And I liked the interplay between Disa

and Durin, the son and the father.

809

: 00:40:37

I think all around the dwarf storyline

has been a really good one and a really

810

: 00:40:40

solid one that I've really liked.

811

: 00:40:41

Yeah.

812

: 00:40:42

The one thing I was going to point out

is that Durin, his hands are all soft.

813

: 00:40:47

Whereas he beat Elrond in like that rock

pounding competition in the first season.

814

: 00:40:51

You remember whenever Elrond

shows up at, yeah, right?

815

: 00:40:53

And then all of a sudden

they're portraying him as

816

: 00:40:55

like this soft prince, right?

817

: 00:40:56

And it was like, oh, he was like

this tough guy in the first season

818

: 00:40:58

and now he's like this weakling.

819

: 00:41:00

So that was sort of like, oh,

seems like they want to just

820

: 00:41:03

portray him a little bit of a

821

: 00:41:04

Philip: was

822

: 00:41:04

Mark: way now.

823

: 00:41:05

Philip: What was the scene

where he was portrayed weak?

824

: 00:41:08

Mark: Right, because he's trying to

hack at the rocks, right, as his job

825

: 00:41:11

now because he's no longer prince.

826

: 00:41:13

And they're portraying that he has,

like, these, like, sores on his hand and

827

: 00:41:17

stuff

828

: 00:41:17

Philip: yeah, right.

829

: 00:41:18

Mark: But yeah, I think all around

I think I've liked the interplay

830

: 00:41:21

of those characters and the way the

different Durins interact I think

831

: 00:41:23

has been really great as well.

832

: 00:41:26

Any other comments on

the, Moria storyline?

833

: 00:41:29

Philip: Well, I thought it

was Yeah, I thought the mirror

834

: 00:41:31

things were interesting.

835

: 00:41:33

Mark: And actually lore accurate that

they're like these shafts of light that

836

: 00:41:37

the dwarves use to bring down into Moria.

837

: 00:41:40

Philip: Okay.

838

: 00:41:41

Kind of like what you see in

The Fellowship of the Ring.

839

: 00:41:43

Mark: Yeah, actually, yea.

840

: 00:41:44

Philip: Okay yeah.

841

: 00:41:45

I thought it was interesting when I

don't remember how far forward this

842

: 00:41:49

one jumped, but Disa is trying to sing

to bring the mirrors back, shafts, and

843

: 00:41:56

just kind of like corrupts everything.

844

: 00:41:57

I don't really, I don't really get

the point of her singing, I guess?

845

: 00:42:04

But, maybe there's more

to that that I'm missing.

846

: 00:42:07

Mark: Well, it seems like it's the

way they're trying to portray like

847

: 00:42:10

dwarf magic, that like this is their

connection to the mountain, the

848

: 00:42:13

connection to the earth, and that

through it that they listen to the

849

: 00:42:16

earth and it tells them where to dig.

850

: 00:42:18

yeah, I think it's interesting

that they're like, losing their

851

: 00:42:20

magic and I think I liked it just

because I think the show needed

852

: 00:42:23

more magic to make Middle-earth

feel like a place that's magical.

853

: 00:42:28

but I think you're right that it's

sort of like a little strange and then

854

: 00:42:31

like why is it gone now and it's to

me it's unclear what the darkness is

855

: 00:42:35

and why it's affecting the mountain.

856

: 00:42:37

if it's like Sauron who's just like

because he's back it's just bad

857

: 00:42:41

things are happening who knows.

858

: 00:42:43

We were talking a little bit about the,

like, the Three Rings and Galadriel and

859

: 00:42:46

Gil-Galad and Elrond and Celebrimbor,

er, Cele, sorry, um, Cer Cirdan already.

860

: 00:42:52

I wasn't sure if you had anything

more to say on those storylines.

861

: 00:42:55

It ended with Elrond's gonna

lead the party that's going to

862

: 00:42:58

go to Celebrimbor in Eregion.

