S3 | E7 - Xavier Collins (CEO at Wonder) on AI’s creative revolution, building thriving marketplaces, and reshaping the film industry

Artwork for podcast Diaspora NZ with David Booth

Episode 7 • 18th April 2025 • Diaspora NZ with David Booth • DayOne.fm

Xavier Collins: 00:00

It’s about 90% of scripts never see the light of day. So how do we get more films made? How do we help storyboard concepts? How do we bring ideas to life? Leveraging this technology that’s allowing people to do more with less?

David Booth: 00:10

Yeah, a lot of people are aware of AI and what’s sort of happening at the very surface level. You’re going a level or two deeper in the industry. What are you seeing, how are people reacting?

Xavier Collins: 00:18

Real focus is gonna be, how can we leverage this new technology to push the balance of what’s possible, so areas that we really like to work on. You know, things like dream sequences, surrealism, blending horror films, you know, blending traditional creative methods with the kind of power of AI to unlock that next frontier.

David Booth: 00:36

What are some of the things you’ve seen founders get wrong about seeding liquidity into two or three-sided marketplaces?

Xavier Collins: 00:42

Basically, every industry is about to go through its own kind of internet style revolution as they start to embrace and actually unlock the power of these tools to their full potential.

David Booth: 00:52

Welcome back to Diaspora nz, where we are on a mission to seek out and profile the hidden gems, the best founders, operators, researchers, and emerging leaders of the great Kiwi expat community. Today we are chatting with Xavier Collins. Uh, Xavier is a London born, New Zealand raised founder of Wonder, a brand new AI native creative studio that’s come outta stealth this week with backing from Blackbird Local Globe, and a lineup of world-class angels. Excited to see this. Hit the press, but there’s a lot more under the surface. Um, I’ve been hanging out to get Zay on the pod for a long time. His career reads like a masterclass in tech-enabled marketplaces. He cut his teeth early at Uber and then went on to thar Nexus. Notes a peer to peer learning platform before joining Deliveroo early in the UK to lead marketplace expansion from London to dozens of UK cities and new markets, and then took over the reigns at Touro, launching the car-sharing giant into Europe, and scaling the UK operation from, you know, cold start to $60 million in revenue.

In today’s conversation, we try to weave these threads together. Uh, we talk shop on what makes marketplace work, how to think about the supply side, quality, define and measure the unit user experience and demand due to what it takes to seed liquidity from scratch. He brings all of that and more to wonder where he’s now fusing the storytelling, creative tooling, generative AI models and community.

To unleash a new wave of creativity and let more voices be heard. This is an awesome episode. Excited to hear your feedback. As usual, feel free to forward this onto a founder who’s interested in the space. Hit reply with any interesting expats that should be on our radar. Uh, our mission is to track ’em down and.

Keep them in the loop and the community around, uh, these epic New Zealanders out and around the world. And here’s my conversation with Xavier Collins.

Xavier Collins, it’s a pleasure to have you on the Diaspora Podcast. It feels like a long time coming ago. This one also have Sam Wong joining as a co-host. Really exciting. I know you guys had a journey through start Mate through, uh, your Aussie days together. So wanna blend some of those in, but welcome.

Zev. Good to have you.

Xavier Collins: 02:47

Thanks. Certainly. Thanks S great to be here.

David Booth: 02:49

You know, uh, my favorite first question I want to hear, I mean, once this episode’s released, you’ve just announced Wonder, uh, your new startup. It’s exciting, it’s big round. It’s a big deal. It’s a huge space. But I want you to take us back to the, what is the moment that you realized this was possible?

Xavier Collins: 03:06

Great questions. Yeah. So obviously surreal to be kind of on the cusp of announcing this and. To think this will, it will be live when, when this goes out. Um, very, very cool. Obviously very excited and honored to have Blackbird pile around alongside Local Globe and some great, uh, world-class angels. Yeah, super surreal to see it kind of come to life.

I think the moment we realized we were under something was when I was sitting with my co-founder, um, Justin Hackney, who’s a. He was a kind of traditional filmmaker and creative who went on to work at, at 11 Labs, uh, as their credit director. And we were both sitting at the f the Cannes Film Festival. I was there for my film rights business working on, on buying some, some foreign rights to some American films.

And he was there with 11 labs and we were catching up over like some rose in the sun as, as one does. At the Can Film Festival and he, we were talking about all the things AI, like, you know, I’m a kind of philosophy nerd and we were talking about morality and ethics and what does AI mean, all this kinda stuff.

And then he showed me a video clip of a film he’d made using the tools, um, called Allison Lander, a kind of promotional trailer. Alice in Wonderland, the film. And um, I was just completely blown away. Like it was one of those classic members. I was like, I can’t believe this is, Hey, hi, how have you done this?

And so then and there we, we sent it to the CEO of a big production company who I’d worked with historically. And they came back straight away and they’re like, this is incredible. Could we use this to create a teaser? And so kind of then and there, before we’d even set up a company. We had our first customer and it was a major Hollywood production studio, independent film studio.

So, um, yeah, that was kind of how it all started. It was like a crazy moment of like, I, I just saw it as instantly and was like, this is, this is gonna change the game.

David Booth: 04:56

Yeah. I’ve heard you say before you’re working at the intersection of AI storytelling, um, what’s going on around you? So, yeah, a lot of people will be aware of AI and what’s sort of happening at the very surface level, you’re going a level or two deeper in the industry.

Um, what, what are you seeing? How are people reacting?

Xavier Collins: 05:10

Yeah, so I think, I think the way we try and explain what we do. Is, um, you know, I love analogies, so you have to forgive me for the, um, labored analogies probably throughout this whole podcast. But

David Booth: 05:20

I love them.

Xavier Collins: 05:21

There’s the AI gold rush that’s happening right now.

You’ve got open AI, you’ve got x deep mind, et cetera, et cetera. Extracting the golf, got Nvidia that are selling the picks and shovels. And the way I like to think about wonder is, is where like the jewelers we’re the, we’re the artisans, we’re the, we’re the people who are crafting the gold into a product that people are ultimately consuming.

And when I think about. That analogy, you don’t just make fine jewelry with gold. You know, you actually weave in and blend together different materials and so, you know, we’re pretty passionate about the fact that we think this technology can unlock a. World of creativity and actually support a lot of traditional artists, traditional filmmakers.

