Need new ways of engaging your digital church community? In this video, we’ll look at how to help people online connect more deeply with others, how to engage teams in ministry, and how to become a community-based church that impacts the local neighborhood.

If you are a mega church or part time clergy and want to empower your lay leaders and lay pastors, then you’ll want to watch this entire video to learn from Hope Church Iowa pastor Mark Brandt who pastors a multisite church and equips and empowers volunteer teams at their church campuses. Mark has been doing digital ministry for 10 years. Learn a new way to help your digital church community connect online and how to support lay leaders in your multisite church today.

Learn more about the Lutheran Church of Hope West Des Moines: https://wdm.lutheranchurchofhope.org/

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Alicia Granholm: Welcome to the Pivot Podcast. This is the podcast where we talk about how the church can faithfully navigate a changing world and think anew about ways lay leaders can expand and enhance ministry. Hello everyone. I'm Alicia Granholm.

Terri Elton: And I'm Terri Elton, and we are excited today to have with us Mark Brandt. Mark is the digital outreach minister. Yes, that is his title, folks. At Lutheran Church of Hope in West Des Moines, Iowa. He served at Hope since June of 1999 when, you know, he was but a baby when he came. No, I'm just kidding. He started at Hope. Yeah, exactly. He started at Hope in student ministry before transitioning to online ministry ten years ago. And in those ten years, he has been experimenting with online ministry in all kinds of ways. He's married and has twins that are 19 and a 14 year old, and in his spare time, he referees basketball and we might even get a story out of him about that today. So welcome, Mark, to the Pivot podcast.

Mark Brandt: Thank you. I'm so glad to be here. It's a pleasure.

Alicia Granholm: Well, we're really excited to have you with us today, Mark. And I'm wondering if, to start, you can share a little bit and tell us more about Hope West Des Moines.

Mark Brandt: Yeah. So we're a church that's, uh, started officially in 1991 as a mission plant of some other churches here in the West Des Moines area. Uh, that first one didn't, go as successfully as they wanted. And so then they approached our now senior pastor, Mike Householder, to come down and do a restart. Uh, so he relocated to the West Des Moines area in 1993, started going door to door, knocking on doors with this little pamphlet he made that's become very famous now. He still has it in his office. And we'll show you if you ask, just telling people about this new church that he's planting in West Des Moines. And, uh, they officially relaunched in 1994. So we're actually turning 30, uh, this year. Um, but, I sort of describe Hope, as you know, and it goes along with Des Moines. We're a small church that happens to have a lot of people, because we really want people to feel connected. I mean, it's, and Des Moines is the same way. It's a very large, small town. And I think that's super important. And as a church, you know, we've got some great core values that we hold up. And one of those that I absolutely loved, and this is why I think I truly ended up at Hope was "lost people matter to God and so they matter to us." And so I came in '99 when the church was starting to really thrive. And came on in student ministry. We had about 80 kids in confirmation at the time, which was pretty good. And a lot of fun to be a part of that and watch that grow over time. Uh, and just to be a part of the growth that Hope has been on since then has been a real, it's an honor. I don't feel like I'm worthy in so many ways to be a part of what God is up to here. But at the same time, I'm so thankful that he called me here at the right time, at the right place. Um, to be a part of it. Yeah. I'm trying to think what else you would need to know about us.

Terri Elton: Well, I think you'll share a little bit more, I think as this story comes out. I have a long history with Hope and a number of the pastors there. So you and I met when I brought a couple people from Luther Seminary down, and we were just learning a little bit about and they started telling us about these local communities that were going on and the work you were doing. So I wonder if you could talk about what was that like? And I think it was pretty experimental in that day. That was for us, I don't know, 2018 or something like that. So tell us about that experiment and what that's been like.