863

: 00:43:00

I will also say that, like, again, like,

the messengers got killed and were sort

864

: 00:43:05

of, like, unclear, did Sauron plan that?

865

: 00:43:07

I don't know.

866

: 00:43:07

Because if they hadn't and

they'd made it there, it seems

867

: 00:43:09

like he would have been toast.

868

: 00:43:11

yeah.

869

: 00:43:12

That seemed like that was a little

870

: 00:43:14

Philip: Yeah, it was a little,

didn't really show much about that.

871

: 00:43:17

One scene, they show like hey,

here's this, bring it to bring

872

: 00:43:21

it to Celebrimbor and the next...

873

: 00:43:23

and then like there's a scene where they

show like, oh the guy's dead and there's

874

: 00:43:26

the scroll inside the little, uh little

875

: 00:43:30

Mark: Undelivered yeah

876

: 00:43:31

Philip: Box undelivered.

877

: 00:43:32

Yeah,

878

: 00:43:32

Mark: So absolutely, it seems like they

just, like, were sort of moving past it.

879

: 00:43:36

Yeah.

880

: 00:43:37

Again, sort of that evil luck playing in.

881

: 00:43:39

But I thought the other parts were good.

882

: 00:43:40

I thought the, like, them using the

rings to restore their lands was good.

883

: 00:43:44

Yeah, I generally liked the interplay

of how they're using the three rings

884

: 00:43:49

and the effects they're having.

885

: 00:43:51

Philip: Yeah.

886

: 00:43:53

So like, Elrond, even after like,

they put on the rings and it shows

887

: 00:43:57

that like, they're bringing back

life to the tree is still suspicious.

888

: 00:44:01

Which is interesting because,

what were they talking about?

889

: 00:44:04

Who is it?

890

: 00:44:05

Was it Cirdan who was saying,

well like, these rings may not

891

: 00:44:08

even be like, corrupted by him.

892

: 00:44:11

That's kinda like what he was saying.

893

: 00:44:12

So I don't, so it's almost like,

Elrond's trying to say, like, no,

894

: 00:44:16

they're gonna corrupt us and, like,

there's a tidbit where you think

895

: 00:44:20

that the elves are gonna be, you

know, affected some way by the rings.

896

: 00:44:24

But, with that one scene about,

like, Cirdan you know, being like,

897

: 00:44:29

hey, like, I'm gonna take this ring.

898

: 00:44:31

I've got no problem doing that.

899

: 00:44:33

So, yeah.

900

: 00:44:34

Mark: Seemed like a brig

abrupt switch, right?

901

: 00:44:36

Philip: Yeah!

902

: 00:44:37

Mark: I think the one thing I was going

to say, so I'll just talk a little

903

: 00:44:39

bit about the lore behind the rings,

but generally the first, so the first

904

: 00:44:43

sixteen, the nine for men and seven

for dwarves, were made by Sauron and

905

: 00:44:47

Celebrimbor working together in the books.

906

: 00:44:49

And these are generally that

Sauron corrupted these rings

907

: 00:44:52

by being the one who made them.

908

: 00:44:53

Sauron leaves to go to Mordor to make

the one ring, but while he's gone,

909

: 00:44:57

Celebrimbor and the elves without

Sauron, and after having perfected

910

: 00:45:00

the craft, make the three elven rings.

911

: 00:45:03

And therefore when Sauron

puts on the ring, he has this

912

: 00:45:05

deep control and power over the 16 rings,

but not it's it's not in the books.

913

: 00:45:10

It's sort of not the three elven rings.

914

: 00:45:12

There the elves are afraid that Sauron

will take the three elven rings so they

915

: 00:45:16

hide the rings So they never appear

with them in public after Sauron puts

916

: 00:45:20

on the one ring and they're generally

they're able to appear like they're

917

: 00:45:23

aware of Sauron with the rings.

