Nick Wightman is a psychotherapist, father, artist, martial artist and sports fan working in private practice in Oakland, CA. He works with adults and couples as well as running men's groups that focus on communication, confidence, intimacy, life purpose, career, parenting, money, sex, and the idea that true strength comes from vulnerability. He specializes in AEDP, a change-based therapy model that creates transformational emotional experiences using the therapist-client relationship as the primary vehicle for change.

Nick, Michelle and Cinthia talk about what the world looks like from the man's perspective. This is a great episode for the single ladies and the ladies wondering about what is in guy's heads to listen to.

To learn more about Nick, visit http://www.nickwightmantherapy.com/

To learn more about Michelle, visit www.michellewalters.net

To learn more about Cinthia, visit www.cinthiavarkevisser.com

Cinthia Varkevisser 0:00

Hi, we're Cynthia Varkevisser And Michelle Walters, co hosts of mind power needs mystic.

Michelle Walters 0:07

Our weekly show is here to expand your mind to what's possible to

Cinthia Varkevisser 0:12

uplift your spirits, to move forward with confidence and joy,

Michelle Walters 0:17

and to create a space for your collaboration with the invisible. Welcome to mind power needs mystic,

Cinthia Varkevisser 0:28

hey, hey party people. Michelle and I are with one of my favorite favorite people in the whole wide world. He is my martial arts buddy, Nick Whiteman. Today we're talking with him about men's issues, and not just about men's issues in general. But how are men responding to having like this great uprising of women? And, and also just what is their mindset, because, you know, a lot of us want to hang out and maybe make soulmates out of them. So we're gonna get some insight. I adore him. He's a an MFT, and also runs many men's groups, which makes him perfect for this conversation. So thank you. Thank you. Thank you, Nick, for coming on.

Nick Whiteman 1:23

So good to be with you guys. Thank you.

Cinthia Varkevisser 1:26

Yeah. Oh, I forgot to tell you that. I swear here. So if you end up swearing, there is no bleeping there's don't have to worry about expletives.

Nick Whiteman 1:35

I actually just heard your intro to your podcast. And I love it. And I was just gonna say the F F bomb dropping vertigo that way you say on there? Yeah, I was hoping we could get at least a couple of those.

Cinthia Varkevisser 1:48

It tends, it tends to happen can't help? Well, listen, we have a lot of our friends, are these amazing women, super strong, make great money are driven, ambitious, they know a lot. And they have a really hard time really understanding men and why they just can't seem to. Like catch a mate. And I'm not saying that you're here to be a matchmaker. But with these type of women who are looking for, you know, these kinds of mates that are even stronger than them, or I'm wondering if the if your clients are onto this, and it have some challenges? And you know, just something around there just get a little bit of a male perspective.

Nick Whiteman 2:46

Yeah, verum. Actually, I have a lot of men who I'm working with, who are also struggling to find a partner, and wondering what is it that makes it so hard? And one of the questions I like to go over with people is one way to approach it is to have your list, you know, I want a partner who has these top 10 things, and it's sort of like their stats list, you know, make this much money, you know, whatever has these interests, is six feet tall, like all these can be more superficial things. And I'm not saying those aren't important. But what I find is a deeper question is how do you want to feel in your next relationship? Do you want to feel respected? Do you want to feel prioritize? Do you want a companion who's gonna be there? You're on someone who's exciting. And it, that question tends to turn up some different answers or, you know, open some different avenues to explore. Because sometimes what we think we want isn't what we need, you know, and a lot of people go about dating, holding this blueprint or this model, and just kind of holding it up around everyone they're chatting with on their dating apps or whatever, and saying, Yeah, this person doesn't fit next. And what's happening is they might be passing up on someone really great for them. And you don't always know until you're making a connection and seeing is there chemistry here? You know, maybe it's not the person who's a 10 out of 10 attractiveness. But that could be your life partner, a person could be perfect. Right. So yeah, opening opening their minds about what you're really looking for, you know, is it the statute or is it how you want to feel

Michelle Walters 4:36

that it's so nice to meet you, Nick, as somebody who has done or tried a few times the online dating thing? It is of, shall we say sometimes it's very efficient and effective. I've met a wonderful partner that way. And sometimes it's not so much, but I've never you know, prior to the existence of online dating, like before it exists Did you met people? Usually because you had something in common with them. You had a friend in common, you worked at the same place, you were going to the same school. Like there was some sort of energetic connection between people. And now I think I read recently, it's like 30% of people meet their partners online tutor, pig percent, I mean, the one out of three, that's a lot. But it's a very different way of looking at, at choices and options. And I've got to imagine that from it's pretty horrible looking at it from the Women's point of view, I think it might be even worse looking at it from the man's point of view.

