Julian Treasure is one of the most-watched TED speakers in the world, but his message is simple: the most important skill for speakers is listening.

In this episode, Julian explains why audiences don’t hear your message “as delivered.” They hear it through filters: culture, mood, expectations, time of day, the speaker before you, and even the acoustics of the room.

We talk about how to “listen to their listening” in real time, how to recover when the energy is off, and how to make your voice land with more impact, without turning into a motivational foghorn.

What you’ll learn

1. Why speaking and listening form a circle, not a straight line
2. The listening filters that shape how audiences receive your message
3. How to handle the “graveyard slot” and other attention dips
4. What to do when the speaker before you has poisoned the room
5. The “gift” visualisation to instantly improve your on-stage presence
6. Why sound affects physiology, focus, behaviour, and buying decisions
7. Practical advice on mics, acoustics, and why lavaliers can betray you
8. The role of silence and humility in real listening
9. Julian’s Listening Society and his speaking and listening assessments

Links mentioned

1. Julian’s Listening Society (free resources and membership) https://www.thelisteningsociety.community/sign_up?request_host=www.thelisteningsociety.community
2. https://www.juliantreasure.com/
3. Julian’s speaking and listening assessments (individual and organisational scorecards) https://juliantreasure.floot.app/

CHAPTERS

1. 00:00 Intro: Julian Treasure and why listening beats speaking
2. 02:00 Julian’s contrarian stance: listening is the base of the pyramid
3. 04:00 Listening to their listening: the filters audiences use
4. 06:00 Graveyard slots, room mood, and the speaker before you
5. 08:00 How to recover when the audience is off
6. 12:00 The “gift” visualisation for stage presence
7. 16:00 The three intentions: you, the audience, and their intention for themselves
8. 19:00 Why listening has been sidelined in modern life
9. 21:00 Sound’s effects: physiology, psychology, behaviour, cognition
10. 24:00 TED curation and making every word a “diamond”
11. 26:00 Being heard: mics, AV crews, and room acoustics
12. 30:00 Silence, humility, and listening as a leadership skill
13. 35:00 Julian’s TED history and the talk that went ballistic
14. 40:00 Coaching, leadership, listening, and organisational disengagement
15. 42:00 Listening Society and assessments
16. 45:00 Outro: key takeaways and what’s next

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Want to get coached for free on the show? Fill in the form https://forms.gle/mo4xYkEiCjqtz9yP6, and if we think your challenge could help others, we'll invite you on.

For speaking enquiries or to connect with me, you can email john@presentinfluence.com or find me on LinkedIn

You can find all our clips, episodes and more on the Present Influence YouTube channel: https://www.youtube.com/@PresentInfluence

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Mentioned in this episode:

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Hello, and welcome to Professional Speaking.

2

I'm John Ball, and today's guest is

one of the most watched TED speakers

3

on the planet, Julian Treasure.

4

Now, my speakers are obsessed over what

to say and no wonder why the room drifts,

5

the Q and A falls flat, and the talk

feels like it's landing on a carpet.

6

In this conversation, you'll know why.

7

Julian believes the most important skill

for any speaker isn't speaking at all.

8

It's listening.

9

You'll hear about how to read an listening

in real time, how to recover when the

10

room's energy is off, and how to make your

voice and message land with more impact.

11

Julian's talks on speaking and

listening have been viewed well

12

into nine figures, and he's coached

leaders and speakers worldwide.

13

I'm fortunate enough personally to

have known Julian for nearly 20 years,

14

and happy to say, finally managed

to get him to come onto the podcast.

15

I hope you'll enjoy the

conversation as much as I did.

16

Let's get into it.

17

Welcome Julian.

18

Julian Treasure: Thank you so much, John.

19

Good to be here.

20

Good to see you again.

21

John: it's a real delight to

connect with you once again.

22

I would imagine that for our listener,

there's a good chance they would've.

23

Come across you.

24

even if they may not have, completely

registered it, you are one of the,

25

one of the most popular TED speakers

that has been on, on the TED stage and

26

I think third most popular Ted talk.

27

Some, something like that.

28

Julian Treasure: Three on YouTube.

29

It's number six on ted.com.

30

so yes, it's done

amazingly well that talk.

31

John: Yeah.

32

And, and you've been on the TED stage a

a bunch of times as well, and, and, and

33

you've got some really cool books out

there, including How to Be Heard, which

34

I, I got a lot of value out of reading

myself, so do, do you appreciate that?

35

And we, we've known each

other for quite a while.

36

I think the first time ever we.

37

Connected.

38

I remember specifically you were talking

about your business, the sound agency,

39

and that has really always been your,

your sort of area like sound and,

40

and, I, it's always stuck in my head

for you talking about how disruptive

41

the sounds of like street works were

and and, and how we could actually

42

have much nicer working environments.

43

So, you know, a lot of what you say has,

has Stephanie stayed with me over years?

44

Julian Treasure: Yes, definitely.

45

I mean, these days I've

got four things that.

46

I speak about and work on.

47

and they are powerful speaking, conscious

listening, AI and human communication,

48

which is a very interesting area as well.

49

And finally, healthy and productive

sound, especially in workspace.

50

So those are the four areas

that I'm very active in.

51

And, I imagine the first and second

of those will concern us mostly today.

52

John: Yeah, we definitely want

to get into, into some of that.

53

One.

54

One of the things I like to lead

into things with is, is asking my

55

guests about whether you have a,

an opinion or a stance and relevant

56

to what you do professionally.

57

There might be a bit different or

even contrarian to what a common

58

wisdom or to what other people in

the industry are generally saying.

59

What, is that?