918

: 00:45:25

There is some connection between the

three elven rings and The One Ring but

919

: 00:45:28

at this point Sauron hasn't even made

The One Ring, and it's pretty clear

920

: 00:45:33

that, yeah, he, there shouldn't be any

sort of, like, darkness inside of the

921

: 00:45:37

rings, and they're sort of trying to,

I think, portray it as, like, sort of

922

: 00:45:39

The One Ring, And I guess like, it's

like, hey, we gotta make things sort of

923

: 00:45:43

like The Lord of the Rings, even though

there's not like a lore reason to...

924

: 00:45:46

We gotta like, oh, we gotta be talking

about why we should use rings, or

925

: 00:45:49

if it's a bad idea to use rings.

926

: 00:45:51

It's a little interesting, I guess, cause

now it's like, oh, the right choice is to

927

: 00:45:55

use the rings to save the Elven lands, as

opposed to like, never use The One Ring.

928

: 00:45:59

Philip: Right.

929

: 00:46:00

So, it'd be interesting to see, Moving

forward when they actually, like,

930

: 00:46:04

encounter, like, Sauron, as they're

wearing the rings, if they're going

931

: 00:46:09

to show it as being more of them being

influenced by him, or if they're, you

932

: 00:46:14

know, if the rings are pure besides him.

933

: 00:46:17

Mark: Yeah.

934

: 00:46:17

That only leaves us with the

Numenor storyline, right?

935

: 00:46:20

Which is the most recent episode

was focused a lot on that storyline.

936

: 00:46:24

Philip: Hmm.

937

: 00:46:25

Yes, I think that it was, there are, there

are a few things that I, that I remember

938

: 00:46:30

from it that were pretty interesting.

939

: 00:46:32

So basically, like, the big

part is that Miriel's being,

940

: 00:46:35

like, crowned, basically, right?

941

: 00:46:37

Because, Tar Palantir died.

942

: 00:46:42

So she being

943

: 00:46:43

Mark: Look at you

remembering all the names.

944

: 00:46:46

Philip: So he being, well

she being his heir, right,

945

: 00:46:49

because isn't she his daughter?

946

: 00:46:52

Mark: She is his daughter.

947

: 00:46:53

Philip: Alright, so she takes, so she's

being crowned, Ar-Pharazon's kind of,

948

: 00:46:59

I don't know, being a little elusive,

you don't really know what he's up to.

949

: 00:47:02

Mark: Sneaky!

950

: 00:47:03

And conniving

951

: 00:47:04

Philip: So, which is probably proper.

952

: 00:47:06

Then, I don't really remember, oh yeah,

it's the whole thing with the Palantir.

953

: 00:47:11

So, they get, they get pretty

into like the Palantir.

954

: 00:47:15

And, it, I guess they don't, I

think basically people weren't

955

: 00:47:20

understanding what the Palantir was

like, was or what it does necessarily.

956

: 00:47:24

They just see this thing, they're

like, oh my gosh, who is she?

957

: 00:47:28

You know, because Well,

it was interesting.

958

: 00:47:31

Was it Elendil's daughter who like brought

it out in the open was like, She was,

959

: 00:47:38

like she had this you know, and that means

that she's not fit to be queen basically.

960

: 00:47:44

Mark: So it's interesting what I was

going to say, like the Numenor storyline.

961

: 00:47:49

So first of all, they send like three,

three tiny ships to Middle-earth.

962

: 00:47:52

Right.

963

: 00:47:53

And they come back and like,

some of them have died, but it's

964

: 00:47:55

somehow how created like this

destabilization of their entire society.

965

: 00:47:59

Because like a few soldiers died

in Middle-earth, whenever they

966

: 00:48:02

went or whatever, and the queen

is described as a warmonger.

967

: 00:48:05

I don't know.

968

: 00:48:05

It was just really funny.

969

: 00:48:06

Like.