Mark Brandt: Well, in truth, I think we're still experimenting. Quite honestly. I'm seven years into this and I, I feel like I may just start to be figuring this thing out. Um, yeah. It really started because we were broadcasting our service out to the world early on. Even in 2013, 2014, we were some early adopters to streaming technology on live stream.com and some other things that were happening out there. And when I was moving away from student ministry, I was intrigued by folks that were worshiping with us online and where they're worshiping from. And I just didn't want them to be an unnamed IP address. I really wanted to connect them. Once again, lost people matter to God, so they matter to us. So why are these people choosing to worship with us where they're worshiping from? So I wanted to get to know some of these folks. And so, ironically enough, yesterday was Ash Wednesday. It was on an Ash Wednesday, uh, long ago, where we experimented with the first live hosting, where I had our IT department put a webcam up in a little booth we had that overlooked our worship space, and I said, I want to say hi to these people because I want them to connect to us somebody. I feel like that matters. And so they put the webcam up, they turned the switch on and they said, "you're live." And I just started to say, hey, welcome to Hope. We're so glad you're here. We've been praying for you and got a great positive response from the people that were worshiping online. "Oh my goodness, you recognize us. You know that we're here." And so fast forward a bit. There were some folks that are worshiping with us online from around the state of Iowa and in one community, in particular, Forest City. And they had become church nomads. They weren't going anywhere in person for worship. They were just worshiping online. And they asked this crazy, audacious question, what would it look like if we got together to worship? And I didn't have a reason to say no. I mean, that felt really naturally awesome. So, uh, and that was actually where I had first been in ministry in my first few years. So I, uh, remember the YMCA there in town, and I said, hey, what if you try to get that community room and just invited people to join you? And so that is kind of how this all started, without any real grand plan of doing anything more than just giving them permission to be the church. And over the course of the next few months, they grew from this, this little small group. And what I mean by that is like they started with like 20 and they grew to like 40 pretty quickly of people that were looking for a place to connect. And they just they asked, what do we call ourselves? And that really then began the process of identifying what this ministry was. And I looked around the country and there were churches that were starting to do things like this that they called microsites. And I just didn't like the name micro. It just felt small and limiting. So in prayer, I just kind of thought, what if we call them local sites because it's local to you? And so that's the name that we chose for what we do. And they're just basically they're small communities of volunteer led, uh, folks who gather for worship anywhere from ten to as many as 100. And we don't put a number restrictor on it because we want this to really feel organic. We want them to feel like they can just come and be a part of the church. And it's all digital. So it's 100%, um, online. Occasionally one of them might do a special music, or they might have, like, their kids come up and read the scripture, uh, as part of a live element. But for the most part, they're 100%, uh, digital in their expression. And it's beautiful.

Terri Elton: So one of the things that's curious to me about this, and you and I've had a little bit of conversation over the years, is that the streaming of worship becomes the center that unites these local sites.

Mark Brandt: Yep.

Terri Elton: However. You then say that's not church, alone.

Mark Brandt: Mhm.

Terri Elton: We need to come around that worship. And so the lay leaders are equipped to do other things. Talk about what you see their role to be. And then how do you equip them to live into that role?

Mark Brandt: So I really expect our local sites to be missional in their approach to their communities. So one of the I wouldn't say it's an expectation, but I would say it's very strongly encouraged: find ways you can better the community around you. And so each site has a unique, way that they do that within their communities. So Forest City, for example, which I just talked about, they partnered with the YMCA to do some food feeds for the YMCA, basketball and like football programs that help families that are on the go and can't really do healthy meals. They'll provide a healthy meal for the kids that are grab and go, and it's just a way to give back to the community. And I feel like that's pretty important. I mean, if if you're going to be, a community based church, you have to understand your community and find the ways that you can meet the needs of that community. So that's, one of the ways in each site is encouraged to find what is their fit within their community. So, for example, the Newton site, we have, works with the Salvation Army quite a bit over there to do some things that are unique to their city. Iowa City has been making pillow cases for the cancer, the children's cancer wing over there at the hospital. They were doing such a good job. The hospital said, please take a break. We have enough. But that's always a good problem to have when you're doing your job well enough that they asked you to kind of put a halt on it, but I think it's pretty important, Terri, that they, that they find a way to serve, to activate their faith. I think that's the biggest thing. Otherwise we're just consumers of things and we don't. I mean, that might be where your faith journey begins is in, you know, listening and and taking something in. But I think a natural byproduct of healthy church is going out, going out beyond the walls. And the fact that they don't have walls to begin with really helps that.