And so I think about the jewelry analogy in terms of how can we start to blend in the gold, which is the AI, you know, AI and harnessing some of this technology with traditional creators, traditional storytellers, and, and do multiple things. You know, I think one, it’s about 90% of screwups never see the light a day.

So how do we get more films made? How do we help storyboard concepts? How do we bring ideas to life leveraging this technology that’s allowing people to do more with less? But then the second point is, you know, I think in terms of what we’re seeing is there’s obviously resistance in some parts, but by and large, you know, I think a lot of creative are realizing that this technology can supercharge their potential.

And, um, I think the interesting. Kind of anecdote there is that typically when a new art form comes along, people are really obsessed with, you know, can this capture reality? How can we make this look as real as possible? And so there’s a lot of focus on the uncanny valley and how can we use AI to recapture what we see with our eyes.

I think we’re gonna get over that. And I think the. Real focus is gonna be how can we leverage this new technology to push the bounds of what’s possible? So, areas that we really like to work on, you know, things like dream sequences, surrealism, you know, blending, uh, horror films. You know, blending, blending traditional creative methods with the kind of power of AI to unlock that next.

Frontier.

David Booth: 07:18

There’s two things I love there. One, I mean, lots of it, but in particular, um, I mean the idea that 90% of scripts never see the light of day, and one of the reasons for that would be the costs involved or the sort of the overhead involved in producing a trailer or producing something that a studio might wanna pick up.

You bring down those costs, more scripts, see the light of day, the world sees more creativity. That’s awesome. I, I think the idea of you, you’re right, you’re not trying to. Use this new technology to create what already exists and replace the people that already create what already exists. You’re trying to like, I imagine what’s possible for the new content forms?

Xavier Collins: 07:54

Exactly. I mean, we’re trying to save the digital industry, actually. You know, I think I’ve had a lot of friends who are filmmakers. I mean Justin himself, he was like a young bath to winning filmmaker. He was an actor. Uh, my co-founder, he kind of comes from that world. We’re definitely passionate about seeing these industries flourish, seeing what’s happening.

You know, people are under a lot of pressure to do more with less. It’s getting harder and harder to raise finance for films, and so it’s, it’s not even about reducing costs. Sometimes it’s about unlocking projects. So, you know, one of the things we get when we work with traditional industry is how can we help storyboard a concept, right?

How can we bring an idea to life without having to invest, you know? Hundreds of thousands or millions and basically shooting it and then realizing, you know what, we don’t wanna go that direction. We can kind of be like a partner early on in the creative development process to help map out exactly what this, what this scene could look like, what this film could look like.

So it’s, it’s obviously, there’s obviously a bunch of stuff around, you know, empowering people to do more but less and, and using the tools to, to be more cost efficient. But actually there’s a whole other piece around, you know, just, just helping the, the vision side of that. Process be more efficient and more creative.

David Booth: 09:06

I wanna ask a lot more about the financing. I wanna ask more about the industry and, and what’s happening next. I also wanna go back in time because you were born in New Zealand, you’ve come a long way since then, spent some time in Australia. Um, take us for a really quick run through the timeline and there’s a few points we want to jump in as well.

I, I know that you first crossed paths with Sam and Ozzy, so, uh, take us back there.

Xavier Collins: 09:29

So I get so Slack. I was actually born in London, believe it or not. Um, born in London and then spent the first couple years here where I live now back, and then I moved to, then I moved to France when I was seven, my mom’s Kiwi.

And then I moved from France to New Zealand when I was 12 and went to school in New Zealand, um, and was there for like. About six, seven years. Obviously a lot of my friends are there. A lot of my kind of grew up, grew up there. I think when I think about where I grew up, I said New Zealand. Uh, and then when I left school, I moved to Sydney, went to law school at Sydney University, then got involved in startups.

I was kind of interning at Uber when they were just setting up, handing out flyers and doing Uber ice cream and all that kind of crazy stuff. And then, uh, was lucky enough to meet, um, a guy called Huon and start something called Nexus Noses, which is what took me into start mate. Sorry. I met Sam Wong and spent a bunch of great, you know, time with her and the rest of the style made team kind of trying to build my first business.

Sam: 10:24

I think it’s worth like slow rolling a little bit some of the steps that led to you kind of joining Nexus notes because it’s a not necessarily a non-obvious step to go from like grad at law school, which is very prestigious to I. One of a team of four at a startup. And there was a really interesting story, um, as I recall about like, what, what got you there?

Like why didn’t you end up in a big firm? Why did not any of the other typical paths be the one that you took?

Xavier Collins: 10:56

You obviously know my no story. Well, so, um, it definitely turned almost like on a, on a coin, on a, on a knife’s knife’s edge, like when I was at law school, obviously the big. Thing that everyone aims for is like, can they go work at a top investment bank, law firm, consultancy group?

And I ended up clerking at Freehills, um, funny enough, which I ended up kind of turning down to, to do the whole nexus thing. But I. But even before that, there was, I remember there was like a BCG scholarship, like a Boston Consulting Group scholarship. It was a $30,000 scholarship or, you know, thousands of people applied to it.

And, you know, I never really thought I would have a, have a shot at it, to be honest. Um, but I had a very smart friend who went on to be a partner at McKinsey who kind of coached me through how to answer those, those questions. Um, and so I applied. For the scholarship and, um, ended up going through all the rounds and, and getting to the very final round Now.

About six months earlier, Hugh, the original, kind of the original fantasy, CEO of Nexus, had come to my college and put up a bunch of posters on the walls, talking about how he wanted people to help him get university notes. It was a university notes marketplace where people could upload content and other students could buy it.

And I saw this, uh, poster and I just love the idea. And I obviously, growing up in New Zealand, I was like, I can help. You know, I, I sent him an email straight away. I would love to be part of this. I would love to help launch it in New Zealand. Here’s my details. Um, you know, I can help you get 500 notes, no time at all kind of thing.

Um, I never heard back from him, never heard back. I went into the ether. I never heard anything back. Anyway, so I go through this BCG process and I get to the final rounds and there’s a question and it’s like about a paper pulp mill in Tasmania or something, and it’s all going great. It’s with the managing director of apac, and then there’s suddenly like an algebra question.

My mind just kind of goes blank. And he could tell that I was struggling. He was like, it’s okay, don’t worry. Like just which one is the numerator and which one’s the denominator? And honestly, like I, I, I wasn’t like terrible at Master. My mind just went completely blank. I had no idea. And, uh, uh, I just, I knew I, I knew I screwed it like in, in that moment.