970

: 00:48:06

After seeing this, like, massive island,

this massive city, they send, like,

971

: 00:48:09

three little baby ships, and then,

like, oh, all of a sudden it's, like,

972

: 00:48:12

this, deep scar among their people

of, like, oh, because of the war.

973

: 00:48:18

Just going off of the lore really quick.

974

: 00:48:20

Miriel in the lore is not blind,

and the Palantir were, all seven of

975

: 00:48:25

them were given to the Numenoreans.

976

: 00:48:27

So the Numenoreans stationed

them in different, um, places.

977

: 00:48:29

Parts of Numenor and whenever they

made colonies on Middle-earth,

978

: 00:48:32

they would station some there.

979

: 00:48:34

And some of those fell to

Sauron or other people.

980

: 00:48:37

But these were like well

known within Numenor.

981

: 00:48:39

They're not like little hidden secrets

that elves, elf magic is using.

982

: 00:48:44

So I guess like it sort of makes sense

in terms of like elf hatred and that

983

: 00:48:48

they're using the, these, artifacts.

984

: 00:48:51

But at the same time, it's like

not a surprise or a hidden thing.

985

: 00:48:55

Obviously Elendil's daughter is like

a totally made up character from, and

986

: 00:48:58

doesn't exist in the lore, and they're

sort of using it to like split Elendil

987

: 00:49:02

and his family, and she's like, and

likes Ar-Pharazon's son or whatever.

988

: 00:49:06

And I think it's, the one thing I really

did like is that you're seeing these

989

: 00:49:09

split between the faithful already

and the Kingsmen, the people who are

990

: 00:49:12

behind Ar-Pharazon and the people who

were behind Miriel, and the fact that

991

: 00:49:16

Miriel went over and sacrificed herself

to fight for Middle-earth, and she has

992

: 00:49:19

soldiers who went with her and saw her

fight, and you saw that in the, like,

993

: 00:49:22

the bar scene or whatever, whenever

the soldier, I don't remember his name,

994

: 00:49:25

but stood up for the Queen, right?

995

: 00:49:27

And then you have the, the Kingsmen,

and it's that choice that Miriel

996

: 00:49:32

had to make about wearing white

or red, is very telling, because

997

: 00:49:36

white symbolizes the Valar and the

faithful, who are faithful to the

998

: 00:49:39

Valar, and red signifies the Kingsmen.

999

: 00:49:42

And notice Ar-Pharazon wears red in

the next scene to the coronation.

: 1000

00:49:46,467 --> 00:49:49,457

Also that red symbolizes the rising

sun where the land of, or sorry,

: 1001

00:49:49,457 --> 00:49:52,037

the setting sun where Valinor is,

because Valinor is in the west.

: 1002

00:49:52,587 --> 00:49:54,737

And they're going to try

to conquer Valinor, right?

: 1003

00:49:54,737 --> 00:49:57,507

So they want to conquer the land of

the sun, which is why they wear red.

: 1004

00:49:58,047 --> 00:50:01,112

so like this is, I love how

it's like tying to the lore

: 1005

00:50:01,112 --> 00:50:02,162

that we're seeing this split.

: 1006

00:50:02,652 --> 00:50:04,302

And I actually do like

that Miriel's blind.

: 1007

00:50:04,302 --> 00:50:07,922

I feel like it makes the character more

interesting and it, like, it also makes

: 1008

00:50:07,922 --> 00:50:11,102

it like, oh, it sort of makes sense that

Ar-Pharazon is able to come in and be

: 1009

00:50:11,102 --> 00:50:15,962

like, oh, I'm the strong man and, you

know, our leader is a, a weak blind woman.

: 1010

00:50:15,992 --> 00:50:18,422

But like, it makes it

sort of more compelling.

: 1011

00:50:18,422 --> 00:50:20,582

But that you see also, Miriel's

strength is a different kind of

: 1012

00:50:20,582 --> 00:50:24,632

strength that she is, you know, the

strength to resist fighting back

: 1013

00:50:24,632 --> 00:50:25,802

after getting slapped or whatever.