Nick Whiteman 5:44

Yeah, yeah, it's, it's a hard thing, you know, I've had more than once where I have one client, and obviously, as a therapist, I'm bound by confidentiality, so I can't share one client stuff with another, but I'll be talking to one person. And I'll just say in a in a hetero, situation where the guy is looking for a partner, and struggling with connecting with someone online. And you know, we talk about this, then I have a female client. And over time, I'm sitting here thinking, God, I wish I could just put these two people together, you know, like, they're both struggling, they both have this sense of when is this gonna happen for me? Is there anyone out there? And in the darkest moments of it, am I even lovable are my desirable. And that's where, you know, we can go when it's not working out. So I do think there are some things unique to men around dating. I also think there's a lot of it that's kind of universal. We're all looking for, for someone and having a lot of the same challenges.

Cinthia Varkevisser 6:52

I am wondering, for women, at least a lot of the clients that that I have, when they they always use the word soulmate, and then I do an eye roll. I'm like, Oh, my God, I'm not knocking the whole soulmate thing. But But I think what happens is when you're looking for a soulmate you forget to look at all the little things instead of going, Oh, it's an energetic connection, right? Because there's so much vulnerability that needs to happen in order to make that connection, to find out who that person is, right? And so puts. So, a lot of women, they, they stress out, because it's you know, we're in that Beyonce, you know, I bought this, I made this, I earned this, about, you know, making sure that men aren't broke asses, right? That's the thing that my friends always say, is he a broke ass, if he's broke, and he's gotta be out the door. And I'm like, shit, you guys, I was a broke ass. Right? So, so we're at that place? Is that one of the anxieties that that comes up when it comes to dating and, you know, as a gender, as you know, is it gender specific?

Nick Whiteman 8:05

Yeah. I, you know, I don't know if this answers it exactly. But a lot of guys who I talked to, over the years, feel like they've been the nice guy who's empathetic, who's emotionally intelligent, who, you know, shows up and has, inevitably, like, some female friends who they're attracted to, or meet somebody who they would love to date. And they don't register on that person. Radar, as you know, like someone they want to be with. So there's this feeling among a lot of guys have. I'm either the friendzone you know, nice guy, feeling bass guy, or I would have to be sort of the superficial asshole guy who kind of doesn't really care, but who's, you know, that that's a luring to some women, you know, that kind of removed person, and it feels like a crappy choice, like, these are the only two people I can be. So some of the work is what is that door number three, where you get to have all of those qualities. And maybe this gets into some of the, you know, masculine feminine qualities, which has nothing to do with men and women, you know, gender wise, we all have all of those things in us. But is there a way that you can have both? Both people can have both, so it's not so polarized like that. In other words, it's like, there's this sort of a joke that comes up where like, some people say, I want a sensitive partner who pays attention to me. When that person actually finds that partner, all of a sudden, they're bored as hell, and it's really flat. You know, and like they thought that they wanted and they get it and they're like, Ah, this isn't really I'm not enjoying this. There's there's a lot of attachment, stuff that comes along with this picture. To

Well, here's another thing, I have a question about love languages. Because a lot of the clients that I have, they're like, Well, I'm this kind of person. And so this is what I'm looking for. First, does that come up in any of the conversations with your male clients? And what's your response? Because, you know, a lot of people, they they start going into, into, like certain personality traits or archetypes. I'm not against that. However, I believe that we're all. So we have so many dimensions to us, that we're cutting ourselves short. So yeah. Does that happen?

Yeah, that it does come up a lot, I actually find that pretty helpful for love languages to understand some relationship dynamics, especially when it comes to, like, what are the unmet needs, people are having, because those are usually the things that drive conflict or getting stuck in an unhelpful cycle. There's the surface thing that people focus on, like the laundry, or the chores or the money. But often there's something deeper, that's not being met. And, you know, usually drawn to a partner who does not have the same love language as you. So it's really common for those signals to miss each other. And I'll tell you, Nick, there is sort of a stereotype that guys are a little bit checked out a little less in touch with themselves, but maybe it's the bubble of the Bay Area that we live in, there are a lot of men who are really in touch with this part of themselves, and will bring up those kinds of topics. You know, I'm, I'm a Physical Touch person, or I'm a, you know, whatever. Meaningful X and my partner is, uh, you know, words of affirmation have helped me, you know, with this gap. I don't know how to give what they're asking for. So it does come up. Yeah, I found that one helpful.