So anyway, the, he, I, he shakes my head. I say goodbye and I’m walking along the street. I remember exactly where I was. I was in Glebe in New South Wales, and the sun was shining. And I get this phone call. It’s the managing director of apac and he is like, look, you did so well. You were in the final two people.

We really like you, blah, blah, blah. But you know, you really screwed up that question. I was like, I know, I know. And he’s like, we can’t, we can’t, we can’t give you the scholarship. Um, but you know, please apply next year, x, y, z. So, you know, I was obviously pretty gutted. I remember just being like, oh, I can’t believe I messed that up.

Um, put the phone down and then five seconds later my phone rings again and I just assume he’s calling me back. I. To be like, but you know, actually don’t worry. Um, and I pick up the phone and it’s, it’s this guy, human’s a good eye mate, very kind of ACA Adelaide guy. Um, and he’s like, he’s like, I got your email.

Loved it was thinking like, do you want to come over this weekend, come to the garage and we can talk about Nexus notes and, and how we can help launch in in Australia and then maybe New Zealand one day. And I thought, you know what? Like, I was like the timing of this cool man, you just nailed it. Like, I was like, I’ll be there.

What’s the address? And the rest. The rest is, the rest is basically history. Most rest of my life kind of turned on that moment and I went down the startup path, um, very thankfully.

David Booth: 14:16

I mean, it feels like fate right? A little bit. Yeah. It’s meant to be

Sam: 14:21

saved from consulting.

David Booth: 14:23

Absolutely.

Sam: 14:24

I know you’re probably gonna shift into Start mate your own Nexus notes, but, um, one of the reasons why I love Zav so much and I’m so excited that he’s become a founder is, um, you know, start Mate was excellent at aggregating super hussy young people, but Xavier took hustle to like the next level and like would love you to share some of the kind of anecdotes of kind of trying to kickstart in the marketplace in.

Texas and. All sorts of places.

David Booth: 14:56

I, I wanna hear those anecdotes and I, and I want, I wanna hang them on kind of this framework as well as advocate. Um, I remember you told me once that in those early days, somewhere along, along the line there was, there was an Uber internship, right? Or there was a first exposure to marketplaces.

There was Nexus notes is obviously a supplier and demand marketplace. And then you’ve gone on to, you know, critical early role at Deliveroo, launching new marketplaces. You went on to Touro leading the entire uk. Business, which is a marketplace. So like there is a common thread here. You have to hustle to start marketplaces.

Right? Tell us about it. Why in form of your enjoyable journey

Xavier Collins: 15:29

you, you definitely have to hustle to start marketplaces. I think that’s a very fair comment. I think, you know, one of the things I learned from Andre, who’s the CEO of Touro, and I think also to be honest, will, uh, from deliveries it says similar things, but Andre kind of drilled it into me the most, is you also just need quality on the supply side to start a marketplace.

So. I could talk to you guys about marketplaces for hours. Um, I love marketplace businesses so much, but it’s, it’s like you need, you need hustle. It’s like you’re getting over the cold start. You really just need to like pour your life energy into like making it happen. Um, but I think you need to have hustle orientated around like a smart strategy.

And, and that to me is I. How do you build high quality supply? And you have to really understand like, what does quality look like in the context of your marketplace. But, um, I can, I can go into that, that later. But yeah, I think, yeah, in terms of star made stories and, and like that kind of going from zero to one.

I think my favorite thing about marketplaces and like that whole experience, it’s actually my favorite startup story, is when we were like, I think of marketplace as like a giant psychological experiment. It sounds crazy, but like you kind of come up with this idea and then you just put it into the wild and you just hope that two completely random people.

Have a meeting of minds, um, and trans and in this case it’s, you know, money is the kind of like signaler of like the, the transaction working. But for me it’s way more about like, do you have an idea where like two completely separate people or, or companies, you know, two distinct entities. Interacts because you’ve created some kind of value and it’s, it’s just this like fascinating idea.

And when I was a start, mate, I’ll go into the Austin stuff, but before I kind of packed, packed my bags and went couch surfing around America trying to start this business, we were in the start mate building back then, which was kind of in near Redfern. And uh, we’d spent like, honestly like weeks trying to build up our supply.

We wanted to launch America and we spent weeks trying to build our supply of. Authors on the platform. You know, if authors for Nexus was like, you know, high quality suits of students who took really good notes, they would put them up onto the platform, other students would wanna buy them, and so I was going onto LinkedIn and to this day, I think the reason I’ve got so many LinkedIn connections isn’t ‘cause of anything I’ve actually done or posted.

It’s more to do with the fact that I was just frantically connecting with students from the University of Austin. But I would connect all these students and I would get on these phone calls and I would pitch them on the benefits of Nexus and try and get them to upload their notes to the site. I remember sitting one day in the office like quite late and just talking to the team and saying like, I just wonder if like.

Anyone will ever buy these notes in America? Like we just had no idea if it would work. You know, we had no idea. Obviously now Charge T’s completely destroyed that business model, but at back in the day, that wasn’t available. And so, you know, we have a strong sense of the idea would work, but there was just no proof.

And I remember as I was saying to the team, you know, I just, I just don’t know if someone’s gonna do this. I was watching Google Analytics and I was watching people on the site just like so obsessively interested on like what was working and. Where people were dropping off. And as I was speaking, I saw someone go from like search note page checkout, and I just remember the exact moment when the first customer in the US bought this set of notes and it was like, I dunno, it was just this incredible moment.

I just got the bug. I already had the bug. But I think as soon as that happened, I never looked back. Um, but in terms, yeah, in terms of the hustle from, from that I then shipped out to Austin. Like I basically couch surfed around. Attack before couch surfing was even really a thing. I don’t even know if it is a thing now, but I was basically living for free on people’s couches.

I ran into one, you know, kept one pretty unfortunate incident with a, uh, a lady who, who wore a panda suit everywhere. Nothing, nothing bad happened, but, you know, it was probably,

David Booth: 19:17

do we need that story for the pod? I think so. We probably not.

Xavier Collins: 19:19

Yeah. I don’t think, it’s not that I think, uh, that, that kind of broke my patience with, with, um.

Sleeping on couches, and after that, the team let me get like a cheap Airbnb. But yeah, I basically, I, I loved it. I loved it. It was, it was all about going somewhere, starting something from zero, um, and just making it happen.