: 1014

00:50:26,482 --> 00:50:30,232

And to like be confident even whenever

she's not able to see what's going on

: 1015

00:50:30,242 --> 00:50:34,632

around her makes the character I feel

like more compelling, and more makes more

: 1016

00:50:34,632 --> 00:50:36,002

sense that they would rally behind her.

: 1017

00:50:36,482 --> 00:50:39,682

I do hope Elendil plays more of

a role because in the lore he's

: 1018

00:50:39,722 --> 00:50:42,302

like the leader of the faithful

and plays a significant role.

: 1019

00:50:42,722 --> 00:50:48,402

Also spoiler alerts, but in the

books Ar-Pharazon forces Miriel

: 1020

00:50:48,422 --> 00:50:52,292

to marry him to sort of more

legitimize his claim to the throne.

: 1021

00:50:52,702 --> 00:50:56,072

So that might be a thing that's

coming up, and would be very spicy

: 1022

00:50:56,072 --> 00:50:58,552

in the show because he's gonna

convince his cousin to marry him.

: 1023

00:50:59,579 --> 00:51:00,299

Philip: Oh my!

: 1024

00:51:00,452 --> 00:51:03,932

Mark: You noticed that he called her

Miriel, but she called him cousin.

: 1025

00:51:03,972 --> 00:51:06,442

And I wonder if that was sort of

like laying the groundwork for

: 1026

00:51:06,442 --> 00:51:09,712

she's like, I don't want any part

of you and he's sort of like, oh.

: 1027

00:51:09,729 --> 00:51:11,709

But yeah, I like how the eagle

showed up at the ceremony.

: 1028

00:51:11,749 --> 00:51:12,729

That seems like oh, oh.

: 1029

00:51:14,171 --> 00:51:17,471

Philip: Keep going, because I was, that's

the next thing I was touching on because,

: 1030

00:51:17,701 --> 00:51:20,371

you know, maybe there's more behind it,

but I was thinking like, okay, wait, is

: 1031

00:51:20,371 --> 00:51:27,211

this meaning like that Ar-Pharazon then

is like, is being picked over Miriel?

: 1032

00:51:27,231 --> 00:51:29,211

Or like, that was a

little confusing there.

: 1033

00:51:29,834 --> 00:51:35,614

Mark: Yeah, I think the eagle was

showing up to symbolize, Miriel's, like,

: 1034

00:51:35,694 --> 00:51:39,384

coronation, but I think you see that,

like, Ar-Pharazon is able to, like,

: 1035

00:51:39,464 --> 00:51:44,594

co opt it, and that, yeah, that's sort

of, is, like, it's interesting the way

: 1036

00:51:44,594 --> 00:51:47,454

this show has portrayed Ar-Pharazon,

but that he's sort of, like, Sauron

: 1037

00:51:47,464 --> 00:51:51,154

in many ways, that he is, like,

co opting the eagle symbol, right?

: 1038

00:51:51,154 --> 00:51:53,479

Like, oh, this eagle showed up, I'm

gonna, like, stand in front of it.

: 1039

00:51:53,719 --> 00:51:55,649

You notice he didn't

stand up too close to it.

: 1040

00:51:55,679 --> 00:51:58,779

So I think that maybe that's a sign

that he's not, he's afraid of it,

: 1041

00:51:59,019 --> 00:52:00,559

that it was, did not show up for him.

: 1042

00:52:00,559 --> 00:52:01,459

It showed up for Miriel.

: 1043

00:52:02,049 --> 00:52:06,309

But yeah, that like, he is using these

symbols and, the way he's able to twist.

: 1044

00:52:06,309 --> 00:52:06,449

Right.

: 1045

00:52:06,449 --> 00:52:09,239

He says like, whenever the thing is

thrown down, like no King of Gondor

: 1046

00:52:09,239 --> 00:52:13,879

would ever like use, use the Palantir,

and it forces Miriel to sort of out

: 1047

00:52:13,879 --> 00:52:15,299

herself: they're like, no, we need it.