Oh, my God, Dee is gift She's damn expensive. She's trinkets?

Right, right.

Here's a bottle cap, I thought of you. Oh, you the past?

Yeah, there is another part of that, that I think might be helpful to acknowledge, which is, Are people already in relationships. One thing I hear all the time, and this comes up in some of the men's groups, too, is that a lot of guys really want to feel acknowledged and appreciated for the things that they do, you know, just the everyday thing. And a lot of times, you know, their partner might feel like, well, why should I, you know, appreciate you doing like, what we're all supposed to do, what's the big deal about that, but there is this need, I think, for some men to feel acknowledged and appreciated. And there's something really affirming about that. And that can come through words of affirmation. And when they feel more of that they're actually more likely to give what their partner is wanting, you know, sort of like, you give me what I'm needing, then I'm in a state to give you what you're needing. And I've seen that in a lot of couples sessions, where the guy is saying, I just feel underappreciated, and you know, the partner saying, well, you're just, you know, why should I celebrate you for doing these things? And in some moments, my response was like, I totally get that I understand your feeling about that. And if this is a need your partner's having, is there some way you could think about bridging that gap? Because I'll tell you, if you give him more of what he needs, he's going to be more available to you. And so it's a, you know, a positive cycle instead of a negative one that you're starting.

Right? I have to say, I don't know about women, because women kind of feel like I'm generalizing all the time. But women like to share, right? They connect a lot of women connect that way at least that's, that's our groups, I think, Michelle, right. The thing that I find really interesting is that when men go to therapy, or they have therapy, somewhere in their in their life, I think about one person that we have in common, I'll just say his name, Ethan, because he grew up in therapy is that they have this great vocabulary. And you don't have to have huge words, but it's that he gives himself permission to say the things that he has to say in order to have these great conversations. Are you finding that that men are starting to understand that, you know, thing, I'm not saying they need to, but there's a greater conversation to be had. There's a There's a lead into this. So just in case you're wondering,

yeah, I think a lot of guys struggle with communicating basic needs and wants. And I also feel like it's not their fault. And a lot of ways, there's a big, toxic masculinity piece. In this, there's also, you know, we're all wired from our early family experiences, and a lot of people didn't grow up in an environment where it was encouraged to, you know, express yourself or say how you really feel. So if you think of a lifetime of holding all that stuff, then all of a sudden, you're with somebody who wants you to show up and do all that, you know, it's kind of like, need to learn another language. But the good news is, it's totally possible to do that. And a lot of people are doing that in therapy every day, building that vocabulary, when some of that process is having to go through some of those deeper fears of what might happen if I do express myself in this way. Because there's a vulnerability in doing that. And, you know, especially in our culture, that's one of the biggest things that a lot of guys work really hard to avoid is being vulnerable with someone else. So in my work, I really work with that piece of communication and getting in touch with that part of themselves that they may have been cut off from, for all these reasons. And, you know, it's like, let's get to know that part. Let's make friends with that part. Let's understand all the, you know, I call them protector parts that get in the way of these more kind of raw parts of us that just want to come out and be felt or expressed. That is a lot of the therapy work with men that I do. That kind of stuff.

That's great, very helpful observation, Nick. So I want to remind our listeners at this point that they are listening to mind power beats mystic with me, Michelle Walters, and my podcast pal city of Varkevisser. We are here today at talking to Nick Whiteman, about men's issues and what's going on in that vein of things. And I had a question, I know you've been in this line of work for like 15 or something years, I'm wondering kind of what some of your observations are about how men's issues have changed over time? What what things you might have been seeing men struggle with 10 plus years ago? And what men are struggling with? In 2023?