David Booth: 19:37

The anecdote about, or your recollection of that first checkout flow, going from search to notes to, to checkout, um, is there something in that, that sort of you, that you then obviously went into Deliveroo?

It’s all about optimizing the, the. Interaction between an, an individual looking to buy some food, you know, making, minimizing the experience through making sure they’ve got the right, you know, supply on the other side. Or, uh, to what extent do you also need to focus on the supply side. So if you think about that person, they’re, they’re on the demand side of marketplace.

You’ve gotta make sure you’ve got the localized high quality supply on the other side. Um, what are you thinking about first?

Xavier Collins: 20:18

Always a supply. I mean, I’ve never lost that passion or like buzz when the first marketplace transaction happens. I’ve been lucky enough to kind of do it for four businesses, um, you know, many of which went on to become really big businesses.

I think, you know, I joined Deliver on the first 30 people. I was a general manager for those guys. I used to run the south of the UK and then rattle their market launches. But when I joined, I would go to these restaurants in, in the south of the uk and I would go with the backpacks. I would, I’d be carrying the backpacks and I’d be carrying the tablet in the backpack, and I would go and sign up their the restaurant owner who had no idea what delivery was and had every reason under the sun why they didn’t wanna.

Do it, then I would meet the riders in the restaurant to, you know, maximize efficiency and I would give the riders the backpack and show ’em how the app worked, you know, and that would be like a good day. Sign up our restaurant and sign up like three riders in a day. And it would, we used to measure, I used to do a presentation to the team where we would measure on the same axess, the number of restaurants signs and the number of rider sign.

Obviously, you know, I was there for nearly, I was there for three years, and by the end of my time there, it was like, I used to manage over 6,000 rider and we were doing, you know, over 10,000 orders a day. But I remember just in my, in my region, I’m sure it was, you know, multiples of that globally. But, um, I, I still remember like the first order.

In a market, um, the exact same mature obviously. And I think it starts, you know, super tactically it starts with, with high quality supply and deliverers case, it’s a three-sided marketplace. So that’s why I gave that story. You know, you sign up the restaurant, you sign up the writeup, and the customers will come.

I think if you, with something like Deliver, it was easy to leverage the restaurants because ultimately, you know, they have their own customers. Um, and you’re solving for a problem that people already have, which is like, I love this. I love this particular product, I love this restaurant. I wish I could have it delivered.

David Booth: 22:06

So I love the call out. The three sided marketplace. Yes, the two sided marketplace. The tour is two sided ‘cause you’ve really got people who own cars and people who wanna rent cars. Um, what are the things that you’ve seen in your, I know that we’re gonna move into some of your angel investing and, and advising and supporting startups more recently as well.

What are some of the things you’ve seen founders getting wrong about seeding liquidity into two or three-sided marketplaces?

Xavier Collins: 22:26

You know, I think, I think what I always see is people come with like an arbitrary number. You know, it’s, I gonna sound like a broken record. It’s like people, people fail to understand sometimes, like, what is good supply?

Um, and, and so often people will be like, oh, we’re gonna get to a hundred. So Touro for people’s benefit is, is like, it’s basically Airbnb for cars, two-sided marketplace. People who have a car who wanna share it out when they’re not using it can basically rent it to guess, you know, to customers who want to, who wanna book it.

You know, I think there’s, there’s a lot of inclination from people to, to be like, we’re gonna get to a hundred cars in search, we’re gonna get to 20 restaurants in search and then we’re gonna launch. And, you know, it’s like, it’s kind of like a vanity metric or to useful like heuristic, but. It, it, it hides the reality of what a true marketplace business is, which is, have you, have you really understood from a customer’s perspective what quality supply looks like?

Because when you’ve nailed that, you tend to find product market fit, and it tends to, tends to grow exponentially. So the example I always give, you know, at, I’ll give you two, I think a deliberate was about the brand names of the restaurants. You know, we knew as soon as we closed the Wagamama or Nando’s.

Like the local burger joint. There was one in, uh, back in the day called seven Boeing, and I remember that were just like, soon as we got it, we knew we’ve, we’ve sold a problem here, we’ve got, we’ve got the product that people want, we’ll we’ll have product market fit. And I think, you know, different in Touro’s case, but like it was never about getting a hundred cars.

Now there was definitely, there’s definitely considerations that go into things like proximity, convenience, you know, if you don’t have enough sheer volume then you obviously have a problem, but volume alone isn’t the solution. And so we would, we would do things like we’d invest up front in professional photography.

We would personally coach the first host on the marketplace to make sure that they gave an incredible experience. You know, so that’s, that’s, that’s how I think about it. It’s like, it’s not about numbers. It’s, it’s about super, super high quality, really good user experience from a demand perspective.

David Booth: 24:28

Yeah.

I love that framing of, it’s, it’s about quality supply and then it’s about. The photos, it’s about coaching the supplier. I mean, it’s gonna be so different for every business that’s building. It’s also about like, quality suppliers relates to the specific individual customer. So like one, you know, young customer in, you know, university towns quality supplier might be Nando’s.

Whereas, you know, one, you know, more affluent customer in the, you know, middle of, so, you know, Southwest London’s quality supply might be a, a fancy restaurant. I assume that there’ll be some sort of deep analytical. Your tracking of those and targeting and, and you’re, you’re going into a district or you’re going into a new area, you’ll be signing up the, the right suppliers based on the demographic that you’re targeting.

Would that, would that be right or is there something more to it?

Xavier Collins: 25:11

Probably now there’s like deep analytical frameworks and rigor around it. Back then there wasn’t for, you know, it was definitely. More of a gut instinct thing than like a data-driven decision. I definitely evolved over time, don’t get me wrong.

I remember there were many like reports on that. I think the thing that will Shu drilled into me, um, and the company was price selection service. Those are like the three vectors upon which you compete and you succeed. And it was so drilled into me that it was the, I can say this now because I’m sure they’ve changed it.

The wifi password at Touro’s European HQ was price selection service. I wanted to make sure that,

David Booth: 25:47

kind of wanna go check if it’s, if it hasn’t changed it. Yeah,

Xavier Collins: 25:50

no, they changed it.

David Booth: 25:51

Price, election service. Yep.

Xavier Collins: 25:52

If you think about it that way. So, so first of all, price doesn’t mean the cheapest. It means value for money.

