In this episode, Alex and Camie discuss how the traditional lecture is too often the default learning activity used by instructors. In some cases, the lecture makes sense, but in other instances, there are many other active learning techniques. We suggest alternatives and challenge instructors to rethink how to teach with the lecture in their classes.

References:

How Teaching Should Change, According to a Nobel-Prize-Winning Physicist

A Nobel Laureate's Education Plea: Revolutionize Teaching

Large-scale Comparison of Science Teaching Methods Sends Clear Message

Active Learning | Cornell University

I'm going to use very light air quotes here. No one can see this, but they're they're soft air quotes this learning myth to me is the least mytha because I don't know how much. It's actually something that is proposed and perpetuated. It just is something we default to often in learning activity and how we approach learning.

Yeah.

Yeah.

But that's not the case for all.

But it does find its niche, probably dominating more often than it needs to.

Welcome to the pedagogy toolkit. Today's episode, Amy and Alex discuss our myth takedown #2 the modern day lecture. In some instances, this is a great methodology for learning, but in many instances we may default to it when there might be better.

Active learning protocols.

To put it in place, stay tuned.

We were talking about how you were, you know.

What was it? Funky and fresh these days. Cami. What? What were you watching the other day that made you think this is? This is funky.

And fresh. I'm I'm I'm so.

Were you watching?

Funky and fresh and home with the youth I was watching.

Sense and sensibility.

Which version?

You know I can't.

Even remember, I love them all, and sometimes I'll watch them like I'll watch one version and then I'll watch the next version just to compare the versions. But I forget which version is the one that I saw this one thing in.

Yeah. Do they do the? Is it like how pride and prejudice has the like long, a long BBC anthology of it, and then another is like a movie version I'm more familiar with the prime.

Yeah, some of them do.

Have that.

These ones, yes.

Yeah, some of them do have that. So there are movie ones. There are series ones and there are sometimes multiples of each. Pride and Prejudice does that. You'll also notice it with little women and and now and of Green Gables, surprisingly.

And then, Jane Eyre.

And the Green Gables, actually, I think it's almost always a series. I don't know if I've ever seen it as a full movie.

Hmm.

That's interesting. Anything about that before? So I was watching sensibility the other day and one of the scenes actually reminded me of a conversation we had at work.

Because one of the sisters, you know, had gone out in the rain looking for her former.

Potential suitor and.

She, you know, had been heartbroken by him, so she just was looking longingly across the way at his home.

But of course she got in.

The rain and.

That made her mortally ill, and so she was in bed. The doctor came and.

He tried bloodletting on her.

And bloodletting, if you haven't heard of it before, is just where doctors used leeches or sometimes razors to get blood out of a patient. It was supposed to release the bad blood that was causing the sickness, so that potentially they could get better.

It reminded me of a conversation that we had the other day when you were listening to a podcast and you had this one person who I think was a guest on the podcast make kind of a startling state.

Yes, it was actually this podcast that broke open the discussion that led to this myths takedown series that we're in right now.

And it was a Ed Surge podcast where they were interviewing Nobel Prize laureate at Doctor Carl Wieman, who was a Nobel Prize winner for his work in physics decades ago. But he has since since over the last many years, focused more on educational research and learning theory.

And he described the modern day lecture as the equivalent of academic bloodletting. So I think what he really means by that, let me just try and pull up an actual quote, the large college lecture, the cornerstone of undergraduate education in America and much of the world today, is similar to bloodletting.

He says you give people lectures and some go away and learn this stuff.

But it wasn't what they learned from a lecture. They learned it from homework from assignments. When we measure how little people actually learn from a lecture, it's just really small. And so I think the equivalent that he was making in the point in using bloodletting as the analogy is there.

May have been a.

Small segment of illnesses or diseases where bloodletting might actually be beneficial or positive, but really bloodletting back in the 19th century and then way back to ancient.

History was a common practice and for the.

Amount that it was used, the proportion of it actually being beneficial was actually really, really small. And so he's making that similar point with the college lecture the the degree to which the modern lecture is used as a default.