: 1048

00:52:15,399 --> 00:52:18,779

But yeah, I think there are

a lot of things I liked,

: 1049

00:52:18,859 --> 00:52:20,329

maybe a couple that I didn't.

: 1050

00:52:20,399 --> 00:52:24,079

I don't, I don't think I'm going to

like how they use Elendil's daughter's

: 1051

00:52:24,079 --> 00:52:28,609

character, very well, but we'll see

how it looks going forward, yeah.

: 1052

00:52:29,016 --> 00:52:32,896

Philip: So one little spin

I've I think I figured out.

: 1053

00:52:32,896 --> 00:52:34,186

I don't um..

: 1054

00:52:34,546 --> 00:52:41,136

Anyways, like so like from lore like

eagles are kind of like of the same type

: 1055

00:52:41,176 --> 00:52:44,246

as the Istari in a sense, but they're

not I mean, they're not Istari, but

: 1056

00:52:44,336 --> 00:52:47,866

they're what's what what's the other word.

: 1057

00:52:48,059 --> 00:52:52,259

Mark: Sounds good, so, I can go like

on a brief lore dive into the eagles.

: 1058

00:52:52,724 --> 00:52:55,874

So, to be really quick,

there's like Iluvatar, right?

: 1059

00:52:55,874 --> 00:52:57,114

He's the god of Middle-earth.

: 1060

00:52:57,134 --> 00:52:58,914

not only Middle-earth,

but a bunch of worlds.

: 1061

00:52:59,294 --> 00:53:02,574

But he creates Middle-earth, and he sends

some of his servants to Middle-earth.

: 1062

00:53:03,184 --> 00:53:05,624

And the higher ones of his

servants become the Valar, and

: 1063

00:53:05,624 --> 00:53:07,164

the lower ones become the Maiar.

: 1064

00:53:07,674 --> 00:53:11,124

But while Illuvatar is like the god of

Tolkien's universe, he's all powerful and

: 1065

00:53:11,134 --> 00:53:15,859

all knowing, the servants that he sends

are not all powerful and all knowing, and

: 1066

00:53:15,859 --> 00:53:19,489

so that's sort of where the interplay of

Middle-earth comes along is because one

: 1067

00:53:19,489 --> 00:53:23,509

of the Valar, Morgoth, turns bad, well

his name was Melkor, then he turns bad and

: 1068

00:53:23,509 --> 00:53:27,099

becomes Morgoth, and he sort of starts a

war, and there's this conflict going on

: 1069

00:53:27,099 --> 00:53:30,229

between the Valar, who are Illuvatar's

servants, those are the servants of

: 1070

00:53:30,239 --> 00:53:36,029

God, and the servants of Morgoth, but

the, the highest member of the Valar

: 1071

00:53:36,329 --> 00:53:38,469

after Morgoth left, his name is Manwë.

: 1072

00:53:38,999 --> 00:53:43,179

And he's the one said who's closest to

the the heart and mind of Illuvatar.

: 1073

00:53:43,799 --> 00:53:45,939

And he's also probably the most

powerful one though there's

: 1074

00:53:45,959 --> 00:53:47,699

others who are also very powerful.

: 1075

00:53:48,239 --> 00:53:52,229

And he is directly connected to

his servants are like the eagles.

: 1076

00:53:52,319 --> 00:53:57,459

So they're not Maiar or not like the

Istari or like Gandalf or Saruman

: 1077

00:53:57,869 --> 00:54:02,869

in the same way, but they serve the

Valar, and direct like directly Manwe.

: 1078

00:54:02,869 --> 00:54:07,139

So they're seen as like Sort of the

hand of like the Valar, whenever

: 1079

00:54:07,249 --> 00:54:10,269

Manwe wants to act or do something,

he sends the eagles to do it.