You know, is this product good value for money? That’s, that’s a fundamental question. I think founders who are building in marketplaces have to ask themselves and they have to put themselves in the position of the customer. It’s not a race to the bottom, it’s just like, do you represent good value for money selection?

That’s to your point of like, for the university, who wants Nandos or for the, you know, young professional who wants something healthy, um, you know, on a, on a late night, like, do you have a good selection? Um, ’cause selection drives conversion and then service is, is is like convenience or how good is a product?

Like if I click order, like will the food be with me in 25 minutes? And will you be reliable in your timing? And it’s, it’s the exact same for Touro. It’s like, you know, is the car well priced is a good value for money? Um, is there a good selection? Are there, are there Teslas? Are there, uh, like electric cars?

Are there defenders for like the outdoors? Are there people movers and is it convenient? Like, can I press a button and get the car?

David Booth: 26:56

Xavier, I remember when we spoke once about your marketplace’s Yeah. Thesis more broadly. There was this idea that. You can have a, a marketplace that’s, that’s I’d say fungible.

It doesn’t really matter. You know what? Uber picks you up so long as it’s a clean car and it gets you from A to B, it doesn’t really matter which driver picks up your, you know, your Deliveroo. Um, so long as they get it from A to B, um, it does matter. The other end of that spectrum, it really matters. Like if you think about a marketplace for babysitters, say, um, it really matters who the babysitter is.

You really care about who they are. And so as a result of that, you have different marketplace dynamics. In the former case, you know, the. It’s a lot easier to launch and present a lot more option in the latter case. You know, it’s a lot harder, I think, to sort of, to build the, the marketplace dynamic and to, to keep people coming back into using the marketplace for more as opposed to the platform.

Moving off, I’m really curious about how you’ve sort of seen that dynamic play out as you’ve transitioned into this creative theory. I wanna start throwing some, some connections back, because what you’re doing now, it’s somewhat a. Creative marketplace. You’re thinking about, you know, underutilized resources that their scripts, 90% of which are sitting in a dusty drawer somewhere.

And you are connecting those scripts on the people who wrote them with studios and people with the capacity to publish ‘em. But they’re very, very fungible. They’re, they’re very, um, unique. So is there a marketplace element to, to, to wonder in the business you’re building today? Uh, or am I sort of projecting that?

Xavier Collins: 28:24

Um, I’d say, I’d say there’s definitely a marketplace element to, to wonder, but I’d I’d frame it this way. So, so wonder is a, is an AI native creative studio, right? So we’re like, we’re kind of interested in doing a couple of things, the chief of which is developing and producing world-class original content, right?

Developing ip, telling amazing stories, harnessing the power of AI to, to supercharge those stories and to supercharge the creative process that’s. Fundamentally what we’re about. Um, and, and we’re doing that. And here comes the marketplace element underpinned by a community. So my, my co-founder, Justin, uh, built, you know, over three years talking about like, hustle and going zero to one.

He, he invested all of his kinda life savings into creating a community, putting on events around the world, connecting different creatives, storytellers, and AI technologists. Um, this, this community is called Real Dreams. It still runs today. It’s super active. That community, talent and emerging filmmakers is really what underpins wonder, because in essence, wonder is there to basically unearth and discover the top talent, the next generation of filmmaking talent, and help them bring their films to life.

Whether that’s a purely AI concept or it’s a traditional blend of, you know, industry traditional storytelling and, and technology. There’s also, you know, obviously we, we are a business and in addition to the ip, there’s, we think a huge opportunity to kind of service needs. I think this technology is, it’s kind of changing the game for advertising, TV, commercials, music videos, to your point, teasers and scripts and trailers and all that kind of stuff.

And so, you know, a big part of what we’re doing, um, as wonder on the more commercial side is basically. Connecting the best people in our ecosystem, in our community with the right projects. Let’s just say for example, a, a big TV commercial comes in, you know, we will basically, uh, manage and deliver that brief like, like an agency, but an agency that’s, that’s supercharged through not only the technology and the kind of custom models we’re building to, to do that at scale, but um, through the, through the talent.

That we’re plugging into. And, and you’re right, like that talent isn’t, uh, fungible. It’s, you know, it’s like we’re, we’re really focusing on high quality premium talent.

David Booth: 30:50

That’s, I think that’s the thread I was trying to pull out, which is the individual creative, which you end up connecting to a studio to work on the, the specific project.

That’s a, like, that’s such a, um. An important connection and, and who it is and what they’ve done before really, really matters. So there is a, um, a point at which, like, as a marketplace, you’re going to be able to create a huge amount of value by creating that unique connection between them. And then beyond that, you know, maybe they do a lot more work together.

And, and over time it’s harder for you to sort of, to own and, and, and, you know, retain that value on the, the platform or the marketplace. Now I don’t think it matters so much. ‘cause there’s a really, another really interesting trend here, which is you’re not just building AI. Tooling to generate the content, you’re actually generating the content yourself.

I’ve heard you describe this as sort of somewhat of an agency. I’d love you to talk about this whole idea. It’s quite recent. Your technology companies used to be about building technology with AI and the amount that you can actually do. In many cases, you’re seeing people actually provide the end service and in some cases compete with people that they would previously have sold the technology to.

So here you are creating content and selling it directly to the studios, which is, it’s an exciting opportunity. Did, do you see others across sort of other sectors and spaces doing the same with AI? How do you think about you, those trade-offs, the building tech versus the delivering services with the tech you’ve built?

Xavier Collins: 32:16

That’s a great question. I mean, you know, I think first and foremost we’re like an IP generation company. Actually, you know, this, this kind of a cliche expression, but I, you know, I want to be. We want to be AI, we want to be a 24 of the AI revolution, right? We wanna be the kind of next frontier studio blending traditional talent with AI.

Um, and we think that’s gonna allow us to create at scale. Now, obviously, we’re doing a lot of stuff under the hood to make that possible in terms of what we’re investing in and the processes and the, and the, the technology to make creation. Possible at scale. But first and foremost, I think we’re like, how do we, how do we basically shape the future of entertainment, create really high quality IP and be a studio?

That’s, that’s kind of where we’re going at it on the, on the services versus kind of SaaS conversation. Um, I think it’s a really interesting conversation for what it’s worth. And, you know, I think, I think agency is maybe like a dirty word amongst the vc. Community, but I’ve worked for many cash burning, high, high, you know, highly expensive businesses that need like mega scale to succeed.