60

Do you have one?

61

What would that be for you?

62

Julian Treasure: Yes, I think I would.

63

Probably be unusual in saying

that I think the most important

64

skill for a speaker is listening.

65

I think it's very difficult to be a

powerful speaker on a stage or in an

66

individual conversation or with a group

of people if you are not a good listener.

67

So to me, the kind of pyramid

of communication, if you want to

68

visualize it, the base is listening.

69

The middle layer.

70

Speaking, and the pinnacle, of

course, is presenting, you know,

71

professional speaking oratory, as it

used to be called once upon a Time.

72

And I think that's a, the, the pyramid

shape is, is relevant because the base is

73

the most important part, the listening.

74

John: Yeah, so I'd love to

dive into that a little more.

75

Like, I mean, talk about listening

and, and our listener might be

76

thinking, well, am I supposed to

be listening when I'm on stage?

77

Or what, what are we talking about here?

78

Like where, what am I supposed

to be listening to and when

79

am I supposed to be listening?

80

Julian Treasure: Well, first

of all, listening to the

81

people you are speaking to.

82

I mean, there's a, there's a lot

about listening and speaking, which,

83

I mean, I dunno if you remember, I

think I've told you this before, but my

84

visualization of this is that there's

a circle, listening and speaking

85

are not in a linear relationship.

86

It's not I speak, you

listen, straight line.

87

It's a circle between the two because the

way I speak affects the way you listen

88

and the way you listen affects the way I

speak and vice versa and round them round.

89

It's kind of organic Now.

90

If you are a professional speaker,

it's very important to understand that

91

every human beings listening is unique.

92

Now, most people don't understand this.

93

Most people actually have

an innate assumption that

94

everybody listens like I do.

95

It's all the same, and that's

profoundly wrong, and if you work

96

on that basis, you are effectively

going around speaking to yourself.

97

The whole time, and it's not you

out there, it's somebody very

98

different who may have an entirely

different listening to yours because

99

we listen through a set of filters.

100

The filters are things like the

culture we're born into, the language.

101

We learn to speak the values, attitudes,

and beliefs we accrete along the

102

way from parents, teachers, role

models, friends, whoever it might be.

103

And then in any given situation, we may

have intentions, we may have expectations.

104

We may have assumptions and we may

have emotions going on as well.

105

So listening changes from person to person

or group to group, audience to audience.

106

And it changes over time as well.

107

Now you'll know that, that, there's a

slot just after lunch, which professional

108

speakers tend to name the graveyard

slot, and I get given that quite a lot.

109

You know, oh, he's a TED

speaker, he can cope with that.

110

You know, and in the graveyard start,

the listening is very different to the

111

listening at nine 30 in the morning,

or indeed at five 30 in the afternoon

112

when they will want to go home.

113

So the listening of an audience will

change through the day and it can change

114

very dramatically and dynamically as well,

which is one reason why I always like to

115

be in the room quite a long time before

I speak to hear the person before me.

116

They can have a dramatic effect on

the listening I'm about to speak into.

117

You know, they, they might

make the audience cry.

118

They might make the, the audience

laugh, or, you know, in some cases

119

I've had it, that they've really

pissed off the audience and created

120

a bad feeling in the room, and I have

to go on and deal with that somehow.

121

So the listening is not uniform.

122

And apart from anything else,

you have to ask yourself, what

123

are the audience doing there?

124

I mean, what do they want?

125

What's their problem?

126

What's the journey I can take them on?

127

So asking the question, what's

the listening I'm speaking into is

128

fundamental, and that's something

you can assess even as you are on

129

stage by listening to the listening.

130

So, yes, you need to listen when

you're on stage and speaking.

131

You need to be conscious of the

listening you speak, intern, how

132

you're changing it, how it's morphing

and changing, whatever's going on.

133

So yes, listening is

part of speaking to me.

134

John: Yeah.

135

and I would say, I would maybe even.

136

Myself, add to that, as I saying, I

think there's a lot you need to be

137

more aware of and more present with

when we are, when we're on stage

138

and when we're speaking as well.

139

so listening is definitely part of that.

140

But something that sometimes' taken

in the, some of the visual things that

141

are going on in our environment as

well, or tuning into the energy is that

142

these are all, again, sort of ways of

listening or checking in and getting

143

some feedback from those environments.

144

In relation to, in relation to

what you, you were just saying

145

there is, is fascinating to me.

146

Yeah.

147

one, one quick, quick sidebar though.

148

how, how do you go about winning

over an audience when the speaker

149

before you was just pissed them off?

150

What, what did you do in that situation?

151

Julian Treasure: Well,

it may be make a joke.

152

It may be actually face the issue.

153

I'm a, I'm a great believer in, dealing

with elephants in rooms and being open

154

about the process that we are all in,

not pretending that there's something

155

other going on, but, you know, maybe I

was in the audience too for that talk,

156

so maybe I come on and share what it.

157

For me without necessarily being

out, you know, incredibly rude

158

or, dismissive of the previous

speaker, which is unprofessional.

159

But, you know, maybe just share, well,

wow, I found that quite challenging.

160

How are you, you know,

whatever it might be.

161

there may be a reason to do that, or

maybe you just come on and have to

162

work very hard to do something that's

dramatic and does a, a, a massive shift.

163

People's attitude and state.

164

so there are lots of

ways of assessing that.

165

it's important to be reactive and

fast on your feet as a speaker.

166

And by the way, all the things

167

John: I agree,

168

Julian Treasure: around the room

being sensitive to the vibe.

169

And so I, I, I put all that

into the basket of listening.