Yeah, yeah, a couple of things come to mind. One is that I hear from almost every guy I work with who I'd say 30 or older ish, is this hunger for male friendship. And this time of life where, you know, when you're younger, you're in high school, or college, everyone sort of there and you don't have to make so much of an effort to have a friend group or maintain that. But, you know, as people grow up and start doing their own thing, having families having relationships, a lot of those friendships, you know, evolve or kind of die out sometimes. So, I really have come across that, I call it a deep hunger for connecting with other men in a meaningful way. And that there's a lot of isolation guys feel, even if they have a happy career, happy, you know, relationship or family life. It's just a piece that nothing else can meet. And I think, you know, we're hardwired to connect with each other, we're social beings. And when we don't have enough of that, we feel it somewhere. So when guys show up to a men's group, for example, regardless of what gets talked about, just that act of being in a room of other guys who are there for the same reason, is so healing for people. It's kind of amazing to just watch it sometimes. So that's one piece that comes to mind. Another is, you know, I think following the me to movement and some of the other social things in the last years in our culture, I have seen more of an awareness of the privilege that a lot of men have that they weren't really conscious of before. And more of a concern about, you know, things like consent, but also, you know, I would say some fear around. I don't want to do something that's gonna get me canceled, you know, until like, being very careful out there in the world, even on social media. It's feeling like everything is recorded. I don't want to write or say something that could be used against me That's the part that comes up to.

That's so sad because everyone deserves to be celebrated. You know, and it's sad for me to think that there's that looking over your shoulder type of thing, even though, you know, we all have, you know, people have had it for decades, depending on their, their background, right? Race specifically is what I was thinking of. What about, you know, we talked about this, or I asked this question before we got on the podcast, is it feels like there's more anxiety in our culture. And it seems to be more prevalent with men, and I'm not sure if that's true or not, it just appears that way. And I was wondering, what is what is your what's your experience? With? With that? Am I Am I off base? Or?

Well, then, can I ask you where? How do you see that showing up? Do you see it in your, your practices working with people? Or do you notice,

it's actually in regular conversation, as well as in my practice, and what I find is that a lot of men are anxious about not making enough money for their partner in order to be a good provider, or not being able to contribute to family when they have these ambitions. I find it very interesting, because, you know, women talk about it in a different way. But it feels so much more different when it comes from a man's point of view, because of the, you know, of the conception that, you know, not that men have to be the breadwinner, but there is something to it. So things like that.

Yeah. Yeah, I, I really like to think of anxiety, as we call it, an inhibitory emotion. So it is a feeling it's like an experience we have. But a lot of times, it's something that we're feeling, because we're actually not able to feel something underneath the anxiety. And that's really the core emotion. And there's a cycle that is just, you know, built into our brains and our systems to avoid things that are uncomfortable. So, you know, what happens is, we might get close to feeling something that's just a core feeling, you know, there's the short list of categories. And something about it feels like it's going to be too much. So then we jump up into this, anxiety, guilt and shame place. And so it's, it feels real, but it's actually it's kind of like a distraction from the real thing. The solution to anxiety, which feels like did, you know, to get stuck there is to then have some sort of defense, which is like the, you know, the water that puts out the fire, right. And we all do this all the time. And it's not all bad, but it's like, you know, procrastination, like, I want to try something new. But as soon as I get close to the first day of this new class, or really sitting down to make my website, I start to feel like, what if I, what if I'm, you know, a fool? Or what if I fail at this, then I start to get anxious. And then I just say, well just do it tomorrow, you know, or maybe I don't maybe I don't really want this as much as I thought I did. So some of the work that I do with people is to go backwards to say, what is the defense? What's the thing I'm doing to avoid feeling? And if that takes me to anxiety, how can you manage that anxiety, and then eventually get to what's underneath it. And what you're saying is so spot on. For a lot of guys, it comes down to a fear of failure, right? It's not the only thing, but it's, I just see it so often, there's deep fear of failure or letting your partner down letting others down. And it's, there's so much pressure around that that, you know, can cause a lot of problems for people.