Terri Elton: Well and that echoes your values of hope, right? So yeah, they're a local site, but they're still embodying the values of the larger, right?

Mark Brandt: Yes, I think so.

Terri Elton: What do you what do you do about pastoral care kind of things and forming faith kind of things?

Mark Brandt: So that was one, if I had to be honest, you I feel like some of this we are retrofitting as we go, like learning as we so early on in the life of this ministry, when those things would come up, the best thing that I could say to them was, I can't drop everything and come up and be present for this. So it was equipping those leaders to be the hands and feet of Jesus, to show up in the hospital rooms and actually be present with the people that are suffering. Really equipping them to do the work that was often reserved for professionals. And I think that was not by design, but by a real divine accident that they live 2.5 hours from me. So I couldn't show up. Now, in cases where there's real acute situations that come up, I'm a phone call away or a drive away if I have to, I will drop everything and be present for whatever comes up. But I'm I'm the pastoral connection to Hope for each of our sites. And then I try and equip our core leaders at each site to do the things that don't need somebody to immediately show up, or if there is an immediate need, they show up first and are present until somebody else can be present. But the other really cool thing that we've tried to do in this ministry as well, is partner with other pastors at other churches in the towns where they live, and forge a relationship with them that, if something comes up, they would show up. So I've been in contact with the chaplain at the University of Iowa Hospitals, for example. And, you know, when we have a patient there and one of us can't get there right away, the chaplain will show up for us up in north central Iowa. I have a pastor up there that will do some visits if we need to. If something comes up. And I think that's those are pretty important relationships too.

Alicia Granholm: Mark, I'm really curious if you can share a little bit more about how you identify and recruit lay leaders. I think this is one of those areas where a lot of pastors and church leaders are just, you know, just kind of scratch their head sometimes because they, they don't really know where to start with actually, like, finding people and inviting them and like what a recruitment process and equipping process might even look like.

Mark Brandt: That's a great question. So we. First of all, when we look at sight ministry and I, and I'm thinking, hey, what would we do next? This only happens because people reach out to us. So I have maps on my wall because it helps me keep track of where things are going on. But we've never looked at a map and said, let's go there. We wait for a volunteer to reach out to us who's been a part of our Hope and Hope online community to say, "hey, what would it look like if?" And that's kind of the first question, that bold question they ask. But we don't just automatically go, yes, because we want to do some discernment with them and figure out what's their story? Why did they reach out to us? How did they connect to Hope? Um, I'm sure as many of you will attest to that are listening right now. You've had some volunteers that have stepped in before and have wanted to help, and they just weren't in a great place to be able to do so. So you have to discern with them. Is this the right season in their life to lead? So it starts with that first question. Hey, what would it look like if Hope came to this area? And then we work with, uh, the local area pastors or the synod to discern, is this even something we should consider? You know, kind of based on the church history in the area and things like that. I also want to surround them with others so we don't launch with just one person. We want to have that person form a team, and we encourage them to find others who are in the area, that might be also church nomads that are looking for a new space of worship. And then once that team, if I should say not "once," but "if that team forms, then we begin a process of learning what a local site is. How do we do worship on a weekly basis? What does it look like to be, uh, welcoming and inviting to all that would come in and just really talk about the ins and outs of that service component, because that's truly our our front door that people will come into. Um, but it all has to center around that team. And we want to do our best to have a healthy team in place. And that usually takes between 6 and 8 months to kind of get that team really formed. So if somebody comes in and they want to launch the next day, this is not the ministry for them. Can they do watch parties? Absolutely. But to truly do this well, we want to walk through a season with them to make sure this is the right thing. And I've actually said, we've discerned "no" as often as we've discerned "yes." Because I feel like there's seasons where we shouldn't do something also. And what I mean by that, and maybe this would be an encouragement to all of you, is that, uh, we don't want to launch or form any ministry venture, whether it's an usher team or a greeter team or a communion team around people that are disgruntled because of something that has happened. Disgruntled leaders make disgruntled followers. We want to form this around people that are that are and "healthy" is probably the wrong word to say too, because none of us are truly 100% where we want to be at all, but we want to be to form teams around people that are excited to grow, that have a capacity to lead and are doing that from a healthy place spiritually.