170

So that's, to me, listening

is, is a multisensory activity.

171

It's not simply with the ears.

172

John: So it's more listening in the

sense of taking in the signals audio

173

and otherwise around, around your

environment and, and, whatever else

174

is coming up for you there that, that

is, that is interesting for you and

175

it makes sense that you would, you

would put all of that in together.

176

I, I would say as well, definitely.

177

It's good to know how, how we handle

these situations, and I do think this

178

is one of the reasons why speakers

do need to be really well prepared.

179

Practice when they show up to, because

it's hard to be light on your feet

180

in situations where you, you are

just too busy focusing on what you're

181

gonna say and getting that right

if you haven't really practiced it

182

and, and polished it well enough.

183

But, I, I think also in, in those

sorts of situations, it does actually

184

show your audience that you, are you.

185

Pass you are with them if you've

actually been tuning into and

186

experiencing something with them.

187

So that when I've ever been on stage in,

and I'm not the first person speaking,

188

if I have the opportunity to see other

speakers before me, I do find referencing

189

that does actually engage the audience.

190

Particularly as well, and sort of

gives that sort of shared experience

191

and shows you are paying attention.

192

I think the people who are on

before you appreciate it, you often,

193

if you are, especially if you're

calling back to something, something

194

significant from what they said.

195

So I think these are all things that

can really, pull the audience in

196

more and say, all right, you know,

this is a level of attention we,

197

we probably should be aiming for.

198

Julian Treasure: Sure.

199

Yes.

200

I mean, it goes around

the other way as well.

201

I've often, when I speak, sometimes

there's somebody coming on after me

202

who's not a, an experienced speaker

at all, and I've just been speaking

203

about brilliant speaking, hopefully.

204

Well, so they'll often come on and say.

205

Oh my God, I, I'm coming on after

that, you know, and that is sharing

206

their own uncertainty and the audience

immediately identify with them.

207

That's a very good thing to

do, you know, if there is a

208

challenge, then be open about it.

209

And I'm, I'm not immune to these things.

210

Of course, you know, we, we are

all, I mean, I have been on, after

211

somebody who's, you know, been

brilliant and had the audience

212

in stitches, and I'm not funny.

213

I mean, I don't do gags on stage, so.

214

You know, there's a

challenge there as well.

215

so whatever it is that's come before

you acknowledge and as you say, identify

216

with the audience because you've seen

it, you've had the same feelings, and

217

that's a very good way of making a

connection, an emotional connection

218

with the people you're speaking to.

219

John: So when we are listening to these

signals in the room, particularly when

220

we are talking to our audience as well.

221

what would be your advice or the

way that you would then process

222

and utilize that listening?

223

How, how do you then put that

into some sort of positive action?

224

So there's, there's a

greater benefit to it.

225

Julian Treasure: Well, of course.

226

Part of the listening is in advance, so

it's thinking about the audience, and

227

I'm always very careful to do that, to

ask questions of my contact, whoever's

228

booking me for a thing, about who the

audience are, demographics, professional

229

interest, you know, why are they there?

230

What are, what are they seeking to get

out of this event at which I'm speaking?

231

What problems do they have?

232

What are, what's their focus?

233

What's the, what's the pain that

they've got at the moment and how

234

can I contribute to solving that?

235

And this is all about creating.

236

I think one of the most powerful

visualizations, which I teach people when

237

I'm coaching them is all about the gift.

238

So the visualization is, you know, imagine

a 6-year-old that, you know, I mean.

239

If you don't, just imagine a 6-year-old.

240

But most people will know a small child

that's some some way related to them

241

and it's their birthday and you have

got for them the best present ever.

242

The thing that they really, really

want that is gonna make them so happy.

243

And you are standing in front of

them with this present wrapped up.

244

And this is the moment where you go,

well, I know what I've got for you.

245

That feeling.

246

Of elation, of excitement, of generosity

is what you need to be going on stage

247

with because you are about to give a gift.

248

if the gift isn't what the people

want, what are you doing there?

249

So very much the prep for a talk

is to think about milk, to make

250

sure that the gift you are going to

give is relevant, useful, exciting.

251

You know, it's going to be a value.

252

To the audience that you're speaking to.

253

And then as you come on stage, that's

the feeling I've got this gift for you.

254

It's great and it'll make you

excited and happy and up, and it'll

255

make you connect with the audience.

256

And most of all, it stops the

whole thing being about you.

257

'cause it isn't, it's never about you.

258

It's about the gift.

259

That visualization, I think is one of the

most powerful any speaker can ever have.

260

John: And that's the specific

visualization that you yourself

261

use and with your coaching clients

as well to get into that emotional

262

state before going out on the stage.

263

Julian Treasure: Absolutely.

264

Yes.

265

John: Great.

266

valuable tool.

267

Just there.

268

Julian Treasure: You're happy, you're

smiling, you're excited, you know,

269

as you should be because you are,

you are about to do something great,

270

and if you're not gonna do something

great, what are you doing there?

271

It's, it's your job to make sure

272

John: Why are you, why

are you on the stage?

273

Otherwise,

274

Julian Treasure: exactly.

275

John: the, I I, I love that.

276

I think the, the emotional state side

of speaking is missed by so many people

277

who just think it's about, it's about.

278

Purely about the words that you say

and, and really not about the emotion,

279

the energy, or whatever other elements

you may bring to what is essentially a

280

performance, when, when you're on stage.

281

Well, at least to a degree, not,

not just that, hopefully it's a

282

bit more, but you are performing

whilst, whilst you're on the stage.