And I think that we are on the complete cusp of, of, we are in the middle of a revolution right now. And, and I think there’s a couple of things that are important to that. One is that if you were to start an agency today, knowing everything you know about the world, how would you do it? And I think what we’re building, we’re not, you know, we’re not agency first.

It’s kind of an afterthought. But the reality is we’re we’re starting to win and pick up credible projects. Um, and we’re able to do that in a way that’s like AI native, not only in terms of the tooling we use within our own organization, just the way in which we structure the teams, communicate, leverage tools in our own like day-to-day efficiency, but also in terms of the tools that we are leveraging to create the end product.

Honestly, I think it’s, it’s, it’s a radically different business models of the existing agencies today, which are obviously multi-billion dollar companies. So, you know, I think there’s a huge opportunity there. And I think just, just abstracting out from wonder in the space that we particularly play in, you know, I think that, uh, that it, it is, it is the new internet.

And I, I can think of sort of, um, you know, to take it back to Deliveroo and restaurants, you know, when the internet started, how many years later was it when every restaurant suddenly had a website? And how many years after that was it that every restaurant was then doing delivery? You know, I think we’re, we’re literally at the very beginning of the new internet, uh, where there’s a, there’s still actually just a handful of people that are actually using these tools to their full potential and maybe not even then, uh, but in terms of the broader economy and actually like leveraging the power that’s already been unlocked today, uh, we are, we are nowhere near and I think.

Advertising is just one. Or you know, just media game creation, film creation, advertising. It’s just one of those vectors, but in reality, I think basically every industry is about to go through its own kind of internet style revolution as they start to embrace and actually unlock the power of these tools to their full potential.

David Booth: 35:24

I love that. Sort of tracing the possible outcomes. Yeah. At one end you’ve described it. So that’s basically an agency, but it’s AI native, which it’s gonna be able to create as much more content, unique content, much cheaper than the market, and that’s a great business. Right the other end, you think about, um, what’s the compounding advantage you could build with, you know, your own use of technology in innovative ways?

And the example that came to mind was Pixar. Like Pixar is a huge business because they figured they pioneered a new technology in the era. It was animation, toy story, you know, the early, early animated flick. Um, and they u they didn’t sell their animation capacities to others necessarily. They used that and they, they’ve sort of pioneered this whole new category.

I’d say perhaps the, the environment they were operating in is different today. AI companies are reliant heavily on underlying models, so there’s, there’s a lot of unique and creative things you can do with the underlying model. But ultimately, somebody else of AI, andro, whoever it might be, is building that or 11 labs.

And you’re building the piece on top. I’m curious how you think about that dynamic as like you are building in an environment where the tools available to you and everybody else changes rapidly. What are you doing to ensure that your unique advantage, your defensibility, everything that makes Wonder special, stays ahead of those underlying models and sort of the broad capacity they provide?

Xavier Collins: 36:49

It’s a great question. Um, I actually think that’s one of our superpowers, the fact that the space is changing so quickly. We are entirely laser light focused on the craft. Uh, we want to be to the jewelry analogy I gave earlier. We want to be the, we want to be like the best artisans. We wanna be the best craftsmen in terms of taking the underlying properties, the underlying technology, and, and bringing something to life.

And that necessitates being across the changing models. It means being on the kind of bleeding edge of what’s happening. Now we’re very lucky because. You know, we’re obviously backed by the founder of 11 Labs. We’ve got a strong partnership with them. We’ve got a strong partnership with Free Pick. Um, where would, you know, we’ve the head of startups that open AI as an investor.

Um, same with, with, uh, DeepMind. So we’ve got incredible ecosystem kind of play and we’re plugged into a lot of the major kind of underlying AI businesses, but we’re really focusing on. The stuff that, that they aren’t building, which is, you know, the craft of taking that underlying product, using all of them to create something ultimately that people want to consume.

And, and providing that to the kind of traditional creative agencies in industries. So, um, I think the fact that it’s constantly changing is actually one, you know, just in terms of the time we’ve been doing this, when I see the quality of the output, the stuff that we’re actually creating, it’s just, it’s just growing exponentially.

So. I think we’re a beneficiary. That’s a tailwind for us in terms of the output. And it’s also a bit of a moat in terms of the fact that it, it’s, it’s hard to stay on top of all this stuff. And I think the reason that the community is so powerful is one of the, one of the main reasons that our community is so active is because the world leaders in the space are constantly posting updates, posting new tools, discussing what’s happening here.

That conversation’s happening within our business. So I think we’re extremely fortunate to kind of have that, that access to understand like, these are how the tools are shaping the world, and this is what’s coming down the pipe. And then leveraging it to hold, ultimately create like a great product for consumers

David Booth: 38:56

if there’s a, if there’s a revolution going on around us in every industry.

If you couldn’t work on this problem, if you couldn’t work on advertising and building the business, you are, what’s the next most interesting space that you’d be applying your, your skills?

Xavier Collins: 39:10

You know, it’s funny, like I, I don’t have a good answer ‘cause I’m just so excited. I’d say advertising is, is a sub-product.

We’re literally shaping the future of entertainment. And I just think like, and, and the thing is, I, I, I love storytelling, as you can tell. Um, I love storytelling. It’s all about storytelling ultimately. I think, you know, a lot, many things in life come down to storytelling and the fact that we get to. Shape that work on it, day to day work with incredible writers and storytellers to, to bring visions to life.

I, I personally, I honestly, it’s hard to think of anything else I wanna work on. Maybe music, obviously I love music. I, that’s like a passion project for me, but I’ve kind of done my time as a mercenary and I’m excited to do my time as a missionary. You know, I was, I was a mercenary at Deliveroo and, and Touro, even though I was.

You know, I was very grateful for my opportunity to work there, and I, I loved the people there and I had a great time. I was building ultimately someone else’s dream, and I wasn’t that excited about car rental or food delivery, but the power to kind of craft the future of storytelling and work with amazing creatives.

It’s, it’s so much fun.

David Booth: 40:25

That’s awesome. How about the, the financing piece of this puzzle? So if you are all in on the creative on the future of entertainment, you’ve also kind of the tire thread that we haven’t got to talk about yet in here, Lumira Ventures, if I’m pronouncing that right, was your, your fund that is inve buying, investing in film rights.

So you’ve had, you’ve now got the perspective on sort of the front end of the stack. Creating the entertainment and also on the back end of the stack financing the entertainment. Um, can you give us a quick, you know, backstory on Lumiere and correct my pronunciation and also, um, where’s that piece going?