Terri Elton: All right. So I'm going to ask a more personal question. I'm guessing this isn't the model that you were formed and shaped in, right? Sites are supposed to be led by clergy with an MDiv or whatever, right?

Mark Brandt: No.

Terri Elton: For those for listeners out there, Hope in West Des Moines is an ELCA congregation, of which I'm an ELCA pastor. And we have thought about a lot of these things differently. Right? So I want to ask, um. I love the experimenting. I love that you've kind of learned as you've gone and retrofitting. I actually think that's helpful for us. But I want to wonder, what has this shift been like for you internally to really lead differently, like when you just can't show up at the hospital and you've got to rely on other people, right? That's a that's a different thing for you as a ministry leader. So what's that shift been like for you?

Mark Brandt: Uh, gosh, I would love to say it was seamless. Like, we figured this out right away. No. I think doing church as a team, the concept Wayne Cordero wrote a book that was actually that title. That was important early on in Hope's days, Pastor Mike had us all read that book because he said, there's no way that we can do this thing that we're doing here at Hope without forming teams, because the last thing we want are people watching others do ministry. We want to equip people to be ministers themselves, you know, to be those folks that are actually stepping into hospital visits. I can't tell you how many times, and unfortunately, we haven't been able to bring it back fully yet. But we had a hospital visitor team that was made up all of lay folks, and there'd be times when I would go on a hospital visit and they'd say, oh, Scott's already been here. We're good. It's like, okay, glad to hear you're doing well. I'll be praying for you. Um, it's just that's the beauty of doing ministry as a team. And I feel like if you're coming out of that, you know, parish priest model where you're called to do everything, that's going to burn you out in a hurry if you don't start to form teams. And most of the time it's because of, I think, unfair expectations. People feel like because a pastor walks in the room, there's something it's a bigger deal than if Jeff, you know, from my small group, walks in the room. T hat couldn't be further from the truth. I mean, are those of us that are called to ministry, are we called to be in those spaces? 100%. But at the end of the day, others are called to that as well. It's not an exclusive call to be able to care for somebody or to be able to lift somebody up in prayer. We want to equip people to do that, and the more you can do so, I feel like the more it frees you up to be the church to do the mission that you've you're called to do. I love the fact that none of our volunteers in these local sites have to worry about preaching or teaching. All they have to worry about is when the door opens and somebody walks in saying that phrase to them, "we're glad you're here." We've been praying for you. That's a huge, I think, a burden and a lift off of them to really only be focused on developing an authentic community that is seeking Christ.

Alicia Granholm: I love that, Mark. Um, and I don't think anyone will be surprised that, you know, it wasn't easy right out of the gate. A nd I can imagine there's been, just continual discernment about what it looks like as you really live into just that experiment of change in and of itself.