Method of of learning or teaching is probably disproportionate to its actual benefit that it has in the classroom and in the learning outcomes for students. It has a place and it has its needs, and we want to make sure that we're not.

Stepping on anyone's toes, who who does lecture, who likes to lecture and is a good lecturer and and engaging with their students and and connecting with them?

So, but and there may be better learning outcome or better practices that align better to learning outcomes versus defaulting to.

A lecture to convey information to a student.

Right. So let's let's define what we're talking about.

When we say lecture.

Because lecture doesn't mean every time you get up and talk in front of your students, which is sometimes what we think of it as they're there are different ways that you can lecture or convey information. And in this particular conversation, when we say lecture.

Correct.

We mean that one way communication.

By a subject matter expert over a prolonged time that focuses on a particular subject matter or subset of topic within that subject matter. And so we're talking about kind of that you.

Know if you're.

Lecturing to your students for an hour and that is the only interaction that.

Happens in your course.

Right.

That.

There are ways that discussing and speaking upfront to your students can be beneficial, but there might within that span of time be.

Other ways to implement in that hour time frame rather than speaking about the subject matter for an hour, research is showing that Doctor Wieman has done and others that there could be actual.

Pedagogical implementations, learning activities that would supplement or complement some of that spoken lecture material in a way that enhances learning and creates more of an active learning environment that leads to the students outcomes improving versus just the speaking about the.

Material.

As that subject matter expert alone for that hour, for those 30 minutes.

Right. Because that's just passive.

Learning right? You're not doing anything with the knowledge you're only hearing it, and sometimes even though you may take notes, you may not even see everything that you need to see in learning that we talked before about learning styles. How were all of these types of learnings?

Yes.

So the audio is helpful, but also if you have other ways that students are interacting with that material.

Feel it helps them retain that knowledge and kind of implant it in their brain a little bit more than if you're just having them listen to you and do nothing with it.

Yeah. And probably another the deeper issues at hand when it comes to.

It's not that the use of a lecture is inherently bad unto itself, it's just a matter of what. How do we ensure the quality?

And the capability of that lecture to deliver the the needed learning outcome and so even reading more of layman's research, you know, there was one quote with the fact that most colleges and universities don't even bother to systemically measure teaching quality is one of the biggest problems festering in higher education. Another kind of deep dive on that was the quality of teaching is not something that university.

Administrators are rewarded for, and correspondingly know or care about, women said. If the improved quality of teaching improved by 100%.

And that in that process reduce the amount of research funding they did and published by 1%. They would be penalized since the latter is more carefully measured and compared across institutions, whereas the former is never measured. So he kind.

Of.

Basically brings to the point that because of that, there's like a skewed rubric by which university instructors.

Sometimes you measured and so there's not necessarily an incentive to change the pedagogical delivery system in a way that might benefit both the learner and the instructor, because that's not what the instructor or the the the faculty member.

Is being encouraged to pursue. Most often, they're encouraged to pursue publication and research. And Fairpoint, you're a research university that's part of your bread and butter.

But you're also there to to teach. It's it's a both hand and it's it's not. He's just saying that the the scales are.

Or.

Over balance or overweighted on one side right that touches on a point that I think the culture and the history of academia.

Versus the other.

Still bears in.

Reality today.

Much of its delivery of.

Of learning and information comes from that Sage on the stage perspective and there is value in that right. There is the reality that I think is good for students to come in humbly to want to learn from people who have been sitting in ideas and sitting in research and sitting in concepts.

Sometimes decades longer than you and you have something to learn from them.

At the same time, not everyone's going to learn just by listening to the sage on the stage. Repeat, sometimes at A at a very advanced level.

Beyond the level that an incoming new student to the concept is going to be able to pick up immediately, because sometimes when someone's been sitting in a concept or sitting in a subject matter for 10/20/30 years, you can forget what it's like to be new to that material and what it's like to.

Sitting to that and so moving from providing the opportunity for someone to passively consume your knowledge, to get to active learning, how do we encourage the active learning process for students? And that's women talks about. He doesn't want to see himself as a sage on the stage. He wants to see himself as more of a.

A guy.

Made through the discovery process for students when they come into his subject matter.

What do you mean by Sage on stage?