So how, how do you think about the future of financing? Are you gonna continue doing that piece as you, as you go forward?

Xavier Collins: 41:05

Yes, correct. So Lumia like, uh, lumia like rice in, in French, like Lumia brothers who like apparently invented film. But, uh, yeah, so it’s a great question. So the, the Lumia stuff actually is what convinced me with Wonder.

We were on to something that was gonna change the world, um, because I was seeing firsthand the challenges in the financing world of film.

David Booth: 41:29

Can you describe those? Like, like how is a film finance quickly? The, the 1 0 1 version,

Xavier Collins: 41:34

of course. Yeah, I mean the, I mean, there’s many different ways films are finance, but the specific place that we play in as, as Lumia Ventures and to ask to kind of answer all the questions in one that’s run by a very good friend of mine, my business partner, Richard Losier, French guy, hence Lumia, uh, who, who kind of manages that business day to day.

So it will continue to run, but you know, I’m kind of a back backseat. Driver, so to speak. But that particular business in terms of how we finance the films, you know, obviously I was very lucky to partner up with rash who, who’s been in the industry for like 30 plus years, kind of does, does this in his, in his sleep and, and it’s a very simple business model.

We will focus on a particular type of film where we know that we know it well, we know the space and that’s typically a kind of action film. It’s from a large independent producer, typically out of, you know, Hollywood, but we can, can be anywhere. Um, but we’ll focus on, you know, one of our first film was Arcadian with Nick Cage.

We just did a Stallone film called Armor. We just did a a Daddy Die film, which is coming out soon. Very exciting. But, um, it’s a very simple kind of financing model. When if, if they’re not a major, major studio, one of the ways in which a independent studio will raise. The finances to make the film is they will carve out certain territories and they will pre-sell the rice.

So gets, it gets a little bit complicated, but

David Booth: 43:04

like geographic territory. So you mean like you’ll pre-sell the rights for New Zealand or Australia or something?

Xavier Collins: 43:10

Exactly. And so if you imagine it this way, like the film’s gonna cost 20 million to make, um, they’re gonna raise that money from like a, a bank, uh, yeah.

Film financing bank. Um, but the bank is gonna wanna know that there’s some revenue kind of guaranteed in the tank before they’re released in the 20 million. And so what they’ll do is they’ll take a concept, a script, a teaser, they’ll go to one of the film markets and they’ll pre-sell the rights to that film in that market like New Zealand or France or whatever it is.

For a certain amount of money. And so, uh, we Lumiere kind of plays in that space of buying the rights or taking, you know, quite a bit of risk upfront, but, but buying the rights for a certain territory. And then when the film is made, owning those rights, but often, you know, we would look to sell the rights, you know, flip the rights to a Netflix or an Amazon, or a Sky or a Canal plus.

So it’s kind of, we’re in the, we’re in the moving business of the owning business, so to speak, but. From, from that perspective, you know, I was seeing some of the, I was seeing the challenges of like, I’ve seen so many pictures, like being an investor, you see so many pictures of startups and you know, it’s like there are actually so many company, good companies that don’t get funded.

Um, and so there’s the inverse, there’s a lot of bad companies that do get funded.

David Booth: 44:23

Lot of bad movies that get thundered as well, right?

Xavier Collins: 44:25

Exactly. Exactly. But you know, what I was seeing firsthand was like there was so much talent, there was so many opportunities. They couldn’t get funding, couldn’t get made.

And the ones that did get made, like films notorious to go over budget, there’s, there’s so much wastage. And so it kind of, you know, I just know enough people in the industry who are all kind of aware that they, they’re being forced to do more with less on a faster time scale. Um, but no one wants to, no one wants to get rid of the traditional craft.

No one wants to replace, you know, actors, the, the actual, like beauty of the art form. But if there’s. Areas where you can enhance the process, you know, make it more efficient. You’d be crazy not to because the industry’s kind of in this existential threat. You know, unless you are a major, major studio that’s prepared to lose money for years and years and years.

David Booth: 45:19

So, so Lumiere to, to bring that to a point, buys the geographic rights to distribute a, a film. And then to do so, you’re gonna have to understand the quality of supply, obviously on one side, and its ability to resonate with a geography or a specific demographic on the other. And if you get it right, you’re able to sell those rights on to someone that pays a higher price once it’s been de-risked.

If you get it wrong, you might lose some money. And across a portfolio, you’re making a bet that. The number of wins outweighs the number of losses with some kind of ROI. Um, it’s kind of a venture capital portfolio for geographic film rights on track.

Xavier Collins: 45:55

Yeah, Soly nailed that. Now I’ve explained that business to many people, and that is the best.

Summary I’ve ever got. That was very good.

David Booth: 46:02

And you know this, but there’s something about like drawing comparisons, anecdotes, yeah. Between creative and technology. I think that these worlds are just colliding and you’ll see this more than anyone. The process of starting a startup is somewhat similar to the, you know, the process of becoming a songwriter to becoming a film producer.

It’s all about like. How do you break through the noise?

Xavier Collins: 46:24

Storytelling.

David Booth: 46:25

Yeah. How do you refine storytelling? How do you refine your product to resonate with a given audience? Once you have, how do you get distribution? Once you have, how do you keep and build and compound more products? Once you have, how do you retain the cool is the fame, you know, goes your head or not.

It’s fascinating to follow.

Xavier Collins: 46:41

So I think it’s starts with storytelling, you know, across all three, can you craft a story that people are gonna believe in because of the beginning? That’s all. You can go on belief, right? There’s nothing, there’s nothing other than belief. So you’ve gotta try and manufacture belief outta nothing.

And the only way to do that is through powerful storytelling. Then it goes to product market fit, which is where, you know, it’s kind of in the lap of the gods now. You either survive long enough to figure it out or you get lucky. But you know, if you can get to product, product market fit is the next big existential hurdle that people must overcome.

And then the one after that is scale. And I’ve never gone past that. Uh, I’m guessing the last one is like legacy or like reinventing yourself or Innovator’s Dilemma. You know, you get, you hit scale and then you probably become. Bureaucratic and slow moving and obsolete. So how do you always keep reinventing?

That would probably be the last one, but I would say storytelling, product market fit and scale are like the three things that, that all three kind of have in common and, and like existential hurdles that each category’s gotta, gotta leap if they’re gonna get to be a success.

David Booth: 47:44

There’s different horses for courses and, and I think the legacy piece is a different persona, at least for me anyway.