283

What, what are your thoughts on sort

of like, I I I sometimes talk about

284

energy leadership when, when people

are on the stage, what that's, as the

285

speaker, you are leading the emotional

journey for people in the room that

286

you want to be pulling them across.

287

Is that something that, that

you would agree with or do?

288

Do you have a different perspective?

289

Julian Treasure: I think the journey is

very important to identify in advance.

290

You need to know where're

going to start from a.

291

Where you are going to

leave them at the end?

292

Where are you taking them?

293

It's like in a film, you have an

arc and each character has an arc.

294

It's very important that you

understand that arc for the

295

audience and where, you know, what

journey are you gonna take them on.

296

It may not be emotional.

297

If you're talking about a university

professor who's presenting a paper,

298

I don't imagine there's much emotion

in there, but that's about knowledge.

299

It's about elucidation,

enlightenment, whatever it may be.

300

So whatever your objective is,

it may be entertainment, it may

301

be education, may be inspiration,

maybe a call to action, whatever

302

it is, be clear about the journey.

303

And I always say there are three

intentions that are important

304

to clarify before speaking.

305

First, there's your intention for you.

306

So what does success look

like at the end of this?

307

And that's something where I

know, you know, we, we share,

308

some NLP training back in the day.

309

it's something which the kind of

NLP technique of visualization

310

can be very useful for.

311

So you can really visualize,

you know, coming off stage.

312

And what does that look

like, feel like, smell like.

313

Taste like, even sound like what really

visualizing what that success is.

314

So that's your journey.

315

What's your intention at the end for you?

316

The second intention is what's your

intention for the audience, which

317

is what we just talked about, the

arc, the the, the landing point.

318

Where are you taking them from to,

and what does that feel like for them?

319

The third intention, of course,

you have to guess which is

320

their intention for them.

321

And if you can guess that

reasonably accurately before you

322

go on and align those things, then

you're gonna have a great time.

323

John: Yeah, and I love that.

324

It's really, really useful way

to, to structure it as well.

325

When we chatted a, a little while

ago and talking very specifically

326

about, about listening and, uh, so we

knew that this is what we were gonna

327

be coming here to talk about today.

328

Primarily, one of the things that came

up when we're chatting, which, which

329

I'd love to touch on now, was 'cause

I often, I often will say about how,

330

Professional speaking, public

speaking is, is as much a journey of

331

personal growth as, as anything else.

332

It's like it pushes you, often for most

people anyway, pushes you in directions

333

to, to grow, to develop, to become maybe

more authentic, hopefully to, to expand

334

yourself and, and become better, hopefully

a better version of yourself too.

335

Listening is undoubtedly a big part

of that, but possibly doesn't get

336

considered as much, as, as some of the

perhaps more obvious elements or the

337

more things we've heard about more often.

338

And you were talking about, I, I

remember the, importance of listening

339

beyond justice, being on the stage,

like how valuable it is for us.

340

in general.

341

Could, could you speak

a little more to that?

342

Julian Treasure: I think listening

is a long forgotten skill.

343

It's a skill and most people

don't even acknowledge that.

344

it's interesting, isn't it, that

we teach children how to read and

345

write, not how to speak and listen.

346

And yet for 3 million years or

so, our species has developed

347

and, evolved with the almost.

348

I'd say 99.7,

349

I think, or 99.8%.

350

I worked it out once.

351

99.8%

352

of that time.

353

We've communicated entirely by speaking

and listening, or you know, more than

354

150,000 years ago by making noises and

listening before we invented words.

355

So sound has been our primary

mode of communication for a

356

huge, huge length of time.

357

Writing was only invented 5,000 years ago.

358

Yet it's taken over to the point where

many young people today would prefer to

359

send a text or an instant message compared

to speaking to somebody face-to-face

360

or even on a phone call, and they don't

like making phone calls very much.

361

You know, there are now lots

of research and lots of stories

362

coming out of organizations where

people, they're finding that young

363

people resist making phone calls.

364

They don't like making phone

calls and actually having to talk

365

to somebody and listen to them.

366

So I think listening has been

sidelined by our obsession with the

367

eyes and with visual communication.

368

And you know, to the point where

we talk about video conferencing.

369

You know, many people would

call this video conferencing.

370

It's not there, John, it's not, it's

audio conferencing with optional video.

371

'cause if the pictures go off, we can

carry on perfectly well, but if the

372

sound goes down, what are we gonna do?

373

Smoke signals hand the si hand hand signs.

374

I don't know.

375

so audio sound and speaking and

listening have been primal and I

376

think we've just, for some reason

turned our backs on them in the la

377

particularly in the last 50 years.

378

And that's very sad, because the

sound around this influences us.

379

And, you know, my, my books talk a lot

about this, the four effects of sound.

380

Which influences us, by changing our

physiology, heart rate, breathing

381

hormone, secretions, brainwaves,

all changed by the sound around us.

382

psychologically our feelings just think

of music, of course, but it's not the

383

only sound that changes our feelings.

384

For example, bird Song makes many

people feel secure and, you know, happy.

385

It's a very good sound to work to.

386

By the way, Birdsong, if you are looking

for something to put on in headphones.

387

John: remembered that from one

of your talks from years ago.

388

I used to tune into Birdsong radio on

the internet specifically because of

389

something you'd said in one of your talks.

390

Yeah, very true.

391

Julian Treasure: I mean, put

music on because music's very,

392

it's, it's high bandwidth as well.

393

It takes a lot of cognitive

load, to listen to music.

394

It's very difficult to do a lot

when you've got music going on.

395

Birdsong is brilliant because

we can not notice this at all.

396

We've evolved to it and yet it's

the sound of things being okay

397

generally, and nature's alarm clock.