And this is a good question. This is actually something James and a few others were were tossing around recently, and James brought it up. So I'm going to throw him under the bus if this comes back at us, but it comes down to the idea of mastery.

What does it truly mean?

To have mastery of a subject.

That's.

Is that even possible? Truly in any subject area?

You know, I think that's where.

I think humility is actually of of great virtue and benefit.

Because.

We all should continually be students of our subject matters and of our disciplines and what we're learning and.

What I mean by the sage on the stage and again I'm borrowing that phrase from from Wegman's research and interviews, just this idea that there is a person who holds mastery or a person who holds advanced standing and knowledge in a subject matter.

We're disciplined and.

You're coming in essentially just to absorb as a sponge from that, that wisdom. Imagine that in any type of discipline. But I mean, I'm I came from my undergrad in history and that's mine. I just I think of it in a.

And this little anecdotal experience, where I wrote down what in my mind, if I was teaching a history class, say an American history class, we were doing a unit on the civil War, what would the students learn from more and what would they retain more information from? Would it be from listening to me talk about the the Battle of Antietam for 30 minutes and just?

Drop down notes? Or would it be?

I create a space for half an hour where they break into groups and research do little micro projects where they gather their information. They research what this particular general did. They research military tactics on this side. They research the weather for that day and then they come together and put together an entire report.

And demonstration as a class doing that jigsaw style of learning and so from that even simple anecdote, I could take the route of talking for 30 minutes and there would be some information glean and there would be some learning that would take place.

But by leveraging other opportunities of including different active learning practices, the sons are probably going to take away more from that because they're not just getting it from 1 vantage .1 person and one.

Delivery style. They're going to get multiple methods.

Right. And in an online course, this may look a little bit different because.

Because.

Sometimes in online courses, yes, you have a lecture. You have a quiz. You might have a discussion, you might not, and then you have like a multiple choice large midterm or final, or both and. And so in an online course, what this looks like.

Is breaking.

Up that initial lecture video into micro topics, which we've talked about before, it could mean adding in other videos that you found helpful. Maybe Ted talks or a crash course video, you know, something from PBS or BBC. There are lots of.

Yeah.

Resources out there that are already built that may be talking about that same topic from a different perspective than yours, which which can be helpful or maybe.

Which just defined or, you know, talked about in just a little bit of a different way. Sometimes students connect to that.

A little bit, I think honestly to the online perspective, even if you are very attached to the idea of lecturing because.

You're passionate about your subject and you, you know a lot about it and you want to convey that knowledge and that information, which is good, you're you're leveraging your your expertise in a way that benefits others. That's that's awesome.

The online space, though, provides such a more dynamic way to convey that lecture information versus when I'm face to face in a classroom. There's only so many ways that I can lecture about that material, whereas.

For instance, I'm I'm working in a in a course right now where we're.

Building concepts in real estate and the instructor wants to record videos where she's speaking. She's lecturing in a sense, she's conveying basics in a one way format, but she wants to go to different locations.

To real estate properties and to take measurements and to talk about different edifices and aspects of the home and really convey that in a way that's much more dynamic than just a talking head or just showing slides on a screen while she's standing in front of the class and that.

You know you can deliver that in a face to face lecture as well. If you build that material. But in an online space, it's just kind of naturally there for you. So you really have the opportunity to be more dynamic with your lectures. You don't have to, you can be sitting as a talking head.

And that's beneficial sometimes because you just need that sole focus on on a particular concept. But at the same time too, you can, you can.

Get creative.

And that that could really enhance the learning.

It is good for students to see your face every now and then on a video, but also, yeah, like there's so many different ways to conceptualize this information that you are an expert in and different ways to show people what it is that why limit yourself and even in a face to face course, you know.

Flipped classroom. If you had the students.

You know, go through these lectures and readings and things before they got to class so that they were prepared to do an activity that's still one way you could utilize this online platform and be just better resource to have that dynamic moment in your classroom with this information conveyance.

Right. Because that's the point of a lecture is to convey that information. And so if we can do that in a way, you know, every time we talk about this, this is really, this is how my silly brain works. But I keep thinking about vitamins and supplements.