Mark Brandt: Yeah. You know. The sad reality that we're living into right now is that there are people who are. There are tons of people are still looking for church. They're still looking for a place to connect. And in some of our rural areas of Iowa, there just really aren't. I mean, our healthy churches, unfortunately, are dying. And so we're trying to step into that gap, not to take the place of, but to provide an alternative possibility for people to continue to be church. Because just because the building might go away doesn't mean there aren't people that are seeking after God. And if we can find a way to help them continue to do so. That's where I think digital ministry really can be an enhancement rather than a detraction. You know, where we've found that we can reach further than we ever could before, because now to be church together in a smaller community where a church might not exist requires a screen, a projector and an internet connection. Now you can get online. You can be church. Is it perfect? No, I mean, it's you know, it's one thing to be showing up here in our space on a Sunday morning. It's another thing to be showing up in, uh, Panora, Iowa, which is one where one of our sites is that meets in the basement of a restaurant that isn't even open anymore. And yet and then the screen pops on and they're worshiping together, though. Otherwise they would drive 55 minutes into either Waukee or West Des Moines to join us in person. It's so nice to drive five minutes from home and be church.

Terri Elton: And I think we underestimate what you just said in our imagination about being church in this time. I think we often go to the default and the all the, all the "Oh, I wish we could," right? I wish we could have a stained glass building, you know, windows in our building and an organ and stuff. Rather than saying, what if we could have a sustainable model of an authentic community that cares about each other? It's going to be in each other's lives in a place that currently just it doesn't have one, right, and could. And it's so sustainable in the sense that it's it's affordable. Yeah. Right. It also, we interviewed a bishop talking about this in the ELCA and his his words were my, my call is a bishop is that people in my synod would have access to word and sacrament ministry.

Mark Brandt: Mhm.

Terri Elton: Like that's an access that's. And then part of their thing has been lay leaders as well equipping them in various ways where pastors are accompanying them and mentoring them. You're having a similar challenge with a different approach that is getting at the same end result, right? You're equipping laypeople to walk with people while the clergy of the church continue to do their call. Right? And it's just trying to expand that imagination.

Mark Brandt: Well, and the best part is I think the principles are very transferable. So this is not exclusive to Hope. We're just one of many churches that are trying this. But I feel like I mean, I'll just be right now, the capacity is almost a point where, to take on more means I have to let go of something else. So to say that the that I would be happy if other churches started to do this is an understatement. A nd it's really not that you even have to do it the same way Hope does. It's just being present in a space where maybe there wasn't something before. I mean, I imagine I mean, we're still kind of shifting out of this, this point parish model that we have where people have to run from this building to that building to that building. Imagine, if you will, you know, a part of Iowa or a part of Nebraska or a part of Kansas where you can have a hub where that main pastor might reside. But now they're broadcasting to these three other or four other country churches on a regular basis. And rather than having to be present at each weekend, they can start in one place. And maybe that rotates between different buildings, but there's a great potential to magnify or maximize our, our potential through broadcast that frankly, just, you know, driving from place to place can't accomplish. So what Hope is doing is not exclusively Hope. It really is, I think a great vision to what ministry I think could look like and look like in the future, where we actually become smaller, we find ways to unleash these small communities rather than expect them to drive to us, equip them to be the church. And it can be small groups, 10 to 12. This is so easy to do in somebody's living room. That's where it can start.

Alicia Granholm: Yeah. No, I just love that accessibility piece. Mark, I'm curious what maybe your biggest challenge in equipping lay leaders is within this model.

Mark Brandt: That they have full time jobs. You know, I think, that their capacity is limited in the fact that many of them are professionals in other areas of life. So that really limits the scope of what we were able to do before. However, where we're trying to combat that is providing more digital resources for people so that our lay leaders don't have to form small groups. They can equip small group leaders with curriculum we have available here in digital resource format to do small group where they are. So these these leaders aren't having to coordinate these five small group leaders. Now they're just saying, hey, reach out to Eric Payton, who's our small groups coordinator. Figure out which curriculum is going to work best for your group, and then continue that relationship with him. So it's, the challenge is that they just don't have the capacity to do as much as somebody who is maybe professionally called to ministry. But the beauty of that, though, is to, they approach ministry from a different mindset. You know, this is a blessing to be church together in a very radical way.

Terri Elton: I love that. I kind of think it's biblical too, Mark. I'm just going to go with that. Right? Kind of that tent maker, right?