398

Time to wake up when

the birds are singing.

399

So it's, it's very productive.

400

And then sound changes us behaviorally.

401

It changes what we do, as well.

402

so there's lots of studies on this

fast-paced sound speeds us up, slow paced

403

sound slows us down, and so on and so on.

404

It even changes what we choose

to buy, and cognitively.

405

Sound changes how well we can concentrate.

406

We all know that.

407

Sure.

408

Shut up.

409

And a think here.

410

You know, it's very difficult.

411

We don't have any ear lids, so

sound is changing us all the time.

412

And becoming conscious of this

is all part of becoming a more

413

conscious, present human being to

me, having a more conscious life.

414

And, you know, there's an

awful lot of people now going

415

around who are doom scrolling.

416

you know, I, I get very frustrated when

I go to London walking on the pavements

417

with incredible numbers of people

are walking around looking at their

418

hand instead of where they're going.

419

That's quite difficult to navigate now.

420

so getting lost in these

421

John: walking into traffic as well.

422

Julian Treasure: Yes.

423

Yeah.

424

Even.

425

When there was Yes, yes.

426

Absolutely.

427

So, so it is, I think, it's, it's

a part of becoming more conscious

428

and connected to the real world

that's happening around us now.

429

You know, not everybody wants

to do that, I suppose, but I do.

430

And definitely what you said earlier is

absolutely right To me, when I'm standing

431

on a stage with a couple of thousand

people looking at me, I'm very conscious.

432

mean, if you're not conscious at that

moment, well, are you gonna be conscious?

433

So it's a question of every

gesture, every movement, every word.

434

Being conscious, not involuntary, not

unconscious, not distracting, not useless.

435

Everything needs to be focused.

436

I'm, I'm having a lot

of fun at the moment.

437

I dunno if you've seen this,

but I've had the honor, of, or

438

I have the honor of curating and

presenting a session at Ted in April.

439

Now Ted, many people don't even know

this, Ted is actually a conference.

440

So most of the things you see on ted.com

441

come from the conference.

442

It's, you know, 1500 people in an

amazing theater in Vancouver, and

443

there are 12 sessions in a week.

444

Each session's about 90 minutes,

and each talk is about 10 minutes.

445

So I'm curating about nine wonderful

talks in a session called Reasons to

446

Listen, which I'm very excited about.

447

And I can tell you the honing of

these talks is a fascinating process.

448

You know, working with these people

to get every word to ha to be a

449

diamond, which has got meaning and

purpose and weight, it's non-trivial.

450

It's a beautiful thing.

451

When you have somebody who's got a

talk that's so gorgeously honed that,

452

you know, there's no wastage, there's

no all the fat's being cut away.

453

It's now absolutely.

454

Lean and magnificent.

455

like we would love to be John.

456

So, I think that process has, has

really reminded me of the importance of

457

losing the fillers, of being absolutely

crystal clear in what you're trying to

458

say and how you are going to say it.

459

so yes, listening.

460

Listening is part of consciousness,

and consciousness is I think wonderful.

461

John: Yeah, I love that.

462

And you said you weren't funny, Julie?

463

No.

464

Well, I think you just proved yourself

wrong, but, but, Let me ask you this,

465

'cause I, I, I remember your, your

company, the, the sound agency, you would

466

like create soundscapes in businesses,

like understanding how important sound,

467

was for working environments as well.

468

And I do take that into consideration

in, in my own working environment to

469

some degree from, from the stage in

terms of, Is there anything you think

470

about in terms of how we are heard?

471

not just listening, but how we are heard,

how other people are listening to us that

472

we could, can be more aware about things.

473

I guess like good, good mic, sound room.

474

Know what we do in rooms where

that, that don't sound good.

475

Where the sound is not coming through

Well, what we can maybe do, you know,

476

or what you maybe focus on for improving

how we are received when we are speaking.

477

Julian Treasure: That's all

very important to think about.

478

Of course, it's, it's crucial to

check all this stuff in advance.

479

So any professional who's been around for

a while will be very careful to check.

480

You know, you don't wanna be turning

up to a venue and go, what do you

481

mean you don't have a projector?

482

Because everything I do has got slides.

483

So, you know, those kind of things

can happen if you're not careful.

484

So be careful, when you get there.

485

If it's a big gig, say

hello to the AV crew.

486

Introduce yourself yourself and be polite

and get to know them because they're

487

gonna make or break your performance.

488

Specify the, the tech that

you like to work with.

489

For me, I prefer a handheld mic.

490

Some people find that quite surprising

because they like to gesticulate

491

with both hands, in which case a

headset mic is fine and some places

492

will really almost insist on it.

493

I mean, Ted.

494

Would insist they have a, a

bespoke custom designed headset

495

mic that's, that's been, you know,

finely engineered over the years.

496

It's almost invisible on video,

and yet it works very well.

497

but I prefer a handheld because

it's got a much bigger capsule.

498

So it's a better sound than the tiny

little capsule you have on those headsets.

499

And also, I understand mic technique,

so I know when to hold the mic

500

close and when to move it further

away, and how to work with one hand.

501

Even if I've got a clicker in the other

hand, I'm, I'm perfectly happy closed hand

502

gesticulating, if you see what I mean.

503

It may limit me slightly, but I,

504

John: Yeah.

505

Julian Treasure: it's just my style.

506

Now, other people will be perfectly

happy with something like a lavalier.

507

I don't like them.

508

And, the reason I don't like them

is because if you move your head, if

509

you've got a laval, that's the little

one that clips onto your clothes.

510

If you've got a lav on your clothes

and you move your head, you go

511

off mic so quickly and so easily.