I feel that the early stages are more of a draw. Um, though that sAId, uh, founder mode is all the rage these days. And you know, in fact maybe to reinvent yourself at scale, there, there will be an interesting skill set to develop, but you get to do it this time round with wonder. Um. Tell me, uh, to kind of, to perhaps overuse this metaphor, um, you were talking to somebody young, very early in their career.

They are a startup. Uh, what are they doing? Uh, sorry to be clear, career advice for the young person considering themselves a, a creator or, or a startup founder or whoever they might be, you know, coming outta college.

Xavier Collins: 48:26

Um, so this, I’m gonna steal this from Naval, um, who is incredible. Uh, but basically he said something like.

AI is not gonna take your job. Someone using AI is gonna take your job or someone using AI better than you is gonna take your job. And I think that is, that is certainly true for the, for the, for the short to midterm. Uh, and, and so I. That would be my advice is, is just, is just lean in, lean in on this technology.

I think there’s a couple, I mean, I, I actually wasn’t, um, I was just extremely, I thought it all passed me by, if I’m honest. I was like, I had my time in the sun. I, you know, I was, I was kind of there when mobility was blowing up and, and food delivery, you know, I kind of had my fun. Um, and I was like, this AI thing’s too hard.

You know, there’s too many other people who are more expert than me. Then I was just so lucky to meet my co-founder Justin, who’s, who’s truly like a visionary and, uh, just, just in infectious energy with, with and, and optimism with the tools and technology. And he’s, he’s taught me a lot and I think just so grateful that I’ve been able to like, fall into this industry now and, and learn it.

And I think my lesson there is like for the, for the older people, but also for the young ones. It’s not too late. Like the, I got asked this the other night at a, at a dinner and I said. You know, the way to think about it is the card, the cards have just been reshuffled. So the people who are the most against this, the most, the most, um, anti technology for the most part, are the ones that have the most to lose, right?

Because they’re the beneficiaries of the current power structures in society are the beneficiaries of years of hard work of. Honing their skillset or honing their network or honing their, you know, uh, modus operandi in a world where AI wasn’t part of the equation, but all of a sudden, you know, this, this internet 2.0 has come along and all the decks have just been reshuffled.

So for young people, I think it’s an incredible opportunity because you have the, you have a once in a generation opportunity to basically rapidly escalate. Rapidly accelerate, sorry, through your career. Because so many of the new jobs that are gonna be so important in the next five years haven’t even been created yet.

And they’re gonna go to the people that lean into learning these tools. And I can give you just one example from, um, the way that we’re currently running the company. So, uh, you know, we have, we have someone working for us called Benny, uh, who, who actually was an architect by training. Incredibly smart guy.

He has just for whatever reason, like really lent into the tools, um, and is kind of a jack of all trades with like the different like, creative elements of AI, but is also like incredibly good at vibe coding. Um, all self-taught, all self reinvented, and um, he’s just so talented that we’ve just created a role in our company called the AI Architect.

Um, and I really do think that this is gonna be a new blueprint for how people are gonna build successful companies. Because when I was, you know, coming up through Deliveroo and, and Touro, we would always be so frustrated the, the length of the product cycles. You know, can we get this on the product roadmap?

Then we need a team of designers. Then it needs to go to engineers. Uh, you know, we are literally prototyping, um, the Wonder App or the Wonder Platform, uh, for our community in, in real time. In real time and is being led by Benny, our AI architect, and very cool. You know, without giving too much of the secret source away, the idea is that he is going to basically scope out the architectural plans for what the platform could look like, and then we’re gonna partner up with an engineer that can then go in and actually solidify those plans.

But that in love itself would’ve been impossible three years ago. So for the younger people listening, I would say like, you’re on the cusp of. Once in a generation opportunity to completely, uh, leapfrog the people above you. Just lean into the tools.

David Booth: 52:35

It’s really powerful. It’s a really good place to, uh, to bring this one in to land as well.

Um, with my final question, what can we do to help you? What asks do you have of the diaspora? Uh, are you hiring? Neither you out in the wild with Wonder announced. Um, are you hiring, are you looking for creative directors, producers, people that are, you know, looking to work with you, partner with you? What, what are the, the asks?

Xavier Collins: 52:59

Well, thank you very much for giving me the platform. Um, I’d say, uh, depends on where we’re at when this thing goes live, but currently we’re, we’re kind of pausing certain hires until we’ve gone live and obviously wanna leverage the. It kind of buzz that comes with that. But we’re looking for a founding engineer, um, potentially one, one other engineer.

Um, we’re looking for, uh, chief of staff. We’re looking for anyone who’s like, really passionate about creativity and filmmaking, who has very strong grasp of the AI tools. So yeah, we are, we’re, we’re hiring basically. And if you are passionate about the mission, and you are one of these people that I was talking about who’s kind of just recently re-skilled in the world of AI.

We’d love to speak with you. Um, and then other than that, you know, I think just, just putting the word out there, like, you know, if you see content that you love, we’re gonna be releasing. I can’t say too much about it, but we’re gonna be releasing, um, some of our own short episodes, films as part of an anthology soon.

So I. Definitely check those out. Uh, when, when they, when they come out, we’d love, we’d love the views and the feedback.

David Booth: 54:05

Excited to do that. Um, z that was fun. Thank you, sir. That was good. Uh, yeah, excited to see this out in the world, and we’ll have to do this again in a, in a year or two’s time to check on the, the progress.

Um, check on the, the state of the world at that point as well.

Xavier Collins: 54:19

Hopefully, hopefully we’re all still in drops and. Yeah. Yeah.

David Booth: 54:22

Oh, you will be, you will be. Um, thank you sir. We’ll, we’ll speak soon.

And that’s a wrap. Thanks for listening. As a quick reminder, make sure you hit subscribe over your favorite podcast player so you can keep getting stories like this, landing your feed every Friday. Help how you through those weekend shores. For my day job. I’m an entrepreneur in residence and an investor at Blackbird Ventures.

We are back in best Kiwi and Aussie founders no matter where they’re in the world. Back home with global ambitions or out there building generational companies. My personal sweet spot is pre-seed and seed. I like to say there’s no check too early, so drop me a line anytime. That’s Debo at Blackbird vc.

This episode was produced by day one, the podcast network for founders, operators, and investors, and as part of the Day One network. Thanks again. Look forward to seeing you back next week.

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