Because you'll have like certain ones.

That let's say you have a regular vitamin C, right? You can take the vitamin C, But there are some people who would benefit because of a genetic mutation from having a liposomal vitamin C that is absorbed more through your fat than your belly, and so.

You have these.

Little things that are added to vitamins or changed about their structure a little bit to make them more available and beneficial to the person who is taking them and that's what this is getting rid of. Your lectures is just like going from a regular vitamin to a bio available, right?

Or instead of just taking those vitamins, you could just.

Bloodlight, but that that's where the analogy kind of can can.

We can kind of see the hilarity of it. It's well if we have these better alternatives or if we have these alternatives that could really make it more dynamic and more targeted and practical for different learners or for different people based on their, you know, and you're using your analogy. This vitamin would be better for this patient.

Or this person.

But if we say, well, I'm.

Just gonna go blood let it's.

Like.

Well, why would we default that? I don't know how that would work, but it might.

Maybe it would, but.

It might work on a certain number of of people and patients for this particular issue, but probably not most of them and probably not in all circumstances. And so that again that's that's why we've been uses that.

Alarming and.

I think that hits right, right on it. Yes, there are more targeted methods and approaches and I think this might be a little bit of a tangent, but I I love the flipped classroom concept. I think personally.

So many courses, especially in the in the face to face realm, would benefit from a flipped classroom.

Model.

Where you as a student are doing some of the passive consumption of information on your own through the facilitation. I think our LMS's make that so much easier now to to just stack that material in a way that students can systemically work through it. Maybe they retain some, maybe they get it to an extent, but then they get to come to class alongside other learners alongside the subject matter expert.

And then really dig in and go deeper. And then obviously in online space, you're facilitating that still asynchronously it just.

Looks different in how you deliver it, but I.

I'm all for.

These alternative delivery methods, especially as technology, allows us the capability to shift the lecture into a different form of delivery, and with it really opens up more space.

For us to actively engage in learning during that valuable classroom time or that asynchronous learning environment.

Right and.

And you know, in in other episodes we have and will again get into the different ways, but in different activities you can use to engage. Once students have this knowledge. But just talking about that conveyance of knowledge in general. Yeah, there there's so much at our fingertips right now.

And even where you can put in knowledge checks to these things where you're conveying information to make sure that students are tracking with what you're saying to make sure they're understanding where you are.

Yes.

Generally we say, you know, don't make your videos more than 10 or maybe 15 minutes. If you're really pushing it. So you're focusing on a specific topic, you're keeping it short and to the point, and then you may move on to another topic in a different video. But.

Even like if you use the shorter videos or even if you go a little bit beyond that and do a 20 or 30 minute video, adding in a knowledge check every so often.

Define every so often. What?

Do you mean by that? You know, let's say if you have a 15 minute video, add in a question every 5 minutes to the video. You can do this with the counter quiz creator. We do have other options like H5P but generally culture quiz creator that that integrates really well.

Yes.

If you want to, you can attach points to it, but this is not something where you provide feedback, so it's just a.

Are you tracking with me? Do you retain this knowledge? Is it implanted in your brain?

I think of this as the. This is when you are lecturing in a face to face and you're at up at the board and you've been maybe talking about a concept or you're writing about a concept.

You're discussing it. Your back is to the students, and then you turn around and you see some blank face. Blank stares.

And you stop.

OK.

I see some confused looks. Or does anyone have questions or what are we? What are we missing here and the students then have the chance to check in?

Right or.

Do we have that feedback? Do we do we get that? What's happening here? You don't have that in the async environment, these kinds of knowledge checks are a way to ensure sometimes a student might think that they understand. And then if you insert that knowledge check, it allows them to make sure wait. No, actually I really don't. I need to need to listen to that again or.

Right. I mean even without a blank stare, it's just good to ask a question and throw some out because it keeps your students engaged.

So that's that's part of it. It's kind of like getting ahead of the confusion, getting ahead of their disinterest.

You're asking them to act, right? Your call. It's an. It's a call to action, but also a little low stakes or no stakes. In that case, question like that.

Yeah.