512

Plus they can rustle a lot.

513

so I think carefully about the tech.

514

Make sure you know what

it is and what it can do.

515

Understand the acoustics

of a hall, definitely.

516

I've done gigs where I get into

a room, it's a hundred people,

517

and I go, where's the mic?

518

Oh, we don't have any microphones.

519

Is that all right?

520

Well, it's gonna have to be.

521

So, you know, part of being a great

speaker and a good client relations

522

person is that you don't stamp

your foot and become a prima donna.

523

is it possible to get a mic.

524

Okay, don't worry, I'll make it work.

525

And then my reaction to that was

move everybody out to the outside

526

of the room and speak in the round.

527

I went into the middle of the

room instead of on the stage and

528

connected with everybody, which

meant I had to rotate quite often.

529

But it's quite nice, you know, you're

much closer to people and it certainly

530

helped my voice not having to shout

over 40 meters to the back of a room

531

instead of being much closer to people.

532

John: And probably many of us wouldn't

have figured that out, not having your

533

sort of, understanding of, of acoustics

and, and ring technology, as well.

534

So yeah, def definitely useful.

535

Good.

536

It is really valuable.

537

Julian Treasure: sometimes in American

hotels where you're in a ballroom

538

which has got flimsy partitions

and you can perfectly well hear the

539

the speaker in the next partition,

and that's quite frustrating.

540

You need to maybe acknowledge that.

541

Ask people to move into the

center, whatever it may be, to

542

give them the best experience.

543

And sometimes you get a slap back,

echo off the back of the room

544

if the acoustics are terrible.

545

And again, I mean, there's not much you

can do about that other than make a joke

546

about being Elvis Presley or something.

547

so being conscious of

these things allows you to.

548

Engage the audience, acknowledge the

issue, if there is one, help them to solve

549

it and be, you know, not, not just ignore

it and, and leave it in their court.

550

So I think these things

are very important.

551

John: I dunno if this is an odd

question or not, but, it's just one

552

I'm curious about, but the, the role

of silence in this thing, which seems

553

paradoxical I guess, but what, what

role does silence play in our listening

554

experience from your perspective?

555

Julian Treasure: Critical.

556

Absolutely critical.

557

I mean, if you are really listening

to somebody, you are being silent.

558

Listening is an intensely humble.

559

Experience actually, which is why it

gets harder, I think as people get more

560

senior in organizations, many listeners,

many leaders are not good listeners.

561

because it's a kind of an ego thing.

562

If you are listening to somebody,

you are innately saying, you

563

are more important than I am at

this moment, and that's humble.

564

Now, sometimes people's egos don't

permit them to enjoy that very much.

565

So they're eager to interrupt.

566

They're doing the what Stephen Covey

talked about, listening to respond

567

instead of listening to understand or

to empathize or whatever it may be.

568

there's a great quote by Scott Peck.

569

He said, you cannot truly

listen to another person and do

570

anything else at the same time.

571

Well, that's true listening, and

it is a, it's akin to meditation.

572

You have to be very empty and trust

that your mouth will know what to do

573

when it comes to your turn rather than

preparing your next bit of monologue.

574

So it's a, it's a very beautiful,

meditative, calm, empty state.

575

Now, we can't do that all the time.

576

Of course we can't, which is why

I talk about listening positions.

577

There are different places to

listen from, different ways to

578

listen, and the key thing is, is it

appropriate in this conversation?

579

So, you know, I might be making

some food or something and my, my

580

wonderful partner, Jane comes in

and she's got a joke to tell me or

581

something, and that's absolutely fine.

582

I can be carrying on doing what I'm

doing and paying a little bit of

583

attention to it and have a light laugh.

584

But if she came in and she was

upset or she had something deeply

585

meaningful to say, then it would be

a case of, hold on a second, let me

586

just finish this and I'll come and

sit down and really listen to you.

587

So for example, with children.

588

I, I always suggest that people

who've got small children

589

talk to them at a eye level.

590

Either you get down to them or you

maybe sit down, put them on your knee,

591

see your eye to eye with the child, not

towering over them from four feet above

592

them, which is a little bit intimidating.

593

And the best way to get children to

listen, of course, is to listen to them.

594

The more you listen to somebody,

the more you are saying you are

595

important, you mean something to me.

596

And that's why it's a great thing

to do as a leader, you know, because

597

you are actually validating people

and they feel good about that.

598

So listening leaders tend to

create enormous loyalty and, and

599

passionate, passionate engagement

in the people that they're leading.

600

John: It's, reminded me of, this, a lovely

book I read a while back, which I, I

601

probably should revisit sometime soon.

602

you may have come across it.

603

It's by a lady called Nancy Kline

and it's called, time to Think.

604

And, and it's really about this sort

of being silent with people, giving

605

them time to hold space for them and

like give them question and be quiet,

606

listen and wait for them to speak and

get stuff out there and don't interrupt.

607

And, you know, there's amazing what can

come up from those conversations or from

608

people just having the opportunity to know

that someone is really listening to them.

609

I agree that it's a, a very powerful thing

that we can do for ourselves and others.

610

And if we can train young minds to,

to grow up with that skill then, or

611

the more powerful and beneficial for a

better, a better future for, for people.

612

that, that's, that's really lovely.

613

I, I wanna ask you to come back to the,

the TED speaking, 'cause I, I know some

614

people are gonna be, some medicines might

even be cross with me if I don't talk.

615

I don't ask you more about, about the

TED stage, but, What for, what for you

616

is, has been the, the value or the,

the benefit or even the, the joy of

617

being involved with Ted as a speaker?