: 1080

00:54:10,669 --> 00:54:10,999

Philip: Okay

: 1081

00:54:11,129 --> 00:54:15,809

Mark: This, this would be like Manwe"s,

like sort of giving his seal of ascent to

: 1082

00:54:15,809 --> 00:54:18,419

the King of Numenor by sending an eagle.

: 1083

00:54:18,919 --> 00:54:22,739

Philip: Gotcha, that make, that's

a little more, a little more clear

: 1084

00:54:22,739 --> 00:54:24,299

about who the eagles are then.

: 1085

00:54:24,409 --> 00:54:28,919

Mark: Yeah, so that's why it sort of

is, it's a sign of the Valar's assent

: 1086

00:54:28,939 --> 00:54:32,629

and why they would never give it to

Ar-Pharazon, because he, in the end,

: 1087

00:54:32,629 --> 00:54:37,009

we will try to destroy the Valinor,

or whatever, and, and lead people away

: 1088

00:54:37,009 --> 00:54:41,119

from the proper worship of Illuvatar

to worshiping Sauron actually.

: 1089

00:54:41,209 --> 00:54:41,509

So.

: 1090

00:54:41,601 --> 00:54:42,201

Philip: That's cool though.

: 1091

00:54:42,451 --> 00:54:48,041

Yeah, so I think, this third episode,

was definitely my favorite one, and I

: 1092

00:54:48,041 --> 00:54:52,621

was wondering why is that, like, it's

like, it's like, well, I guess the

: 1093

00:54:52,641 --> 00:54:54,661

elves and the Harfoots aren't in there.

: 1094

00:54:55,021 --> 00:54:57,181

So, that was like one thing.

: 1095

00:54:57,816 --> 00:54:59,616

that was like, I guess, one reason why.

: 1096

00:54:59,716 --> 00:55:01,696

I guess, especially the Harfoots.

: 1097

00:55:01,697 --> 00:55:05,567

Yeah, maybe, maybe the storyline will

get more interesting when they get

: 1098

00:55:05,567 --> 00:55:07,317

closer to this, other wizard guy..

: 1099

00:55:07,477 --> 00:55:07,577

But

: 1100

00:55:08,077 --> 00:55:10,665

Mark: Maybe I almost feel like.

: 1101

00:55:10,845 --> 00:55:12,255

So here's what I'd like

to say about the Harfoots.

: 1102

00:55:12,255 --> 00:55:14,805

I think you're right that for some

reason they just like always rub me

: 1103

00:55:14,805 --> 00:55:19,435

the wrong way, and I think that like

they almost went like maybe full,

: 1104

00:55:19,455 --> 00:55:21,085

like two camp with the Harfoots.

: 1105

00:55:21,085 --> 00:55:23,945

Where they're like, oh, they're

like somebody is like making a

: 1106

00:55:23,945 --> 00:55:25,775

parody of the Hobbits or something.

: 1107

00:55:26,195 --> 00:55:26,475

Right?

: 1108

00:55:26,475 --> 00:55:28,335

Where they always have like

acorns in their hair and they're

: 1109

00:55:28,335 --> 00:55:29,905

always saying the goofiest stuff.

: 1110

00:55:30,285 --> 00:55:34,090

And it's like, oh, the Hobbits were like

sort of like normal people just like

: 1111

00:55:34,100 --> 00:55:37,670

a little more like rustic and country

and sort of goofy at some times, right?

: 1112

00:55:37,670 --> 00:55:41,420

Like, but they weren't like, oh,

they're just like total jokes.

: 1113

00:55:41,440 --> 00:55:41,850

I don't know.

: 1114

00:55:41,870 --> 00:55:45,570

Maybe that's like sort of my impression

or something that they just went

: 1115

00:55:45,590 --> 00:55:48,000

a little too extreme on the like

: 1116

00:55:48,560 --> 00:55:51,210

Hobbit-esque-ness of the Harfoots.