That can actually help students retain that knowledge longer, not just in the moment, but you know, and maybe even after they've taken your quiz. Maybe after that.

Or after your course.

I agree I don't have a follow up from that. Yeah.

Well, yeah, no, we.

We have.

A whole podcast episode on that, you know.

Yeah. Yeah, we.

Do we do have? It's one of our earliest episodes on micro lectures we have on our tips website.

On low 6:15.

Oh, wow. Successing. Yeah, and micro lectures. So we're really so really what we're saying is this.

Podcast episode is just saying there are alternatives, and then we're also providing in other longer podcast episodes.

Go find those those alternatives. We we go into deeper detail about how you can explore some of those alternatives.

Because again, I'll reiterate, we don't want somebody to finish listening to this and think lecture bad must get rid of. But.

Is it the default? Does it have to be the default in this particular unit or this particular lesson you're teaching?

My mind always takes me weird places so.

I think of this as like I automatically default to.

Pizza Fridays, that is my default for dinner on Friday every Friday, no matter what I'm doing or where I'm at, it's pizza Friday.

And then sometimes I have to stop and go. Why?

At 40 years old, is it still Pizza Friday like?

Why not? Also, yes. But why? Because because you know what? There are better options and choices out there, right? Sometimes now. But quick. Default to pizza Fridays, but.

Like is there? Why am I automatically defaulting to that and so just with everything in my life that I start defaulting to? I have to ask myself why am I doing this and is it really the best option now? Sometimes just like you answered, the answer is yes. Pizza Friday is the best thing ever, but sometimes I can say you know what?

I needed salad with my pizza. I need to make.

It salad and pizza 1st.

Yes, or just understanding that you know, I'm not going to call out any specific pizza chain by name, but default big box pizza pizza chain if that's your default on Pizza Fridays. There's so many other options that that might deliver. Yeah, that might deliver the.

Homemade pizza.

There's gourmet pizza.

The Pizza Friday desire.

Been healthier?

But but in a but in a but.

In a way.

That's that's the idea of like a micro lecture.

You're still conveying the.

In a way that makes sense to you, that allows you to demonstrate your expertise.

But it freshens it up, it makes it actually more pedagogically sound for student learning outcomes to be achieved, and it allows students to engage a degree more.

Benefit in in in a in a way that that puts them one or two degrees closer to to reaching those outcomes. If your goal for Pizza Fridays is to be healthy, you're probably not going to reach that, but if you incorporate a salad or.

If you swap out some ingredients and make it at home, it's probably going to be a little bit healthier. Maybe not always, but.

Maybe sometime, maybe a little healthier than the big bucks, right?

Or at least.

You were adding in a nutritional value, something you're giving your.

Your body some variety there.

So it it really I think.

Me comes back to.

That that woman coat that I that I brought at the beginning, it really just comes down to.

Asking yourself, because maybe maybe the lecture makes perfect sense for what you're needing to convey.

But it's asking yourself the the why what? What is my reason for defaulting or going to this particular delivery method of my content?

And are there other options out there? And so having that systemic measurement of the teaching quality that I'm delivering, that was what Lehman pointed out, like the the.

Reality in higher Ed is there's probably a.

Opportunity out there to incentivize the ongoing improvement of teaching quality and at least evaluation of of teaching quality in the 1st place, not to to root anyone out, not to tear anyone down, but just to enhance and improve upon the people. Have the knowledge base. But just because they have the knowledge base doesn't mean we're conveying it in a way that.

Makes sense, makes sense or delivers it in a way that that benefits.

Student and it should definitely be both. We should. We should incentivize those subject matter experts that.

Faculty and researchers are because they are, and we we need that in the university sphere.

But also students are there to learn from them.

And if.

We could improve that.

Marginally, over time, incrementally over time.

Then we're we're creating better outcomes for the future of that discipline or the future of those students in their fields that they go into beyond it.

Yeah.

Most people who are teaching at the college level that I've met.

They want to do good things for their students.

And so this just takes the opportunity to evaluate what you're doing and say, am I allowing students the opportunity to learn actively and get the most out of their education? It, you know, is there more that I can be doing? I'm doing good.