618

Julian Treasure: Well, my time with my

history with Ted goes back a long way.

619

I think the first Ted I attended

620

Long time ago.

621

I knew Chris Anderson a bit from, we

both have a, a background in computer

622

magazine publishing in the uk.

623

He founded Future Publishing and

then sold it and bought Ted from a

624

guy called Richard Saul Woman, who

started it about 15 years before.

625

So I've been going for a long time,

and then I got the chance to do.

626

What was called a TED University

627

it was the first one, maybe 2009.

628

I, I can't remember exactly.

629

but they had the, the realization that

the people in the audience are just as

630

interesting, if not more so than the

people on the stage, which is true.

631

You know, it is quite

daunting to speak at Ted.

632

You look out, you go,

oh, there's Bill Gates.

633

Oh, there's Jeff Bezos.

634

You know, and so the audience is,

um, not your average audience.

635

And so they said if anybody's got

something that they think would

636

be interesting to say, pitch

it now and we'll give you a, a

637

chance to do it on the TED stage.

638

And that was Ted University.

639

And that was my first talk and I

got a chance to do five in a row.

640

And the last one is the one

that went completely ballistic.

641

They didn't release it for a year

actually, and I thought they hadn't

642

liked it, and then they released

it and it, it, it very quickly

643

started doing amazing numbers.

644

It's now, I dunno, 120 million or

130 million views across the internet

645

in total, which is incredible

and kind of inspiring as well,

646

because it's lovely to know that.

647

Hopefully helping a lot of people

to communicate better, but it was

648

quite daunting doing that one.

649

I mean, luckily it was the last of the

five, so I think by that stage I was

650

practiced in standing on the red dot

and doing the thing well, you can see if

651

you're gonna stand in front of the TED

audience and speak about speaking, that's

652

putting your head above the parapet.

653

You know, I think you,

you'd rather better do it.

654

Well, luckily.

655

John: absolutely.

656

I I, I, I would agree you

did, you did a great job.

657

I, I, it's, it's a very good Ted Talk.

658

You did a presentation and I

trying to think, did I remember,

659

is this real or did I dream this?

660

You did a, I think an unusual

presentation one time with John Ronson.

661

Is that right?

662

Julian Treasure: Yeah.

663

Yes I did.

664

He did a, a

665

John: Where it was like

music involved in it?

666

Julian Treasure: Correct.

667

Yeah.

668

He, he wrote a great book called The

Psychopath Test and the talk we did that

669

was in Los Angeles, actually, that one.

670

We, we co collaborated

with Chris Anderson.

671

He wanted to do what he

called enhance storytelling.

672

So the idea was John, who's a great

storyteller at the front of the stage,

673

and then behind him there were two Baldies

me on one side doing the custom sound.

674

It was all custom designed music

and sound effects, which I was

675

keying in sync with his talk.

676

So didn't matter if he changed

the way he did it, I could change.

677

I, I was just keying each sound as it

was the right moment and the other.

678

Boldy on the other side was my old

friend, Evan Grant, who's doing these

679

incredible visuals that you can see.

680

if you look at that TED Talk, it's

still online, the psychopath test.

681

so it was, I think it was a really

lovely example of how to elevate

682

storytelling with extra media.

683

And in fact, I've got one of the

talks in the session I'm gonna be

684

moderating, curating this year is

going to be a little bit like that.

685

It's the story of sound on earth.

686

A wonderful author, called David Haskell,

and it's going to have a lot of sound

687

where we're going to use the incredible

spatial sound system that's now in the

688

TED Theater, which can place sounds

in three dimensions in the auditorium.

689

Now, you know, if you get, see that

online, and by the way, you can

690

take out a, a relatively low cost

subscription to watch the whole of Ted

691

online, or if you see it

afterwards on ted.com,

692

it'll be in 5.1

693

surround sound.

694

So you could, if you've got that at

home, you'll be able to enjoy that.

695

But I love this.

696

The way of elevating simple

words with sound, particularly

697

I think is, is very exciting.

698

And we now have spatial sound.

699

many people have got

Dolby Atmos at home or 5.1

700

surround sound.

701

It's definitely the way things are moving

in music as well as in film and gaming.

702

John: Yeah.

703

I, I enjoyed it particularly 'cause it

was so unusual to see something like that.

704

And they did hear it in that sort of

way and, and it made it very memorable.

705

And yeah, something I do hope we see

more of because, we should all be,

706

checking these things out as ways to be

more memorable on stage and to create

707

more, perhaps more immersive experiences

for, for our audiences as well.

708

Julian, I know, I know you

offer, coaching as well.

709

Is, is that more in relation to

getting people on TED stages or

710

what is it people would come to you

for, for, for coaching specifically?

711

Julian Treasure: Both dimensions really.

712

in speaking, it tends to be with

somebody who's got something important

713

coming up and wants to refine

their content or delivery or both.

714

So I've worked with TEDx speakers,

I've worked with CEOs who simply

715

want to be better at this skill,

which is very important to them.

716

You know, it's amazing.

717

I do talks, to thousands of CEOs or

hundreds of CEOs and I say to them,

718

how many of you use your voice in work?

719

How many of you find it really important?

720

And all of them put their hands

up 'cause they talk to the media.

721

They stand in front of rooms,

they inspire their companies, they

722

pitch for money, whatever it is.

723

Okay?

724

How many of you have had

formal vocal training?

725

About three.

726

This is like, what if your voice

matters and your outcomes depend on it,

727

which is true for most of us train it.

728

So yes, I do.

729

I do coaching through Zoom,

quite a lot with people who, need

730

to speak well and powerfully.