Right. Right. Thanks for Thanks for explaining it, and you pretty much peg me when it came to the website thing. Michelle can tell you about that? Yeah, it looks like crap. Mine looks like crap. Michelle's looks great. Um, okay, so this is something that I've been wanting to talk about, but I forgot that I wanted to talk about and I know, a lot of my clients, female clients, and when they talk about their relationships, and these are long term relationships, they're, you know, they're definitely in their 40s or beyond, and it has to do a sense. Um, so here are the things that I that I hear. He doesn't know what I Aren't he? Just isn't that great? I'm bored. I, you know, and I and I say, you know, you have a responsibility, it's your body. So there's a, there's a, there's a conversation that needs to be had. And you can be made playfully in made. You know, as long as you as long as there's no accusations, there's just a conversation. Right? And that there can be a lot of fun there. But it's, you know, it, do you have any? Because you know, people don't? I don't say they don't always listen to me, because of course they do. But do you have any other suggestions to women who have those complaints? And you know how to have these conversations, because they also tend to be the same person that says that there's never a right time, or they don't know how to approach. So when that comes up. Do you have any tips for for our our people out there who have that challenge?

Yeah. It's amazing how that topic is something that most couples don't talk about, at least not explicitly. Even people who've been together for a long time. It's hard to talk about sex. Sometimes. I think a lot of therapists, especially couples, therapists help to facilitate that, where it's like, okay, this is a little awkward, but let's just get some basic things on the table. What turns you on? What turns you off? How do you really feel about your sex life now? Like, are you satisfied? What's missing for you? I think about, there's this thing called the happy partners project. And you can order this deck of cards. And it's really great. It has like five categories of prompts that you can talk about with your partner. One of those categories is intimacy. And there's some questions on there that are, you know, a little bit deeper, like, what do I do that turns you on with a fantasy that you have? I think sometimes couples need a little nudge to just push through that awkwardness and say, This is what, what I really want. I think another part is, what happens in the bedroom. You know, Esther Perel talks about is often the result of other things happening in the relationship. So, you know, it's hard to, to look at the sex part, separate from everything else, there may be some other needs that aren't being met. So we can tend to this part. Sometimes the physical intimacy unfolds from there. But yeah, this is a tough one.

But in order, oh, sorry, go ahead.

No, no, go ahead.

I was just going to say, a lot of a lot of people usually say I don't really know how to approach the subject, I love going to a therapist, because then you know that there's, when you walk in, you both know that you're going to have conversations that are going to be awkward, but for those who aren't having this converse, you know, this conversation with a therapist, do you have any suggestions besides the cards, which, you know, I love? I love that, because it leaves it to chance. Right, which you're talking about? So, but do you have any other tips? Like, when to approach the subject? Or how or, you know,

anything with that? Yeah. I'm always a fan of like a weekly check in, you know, and call it the State of the Union, where you just touch base. It doesn't have to be long, you know, but what's working well? How am I doing what's working well, and what needs attention. And sometimes having that already built in time to talk about stuff makes it so one person doesn't just have to fill up with anxiety or, or you know, discomfort, and then it all kind of comes out, that can lead to fighting, those can be good moments to talk about it. You know, I think there's a piece, I guess, if I'm speaking from the guy's point of view, if that's helpful, what I hear from a lot of men is this feeling of, if I'm to forward or to, you know, I don't know, like really go for it. I'm going to become the aggressive, like, the aggressor, the perpetrator of something that's bad. And so, you know, I should sort of hold back. So I think there are some men with sex, we're actually not fully embodied. They're not even they're not in their bodies. And when you are, that's part of the connection on the pleasure. So I think again, that comes from some discussion being really excited. As a, but there's also the idea that each person is in charge of their own pleasure. If you have people who are really concerned with pleasing the other person, sometimes you're actually coming out of your own self, to make sure the other person is enjoying it. And you're leaving yourself out of the equation. And so taking responsibility for, for your own pleasure, if that makes sense. I got a meeting in captivity is a good book that touches on some of that,

that stuff. Gotcha. Thank you. Thank you much,

so much, Nick, this has been a really great conversation, I've learned a ton. And as somebody who's single and who's found great men in the past, every now and again, I get really down thinking there are no more great men out there. It's encouraging to know that there are at least a few who is a therapist, who are trying to get in touch with their vulnerable selves and find their path forward just like me. So thank you very much for some, some helpful words for me. And I really appreciate you being on our show today.

Just for the record, it wasn't for us it was for a friend or asking for a friend. Oh

yes, I love that. I get a lot of therapy. This friend of mine wants to know. Yeah. Well, so great being with you, too. Yeah. And yes, there are good guys out there who are great fit great partners, in their bodies, emotionally intelligent, and like ready to dig in and do the hard work. They really are. Wonderful. Thank you.

All right. Thank you. Thanks.

Bye bye. You go.