Can I do better?

Yeah. Am I teaching my students to bloodlet or am I giving them antibiotics?

By Alex.

Am I making their vitamins bioavailable?

Right.

And again in some instances, lecturing might be the the.

The cream of the crop might be the top deliverable outcome.

Sometimes you just need big box pizza.

And sometimes it's going to be a different, more active learning style. It's going to be more project based. It's going to be flipped classroom. It's going to be Jigsaw methodology. It's going to be micro lecturing.

There's just.

So many options out there, we don't need to default to.

1.

In general, yeah.

That that one isn't.

But specifically the passive one, right? Yes. We don't need to default to bloodletting. We need to.

Yeah.

Look at all.

Of our options and know our students, right?

Do and do you think we default so much to the passive one? I mean, it's not to go bad on it because.

When when lecturing?

Is done really well. It's captivating.

Incredibly so. I mean we listen to.

And it and it. Yeah, we listen audiobooks.

Audio books, right?

We listen to Ted talks, we listen to. There are, I mean, that's what and for people of a spiritual persuasion. That's what churches in a lot of ways. It's getting to listen to someone talk for 40 minutes. That's.

So many YouTube videos out there that we just want to.

Podcast right now that's just a couple of people tapping into the ether for for 40 minutes to an hour.

Welcome to our podcast episode where we talked to you for 30 minutes about not talking to other people for 30 minutes.

Right.

Yes.

And that's different and that that to me has always been something.

From from different vantage points of learning.

That.

Yeah. Why? Why do we default to even from from lectures I I love and encourage. When? When instructors bring in guest speakers or bring in guest teachers to come in or or have interviews with experts in their field or industry experts to have that back and forth because the diversity of knowledge and the diversity of of.

Perspectives helps lift up the the overall availability of of learning and ideas for students to interact with.

Well, and that's one of the things I actually love about.

Including videos that are not the instructor in online courses, what do they come from? You know, the Internet realm, or that's another faculty member in your department. I love seeing those in courses because.

Yes.

It's like, hey, here's another expert in the field talking to you about this same thing or giving you a, you know, something else to think about with this topic.

It to me, counterbalances not counteracts but counterbalances that sage on the stage mentality and that it promotes the collaboration of education that education truly is. Education is a collaborative act.

And the more that we as instructors, designers, facilitators of knowledge can demonstrate that and exemplify that.

The more dynamic our students are going to be in their learning and their ability to synthesize information because they see it comes from a a plethora.

Of other minds and other ideas, and not just this one individual who holds all.

The keys and you have to go through that one individual to get the keys to the Kingdom in a sense.

Well.

I think that you hit the nail on the head just now when you said the word collaboration. That's kind of the antidote to sage on the stage it.

The collaboration being the antidote to Sage on the stage in a way that when you were students not only seeing you collaborating, but also were given the opportunity to collaborate themselves, then that's really what takes that to active learning. They're able to move and do and think.

And kind of grasp and grapple with the knowledge and topic themselves to make it their own and fit it into their own.

You know, conceptualization rather than.

Just hear it one way from what you said and try to fit it into a box of memory. You know that's it's very different to live it than it is to hear it.

Yes, that makes me think of I'm going to paraphrase this quote by a man named Doctor Timothy Keller. He was a a theologian and a pastor, but I think his.

Idea here translates well into.

The wider world of learning and education, he says. If you learn or follow only one.

Person you will be a clone.

If you or or in.

A cult.

If you learn from and listen to two people.

You'll be divided.

Or conflicted if you start to listen to three or more voices, you're starting to begin the process of education.

And so that idea of really taking in multiple ideas, multiple collaborative concepts and ideas from more than one perspective.

Allows you to to open up your mind to.

The differences in how people see even the same concept sometimes.

Yeah. So actually that all reminds me of our social learning, but so that recently came out as well where only and I really talked about social learning and you know, making how important it is to kind of build that culture of collaboration.

In your classroom.

Absolutely.

Thanks for joining us today on the Pedagogy toolkit. Be sure to check out the show.

Notes for different.

Details and insights from articles we have referenced throughout this episode and don't forget to subscribe. Thanks.