731

And also I coach people

on listening skills.

732

So leaders, as I said, particularly.

733

Tend to find that quite challenging.

734

So I do workshops, particularly

with leadership teams.

735

I do coaching, and the keynotes have

moved in that direction as well.

736

I think, you know, I tend to get booked

more to speak about listening now because

737

many organizations are starting to

focus on wellbeing and on engagement.

738

And do, do you know the cost of

disengagement is astronomical?

739

There was a study last year which

found that disengagement in America,

740

was costing trillions a year in

terms of, people making mistakes,

741

people not being, you know, people

not being at work, absenteeism,

742

illness, and all sorts of things.

743

Teams, fragmenting.

744

It's absolutely huge.

745

Leaders need to listen and most

of them have never trained in it.

746

So I think this is a big miss

and I think it's, you know, this

747

is the year of listening to me.

748

John: So this is a topic

that is potentially.

749

Of changing, even world changing, that

that is a, a mission you're on, which

750

is, which is Fab and I a hundred percent

behind you with it, Julian as well.

751

You have a community as well,

which some of our listeners

752

may be interested to check out.

753

Can you say a little about that?

754

Julian Treasure: I started a thing

called The Listening Society,

755

and I'll give you a link to that.

756

It's free to join and I've.

757

In there, lots of resources that I've

gathered over the years, like dozens

758

of podcasts, for example, that I've

done, as well as papers and, trainings

759

and all sorts of things, which are I

think, very valuable for anybody who's

760

interested in listening in speaking or.

761

Power of sound.

762

So all those three things are in there.

763

So by all means, come and join

us in the Listening Society.

764

there is a paid membership.

765

It's not much, it's like a pound a day to

access all my courses, including my full

766

seven hour course, how to speak so people

want to listen, which is very similar

767

to the book that, you just mentioned.

768

Johnny had to be heard, but it's in

more detail and it's got dozens of

769

downloadable exercises, that course.

770

So, you know.

771

Take a pick, but come in for

free and enjoy all the resources

772

in the listening society.

773

John: and you mentioned for me that you,

you have an assessment that, you would be

774

happy to offer to our, our listener today.

775

What, what is the, assessment for?

776

What, what, what would

that give our listener?

777

To go and do that.

778

Julian Treasure: I've created, I

think it's rather an exciting tool.

779

It's got four assessments, actually,

two on speaking and two on listening.

780

There's an individual and a

corporate or organizational.

781

Each of those two critical skills.

782

So you can look at your individual

listening, organizational listening,

783

individual, individual speaking,

organizational speaking, and there's

784

a set of questions for each of those.

785

And then you get a score and you

get some feedback immediately.

786

And then if you want, you can go deeper

with feedback from my very highly trained

787

specialist, GPT julian, which will give

you bespoke and highly tailored feedback.

788

And all you have to do to get that is,

enter your name and email address and

789

then off into the future if you like,

790

you'll get newsletters and

things from me as well.

791

John: I, I will make sure that

there are links to everything we've

792

talked about in the show notes or

video description for our listener

793

to go and check all of those out.

794

And, Julian, it's been a real

pleasure to have you on the show.

795

I can't believe it's taken so, so long

for us to make this happen, but I'm glad

796

we finally got to do that and hope that

maybe we'll be able to bring you, invite

797

you back on again in the future as well.

798

Julian Treasure: Always a pleasure, John.

799

Thanks so much for having me.

800

It's been a joy.

801

John: Well, that was Julian and Treasure,

and my biggest takeaway is this.

802

Your audience doesn't

just hear your words.

803

They listen through filters,

culture, mood, expectations.

804

The speaker before you, the time of

day, even the acoustics of the room.

805

If you are not listening to their

listening, you are basically

806

delivering a monologue to yourself,

which is fine if you are rehearsing.

807

Less fine if you are being paid.

808

Now, I do think that some people are

likely to take some solace in the

809

fact that an experienced high level

speaker like Julian has some struggles

810

with using humor in his talks and he

doesn't think he's particularly funny.

811

Now, I think he's kind of

wrong on that and I would love

812

to help him be a bit funny.

813

I'm, I'm with Judy Carter that I

believe that even if you are not

814

funny, you can be funny on stage

and I think it's critical to do so.

815

And you're gonna hear one of my

upcoming guests talking about

816

just how important that is.

817

His name's David Newman.

818

He is amazing.

819

Absolutely blew my mind and I can't

wait to bring you that episode.

820

It's coming soon, trust me.

821

On Friday I'm gonna bring you something

a little bit different, have a bit of a

822

chat with you about whether now is the

right time for you to start a podcast

823

'cause we've talked about podcast guests

before, but we haven't so much talked

824

about podcasts and there are certainly

a lot of speakers, coaches, consultants

825

who think, oh yeah, podcasts would be a

good idea, and then sometimes find they've

826

bitten off more than they can chew.

827

So on Friday, we're gonna dive into

that a little bit more and see whether

828

starting a podcast could be a high value

activity for your business, or whether it

829

could just be a fun procrastination tool.

830

Now, if you want to go deeper into

any of the things we talked about

831

today, I put links in the show notes

to Julian's Listening Society and his

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speaking and listening assessments,

including the tool with individual

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and organizational scorecards.

834

If this episode has helped

you, please do two things.

835

Firstly, make sure you subscribe

so you don't miss what's coming

836

next on professional speaking.

837

Next, share this with a speaker

or a leader who talks a lot

838

but could listen a bit more.

839

You know exactly who I'm talking about.

840

Thanks for listening.

841

I'm John Ball.

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See you next time.