Mark Brandt: Yeah.

Terri Elton: Kind of view of ministry. So I have a question. If you had a word of encouragement, let's say the spirit is nudging somebody to go in this direction. What would your word of encouragement be for our listeners today?

Mark Brandt: Don't be afraid. I heard that said a lot in scripture, too. Don't be afraid. You don't have to have it all figured out. Here's the, the best part about it is there are a lot of folks out there that do what this is. You're not you don't have to reinvent the wheel to make this happen, so reach out to us. I still have a small group of guys and gals that do this ministry around the country that we compare notes once in a while to figure out what's working there versus what's working here. And so don't be afraid to step out of your comfort zone a bit and try something. Also, don't give up when you get pushback. Because there are folks that are still so, narrowly focused on brick and mortar models and ministry, which isn't bad. I'm not saying that the brick and mortar ministry is bad. By all means, I want people in person. Any person that does online ministry that that wants to keep everybody online, run away from those folks. Everybody that does online ministry, that's that's really, I think, authentically, doing it well is moving people from online to an offline experience. Now, that offline experience might be a small group, it might be a local site which is still worshiping online, but they're together. That's the main piece. Um, don't be afraid when you get pushback from folks that say, this isn't how we have always done things. You know, if you're going to try and reimagine the way that you're doing ministry in your in your small communities, you have to push past that discomfort to the place where you can grow. And that took us a while to really, I think, get to a place where we felt more comfortable with this model. We didn't we didn't speak their name out loud for the longest time because we weren't sure if it was okay. You know, what we were doing? We weren't sure if we were being good neighbors within, this model of ministry. We just, we wanted people to feel, like we could equip them to do this, while at the same time supporting them as much as we can. But also there's, you know, there is pushback when people say, well, do you have a building? No , we don't. Do you have a pastor? Well, kind of, but they're 2.5 hours away. You know, there's all these different hurdles. People are like, well, what does that mean? So for folks that come in or looking for, you know, that old, that was terrible to say old, the brick and mortar model of ministry. We're not going to be a great fit for them. But if you're willing to try something different. It's crazy rewarding.

Alicia Granholm: Well, Mark, thank you so much for joining us today. It's really been great having you on our pivot podcast. And to be able to hear some stories from Hope and ways in which you are experimenting and continuing to experiment and discern what it looks like to be church today in the 21st century.

Mark Brandt: Thank you very much, I appreciate it.

Alicia Granholm: Yeah, absolutely.

Terri Elton: And, Mark, I just want to say, keep it up. I, we need pioneers that are leaning into a future that we haven't yet imagined. And I know that, you know Iowa and you don't know Southern California or wherever, right. There are other people that are called to to do those things. But I think as you experiment in your context and share those learnings, we all learn. And God's church is, as some might say, much fuller, right? There's a whole lot more people.

Mark Brandt: And I would love nothing more than to help somebody who's thinking about this, if they are curious about ways that they can do this in their context, I would be thrilled to sit down with them. I actually just did that with a gentleman from Tennessee last week, and he's super excited to now try and experiment with some of the things that we're doing in his context. So if there's anybody out there that's curious about, you know, trying digital ministry in a new way. Phone call away. Love to chat.

Terri Elton: That's great. We'll put in the show notes a link to Hope. So you can go look at their website and check out some of that stuff and and learn about how to get in contact with Mark. I want to say thank you to our pivot podcast listeners for joining us for another episode. We hope that these times that we're talking with these church leaders out there are giving you the kind of encouragement and inspiration you need to navigate this changing world that we live in. I'm Terri Elton with Alicia Granholm, and we're signing off for another episode of The Pivot podcast. See you next week.

Faith+Lead: The Pivot podcast is a production of Luther Seminary's Faith lead. Faith lead is an ecosystem of theological resources and training designed to equip Christian disciples and leaders to follow God into a faithful future. Learn more at Faith lead.org.