: 1117

00:55:51,260 --> 00:55:54,740

So, yeah, but for some reason

I also can't stand them.

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00:55:54,740 --> 00:56:00,680

Philip: Yeah, Yeah, like, if, too,

like, if they, kicked in a little bit

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00:56:00,680 --> 00:56:05,820

more gear with him controlling his

powers, the, you know, wizard, Gandalf.

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00:56:06,290 --> 00:56:09,970

then, and like, cause some

better scenes with that, I think

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00:56:09,970 --> 00:56:11,100

that would be pretty cool..

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00:56:11,550 --> 00:56:16,430

Because, I don't like, right, because

throughout, throughout the stories of

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00:56:16,550 --> 00:56:19,800

like, especially of, I mean, all the

stories, you got like, The Silmarillion,

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00:56:19,830 --> 00:56:22,870

you got The Lord of the Rings, you got

the, as you were talking about, like,

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00:56:23,310 --> 00:56:27,360

the evil characters who are really

powerful and you're going up against

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00:56:27,360 --> 00:56:32,820

like these great odds, so you've got

a, you know and in some ways it's like

: 1127

00:56:32,820 --> 00:56:36,050

you're saying like oh, hey We just

like happened to like get into this

: 1128

00:56:36,050 --> 00:56:41,080

situation that got us out of things but

it's definitely like impending impending

: 1129

00:56:41,080 --> 00:56:44,570

doom it's like you're, like serious odds

that you're having to go up against.

: 1130

00:56:44,570 --> 00:56:53,220

And maybe like more of that will build As

like story moves along and maybe Sauron

: 1131

00:56:53,220 --> 00:56:55,790

able to get more power through the rings.

: 1132

00:56:56,490 --> 00:57:02,770

But yeah, I think that's something to me

that like I think makes Lord of the Rings

: 1133

00:57:02,780 --> 00:57:06,930

so good is that you have these great evil

characters that you have to go up against.

: 1134

00:57:07,270 --> 00:57:12,430

And it seems like it's impossible to do,

but like you have Rohan who saves the

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00:57:12,430 --> 00:57:14,990

day, so like that kind of thing, but yeah.

: 1136

00:57:15,040 --> 00:57:17,310

Mark: I think it'll be super

interesting to see what's going forward.

: 1137

00:57:17,690 --> 00:57:20,350

Ultimately though, I think the

first three episodes like, overall

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00:57:20,350 --> 00:57:21,900

surprised me with how good they were.

: 1139

00:57:22,340 --> 00:57:24,450

Maybe it's just where I'm at in

life that I'm not like, I don't

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00:57:24,450 --> 00:57:25,970

have a lot of time to do fun things.

: 1141

00:57:25,990 --> 00:57:28,960

And so it was like, wow, this is like

really fun to sit down and watch a show.

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00:57:29,420 --> 00:57:33,120

So yeah, I think hopefully, I'm

looking forward to whenever the

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00:57:33,120 --> 00:57:34,440

next episode comes out on Thursday.

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00:57:34,480 --> 00:57:34,790

So,

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00:57:34,967 --> 00:57:36,297

Philip: yeah, it'd be good.

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00:57:36,797 --> 00:57:40,957

So, alright, thanks everybody for

tuning in and listening to our

: 1147

00:57:40,957 --> 00:57:42,817

review of episodes 1 through 3.

: 1148

00:57:43,317 --> 00:57:46,887

And catch us here for

the review of episode 4.

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00:57:46,927 --> 00:57:49,707

And, we'll, get in touch with you then.

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00:57:53,277 --> 00:57:54,607

Philip Outro: Thanks for

visiting the White City.

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00:57:55,107 --> 00:57:58,157

Before you leave, please subscribe

to our podcast and check us out

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00:57:58,157 --> 00:58:02,337

at thewhitecitypodcast.com or

on YouTube or Facebook under

: 1153

00:58:02,337 --> 00:58:04,107

the tag @thewhitecitypodcast

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